Hi everyone, welcome to Pot Luck Food Talks.
Today I'm here with my friend, wait a second.
Bless you.
I'm here with Phil Walther and I'm Eric Eichstetter and today we're going to talk about pop-up restaurants.
Amazing.
Well, Phil, you have like a prize, you won like best pop-up in London, something like that, back in the days.
Oh, Eric, Eric, that you start off, you know, giving me clout about my few achievements in life.
That's really what a friend does.
Yes, I did win a prize for a pop-up in London.
I did win a prize.
Yes, I did.
I was planning how I would lead up to that, so I didn't have to say it, you know, so it wouldn't be so awkward for me to be like, oh, yeah, by the way.
So thank you.
Yeah, I did.
I had a pop-up with my partner at the time, Katie, and it ran for quite a while.
And at the end we received an award for best vegetable chefs of the year in London or the UK, I suppose.
What year was this?
Like 2015, 2014, something like that.
I think it was 2015, yeah, which is crazy because 2014 I was still starting in Tokyo.
Okay, wow.
And it feels like between those two things, a lot of stuff happened, you know.
Yeah, absolutely.
Well, let's start with the beginning.
What is a pop-up?
How would you define it?
What's the difference between a pop-up and an event and a catering?
Yeah, well, that's a good question, actually.
I'm not sure I have it super defined for myself.
In my understanding, a pop-up is basically a little makeshift restaurant kitchen that you build in a space where – because you can do an event, right,
but a pop-up is usually like a more ongoing thing.
I mean, you pop up somewhere.
Often you rent a space that already exists and you utilize that space for a limited amount of time and do what you want,
which is a great way of, you know, especially young people early in their career to do their first moves in doing something of their own
without having to have a huge financial commitment or anything like that.
I think pop-ups are really, really great for developing chefs.
Yeah, exactly.
My understanding is exactly you crash into a space.
It could be a running restaurant on their day off.
It could be a food truck on their day off.
It could be like a venue that works for events, whatever.
And yeah, you build your restaurant concept into it.
It could be for proving a concept, just to make some extra money, just to create an audience for your concept.
It could have like completely different approaches.
Yes.
But I guess that's basically what it is.
Yeah.
And what was your case in London?
What was the venue?
What was the goal?
What did you serve?
What happened there?
It was a really great project.
I look back at it with a lot of heartfelt, like full feelings because it was both very, very tough and very rewarding at the same time.
And I learned a lot.
I was very young.
I was, I think, 23.
And I learned so much about a lot of stuff that I might or might not go into right now.
And I don't really remember how it started, to be honest with you.
I was living with my partner, my girlfriend at the time, Katie, who was also a chef, who is also a chef, one of the best chefs that I know.
And we had worked in the same place, but then we weren't working in the same place.
And this idea just kind of came up.
And we literally, like in terms of finding a venue, we were sort of like, hey, it would be cool to do something like a couple of days a week or whatever.
And we just approached a few places that were near us.
So when you're looking for a venue for a pop up, all right, it's like I think people overthink it.
Literally what we did, we said, hey, what are places near us that are nice, that have like a little bit of a vibe, you know, and that have a time slot?
Where they're not operating, you know, in the sense that they're not prepping, they're not open fully for customers.
And in our case, this was a coffee shop in Brixton, very close to where we were living in London, in South London, in Brixton, called F Mondays, a really, really great coffee shop.
Anybody who's been to Brixton will probably know it.
It's pretty, it's very well known.
And then it was tiny, you know, and that like, I think maybe 15 seats.
It didn't have a kitchen, definitely not back then.
I don't know what it looks like now.
And we approached them and we said, hey, look, we're these two chefs and we'd like to rent a space.
How much would it cost?
And they said, hey, that's a cool idea.
And we just came up with it.
The idea was that also because we had very like produce focused chefs that we were always going for a walk.
And in Brixton, you have Brixton Park and you have a big community garden there.
That's, you know, as it says, it's like run by the community, it's like a volunteer program, but they did it in a really lovely way.
It was like a big wild garden with like fruit trees and vegetables and wild flowers and stuff like that.
And we went to the guy, we said, hey, we want to buy a little bit of produce from you, but we want to do it four days a week.
And we want to come every morning and kind of like ask you what is the best that very day.
And we walk through, we harvest the stuff and then we go back to the restaurant and cook it.
So that was the whole idea that we do like a tasting menu based on like super hyper regionality and super hyper seasonality.
Right. It's kind of like that day right around the corner.
Sounds super romantic.
Yeah.
Like from a gastronomic perspective, like, yeah, going directly to the producer, getting only the best of the best of the day and cooking just based on that.
Incredible.
Yes, absolutely. Like talking about it now, I'm kind of like, wow, that was a really cool idea, you know, like, and it's just like, we didn't think about it a lot.
You know, it's not like we made this concept and stuff.
We just kind of came up with it like really randomly and we just kind of went like, you know what?
Fuck it. Let's just go for it.
The thing is though, that's what you also learn very quickly and what I didn't do at that time at all is you start thinking about what things cost and what things that you sell me to cost.
So that's where the whole romanticism goes to hell basically.
Yeah, yeah, kind of. I mean, it was a mixture of things. It was very tough actually because we were doing all the prep in our living room kitchen.
All right. And in the beginning, we were only cooking for like 15 people.
So that was fine.
Right. The venue didn't have any kitchen whatsoever.
The venue had, and this is also a cool thing, like if I remember back to it, it's fucking crazy.
It had one induction, like a IKEA induction, right?
It had a panini grill where I have discovered that a panini grill is a very, very versatile tool, cooking tool.
I'm a big fan of the panini grills.
Why? I want to know more about that.
Well, like you just figure out things that you can do with a panini grill.
Panini grill, great to sear meat, great to put a spring onions, you know, oiled, salted, put in a panini grill, press down, you know, super nice.
It's perfect, you know, it's like one of those grill pans.
Yeah, yeah.
But anyway, it had this tiny window into the backyard.
And so what we did is we took a jerk grill.
Anybody who doesn't know, we do Brixton, lots of jerk chicken around.
We bought this used jerk grill, which is basically just a barrel, sewed in half, right, on a stand.
And we filled that with charcoal and put that in front of the window so that we could cook from inside the kitchen over charcoal.
The problem was that in front of the window was sort of like prison bars, right?
So we were cooking everything on like these little skewers, these like kushi yaki kind of sort of like Japanese skewers.
And one person had to like grill outside and then hand it through the bars kind of sideways.
The other person would take it and the other person would run around back into the kitchen.
It was hilarious. It was really hilarious.
Yeah, it sounds like like again, like a romantic prison break story.
Yeah. And you know, one thing I also learned there, I was very young and I had already worked in some very good places.
And what I learned there is that as a yum chef, you learn how to replicate, but you don't necessarily learn how to make your own dishes.
I found out very quickly that the ideas that I had in my head, when I put them from pen and paper to food on a plate,
they didn't quite make sense. It didn't quite work out.
You know, like I started cooking the first couple of dishes. I was like, oh yeah, you know, this and that and blah.
And then I tasted it was like this bullshit. Like this is not good at all.
Because I knew what good food was, right? But like I wanted to not copy anything that I knew.
I wanted to just make something of my own.
And so I stayed away from all sort of technique and recipes that I've used before, which is also a super nice approach, by the way.
Yeah, yeah, I guess so. Yeah, I'm kind of getting away from that.
I'm kind of embracing using things that I've learned in other places nowadays in like a different way.
You know what I mean? Before I was too arrogant.
I mean, also, I mean, there are no rules, you know, like in any case, I think it's pretty lame.
These kind of chefs that they have this recipe books from traveling from one restaurant to the other,
and then they open a place and what they do is just execute all the things that they got on their way, you know, like totally.
And that's not nice. Absolutely.
Yeah, I think I think cooking is such a beautiful, like natural progression.
If you take like a recipe that you have from somewhere else and you put it in a different context, you know, like you're like, hey, I have this thing.
Like, I don't know, you know, I have this great recipe from a Pippian sauce that a friend of mine showed me when I was in Mexico.
And just the other day, like a couple of weeks ago, I was like, man, I really like I really like that sauce.
I was really nice, but I don't want to. I can't.
And I don't want to get all these Mexican ingredients.
How can I make this sauce with this approach with this recipe, but with the ingredients that I have?
And I made like a pistachio and pumpkin seed Pippian with like, you know, just like normal ingredients that I have.
And it turned out fucking delicious.
Like nothing like a Mexican Pippian, but it's like a sort of nutty pistachio spice, satay sauce, you know, for like grilled beef.
That's super nice.
Well, but I think that's something else.
Like stealing something, but borrowing is something else, you know, like borrowing a recipe from somewhere, a tradition or a restaurant or whatever, and make it your own.
You know, like really, you know, making a variation that is your own thing. And that's the point.
That's so easy to do that.
Why would you replicate something one to one, like taking someone else's children's picture and put it in your living room?
You know what I mean?
That is an intense comparison.
Yeah, but I get your point.
Absolutely.
Yes.
And yeah, just to quickly sum up, because I don't want to babble too long about my own pop up, you know, because I'm not an egomaniac.
It was really cool.
We got like cool people in, you know, especially that Katie knew like Matt Arbe, the co-owner and head chef of Gordon Ramsay came into Yeats and stuff.
And he sent some people our way.
And yeah, it was really cool.
And suddenly we got approached by this guy and we got a different venue.
It was also a coffee shop, but with like this big space in the back where there were like these huge wooden tables, two like long wooden tables hanging from the ceiling.
And suddenly we could do 40 people at the same time instead of 15.
And suddenly we had a little kitchen.
We still kept the barbecue because like open fire cooking was a whole thing.
And we put the barbecue out back and we cooked the same tasting menu for everybody at the same time, kind of Fabriken style, you know.
But just the two of us for 40 people, like six to eight courses, which was also a challenge in getting the produce in, right.
And suddenly we had to hire a front of house, you know, suddenly we had to have a wine.
Like very, very valuable experience as a young chef to have this sort of makeshift restaurant experience, you know.
Suddenly you have to manage things.
Suddenly you have people, you know, like suddenly you have journalists coming in.
It was the first experience for me cooking for journalists, you know.
And so I can say from my own experience, you know, fucking like if you're thinking about it, just fucking do it, you know.
It doesn't have to be for me.
Like for us, it was a long time.
It was a couple of months that we did it, which for a pop-up is quite long.
Do it for a weekend, you know, go to your local cafe.
That's kind of cool and say, hey, how much would you charge me if I like did two evenings here, you know, four hours each with like setting up, feeding people, wrapping up, you know, just give it a go.
But don't be like me and calculate it a little bit better.
But before we go on to other pop-ups, how did this recognition came?
Was it a journalist?
Oh, thank you for bringing it up again, Eric.
I had almost forgotten.
So we got approached on Instagram.
We got nominated for this award, the YBF, the Young British Foodie Award.
And that was also a very cool experience.
So I was like, okay, what is this?
And it was basically they do have several awards like Chef of the Year.
They have different categories.
You know, we were falling into the vegetable category because we were so veg-focused.
And they said, hey, you're nominated.
Congratulations.
And I was like, okay, cool.
So what does that entail?
And they say, well, the finalists in your category, they have to come to Terra, which was Simon Robbins' three Michelin star restaurant in London at the time,
and have to cook or present something to the judges, the judges being Claude Bozzi and Simon Rogan.
Anybody who knows a little bit about Michelin star chefs knows that this is the fucking creme de la creme of chefs.
I mean, Claude Bozzi, fucking legend, you know, one of them was amazing.
Like for me, one of the most interesting chefs, I am a lot of style.
Simon Rogan also, you know, obviously super regional, seasonal, kind of like, you know, the British René Rizepi kind of sort of way.
And I went into Claridge's, you know, also one of the most iconic hotels in London.
And I just brought like loads of shit.
And I mean, to be fair to Katie and I, we fucking slayed it, man.
We absolutely said it because we were sort of like, all right, we're going to we're going to cook for them.
Okay, cool. We're going to make 12 courses.
We just fucking we just absolutely killed it.
And we made all sorts of shit like, you know, actually one of the dishes that I made, it was you remember the poached pear with potato puree and beans from Hoffman?
Of course. Yeah. Yeah.
I made a version of that with the with the dried mint and fennel green salad and stuff like that.
And they were amazed.
That was a crazy dish. Yeah. Super nice dish.
Yeah, that's one of my favorite Hoffman dishes for sure.
And yeah, everything vegetable, everything, you know, this that I made them sort of like beetroot madeleines.
I made them like a thick leaf and like herbal infusion and like this little gaiwan cups.
And yeah, just I made them like little stuff that's like super in trend now, like this little herb bouquets to like be dragged through like a dip and eaten.
And we really went all out.
And we also marketed it pretty well because like I I sent them all these dishes and then I walked into their like little private dining room, whatever, eating.
And they and I put a picture, a framed picture of the gardener on the table and I was like, yeah, this is like he's the main guy, you know.
Oh, dirty play.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Smart play.
Yeah. And yeah, it was it was a very proud moment for me.
I remember Claude Bosse like eating this and I was telling like the whole story and he was like, yeah, okay.
Yeah. He looked at me and he was like, how old are you again?
And I was like, I'm 23.
And he was like, damn.
And I was like, yes.
Yeah, I saw that same thing many times with you, but you were like 18 back then.
Everybody was like, how old are you?
18?
Fuck you, man.
Fuck this guy.
Fuck him.
Yeah.
Very, very, very proud moment.
I was like really I was so proud of us, honestly, because it was really tough, especially when we went to cooking for fun.
We went to cooking for 40 people, prepping everything in our living room, putting it in boxes, taking a cab to the venue, unloading everything, setting up.
Jesus fucking Christ.
Can't believe we did that, honestly.
Couldn't have done it without Katie Unislip.
Have you ever done a pop-up?
No, no, no, I haven't.
Really?
To be honest, like I've been to tweet at pop-ups more like a dozen of times at least.
Yeah.
I've never organized one myself probably because I've never been planning to open a restaurant or something.
Well, what we did once, but that wasn't a pop-up.
We did like this private dinner that was more than anything else to make a video for a restaurant we wanted to open than Berlin.
So we crashed into a restaurant and we made this dinner, but that was the thing like of one day.
But it was kind of like, yeah, going into a restaurant that is already working on their day off and doing like a private dinner there.
But yeah, that's the nearest thing.
It was also to test that concept.
Yeah, nice.
But I mean, like there are a few things that come to my mind.
If we were going to talk about pop-ups.
First is Mission Chinese Food.
Oh yeah.
I got really inspired when I saw this guy's Anthony Min talk at MAD Symposium in Copenhagen where he was telling the story.
I found it to be so exciting.
He and his partner, what's the name?
Danny Bowen, the chef of Mission Chinese Food.
They both got into, I think they first started doing this Chinese, like crazy experimental Chinese dinners in a Chinese restaurant.
On their day off.
So the restaurant was closed.
They would use the space and cook obscure, strange Chinese recipes you wouldn't find in any Chinese restaurant in the States.
They would serve that like crazy noodle styles, crazy dishes, these kind of things.
Sounds like, oh, get togethers when we were working together, honestly.
Yeah, exactly.
And then the thing got so successful that there was a point that they started cooking every day of the week.
And the Chinese restaurant was still working and they were still sending deliveries, home deliveries.
And this guy were cooking a complete different concept in there.
Imagine.
And they also started like doing crazy stuff, like doing homages to other chefs or like what they would do.
Imagine like a dinner with the concept of whatever and the Chinese restaurant.
And at the other table they were eating fried rice.
And this same guy, Anthony Men, I got to meet him once actually, a super cool guy.
I remember he was also telling he did something similar also in a food truck.
It was like a taco truck and they would rent it the day that it was closed and they would cook something completely different.
I don't know what it was, but imagine like, I don't know, doing some kind of Chinese food or I think it was like gourmet burgers actually.
Something like that.
They were doing that on a specific day.
So like also important, well, in your case, you mentioned you invited your friends and family, which is also a good start.
But these kind of things also need some kind of marketing actions, like, I don't know, creating an Instagram account and I don't know, moving some things, calling some people, inviting some people that will invite more people, these kind of things also at least to begin with, right?
Yeah, kind of percent.
And another super cool experience here is, and I really like this one because it's a friend of mine, Sebastian Pichera.
We've been there to eat actually to that one, which was a tiny pop-up.
This was a Chilean wine bar, super little.
So they didn't have any space.
They didn't even have like smoke extractors at the bar.
So they were very limited.
They had this special fryers that don't need smoke extractors that you can use by Spanish law to cook and two other pieces of equipment, like a small salamander and two other things.
So he was actually doing like Chilean hot dogs and pastrami.
And then this guy came who was like a super talented sushi chef.
And in a little corner, the size of a cutting board, he started delivering the best sushi in town.
Yeah.
He was kidding with a super nice sushi that, well, that's where he actually started building his brand.
I told him we were making this episode.
So I asked him a few questions like, dude, how did that work?
Like money wise, how did you, what was your arrangement?
Nice.
And apparently they, he paid some of the part of the rent of the place and then the earnings he would give 20% to the owner.
So basically he was making 80% of the earnings of everything.
And that pop up lasted for a long while.
Yeah.
Maybe one and a half year, maybe two years, something like that.
And it's super interesting because he really built like his audience there, his community of eaters.
And now he scaled up into a proper sushi restaurant with a beautiful Japanese bar.
He has 14 workers for me.
It's not only the best sushi in the cities.
One of my favorite restaurants to go, you know, I go there every once in a while, not so much because it's relatively expensive.
Not super, but I mean, it's not a place to go every week.
Otherwise I would for sure.
But yeah, I love it.
He, he starts, he has like three sushi chefs at the bar.
Everything looks so much better.
He also started doing the ramen and other kinds of stuff.
And back then he was doing only sushi, but yeah, sushi is also like a super easy way to do this kind of things because everything you need is a cutting board, a small fridge, and you're good to go.
A little corner in a bar.
And skills.
Yeah.
Yes, absolutely.
I think with Seva, it's like we went to eat there quite a few times when we were both in San Sebastian together.
And that's like the perfect pop-up success story because, you know, you find a place, you're like, it's the kind of like, hey, why not?
Everybody wins.
For the bar people, it's exactly the same.
Just that somebody's there paying some of their rent and like, it's a win-win situation.
And, you know, when he got to the point of opening his restaurant, everybody knew who he was.
Yeah.
And straight away the restaurant opens, he's got an audience, you know, ready to go.
And this is perfect, you know, like, it's what he was saying.
It's like proof of concept and like testing out a concept.
There's many ways that you can approach it.
You can test yourself out and you can experiment.
You can do something that you don't want to commit to just for a little while.
You know, you can do experimental dinners that are like very experience driven, but that you wouldn't necessarily want to open a restaurant for.
Or you can say, I want to do this.
I want to open a business with it.
Let me test out how it works.
How did the margins work?
You know, like, does it make sense if I spend this in this much time with all of this shit?
You know, am I getting back enough?
Do a lot of people want to come often?
So, yeah, this is really like the more that we talk about it, man.
Like, I'm starting to think that pop ups are like, I want to start recommending people to do more pop ups, honestly, because it's like a really, really valuable experience to make.
Yeah.
And especially if you want to open a restaurant, you definitely should do a pop up.
Yeah.
For example, another friend, Aaron Castillo, he's a Venezuelan chef here in the city.
And he's actually in that process of wanting to open a restaurant.
They went to Basque Culinary Center, organized like this kind of business accelerators for restaurants.
So he did like the whole acceleration process.
It's a process of a few weeks.
If you have a project, they will, you know, give you advice and consultancy on everything you need, everything you need to open a restaurant, like from every single angle.
So they developed the concept they had.
It's called Lua.
It's the name of the concept.
It's kind of like, well, his style of cuisine.
He has worked in many countries in Latin America and also here in some of the top restaurants here in Spain.
So it's his thing.
But yeah, he invited me to one of a pop up he did.
And basically it was exactly that.
It was a bar on their day off and they simulated the whole restaurant experience they wanted to do.
So they invited friends.
They charged the whole menu.
They cooked every single dish.
They did the whole service, everything.
And it's also like a good way, you know, to validate your food, to see if there is anything wrong with the procession.
Are people really feeling it?
Are people like not so sure?
You know, you get a feeling of what you're doing and it also motivates you to move further if your concept is right.
Yep, absolutely.
So we have here some questions from our followers on Instagram.
Oh, fuck yeah.
I love listening to questions, man.
So first one, Finn Rogers asked best ways to raise capital for it.
Bar difficult question made.
Do it without capital, man.
Just go for it.
I would say exactly that.
Yeah, I would say make it in a way that you don't need capital to start with.
Because everything can be designed in a different way.
You know, if you need to start there, then, you know, rethink the concept a little bit.
A pop up, you know, if you if you have already like dabbled a little bit, I'd say crowdfund.
But for crowdfunding, you know, you need some content to be able to present what it is that you want to crowdfund.
So you need to have put a little bit of work into it.
I would say, you know, don't be too hung up on the final vision, because sometimes you need to get there.
Design it and rethink it in a way where you can start it without the resources that you need to have the final vision of it.
Yeah, I would say like your most important resource is you like your talent and you're willing to to put the work to brains and your heart.
The news as a reference, you know, this huge super pop ups like has some blue mental doing a pop up in Melbourne or Nomad doing a pop up in Kyoto.
That shouldn't be your example.
Your example should be the guy renting a food truck on their day off and just buying some ingredients and inviting some friends and and doing something and just to get some pictures and something that you can later show to investors.
Because that's the thing.
Like a pop up is more like something you do to prove our concept, to get some experience to then go to raise capital.
It's not that you raise capital to do a pop up.
You can do so much with hardly anything at all.
Honestly, like even cooking equipment, you know, like we started with we bought some plates from Ikea to do the pop up and it didn't matter.
Like they were that cheap.
We we didn't need fancy plates.
It's nice to have nice tableware.
We had a fucking sold in half barrel that cost us 30 pounds.
I think of like eBay.
You know, you need like cooking open fire, you know, a couple of nice ingredients.
You don't need much.
My friend Edgar at one point, Edgar Wallace in London was doing a sort of pop up where he built a wok burner on the on the back of a bicycle.
And he was really deeply into researching rural Chinese cooking like real Chinese cuisine.
It was getting really into that.
He's the kind of guy who would go to a Chinese restaurant and be sort of like, hey, I want to work here like a real Chinese restaurant, you know, not like a fancy Chinese restaurant.
And they'd be like, no, no, no.
What the fuck?
Go away, white boy.
And he'd be like, man, I'll wash dishes.
I don't care.
I just want to get it.
And they'd be like, all right, wash dishes then.
And he'd do it.
And he'd just get his foot in the door.
You know, the kind of guy was obsessed with something.
And they researched this like the style of cooking was really into it and just started like cycling around London and cooking lunch for people, just making these like authentic wok dishes.
You know, you don't need anything like you just need.
You just need your own two hands and skills and a cool idea.
That's all you need.
And keep it simple.
Like don't go crazy by doing like a super tasty menu with 45 dishes, perhaps, you know, doing just like a single thing, but very well done.
It's a very good idea for a pop up.
So do the best you can do and do just that.
You know?
And going back to the well, capital, there is this rule of the three Fs, friends, family and fools.
You can start there.
And next question, Lance Pearson, 27 asks, what is the best way to buy ingredients?
Strange question.
What is the best way to buy ingredients?
Well, if you go, if you have a market near you, go to a market.
All right.
Like a farmer's market, because it'll be relatively local.
It'll be relatively seasonal, which means it'll be relatively good.
I would start there.
You know?
Yeah.
Make it practical.
Something that doesn't require too many logistics, too many steps.
It's something that is easy to execute.
Yeah.
Absolutely.
Good ingredients don't need to necessarily cost a lot.
You don't need to buy the fancy stuff.
You just, it just needs to have a bit of substance.
Yeah.
I wouldn't overthink it.
Just go with the flow.
Go with the resources that you are given.
Don't overcomplicate it.
Aldente asks, how do you, Aldente, is that you?
Did you, did this question?
No.
That's your kind of nickname.
If I did, it's a great username.
So first of all, congratulations for your username, Aldente.
And he asked, how do you start slash get into a space slash attract people, et cetera?
Well, I think we answered many of these questions during the episode.
Yeah, I think we did.
I mean, like I said, I would just like think about where you want to do it logistically.
For me, it was in my neighborhood where I lived because it made sense.
Because there was a lot of people.
I mean, not a lot of people, but it was like a nice area anyway.
It wasn't like a suburban area.
There was lots of small cafes and there was, there was life going on.
Right.
So think about what makes sense.
When do you have time?
What places around you have the combination of being available that time and having the,
you know, the vibe and the size that you're looking for.
And I often think with starting things like that is, man, just go and ask.
Asking, asking doesn't cost anything.
Worse that can happen is that they say no, or, you know, worse that can happen is that they chase you out with a stick.
But, you know, just try and try again.
You know, a friend of mine said something that I always have to think about when I think about these sorts of things and like trying for the first time, getting over, over something for the first time.
And like not even before you've made the first step.
And he said the first draft of anything is shit.
And I'm like, yeah, you know, like I really feel that because it's kind of like you just have to start.
Just start, make the first step.
Don't make it blindly think about it, but just realize that even though you thought about it after you make the first step, you're going to realize a lot more things.
And that's going to make you take the second step where you're already more informed.
All right.
And maybe it takes two, three steps.
Maybe it takes eight, nine, ten steps, but you'll never get there if you don't take the first step.
So just, just go and ask.
And last question, Adrian Omer here.
He asks, why not doing the podcast while serving a pop up event in San Sebastian?
That's a good question.
Actually, that's a good question.
Adriano, why not make a podcast while we're serving food?
Well, because the podcast would consist of us shouting at each other, probably chewing in front of the mic.
Well, Adriano actually has a great cheesecake shop in Getaria.
We could do a pop up at his joint.
Yeah, exactly.
Adriano, if you ask the tough questions, you know, how about you provide some tough answers?
Like, like when can we pop up at your shop?
Exactly.
I'd love to do a pop up, man.
I'm down.
I'm fucking down.
Like I just, like I just preached.
I don't need anything, man.
And just like give me a fucking fireplace and a cutting board and we're good to go.