1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:10,400 Hi everyone, welcome to Potluck Food Talks. Today we have a very special guest, Leslie 2 00:00:10,400 --> 00:00:12,920 Wong from Taiwan. Hi Leslie. 3 00:00:12,920 --> 00:00:13,920 Hello Eric. 4 00:00:13,920 --> 00:00:19,880 We've been talking online via chats for a couple of years. I remember when I was in 5 00:00:19,880 --> 00:00:25,480 Bolivia I saw your work. Well, first of all, let me present Leslie. She's an illustration 6 00:00:25,480 --> 00:00:32,560 artist focused on food and gastronomy. So she travels, she draws street foods or dishes 7 00:00:32,560 --> 00:00:37,960 and drinks from the places she visits. My first question would be, Leslie, how did you 8 00:00:37,960 --> 00:00:45,160 start drawing? What got you into the world of, in the broad term, just drawing and illustration 9 00:00:45,160 --> 00:00:48,920 before food? Or were the two things together from the very beginning? 10 00:00:48,920 --> 00:00:56,240 Well, I was studying art school actually when I was in elementary school in Trinidad High. 11 00:00:56,240 --> 00:01:04,200 But after I didn't study art anymore after I go to the college. However, I still really 12 00:01:04,200 --> 00:01:11,620 like to work on something visual. So during the studies, I always drawing and sketching 13 00:01:11,620 --> 00:01:16,400 on my notebooks. But what I draw is about what I'm going to eat later. 14 00:01:16,400 --> 00:01:18,400 That's how it started. 15 00:01:18,400 --> 00:01:23,960 Yeah, that's a diary and like what I ate for breakfast, lunch and dinner. And that's starting 16 00:01:23,960 --> 00:01:30,800 to become a habit of just recording the food that I ate for four years during the college 17 00:01:30,800 --> 00:01:37,560 of time. And then I started to realize that this is drawing is something I'm really passionate 18 00:01:37,560 --> 00:01:45,480 about. And so I started to apply to the grad school to United States study environmental 19 00:01:45,480 --> 00:01:53,240 graphic design. And another passion of mine is about gastronomy. So there are opportunity 20 00:01:53,240 --> 00:02:01,800 to go to Gustu, working with NGO with our university workshops, like summer workshop. 21 00:02:01,800 --> 00:02:08,960 That's why I get into know about what fine dining is about and what the food world is 22 00:02:08,960 --> 00:02:14,660 about. So I didn't have any background about food education, but that's the starting point 23 00:02:14,660 --> 00:02:18,440 of my career about art and food. 24 00:02:18,440 --> 00:02:24,240 And Bolivia, you did the work documenting street food vendors, right? Like I know that 25 00:02:24,240 --> 00:02:28,320 probably that was pretty cool. And also I have to say like street food in La Paz is 26 00:02:28,320 --> 00:02:30,480 super nice. I really like what I had there. 27 00:02:30,480 --> 00:02:35,080 Yeah, I'm curious which part of illustration or art versus scene in Bolivia. 28 00:02:35,080 --> 00:02:37,400 Well, all the ones you did for Gustu, actually. 29 00:02:37,400 --> 00:02:41,560 Yeah, the menus, the menus. Yes. The mirrors. 30 00:02:41,560 --> 00:02:45,920 And also, yeah, like there was this project, I think it's called Summa Payada, that was 31 00:02:45,920 --> 00:02:51,400 about street food vendors. And yeah, it was, it was a different, the most iconic street 32 00:02:51,400 --> 00:02:54,280 food dishes of La Paz. Yeah, that was pretty cool. 33 00:02:54,280 --> 00:03:00,160 Yeah. Since that was the first time for me to travel to South America. And there are 34 00:03:00,160 --> 00:03:06,840 so many different kinds of ingredients that I have never seen in Taiwan. Also, of course, 35 00:03:06,840 --> 00:03:13,880 not in the United States. Yeah. So I, as a foreigner, as a tourist, I think it will be 36 00:03:13,880 --> 00:03:18,440 struggle for people if they want to order something from the menu, but they don't know 37 00:03:18,440 --> 00:03:23,160 what exactly the ingredient is. There are so many ingredients that didn't even have 38 00:03:23,160 --> 00:03:30,640 an English name. For example, the papas, hundreds of different potatoes. How can you describe 39 00:03:30,640 --> 00:03:38,080 what kind of potato it is? So I started to working on research to documenting the ingredients 40 00:03:38,080 --> 00:03:47,040 that they use in the restaurants by illustrations. So that's a system that I created since 2013 41 00:03:47,040 --> 00:03:53,600 and 2014. Took me about one year to finish hundreds of different kinds of ingredients, 42 00:03:53,600 --> 00:03:59,220 illustrations, bank, which they are still using right now on their menu. It's a system 43 00:03:59,220 --> 00:04:06,480 that they can easy to change by themselves and sustainable system. So that's one part 44 00:04:06,480 --> 00:04:12,280 of my research at that time. What other countries have you drawn its food? 45 00:04:12,280 --> 00:04:21,040 Yeah. After Bolivia, I started to do the backpacking, traveling. And the first stop I say it's Portugal. 46 00:04:21,040 --> 00:04:28,020 I went to Europe for backpacking. And then of course, Copenhagen, I went to Noma to see 47 00:04:28,020 --> 00:04:38,320 what actually this come from. London, Paris, Milan, Spain. I just traveling all around 48 00:04:38,320 --> 00:04:45,000 Europe. And then when I come back to Taiwan, I started to travel around more Asia countries. 49 00:04:45,000 --> 00:04:49,760 So like Hong Kong, Singapore, Japan, Korea for the past 10 years. 50 00:04:49,760 --> 00:04:54,240 Yeah. I've been following you on Instagram for a few years and I always see you like 51 00:04:54,240 --> 00:04:58,960 visiting these cafes and places and restaurants all over Asia. It's super interesting. 52 00:04:58,960 --> 00:05:02,960 Yes. I was working on a project called Alice Magazine. 53 00:05:02,960 --> 00:05:05,920 Ah, yeah. I've seen it on your social media. 54 00:05:05,920 --> 00:05:12,720 Yeah. It's a small illustration booklets that documenting my food diary while traveling. 55 00:05:12,720 --> 00:05:18,040 And that's only one of the way for myself to learn about the cultural differences through 56 00:05:18,040 --> 00:05:24,120 food. And that's also why I started to work on my new book, which introducing the Taiwanese 57 00:05:24,120 --> 00:05:28,920 street foods, because I have so many friends that they are not familiar with Taiwanese 58 00:05:28,920 --> 00:05:29,920 food as well. 59 00:05:29,920 --> 00:05:35,040 Okay. Let's get into that. But before we get into your book and Taiwanese street food, 60 00:05:35,040 --> 00:05:39,760 let's introduce a little bit. What are the main influence in Taiwanese food culture? 61 00:05:39,760 --> 00:05:44,360 Because it's not simple, right? Like you have Chinese heritage, but it was also occupied 62 00:05:44,360 --> 00:05:49,800 by Japan, if I'm not wrong. So you have like a mixture of different things. So how could 63 00:05:49,800 --> 00:05:52,360 you, how would you describe or explain this? 64 00:05:52,360 --> 00:05:58,480 Yeah. Before I get into this, are there any Taiwanese food that are coming to your mind 65 00:05:58,480 --> 00:06:01,280 that you think it's familiar with? 66 00:06:01,280 --> 00:06:08,240 Not really. No, not really. Because, and actually one of my favorite food movies is this Taiwanese 67 00:06:08,240 --> 00:06:10,400 movie, Eat Man, Woman, Drink. 68 00:06:10,400 --> 00:06:11,400 Oh, wow. 69 00:06:11,400 --> 00:06:16,720 And for me, it was always, every time I would see it, I was thinking this Chinese movie, 70 00:06:16,720 --> 00:06:21,880 you know, like I wouldn't like my brain wouldn't process that, that is a different and separate 71 00:06:21,880 --> 00:06:27,920 thing, you know, like because culturally it's very similar, right? It has very close links. 72 00:06:27,920 --> 00:06:32,040 Yes. But you are familiar with Chinese food and Japanese food, right? 73 00:06:32,040 --> 00:06:33,040 Exactly. 74 00:06:33,040 --> 00:06:34,040 Yeah. So I think that- 75 00:06:34,040 --> 00:06:40,920 But I couldn't name not a single Taiwanese, not food, not even tea, nothing. No, it's 76 00:06:40,920 --> 00:06:41,920 interesting. 77 00:06:41,920 --> 00:06:49,080 Yeah. But Taiwan are renowned for our food. So I'm curious about like what kind of food 78 00:06:49,080 --> 00:06:51,320 outside of the world understand about Taiwan? 79 00:06:51,320 --> 00:06:56,760 Well, what comes to my mind, of course, are dumplings. That would be the first thing. 80 00:06:56,760 --> 00:06:58,880 The ding tai feng, the soup dumplings, xiaolongbao. 81 00:06:58,880 --> 00:07:01,400 Xiaolongbao I have tried. Yes. 82 00:07:01,400 --> 00:07:05,400 Xiaolongbao. Yeah. Xiaolongbao is from Taiwan. Boba tea, you can see here. 83 00:07:05,400 --> 00:07:09,800 Okay. Xiaolongbao is from Taiwan. Okay. I didn't knew this. I have cooked that actually. 84 00:07:09,800 --> 00:07:10,800 I don't know. I see. 85 00:07:10,800 --> 00:07:11,800 Xiaolongbao and I didn't knew that. 86 00:07:11,800 --> 00:07:16,800 Yeah. Originally from China, from Shanghai, but in Taiwan we have our version. They're 87 00:07:16,800 --> 00:07:23,400 thin skin and boba tea is very popular and also guabao. 88 00:07:23,400 --> 00:07:24,400 What is boba tea? 89 00:07:24,400 --> 00:07:26,400 Boba tea, bubble tea. 90 00:07:26,400 --> 00:07:28,400 Ah, bubble tea, of course. 91 00:07:28,400 --> 00:07:29,400 Yeah. 92 00:07:29,400 --> 00:07:30,400 Yes, yes, yes. 93 00:07:30,400 --> 00:07:33,400 Yeah. Bubble tea also called boba tea. So it's from Taiwan. 94 00:07:33,400 --> 00:07:35,400 Ah, I didn't knew that as well. 95 00:07:35,400 --> 00:07:42,240 Yeah. So that you can refer to our tea culture. It's very like, it's everywhere. So from 96 00:07:42,240 --> 00:07:48,000 authentic gongfu tea, which is a very good tea too. Like every day you can see like tea 97 00:07:48,000 --> 00:07:56,080 stand of boba. This is also one part of Tony's culture. And street food, it's so many. We 98 00:07:56,080 --> 00:08:03,960 have bunch of night markets and there are street foods called pork rice, braised pork rice, 99 00:08:03,960 --> 00:08:08,200 beef noodles, the pork blood cake, stinky tofu. 100 00:08:08,200 --> 00:08:10,840 Ah, stinky tofu I've tried. Yeah. That's nice. 101 00:08:10,840 --> 00:08:17,760 Yeah. Stinky tofu and all kinds of street foods that you can see the influence of Chinese 102 00:08:17,760 --> 00:08:23,240 and Japanese culture. I'm going to give you some examples. For example, sushi. It's very 103 00:08:23,240 --> 00:08:28,360 interesting that there's kind of way of prepping sushi here in Taiwan, but you couldn't even 104 00:08:28,360 --> 00:08:34,720 find it in Japan. We usually put a lot of ingredients from the locals, right? So we 105 00:08:34,720 --> 00:08:38,680 put meat floss, for example, in the sushi. 106 00:08:38,680 --> 00:08:43,400 So there is like a, how to say, Taiwan has its own sushi culture. 107 00:08:43,400 --> 00:08:50,000 Yes. I would say Taiwanese, Japanese, a Taiwan version Japanese food culture. 108 00:08:50,000 --> 00:08:56,160 Okay. Yeah. Because you have the same thing in Peru, for instance, like a Japanese Peruvian 109 00:08:56,160 --> 00:08:57,400 thing. 110 00:08:57,400 --> 00:09:04,400 And we do have many of those kinds of Japanese influence food that you can only find in Taiwan. 111 00:09:04,400 --> 00:09:10,120 And also I like the way of saying, instead of saying Taiwan is a melting pot, you can 112 00:09:10,120 --> 00:09:15,920 describe it as Taiwan's spicy hot pot. Have you heard of the hot pot? It's divided in 113 00:09:15,920 --> 00:09:22,600 two. Yeah. To kind of broth. Yeah. Because we are mainly influenced from Chinese food 114 00:09:22,600 --> 00:09:28,840 culture and Japanese food culture because we were occupied by Japan for about 50 years. 115 00:09:28,840 --> 00:09:35,960 And before that, there are also different East coast of Chinese migrants come to Taiwan. 116 00:09:35,960 --> 00:09:42,140 So we also have Hoklo and Hakka kind of Chinese culture. 117 00:09:42,140 --> 00:09:46,960 These are groups of people of Chinese. The ones you mentioned, Hokko and Hakka. 118 00:09:46,960 --> 00:09:52,200 Hokko and Hakka. And the way of their cooking, their food is very different. Hokko food 119 00:09:52,200 --> 00:10:00,360 is more like light soup and seafood, this kind of flavor. And Hakka food is more strong, 120 00:10:00,360 --> 00:10:09,640 saltier, a lot of fermentation, a lot of conserved food preparation techniques. So we do have 121 00:10:09,640 --> 00:10:15,960 a lot of these kind of mixtures. And after the World War II, the Western culture come 122 00:10:15,960 --> 00:10:22,360 to Taiwan. So we do have a lot of American influences as well. So we do have like a bunch 123 00:10:22,360 --> 00:10:28,640 of burger shops, which is called Mayor Mei. That's very popular in Taiwan. It's a kind 124 00:10:28,640 --> 00:10:37,520 of breakfast shop you can find basically everywhere. Okay. But what is it exactly? Burger for breakfast. 125 00:10:37,520 --> 00:10:44,160 The burger is only one part of the menu. There are like 20 different variations of breakfast 126 00:10:44,160 --> 00:10:50,160 options, but you can see like sandwiches, hamburgers, but these are all Taiwanese flavors 127 00:10:50,160 --> 00:10:57,760 with mayo, tomato sauce, but can taste definitely different from American version of burger. 128 00:10:57,760 --> 00:11:04,040 No, absolutely. I was recently in Singapore. It was my first trip to Asia and I would see 129 00:11:04,040 --> 00:11:10,720 the burger restaurants and I was like, okay, this is like a super Asian adaptation of burgers, 130 00:11:10,720 --> 00:11:15,120 you know, with, yeah, I don't know, fermented spicy sauces or these kinds of things. Yeah. 131 00:11:15,120 --> 00:11:20,160 But I think it's pretty cool though, those mixtures. There are also many steak houses, 132 00:11:20,160 --> 00:11:26,920 but it's variation of different kinds of price ranges, range from $5 for a steak to $200 133 00:11:26,920 --> 00:11:34,440 for a steak. So it's like huge here. You can see the mixture of it. So it's from Western, 134 00:11:34,440 --> 00:11:39,660 but it's cooked on the iron plate. It's more like Japanese style, right? Teppanyaki kind 135 00:11:39,660 --> 00:11:47,360 of cooking. Yes, but on top of the steak, we'll put some noodles, which is like noodles 136 00:11:47,360 --> 00:11:54,320 and sunny side up eggs and the sauce of mushroom. So which is like, you can find like many different 137 00:11:54,320 --> 00:12:00,320 kinds of combinations in one dish. This is like super fusion. This is like a street food 138 00:12:00,320 --> 00:12:05,600 dish. What did you just describe? Yes, you can find on in a night market. Okay. What's 139 00:12:05,600 --> 00:12:13,040 the name of this one? The steak. It's iron steak. Okay. Yeah. The other thing I wanted 140 00:12:13,040 --> 00:12:19,600 to ask you, I got really enthusiastic about tea recently and every time when I talk with 141 00:12:19,600 --> 00:12:24,440 tea experts, they always put Taiwan on the top three. They talk, yeah, Japan, China and 142 00:12:24,440 --> 00:12:30,440 Taiwan has a very special place in the tea world. Why is that? And what has Taiwanese 143 00:12:30,440 --> 00:12:35,360 tea different from others? I understand it's also a mixture of Chinese and Japanese, right? 144 00:12:35,360 --> 00:12:42,120 Yeah, definitely. But, um, be honest, I'm not a master of tea person. So I would say 145 00:12:42,120 --> 00:12:49,960 for, for myself, my personal experience drinking teas, like drinking water, like very, very 146 00:12:49,960 --> 00:12:54,800 common beverage that we drink every day. I have a glass of tea right now with me and 147 00:12:54,800 --> 00:13:00,360 you can see all kinds of different bottle tea and of course different regions. I think 148 00:13:00,360 --> 00:13:09,240 the geography of Taiwan, cause we have mountains and we are very geometrically or climate friendly 149 00:13:09,240 --> 00:13:18,160 for tea growing and also the development techniques. It's from like hundreds of years of developing. 150 00:13:18,160 --> 00:13:24,760 Is there like a, I don't know, like a famous Taiwanese tea, like a type specific or a place 151 00:13:24,760 --> 00:13:31,880 that is worth visiting or something like that? There are six main regions of tea growing areas 152 00:13:31,880 --> 00:13:37,480 and they are basically around different kinds of mountains. So Taiwan is not big, it's an 153 00:13:37,480 --> 00:13:43,880 island, right? But we do have many mountains. So there are teas from Alishan, which is like 154 00:13:43,880 --> 00:13:52,980 very, very high class tea. Sanlinxi, Lishan, Lugu, Dongding, Oolongcha. There are so many 155 00:13:52,980 --> 00:13:58,400 different kinds of variations of tea that you can find basically in different regions. 156 00:13:58,400 --> 00:14:02,560 Good. Now that we have all this background, let's talk about your book. It's kind of like 157 00:14:02,560 --> 00:14:07,920 a guide for people to find places. How would you present your book? 158 00:14:07,920 --> 00:14:15,160 Okay. Let me show you the book. It's an illustration book that introducing 200 different kinds 159 00:14:15,160 --> 00:14:23,160 of Taiwanese street food stalls all around Taiwan. Cause there are so many street foods 160 00:14:23,160 --> 00:14:29,920 and the regional variations are quite different. So I decided to work on this book since the 161 00:14:29,920 --> 00:14:36,880 COVID-19 start. I couldn't travel anymore and for myself finally have time to deeply 162 00:14:36,880 --> 00:14:40,720 go into Taiwan in different cities. Nice. 163 00:14:40,720 --> 00:14:45,120 Yeah. Cause for myself, even for myself, I'm from Taiwan, I don't know the differences 164 00:14:45,120 --> 00:14:53,440 of different places, regional food differences. And I really take time. I take three years 165 00:14:53,440 --> 00:14:55,080 to work on this. Oh nice. 166 00:14:55,080 --> 00:15:00,880 To actually go to visit local friends and eat the food that they recommend me. So it's 167 00:15:00,880 --> 00:15:06,120 really from the locals recommendations. What is it with the book and numbers exactly? 168 00:15:06,120 --> 00:15:11,720 You documented 200 stalls and how many regions all over the country? 169 00:15:11,720 --> 00:15:18,320 All over the country. Covered the 16 different cities. So it's from Taipei to like all around 170 00:15:18,320 --> 00:15:19,320 Taiwan. 171 00:15:19,320 --> 00:15:24,400 Oh, wow. What a wonderful project to visit 16 cities and find their best street food 172 00:15:24,400 --> 00:15:27,000 places in each one. That's something I want to do. 173 00:15:27,000 --> 00:15:32,880 Yeah. I'll definitely show you around. Cause the reason why I start on this book is I want 174 00:15:32,880 --> 00:15:39,560 to show this to friends. I want to learn first and I have some places to bring you around. 175 00:15:39,560 --> 00:15:46,120 And this is something I have to definitely start. So I didn't know that's such a big 176 00:15:46,120 --> 00:15:51,440 project. I was expected maybe one year I can finish like traveling. And then when I start 177 00:15:51,440 --> 00:15:57,520 traveling, I feel it's so many, so many different nations and different kinds of food that you 178 00:15:57,520 --> 00:16:02,840 can find. Hard to find in Taipei. Taipei is a capital, right? But you can already find 179 00:16:02,840 --> 00:16:09,000 many kinds of street foods from all around Taiwan because people come to Taipei for living. 180 00:16:09,000 --> 00:16:14,480 They start their restaurants and stalls, but there are still many different street foods 181 00:16:14,480 --> 00:16:19,240 that you can only find in certain regions because of the, maybe the ingredients and 182 00:16:19,240 --> 00:16:24,080 the way of cooking and the way of tasting differently. 183 00:16:24,080 --> 00:16:31,440 What do you show from each stall? Like just the dish, also the stall. Do you tell a story 184 00:16:31,440 --> 00:16:37,480 of the place? Do you describe the best dish? How is exactly the each stall in your book? 185 00:16:37,480 --> 00:16:44,120 Actually every single restaurant, I definitely taste it. So it's a personal experience of 186 00:16:44,120 --> 00:16:50,600 documenting the feeling and the texture and how the food tastes like. But the majority 187 00:16:50,600 --> 00:16:58,680 part is my personal experience by discovering Taiwan culture by eating. So this is basically 188 00:16:58,680 --> 00:17:05,260 not just a where to go eat guide. It's more like informing an idea of what is Taiwanese 189 00:17:05,260 --> 00:17:10,360 food about, what is Taiwanese street food about. Because when we go to night market 190 00:17:10,360 --> 00:17:17,480 or when you search online, there are definitely like 10 street food must to eat in Taiwan. 191 00:17:17,480 --> 00:17:24,040 But there are not just 10. For me it's like after digging in, there are like hundreds 192 00:17:24,040 --> 00:17:29,440 of different variations. I believe in your country, there must be so many regional food, 193 00:17:29,440 --> 00:17:30,440 right? 194 00:17:30,440 --> 00:17:36,840 No, of course. And in all of the countries that I live, of course, there is like an idea 195 00:17:36,840 --> 00:17:42,880 of a standard dish and there are millions of variation. Everyone has its own secret. 196 00:17:42,880 --> 00:17:48,520 Everyone recognizes a dish that it is the thing, but you know, everyone has its own 197 00:17:48,520 --> 00:17:52,160 touch. That's the thing. I think that's what gastronomy is about. 198 00:17:52,160 --> 00:17:59,600 Yes. And also it's memory connections with friends. So yeah, it's a mixture of both 199 00:17:59,600 --> 00:18:05,480 like personal experience and also like the illustrations of documenting like an illustration 200 00:18:05,480 --> 00:18:06,480 book. 201 00:18:06,480 --> 00:18:11,880 What is your process when you illustrate a place or a dish? Do you do it by memory? 202 00:18:11,880 --> 00:18:16,880 Do you take a picture and then use it as a guide? Do you do it before, afterwards, while 203 00:18:16,880 --> 00:18:19,080 you're eating? I don't know. How is it? 204 00:18:19,080 --> 00:18:25,880 Usually when I'm traveling, I usually draw on the dining table because it's a fast sketch. 205 00:18:25,880 --> 00:18:30,640 When I eat it, I just document it right away. So I will bring the material that it's easy 206 00:18:30,640 --> 00:18:37,200 to travel with, which is just a notebook, but with scratch paper and also with color 207 00:18:37,200 --> 00:18:44,880 pencil because color pencil is so easy to bring with you. And it's, let me show you 208 00:18:44,880 --> 00:18:47,400 something more like this techniques. 209 00:18:47,400 --> 00:18:53,600 That's part of the book. Okay. I can see it. So it's the text and the illustrations merge. 210 00:18:53,600 --> 00:19:00,520 And yeah, it really feels like a, like a diary, like a travel diary with illustration. Super 211 00:19:00,520 --> 00:19:01,520 nice. 212 00:19:01,520 --> 00:19:06,840 This page is talking about tea culture in certain area in Miao Li. Miao Li is center 213 00:19:06,840 --> 00:19:13,760 of Taiwan. And this is three kinds of tea. Lei Cha and this is the Oriental beauty tea 214 00:19:13,760 --> 00:19:21,240 is also oriented from this area. And this is called Suan Gan Cha. It's a tea made inside 215 00:19:21,240 --> 00:19:28,520 of this kind of orange and you dry it and ferment it for a while. It becomes this color 216 00:19:28,520 --> 00:19:34,920 and then you pour into the hot water. It becomes like this kind of orange flavored tea. So 217 00:19:34,920 --> 00:19:38,280 this is a very special tea that from that region. 218 00:19:38,280 --> 00:19:43,760 It's also a very good example of how your storytelling works because there you illustrated 219 00:19:43,760 --> 00:19:49,500 like a fermentation process, like the evolution of the product from one state and one color 220 00:19:49,500 --> 00:19:54,200 to the other, all in the same time. It's kind of like an infographic, like the whole book. 221 00:19:54,200 --> 00:20:00,280 Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's true. And for this kind of tea, Lei Cha, it's interesting. It's 222 00:20:00,280 --> 00:20:08,000 more similar to Mo Cha, Matcha tea in Japan, I think. The same technique, but totally different 223 00:20:08,000 --> 00:20:14,400 ingredients. Just inside there are tea leaves and also all different kinds of nuts. They 224 00:20:14,400 --> 00:20:19,640 are like different nuts. So you ground it and then you pour tea inside. Then become 225 00:20:19,640 --> 00:20:25,600 like more like a soup dessert kind of tea. Tea dessert. Super nice. Yeah. And you can 226 00:20:25,600 --> 00:20:33,200 have DIY. They have like experience place for people to work on this pace. It's very, 227 00:20:33,200 --> 00:20:39,960 very difficult for me. It takes about half an hour to grind those nuts before you actually 228 00:20:39,960 --> 00:20:40,960 eat it. 229 00:20:40,960 --> 00:20:48,400 Do you have like any special, like a special story to share during your trips across all 230 00:20:48,400 --> 00:20:51,360 the cities and all these stalls? 231 00:20:51,360 --> 00:21:00,600 Yeah, definitely. I feel amazed by how different it could be for one single dish in different 232 00:21:00,600 --> 00:21:08,320 cities and different regions of ways of prepping. There's a street food called Ba Wan in Taiwan. 233 00:21:08,320 --> 00:21:13,880 I think Ba Wan is one of the most underestimated street food. 234 00:21:13,880 --> 00:21:14,880 What is it? 235 00:21:14,880 --> 00:21:25,160 It's a meatballs. It's a shape of meatballs, but covered in, it was made in sweet potato 236 00:21:25,160 --> 00:21:32,520 starch and filled with meat, pork meat. And sometimes there are bamboo shoots inside and 237 00:21:32,520 --> 00:21:38,360 in different regions, they might have a little different of the ingredients. But in different 238 00:21:38,360 --> 00:21:45,400 part of Taiwan, they are steamed Ba Wan, they are deep fried Ba Wan, they are like hand 239 00:21:45,400 --> 00:21:48,800 fried. So it makes it all different kinds of flavor. 240 00:21:48,800 --> 00:21:54,240 Yeah. You will see the same, for instance, here in Spain, you have like the potato omelet, 241 00:21:54,240 --> 00:21:59,880 you know, like the tortilla, the Spanish omelet. And wherever you go, they will do it different 242 00:21:59,880 --> 00:22:04,800 sizes, shapes. Some people add onions, some nuts, some people add pepper, some people 243 00:22:04,800 --> 00:22:09,520 add some yolk to the mixture. You know, some people fry the potatoes really dark, some 244 00:22:09,520 --> 00:22:13,160 people just poach them. You know, there are like millions of variations, but everybody 245 00:22:13,160 --> 00:22:15,800 recognize as a tortilla if you see one, you know. 246 00:22:15,800 --> 00:22:21,640 I think I tried that. Yeah, but only the one kind. I didn't try the variations. So this 247 00:22:21,640 --> 00:22:32,080 is the Ba Wan, the meatballs look like. It's like a sticky slimy texture, kind of, I don't 248 00:22:32,080 --> 00:22:41,440 know how to describe it. It's covered with this potato made starch. And inside it's meat 249 00:22:41,440 --> 00:22:49,360 and bamboo shoots. But on top of the meatballs, we also use different kinds of sauce to make 250 00:22:49,360 --> 00:22:53,880 it different. So in different region, the sauce are quite different. Like this is the 251 00:22:53,880 --> 00:23:01,500 way of making it in like a small plate and put the starch and then put the bamboo shoots 252 00:23:01,500 --> 00:23:07,320 and meat and cover. And then after they steam it, they fry it. Oh wow, that's super nice. 253 00:23:07,320 --> 00:23:15,080 Yeah. And put on the sauce. And this is a variation in the center of Taiwan, Puli. The 254 00:23:15,080 --> 00:23:22,240 way of they serving, they put a pot of broth on the table for you to pour into the bowls 255 00:23:22,240 --> 00:23:29,240 after you finish eating. This is more like a Tian Bu La, like Japanese, kind of, you 256 00:23:29,240 --> 00:23:34,000 know, when you finish eating and there's a little bit of sauce, sweet sauce, and you 257 00:23:34,000 --> 00:23:41,640 pour the soup and drink with it. So I think that's something very special kind of Taiwanese 258 00:23:41,640 --> 00:23:45,960 food. You probably couldn't find it anywhere else. 259 00:23:45,960 --> 00:23:52,680 How was the process of publishing the book? Did you self-publish? You went to publisher? 260 00:23:52,680 --> 00:23:54,000 How was this experience? 261 00:23:54,000 --> 00:24:01,520 Yeah. I worked with a publisher since they know I've been working on food illustrations 262 00:24:01,520 --> 00:24:08,320 and documenting food cultures all around different cities. And we were definitely coming to an 263 00:24:08,320 --> 00:24:14,640 idea how to, how about creating this book that talk more details about Taiwanese street 264 00:24:14,640 --> 00:24:20,960 foods. So that's, that was a common idea. And then I start to work on this process and 265 00:24:20,960 --> 00:24:25,520 I was planning on finishing in one year and took me three and a half years. So I just 266 00:24:25,520 --> 00:24:33,080 published last December. And yeah, I think it's a starting point for myself to learn 267 00:24:33,080 --> 00:24:39,360 more and deeper about Taiwanese cuisine. And this is something I think is interesting because 268 00:24:39,360 --> 00:24:48,320 the culture is always changing because of the migrants. So for instance, after the 1990s, 269 00:24:48,320 --> 00:24:53,920 there are more and more Southeast Asian migrants also moved to Taiwan to work. So there are 270 00:24:53,920 --> 00:25:02,760 Thai influences, Filipinos kind of food and Vietnamese food that are mixtures more and 271 00:25:02,760 --> 00:25:09,960 more and making Taiwanese more variations. Yeah. And this is like an ongoing process. 272 00:25:09,960 --> 00:25:15,160 And this, this migrants, you find them also in street food stalls or do they open their 273 00:25:15,160 --> 00:25:17,280 own restaurants or both things? 274 00:25:17,280 --> 00:25:22,840 Yes, they are. They opened their restaurants definitely, but you can also find like mixtures 275 00:25:22,840 --> 00:25:29,280 of the dishes. There's one dish called it's a bento, you know, Japanese bento, bento shop, 276 00:25:29,280 --> 00:25:36,720 but they sell Thai version of fried chicken on the bento. Oh, nice. And this dish are, 277 00:25:36,720 --> 00:25:44,840 you can find many, many bento shop, but if you go to Thailand, there's not such a thing. 278 00:25:44,840 --> 00:25:51,240 Just a new Thai food in Taiwan. And I think it's so funny. 279 00:25:51,240 --> 00:25:56,200 That happens a lot with migration because you have to adapt to the local customers, 280 00:25:56,200 --> 00:26:01,920 right? So you need to do adaptation. That's a, I learned a lot about Chinese food in the 281 00:26:01,920 --> 00:26:07,920 States, how the whole adaptation and creating the concept of dim sum just to, to make it 282 00:26:07,920 --> 00:26:15,800 more popular for, for American audiences. And this was exported to many other countries. 283 00:26:15,800 --> 00:26:19,520 So it's quite interesting to understand these kinds of things. I also have worked like in 284 00:26:19,520 --> 00:26:25,840 Spanish restaurants in Germany and you cook their Spanish food that you want to find in 285 00:26:25,840 --> 00:26:26,840 Spain. 286 00:26:26,840 --> 00:26:29,000 So it happens everywhere, right? 287 00:26:29,000 --> 00:26:32,480 Yeah, of course. Yeah. I think it's something natural. Yeah. 288 00:26:32,480 --> 00:26:38,400 Yeah. Because of the globalizations kind of merging to new shape. 289 00:26:38,400 --> 00:26:44,240 Yeah. Or cultural adaptation. Like the same thing you said that you have like a very specific 290 00:26:44,240 --> 00:26:48,040 type of sushi. That's kind of like the same thing, right? 291 00:26:48,040 --> 00:26:56,640 Yeah. And there's also a very famous restaurant called Bao in London. Have you heard B-A-O? 292 00:26:56,640 --> 00:27:03,840 Not really. It's a, it's a Taiwanese street food. They sell the Gua Bao, which is the 293 00:27:03,840 --> 00:27:05,360 steam version sandwich. 294 00:27:05,360 --> 00:27:10,400 Ah, yes. Of course. I know it. Yeah. Right. Yes. Yes. Yeah. I follow them. So this kind 295 00:27:10,400 --> 00:27:16,880 of sandwich is Taiwanese street food and it's very like easy, easy going. Like you can take, 296 00:27:16,880 --> 00:27:19,400 grab and go the shape is like this, right? 297 00:27:19,400 --> 00:27:21,720 And how do you call it in Taiwan? Also Bao? 298 00:27:21,720 --> 00:27:22,720 Gua Bao. 299 00:27:22,720 --> 00:27:26,560 Gua Bao. Okay. Gua Bao. Yeah. It's, it's like a pocket. 300 00:27:26,560 --> 00:27:34,440 And you just fill with pork belly, braised pork belly and cilantro, peanut powder, pickled 301 00:27:34,440 --> 00:27:40,640 radish. These are the main ingredients and the most traditional way of making this sandwich. 302 00:27:40,640 --> 00:27:46,840 However, when they open a new restaurants in different city, we also make variations 303 00:27:46,840 --> 00:27:53,960 in different kinds of flavors to make it more like welcoming in other countries. So it's, 304 00:27:53,960 --> 00:27:58,720 it's quite interesting for us to see cause we don't see these kinds of variations in 305 00:27:58,720 --> 00:27:59,720 Taiwan. 306 00:27:59,720 --> 00:28:05,880 Yeah. That's also interesting. Like when a food culture reinvent itself outside of the 307 00:28:05,880 --> 00:28:08,880 country and then they bring that back to the country. 308 00:28:08,880 --> 00:28:17,000 Yeah. And then we would feel like, wow, modern Bao. It's something that becoming popular 309 00:28:17,000 --> 00:28:25,320 right now. And I also got a client it's from Portugal. Actually they contact me, say they 310 00:28:25,320 --> 00:28:30,840 are going to open a Bao restaurant also because they love Taiwanese food. They want to open 311 00:28:30,840 --> 00:28:37,080 this Bao restaurants in Portugal. So I was working on the illustrations menu for them. 312 00:28:37,080 --> 00:28:43,960 The other thing I wanted to ask you is if, for instance, me, I I've never been to Taiwan. 313 00:28:43,960 --> 00:28:49,160 If I travel there and you have to say me, you have to try five things. These five things 314 00:28:49,160 --> 00:28:54,560 are musts that you can't leave without trying them. What would you tell me? 315 00:28:54,560 --> 00:28:56,200 Wow. Do you eat spicy food? 316 00:28:56,200 --> 00:28:57,200 Yes. I love it. 317 00:28:57,200 --> 00:29:01,320 You love spicy food? Wow. I think five. 318 00:29:01,320 --> 00:29:04,640 And also strong, strong aromas like stinky tofu and these kinds of things I really like 319 00:29:04,640 --> 00:29:05,640 as well. 320 00:29:05,640 --> 00:29:09,120 I will say you have to eat five different kinds of food a day and you have to stay at 321 00:29:09,120 --> 00:29:13,720 least 10 days. 322 00:29:13,720 --> 00:29:18,800 For instance, if you go to night market, you can just eat every stop, every stops, you 323 00:29:18,800 --> 00:29:24,560 know. So it's definitely not enough for you to try only five. But I would say, um, if 324 00:29:24,560 --> 00:29:30,200 you want to see the whole pictures of Taiwanese food culture, maybe try a little bit of Taiwan 325 00:29:30,200 --> 00:29:36,600 flavored Japanese food. It's one and maybe try some kind of variation that I mentioned 326 00:29:36,600 --> 00:29:45,000 like the Thai version of Taiwanese bento and the mixtures of all kinds of this variations. 327 00:29:45,000 --> 00:29:52,160 But definitely street foods. I think there are at least 10s, 20s, different kinds of 328 00:29:52,160 --> 00:30:00,520 things to try and definitely don't just stay in Taipei because Taipei is the capital, but 329 00:30:00,520 --> 00:30:03,960 outside of Taipei, there are also a lot of things to see. 330 00:30:03,960 --> 00:30:08,880 What places do you recommend food wise outside of Taipei, like cities or regions? 331 00:30:08,880 --> 00:30:15,320 Okay, let me show you. This is the map of Taiwan, right? And the Taipei here, I would 332 00:30:15,320 --> 00:30:19,960 recommend Jiayi. Jiayi is in the south. 333 00:30:19,960 --> 00:30:20,960 Southwest. 334 00:30:20,960 --> 00:30:27,280 Yes. And Jiayi has a lot of interesting food that is hard to find in Taipei. There's a 335 00:30:27,280 --> 00:30:34,040 kind of cold noodle, but with the mayo sauce. And this is only you can find in this area. 336 00:30:34,040 --> 00:30:39,920 And they also have like turkey rice and the fish head soup. There's also Netflix episodes 337 00:30:39,920 --> 00:30:44,880 talk about Taiwanese food. I can send you the link to see they, they introduced Jiayi 338 00:30:44,880 --> 00:30:46,920 this area quite well. 339 00:30:46,920 --> 00:30:48,680 Okay. Super nice. 340 00:30:48,680 --> 00:30:55,280 And if you want to see more differences, go to the East coast. There are a lot of indigenous 341 00:30:55,280 --> 00:31:02,320 kind of food culture. There are 16 different tribes in Taiwan, the indigenous tribes. So 342 00:31:02,320 --> 00:31:10,480 for their food culture is more like scavenger and more like hunting and wild ingredients. 343 00:31:10,480 --> 00:31:13,560 So it's also very interesting on the East coast. 344 00:31:13,560 --> 00:31:17,200 What about the mountains? 345 00:31:17,200 --> 00:31:23,720 Like here, this is a very high, the tallest mountain in Taiwan, the Yushan mountain area. 346 00:31:23,720 --> 00:31:30,080 So in this region you can buy like very good cabbage and there are so many fresh ingredients 347 00:31:30,080 --> 00:31:39,640 that were made into dishes like bamboo shoots, crusades, mushroom crusades, and also tea. 348 00:31:39,640 --> 00:31:40,680 This is the tea farm. 349 00:31:40,680 --> 00:31:42,240 Ah, nice. 350 00:31:42,240 --> 00:31:49,320 All different kinds of region. There are six different huge mountains areas that you can 351 00:31:49,320 --> 00:31:55,320 find very good tea. Yeah. So many things to see. Don't just stay one week. If you want 352 00:31:55,320 --> 00:32:01,000 to discover food in Taiwan, I recommend like stay a little bit longer before your belly 353 00:32:01,000 --> 00:32:08,200 will explode. 354 00:32:08,200 --> 00:32:12,640 That's it for this week's episode of potluck food talks. If you like what we're doing, 355 00:32:12,640 --> 00:32:17,080 make sure to subscribe to the podcast so you never miss an episode. You can also find us 356 00:32:17,080 --> 00:32:21,680 on Instagram and Tik Tok as potluck food talks. The show airs every Monday.