Hi everyone, welcome to potluck food talks. I'm here with Phil aka Sleepy Boy. Why do
you have that nickname today? Because I was Sleepy Boy, man. I've been working in a busy
kitchen, you know, and it's nine o'clock in the morning. We've been trying to connect
my fucking microphone for the past half hour. And I'm a sleepy, sleepy boy. Leave me alone.
So how has it been the last weeks? Have you cooked or eaten anything interesting? Yeah,
I mean, I cooked loads of shit. I mean, last week was super busy. It's September, it's high season
here in Berlin, you know, it's like gallery weekend and Berlin marathon. And so restaurant
and hotel is super busy. Crazy, crazy busy. That's why I'm such a sleepy boy. But yeah,
we've been cooking. We've been cooking a lot of really nice stuff. I haven't gone out to eat
anywhere. And at home, I've been living like a fucking like some hermits. After you know,
the zombie apocalypse breaks out, doesn't leave his bunker, just kind of eating lentil soup every day.
Yeah. But at the at the restaurant, there's been loads of nice stuff going on. My sushi,
Eduardo, he made this super amazing anchovy butter pasta, where he just made like an ad,
he just like dissolved anchovies in butter, and then added like linguine, fresh linguine to it
and made like a nice Monte Carlo sort of emulsion with like a dot pod is fine. That's like, okay,
straightforward. It was delicious, you know, with a little bit of colatura di alici. So a little bit
of anchovy garam and loads of chopped parsley. And we were trying it and we're sort of like,
Yeah, well, this is very tasty. It's very full on. But then we had the idea to put we were like,
hey, how about we add some lemon, you know, which is also fine. But then instead of just like adding
juice or skin, we cut like little cubes of lemon like little segments, but with the skin and the
flesh attached, so that you get like little bites of like the skin, which a lot of people don't do,
they don't use citrus fruit like with the like that, you know, like I saw it in Thai cooking also,
where they just kind of dice a line with the skin and you get like little pockets of sort of like
chewing on lemon skin. And that made the dish like on another level. It was like super, super nice.
That's amazing. I did something that has something in common with what you just said,
even though it's something completely different. I made the green mango salad, you know,
I found some green mangoes here at the market near my apartment. Oh, nice. And I had an anchovy
garam that I bought from the Fisherman Guild here in San Sebastian, which is amazing.
And I did it with the wild rose vinegar we got from Noma as a souvenir. So I did a mix
of anchovy garam and rose vinegar for my green mango salad. And it was incredible, man. It was
really, really nice. That sounds really good. Yeah, the wild rose vinegar, I haven't used it
yet because I like, I opened it when I came home and I smelled it and I even like, I took like a
sip of it. And then with some herbs and some cubes of roasted pork belly, it was incredible.
It was just like super, super. Oh, wow. Yeah, that sounds really, really good. Are you gonna,
is that one of the dishes you're gonna make at the pop-up when we go to San Sebastian?
Ah, yeah, we have an important announcement. We don't have a date yet. We're working on the menu
and we're going to make a pop-up in San Sebastian somewhere, sometime in the near future. So if
you're interested, you can join the waitlist in the link that is going to be next to the episode,
kind of putting next to the episode with something that people can join a waitlist. And,
oh wow, I didn't know it was so serious. We already have a venue and we're going to start
working on, it's probably going to be, I would say like the topic would be something like
Japanese profanity, something like that, no? Like, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like there's things that offend
different cultures among them, the Japanese, and at the same time honor them. So like both things
at the same time. That is spoken like, true Tim Raue. Yeah, no, absolutely. Like it's gonna,
I'm super excited. We don't have a date yet, as you just said, but I think it's just gonna be
really nice food and just fun, fun times. So we get some nice wine in there. Yeah. And also about
eating, dude, I found so far my favorite Chinese restaurant in Europe. Wow. Is this place, there's
like this Chinatown in Barcelona near the Ag de Triomphe from Barcelona. A lot of people, when
you say, ah, the Chinese of the Ag de Triomphe, that there are like a few Chinese there and
everybody's talking about a different one. The one I'm talking about, it's called Changi. And it has
everything that a Chinese restaurant needs to have. You know, like it's like, it has this pirate ship
feeling. All the waitresses are moody and they never smile and they're rude to you. And then when
you sit down, they give you this super long menu they used to have on the back, on the last page.
Desserts and other things. And there were desserts and seafood and everything on the last page.
And yeah, like everything mixed and then the waitress would come and she would give you like
a piece of paper and pen and tell you, write what you want to eat. Yeah. Don't talk to me.
So you have to do your order yourself and you better not mess with them. I also heard stories
that there was this group and someone tried to play really smart. He was like, no, this is not
what I ordered. And the waitress was like, yes, that's what you ordered. And he was, no, no, no,
it wasn't. And she took the plate and he left without eating for the whole dinner. He didn't
get anything. Wow. I love how Chinese restaurants have this like thing where we kind of, like you
say, it's sort of like, oh, it has everything a Chinese restaurant needs, like angry waitresses.
And I'm kind of like, it is like that, isn't it? And it's kind of like this weird,
or like the long menu. It's a weird sort of like half masochist experience going to a Chinese
restaurant like that as a non-Chinese person, because you just get treated so strangely.
Like you get treated so badly. Then you sit down, you get this long menu, you're so confused.
You're like, what the fuck is going on? But part of this feeling is like the kind of excitement of
going to this restaurant. And everything is like chaotic. You know, like, like this is where
numbered, but they were not in order. You know, the word is front of numbers, one after the other.
As if somebody said, what dishes do we have on the menu? You just say the first thing that comes to
your head. You say a three digit random number and put it next to the previous one. And I ordered
like a super nice over jeans with minced meat. That was amazing. Then I had like this pieces of like
fried sheets of meat that felt like kind of like a schnitzel, but without the bread. Okay. Homemade
noodles. Like we had like six different dishes and everything was over the top, man. Everything
was super, super, super good. And then at the end we said, let's order some things to take away
because we needed to eat something on the next day. And then we had to catch like a, like a plane
super early. So they say, okay, now you need to wait. And then we weren't as important anymore
because we didn't have a table. We were on the wait line of people taking delivery or take away.
Yeah. So like, like our, our social class went like below the previous going to outside and then
outside there was like this. It felt like a, like a concert. It was half Chinese people, half of the
crowd. And the other half were like super young people because it's so cheap. So you would see
like there were like at least 20 people queuing outside to get in and you know, like, like they
were all like the head waitress was super stressed, you know, like giving everybody paper and pen to
write their own orders and giving them menus so they could like pre-order everything and then
mess with her. And she was running back and forth. And what I got an absolute mess. And the food was
amazing. It was incredible. All I want in life. It sounds really fun. That sounds really fun. I
haven't been to a restaurant like that in a while. Like I think Chinese restaurants, like good Chinese
restaurants, they're by far one of the things that I most feel like when I'm off, you know, it's,
it's just such a fun way of eating, you know, it's just really fun food. Yeah. Another really
standout thing that that we cooked these past few weeks, which really stood out was I just wanted
to tell you, because I feel like you'd like it. We had this like we had this byproduct in the kitchen,
just like we were roasting these cherry tomatoes with like we were marinating these like really
nice cherry tomatoes. Cherry tomatoes always sounds kind of shit, but these must feel like super nice,
like super sweet and bad. And we were marinating them with like herbs and garlic and loads of olive
oil. And then we were like roasting them in the oven just quickly. So the skin blisters up, right?
But then we had all this like juice that was dropping down from the tomatoes and we didn't
want to waste it. So one of my chefs, he was like, why don't we poach some fish in it? You know,
just like, oh, that sounds good. It's like half olive oil, half insane, salty, acidic tomato juice
and herbs and garlic and stuff. And he took some sea bass and like slow poached it in this liquid
and then served it with the liquid like on a plate. And I was like, man, this is like super flaky,
fatty sea bass fillets, no skin, right? No color or anything. And it's like mega umami.
You know how in like old French, like fine dining, sometimes they mix like say like meat and fish,
like for example, this like John Dory cooked in veal jus or something like that, or like a red
mullet with a duck consomme, you know, that kind of stuff. And it felt like that because you had
this like, you know, the fish was flavoring the tomato juice and wow, man, it's insane.
Okay, okay. Sounds great. That's super nice. So we wanted to talk about Anthony Bourdain's article,
right? Yeah. Have you read the article recently? Not super recently, but of course, I think,
I think everybody's read it, you know? Yeah, like the article first article that made
Anthony Bourdain known, uh, Don Ede before reading this, that was published on the New Yorker in 1999.
And I just recently read it and I thought it would be fun to do like a, like not a review, but uh,
kind of like, uh, checking what of the things he says in the article are still valid today,
because he talks about a lot of, uh, industry trade secrets about how it's supposed to be
in restaurants and how people is and how, uh, like the logistics of restaurants work and, and how
a well-informed diners go, go out and the opposite, like what tourists do, that uninformed tourists
do when they go out having dinner. So like, I don't know what, what are your general impressions
of the article if you think about it like nowadays? Um, I mean, it's, uh, it's of course, like it's
like it's iconic. I mean, to start with, right? It's an absolutely iconic article. And it was
like groundbreaking that somebody talks about gastronomy in that way, especially through Tony's
very particular view, right? Because what I always loved about him was that, you know, for example,
Tony's view is not the same as let's say Eric Rappert's view, right? The two have a very different
sort of background and a very different outlook. I feel like Tony, it's kind of like, he's like,
sort of like, yeah, when he's saying kind of, because in the article, he's kind of like, yeah,
you know, cooking and not cooking, but gastronomy is the science of pain, you know.
That's so funny. Like professional cooks are like this subculture of masochistic stoics that obey
despotic leaders. I mean, that's so funny. Yeah, it's super funny. And it's like, I love that
because, you know, what often gets portrayed also nowadays is the kind of glamorous, right? It's
like the Michelin star and the fine dining and this and that, but the sort of like everyday,
day to day cooking life of like people. It didn't, apart from that, it didn't used to be how it is
nowadays, you know, nowadays you have, you know, just like very regular kitchens that run in a nice
way, you know. But back then, you know, it was this like very cast away, almost like a secret
society, you know. I mean, I remember when I started cooking, sometimes it would feel like,
you know, you were not part of like society really, because you were so, you know, and like telling
people that you were a chef, people were sort of like, nobody understood what it meant. They were
sort of like, oh, okay, you cook food. Okay, great. Yeah. Yeah. And also I think he was the first one
that changed this view that you would expect to walk into a fine dining kitchen and finally like
well-educated French chefs. And that's not the case at all. Like that French dishes were being
cooked by Ecuadorians or Poles or, you know, like people from all over the world. Like usually
migrants of a low income immigrants, that is not usually what you're expecting. I also had that
feeling in the first restaurant where I worked. I remember those were all gangsters in that kitchen,
you know, and then you would see them doing like this delicate French desserts. And that contrast
really was, you know, impressive to me. Why do you think that is honestly? Like, why do you think
there is this weird dichotomy in kitchens? I mean, nowadays it's much more diverse,
it's much more things, but like, you know, because it was like that when we started, right? It was
like, it was like a pirate ship. Sometimes I remember kitchens where I thought that if I look
at somebody wrong, I'm going to get a fucking meat fork stuck in my thigh, you know? And then at the
same time you do this, you do this like emotional, you know, job where you have to pour a lot of
yourself into it. You have to have a lot of sensibility, right? Yeah, I guess it has to do
with exactly with that. Like, I mean, it's like a craft, craftsman's job or like an artsy thing.
So like people that get into this profession, they're usually creatives, people that want to
do things with their hands or with their minds, that create something. And people that have that
push to do that are usually very chaotic people, you know? Artists in general are not like
mathematicians in contrast, you know? And so it's people that move themselves into art scenes or
this kind of cultural scenes that are usually where you find like drugs and party and lots of
these things. And I think it's very connected. That's just my opinion. I guess so. Then together
paired with the fact that it's a lot of physical labor, no? It's like a mixture of you need to be
a little bit crazy, a little bit chaotic, but you also need to be kind of tough, you know? So, yeah.
There is a partner in the article that I think is very funny where he talks about saving food
scraps for people that ask well done steak. So it's like, what about this last piece of puree?
Should we throw it away? No, no, no. Save it for someone who asks for a well done.
When someone asks for a well done, he gets all this shitty crap because they want nothing. They
don't know how to eat, you know? Also, there is a lot in that. And like this snobiety of chefs
knowing how to properly eat, even though you can be a gangster, you can be a whatever, but you know
how to properly cook and properly eat and you have a sensitivity towards that and you really
underappreciate that you really don't like people not having that, you know? Not understanding that
and also being like, you know, like patronizer or condescending asking you stuff that you
don't even understand. And you get to see that quite a lot, actually. Yeah, quite a lot, especially
especially in the media that Tony put out, you know? And it's kind of funny if you think about
it because he's kind of like, oh yeah, you know, like chefs are these like downcasts, blah, blah,
blah, but at the same time, the highest level of elitism and snobiety, you know? Yeah, exactly.
It's sort of like, yeah, you know, chefs are underappreciated, but at the same time,
it's like really devaluing the customer in a way. But have you seen these kind of scenes of
people messing with bad diners? Yeah, of course, of course. And I mean, it's like, I get it,
I get it in a way because, you know, you're there, you know, like 10 hours, 12 hours, whatever,
and you're like really, if you're a serious chef, then you're working really hard to get to an end
result. And it all, because basically you're starting fresh every day and your entire work day
accumulates to this moment where you're putting food on the plate and you want it to be as nice
as possible. And then when somebody takes that decision out of your hands, it feels very
frustrating because you're like, I just spent all this time preparing for this moment. And now you're
making a decision that is kind of not enabling me to do the end result that I wanted. It feels like
premature ejaculation, you know, you're not like, you're like, well, fuck, this was so awful.
Yeah, like I remember a few places where I would see, you know, throwing steaks into the fryer,
like here you go, now you have it well done motherfucker. Or I remember once also like,
I was like, what is this in the microwave? And there was this piece of meat like super overcooked
and the sous chef came and like, ah, leave it. Just spinning and spinning.
And it was for someone who asked, there's steak well done. Honestly, I've done it before and I
want to defend it because it's like, man, you order your steak well done. And then it, but it's not
just that, right? It's like, I want my steak well done, but why isn't it here in 10 minutes? You
know? And so it's kind of like, well, you don't want to let the customer wait. But depending on
how you meet this cut, it takes a fucking long time until the center of that meat is cooked,
you know? So I often, you know, when we just come back, I just like take it. I don't know,
I slice it, I make some cuts so that the whatever, and then I just like wang it in the oven and just
let it cook through. It makes no difference. If you eat just, if you eat your meat well done,
it makes zero difference. Yeah. Yeah. I've also seen like terrorist people being like that with
customers. I was recently in a place with a famous cheesecake and I was queuing and there was like a
lot of people queuing also for the cheesecake. And then at some point there was this lady,
like an Asian lady, and she was doing something you should never do in a place like this. She
would order something and she would get it. She would order the next thing and she would get it.
At some point the barman said, Hey, do you speak English? You? Okay. Tell her to order everything
at the same time, to not fuck around ordering everything like in batches. And I said everything
at the same time. And she was like, yes, yes, same time, same time. And then she did it again.
She had like three drinks, something else, something else. And the guy, what else do you want?
That she was like cheesecake, two portions. And he took two cheesecakes that he had there,
like pre-portioned. And you could see they had been there for a while, completely dry. Here you go.
Now go, go, go, go. Yeah. Well, she got a warning, you know, it's not like she wasn't warned. Yeah.
Absolutely. And yeah, you know, sort of like stuff like, like how he talks about things that people
didn't really think about, like the super iconic kind of like, Hey, why do you think there's a fish
special on at the weekend? You know? And I think for a lot of people, that was a shock, you know,
the people sort of like, what do you mean? I thought it was just like a special dish that people make.
And it's kind of like, well, no, it's, it's the stuff that you need to get rid of. That's why it's
a special. Yeah. It's like if you, if you eat the fish, if you eat the bouillabaisse on a Monday,
that's on a special offer, you know? Now there are like this digital menus where they do that
automatically. Like they dynamize prices. Like if the restaurant is completely full, the prices will
go a little bit down and a little bit up. And if it's completely empty, they would go, the prices
will go a little bit down, like just subtle. And that already plays that like, you know, more
incomes at the end of the month, but you can also program this kind of menus to, to get rid of the
thing you want to get rid of the kitchen. Like I have this last two steaks or whatever, and it will
be shown first. So when people go, because on this, you can see it on your phone or on a tablet,
it will be like the first thing. And these are already approved Amazon tactics to sell more,
but just on the digital domain. That's crazy. That's crazy. Do you think that's going to take
a hold? Do you think that's going to be like a popular thing for people to do? I mean, that works
and it works in specific restaurants and specific cities, you know, because I would say most people
prefer either paper or a waiter saying things, but of course there are restaurants that, you know,
like, I don't know, like a big grill house with 300 people that you have to, you have no option,
but to scan your QR and what, and order through the app and these kinds of things for those
concepts, of course. Yeah, no, absolutely. It's an interesting idea. I'm actually kind of, you know,
like when looking at the article again, a lot of things that he describes, because when did the
article come out? Let me check. 1999. 1999. That's crazy. And you know, this is sort of like stuff
that he says, it's still kind of true now. And it kind of makes me think about, you know, how,
how little restaurants have changed over the year. Like he's saying like, oh yeah, generally speaking,
the good stuff comes in on Tuesday. The seafood is fresh. The supplier of prepared food is new.
And the chef presumably is relaxed after his day off. Most chefs don't work on Monday. Yeah. Yeah,
that's exactly right. And it's like, yeah, it's honestly, that's exactly what it is. Yeah, exactly.
And on Tuesday you're fresh and relaxed and you're going to put extra care in you and what you're
doing, you know, like not on Sunday, last minute of service. I mean, I remember I was also recently
in a restaurant in Barcelona and they were, it was their last day before holidays. You know,
they were closing the whole restaurant with the whole staff. And you know, I was like asking to
ask like an extra dessert and they told me, no, fuck off. Yeah, I get it. And I understood it. I
was like, okay, I get it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I know. I know. I know. Yeah. There's also an interesting
thing that I think is so true as many of the things that Tony talks about, uh, brunch disdain.
Like every, right? Like every respectable chef hates brunches. That's another- Everybody hates
brunches. That's another thing that, uh, like restaurant owners do thinking it's a good idea
and it's fun for them and their friends. But most chefs hate doing it because you have to do like
a specific prep for usually only one day a week. Like the places I've worked with brunch, it would
be like a Sunday and then you had to come for, to cook breakfast on a Sunday, uh, do like an extra
prep at the end of the day. It usually wasn't like a good business. It's not that they would make like
a, like a good income with that. It is usually like, like, uh, uh, something let's try this,
if it works. And it usually never works unless it's a specific concept for brunches, like a coffee
shop that specializes on that. But a restaurant that wants to do brunch once a week, it's just
a bad idea. It's just bad for businesses, but for the people- It's a terrible idea. Like I, I do like
going for brunch if the concept is right. And if it's like, but I, you know, I have never had a
good brunch. I'm sure they are out there, but the good brunches that I've had is like you say,
is going to like a restaurant that does breakfast and brunch, right? And then they close at fucking
five o'clock in the afternoon, you know, and that's it. But like you say, you know, if,
if you're a restaurant owner and you come to your team and say, Hey, let's do brunch on Sundays.
And you're like, man, like, oh yeah, it's just one day a week. It's like, yeah, that's exactly the
thing. It's kind of like you do the fucking prep for this whole thing or an unspecified amount of
people for one day apart from like all the other shit, you know, and then you just like make like
a completely new menu for like one day. So then not use it the rest of the week. It's just demoralizing.
Absolutely. Yeah. It's super, super stupid. And yeah, I mean, there's this one brunch place here
in Berlin, which is very nice called Annaliese. And they like, I really liked them because they
have like untraditional lunch dishes. I've got this really nice breakfast sandwich with these like,
like sausage patties, super delicious. They've got really nice pancakes and stuff like that.
They've got really good salads and that's fun. Yeah. Like here we have Simona Cafe here in San
Sebastian. Same, same like super nice sandwiches, like badass sandwiches, you know, like creative
sandwiches and really heavy things with, you know, like with a poached egg on top or like sausages,
bacon, avocado, you name it, like all sorts of different combinations with nice bread,
super good coffee. Yeah, exactly. Those sort of places I really like. And I also, I like, actually,
I wouldn't mind working in a place like that. Like if you work in a place like that doing brunch,
you know, that's fine. But like, I really like what Tony wrote in this article, like about,
about brunches is because I've like recently experienced it also is sort of like, oh yeah,
you know, if you ask for, what did he say? He's talking about egg white omelets. It's like, yeah,
he had nothing to moralize as an aspiring Escoffier faster than requiring him to cook egg white
omelets or eggs with easy, over easy with bacon. Yeah. And it's like, yeah, man, omelets, honestly,
this is like, this is where you cross the line, right? This is really where you, you take a step
too far as a customer because you know, customers came, blah, blah, blah, whatever bullshit. And
with all, you know, wanting to, you know, to fulfill people's wishes. They want their meat
cooked like this. They want their meat cooked like that. They won't don't want their fish medium rare.
Okay. That's all fine. But when you make unreasonable, like, have you ever tried you who
orders an egg white omelet? Have you ever tried to make an egg white omelet? Like it actually just
defies what an omelet is. You can't make a nice omelet just with egg whites. It doesn't work.
I just know egg white omelets from Seinfeld's episode where they make jokes about it. I've
never tried it nor cook it. And I don't think it's a good idea. Actually. It's not a good idea at all.
It's like, it's a, it's a loose, loose situation. If you want to eat egg whites, eat them like
scrambled or whatever, you know, but don't make a cook, try to make something out of something that
doesn't isn't made for that. You know, like he, he will have to like whisk the egg whites, pour them
in sort of carefully fold them. So it kind of resembles an omelet has nothing to do with an
omelet. Right. So I think really, if you order egg white omelets, like just don't, you know, like
those sort of people, they should just get a slap. The chef is the chef is should really in an idea
world be allowed to go outside and be sort of like, did you order it? Okay. I'm going to make it for
you, but yeah, I also love the, the part where he says, uh, as a chef, you have to be a mom and dad,
a sergeant, a detective, a psychiatrist, a psychiatrist, a priest. Uh, you have to take
care of your crew of chefs who are hooligans, criminals from, you know, like smart suppliers
that want to take advantage of you. Foolish owners that want to take like crazy strategies to make
more money, like a live cover, free shrimp, you're less bronze.
Yes. Yeah. No, I absolutely agree. You know, that's what makes it so hard. You know,
cooking is one thing, but, uh, you know, taking care of people is a completely different thing.
That's, I think definitely the most, the most difficult and the most important thing in cooking
and needing a kitchen. There is something I think that has really changed since you wrote this
article and you can agree with it or not, you can like it or not, but it does have changed and is a
social perception towards vegans and vegetarians. Back then in 99, you could afford not having
vegetarian or vegan options and fuck off, go somewhere else. Nowadays you can't afford that.
You have to have options for vegans and vegetarians and that that's really like a social
change since then. But I think it's so funny how he diminishes them.
Yeah. I mean, that's, that's just like his attitude. I think, you know, I mean, there's nothing wrong
with being vegetarian or, you know, I mean, vegan is pretty heavy, like cooking for a vegan is pretty
tricky. Uh, vegetarian is no problem usually, you know, like vegetarian is fine, but vegan is kind of
hard. He says it's a Hezbollah faction, enemies of everything that's good and decent in the human
spirit.