Hi everyone, welcome to potluck food talks.
I'm Eric and I'm here with Phil, my brother from different mother and father.
Coincidentally, yes.
How are you doing, man?
Yeah, we're very good.
How are you?
Good, man, good.
If you hear me hectic scribbling, it is because I am working on the thing that we're going
to be talking about, which is giving me a real headache.
I was thinking the topic for today could be advice for chefs.
There was a chapter on Bourdain's book that was, so you want to be a chef?
We could call the episode something like that.
Oh yeah, that's a good idea.
I feel like as an audience for this sort of thing, I feel like a lot of people have a
lot of, I mean, I'm sure it was the same.
I don't know how it was for you.
Did you have a lot of doubts how you would approach your journey as a chef or it just
kind of happened?
I remember I was really interested in reading biographies of chefs, not only recipes and
cookbooks, but also knowing their life tracks, but also because I had this curiosity in general,
you know, like if I like an artist or a film director or whatever, for me it's always interesting
to understand how they made it.
And yeah, and there was no exception with cooking.
So I read quite a few biographies, but also this kind of advice, sometimes interviews.
So I can go with the first one.
A first good advice I would say is be kind, don't be an asshole.
That's a good, good advice.
You want to elaborate on that?
Yeah, sure.
Like, I mean, it's so easy and sometimes attempting to be an asshole, especially when you see
someone doing something wrong or having a wrong attitude.
But for example, I think like a very positive influence I had on this matter was Nanny Lassa,
who was like one of the chefs at Mugaritz.
And that guy was incredibly calm and he would always ask with good manners and keep a tone
and stay calm.
And I really admire that.
And I think that's like a super positive quality to have in a job.
Yeah, totally.
I totally agree with you.
You know, I, when I was younger, I, you know, I was very passionate about the job.
And I also, I came out of kitchens where it was very tough.
And so when somebody made a mistake, I, for some reason, like, like on one side, I didn't
really understand it when people didn't take it seriously.
And I was like, man, you're like, you're making a mistake.
It's just like wrong.
And somebody's telling you it's wrong.
Like you should take it and like, take it seriously, not be like aloof about it and
be like, oh yeah, whatever, you know, it's still fine.
And it's a, it's a, it's a fine line between caring about something and applying yourself
and being an asshole, you know, because I think one aspect of that is very important.
It's very important to take what you're doing seriously and with seriously, I don't mean
be very serious about it.
You know, I mean, you know, really, if you're already taking the time to do it, you know,
do it properly and do it with passion and with soul and, you know, apply yourself and
put yourself into it.
Because if you don't, then what the fuck are you doing it for?
And it's like an office job.
You're clocking in, you're clocking out, super depressing.
But at the same time, you know, don't get caught up in all this like weird little bullshit.
At the end of the day, whatever you're doing should be for your enjoyment also.
And that's also, you know, enjoyment is not just sitting on the couch.
Enjoyment is also straining yourself and striving and trying to achieve and nurturing people.
And that's also enjoyment.
And don't take it too seriously, you know, if of course there's a lot of stressful aspects,
but just try to see the bigger picture, try to see where the enjoyment is, because that's
also going to give you the most benefit out of the process that you're in.
Yeah, like, like on the same line of thought, I think it's, it's also important to understand
what your motivation is.
You remember those letters that you get when you go to Mugaritz that they write, have very
clear why you're coming here.
So you can remember that in the hardest moments.
I think that's, that's something you should take like in general, not only for being in
like, like in a specific restaurant, but like having a vision or a motivation, which is
not, not anything else, but the narrative that shapes your roadmap, your tree of decisions,
you know, like what do you like, what not, what kind of places you like and which not,
you know, like in our own thought building like a style, a vision that could later translate
into, into your own personal brand or your company or whatever, you know, like, yeah,
that's something no, nobody's going to help you on that.
That's your business.
You have to figure it out yourself.
Absolutely.
And also you talked about people criticizing other people's.
I think it's very, very important to be open to criticism.
Of course it's important also to, you know, to save someone to stop if there is an abusive
behavior, but also on the other side, I think there's a difference between that and being
just a victimized crybaby.
Oh yeah, for sure.
So in respecting that middle point, I think it's also key, you know, like making like
a big drama because someone told you, you did something wrong.
Then that's your problem, not the other person's problem, you know?
No, absolutely.
And I think that's such a great point to make.
You really need to be real with yourself, you know?
Like show up before anything, show up for yourself and tell yourself the truth.
Like you would tell your best friend.
Sometimes we need people to tell us how things really are, you know, because you get so caught
up in our own bullshit and our own minds and our own little perception of things, you know,
it's very, very important to be super honest with yourself.
And you know, like very close friends, if they see their close friend doing something
that is really stupid and not okay, they're going to take that person and be like, hey
bro, that's fucked up what you just did.
Like, that's not okay.
You know, what's going on with you?
And that's okay.
That's fine because that's good for you, you know?
And it happens to everybody.
It's not the end of the world.
It's not like everybody's going to turn their back on you.
It's very important to do that with yourself, you know?
Really as important to stick up for yourself, you know, especially when we're talking about
kitchens and there's subjects like, you know, an abusive environment, et cetera, you know,
the constant topics that we're talking about in gastronomy.
But be real with yourself and think to yourself, okay, because it's very easy to fall and very
comfortable to fall into the victim position of being like, oh, no, I'm not going to do
this because this and this didn't agree with me.
It's kind of like, well, is it valid?
Or are you actually doing you a disservice and everybody else who is in an actually horrible
situation a disservice?
Yeah, like another one I would say is knowledge reigns supreme.
Like, you need to get as much knowledge as you can, like understanding ingredients and
processes, techniques.
And today there are so endless resources for it.
Like it was pretty hard to find videos when I started, you know, and now you have YouTube
and you can check whatever.
There are also so many platforms like, I don't know, like Chef Steps and these kinds of things,
Gromda, you know, like where you can get like master classes from master chefs.
That's, if I would be on my apprentice stage, I would take advantage of all of those resources
for sure.
Oh yeah, absolutely.
Absolutely.
And I think kind of tying into that is sort of like, you know, give things time.
You know, I feel like everybody, especially nowadays, and I know that I was at fault with
that also is that people just try to rush through, you know, I mean, things take time
and you know, to be, to become, I mean, just thinking that if you're a chef, you want to
become a head chef at some point, you know, that takes time.
It's a long process and there's a lot of skills attached to it.
Like, of course you can be a head chef standing at the pass and calling out tickets, but being
a head chef or any sort of like senior chefs, you know, person working in gastronomy, is
such a wide skillset that you need to have, you know, cooking is just the start of it.
And that takes time.
So give yourself that time, don't rush the process, really internalize and repeat the
things that you should be really, really exceptional at.
Right?
So of course, you know, you should be a very, very exceptional cook.
What does that mean?
That means that you should work all the stations in the restaurants and learn every aspect
of what it means to be a chef.
It's impossible to learn everything, of course.
But say you pick one restaurant where you like the style of food that they do.
You work the garde-manger, you work the entre-mete, you work the sauce here in postionne, you
work the pâtisserie, maybe you are too norf for a little bit, whatever.
Really internalize all those aspects.
Because at one point you're not going to be cooking there anymore, but you need to understand
everything that's going on there.
And then that's just the cooking part.
Then everything else comes to financial side, the organizational side, the creative side,
and then the humanitarian side, the social aspect of working with people.
It's so, so important.
I feel like probably 80% of people rush through this understanding before they become a leader.
They know how to cook and then they take on leadership without knowing how to manage.
I was one of those people.
No, absolutely.
I think you should build a knowledge taxonomy.
When I started there weren't online drives where you can have everything and lose your
computer and still have everything online.
I would definitely have something like that with folders.
And at the same time, I think it's also important not to saturate yourself.
It's not the same having one single book and knowing it pretty well before you go to the
next one or having a folder with 2000 books you haven't read and you don't even know
what the content is.
You know, like that's, which is pretty common because there is a lot of ebook smuggling
in the chef's world.
And you'll end up with a folder with 2000 books you haven't read.
And that's also okay.
But I mean, like do the learning properly.
And also if I have, if I would recommend one knowledge that you should really master, even
though it's the most boring one, it would be like cost control and management.
Like that will get you a job much more than being super creative.
You know, like someone who hires a chef will take creativity for granted, but they will
really dig into that how much you understand about processing the costs.
And this is one of the main reasons why some restaurants fail and close.
It's because they're not doing the whole financial management right.
Yeah, yeah.
Absolutely.
Absolutely right.
And you know, with what you just said, with this like vast amount of knowledge that you
can have, you know, I often think that becoming a chef is kind of like signing up for a martial
arts, you know, like you decide, okay, I want to train this martial art and you come in,
you get your white jacket and you get your white belt, right?
Your white belt.
And you have to, you have to visit some Kung Fu masters and, and farm mountains to learn
how to do like a secret punch, right?
Yeah.
If you want to be the real, you know, if you want to be the real G, then that's what you
do.
But even if you just want to be in your dojo and you want to just like, you know, carry
on in the beginning, you get the white belt, you know, and you learn the basics and you
practice the basics and you repeat them, repeat them until you are solid at them.
And then maybe get promoted for next belt, you know, and then, but you'll keep adding
new techniques to your repertoire, right?
But you will keep repeating the foundations, the fundamentals and really honing them.
And anybody who's trained a little bit of martial arts knows that any martial art, you
know, knows that it's a fundamental, it's a very fundamental truth that the basic techniques
studied and honed and executed with a razor sharp edge, one of the highest skill levels
that you can have.
For sure.
And of course you can add really fancy throws and flips and kicks and whatever, you know,
and that's very cool.
That's very great.
But that's nothing without the fundamentals.
And I feel like a lot of people forget that, you know, if I step into the kitchen and I
cook something, I have the criteria for myself and the standard that I wanted to be better
than the guy who's cooking in my team on that section.
Not because of ego, but because of I need to keep my skill level at a certain level
so that the people who are working with me have somebody who can teach them something,
you know, where there's still a little bit of room for improvement.
And if that's not there, maybe that's there in some other aspects.
You know, I also, you know, I've worked with people who were much better at certain things
than me, obviously, but maybe there's other things that I can give them, you know, maybe
it's in the creativity part, maybe it's in the managerial part, you know, but that always
needs to, you always need to stay fresh and you just stay sharp.
And I mean like knowing the foundations, but also you can get knowledge, like culinary
knowledge from so many sources.
You know, you can ask the dishwasher working at your restaurant from traditional recipes
from his or her country.
You know, you can ask your friend's mother for traditional recipes.
And besides that, like having a repertoire of classics and understanding, classic techniques,
which I think it's a super-passionating word in itself.
I think it's also, you should know at least a few of the Michael Jordans in the game.
You know, like I recently saw an interview with Albert Adria.
He was doing a pop-up with Alain Ducasse in Paris.
And one of the apprentices working there that came from one of the Ducasse culinary schools
tells Albert how to properly hold the chip on wood.
You know, like, no, no, you don't hold it like this.
You know, like-
Oh my God.
Imagine.
If you're at an event cooking with Albert Adria, you should do some basic checking about
who that guy is.
You know, I really think you should do those things.
I had the opportunity, I work in a restaurant, like the first restaurant where I was an apprentice,
they would bring some, you know, some famous chefs from Spain to do like dinners or like
special dinners and forehands and so on.
And I mean, like at least check out on Wikipedia, you know, what they've done.
Perhaps he invented that thing you're correcting him about or was part of the development of
it.
No, a hundred percent.
Absolutely.
It's like, you know, be humble.
It's just in general.
I think it's like a general life thing and it's a thing that's thrown around a lot, you
know, but like it's kind of what I said earlier, don't take it too serious.
Don't take yourself too seriously.
You know, have a shokunin mindset, a beginner's mindset, and that's going to bring you really,
really far.
And if you're not taking things too like seriously and you're taking things humbly, you're opening
yourself to the ability of infinite knowledge and wisdom that's coming at you, you know,
from any source, you know, and you're allowing yourself the ability to constantly change
and constantly adapt because if you're like stiff, convinced that the way that you're
filleting this fish is the best way ever, you know, then you're not going to move.
You're stationary like a rock.
But if you allow yourself to, if you don't have that and if you're easy breezy about
it, you can basically go wherever, you know.
My last advice would be avoid toxic lifestyles on the long run.
Like, of course, there is going to be like a lot of drinking and partying and that kind
of things, but that's not sustainable over decades.
I mean, like if you do that while you're young every day, fine.
If you do that every day after you're 40, maybe, you know, you'll die young and that's
all.
If you want to do that, that's fine.
Yeah.
I love how you're ending this advice on basically like a stay away from drugs kids.
But obviously like you're right, you know, you're absolutely right.
I think.
No, I didn't say stay away from drugs.
I say don't get too deep into them.
Okay, okay.
I see.
I'm sorry.
I'm sorry for twisting your words.
But yeah, it's a toxic lifestyle, you know, for me, a toxic lifestyle starts in your mind
also.
And that's why I said, you know, this is kind of the advice that I could give is kind of
the advice that I give myself sometimes is, you know, like remember why you got into it,
you know, with all the bullshit that can be involved in everyday life and in this job,
you know, remember why originally you chose to go into this job, which is very beautiful,
you know, you're working with your hands, you're working with the seasons, you're creating
every day.
You have the ability to learn something all the time and the opportunity to improve yourself
every single day and you get to work with people that you can bounce your creativity
off and you could work off of.
It's a very, very rewarding thing to do.
And it's a very rewarding thing to spend your life doing really.
And don't get dragged down because, you know, it's only up to how you approach it and what
your attitude towards it.
Should we do the draft now?
Yeah, let's do it.
I've been thinking about this a lot.
So I prepared, I prepared to the, so what are the rules?
Okay, first a little bit of context.
So in a question that a listener has posted, he challenged us to make up our dream team,
our A team of chefs, our dream, dream brigade.
How did he call it?
The draft dream, dream brigade's draft.
Yeah, something like that.
Yeah.
So obviously what is it?
We have positions to fill.
We have the CDC chef, the cuisine sous chef, portioner, socié, which is so, it's so
it's like sauces and meat, entre métiers, garde-manger, pastry and production.
Okay.
I did, I did, I did two different.
I did one, like the historical one, like the, the dream team of all times.
There are no time barriers.
It can be chefs that have died with chefs that are alive, the limpos of chefs.
And the other one is like contemporary and friends.
I would say most of them, I know them.
I think there is only one that I, it's not like a friend, but I've talked with him once.
And, and yeah.
So you want to go first or should I go first?
I have one, one position that I'm sure, cause I had an initial team and now I've changed
a couple of details about it.
Okay.
Actually, no.
Okay.
I think I have my, my team.
Do we go position by position or do we say the whole team?
I'll say the whole team.
Okay.
Good.
Okay.
I'll start with a, so you can gain more time also.
All right.
Thank you.
So the historical one, chef, the cuisine, not like head chef, like master in command
is Kofi.
I think, I think if that guy was running brigades with hundreds of chefs a hundred years ago
and he had like this quote where he said during service, I only want to listen to, to the
sweet sound of my voice.
I think that guy knew thing or two about how he actually implemented the whole brigade
system.
Was it him or, or he probably, that was him.
Yeah.
He probably formalized it.
Yeah.
Probably already existed somehow, but he made it like a thing, like a method.
Yeah.
Nice.
Good choice.
So that would be my, my super head chef.
Sous chef would be Thomas Keller kind of similar profile.
I think so the choice.
Yeah.
And I named a pasta chef apart from the end of it here.
I don't know if Nadia Santini or Waltiero Marchesi, like two, maybe Nadia because you
know, like a non-nav in making pasta.
That's very cool.
Properly.
That's very cool.
For the pizza, I went to like an apostate of traditional pizza, which is Wolfgang Puck.
Pizza?
I did a pizza station.
Yeah.
And my super restaurant is a pizza station.
Okay.
All right.
Well, you're having Wolfgang Puck as your pizza chef?
He is like a renowned, he implemented like this California style of pizza.
Oh, come on.
He's got one like salmon cream fresh pizza that he's famous for.
But okay.
Okay.
Hey, it's my, it's my draft.
Yeah.
I know.
It's yours.
Your dream restaurant.
I was thinking between Seiji Yamamoto, you know, because of racial profiling, having
like a Japanese.
Of course.
Yes.
Of course.
Or Josh Neeland.
Solid choice.
Very good choice.
Yes.
Of course.
The fucking fish wizard.
And for the grill, because I know who you're having on the grill, I would choose, man,
I don't know the name of this guy, but I see it because it's this super long Basque family
name, but the chef at Casa Julian, you know, it's Gocho Parthegui or something like that.
Oh, yeah.
I know which one you mean.
Oh, grill.
Yeah.
You know, I've said I've been to Casa Julian.
Me neither, but I really, I really like like the whole concept of it.
Yeah.
Yeah, me too.
I want someone very technical and someone who really can standardize everything, but
at the same time be creative and audacious.
So I choose Heston Blumenthal as my associate.
Oh, as associate.
Really?
Wow.
Garde manger, Andoni from Margarit.
I think he can deal with vegetables pretty well.
Ante-Rometier could also be the garde manger easily.
I choose Alan Passard.
Yeah, of course.
Very, very good choice.
Patricier Pierre-Ame.
R&D Albert Adria.
And production, I want someone who, you know, who injects fuel to the whole production.
So I choose Marco Pierre White.
I can really see him as a good production chef.
And that's it.
That's it.
We can save the other draft for a different episode to not make it so long, the one with
Contemporary and Friends.
Okay.
All right.
So you also have more time to write yours.
Okay.
Yeah.
Because I only have like an A-Team draft, you know?
Okay.
All right.
So my A-Team draft is Chef de Cuisine Pierre Agni.
Ah, that's a crazy kitchen.
Nice.
I like it.
Because I just love his energy and I feel like he'd bring a really good vibe and he'd
tie the team together.
He's like a crazy jazz freestylist, right?
Yeah, exactly.
I wouldn't necessarily want him having a running section, but I think if people play the ball
towards him, he's really good.
Yeah.
Like a Charlie Parker of cooking.
Yeah.
As my sous chef, I would want Daniel Kalbhurt.
Okay.
He's actually also a Thomas Keller alumni from Per Se.
I mean, he's from Cezanne in the Four Seasons in Tokyo and he's like a super perfectionistic,
you know, just like a Shaolin monk of cooking.
So I feel like he'd be a perfect sous chef.
As a porcelainier, I chose, I made some changes to my original draft.
As a porcelainier, I choose Josh Nyland.
Yeah, nice.
Because he'll just send me, you know, he'll just send me these like perfectly cut, fucking
perfectly cooked, crispy pieces of fish and I'll just be happy.
Very happy.
These like triangular pieces of perfect fish skin.
Ah, love this guy.
All right.
So grill, I have Vitor Argin Sonis, or how his surname is from Echibarri.
And as a sautier, rote seur for every other sort of meat and sauces, I've got a lot of
pasta.
Okay.
Nice, nice, nice.
I liked, I liked.
Everybody thinks, you know, you put a lot of pasta on vegetables, but no, no, no.
Yeah, I saw the Frankenstein he did recently.
Oh, but did you see the video with the lamb and the pigeon?
Yeah, I saw you posted it.
Super nice.
Oh my God.
I was so upset because I started watching it.
I was like, man, this guy, he's lost it.
He's crazy.
And then he cuts it and it's just fucking perfection.
And you're like, man, you can't be, you can't listen.
He's a genius.
He's an absolute genius.
The first time I knew about him and my life was this Iron Chef episode, the France special
one.
Yeah.
And yeah, and I remember him cooking a chicken in a very special way in that one.
Probably with hay and stuff.
Yeah.
Exactly.
Yeah.
He's, I think like when you see stuff like that, I really, I remember watching the video
and I was actually very moved because you know, it's like very easy to make fun of him
these days with his like chimera creations.
But I saw that video and I was like, he's just on a different level.
He's just, he is a culinary genius anyway.
So our Mathieu, our Mathieu, I've got Michel Bra.
Very good.
Yeah.
Nice.
I like you.
I like your draft better than mine actually.
Oh, I see.
And on Garde Manger, I have one of my all time favorite chefs and author of one of my
absolutely favorite cookbooks, Pascal Babou.
Nice, nice, nice, nice.
Very French.
Your draft is super French.
Very Parisian actually.
You have like at least five chefs from Paris.
Yeah.
I realized that also.
Okay.
Well, I'll break the mold.
On pastry, I would like somebody a little bit, um, oh, actually now I'm thinking about
it.
Just in this moment, I changed my mind about pastry.
I want on pastry.
I want Espen Holborn-Bang from Maimo.
Okay.
Norwegian.
Okay.
Yes.
This is exactly the style of pastry that I like.
I don't know this guy.
You can make some waffles with cloudberry jam.
You don't know this guy?
Espen?
No, I'll have to check out.
But you know, Maimo, right?
Yes, of course.
Yeah.
And that's it for me.
That's my draft.
I don't have a production chef yet.
I can't decide.
In the next episode, we do one with contemporary chefs and friends.
Okay.
All right.
It has to be people, you know, people, you know, or you work with, or at least talk to.
Well, that's easy enough.
That's easy enough.
That's it for this week's episode of potluck food talks.
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