1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:07,280 Hi everyone, welcome to potluck food talks. 2 00:00:07,280 --> 00:00:13,560 Today I'm here with my man Phil W and a very special guest, culinary sniper and fermentation 3 00:00:13,560 --> 00:00:15,760 gun valve Kevin, the Koji Whisperer, John. 4 00:00:15,760 --> 00:00:16,760 How you doing man? 5 00:00:16,760 --> 00:00:18,760 Thanks for having me, honored to be on the show. 6 00:00:18,760 --> 00:00:22,040 Thank you so much for being here Kevin, we were super looking forward to having you on. 7 00:00:22,040 --> 00:00:26,200 Yeah, I mean we talk enough shit and I listened to you guys on the podcast enough I couldn't 8 00:00:26,200 --> 00:00:29,600 help but ask to be put on here, so thanks for having me. 9 00:00:29,600 --> 00:00:35,120 So I had a food tour with Kevin, Phil, we went to Old Town, tried some things on a Monday 10 00:00:35,120 --> 00:00:38,800 which is not so easy to find the best spots but it was nice. 11 00:00:38,800 --> 00:00:39,800 Yeah, was it good? 12 00:00:39,800 --> 00:00:44,600 Yeah, we had our main man Brian who ate his first foie gras in front of us which is... 13 00:00:44,600 --> 00:00:49,080 Yeah, he lost his foie gras virginity just in front of us, it was quite an experience. 14 00:00:49,080 --> 00:00:52,360 Damn, was that like a random guy coming on a tour with you guys or? 15 00:00:52,360 --> 00:00:57,280 The tour was supposed to be with three people but the other two cancelled and he was actually 16 00:00:57,280 --> 00:01:05,640 telling me like, man I hope I'm not like ruining like a honeymoon couple having their tour 17 00:01:05,640 --> 00:01:10,240 and then they cancelled and I was like, no, no, you're having two guys for yourself for 18 00:01:10,240 --> 00:01:12,960 the tour and he was super excited. 19 00:01:12,960 --> 00:01:16,240 I can imagine because like you guys going on a tour, you know, I mean it's like, it's 20 00:01:16,240 --> 00:01:18,240 like you're all tough Kevin, no? 21 00:01:18,240 --> 00:01:22,680 I mean you know a lot of, you know, probably most of the spots so I feel like it'd be really 22 00:01:22,680 --> 00:01:23,680 fun for you guys. 23 00:01:23,680 --> 00:01:26,520 A lot of them I went to for the first time which is really cool too. 24 00:01:26,520 --> 00:01:30,680 There was value, it wasn't like we were just lining up at, you know, Barnastor and Bordaberry 25 00:01:30,680 --> 00:01:35,600 and Bucaras and like all the places we used to go to when we lived there. 26 00:01:35,600 --> 00:01:39,640 Then we asked our man from Kentucky like, so what are you doing tomorrow? 27 00:01:39,640 --> 00:01:43,600 And he was like, I'm going to the beach and I'm going to get more foie gras. 28 00:01:43,600 --> 00:01:46,360 That's what I'm going to do all day long. 29 00:01:46,360 --> 00:01:49,560 Homie almost passed out when he had the foie gras for the first time, he like doubled over 30 00:01:49,560 --> 00:01:50,560 in the bar. 31 00:01:50,560 --> 00:01:51,560 Did he actually? 32 00:01:51,560 --> 00:01:52,560 He didn't know what it was. 33 00:01:52,560 --> 00:01:55,760 I had to explain to him what it was, he was like, this is the greatest thing I ever had, 34 00:01:55,760 --> 00:01:56,760 what is it? 35 00:01:56,760 --> 00:01:57,760 I'm like, so. 36 00:01:57,760 --> 00:02:01,920 And you have to like gently let him down because, you know, obviously with all the political 37 00:02:01,920 --> 00:02:08,220 stipulations and it's banned in California because of the controversial practices and 38 00:02:08,220 --> 00:02:09,220 things like that. 39 00:02:09,220 --> 00:02:10,840 I mean, to his credit, he was okay with it. 40 00:02:10,840 --> 00:02:12,160 He was like, yeah, okay, it makes sense. 41 00:02:12,160 --> 00:02:13,520 He was actually excited about it. 42 00:02:13,520 --> 00:02:17,240 He said, you should start like an animal cruelty tour. 43 00:02:17,240 --> 00:02:20,240 That would be amazing, you know? 44 00:02:20,240 --> 00:02:24,240 Crazy how pinchers sometimes bring out the darkest corners of a person. 45 00:02:24,240 --> 00:02:28,200 Yeah, you do the foie gras, you would do the Angulas as well. 46 00:02:28,200 --> 00:02:31,640 Thousands of voices screaming out in terror and then suddenly nothing. 47 00:02:31,640 --> 00:02:33,360 And then just sweet silence. 48 00:02:33,360 --> 00:02:34,360 Yes. 49 00:02:34,360 --> 00:02:35,360 Nice. 50 00:02:35,360 --> 00:02:36,360 Hey, I have a question. 51 00:02:36,360 --> 00:02:39,400 I was talking about this with somebody and you guys, you know, might have an answer. 52 00:02:39,400 --> 00:02:40,760 Is Borderberry still legit? 53 00:02:40,760 --> 00:02:43,000 Yeah, it's still my favorite place for sure. 54 00:02:43,000 --> 00:02:44,000 Yeah? 55 00:02:44,000 --> 00:02:45,000 Yeah, I went a couple of days ago. 56 00:02:45,000 --> 00:02:46,000 It's still good. 57 00:02:46,000 --> 00:02:47,000 It's crowded. 58 00:02:47,000 --> 00:02:50,280 Like that's the thing is it's so crowded in the part of the neighborhood now. 59 00:02:50,280 --> 00:02:53,480 Because when I was back in town and like, I was like, man, Borderberry used to be like 60 00:02:53,480 --> 00:02:56,800 one of my favorite spots, you know, for the pigs here and the like the orzo. 61 00:02:56,800 --> 00:02:57,800 Yeah, the oreza. 62 00:02:57,800 --> 00:02:58,800 Yeah, exactly. 63 00:02:58,800 --> 00:03:00,800 And the canelon and stuff like that. 64 00:03:00,800 --> 00:03:04,800 And then it was like really dipped in quality and it felt like the place was empty. 65 00:03:04,800 --> 00:03:11,120 I go there a lot and I have to say like there's been times where there's been quality drops 66 00:03:11,120 --> 00:03:12,520 for whatever reason. 67 00:03:12,520 --> 00:03:17,200 Maybe there's an unexperienced cook in the kitchen or something. 68 00:03:17,200 --> 00:03:20,600 But I would say like the last times I've been, it's solid as it used to be. 69 00:03:20,600 --> 00:03:21,600 Yeah. 70 00:03:21,600 --> 00:03:22,600 Oh, that's good to hear. 71 00:03:22,600 --> 00:03:27,800 But now it's like, like, Phil, remember when we were interns in 2011 and Saturdays we would 72 00:03:27,800 --> 00:03:32,640 finish at Mugarritz, go for siesta and then drive into San Sebastian and we could like 73 00:03:32,640 --> 00:03:37,680 walk into Barnett store and then go to Borderberry after that and then Lavenia for cheesecake. 74 00:03:37,680 --> 00:03:39,880 And then we could go to Barunda all in one night. 75 00:03:39,880 --> 00:03:40,880 Of course. 76 00:03:40,880 --> 00:03:45,720 And then here now it's like you have to line up for the tortilla to get your name down 77 00:03:45,720 --> 00:03:48,800 so you can get into Barnett store when they open eventually. 78 00:03:48,800 --> 00:03:51,200 Otherwise you're waiting for the first wave to leave. 79 00:03:51,200 --> 00:03:54,240 And there were people in line waiting for an hour to get into Barnett store. 80 00:03:54,240 --> 00:03:58,320 And that's like a three to four hour commitment to get in a line up for the tortilla and everything 81 00:03:58,320 --> 00:03:59,320 like that. 82 00:03:59,320 --> 00:04:02,320 And by then you walk over to Borderberry and there's a line up going out that door. 83 00:04:02,320 --> 00:04:06,040 And it's just, it's more difficult now than you kind of miss the days where you could 84 00:04:06,040 --> 00:04:10,640 just walk in and then get a seat at Barnett store because there was just space. 85 00:04:10,640 --> 00:04:11,640 Yeah. 86 00:04:11,640 --> 00:04:16,520 If you want to avoid that, you can book a tour with me on potluckfoodtours.com or reach 87 00:04:16,520 --> 00:04:19,160 out through our social media. 88 00:04:19,160 --> 00:04:21,560 I'm just plug. 89 00:04:21,560 --> 00:04:22,560 Yeah. 90 00:04:22,560 --> 00:04:26,960 I mean, like, I mean, that was like when we were there, it was like 2013. 91 00:04:26,960 --> 00:04:27,960 Right. 92 00:04:27,960 --> 00:04:31,880 And I mean, like when I went back, it was like just at the sort of like end of COVID. 93 00:04:31,880 --> 00:04:35,560 So I guess you didn't really notice it so much because places were just about opening 94 00:04:35,560 --> 00:04:38,720 up again and it wasn't that much tourism. 95 00:04:38,720 --> 00:04:40,160 But but yeah, it's crazy. 96 00:04:40,160 --> 00:04:44,440 That's gotten like that's almost like Japan level now that you queue up somewhere two hours. 97 00:04:44,440 --> 00:04:45,440 Yeah. 98 00:04:45,440 --> 00:04:46,440 Yeah. 99 00:04:46,440 --> 00:04:50,600 I mean, I still went to Barnett store and Bordaberry, but the thing is where I would 100 00:04:50,600 --> 00:04:54,920 have been able to go in one night, I had to spread it out over multiple evenings. 101 00:04:54,920 --> 00:04:55,920 Yeah. 102 00:04:55,920 --> 00:04:58,800 I guess, should we say like just for context, I'm in San... 103 00:04:58,800 --> 00:05:02,480 I live in Copenhagen, but I'm in San Sebastian for two weeks for a vacation. 104 00:05:02,480 --> 00:05:05,920 So that's why I'm currently able to eat at these restaurants, but usually I don't live 105 00:05:05,920 --> 00:05:06,920 here anymore. 106 00:05:06,920 --> 00:05:07,920 Yeah. 107 00:05:07,920 --> 00:05:08,920 That is some good context actually. 108 00:05:08,920 --> 00:05:13,840 Maybe we should actually talk about, you know, who you are and what you do. 109 00:05:13,840 --> 00:05:15,600 The mysterious voice. 110 00:05:15,600 --> 00:05:17,320 Who is a Koji Whisperer? 111 00:05:17,320 --> 00:05:18,320 Tell us more about you. 112 00:05:18,320 --> 00:05:22,200 Well, the Koji Whisperer was not a Koji Whisperer five years ago. 113 00:05:22,200 --> 00:05:29,400 I was a pastry chef five years ago and I was fortunate enough to be asked by restaurant 114 00:05:29,400 --> 00:05:35,040 Noma to move into their fermentation lab and work with David Zilber, who was the director 115 00:05:35,040 --> 00:05:41,000 of fermentation and also wrote the the white and orange guides fermentation that you may 116 00:05:41,000 --> 00:05:42,000 be aware of. 117 00:05:42,000 --> 00:05:43,000 Yes. 118 00:05:43,000 --> 00:05:47,800 It was 2019, I was coming over from Toronto and I had the fortunate circumstance that 119 00:05:47,800 --> 00:05:54,040 David and I have known each other since I think 2010, 2011 when he was cooking at a 120 00:05:54,040 --> 00:05:57,080 restaurant called Hawksworth in Vancouver and I was cooking at a restaurant called Splendido 121 00:05:57,080 --> 00:05:58,080 in Toronto. 122 00:05:58,080 --> 00:06:03,080 And his restaurant and my restaurant, we did a four hands dinner together. 123 00:06:03,080 --> 00:06:05,240 This is before four hands dinners were a thing. 124 00:06:05,240 --> 00:06:09,280 Like this was a big deal that his restaurant, which was considered the best in the country, 125 00:06:09,280 --> 00:06:12,080 was coming to the restaurant that I was working at, which was considered one of the best in 126 00:06:12,080 --> 00:06:15,600 Toronto to do a tasting many together. 127 00:06:15,600 --> 00:06:18,160 And it was just for one night only. 128 00:06:18,160 --> 00:06:20,880 David was a sous chef at this restaurant, so he was plating on the outside and then 129 00:06:20,880 --> 00:06:23,360 I was the saucier at the time. 130 00:06:23,360 --> 00:06:26,640 And so all of the things I was cooking, I was handing to David for him to put on the 131 00:06:26,640 --> 00:06:27,640 plate. 132 00:06:27,640 --> 00:06:32,080 So we worked very closely for that evening and it somehow organically came up that we 133 00:06:32,080 --> 00:06:34,720 were both huge nerds about Star Wars. 134 00:06:34,720 --> 00:06:39,520 And I remember reciting the opening to Return of the Jedi line for line alternating with 135 00:06:39,520 --> 00:06:44,680 him during the course of a busy service that was a that was beginning of a beautiful friendship. 136 00:06:44,680 --> 00:06:47,080 And of course, he went on to to Noma. 137 00:06:47,080 --> 00:06:51,400 And then when I was thinking of leaving Toronto, I reached out to him and he said, there's 138 00:06:51,400 --> 00:06:56,760 the possibility of working at that restaurant Noma in the fermentation lab because there 139 00:06:56,760 --> 00:06:58,040 was going to be an opening there soon. 140 00:06:58,040 --> 00:06:59,640 And I didn't say yes right away. 141 00:06:59,640 --> 00:07:03,920 I just wanted to make sure that he understood that I had never I wasn't a fermenter. 142 00:07:03,920 --> 00:07:10,800 I had homebrewed once and I had I was a bread maker in past locations. 143 00:07:10,800 --> 00:07:12,240 But I, you know, I never made Koji. 144 00:07:12,240 --> 00:07:13,240 I never made me. 145 00:07:13,240 --> 00:07:14,240 I didn't know what Koji was. 146 00:07:14,240 --> 00:07:16,200 I knew what Misa was and show you and things like that. 147 00:07:16,200 --> 00:07:19,080 But I didn't know how to put the recipes together. 148 00:07:19,080 --> 00:07:25,040 And he said, you know, we can we can teach you that he was more interested in like work 149 00:07:25,040 --> 00:07:30,680 ethic and fine dining background and attention to detail and the hustle and things like that, 150 00:07:30,680 --> 00:07:33,960 like the intangibles that you can't really teach. 151 00:07:33,960 --> 00:07:39,000 So I took like a month to say yes to restaurant Noma because Noma is not the kind of place 152 00:07:39,000 --> 00:07:42,760 you want to go to and then not be good at the job or go to. 153 00:07:42,760 --> 00:07:46,080 And and after six months, be like, yeah, it's not for me. 154 00:07:46,080 --> 00:07:51,240 Like you kind of have to do the work, the homework to commit and understand that if 155 00:07:51,240 --> 00:07:53,440 you do commit, you're going to be there for a while. 156 00:07:53,440 --> 00:07:56,720 And I always make a point of every subsequent job I take. 157 00:07:56,720 --> 00:08:01,440 I stay for longer than my previous one, which just forces me to go through the thought process 158 00:08:01,440 --> 00:08:05,680 of making sure that the next place is the place that I want to spend the next little 159 00:08:05,680 --> 00:08:10,960 while at, as opposed to, you know, every young cook has a resume that's like six months here, 160 00:08:10,960 --> 00:08:13,800 seven months there, four months there, one one year there. 161 00:08:13,800 --> 00:08:19,200 Then at the end of it, you're looking at your CV and you're like, do do I even have a mentor 162 00:08:19,200 --> 00:08:23,860 because you you've bounced around so much, you've picked up all this knowledge from different 163 00:08:23,860 --> 00:08:25,720 parts of the world and different restaurants. 164 00:08:25,720 --> 00:08:31,360 But there is something we said for staying somewhere long enough that you understand 165 00:08:31,360 --> 00:08:37,080 all the facets and you've in addition to that, you mentor people behind you as well. 166 00:08:37,080 --> 00:08:42,240 And that's something that I think young cooks don't understand at the beginning. 167 00:08:42,240 --> 00:08:43,560 Like I didn't understand that at the beginning. 168 00:08:43,560 --> 00:08:47,800 It took me experience as well to kind of see that happening in my own personal life. 169 00:08:47,800 --> 00:08:49,920 But yeah, I took about a month to say a Sonoma. 170 00:08:49,920 --> 00:08:53,920 And then when I did, I said, you know, I'll give you five years plus. 171 00:08:53,920 --> 00:08:58,000 And then they hired me and I've just crossed over my five year, my five year noma versa 172 00:08:58,000 --> 00:09:00,040 this past May. 173 00:09:00,040 --> 00:09:01,720 Not to say that I'm thinking of leaving or anything at all. 174 00:09:01,720 --> 00:09:03,920 It was just like a mental thing. 175 00:09:03,920 --> 00:09:06,340 Like, you know, I made that milestone. 176 00:09:06,340 --> 00:09:08,400 That was my the one I, the goal I set out at the beginning. 177 00:09:08,400 --> 00:09:11,000 And now everything is just a bonus afterwards. 178 00:09:11,000 --> 00:09:12,080 That's awesome, man. 179 00:09:12,080 --> 00:09:13,440 Really beautifully put, I think. 180 00:09:13,440 --> 00:09:14,480 Yeah, sure. 181 00:09:14,480 --> 00:09:19,420 Now going back to your trip here in San Sebastian, where what are the places you've been? 182 00:09:19,420 --> 00:09:23,200 Because you've been to Echevarrie, you've been working at Gerald's, we went to Associadat 183 00:09:23,200 --> 00:09:24,200 together. 184 00:09:24,200 --> 00:09:25,200 Where should we start? 185 00:09:25,200 --> 00:09:26,200 I guess we should. 186 00:09:26,200 --> 00:09:31,680 We can talk about Gerald's just briefly because that's pretty much the main reason I'm here. 187 00:09:31,680 --> 00:09:37,780 So I had this two week vacation that I had an opportunity to take a bit of time off in 188 00:09:37,780 --> 00:09:42,300 anticipation for the pop up happening this autumn in Kyoto. 189 00:09:42,300 --> 00:09:44,440 So at the end of July. 190 00:09:44,440 --> 00:09:47,260 So I have these two weeks and then another two weeks and then I moved to Japan. 191 00:09:47,260 --> 00:09:50,480 So I just wanted to go somewhere that was a bit familiar. 192 00:09:50,480 --> 00:09:54,160 And I also knew that in San Sebastian, there's a wonderful restaurant called Gerald's Bar 193 00:09:54,160 --> 00:09:58,480 run by a wonderful friend of both mine and Phil's and Jess, who we lived with when we 194 00:09:58,480 --> 00:10:03,000 were interns at Mugurit's all those millennia ago when we were kids. 195 00:10:03,000 --> 00:10:08,240 And she's now the chef at Gerald's Bar, which is an excellent, excellent restaurant. 196 00:10:08,240 --> 00:10:11,000 And the menu changes every day. 197 00:10:11,000 --> 00:10:13,400 And it's a small kitchen. 198 00:10:13,400 --> 00:10:14,600 It's simpler food. 199 00:10:14,600 --> 00:10:16,320 There's no tweezers. 200 00:10:16,320 --> 00:10:23,320 It's basically the opposite of a restaurant like Noma or Mugurit's or the French Laundry, 201 00:10:23,320 --> 00:10:28,520 all these massive fine dining places that eventually over the course of a career as 202 00:10:28,520 --> 00:10:32,080 a cook, you end up odds are you'll end up in places like that. 203 00:10:32,080 --> 00:10:33,520 It's just a natural progression. 204 00:10:33,520 --> 00:10:36,520 It's the champions league of restaurants essentially. 205 00:10:36,520 --> 00:10:42,400 And I kind of wanted to go back to the roots of why I started cooking in the first place, 206 00:10:42,400 --> 00:10:46,960 because it certainly wasn't to have a three Michelin star restaurant and things like that. 207 00:10:46,960 --> 00:10:49,680 I liked cooking at a grassroots level. 208 00:10:49,680 --> 00:10:56,320 So I basically begged Jess to take me on as a stage on Garde Manger and just to do me 209 00:10:56,320 --> 00:11:01,440 some plus and make staff meal and work service. 210 00:11:01,440 --> 00:11:05,240 And Noma's all induction and there's only a gas range at Gerald's. 211 00:11:05,240 --> 00:11:08,640 So I'm sweating again, which is nice. 212 00:11:08,640 --> 00:11:12,240 And it's just the hustle of a service where the menu can change mid service because you 213 00:11:12,240 --> 00:11:17,280 only have like six portions of pork left and then you go into skates or you go into Brille 214 00:11:17,280 --> 00:11:21,080 and there's only one portion of lobster this evening. 215 00:11:21,080 --> 00:11:22,920 And then after that, it's a fish or something like that. 216 00:11:22,920 --> 00:11:28,200 It's different in a way that for me, it feels like a vacation, even though I'm working not 217 00:11:28,200 --> 00:11:32,560 to discount the work that like I don't want to call Jess's job like a vacation or anything 218 00:11:32,560 --> 00:11:33,560 like that. 219 00:11:33,560 --> 00:11:34,560 Like she does work very, very hard. 220 00:11:34,560 --> 00:11:38,240 It's just for me mentally, it's a different part of my brain that gets exercise and that's 221 00:11:38,240 --> 00:11:39,240 what's enjoyable. 222 00:11:39,240 --> 00:11:43,520 But it's a wonderful restaurant and Jess is about as we would love to have her in the 223 00:11:43,520 --> 00:11:45,880 show soon. 224 00:11:45,880 --> 00:11:51,000 And yeah, I remember I went with Phil at least once, maybe more than once to Gerald's together 225 00:11:51,000 --> 00:11:52,000 to eat. 226 00:11:52,000 --> 00:11:53,000 Yeah. 227 00:11:53,000 --> 00:11:54,000 Wonderful place. 228 00:11:54,000 --> 00:11:55,000 Yeah, we went a few times. 229 00:11:55,000 --> 00:11:56,000 Yeah. 230 00:11:56,000 --> 00:12:00,000 I mean, this is like, you know, it's like a real, real restaurant, you know, at like 231 00:12:00,000 --> 00:12:01,400 a really high level. 232 00:12:01,400 --> 00:12:11,000 It's, you know, like really intimately run by Jess and Bella and it just does like real 233 00:12:11,000 --> 00:12:18,320 food in the sense that it like, it just kind of, it just like does what food in a way, 234 00:12:18,320 --> 00:12:23,320 you know, like what cooking is kind of like, in like its most raw form, like wants to accomplish, 235 00:12:23,320 --> 00:12:28,200 it kind of touches your soul and fulfills you and nourishes you and kind of, you know, 236 00:12:28,200 --> 00:12:31,360 brings you like a moment of joy while eating. 237 00:12:31,360 --> 00:12:36,320 And I mean, you know, I think that a lot of chefs, they start off cooking because that's 238 00:12:36,320 --> 00:12:37,720 what they want to do. 239 00:12:37,720 --> 00:12:43,120 You know, they want people to have this like this moment where, you know, you kind of appreciate 240 00:12:43,120 --> 00:12:47,360 the moment that you're in and this thing that you do, you know, you're eating every day, 241 00:12:47,360 --> 00:12:51,360 but at that moment you're eating something that just makes you very, very happy. 242 00:12:51,360 --> 00:12:55,640 And yeah, and at the, you know, at the same time, because Jess also worked in like, you 243 00:12:55,640 --> 00:13:01,560 know, really high end fine dining restaurants and she cooks at a super high level, but in 244 00:13:01,560 --> 00:13:05,440 a very, in a different style than what you would find in fine dining restaurants. 245 00:13:05,440 --> 00:13:06,720 But the produce is amazing. 246 00:13:06,720 --> 00:13:09,320 The execution is, you know, fantastic. 247 00:13:09,320 --> 00:13:12,520 And she does it with like very limited resources, you know, it's like you say, like the kitchen 248 00:13:12,520 --> 00:13:13,520 is small. 249 00:13:13,520 --> 00:13:15,800 She doesn't have like, you know, a brigade of 12 people behind her. 250 00:13:15,800 --> 00:13:16,800 Yeah. 251 00:13:16,800 --> 00:13:19,360 There's no rash open or circulators or anything like that. 252 00:13:19,360 --> 00:13:20,360 Exactly. 253 00:13:20,360 --> 00:13:21,360 I know what about. 254 00:13:21,360 --> 00:13:22,360 Yeah. 255 00:13:22,360 --> 00:13:23,360 It's like real old school cooking. 256 00:13:23,360 --> 00:13:24,360 Absolutely. 257 00:13:24,360 --> 00:13:25,360 Yeah, absolutely. 258 00:13:25,360 --> 00:13:32,880 And, and yeah, you know, it's like, it's like, there's not a lot of people like, especially 259 00:13:32,880 --> 00:13:38,840 nowadays, like when I come across people that like trial, for example, like to work in my 260 00:13:38,840 --> 00:13:44,080 kitchen, you know, there's so few times that I see somebody who actually knows how to cook, 261 00:13:44,080 --> 00:13:49,140 you know, they know how to replicate certain processes that they've learned somewhere else, 262 00:13:49,140 --> 00:13:54,640 but they usually require very, very specific procedure or very specific equipment. 263 00:13:54,640 --> 00:13:56,760 But then like if they have that, they can do that. 264 00:13:56,760 --> 00:13:58,720 And you're like, okay, that's pretty nice. 265 00:13:58,720 --> 00:14:02,040 But then if you like take them out of their comfort zone and you kind of have to, you 266 00:14:02,040 --> 00:14:06,000 know, wing it, you have to riff it, you know, they're, they're just completely helpless. 267 00:14:06,000 --> 00:14:07,000 Yeah. 268 00:14:07,000 --> 00:14:13,440 I mean, that Gerald's, they ran a leek dish with a sauce, and it was like, she doesn't 269 00:14:13,440 --> 00:14:14,440 have a recipe for sauce. 270 00:14:14,440 --> 00:14:18,280 She just, you know, it's mayonnaise with chopped eggs and capers and whatever pickles got around 271 00:14:18,280 --> 00:14:20,040 and just make it delicious. 272 00:14:20,040 --> 00:14:25,000 And I've worked in restaurants where a recipe for me, there's a recipe for mayonnaise to 273 00:14:25,000 --> 00:14:26,000 like to the gram. 274 00:14:26,000 --> 00:14:27,000 Yeah. 275 00:14:27,000 --> 00:14:28,000 And it's not any knock against that. 276 00:14:28,000 --> 00:14:30,960 Like that's how you get a consistent product. 277 00:14:30,960 --> 00:14:35,440 But I think there's also something very beautiful about, you know, someone tells you to make 278 00:14:35,440 --> 00:14:38,160 a mayonnaise and your first question isn't, do you have a recipe? 279 00:14:38,160 --> 00:14:40,680 It's more like, oh, do you want vinegar in there? 280 00:14:40,680 --> 00:14:41,680 Do you prefer citrus? 281 00:14:41,680 --> 00:14:42,680 Right. 282 00:14:42,680 --> 00:14:44,560 Like you already know how to build the recipe. 283 00:14:44,560 --> 00:14:46,560 You just, there's little things that you need to confirm. 284 00:14:46,560 --> 00:14:48,880 And then you just go and season to taste. 285 00:14:48,880 --> 00:14:52,880 You get it double checked by the boss or whoever, and then you just run with it. 286 00:14:52,880 --> 00:14:53,880 Yeah, absolutely. 287 00:14:53,880 --> 00:14:55,160 I really liked that. 288 00:14:55,160 --> 00:15:00,840 I had a chef ask me the other day if I have a recipe for blanching tomatoes for peeling 289 00:15:00,840 --> 00:15:01,840 them. 290 00:15:01,840 --> 00:15:05,160 And I was like, man, think about it for a second. 291 00:15:05,160 --> 00:15:08,120 And it's kind of like, yes, you know, it's like you get a consistent product, but like 292 00:15:08,120 --> 00:15:15,040 the product is not consistent because like the material, prima is not the same. 293 00:15:15,040 --> 00:15:21,360 And like, that's kind of like what I really like about, you know, sort of like Alain Passard, 294 00:15:21,360 --> 00:15:24,520 you know, who claims that he's never written a recipe. 295 00:15:24,520 --> 00:15:25,680 This is exactly what you say. 296 00:15:25,680 --> 00:15:29,480 It's kind of like, man, I want you to understand where it is that you're heading towards, you 297 00:15:29,480 --> 00:15:31,680 know, and then work with what you have. 298 00:15:31,680 --> 00:15:37,440 And it kind of forces you not to robotically sort of like, you know, follow steps that 299 00:15:37,440 --> 00:15:42,320 somebody else has told you that forces you to really involve yourself or what's in front 300 00:15:42,320 --> 00:15:46,720 of you and really kind of open your mind in a way, right? 301 00:15:46,720 --> 00:15:48,200 Kind of like, is this good? 302 00:15:48,200 --> 00:15:49,200 Yeah. 303 00:15:49,200 --> 00:15:53,920 Yeah, understanding when a process is completed and when something is right, when is the right 304 00:15:53,920 --> 00:15:56,560 point to know it's done, basically. 305 00:15:56,560 --> 00:15:57,560 Yeah. 306 00:15:57,560 --> 00:15:59,800 And you're creeping, like, because it's never really right. 307 00:15:59,800 --> 00:16:00,800 Exactly. 308 00:16:00,800 --> 00:16:01,800 Right. 309 00:16:01,800 --> 00:16:02,800 There's no right or wrong, basically. 310 00:16:02,800 --> 00:16:04,800 I mean, there's no perfect and is right. 311 00:16:04,800 --> 00:16:05,800 Yeah, exactly. 312 00:16:05,800 --> 00:16:09,440 And you could try to creep towards that, like, that like perfect pitch. 313 00:16:09,440 --> 00:16:16,040 I have to bring something out, Phil, about Kevin, something he confessed today. 314 00:16:16,040 --> 00:16:17,560 He says in salad, yes, overrated. 315 00:16:17,560 --> 00:16:21,400 It's just like a tuna mayo with some potatoes in it. 316 00:16:21,400 --> 00:16:22,960 No, as a salad, as a salad. 317 00:16:22,960 --> 00:16:24,120 It's not a salad. 318 00:16:24,120 --> 00:16:25,320 It's not a salad. 319 00:16:25,320 --> 00:16:27,960 It's a mayonnaise salad. 320 00:16:27,960 --> 00:16:32,680 We went to Bar Antonio today on this pinch of crawl and we got the ensaladilla russa and 321 00:16:32,680 --> 00:16:37,960 I looked at it and I'm like, you know, get a big bowl of chips, like potato chips. 322 00:16:37,960 --> 00:16:40,160 And you put it in the middle. 323 00:16:40,160 --> 00:16:41,360 It's a dip. 324 00:16:41,360 --> 00:16:46,000 That's like me and a basketball game, a bowl of chips and a big dip bowl of ensaladilla 325 00:16:46,000 --> 00:16:47,000 russa. 326 00:16:47,000 --> 00:16:48,000 It's delicious. 327 00:16:48,000 --> 00:16:49,000 Don't call it salad, though. 328 00:16:49,000 --> 00:16:50,000 There's vegetables in there. 329 00:16:50,000 --> 00:16:51,000 Yeah. 330 00:16:51,000 --> 00:16:52,000 You know what it is? 331 00:16:52,000 --> 00:16:53,800 It's tonato sauce that hasn't been put through. 332 00:16:53,800 --> 00:16:54,800 That's true. 333 00:16:54,800 --> 00:16:57,800 That's all it is. 334 00:16:57,800 --> 00:17:00,000 It's a bit of a stretch to call it a salad. 335 00:17:00,000 --> 00:17:01,000 Yeah. 336 00:17:01,000 --> 00:17:04,120 I'm never going to get invited to Spain ever again after this goes live. 337 00:17:04,120 --> 00:17:05,880 It's like calling guacamole soup, you know. 338 00:17:05,880 --> 00:17:10,000 It's just a bit of a stretch. 339 00:17:10,000 --> 00:17:14,760 So hey guys, I really want you to tell me about this extravaganza that you had in one 340 00:17:14,760 --> 00:17:16,480 of the Sociedades. 341 00:17:16,480 --> 00:17:17,480 How did that happen? 342 00:17:17,480 --> 00:17:20,960 And maybe Eric, can you explain what a Sociedade is for the uninitiated? 343 00:17:20,960 --> 00:17:21,960 Yeah. 344 00:17:21,960 --> 00:17:26,200 A Sociedade is basically like a dining club. 345 00:17:26,200 --> 00:17:30,000 It's translated literally as a gastronomic society. 346 00:17:30,000 --> 00:17:36,080 But it's the same as when you're a member of a sports club, you go there, you enjoy 347 00:17:36,080 --> 00:17:40,400 the facilities, you have your whatever tennis courts and you play there or your swimming 348 00:17:40,400 --> 00:17:41,840 pool or anything. 349 00:17:41,840 --> 00:17:45,120 But in this case, it's like you have the facilities of a restaurant. 350 00:17:45,120 --> 00:17:49,760 You go in there, you use the kitchen, you invite your friends, you have a dinner party. 351 00:17:49,760 --> 00:17:53,360 And the best part is you just go home and don't have to clean anything. 352 00:17:53,360 --> 00:17:58,960 You have to bring your own food, but you have to buy the drinks inside the Sociedade. 353 00:17:58,960 --> 00:18:04,520 And so Kevin told me to go to do pinches or something and Jose was organizing this dinner 354 00:18:04,520 --> 00:18:06,960 for some Japanese friends. 355 00:18:06,960 --> 00:18:14,920 And I was like, okay, it's very difficult to get invited to one of these if you're not 356 00:18:14,920 --> 00:18:18,560 a local, because it's something you have to know someone. 357 00:18:18,560 --> 00:18:22,320 So I thought it was a super cool opportunity to invite Kevin and he actually had never 358 00:18:22,320 --> 00:18:24,160 been to one. 359 00:18:24,160 --> 00:18:26,200 So we went to do the fish shopping together. 360 00:18:26,200 --> 00:18:30,240 At the beginning I was angry because Jose told me at the last minute, you have to buy 361 00:18:30,240 --> 00:18:31,240 the fish. 362 00:18:31,240 --> 00:18:32,600 And I was like, okay, great. 363 00:18:32,600 --> 00:18:35,560 Why didn't you tell me earlier when the fish mongeries are open? 364 00:18:35,560 --> 00:18:38,360 It was like 6.30 PM when we were getting fish. 365 00:18:38,360 --> 00:18:41,360 This is the last remnants of fish market sale. 366 00:18:41,360 --> 00:18:43,840 He's like, we're going to go get fish together at 6.30. 367 00:18:43,840 --> 00:18:46,400 I'm like, what kind of dining society is this? 368 00:18:46,400 --> 00:18:49,080 Yeah, I had to trashcan. 369 00:18:49,080 --> 00:18:51,880 So we went to La Brecha to the market. 370 00:18:51,880 --> 00:18:52,880 Everything was already closed. 371 00:18:52,880 --> 00:18:57,040 Then we found a fish mongery, fish didn't look so good. 372 00:18:57,040 --> 00:19:03,240 And fortunately, this place in front of McDonald's at the corner, they have really nice stuff, 373 00:19:03,240 --> 00:19:06,600 like whole crabs alive. 374 00:19:06,600 --> 00:19:08,480 They have different types of coccochas. 375 00:19:08,480 --> 00:19:12,760 They have beautiful carabineros, all kinds of nice things. 376 00:19:12,760 --> 00:19:19,600 So we went there, we got some Atlantic hake coccochas and we got some clams. 377 00:19:19,600 --> 00:19:23,480 So when we arrived to the socialite, it was quite funny because Jose was kind of like 378 00:19:23,480 --> 00:19:25,680 leading the whole operation. 379 00:19:25,680 --> 00:19:32,240 And he was like, okay, I have just little experience in restaurants and cooking. 380 00:19:32,240 --> 00:19:38,840 And here my first 10 years today are three ex-Noma and three ex-Mugaritz people. 381 00:19:38,840 --> 00:19:41,960 And we finished everything in seconds, you know, chopping everything, getting everything 382 00:19:41,960 --> 00:19:42,960 ready. 383 00:19:42,960 --> 00:19:43,960 I was like, okay, everything is done. 384 00:19:43,960 --> 00:19:45,760 I don't need to do anything else. 385 00:19:45,760 --> 00:19:51,720 But wasn't there was like a rule, like really you're only allowed two people cooking at 386 00:19:51,720 --> 00:19:53,520 a time or something like that. 387 00:19:53,520 --> 00:19:55,880 And if you're there by yourself, it's not enforced. 388 00:19:55,880 --> 00:20:00,520 But then we had two groups of like older Basque people come in to cook their dinner. 389 00:20:00,520 --> 00:20:02,720 And then we were kind of like, okay, we got to follow the rules now. 390 00:20:02,720 --> 00:20:09,880 And I was, you know, a bunch of us were standing outside watching Eric and Jose cook in the 391 00:20:09,880 --> 00:20:14,320 kitchen and just kind of feeling overall completely useless, but but raiding the mini bar. 392 00:20:14,320 --> 00:20:16,560 Sounds like a pretty good thing. 393 00:20:16,560 --> 00:20:18,520 So what like this is something I didn't know. 394 00:20:18,520 --> 00:20:21,920 So more than one group of people can be in the same society and cook. 395 00:20:21,920 --> 00:20:22,920 Yeah, of course. 396 00:20:22,920 --> 00:20:25,200 I thought it was always like exclusive one group. 397 00:20:25,200 --> 00:20:26,200 No, no, no, no. 398 00:20:26,200 --> 00:20:27,200 It's like a club. 399 00:20:27,200 --> 00:20:30,040 Imagine there's a club and there is a swimming pool, right? 400 00:20:30,040 --> 00:20:32,640 Like everybody's swimming in the swimming pool because everybody's a member. 401 00:20:32,640 --> 00:20:35,600 Now imagine the same like in a kitchen, same principle. 402 00:20:35,600 --> 00:20:36,600 Right? 403 00:20:36,600 --> 00:20:37,600 That makes a lot of sense. 404 00:20:37,600 --> 00:20:41,760 And then naturally as everyone's cooking, everyone's kind of get on the side eye to 405 00:20:41,760 --> 00:20:42,760 what the other groups are doing. 406 00:20:42,760 --> 00:20:46,400 And of course, you know, work on one of the other guys who was cooking with us. 407 00:20:46,400 --> 00:20:48,160 For instance, been on the podcast before it. 408 00:20:48,160 --> 00:20:49,160 Yes. 409 00:20:49,160 --> 00:20:50,160 Yeah, he did the India episode. 410 00:20:50,160 --> 00:20:51,160 Yeah. 411 00:20:51,160 --> 00:20:52,160 Okay. 412 00:20:52,160 --> 00:20:58,840 So friend of the show for con, he told me that you guys did a associate ad the day before 413 00:20:58,840 --> 00:21:01,080 and you made very, very unbasked food. 414 00:21:01,080 --> 00:21:04,440 Like there was like hummus and like curry and things like that. 415 00:21:04,440 --> 00:21:08,440 And it just so happened another group of bass people, members of the club came in and started 416 00:21:08,440 --> 00:21:13,720 cooking and they were just very, very wary of what was going on and your guys sat in 417 00:21:13,720 --> 00:21:14,720 the kitchen. 418 00:21:14,720 --> 00:21:19,920 But yeah, it was really cool to see and see how other people are cooking in different 419 00:21:19,920 --> 00:21:20,920 dishes. 420 00:21:20,920 --> 00:21:25,200 And like that to me is one of the big values is that intermingling of culture just for 421 00:21:25,200 --> 00:21:29,280 me as an outsider, because I don't have a drop of Basque blood in my, in my body. 422 00:21:29,280 --> 00:21:30,480 What about the cheesecake, man? 423 00:21:30,480 --> 00:21:32,360 The cheesecake was a killer. 424 00:21:32,360 --> 00:21:33,920 Was an amazing cheesecake. 425 00:21:33,920 --> 00:21:40,920 I was, it was like one in the morning, I was happily tipsy to say the least. 426 00:21:40,920 --> 00:21:45,140 And Jose does this cheesecake that is lights out the greatest cheesecake I've ever had 427 00:21:45,140 --> 00:21:46,140 in my life. 428 00:21:46,140 --> 00:21:47,140 Really? 429 00:21:47,140 --> 00:21:48,560 That is, that is strong praise. 430 00:21:48,560 --> 00:21:51,120 No, no, it's very, very, very good. 431 00:21:51,120 --> 00:21:53,240 Jose started like a cheesecake startup. 432 00:21:53,240 --> 00:21:57,440 It's called La Vazca and they're a commercial agency in cheesecake only in Columbia, only 433 00:21:57,440 --> 00:21:59,880 in Bogota and Medellin. 434 00:21:59,880 --> 00:22:05,480 And once in a while he cooks one of the, of the, his recipe he developed for these kinds 435 00:22:05,480 --> 00:22:06,480 of occasions. 436 00:22:06,480 --> 00:22:11,640 Or we did like a photo shooting of me walking around for, for like the food tours. 437 00:22:11,640 --> 00:22:13,220 And he also made a cheesecake. 438 00:22:13,220 --> 00:22:15,920 And for me, it's also like top three for sure. 439 00:22:15,920 --> 00:22:16,920 Maybe top one. 440 00:22:16,920 --> 00:22:17,920 Yeah. 441 00:22:17,920 --> 00:22:20,280 Jesus, that is very high praise because there's a lot of good cheesecakes around. 442 00:22:20,280 --> 00:22:21,280 Yeah. 443 00:22:21,280 --> 00:22:24,640 But this one, I mean, he really freaked it out. 444 00:22:24,640 --> 00:22:27,480 Jose's cheesecake, it has a very secret ingredient to it. 445 00:22:27,480 --> 00:22:30,680 And he told us, but I don't know if it's, it's not public knowledge. 446 00:22:30,680 --> 00:22:34,240 No, we should not disclose it only now, not in public. 447 00:22:34,240 --> 00:22:35,240 Yeah. 448 00:22:35,240 --> 00:22:36,240 No, no, no. 449 00:22:36,240 --> 00:22:39,240 You can, you can say it, but we'll bleep it out and then we can, we can all, you know. 450 00:22:39,240 --> 00:22:40,840 Okay, Xander, don't leave this on the show. 451 00:22:40,840 --> 00:22:42,200 This is a secret. 452 00:22:42,200 --> 00:22:43,400 It's not chili crisp guys. 453 00:22:43,400 --> 00:22:45,320 This is proprietary information. 454 00:22:45,320 --> 00:22:50,320 This is the chili crisp moment for David Chang, but for us, we can get an award. 455 00:22:50,320 --> 00:22:55,000 Lao Gan Ma, that's a secret ingredient. 456 00:22:55,000 --> 00:22:56,000 That's good. 457 00:22:56,000 --> 00:22:57,000 Yeah. 458 00:22:57,000 --> 00:23:02,640 But so little, it doesn't taste like you can tell you that in your mouth, but not anyone 459 00:23:02,640 --> 00:23:03,640 else. 460 00:23:03,640 --> 00:23:06,920 It just has this like mysterious base note. 461 00:23:06,920 --> 00:23:09,360 That's like, it grounds the whole thing. 462 00:23:09,360 --> 00:23:10,360 It's so good. 463 00:23:10,360 --> 00:23:14,280 And, and it looks like a Briat savarin or a delistable, like that kind of, when you take 464 00:23:14,280 --> 00:23:19,480 a wedge of a wheel of Briat savarin and they, it's creamy, but it's held together, but like 465 00:23:19,480 --> 00:23:25,120 a stiff breeze would, would knock it over and, and turn it into a puddle. 466 00:23:25,120 --> 00:23:26,120 That's a magical thing. 467 00:23:26,120 --> 00:23:31,960 Not which effect that it's like, you know, like you have like a solid on the bottom and 468 00:23:31,960 --> 00:23:37,000 on the top, but on the middle is creamy, nice and creamy, like a creme patissiere texture. 469 00:23:37,000 --> 00:23:39,240 Yeah, that's really, that's really crucial. 470 00:23:39,240 --> 00:23:42,580 This is like, I mean, like best cheesecake is one of those things that there's such a 471 00:23:42,580 --> 00:23:45,640 fine line between it being raw. 472 00:23:45,640 --> 00:23:50,280 And then there's like a really, there's a really small margin to make it kind of okay. 473 00:23:50,280 --> 00:23:55,200 And then there's a tiny window where it's exceptional and anything past that is really, 474 00:23:55,200 --> 00:23:57,240 really, really, really mediocre. 475 00:23:57,240 --> 00:24:02,340 You know, like if it goes over, it's just like, whatever, you know, it's just like tiny 476 00:24:02,340 --> 00:24:03,400 sort of like window. 477 00:24:03,400 --> 00:24:08,440 If you, if you make the landing, the 10 point landing, you know, like it's magical. 478 00:24:08,440 --> 00:24:09,440 It's like phenomenal. 479 00:24:09,440 --> 00:24:11,560 So Kevin, and what about Echevary? 480 00:24:11,560 --> 00:24:14,200 You were in Echevary yesterday just for pinches. 481 00:24:14,200 --> 00:24:15,560 I know you can get in. 482 00:24:15,560 --> 00:24:16,560 What happened there? 483 00:24:16,560 --> 00:24:22,060 No, so the, the rumors are true, uh, to your listeners that on Sundays, Echevary opens 484 00:24:22,060 --> 00:24:23,960 up the bar area for pinches. 485 00:24:23,960 --> 00:24:30,240 So it seemed like all, I'm getting in trouble here, like all 50 inhabitants of the small 486 00:24:30,240 --> 00:24:37,120 village that Echevary is in go to this bar, which I didn't imagine happening. 487 00:24:37,120 --> 00:24:41,520 So I had reservations at Chispa, which I imagine, but I think we'll talk about that at some 488 00:24:41,520 --> 00:24:43,680 point later in the pod as well. 489 00:24:43,680 --> 00:24:47,320 So I was going to eat at another restaurant in the same tiny village. 490 00:24:47,320 --> 00:24:52,720 And I thought, you know, maybe we could grab a cheeky pincho or two before the meal. 491 00:24:52,720 --> 00:24:58,560 And then we got there and there were like, just a crowd of locals lined up like having 492 00:24:58,560 --> 00:25:02,080 their Sunday, like Sunday, late lazy lunch. 493 00:25:02,080 --> 00:25:07,560 And you know, it was a sunny day and, you know, Phil, you, did we go to Echevary together? 494 00:25:07,560 --> 00:25:10,640 Because you've been to the village, you know, like it's scenic, right? 495 00:25:10,640 --> 00:25:11,640 It's tiny. 496 00:25:11,640 --> 00:25:12,640 It's like two houses in a church. 497 00:25:12,640 --> 00:25:13,640 Yeah. 498 00:25:13,640 --> 00:25:17,760 And then you just, you sit on a rock and then you just look out over like mountains and 499 00:25:17,760 --> 00:25:20,840 valleys and there was like mist around the tops of mountains. 500 00:25:20,840 --> 00:25:22,040 Like it's beautiful. 501 00:25:22,040 --> 00:25:23,040 It's gorgeous. 502 00:25:23,040 --> 00:25:30,480 So yeah, if there's a Sunday possibility, you can get your way into a Chondo area. 503 00:25:30,480 --> 00:25:33,400 I think they're building a train or something to get out there. 504 00:25:33,400 --> 00:25:34,400 No, really? 505 00:25:34,400 --> 00:25:35,400 Yeah. 506 00:25:35,400 --> 00:25:38,560 I don't know how I feel about that because part of the magic of Echevary is it's in the 507 00:25:38,560 --> 00:25:40,880 middle of middle of nowhere. 508 00:25:40,880 --> 00:25:42,320 Yeah, absolutely. 509 00:25:42,320 --> 00:25:45,320 But it was good to like, I saw Mohammed, I saw Moha. 510 00:25:45,320 --> 00:25:47,680 He made sure to come out and say hi to me. 511 00:25:47,680 --> 00:25:48,980 Oh, that's very nice. 512 00:25:48,980 --> 00:25:53,940 He was one of my first friends at Mugarritz when I spoke no Spanish and he was kind enough 513 00:25:53,940 --> 00:25:57,160 to say, I speak English and if you need anything, let me know. 514 00:25:57,160 --> 00:26:01,240 But yeah, I wasn't able to get anything to eat, unfortunately, though. 515 00:26:01,240 --> 00:26:06,000 Two of the companions that I traveled to Achepe with, they were able to get in because they 516 00:26:06,000 --> 00:26:07,920 weren't coming to lunch with us. 517 00:26:07,920 --> 00:26:09,200 And they showed me photos. 518 00:26:09,200 --> 00:26:11,280 It looked insane. 519 00:26:11,280 --> 00:26:14,840 And you can get the famous smoked milk ice cream. 520 00:26:14,840 --> 00:26:15,840 How can you? 521 00:26:15,840 --> 00:26:16,840 In a cone. 522 00:26:16,840 --> 00:26:17,840 As a pincho? 523 00:26:17,840 --> 00:26:18,840 Yes. 524 00:26:18,840 --> 00:26:19,840 That's so nice. 525 00:26:19,840 --> 00:26:20,840 And it's insane. 526 00:26:20,840 --> 00:26:22,920 Like, that's still the greatest dessert I've ever had. 527 00:26:22,920 --> 00:26:23,920 It's really good. 528 00:26:23,920 --> 00:26:26,120 And I had it for the first time in 2012. 529 00:26:26,120 --> 00:26:27,120 And it's insane. 530 00:26:27,120 --> 00:26:28,120 Yeah, absolutely. 531 00:26:28,120 --> 00:26:29,120 Can you describe it? 532 00:26:29,120 --> 00:26:30,120 Like, what is it exactly? 533 00:26:30,120 --> 00:26:39,440 I mean, it's a bowl, like just a big scoop of white ice cream, but it smells smoky in 534 00:26:39,440 --> 00:26:42,160 the most perfect way possible. 535 00:26:42,160 --> 00:26:45,640 It's not overpowering, but it's definitely, you can tell it's smoked. 536 00:26:45,640 --> 00:26:50,400 The texture is like when you when you buy a yogurt at the store, like a little cup of 537 00:26:50,400 --> 00:26:54,240 yogurt and it's got the fruit in the bottom, like the peaches or the strawberries, the 538 00:26:54,240 --> 00:26:55,240 raspberries or whatever. 539 00:26:55,240 --> 00:26:57,580 And you open this cup and the top is like set. 540 00:26:57,580 --> 00:26:58,580 It's like set yogurt. 541 00:26:58,580 --> 00:27:03,880 And then you take the first spoon of that yogurt and then the yogurt kind of turns into, 542 00:27:03,880 --> 00:27:06,880 you know, a liquidy, creamy yogurt texture. 543 00:27:06,880 --> 00:27:12,360 But for one moment it is set like a custard, like barely a trembling custard. 544 00:27:12,360 --> 00:27:17,300 The texture of the ice cream at Echobarri is exactly like that first scoop for the entirety 545 00:27:17,300 --> 00:27:18,440 of eating this ice cream. 546 00:27:18,440 --> 00:27:20,480 Like it's insane. 547 00:27:20,480 --> 00:27:22,360 Whatever they do to get that texture. 548 00:27:22,360 --> 00:27:23,360 I'll never understand it. 549 00:27:23,360 --> 00:27:27,480 I've tried over my career to replicate it and it just disappoints me so many times. 550 00:27:27,480 --> 00:27:36,440 Talking about replicating, what about Chispa replicating Echobarri into the next bit? 551 00:27:36,440 --> 00:27:39,400 What a segue. 552 00:27:39,400 --> 00:27:45,780 So for the, I guess for the listeners out there in the ether who don't know Chispa. 553 00:27:45,780 --> 00:27:52,520 So Chispa is the Basque word for the noise. 554 00:27:52,520 --> 00:27:55,080 The noise that happens when you flick water onto a hot grill. 555 00:27:55,080 --> 00:27:59,360 Like that kind of like, that's why it's called Chispa because of that. 556 00:27:59,360 --> 00:28:00,360 That's the name of that noise. 557 00:28:00,360 --> 00:28:08,200 And at the head chef there is Maeda-san and he's a Japanese chef who worked at Echobarri 558 00:28:08,200 --> 00:28:09,200 for forever. 559 00:28:09,200 --> 00:28:11,520 Like a decade or something, right? 560 00:28:11,520 --> 00:28:14,960 I've met him when he was a star in 2013. 561 00:28:14,960 --> 00:28:18,080 So that's at least how long he's been there. 562 00:28:18,080 --> 00:28:19,080 We met in Old Town. 563 00:28:19,080 --> 00:28:22,080 Back when the Old Town wasn't overrun by tourists. 564 00:28:22,080 --> 00:28:23,080 Exactly. 565 00:28:23,080 --> 00:28:27,480 I have to say in the defense of Old Town, dude, you're in high season. 566 00:28:27,480 --> 00:28:31,080 If you come in December, you can have the same experience of going to Barne Stor and 567 00:28:31,080 --> 00:28:36,760 then to Gambara and then to La Vigna under the rain, of course, but you can do that. 568 00:28:36,760 --> 00:28:41,120 We were in the same nightclub as Juan Mari Arzak actually. 569 00:28:41,120 --> 00:28:43,000 Ah yeah, you told me that story. 570 00:28:43,000 --> 00:28:44,000 That you met... 571 00:28:44,000 --> 00:28:48,800 Well, when Phil was going to Vugaris, he told me, I'm going to meet Juan Mari Arzak and 572 00:28:48,800 --> 00:28:49,800 I'll send you a picture. 573 00:28:49,800 --> 00:28:53,760 And like two weeks later, he sent me a picture with that Mari Arzak. 574 00:28:53,760 --> 00:28:55,600 It happened way too fast. 575 00:28:55,600 --> 00:29:00,040 Was this when we both met him and you said, can you take a photo of me so I could send 576 00:29:00,040 --> 00:29:01,440 it to my friend? 577 00:29:01,440 --> 00:29:03,800 That's exactly it, yes. 578 00:29:03,800 --> 00:29:04,800 That's exactly it. 579 00:29:04,800 --> 00:29:06,600 Yeah, I was a friend. 580 00:29:06,600 --> 00:29:07,600 That's funny. 581 00:29:07,600 --> 00:29:15,600 That just happened live on air, was us connecting those dots because I remember distinctly the 582 00:29:15,600 --> 00:29:19,400 Juan Mari and like a fuzzy sweater with the red lanyard around his neck. 583 00:29:19,400 --> 00:29:23,720 And then Phil wanted a photo and I took the photo to show to Phil's friend. 584 00:29:23,720 --> 00:29:27,320 And now I've met Phil's friend and a decade later. 585 00:29:27,320 --> 00:29:28,320 Amazing. 586 00:29:28,320 --> 00:29:30,000 Was it at the Whiskey Museum? 587 00:29:30,000 --> 00:29:33,640 When I hear that story, I think of the Whiskey Museum because you walk downstairs and there's 588 00:29:33,640 --> 00:29:37,560 like a karaoke and an old guy playing the piano. 589 00:29:37,560 --> 00:29:39,400 This was two separate occasions. 590 00:29:39,400 --> 00:29:44,960 One was that we met Arzak and I feel like it must have been at Gastronomica maybe or 591 00:29:44,960 --> 00:29:45,960 something like that. 592 00:29:45,960 --> 00:29:49,080 Yeah, because you had some credentials I remember in the picture. 593 00:29:49,080 --> 00:29:50,880 It was Dia Logos de Cocina. 594 00:29:50,880 --> 00:29:52,960 Oh yes, yes you're right. 595 00:29:52,960 --> 00:29:55,440 We weren't at Muggerwitz the same time for a Gastronomica. 596 00:29:55,440 --> 00:30:00,220 I think you were there for the one after I started because I left in August or something 597 00:30:00,220 --> 00:30:03,480 before Gastronomica when you were there. 598 00:30:03,480 --> 00:30:10,320 And then on a separate occasion I met Maeda-san, we're going back to Chispa now, and Von Murray 599 00:30:10,320 --> 00:30:20,240 Arzak who was very very drunk and tried to chat up Tess in like some cellar dance. 600 00:30:20,240 --> 00:30:22,240 Yeah he has a reputation. 601 00:30:22,240 --> 00:30:26,080 I mean good on him. 602 00:30:26,080 --> 00:30:27,540 Good on him, yeah. 603 00:30:27,540 --> 00:30:28,540 You go Von Murray. 604 00:30:28,540 --> 00:30:29,540 Yeah Chispa. 605 00:30:29,540 --> 00:30:37,200 But I guess to bring it back to Chispa, so he's this chef who spent years and years and 606 00:30:37,200 --> 00:30:43,400 years under the tutelage of Bitor at Echibari learning all the techniques and the ingredients 607 00:30:43,400 --> 00:30:46,160 and products and the dishes. 608 00:30:46,160 --> 00:30:53,940 And I mean it's tough to decipher what is rumor and what is truth but currently there's 609 00:30:53,940 --> 00:31:00,000 a bit of a rift between Echibari and Chispa because I heard that, and this is all hearsay 610 00:31:00,000 --> 00:31:04,560 at this point, it's just rumors from other chefs or cooks so like Sander you can leave 611 00:31:04,560 --> 00:31:07,320 this in or leave it out if you guys decide whatever. 612 00:31:07,320 --> 00:31:11,400 No no no we actually talked about this on the last episode you have probably not hear 613 00:31:11,400 --> 00:31:17,520 it because it went out on air today but we mentioned this and then we actually verified 614 00:31:17,520 --> 00:31:24,720 with some newspaper articles where Bitor mentions this that he was actually angry about the 615 00:31:24,720 --> 00:31:25,720 whole thing. 616 00:31:25,720 --> 00:31:29,400 Not that, I mean they greet each other but there is like a tension you know. 617 00:31:29,400 --> 00:31:35,320 But alright so you guys talked about how there's the whole thing Echibari will close when Bitor 618 00:31:35,320 --> 00:31:41,600 retires and Maeda-san was like if you retire can I take over Echibari and keep the restaurant 619 00:31:41,600 --> 00:31:47,080 open under the name Echibari and Bitor said you know when I retire Echibari goes with 620 00:31:47,080 --> 00:31:57,720 me so to keep up what he loved doing Tetsuo, Maeda opened Chispa up the hill, up the massive 621 00:31:57,720 --> 00:32:02,600 hill like I was out of breath for like the 9 minute climb was like vertical almost to 622 00:32:02,600 --> 00:32:03,600 get to this restaurant. 623 00:32:03,600 --> 00:32:08,160 So to give it like a more like a kung fu vibe that you have to climb up the mountain to 624 00:32:08,160 --> 00:32:10,200 get the chuleta on top of the mountain. 625 00:32:10,200 --> 00:32:15,960 I was like sweating afterwards and like you get there and there's no sign but there's 626 00:32:15,960 --> 00:32:21,000 a small one-star Michelin plaque and we're like looking at the building and the host 627 00:32:21,000 --> 00:32:29,960 opens the door and I went with Kevin Patricio who's the co-owner, owner, like one of the 628 00:32:29,960 --> 00:32:36,800 founder of Baspland Brewery and we both asked the host to give us like five minutes to just 629 00:32:36,800 --> 00:32:37,800 like catch our breath. 630 00:32:37,800 --> 00:32:41,920 We just climbed the chuleta Everest. 631 00:32:41,920 --> 00:32:43,480 And you can't drive there. 632 00:32:43,480 --> 00:32:46,080 How do the suppliers go in there? 633 00:32:46,080 --> 00:32:51,120 No like we walked up a road you can drive there but our taxi let us off at Echibari 634 00:32:51,120 --> 00:32:56,240 because we were going to see if we could get a pincha. 635 00:32:56,240 --> 00:33:03,240 And like the regular people drove up and we highly considered like is it bad form to try 636 00:33:03,240 --> 00:33:04,920 to hitchhike your way up the hill? 637 00:33:04,920 --> 00:33:09,200 Like if you know there's a table it's gonna like cabs past us right like if you turn around 638 00:33:09,200 --> 00:33:13,480 stick your thumb out and you know like explain to them like we're going to the same place 639 00:33:13,480 --> 00:33:18,320 and it's so hot and sweaty out here can we just share the cab for 25 seconds to get us 640 00:33:18,320 --> 00:33:19,320 up the hill? 641 00:33:19,320 --> 00:33:24,840 I'm sure that would have been a nice moment but yeah so we got to the restaurant we had 642 00:33:24,840 --> 00:33:27,680 an amazing lunch. 643 00:33:27,680 --> 00:33:32,960 One of my main concerns about dining at Chispa was I was not worried but I was in my mind 644 00:33:32,960 --> 00:33:37,680 it was like ah you know there's a chance that it could be just at Echibari all over again 645 00:33:37,680 --> 00:33:44,760 and I've had the I'm very aware of my fortune to have been able to eat at Echibari twice 646 00:33:44,760 --> 00:33:45,760 in my life. 647 00:33:45,760 --> 00:33:50,120 I know I understand there are a lot of people out there who have never eaten there and some 648 00:33:50,120 --> 00:33:54,800 of whom may never eat there depending on when if and when Vito retires. 649 00:33:54,800 --> 00:33:59,040 So it's very first world problem of me to be like oh you know I'm really worried that 650 00:33:59,040 --> 00:34:02,800 this new restaurant is going to be just a copy of the number two best restaurant in 651 00:34:02,800 --> 00:34:05,200 the world. 652 00:34:05,200 --> 00:34:12,120 But I understood that the chef was Japanese and you know I spent time in Japan for the 653 00:34:12,120 --> 00:34:15,840 Noma pop-up in Kyoto and I'm going back to Japan at the end of this month for six months 654 00:34:15,840 --> 00:34:16,960 for the next pop-up. 655 00:34:16,960 --> 00:34:24,680 So I was really hoping for Echibari but through the lens of a Japanese chef who learned these 656 00:34:24,680 --> 00:34:30,040 techniques knows these products like the back of his hand but also has you know arguably 657 00:34:30,040 --> 00:34:38,600 one of the richest culinary cultures as his heritage and it was exactly everything I wanted 658 00:34:38,600 --> 00:34:40,080 in that meal. 659 00:34:40,080 --> 00:34:47,000 Like there was obviously a lot of Basque influence, Basque ingredients but then like he did you 660 00:34:47,000 --> 00:34:54,000 know I've got the menu in front of me and there's like he did eel like unagi. 661 00:34:54,000 --> 00:35:00,440 Yeah some pictures he's also doing like nigiri and chawanmushi and traditional Japanese stuff 662 00:35:00,440 --> 00:35:01,440 right? 663 00:35:01,440 --> 00:35:06,840 Yeah like the I mean the eel he did kabayaki so you know the usual way you would cook eel 664 00:35:06,840 --> 00:35:13,160 in Japan but with a glaze of apple fermented apple and apple vinegar that he made himself 665 00:35:13,160 --> 00:35:16,560 like he's doing a lot of fermentations himself he makes koji himself in the farmstead that 666 00:35:16,560 --> 00:35:20,160 he's housed the restaurant in. 667 00:35:20,160 --> 00:35:26,480 There was also yeah like it's it's Gisante's season so it's English pea season and Echibari 668 00:35:26,480 --> 00:35:32,320 a very famous way they serve it is grilled in the little sieve on top of the charcoal 669 00:35:32,320 --> 00:35:37,160 just to warm them and then dressed with maybe a little bit of olive oil sea salt and some 670 00:35:37,160 --> 00:35:41,560 onion flowers or something like that and it's incredible and I've had that dish both times. 671 00:35:41,560 --> 00:35:47,120 I've been able to go to Echibari and this time around at Chispa we also got a bowl that 672 00:35:47,120 --> 00:35:52,680 looked like exactly the same a bowl of Gisante's lagrima but he explained it he said underneath 673 00:35:52,680 --> 00:35:59,800 the peas he's got a chawanmushi of clams so he steamed the chawanmushi perfectly like 674 00:35:59,800 --> 00:36:07,360 the wibbliest wobbliest chawanmushi you've ever had that tasted like clam liquor and 675 00:36:07,360 --> 00:36:11,280 then hid it up from sight underneath a layer of perfectly grilled peas and to me that was 676 00:36:11,280 --> 00:36:16,160 like the perfect you know this is a tribute to where I came from but also I'm putting 677 00:36:16,160 --> 00:36:20,840 my own stamp on it because this is where I'm truly from in Japan. 678 00:36:20,840 --> 00:36:28,720 He also had to explain to Spanish people what a chawanmushi was which was quite funny because 679 00:36:28,720 --> 00:36:33,720 it was yeah I was going to explain probably a lot of people in our audience don't know 680 00:36:33,720 --> 00:36:38,680 chawanmushi is like a savory custard and the texture is similar to a creme caramel like 681 00:36:38,680 --> 00:36:43,840 a flan like that thing that you could break with a spoon but it's savory yeah instead 682 00:36:43,840 --> 00:36:49,360 of dairy you use broth like you would use a mixture of dashi and for in this instance 683 00:36:49,360 --> 00:36:54,360 he used clam liquor and things like that but he explained it to the guests like it's like 684 00:36:54,360 --> 00:37:01,600 a flan it's like a flan but you don't have sugar or salt and the people were just very 685 00:37:01,600 --> 00:37:05,440 confused by the concept of a salty flan. 686 00:37:05,440 --> 00:37:07,560 That's so that's so Japanese of him in a way. 687 00:37:07,560 --> 00:37:10,160 You see but I said the same thing you know. 688 00:37:10,160 --> 00:37:16,600 I mean if you think about it like this like Basque cooking it has a lot of parallels with 689 00:37:16,600 --> 00:37:20,480 like this really puristic Japanese cooking and I feel like that's like a when I saw it 690 00:37:20,480 --> 00:37:23,960 at the open is on restaurant I was like man that's that's super cool. 691 00:37:23,960 --> 00:37:29,600 I would have hoped for exactly what you described you know this is you know Basque produce inspiration 692 00:37:29,600 --> 00:37:37,640 and just like raw mythical feel of this Basque mountain grilling style of cooking and with 693 00:37:37,640 --> 00:38:00,760 the with the Japanese sensibility you know that's all super super nice.