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Hi everyone, welcome to Potluck Food Talks.

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Today I have a very special guest, my friend Ivan Brehm.

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Hi Ivan.

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Hi Eric, good to see you my man.

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I would say like the first thing I would ask you is a little bit about your background

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because as far as I know you're Brazilian, born but also German and is there anything

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else to the mix?

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There is a bunch to the mix, like most Brazilians I know, we all come from multiple parts of

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the world and just get together in Brazil.

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Everything ends in Samba.

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On my dad's side of the family we're Russian, Ukrainian, Latvian and German and on my mom's

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side of the family we are Syrian, Lebanese, Spanish and Italian and all like first and

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second generation Brazilians.

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Okay that's kind of similar to me, like my father is German and my mother is Spanish

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and I was born and raised in Venezuela.

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There you go, it's the Latin American modus operandi.

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And I think that's also like the perfect melting pot to get like a food or culinary education

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at home.

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It was.

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How did that start?

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How did you start cooking?

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I thought I was going to be a lawyer forever, my family is lawyers and you know as you get

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familiar with this stuff and one day I watched an ad in a magazine for a French school in

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France like learn how to cook and speak French at the same time and there was a chef picture,

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it was a lady with a whisk and I looked at it and it was the first time I actually ever

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considered cooking as a profession you know, before eating was the thing and then that

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was the first time, I might have been 16 years old.

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How did you end up at Perseid?

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That's one of the best restaurants in the 21st century I would say.

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It was almost accidental, I went to the Culinary Institute of America in New York after having

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gone through a couple of cooking schools in Brazil.

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I had a teacher in Brazil who was American and the CIA had a partnership with this cooking

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school in Brazil and he's like you need to go and just go cook somewhere, you know, go

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get this formal education properly and I went.

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I had to do an internship to graduate and the only person I wanted to work for was Thomas

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Keller.

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I had stumbled upon the book which wasn't accessible in Brazil when I was there and

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then a friend of mine showed me the French Laundry Cookbook and I was really curious

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and then I remember reading about the fire.

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I was just essentially very excited and lo and behold, after a few months of trying,

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it really accidentally, my brother called me to say, hey, I heard, I remember you wanted

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to work with Thomas Keller and I'm like, yeah, but it's impossible, they don't reply to

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my messages.

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So I'm having a beer right now with one of his captains, floor captains and I'm like,

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dude, please give him my resume and like it was an accident, he just shared a beer with

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a stranger and that stranger turned out to be somebody that really connected me to the

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restaurant and I went and it was just incredible.

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It was a very mind-opening experience to this day.

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It's like one of the most formative things that I've ever done.

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It was almost a year of just intense learning.

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I have some questions about that because I've heard that there's like this mentor thing

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that he has in his restaurants that once you enter that you have like an assigned mentor

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who will be with you in the first month.

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How does that work?

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I think, well, I worked at Perse at a time where the structure within the Thomas Keller

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group was not entirely established and so it was literally six months after the fire.

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I spent virtually a year there and I think a lot of these ideas were starting to grow

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but there wasn't a structure yet.

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But I do remember informal requests from head chefs.

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At the time, Jonathan Beno was the chef there and I remember a conversation where I was

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very much partnered with a guy called Rory the mad dog and he was a delicious, amazing

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human being and a real true mentor in all sorts.

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I really have nothing but deep love for the guy.

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He fell in love with clove cigarettes which I used to smoke at the time.

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So every now and again, I just give him a little pack here and there as an exchange.

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And my parting gift when I left Perse was a Jacques Pepin book with one of the most

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lovely memos written inside.

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Like he signed the book.

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It was beautiful.

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The experience was amazing also because I had lived and breathed that thing.

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Like it was just, that was on crack, man.

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That thing was just everything I wanted.

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I would walk 16 blocks a day there and back to just imagine how I could improve from like

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the a thousand mistakes that I was doing.

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It was my first real kitchen job.

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Wow.

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That's like a crazy start to start there, you know?

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It really set the tone and within the weeks and essentially failing after failing, after

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failing within the first three weeks and then the first month and then noticing improvement.

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And after that leaving, like having grown so, so much and it was an impossible thing

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to redo, you know, like I love that.

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It was a very good, good experience.

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Do you have like any specific anecdote or like a funny story or moment that you could

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remember from Perse?

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I think the one that's stood in my mind for the longest, for obvious reasons was one day

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out of, and everything changed after this day.

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It was like, it was literally night and day, but I was doing, it was probably my first,

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the end of my first month there.

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And I was very much struggling with the pace, you know, and you look at these guys and they

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were freaking amazing.

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The chefs, you know, you see yourself like years ahead and these guys were just crazy.

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And I remember, I don't remember what I did as a mistake.

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And somebody just literally belittled the living crap out of me.

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Made fun of, made fun of my standard issue knife, you know, like I was using the school's

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knife and these guys all had Japanese knives.

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It's like, look, if you're serious about this, go buy a knife and stop fucking around.

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You need to do this properly, blah, blah, blah.

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And I was just overwhelmed and all.

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And I went to the bathroom and I was really like bawling.

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It's like, oh, don't cut out for this.

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You know, this is crazy.

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And it took me like a good five minutes of just sobbing in the bathroom to get back to

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work and like just pick myself up.

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And as I opened the door, like red eyes, just teary, Laura Cunningham, I believe is her

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name, is Thomas Keller's wife.

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Yeah, she was waiting to use the bathroom and her face was like literally this close

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to my face in front of you.

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And she looked at me and she's like, are you okay, chef?

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And I'm like, yeah.

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And I closed the door, just bawling.

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And I thought it was everything.

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Like it couldn't get any lower, you know, then it became like this cool for me.

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I always refer back to this because like I think this like these moments are poignant

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and when you hit the ground is when you jump the highest, right?

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Like you can you really need contact with with the ground first.

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That was my ground, man.

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Like it was really the next day I was a freaking beast.

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I had similar moments in Mugaritz, which is the next place I wanted to talk with you

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about, which is where we met.

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And I remember a couple of times in Mugaritz.

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The first one was when they sent me to the dishwashing station.

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I think that was my first day and it was you to the dishwashing station.

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And in Spanish you say pica.

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And I didn't know that word.

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And I asked someone, what is pica?

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What is this?

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What is he asking me to do?

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I remember those talks in the dishwashing station.

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Yeah, those were intense.

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So like and how did you end up in Mugaritz, which is where we met?

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So I it was just I started after the French law and after per se, I started just looking,

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you know, I was hooked.

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It was everything I wanted to be, everything I wanted to do.

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And that was after like an understanding, you know what I mean?

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I wanted the expression and I wanted the job was everything I've ever wanted, really, and

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just to be better at it.

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And I remember maybe a year before, a year and a half before the El Bulli cover with

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Fernandre, which was iconic.

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I don't know what he was.

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Remember the Times magazine?

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Yeah, with the foam.

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How do you call that in English?

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Like a fulmer?

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Yeah, I think the carrot foam dish, right?

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Yeah.

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I don't remember.

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And so I left and I'm like, these guys are just freaking wicked.

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And I started researching and it just seemed like Spain was it.

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Like there wasn't bound by tradition in a sense of weight, right?

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Yeah, especially at that moment, like end of the 90s, beginning of the 2000s.

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That was a moment of Spain for sure.

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Yeah.

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And that's, I just went for it.

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I remember reading an article, there's an interview with Andoni about like essentially

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how food and emotions interact, right?

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And how you can evoke emotions through food, just a simple act of placing something, can

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connote something, can, I don't know, say something.

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And that was like, this is the guy, you know, I really wanted to work for him.

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Yeah.

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Andoni is really a guy that, I don't know, that cultivates you in the way he talks.

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Like that he's like a punchline producer.

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Every third line he's saying something really that resonates in you, you know, that you

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remember for the rest of your life.

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It grabs you.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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And there's so many, that's so true, Eric.

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I have too many of those conversations in my mind, you know, and even to this day, I

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think to listen to him is a blessing, you know.

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I've often referred when in doubt or had questions about the business or what I wanted to do,

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every now and again we speak about it and he says a lot with very little.

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And I think you can see that in his food as well, you know, like sometimes with two or

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three components.

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I remember like, see these dishes, let's not talk about verduritas, right?

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But let's talk about verduritas.

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I think I've talked about it in another episode, but just to go through it, verduritas literally

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means vegies.

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Yeah.

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So this was like the veggie dish, but it was like the gargoyle version of Mugaritz.

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It was the gargoyle.

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Yeah.

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It was like 120 ingredients, like individual leaves of different plants and flowers and

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vegetables cooked on different ways.

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And it was crazy.

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It was nuts.

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And you would play this like an Ikebana with medic tweezers and you know, it was crazy.

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It was really crazy.

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It would take time.

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I remember if you were behind, you're done, right?

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If the guests didn't arrive at the precise time or you were caught behind.

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Oh my God.

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You have to do it again.

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It was horrendous.

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But that thing of like saying so much with so little.

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So Mugaritz made sense.

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And it was, I still to this day, like, and to no detriment of all the experiences I had

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that were formative and all the rations I worked, but it's still the place that I house

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the most memories of what happened there.

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And at that time as well, you know, I remember that crew and that feeling in the kitchen.

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Yeah.

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And that year was crazy with so many guys that would become superstars working in the

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same kitchen at the same time.

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That was really magic.

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It was.

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It was.

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And to have him there involved and passionate and like literally show you the difference

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between the leaf here and the leaf here, just a little bit like this, you know what I mean?

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Well, actually, like I had a similar moment from that deal you told about going to cry

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to a bathroom and it was with that dish with the verduritas.

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And I remember I was fucking it up.

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I couldn't do it.

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And Andoni was there and he could also be like really harsh.

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And it was like, yeah, you have to put super poetic and then like a monster.

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You should put the leaf to create volume.

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That's not fucking volume.

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And I was like, oh, oh, and I started shaking.

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Now he's shaking.

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Someone take him away.

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You know, and I was there to take him away to clean something in the basement.

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You know, and I was like, I was just about to cry there.

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Like, you know, and then Danny Lasser came.

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By another incredible human being.

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Jesus, the whole macro.

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He's like an incredible chef.

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And well, Danny Lasser, I would say, is like my main mentor on attitude inside the kitchen,

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you know, on how to keep it cool and how to keep the tone and how to be respectful and

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how to be at the same time pedagogic without being an asshole.

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And all of these things that he embodies.

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So he just takes me back and shows me how to do it properly.

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And then with a proper methodology, you know, like you put one leaf, then you turn the dish

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and blah, blah, blah.

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So you create this effect.

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You start with the larger than the smaller.

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And yeah, and at the end, it was like a dope dish.

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When you saw it like properly executed, it was something really.

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Yeah, and those feelings of doing that afterwards, right?

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To be able to feel first that it's impossible and you never be able to achieve it.

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00:14:13,080 --> 00:14:16,480
And then just persisting and feeling it.

239
00:14:16,480 --> 00:14:17,720
That was very nice.

240
00:14:17,720 --> 00:14:20,080
Danny, I have no words.

241
00:14:20,080 --> 00:14:24,000
Both Andoni and Danny, it was a wonderful time.

242
00:14:24,000 --> 00:14:26,440
So working there for sure.

243
00:14:26,440 --> 00:14:32,200
I remember that was a moment that will never leave my head because I think it's very much

244
00:14:32,200 --> 00:14:35,400
connected to the way that we see food today.

245
00:14:35,400 --> 00:14:41,600
But I remember asking Andoni if we could talk more about conceptually what was happening

246
00:14:41,600 --> 00:14:45,880
in the food, you know, because we were consistently just doing the dishes, right?

247
00:14:45,880 --> 00:14:49,880
But we had no idea what the creative impulse was.

248
00:14:49,880 --> 00:14:51,600
And there was two things that happened.

249
00:14:51,600 --> 00:14:55,640
One was he took us for a walk in nature for like four hours or something like this.

250
00:14:55,640 --> 00:14:57,480
So the whole team was grabbed.

251
00:14:57,480 --> 00:15:02,440
And it was at the time where he had the violet ice cream with the chocolate roll dusted

252
00:15:02,440 --> 00:15:06,880
with green tea powder or something like this.

253
00:15:06,880 --> 00:15:11,480
And it looked like a tree trunk with moss on it.

254
00:15:11,480 --> 00:15:14,440
And he took us on this walk.

255
00:15:14,440 --> 00:15:17,640
And I remember we were walking around, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

256
00:15:17,640 --> 00:15:22,080
And he stopped in front of like a viewpoint, like he could see it was a valley.

257
00:15:22,080 --> 00:15:23,080
I don't remember what, where.

258
00:15:23,080 --> 00:15:25,440
I really have no idea where we were.

259
00:15:25,440 --> 00:15:31,680
There's lots of rocks and a big tree trunk and there were flowers and the tree trunk

260
00:15:31,680 --> 00:15:33,880
had moss on it.

261
00:15:33,880 --> 00:15:35,600
And it looked like the freaking deserts.

262
00:15:35,600 --> 00:15:40,480
And just when we were there, you know, and he didn't have to say anything.

263
00:15:40,480 --> 00:15:46,400
But this, this mimetic aspect that was just so everywhere and this realization that like

264
00:15:46,400 --> 00:15:51,920
inspiration exists everywhere you look, you just have to be looking right.

265
00:15:51,920 --> 00:15:56,200
And especially back then you could really like, if you take the chlorophyllia book,

266
00:15:56,200 --> 00:15:58,400
it really feels like a walk in the forest.

267
00:15:58,400 --> 00:16:04,160
You know, like that's like a thing that you can easily see in the way the dishes are played.

268
00:16:04,160 --> 00:16:05,160
Yeah.

269
00:16:05,160 --> 00:16:06,160
No doubt about it.

270
00:16:06,160 --> 00:16:13,120
Well, that natural element of the food is such an alluring thing to look at, right?

271
00:16:13,120 --> 00:16:16,720
Because you know it's edible, but at the same time, it's almost like magical.

272
00:16:16,720 --> 00:16:20,960
You're looking at something that you'd be walking over or walking with.

273
00:16:20,960 --> 00:16:25,600
And the other one was him talking about the equivalence of carrots and caviar, you know,

274
00:16:25,600 --> 00:16:30,960
that you had to stop looking at ingredients from their perceived value because the job

275
00:16:30,960 --> 00:16:40,000
of a chef was to create value with those ingredients, not to just pass over value, right?

276
00:16:40,000 --> 00:16:41,760
Translate the already existing value.

277
00:16:41,760 --> 00:16:48,920
And that stayed in my mind forever to like look at a product and not think of its, not

278
00:16:48,920 --> 00:16:55,200
only think of its monetary value and its perceived kind of status, but also like what's going

279
00:16:55,200 --> 00:16:56,200
to happen?

280
00:16:56,200 --> 00:16:57,200
What are you going to do with it?

281
00:16:57,200 --> 00:16:58,200
You know?

282
00:16:58,200 --> 00:16:59,200
Yeah.

283
00:16:59,200 --> 00:17:05,400
I also remember in that line of thought at that time, he would talk a lot about the redefinition

284
00:17:05,400 --> 00:17:06,400
of luxury.

285
00:17:06,400 --> 00:17:07,400
Yeah.

286
00:17:07,400 --> 00:17:11,840
That luxury shouldn't be like gold or silver or having like super fancy dishware.

287
00:17:11,840 --> 00:17:17,880
Like it could be just having water from the river of the forest next to the restaurant

288
00:17:17,880 --> 00:17:22,200
if it's like a super nice water and a super nice river, you know, like that's actually

289
00:17:22,200 --> 00:17:25,480
luxury not flying water from Italy.

290
00:17:25,480 --> 00:17:26,480
Yeah.

291
00:17:26,480 --> 00:17:27,480
Yeah.

292
00:17:27,480 --> 00:17:32,440
I think if only everyone had had that talk.

293
00:17:32,440 --> 00:17:39,720
Then you ended up at Fat Dog, which is another huge name in culinary history, Hassan Blumenthal.

294
00:17:39,720 --> 00:17:40,720
What about that?

295
00:17:40,720 --> 00:17:41,720
How did you end up there?

296
00:17:41,720 --> 00:17:47,320
Well, I spent after Mugaritz, I spent some time traveling Spain and kind of couldn't

297
00:17:47,320 --> 00:17:48,320
find anywhere.

298
00:17:48,320 --> 00:17:52,080
I remember calling Dunny from Madrid going like, I don't know what to do.

299
00:17:52,080 --> 00:17:54,360
Like I've had trials at all these places.

300
00:17:54,360 --> 00:17:56,040
I don't want to work in any of them.

301
00:17:56,040 --> 00:18:00,000
After this restaurant, I don't know where to go.

302
00:18:00,000 --> 00:18:03,920
And he's like, I can assume it's very difficult because there's no restaurant on the planet

303
00:18:03,920 --> 00:18:09,720
that is like us, but you have to start somewhere and just let life take you, which was great

304
00:18:09,720 --> 00:18:13,160
advice and awesome of him to give me the time.

305
00:18:13,160 --> 00:18:17,240
He probably doesn't remember this chat, but I'll never forget.

306
00:18:17,240 --> 00:18:19,000
Was it Dunny or Andoni?

307
00:18:19,000 --> 00:18:20,000
It was Dunny.

308
00:18:20,000 --> 00:18:21,000
It was Dunny Lassa.

309
00:18:21,000 --> 00:18:22,000
Dunny.

310
00:18:22,000 --> 00:18:25,080
Yeah, Dunny is like such an amazing guy.

311
00:18:25,080 --> 00:18:32,000
And after that, I left and went to Italy to take a break really, like to do like Osteria

312
00:18:32,000 --> 00:18:34,720
cooking, you know, I spent some time in Alba.

313
00:18:34,720 --> 00:18:44,160
There's a small Osteria there called Isognatori and then some time at a wine cantina.

314
00:18:44,160 --> 00:18:49,360
And then I started working at a castle for a little bit as a chef there.

315
00:18:49,360 --> 00:18:52,520
And it all felt like I was just really repairing.

316
00:18:52,520 --> 00:18:55,280
I needed to be repaired a bit.

317
00:18:55,280 --> 00:18:56,280
And then the duck came.

318
00:18:56,280 --> 00:18:58,440
I got an opportunity as an intern.

319
00:18:58,440 --> 00:18:59,700
I took it.

320
00:18:59,700 --> 00:19:02,700
I literally just gave everything I had.

321
00:19:02,700 --> 00:19:09,640
It was at the time the duck was just, it was right on the year that Sattar got its best

322
00:19:09,640 --> 00:19:11,720
Russian in the world.

323
00:19:11,720 --> 00:19:13,940
The book was being written.

324
00:19:13,940 --> 00:19:17,180
There was an energy there with folks that were just really gunning for it.

325
00:19:17,180 --> 00:19:23,680
And I had never worked at a place where people were so absolutely interested about what was

326
00:19:23,680 --> 00:19:25,920
happening with the food they were cooking.

327
00:19:25,920 --> 00:19:31,600
People during service would be talking about like stabilizing agents and specific temperatures

328
00:19:31,600 --> 00:19:34,040
about beef and should we do 56?

329
00:19:34,040 --> 00:19:36,520
And I don't mean like the chef, the head chef.

330
00:19:36,520 --> 00:19:41,360
I meant like CDPs and sous chefs and almost like a weird democratic kind of bit where

331
00:19:41,360 --> 00:19:42,360
people had voice.

332
00:19:42,360 --> 00:19:43,360
Is it?

333
00:19:43,360 --> 00:19:45,200
It's like a tight space, you know?

334
00:19:45,200 --> 00:19:51,480
And so like a very top down hierarchical system would have felt unbearable almost.

335
00:19:51,480 --> 00:19:55,920
So people during service consistently feedbacks like, hey, a couple degrees hotter, a couple

336
00:19:55,920 --> 00:19:58,080
degrees colder for everything.

337
00:19:58,080 --> 00:20:02,920
Like that was something that in retrospect, like a lot of the Spanish Russians, I remember

338
00:20:02,920 --> 00:20:07,240
working at a restaurant I won't name that has multiple stars too, but they would make

339
00:20:07,240 --> 00:20:08,920
the sauce in the beginning in Spain.

340
00:20:08,920 --> 00:20:12,680
They would make the sauce in the beginning of the evening and still serve it by the end

341
00:20:12,680 --> 00:20:17,840
of the night, this thick kind of glazy whatever that they just slopped on the plate.

342
00:20:17,840 --> 00:20:22,120
At the duck, if the stuff wasn't the same viscosity with the same acidity at the same

343
00:20:22,120 --> 00:20:28,280
temperature, like you get sent back, no questions asked, you know, the standards were just incredible

344
00:20:28,280 --> 00:20:33,640
and the interaction between chefs regardless of their ranking.

345
00:20:33,640 --> 00:20:38,400
I mean, it has been one of the best restaurants in the world for many years and it has also

346
00:20:38,400 --> 00:20:44,880
been like a game changing restaurants, one that brought science and cooking a lot closer.

347
00:20:44,880 --> 00:20:51,800
I remember as a kid, the first time I heard the concept of a culinary lab or gastronomic

348
00:20:51,800 --> 00:20:55,600
lab, I'm not sure I think it was culinary lab, it was the name of a show, Discovery

349
00:20:55,600 --> 00:21:00,120
Channel where Hassan Blumenthal was the host.

350
00:21:00,120 --> 00:21:01,120
It was so good.

351
00:21:01,120 --> 00:21:02,120
What a wonderful show.

352
00:21:02,120 --> 00:21:09,760
Yeah, and I remember watching that and I was already starting cooking back then and it

353
00:21:09,760 --> 00:21:16,000
was like, okay, these guys are really doing like dope platings and conceptually deep dishes.

354
00:21:16,000 --> 00:21:17,960
This is not just anything, you know?

355
00:21:17,960 --> 00:21:22,480
And I googled and I see like this guy has three Michelin stars and he was already on

356
00:21:22,480 --> 00:21:25,680
the 50 best list that was just starting.

357
00:21:25,680 --> 00:21:28,880
This must have been like around 2005.

358
00:21:28,880 --> 00:21:32,240
So I was like, man, this is incredible.

359
00:21:32,240 --> 00:21:37,280
I have never gotten deep into his work, like having read his books or getting deep into

360
00:21:37,280 --> 00:21:42,840
his recipes or having go to his restaurants, but I for sure understand the impact he's

361
00:21:42,840 --> 00:21:43,840
had.

362
00:21:43,840 --> 00:21:51,920
And to be honest, it's worth way more credit than it gets, you know, to be frank.

363
00:21:51,920 --> 00:21:59,720
He is a genius in the way that he conceives food, but also in the way that he just approaches

364
00:21:59,720 --> 00:22:03,400
the restaurant outside of just the food context, you know?

365
00:22:03,400 --> 00:22:09,960
Like I remember having later during my tenure there, having conversations about like, should

366
00:22:09,960 --> 00:22:15,600
we start warming the handle of the door of the restaurant during wintertime and cooling

367
00:22:15,600 --> 00:22:19,720
it down during wintertime so that people's first impression of the restaurant as they're

368
00:22:19,720 --> 00:22:22,760
holding something is soothing, you know?

369
00:22:22,760 --> 00:22:26,480
Oh, it's so cold outside and the door handle is warm.

370
00:22:26,480 --> 00:22:27,840
Should we change the font?

371
00:22:27,840 --> 00:22:29,160
Is the sound okay?

372
00:22:29,160 --> 00:22:30,160
What is the smell?

373
00:22:30,160 --> 00:22:31,280
Is the light all right?

374
00:22:31,280 --> 00:22:32,280
What is...

375
00:22:32,280 --> 00:22:39,960
If everything was curated, not to try to like mislead people, but just to really try to

376
00:22:39,960 --> 00:22:43,440
give people the best possible experience, you know?

377
00:22:43,440 --> 00:22:50,600
There weren't conversations about giving people an inferior product and just try to

378
00:22:50,600 --> 00:22:51,880
make the rest of it up.

379
00:22:51,880 --> 00:22:57,200
It was like the best of everything on all sorts of angles, you know, like ingredients,

380
00:22:57,200 --> 00:23:04,720
wine, glassware, everything was curated to just give you the best possible opportunity

381
00:23:04,720 --> 00:23:07,000
to experience it.

382
00:23:07,000 --> 00:23:12,800
My friend, John Reggevold, he has to be one of the persons I know that has eaten in most

383
00:23:12,800 --> 00:23:16,040
restaurants, you know, he's been like everywhere.

384
00:23:16,040 --> 00:23:20,480
And he says that that's on his top for sure, like his top three restaurants he's eaten

385
00:23:20,480 --> 00:23:22,240
in his life.

386
00:23:22,240 --> 00:23:25,720
And he told me like the experience was first, it's hard to get a table, you have to wait

387
00:23:25,720 --> 00:23:26,720
a lot.

388
00:23:26,720 --> 00:23:31,320
But then the conversation where they were taking the booking, they made him some like

389
00:23:31,320 --> 00:23:33,320
random questions.

390
00:23:33,320 --> 00:23:39,360
And he mentioned like two things, like a place where he traveled and something else.

391
00:23:39,360 --> 00:23:43,560
And they incorporated that into the menu and into the conversations he had while being

392
00:23:43,560 --> 00:23:44,560
there.

393
00:23:44,560 --> 00:23:47,880
And this is a reference to your recent trip to blah, blah, blah.

394
00:23:47,880 --> 00:23:50,840
And you know, like these kinds of things, which it's absolutely crazy.

395
00:23:50,840 --> 00:23:51,840
Yeah.

396
00:23:51,840 --> 00:23:57,640
And way before, I mean, I know 11 Medicine Park used to do something similar to this,

397
00:23:57,640 --> 00:24:01,840
but there were that level of proximity.

398
00:24:01,840 --> 00:24:06,640
It's funny, the greats, I remember that story of Anthony Bourdain getting a tobacco custard

399
00:24:06,640 --> 00:24:10,760
or something like this at the French Laundry when he came to eat.

400
00:24:10,760 --> 00:24:16,760
Yeah, I think these guys are very much in tune with what that represents for somebody.

401
00:24:16,760 --> 00:24:17,760
Right.

402
00:24:17,760 --> 00:24:19,520
And that's true hospitality in that sense.

403
00:24:19,520 --> 00:24:20,520
Absolutely.

404
00:24:20,520 --> 00:24:21,520
Yeah.

405
00:24:21,520 --> 00:24:23,360
Having someone at home and being a great host.

406
00:24:23,360 --> 00:24:24,360
Yeah.

407
00:24:24,360 --> 00:24:25,360
Yeah.

408
00:24:25,360 --> 00:24:26,360
Those things are amazing.

409
00:24:26,360 --> 00:24:28,520
But in all areas.

410
00:24:28,520 --> 00:24:31,160
And it was a place also because it's in the UK, right?

411
00:24:31,160 --> 00:24:36,000
I think the treatment is very different from a Latin country, the way that we engage and

412
00:24:36,000 --> 00:24:37,680
interact with each other.

413
00:24:37,680 --> 00:24:39,680
There is a different tone to things.

414
00:24:39,680 --> 00:24:44,880
And it was nice to be in an environment like this because this was the hardest experience

415
00:24:44,880 --> 00:24:47,360
I've ever had without fail.

416
00:24:47,360 --> 00:24:54,120
I mean, growing up as my first experience that per se was very difficult, but just to

417
00:24:54,120 --> 00:25:02,920
have the consistency and the consistent requirement for grit to just be there day in and day out,

418
00:25:02,920 --> 00:25:07,840
you know, turning artichokes, for example, and nailing every single one of them.

419
00:25:07,840 --> 00:25:08,840
It was impossible.

420
00:25:08,840 --> 00:25:12,320
Like, and the desire to get it perfect.

421
00:25:12,320 --> 00:25:16,080
Everybody knew there was no such a thing, but people were going for it.

422
00:25:16,080 --> 00:25:22,480
I remember my well-being trained, I think I was on my third week and they took training

423
00:25:22,480 --> 00:25:23,480
super seriously.

424
00:25:23,480 --> 00:25:29,560
I was on my second or third week and I broke.

425
00:25:29,560 --> 00:25:31,200
I was like, I can't do this.

426
00:25:31,200 --> 00:25:32,200
This is intense.

427
00:25:32,200 --> 00:25:37,280
You know, please call Alan Herrick, who's the gentleman training me, wonderful man as

428
00:25:37,280 --> 00:25:38,280
well.

429
00:25:38,280 --> 00:25:42,480
If Alan hears this, hello Alan.

430
00:25:42,480 --> 00:25:44,040
And I said, I can't do this.

431
00:25:44,040 --> 00:25:51,680
And the moment I said this, Ashley, who was the head chef there, took me outside like

432
00:25:51,680 --> 00:25:57,920
almost instantaneously and said, don't you ever say that ever.

433
00:25:57,920 --> 00:25:58,920
You know?

434
00:25:58,920 --> 00:26:03,760
Like, it's okay to not be able to do something right now, but don't say you can't do it.

435
00:26:03,760 --> 00:26:04,760
You can do it.

436
00:26:04,760 --> 00:26:07,320
Just freaking put your mind to it and push on, man.

437
00:26:07,320 --> 00:26:10,000
Get in there and tear it up.

438
00:26:10,000 --> 00:26:16,800
And it was the first Russian I realized that expected of you so, so much, but also on the

439
00:26:16,800 --> 00:26:19,160
other end, edify you to deliver it.

440
00:26:19,160 --> 00:26:22,200
You know, there was conversations that were HR related before.

441
00:26:22,200 --> 00:26:25,120
Any Russian really had any HR preoccupation.

442
00:26:25,120 --> 00:26:31,240
There are conversations about your feelings, your mood, chats about biohacking in the corner.

443
00:26:31,240 --> 00:26:32,240
You know what I mean?

444
00:26:32,240 --> 00:26:37,960
Like, it was a place that was really trying to expect it a lot, but also was willing to

445
00:26:37,960 --> 00:26:40,920
provide you that level of commitment there.

446
00:26:40,920 --> 00:26:42,800
And I hadn't had experienced that before.

447
00:26:42,800 --> 00:26:44,840
It was a wonderful experience.

448
00:26:44,840 --> 00:26:47,280
Yeah, that sounds crazy.

449
00:26:47,280 --> 00:26:52,280
You also reminded me of this story I was telling earlier about being sent to the dishwasher

450
00:26:52,280 --> 00:26:55,200
station that was actually Paco Morales.

451
00:26:55,200 --> 00:26:56,200
He was head chef at Bogares.

452
00:26:56,200 --> 00:26:57,200
And I was like, you!

453
00:26:57,200 --> 00:26:58,200
To the Pica!

454
00:26:58,200 --> 00:26:59,200
To the Pica!

455
00:26:59,200 --> 00:27:02,200
And I asked him, what is Pica?

456
00:27:02,200 --> 00:27:09,880
And they told me there, and I was really down, you know, like I really felt like shit.

457
00:27:09,880 --> 00:27:13,560
And I look around me, everything full of dirty pots.

458
00:27:13,560 --> 00:27:18,960
And I start cleaning, you know, like completely defeated, you know, like almost about to cry.

459
00:27:18,960 --> 00:27:26,120
And then Chema Martinez was a chef at a wonderful restaurant in Barcelona called Amposta, Bodega

460
00:27:26,120 --> 00:27:28,560
Amposta, which I really, really recommend.

461
00:27:28,560 --> 00:27:30,920
He was already like a bougie veteran.

462
00:27:30,920 --> 00:27:33,080
He already knew the whole thing, how it worked.

463
00:27:33,080 --> 00:27:35,480
And he came in and, come on here, I'll show you how to do it.

464
00:27:35,480 --> 00:27:40,360
And he was like, pam pam pam, doing everything like a fast pace, like having a methodology,

465
00:27:40,360 --> 00:27:43,600
like also assuming it with a different attitude.

466
00:27:43,600 --> 00:27:47,800
That was really life changing for me on how to take these things, you know?

467
00:27:47,800 --> 00:27:48,800
Yeah.

468
00:27:48,800 --> 00:27:52,640
And I think not these days, not to deviate too much, but I think we're touching on this

469
00:27:52,640 --> 00:27:54,980
without talking about it.

470
00:27:54,980 --> 00:28:01,680
But a lot, and rightfully so these days, gets discussed about the treatment of chefs in

471
00:28:01,680 --> 00:28:04,960
the kitchen and restaurants and abuse and mental health.

472
00:28:04,960 --> 00:28:09,020
Yeah, we talk a lot about that here at Potluck.

473
00:28:09,020 --> 00:28:14,200
And all of those bits are rightfully discussed.

474
00:28:14,200 --> 00:28:18,720
But I'd say that a significant amount of some of these most challenging moments that I

475
00:28:18,720 --> 00:28:25,920
had were equally met by people that were in the system, the chefs, the head chefs, the

476
00:28:25,920 --> 00:28:32,840
sous chefs, the kitchen porters that provided a level of humanity and interaction with you

477
00:28:32,840 --> 00:28:37,120
that was actually quite healing and edifying.

478
00:28:37,120 --> 00:28:41,880
And while I know that there is a limit for these things, and this is in no way an apology

479
00:28:41,880 --> 00:28:47,420
for folk to mistreat, abuse and mishandle their authority, but that there is something

480
00:28:47,420 --> 00:28:55,360
to be said about the challenges and meeting them head first and having the support of

481
00:28:55,360 --> 00:28:58,800
folk around you to edge you forward.

482
00:28:58,800 --> 00:29:04,000
And there were an interesting time, I think, in the industry where that could very easily

483
00:29:04,000 --> 00:29:08,240
be misconstrued for toxicity or abuse, you know?

484
00:29:08,240 --> 00:29:15,080
And while I've had abusive bosses in the past, and I won't name them here just because I

485
00:29:15,080 --> 00:29:20,640
also credit them for a substantial amount of my growth overall, I do remember these folks

486
00:29:20,640 --> 00:29:26,800
that were serious with me with a lot of gratitude.

487
00:29:26,800 --> 00:29:30,560
They really gave me the opportunity to be better.

488
00:29:30,560 --> 00:29:35,920
They expected more from me, and I in turn expected more from myself too.

489
00:29:35,920 --> 00:29:41,480
Yeah, like I also had those moments of, as you said, making things I thought I would

490
00:29:41,480 --> 00:29:46,600
never be able to do, you know, and doing them easily, you know, after training.

491
00:29:46,600 --> 00:29:47,600
That's what training is.

492
00:29:47,600 --> 00:29:48,600
Yeah.

493
00:29:48,600 --> 00:29:50,880
And especially in a vocational gig like this, right?

494
00:29:50,880 --> 00:29:56,960
Like I think that there is so much of the language of what we do is really learned on

495
00:29:56,960 --> 00:29:57,960
the job.

496
00:29:57,960 --> 00:29:58,960
It's not learned in a book.

497
00:29:58,960 --> 00:30:03,120
And you can go to the best culinary school in the world that if you haven't repeated

498
00:30:03,120 --> 00:30:06,720
that process a thousand times, you won't master it, right?

499
00:30:06,720 --> 00:30:12,960
And if cooking is a language, really, you can know the basic words and express a basic

500
00:30:12,960 --> 00:30:13,960
sentence.

501
00:30:13,960 --> 00:30:19,160
But if you want to poetically say something, if you want to categorically say something,

502
00:30:19,160 --> 00:30:23,080
it takes understanding that vocabulary with a lot of clarity.

503
00:30:23,080 --> 00:30:28,640
And that's years making mistakes, spelling things incorrectly, being reminded of how

504
00:30:28,640 --> 00:30:30,560
incoherent you are.

505
00:30:30,560 --> 00:30:35,840
And not enough is said about that process, but maybe that's a conversation for another

506
00:30:35,840 --> 00:30:36,840
year.

507
00:30:36,840 --> 00:30:38,280
Yeah, no, I actually wanted to jump on that.

508
00:30:38,280 --> 00:30:44,400
Like after all this background, you ended up in Singapore opening Nory, which is where

509
00:30:44,400 --> 00:30:45,400
you're in.

510
00:30:45,400 --> 00:30:46,400
Is that pronounced right?

511
00:30:46,400 --> 00:30:49,600
Which is where you're working now.

512
00:30:49,600 --> 00:30:51,120
How did this start?

513
00:30:51,120 --> 00:30:53,640
What was the goal when you opened this place?

514
00:30:53,640 --> 00:30:59,800
I was in Singapore already working at a restaurant group and I decided to leave Singapore and

515
00:30:59,800 --> 00:31:06,120
go back to Brazil and in the interim, after having quit my job here and preparing for

516
00:31:06,120 --> 00:31:12,160
a move, got called onto a meeting with who is now my business partner, a lovely man called

517
00:31:12,160 --> 00:31:14,240
Lilik Peng.

518
00:31:14,240 --> 00:31:18,840
And it was a very fruitful chat and we talked about a bunch of stuff and the restaurant

519
00:31:18,840 --> 00:31:20,280
opportunity was one of them.

520
00:31:20,280 --> 00:31:25,280
And he said, look, I don't have anything right now, but in the future, if there's an opportunity,

521
00:31:25,280 --> 00:31:26,720
I'll let you know.

522
00:31:26,720 --> 00:31:33,440
And there was literally a couple of weeks later, there was the building that he'd found.

523
00:31:33,440 --> 00:31:37,760
And I remember it was the week that I was flying to Brazil.

524
00:31:37,760 --> 00:31:43,540
I remember drawing the restaurant based on the floor plan on the flight and having conversations

525
00:31:43,540 --> 00:31:46,160
about the kitchen while in Brazil.

526
00:31:46,160 --> 00:31:50,440
And literally the restaurant was designed and built within a month and a half of me

527
00:31:50,440 --> 00:31:51,440
being away.

528
00:31:51,440 --> 00:31:56,560
It was so fast that by the time I arrived, I had no idea what we were going to cook.

529
00:31:56,560 --> 00:31:57,960
Like I didn't have a menu yet.

530
00:31:57,960 --> 00:32:02,480
I had the urge to have a restaurant and to drive an idea forward.

531
00:32:02,480 --> 00:32:04,720
Was there exactly what was the initial spark?

532
00:32:04,720 --> 00:32:10,560
You had like just like saying what, bringing out what you had inside or how would you define

533
00:32:10,560 --> 00:32:11,560
that?

534
00:32:11,560 --> 00:32:12,560
Yeah.

535
00:32:12,560 --> 00:32:13,560
Okay.

536
00:32:13,560 --> 00:32:17,280
It was that like there was, there's the hippie side of things.

537
00:32:17,280 --> 00:32:18,840
That was very much after that.

538
00:32:18,840 --> 00:32:23,160
I wanted to understand how to just express, express what you felt.

539
00:32:23,160 --> 00:32:27,400
And a lot of that was like my background and so, and the travels.

540
00:32:27,400 --> 00:32:31,320
And I was always drawing from inspiration from other places, trying to include ingredients

541
00:32:31,320 --> 00:32:36,640
that were either alien or underused in the cultures that I was representing.

542
00:32:36,640 --> 00:32:41,480
Very curious about ethnic everything and music and food.

543
00:32:41,480 --> 00:32:50,440
And so one day I had a bad interaction with a guest, with a human at a Lyft.

544
00:32:50,440 --> 00:32:56,160
I said good morning and the person like turned their back to me and refused to say good morning

545
00:32:56,160 --> 00:32:57,160
back.

546
00:32:57,160 --> 00:32:59,400
And I said good morning again, three times.

547
00:32:59,400 --> 00:33:01,640
And I used to live on the 17th floor.

548
00:33:01,640 --> 00:33:04,880
So I had enough time on that Lyft.

549
00:33:04,880 --> 00:33:10,080
And when I got to the ground, I went onto like a full spiral.

550
00:33:10,080 --> 00:33:12,400
It was like, how can we be so shit with each other?

551
00:33:12,400 --> 00:33:15,480
And then that day I carried that like for a while.

552
00:33:15,480 --> 00:33:18,360
And then it kind of, I started to think about it.

553
00:33:18,360 --> 00:33:23,000
And I sat in the kitchen floor, had a conversation with my wife about my day and then said, like,

554
00:33:23,000 --> 00:33:29,080
I don't understand, like just because we're different, why would this person not recognize

555
00:33:29,080 --> 00:33:30,080
me?

556
00:33:30,080 --> 00:33:32,400
You know, like, absolutely.

557
00:33:32,400 --> 00:33:33,400
And then it clicked.

558
00:33:33,400 --> 00:33:37,280
It's like, why not they have a restaurant that's about showing you people how we're

559
00:33:37,280 --> 00:33:39,760
more alike than we are different.

560
00:33:39,760 --> 00:33:45,880
You know, that despite the different shirts we wear, if we look underneath, we'll find

561
00:33:45,880 --> 00:33:50,600
that there's way more stuff that we share than not.

562
00:33:50,600 --> 00:33:57,800
And to be able to not be confused for a hippie and dismissed, I was like, the only way to

563
00:33:57,800 --> 00:34:00,920
do this is to throw research at the problem.

564
00:34:00,920 --> 00:34:06,080
So let's study the living crap out of food traditions and recognize how is it that they're

565
00:34:06,080 --> 00:34:10,920
so expressively different, because I'm pretty sure that at the heart of it, we'll find

566
00:34:10,920 --> 00:34:15,160
out they all stem from specific bits that are shared, specific codes.

567
00:34:15,160 --> 00:34:17,960
And that was really the beginning of Crossroads.

568
00:34:17,960 --> 00:34:23,760
I came to call that as Crossroads cooking and eventually Crossroads thinking.

569
00:34:23,760 --> 00:34:30,600
So Crossroads cooking and Crossroads thinking, and I think it's crazy, or better said, like

570
00:34:30,600 --> 00:34:34,600
completely appropriate for Singapore and also for your context, since you told me you have

571
00:34:34,600 --> 00:34:38,040
so many different heritage from different cultures.

572
00:34:38,040 --> 00:34:43,840
And at the same time, I would say it would be okay to say that the foundational narrative

573
00:34:43,840 --> 00:34:48,200
of Singapore is that it is a country built by migrants, right?

574
00:34:48,200 --> 00:34:52,240
Yeah, that we know it's a, it's a, that's a difficult story there.

575
00:34:52,240 --> 00:34:57,040
And I think Singapore is still trying to figure that one out because it's as a country, it's

576
00:34:57,040 --> 00:34:58,040
quite young.

577
00:34:58,040 --> 00:34:59,840
But I do agree with what you're saying.

578
00:34:59,840 --> 00:35:03,720
It just felt very natural for me to jump into this specifically because of the place that

579
00:35:03,720 --> 00:35:04,720
I was in.

580
00:35:04,720 --> 00:35:14,080
It is very much a melting pot also of cultures that I was very also illiterate on.

581
00:35:14,080 --> 00:35:16,960
And so every day is a school day for me.

582
00:35:16,960 --> 00:35:20,960
And it's still 11 years on, almost 12 years on here.

583
00:35:20,960 --> 00:35:25,880
And there's not one day that you don't just notice something that is new, you know, that's

584
00:35:25,880 --> 00:35:29,460
one of the reasons why I'd love to be here so much as a chef.

585
00:35:29,460 --> 00:35:32,900
But the, also the narrative of the country is still forming.

586
00:35:32,900 --> 00:35:38,960
It's a relatively young nation that had very much custodians, people who were here before

587
00:35:38,960 --> 00:35:45,080
the arrival of the Chinese, before the arrival of the British, way before the arrival of

588
00:35:45,080 --> 00:35:48,760
the British, which are the Malays, right?

589
00:35:48,760 --> 00:35:50,720
The Peninsular Malays.

590
00:35:50,720 --> 00:35:56,680
And so that ethno narrative there is still being formed, which is great.

591
00:35:56,680 --> 00:36:00,640
It's great to be in a country that's still kind of having these conversations because

592
00:36:00,640 --> 00:36:06,440
you notice the bones are not entirely calcified yet, you know?

593
00:36:06,440 --> 00:36:08,400
Like you can have that chat.

594
00:36:08,400 --> 00:36:12,520
I think it would be really interesting if you could share like through an example of

595
00:36:12,520 --> 00:36:19,600
a dish, like a complete process of how did it start and how did it end that exemplifies

596
00:36:19,600 --> 00:36:22,400
what crossroads thinking is.

597
00:36:22,400 --> 00:36:23,400
Yeah.

598
00:36:23,400 --> 00:36:28,960
I'll use one as an analogy and then explain how that exploded into crossroads thinking

599
00:36:28,960 --> 00:36:34,660
afterwards, which is kind of like systems thought, but applied to the arts and culture.

600
00:36:34,660 --> 00:36:39,880
So if we use the example of sushi, for example, I guess, and it's important for us to always

601
00:36:39,880 --> 00:36:44,680
start with dishes that are iconic and representational of a particular culture, right?

602
00:36:44,680 --> 00:36:49,900
And so we would take ceviche, sushi, pizza, things that are easily recognizable in part

603
00:36:49,900 --> 00:36:54,660
of everybody's vocabulary there when they're referring to a culture.

604
00:36:54,660 --> 00:36:59,880
And so taking the example of sushi, edamai sushi specifically, right?

605
00:36:59,880 --> 00:37:05,480
The notion of a nigiri of rice that is slightly sour and slightly sweet with a fish slice

606
00:37:05,480 --> 00:37:07,680
on top of it, fresh, right?

607
00:37:07,680 --> 00:37:12,560
Sometimes pickled or maybe cooked, but most often fresh.

608
00:37:12,560 --> 00:37:17,120
And we use that to define a lot of what edamai cuisine is.

609
00:37:17,120 --> 00:37:20,200
And it's an ambassador of Japanese food culture all over the world.

610
00:37:20,200 --> 00:37:27,000
Exactly, and it's like a culinary word and a symbol, an icon, something people understand,

611
00:37:27,000 --> 00:37:29,240
recognize and have their own ideas about it.

612
00:37:29,240 --> 00:37:30,240
Exactly.

613
00:37:30,240 --> 00:37:33,360
It serves a social function, also a social capital function.

614
00:37:33,360 --> 00:37:34,560
People use it as a flex.

615
00:37:34,560 --> 00:37:40,800
I've eaten at this restaurant, paid $2,000 for the best sushi of the live whatever.

616
00:37:40,800 --> 00:37:44,600
So that's a great icon to start with.

617
00:37:44,600 --> 00:37:51,960
Sushi really is, as it stands, is a very recent innovation of another type of sushi that came

618
00:37:51,960 --> 00:37:57,000
in maybe 150 years ago called batera sushi, which is a pressed version of this dish.

619
00:37:57,000 --> 00:37:58,800
The rectangular one, right?

620
00:37:58,800 --> 00:38:01,200
Like with a press, I think.

621
00:38:01,200 --> 00:38:02,200
Exactly.

622
00:38:02,200 --> 00:38:08,800
That happened maybe 150 years, 100 years before, all around like the 18, between the 16 to

623
00:38:08,800 --> 00:38:09,800
1800s, right?

624
00:38:09,800 --> 00:38:16,000
And that was the other period of great cultural stability and progress in Japan.

625
00:38:16,000 --> 00:38:17,720
There were very few wars.

626
00:38:17,720 --> 00:38:19,360
That was when the shogunates united.

627
00:38:19,360 --> 00:38:25,560
They were also closed to foreigners, right?

628
00:38:25,560 --> 00:38:26,560
At that period.

629
00:38:26,560 --> 00:38:27,560
Yeah.

630
00:38:27,560 --> 00:38:29,560
Like the whole country was closed.

631
00:38:29,560 --> 00:38:30,560
Yeah.

632
00:38:30,560 --> 00:38:31,560
Yeah.

633
00:38:31,560 --> 00:38:32,560
Exactly.

634
00:38:32,560 --> 00:38:35,560
Bear with us as we're close for refurbishments.

635
00:38:35,560 --> 00:38:39,200
And it was really what was going on, to be honest.

636
00:38:39,200 --> 00:38:42,880
I mean, before that, the Japanese were literally consistently in fighting.

637
00:38:42,880 --> 00:38:49,200
And after that, there was some form of not super lasting all the time, but there was

638
00:38:49,200 --> 00:38:57,080
a piece there that allowed for roads and road movements for folk to develop ice houses for

639
00:38:57,080 --> 00:39:00,480
the transport of items and for a middle class to be born.

640
00:39:00,480 --> 00:39:06,600
And with the middle class being born, the requirement for a snacky, easy to make food

641
00:39:06,600 --> 00:39:12,760
that could be served in counters or could be served in carts.

642
00:39:12,760 --> 00:39:19,040
And so those 1600 to 1800 period represents really the birth of this dish of press sushi

643
00:39:19,040 --> 00:39:23,400
that evolves into the hand shape of sushi that does not require a lot of space to make.

644
00:39:23,400 --> 00:39:24,400
Right?

645
00:39:24,400 --> 00:39:28,360
Both of these sushi's are the evolution of a specific dish that is about a thousand years

646
00:39:28,360 --> 00:39:34,840
old in the Japanese lexicon, called nara sushi, which loosely translates to old or mature

647
00:39:34,840 --> 00:39:36,760
sour rice.

648
00:39:36,760 --> 00:39:40,480
And it was a preservation technique more than anything.

649
00:39:40,480 --> 00:39:44,520
It's essentially pickling rice in a carbohydrate lead fermentation where you would bury the

650
00:39:44,520 --> 00:39:51,400
fish in rice and salt and allow the process of fermentation to render the product shelf

651
00:39:51,400 --> 00:39:52,400
stable.

652
00:39:52,400 --> 00:39:57,040
These folks would just walk around, serve you steamed rice, take the nara sushi out and

653
00:39:57,040 --> 00:39:59,120
just essentially flop it onto the dish.

654
00:39:59,120 --> 00:40:04,840
You had a pungency, a form of sweetness to it because of the fermentation carbohydrate lead.

655
00:40:04,840 --> 00:40:10,560
And it was served alongside other pungent items, things like ginger, for example.

656
00:40:10,560 --> 00:40:13,600
So if I'm guessing right, what's going to happen next?

657
00:40:13,600 --> 00:40:21,240
You applied your sophisticated fat dog culinary thinking into figuring out how to reproduce

658
00:40:21,240 --> 00:40:24,240
this ancient sushi today?

659
00:40:24,240 --> 00:40:25,240
Something like that.

660
00:40:25,240 --> 00:40:30,400
It gets even, it gets freakier, my friend, because nara sushi isn't Japanese.

661
00:40:30,400 --> 00:40:33,440
It was a technique that was brought into Japan together with rice.

662
00:40:33,440 --> 00:40:36,520
And it's about 3,500 years old.

663
00:40:36,520 --> 00:40:40,780
There's analogues all across Southeast Asia and Southeast China that predate the arrival

664
00:40:40,780 --> 00:40:42,240
of rice to Japan.

665
00:40:42,240 --> 00:40:48,560
Nara sushi is in some forms a dish called pho in the Cambodian tradition, very similar

666
00:40:48,560 --> 00:40:50,520
to what's pra-hock now.

667
00:40:50,520 --> 00:40:55,360
Kekasam in Malaysia, Carbo-Ajulette fermentation for fish that has been around for thousands

668
00:40:55,360 --> 00:40:56,800
of years longer.

669
00:40:56,800 --> 00:41:02,560
The history of nara sushi is the history of Buddhism into Japan, of tea, of lacquer, and

670
00:41:02,560 --> 00:41:07,720
a bunch of other stuff in rice that isn't Japanese in origin.

671
00:41:07,720 --> 00:41:10,920
It has very much roots right here where we're at.

672
00:41:10,920 --> 00:41:11,920
Amazing.

673
00:41:11,920 --> 00:41:18,080
And this is, of course, part of the story that you serve with your dishes at Nori.

674
00:41:18,080 --> 00:41:24,840
Yeah, not only do we build the dish like that, but we try to recreate that link so that there

675
00:41:24,840 --> 00:41:30,200
are Southeast Asian components to it as there are other Japanese-like components.

676
00:41:30,200 --> 00:41:36,600
We use a nice toro iwashi when it's in season, and there are little like miyoga pickles.

677
00:41:36,600 --> 00:41:40,560
There is lots of references to Japan, but there are references to the entire culinary

678
00:41:40,560 --> 00:41:44,400
journey that had to happen for the edamai sushi to exist as it is today.

679
00:41:44,400 --> 00:41:51,000
Amazing, so yeah, the crossroads cooking concept itself is explanatory now that you told me

680
00:41:51,000 --> 00:41:52,040
the whole thing.

681
00:41:52,040 --> 00:41:58,280
And it's great for creativity because ultimately you're mind mapping all of the evolutionary

682
00:41:58,280 --> 00:42:04,400
processes that culture has gone through to the point where you can stop at any point

683
00:42:04,400 --> 00:42:07,640
and understand the meaning of the choices you make.

684
00:42:07,640 --> 00:42:13,560
And that is very cool for creative work when you understand the way that culture is webbed

685
00:42:13,560 --> 00:42:17,360
and pushes itself outward, essentially.

686
00:42:17,360 --> 00:42:22,160
All you need to do is just find a point of intersection further and you can make links

687
00:42:22,160 --> 00:42:25,560
between Indonesia and Japan.

688
00:42:25,560 --> 00:42:34,320
Or Portugal and Japan, like Tempura was introduced by Portuguese Jesuit monks into Japan, and

689
00:42:34,320 --> 00:42:37,280
it comes from tempurada, which means season.

690
00:42:37,280 --> 00:42:41,880
Yeah, and the peixinhos da horta, and then the connection between Arabs and Japan through

691
00:42:41,880 --> 00:42:49,920
Portugal because the Arabs actually introduced the act of frying battered dishes into Portugal.

692
00:42:49,920 --> 00:42:52,080
So those links, you can't break them anymore.

693
00:42:52,080 --> 00:42:54,640
And the beauty about them is that they tell the story of us, right?

694
00:42:54,640 --> 00:42:58,840
This is really not just the story of one place, it's the story of this web of people that

695
00:42:58,840 --> 00:43:00,120
have moved.

696
00:43:00,120 --> 00:43:06,680
And so once you get to the heart of it, and sorry to drag this for too long, but for me,

697
00:43:06,680 --> 00:43:14,960
it fascinates me to this day, once you get that, it's a beautiful story of how we got

698
00:43:14,960 --> 00:43:19,480
to this place and it really explains why we are different.

699
00:43:19,480 --> 00:43:25,440
We carry this shared curiosity and code about the world, but our circumstances make that

700
00:43:25,440 --> 00:43:28,880
curiosity express itself very differently.

701
00:43:28,880 --> 00:43:35,280
And so it's really a code that's somewhat universal to some degrees and inherited that

702
00:43:35,280 --> 00:43:40,320
gets applied to your circumstantial narratives and differences, your neighbors, your weather,

703
00:43:40,320 --> 00:43:42,960
if you have wood or if you have water.

704
00:43:42,960 --> 00:43:47,720
And all of those bits will manifest into cultural differences over time, but the DNA of these

705
00:43:47,720 --> 00:43:50,520
bits is still very much related.

706
00:43:50,520 --> 00:43:54,760
And when you take that for food, which is easy because we eat, and you start to look

707
00:43:54,760 --> 00:43:59,520
at just culture in general, any human artifact is linked, is connected.

708
00:43:59,520 --> 00:44:04,960
No, and it's super easy to do that if you decontextualize anything you do on your daily

709
00:44:04,960 --> 00:44:07,200
basis, it can be something really crazy.

710
00:44:07,200 --> 00:44:15,360
You know, like, oh, I'm smoking plants imported from tobacco factories or I'm having these

711
00:44:15,360 --> 00:44:20,400
roasted seeds that are grown on the Ecuadorian side just to be more awake.

712
00:44:20,400 --> 00:44:22,640
You know, like all these kind of things.

713
00:44:22,640 --> 00:44:28,200
If you take them out of context, yeah, because it is the anthropological layer that gives

714
00:44:28,200 --> 00:44:29,200
meaning to it.

715
00:44:29,200 --> 00:44:32,720
Like how did that end up in your coffee cup?

716
00:44:32,720 --> 00:44:33,720
Right?

717
00:44:33,720 --> 00:44:39,400
There's a whole, yeah, a whole subtext there, set of forces that brought it there.

718
00:44:39,400 --> 00:44:43,400
And you can't, once they become seen, they can't be unseen.

719
00:44:43,400 --> 00:44:48,520
For me, I think one of the, I feel we spent a substantial amount of time creatively as

720
00:44:48,520 --> 00:44:53,920
chefs trying to understand innovation from a technical standpoint.

721
00:44:53,920 --> 00:44:59,760
And so, and there's plenty of that at the restaurant, you know, with cooking techniques

722
00:44:59,760 --> 00:45:04,040
at the heart of our means of delivery.

723
00:45:04,040 --> 00:45:08,880
But I think for the most part, cooking has been reduced to some degree to just the technical

724
00:45:08,880 --> 00:45:10,480
element of that.

725
00:45:10,480 --> 00:45:14,680
You know, it's like, do we have a new stabilizer that allows us to make a bubble that we can

726
00:45:14,680 --> 00:45:16,600
pump smoke into it?

727
00:45:16,600 --> 00:45:19,480
But what are we actually doing with it?

728
00:45:19,480 --> 00:45:23,800
You know, and how is that forwarding our story or narratives?

729
00:45:23,800 --> 00:45:26,880
How is that like, can we do more?

730
00:45:26,880 --> 00:45:32,720
And I think when we talk about food in this particular manner, that split between art

731
00:45:32,720 --> 00:45:35,000
and artisanal is palpable.

732
00:45:35,000 --> 00:45:41,760
You know, when you can infuse, and this is why like folks like Heston, when he did like

733
00:45:41,760 --> 00:45:45,800
the beetroot and orange jelly, a simple dish of beetroot and orange.

734
00:45:45,800 --> 00:45:48,960
Yeah, let's explain that dish for the audience.

735
00:45:48,960 --> 00:45:51,280
It's a genius dish, I think.

736
00:45:51,280 --> 00:45:53,880
It screws your mind the moment you pay attention.

737
00:45:53,880 --> 00:45:59,000
The waiter drops a purple jelly and an orange jelly in front of you and you're asked to

738
00:45:59,000 --> 00:46:02,520
this is the beetroot and orange jelly.

739
00:46:02,520 --> 00:46:06,640
Please start with the orange and you associate orange flavor with orange color, but that's

740
00:46:06,640 --> 00:46:08,600
a golden beetroot, right?

741
00:46:08,600 --> 00:46:12,160
And the moment you put the orange in your mouth, he realizes beats.

742
00:46:12,160 --> 00:46:17,520
So when you start to play with these things, the condition of what you're doing stops

743
00:46:17,520 --> 00:46:20,320
being just about like how to cook a steak.

744
00:46:20,320 --> 00:46:21,760
And there's great value.

745
00:46:21,760 --> 00:46:24,360
This is like literally 90% of the work.

746
00:46:24,360 --> 00:46:29,160
I could call that sensory fooling or sensory hacking, something like that.

747
00:46:29,160 --> 00:46:30,160
Yeah.

748
00:46:30,160 --> 00:46:31,160
Yeah.

749
00:46:31,160 --> 00:46:32,160
Well, you're playing with a human.

750
00:46:32,160 --> 00:46:33,160
You're playing a joke.

751
00:46:33,160 --> 00:46:34,160
Yeah.

752
00:46:34,160 --> 00:46:35,160
It's like a sensory joke.

753
00:46:35,160 --> 00:46:38,120
Like, haha, look, it was actually beetroot.

754
00:46:38,120 --> 00:46:39,880
Exactly.

755
00:46:39,880 --> 00:46:44,480
When you do that, I think you start to make people question things.

756
00:46:44,480 --> 00:46:48,880
And I think not a lot of not a lot of that's going on.

757
00:46:48,880 --> 00:46:54,020
And I feel, especially in the context of what we're doing, end of today, like with wars

758
00:46:54,020 --> 00:46:58,960
and craziness out there, that this conversation is necessary.

759
00:46:58,960 --> 00:47:00,640
You know, who are we?

760
00:47:00,640 --> 00:47:07,480
Now I completely get what you mean with artisan and artist like the artisan will never.

761
00:47:07,480 --> 00:47:15,440
Well, it's not his goal to make you like having like a, you know, like a revelation while

762
00:47:15,440 --> 00:47:18,800
an artist, that's a goal, I think, you know, like to change.

763
00:47:18,800 --> 00:47:21,160
Change something inside of you somehow.

764
00:47:21,160 --> 00:47:22,720
I think so.

765
00:47:22,720 --> 00:47:25,160
And there's merit in that, I think.

766
00:47:25,160 --> 00:47:31,560
And from a food standpoint, I think we've evolved.

767
00:47:31,560 --> 00:47:37,160
Like if you think of all the arts, I think there's a vocabulary for painting and music

768
00:47:37,160 --> 00:47:38,660
and theater, right?

769
00:47:38,660 --> 00:47:44,240
With scientific studies of these traditions, food in some ways, like the work that you're

770
00:47:44,240 --> 00:47:49,920
doing, for example, and the work that the Basque Culinary Center is doing and other

771
00:47:49,920 --> 00:47:52,160
schools, like it's very much incipient.

772
00:47:52,160 --> 00:47:55,920
Like we're really scratching the surface of the work and we're still talking about our

773
00:47:55,920 --> 00:47:56,920
tools, right?

774
00:47:56,920 --> 00:47:57,920
Yeah.

775
00:47:57,920 --> 00:48:00,120
Like trying to understand our tools.

776
00:48:00,120 --> 00:48:04,920
But when we get to the core of like how to use these tools to do something about it,

777
00:48:04,920 --> 00:48:11,320
to do something with it, I think the power is exponentially maximized.

778
00:48:11,320 --> 00:48:19,160
And I do believe that of all the arts is the one currently most relevant for our time,

779
00:48:19,160 --> 00:48:21,040
you know, I believe that.

780
00:48:21,040 --> 00:48:26,080
To get back to Nori, because I also want to understand, like having an experience there,

781
00:48:26,080 --> 00:48:31,800
like a menu, let's say, getting through the rabbit hole is like having stories like this

782
00:48:31,800 --> 00:48:36,680
one you just told me over and over again, but is there like a line, let's say, it is

783
00:48:36,680 --> 00:48:41,440
always related to Singapore or there are no boundaries or?

784
00:48:41,440 --> 00:48:43,040
There's no boundaries.

785
00:48:43,040 --> 00:48:50,000
We obviously use local narratives where we find applicable if the story is about a line

786
00:48:50,000 --> 00:48:51,440
like this.

787
00:48:51,440 --> 00:48:55,880
And we over the years have learned not to give research to folk.

788
00:48:55,880 --> 00:48:57,000
We feed them.

789
00:48:57,000 --> 00:49:01,320
If the work is done properly, then people find a connection just through taste, you

790
00:49:01,320 --> 00:49:02,320
know.

791
00:49:02,320 --> 00:49:05,760
And so we get a lot of this stuff like this reminds me a lot of my grandma.

792
00:49:05,760 --> 00:49:09,840
And it's funny because sometimes we have it on the same night, like a Filipino guy and

793
00:49:09,840 --> 00:49:10,840
a Swedish guy.

794
00:49:10,840 --> 00:49:12,160
There are different tables.

795
00:49:12,160 --> 00:49:15,880
They eat the same dish and say, this reminds me a lot of my grandmother.

796
00:49:15,880 --> 00:49:16,880
That's super interesting.

797
00:49:16,880 --> 00:49:22,800
Yeah, they're probably common factors in both grandmothers, you know, which is great.

798
00:49:22,800 --> 00:49:26,320
And so we learned to let the research out of the way.

799
00:49:26,320 --> 00:49:27,480
And we put a QR code.

800
00:49:27,480 --> 00:49:32,400
If people want to access the work, then they can to get the work done in a way that is

801
00:49:32,400 --> 00:49:37,120
substantial and not really prone to conformational bias.

802
00:49:37,120 --> 00:49:40,120
We actually work alongside anthropologists.

803
00:49:40,120 --> 00:49:46,480
So it's not just me doing that research, but we have a real good team of folk that we can

804
00:49:46,480 --> 00:49:51,600
reach out to for questions and people that are consistently working with us on those

805
00:49:51,600 --> 00:49:52,600
developments.

806
00:49:52,600 --> 00:49:57,360
And a lot of that work gets published through social media as like little snippets that

807
00:49:57,360 --> 00:49:58,920
are curious for people.

808
00:49:58,920 --> 00:50:04,420
And if they want to read the full work, they can just access the link on the tabs.

809
00:50:04,420 --> 00:50:06,580
And so we let the work be the work.

810
00:50:06,580 --> 00:50:11,600
But the point is for the food to do the talking, to unite folk just by sheer existing.

811
00:50:11,600 --> 00:50:13,420
And what about the drinks?

812
00:50:13,420 --> 00:50:15,800
How do you work the pairings for such a menu?

813
00:50:15,800 --> 00:50:18,880
And it has to be also like a complicated task.

814
00:50:18,880 --> 00:50:20,040
It is.

815
00:50:20,040 --> 00:50:24,320
For that, like we try to be very borderless again for drinks.

816
00:50:24,320 --> 00:50:30,600
And while we still focus on wine and sake primarily as the base of our menu, the restaurant

817
00:50:30,600 --> 00:50:39,760
had forever been a pioneer in the Western restaurant sake pairing kind of movement in

818
00:50:39,760 --> 00:50:40,760
Singapore.

819
00:50:40,760 --> 00:50:44,560
We were one of the first restaurants to start working with natural wine in the context of

820
00:50:44,560 --> 00:50:45,680
pairing.

821
00:50:45,680 --> 00:50:51,840
Our first sommelier, Matthew Chan, was a complete, is a complete wiz in that front.

822
00:50:51,840 --> 00:50:56,520
And so we do essentially pick from everywhere.

823
00:50:56,520 --> 00:51:03,440
And the list is a lot more about width than it is of breadth than it is of depth.

824
00:51:03,440 --> 00:51:08,520
You know, like we don't try to like explore Burgundy 10 times over.

825
00:51:08,520 --> 00:51:14,080
We want to bring wines from Georgia, wines from Turkey, wines from South America.

826
00:51:14,080 --> 00:51:20,520
And we explored the variety of grapes and the varieties of techniques to express those

827
00:51:20,520 --> 00:51:21,800
commonalities as well.

828
00:51:21,800 --> 00:51:26,680
I guess also if the wine has like one of these cross-cultural crazy stories, it's also like

829
00:51:26,680 --> 00:51:29,640
an added value for your context, right?

830
00:51:29,640 --> 00:51:30,640
Absolutely.

831
00:51:30,640 --> 00:51:39,640
And so doing A, like very ancient grapes, grape varietals, and B, ancient vinification techniques

832
00:51:39,640 --> 00:51:44,840
are great for us to talk because there's tons of links there, right?

833
00:51:44,840 --> 00:51:51,480
From the conversation of Enfora to the idea of a grape that was actually cross-bred to

834
00:51:51,480 --> 00:51:53,800
become Sauvignon Blanc.

835
00:51:53,800 --> 00:51:54,800
You know what I mean?

836
00:51:54,800 --> 00:52:00,620
So the chats there are everywhere and with everything.

837
00:52:00,620 --> 00:52:04,860
So not only with wines, but we also explore rituals that are shared.

838
00:52:04,860 --> 00:52:08,360
And so I guess when he comes in, we actually do.

839
00:52:08,360 --> 00:52:11,160
Have you ever been through a tomate, like a Georgian toast?

840
00:52:11,160 --> 00:52:12,160
No.

841
00:52:12,160 --> 00:52:13,160
When folks kind of...

842
00:52:13,160 --> 00:52:17,360
No, but I know Georgia is like a mecca of wine, right?

843
00:52:17,360 --> 00:52:18,560
It is.

844
00:52:18,560 --> 00:52:25,080
The delicious beverages, but also their ritualized feasting habits, rituals, where people talk

845
00:52:25,080 --> 00:52:30,480
at lengths about why they're gathering and pay tribute to their ancestors and blah, blah,

846
00:52:30,480 --> 00:52:31,480
blah.

847
00:52:31,480 --> 00:52:36,140
The act of toasting is a shared human act across multiple cultures, right?

848
00:52:36,140 --> 00:52:41,400
And so we start the meal at a separate room where folks actually toast with a drink that

849
00:52:41,400 --> 00:52:45,180
we provide and we wash their hands.

850
00:52:45,180 --> 00:52:51,280
Another act that is ritualized and very common in multiple cultures, when there's no water,

851
00:52:51,280 --> 00:52:53,040
it's sand, right?

852
00:52:53,040 --> 00:52:56,800
And so the meal starts also with rituals, artifacts.

853
00:52:56,800 --> 00:53:03,120
The Russian is just dotted with symbols to remind folk of these webbed kind of connections.

854
00:53:03,120 --> 00:53:04,120
Okay.

855
00:53:04,120 --> 00:53:05,120
Super interesting.

856
00:53:05,120 --> 00:53:06,120
What about tea?

857
00:53:06,120 --> 00:53:07,120
Do you have any special teas?

858
00:53:07,120 --> 00:53:08,120
Same.

859
00:53:08,120 --> 00:53:09,120
Yeah.

860
00:53:09,120 --> 00:53:13,200
A large tea selection that changes all the time and same comes from everywhere with a

861
00:53:13,200 --> 00:53:18,040
good focus on the best Taiwanese, Chinese and Japanese tea.

862
00:53:18,040 --> 00:53:19,040
Amazing.

863
00:53:19,040 --> 00:53:20,040
Amazing.

864
00:53:20,040 --> 00:53:22,680
And Sri Lankan blacks as well, which are amazing.

865
00:53:22,680 --> 00:53:24,040
Well then recognition came.

866
00:53:24,040 --> 00:53:26,000
You got a Michelin star.

867
00:53:26,000 --> 00:53:27,960
You got featured on HH50 best.

868
00:53:27,960 --> 00:53:32,600
How did that felt after screwing up in your first years at Perse?

869
00:53:32,600 --> 00:53:37,920
It was a good pat on the back.

870
00:53:37,920 --> 00:53:45,880
It also came because the work felt so important and so addictive that there was an element

871
00:53:45,880 --> 00:53:50,600
of I wouldn't say fear, but anxiety in regards to this whole thing.

872
00:53:50,600 --> 00:53:57,880
Because as you know, guides and lists can be quite overwhelming and they demand a relatively

873
00:53:57,880 --> 00:54:05,200
large amount of allegiance for you to continue to rise and grow at those awards, right?

874
00:54:05,200 --> 00:54:07,800
And we didn't want to do any of that.

875
00:54:07,800 --> 00:54:08,800
I didn't specifically.

876
00:54:08,800 --> 00:54:09,800
Yeah, I can imagine.

877
00:54:09,800 --> 00:54:15,320
I can imagine you dunking a shit about Michelin stars, just getting them without wanting them,

878
00:54:15,320 --> 00:54:16,320
right?

879
00:54:16,320 --> 00:54:17,320
Yeah.

880
00:54:17,320 --> 00:54:21,200
I think obviously it felt like a great recognition to know that a good amount of people that

881
00:54:21,200 --> 00:54:24,800
eat out a lot saw some value in what we were doing.

882
00:54:24,800 --> 00:54:28,240
But the value was self-explanatory in some sense.

883
00:54:28,240 --> 00:54:32,280
I felt very much connected to the bits.

884
00:54:32,280 --> 00:54:37,000
This has never been an easy bit because there's obviously the recognition part, the human

885
00:54:37,000 --> 00:54:39,520
ego, the financial part.

886
00:54:39,520 --> 00:54:43,040
Those recognitions are incredible for all of those bits, right?

887
00:54:43,040 --> 00:54:44,520
You feel amazing and you should.

888
00:54:44,520 --> 00:54:48,680
But it can also be like a poison gift, right?

889
00:54:48,680 --> 00:54:51,400
It could be very well the trap.

890
00:54:51,400 --> 00:54:59,920
And I see folks that you deeply respect sometimes get caught and it's a sad thing.

891
00:54:59,920 --> 00:55:06,600
And I won't say that it hasn't happened internally, but I loved the process of getting

892
00:55:06,600 --> 00:55:08,200
out of that mindset.

893
00:55:08,200 --> 00:55:11,400
It was a real good awakening in that regard.

894
00:55:11,400 --> 00:55:14,720
And the work just benefited from it in a way that's nuts.

895
00:55:14,720 --> 00:55:19,680
It was how we managed to take this conversation into the arts and culture in general.

896
00:55:19,680 --> 00:55:25,320
We started talking about art curation, being panels that were a lot more considerate of

897
00:55:25,320 --> 00:55:31,960
our product as a conceptual product, not just the food that was delicious, but the thinking

898
00:55:31,960 --> 00:55:35,160
behind it started to make sense for more people.

899
00:55:35,160 --> 00:55:39,740
And we said, you know what, that's not the type of validation that we're after.

900
00:55:39,740 --> 00:55:41,840
And that's been really cool.

901
00:55:41,840 --> 00:55:44,240
But I'm excited about that.

902
00:55:44,240 --> 00:55:48,280
Our team has stayed together for the longest time and that's helped a lot.

903
00:55:48,280 --> 00:55:54,320
I think our core members of staff, which make up pretty much 60% of the staff fabric, have

904
00:55:54,320 --> 00:55:57,600
been with us for the entire duration of the restaurant.

905
00:55:57,600 --> 00:56:02,560
Some have been working with me for much longer than that, 10 years.

906
00:56:02,560 --> 00:56:04,600
Wow, that's a lot.

907
00:56:04,600 --> 00:56:08,040
And we're just going for it.

908
00:56:08,040 --> 00:56:37,800
It's worth our while.