Hi everyone, welcome to Pot Luck Food Talks.
Today I'm here with the lead vocal singer of Homo Cannibal, a band that promotes cannibalism
between people of the same sex.
Hi Phil, how are you?
Welcome.
Hey, how's it going?
Sorry, I got something stuck in my teeth.
One second.
What's up man, how have you been?
It's been a while.
Yeah, good.
Good, good, good.
Very busy.
Very busy, and you?
Good, good, good, good.
What are we talking about today?
Hey, we could talk about David Chang.
Yes.
What he did lately.
What the fuck is going on there?
What are you doing David?
What's happening?
Man, what was that man?
David became Goliath suddenly.
It's like a really stupid move, I have to say, like this whole thing with the...
Well, to put in context, apparently Dave Chang trademarked the name for Chili Crunch.
Just a few weeks ago he started chasing and suing people who also have the trademark Chili
Crunch in use.
Not the trademark, they were using the word Chili Crunch.
But of course, only the small players, because Kraft Heinz was also using that name and there
was no issue with Kraft Heinz as far as media knows.
But it was with small companies doing the same thing.
And the big problem is that a lot of people say like, hey, this is like the translation
from a Chinese, from a recipe that has been in our family for generations.
So what the fuck?
Yeah, absolutely what the fuck.
And it's like, man, please, David, climb down from your five kilometer high golden tower
and like get down to the real world.
It's like, what are you thinking?
You know, pursuing businesses at Asian owned businesses that have been doing this long
before his rich parents paid for his restaurant.
And then this kind of like, what gives him the right to claim this?
You know, like, what kind of an illegal maniac do you have to be to say, this is mine?
You know, like as if he invented it.
He just took it and just decided that it's now is.
Yeah, like I saw, well, first of all, I have to say, like strategically, I think it's like
a really stupid decision because you already have the name Momofuku.
It's already the most differential and original name you can have.
You could make like a Momofuku ketchup, you know, and it would be differential.
It would be a standout in the supermarket or whatever.
You don't need to trademark the word ketchup.
You know what I mean?
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Like he's got a trademark.
He's got a brand.
He's built a brand.
And like, I mean, you have to give him that, you know, the brand he's built is very good.
It's very successful.
You know, it's very expressive.
You know, like it's a great, it's a really good brand.
It's an appealing brand.
I can think about David Chang, whatever I want.
I can agree with his microwave, you know, craziness or not, but his brand is really
good.
And it's kind of like, I think this must have been like, I think his PR team must have been
tearing their fucking hair out at like this, you know, just be like, no, I'm not going
to do this.
Oh, David, please, we can't do this.
This is a terrible idea.
No, we will.
You know?
No, I saw like the whole statement they released, like in their podcast, David Chang and the
CEO of the whole Momofuku company.
And they were saying like, it's actually interesting because trademarks, it's not like as easy
as we're talking right now, like to trademark something, you know, it's basically protecting
a name.
And once you get the trademark and you protect it, if you don't protect it, you lose it.
So they were kind of, that's their argument.
But of course it went out of their hands.
They got really, really bad press.
And now they have to take it all back.
But they have the trademark.
And so what David Chang was saying is, he was saying like, this is like the ring of
the Lord of the Rings, but I can't throw it to Mount Doom.
So I will give it to any NGO that takes it.
So that's the only thing that I can do, which is the best thing that he can do actually.
At this point.
But the whole thing, at this point, exactly, the whole thing, the whole decision was so
stupid from the very beginning.
Now this is the price he has to pay.
Yeah.
He can't be like, hey, I'm just going to give it away because I don't really actually care.
It doesn't really matter to me anyway.
After the whole like industry came after him and was like, David, what the fuck are you
doing?
And then suddenly he's just like, I don't care.
You know, it's like, well, you care enough to like sue businesses, you know.
This is really a character that for me turned from a hero into a villain because, you know,
like 10, 12 years ago, David Chang, we would watch like, wow, this guy made it up to a
two star restaurant back then with Momofuku calls, starting with a, with a ramen joint
and that was really admirable.
And, and you know, the Momofuku cookbook is a book about entrepreneurship and how to open
a restaurant out of scratch.
And that's all like super inspiring.
All of this just to become like a mogul, rolling down small companies.
Yeah, totally.
Totally.
And like, I also, you know, wonder what's, I mean, you have to admit that David Chang
with what he was doing at the time that he was doing it, hit into a sort of like culinary
sort of direction that wasn't, you know, super explored by the masses, right?
All these like condiments, like for say, for example, chili crunch, you know, the first
time I ate Lao Gan Ma, you know, I would be a supporter of Lao Gan Ma.
Everybody, everybody knows this.
I was, I was amazed like every time I eat Lao Gan Ma, but you know, the first time it's
kind of like, oh, the first time I had like Yuzu, you know, like I was like, wow, what
is this?
You know, what is this shit?
It's like, wow, it's new, you know, like nicely made ponsos.
Like, wow, that's insane because it's new and it's, you know, it's very good.
Yeah.
I remember my, my first sip of ramen.
I was like, oh, wow, what was this all my life?
Yeah, of course.
Yeah.
And he obviously marketed this like very, very well, you know, and that's why it was
like very new and interesting and stuff.
But like he really, for me anyway, this is just my personal perspective now, but he really
like delved more and more because he was playing a lot with these like trash food ideas.
Like, you know, cold fried chicken from the fridge and then, you know, paired with this
like luxury opulence, not luxury, but opulence overindulgement.
It always seemed to me and then putting a big fuck off spoon of caviar on top of it.
I feel like in the last couple of years, he's just like really doubled down on that.
I think the, um, the American audience really liked that.
This like aspect because it's also relatable in a way for them, I guess, you know, and
I think he just really also as a marketing thing doubled down and like all these cook
shows that he's like, like all these like snippets that you see of him making, or was
it that I sent you the other day?
It was awful.
It was like, he was like microwaving eggs and then like crunching up like crisps and
just putting them on top and then putting caviar on top.
And you're like, man, what are you doing?
You know, it's just like, like one thing is kind of like stoner cooking, you know, and
like, you know, like I can be like, I can be partial to like a garbage plate in parentheses,
you know, but I don't know.
It's just, it doesn't have any, any technique.
It doesn't have any soul.
It doesn't have any finesse.
It's just, it's just a bit obscene.
And I feel like that's the only interesting thing about it these days.
Yeah, I think this whole issue with the chili crunch is the second most disappointing thing
I've had from Momofuku.
You know, the first one was when I actually went to eat to one of the places.
It was really disappointing.
And my friends in New York were like, no, we don't go there.
I'm afraid that's really bad, you know, and I went and it was like, what is this?
You know, it was like a bao with a pork belly and hoisin sauce.
That's it.
You know, like, oh, genius.
Yeah, crazy.
You don't know, no bright, nowhere, no spark.
It was like, what the fuck is this?
Yeah.
And it's like, if you, if you've never had a bao bun with a, what's it called?
Hong Shao red braised pork belly, you know, like, yeah, it's, it's, you've got to be like,
wow, this is delicious.
But if there's like nowadays, you know, people who are doing it actually well, doing nice
baos, nice pork belly, you know, it's, you're kind of like, well.
And ironically in that trip to New York, the, my best meal wasn't in another modern Korean
attoboy that that shit was amazing.
That was really like credible and creative and flavors that I never saw before used that
way, you know?
Yeah.
So we can make a list of villains now that we started with David Chang and heroes.
I have another one.
So this guy has this channel and he's making paella with things like packed juices or chocolate
drinks or Pepsi or this kind of things.
And he's funny about it.
He's like, Oh, I think I just invented a new Spanish dessert, like cooking Pepsi with Kit
Kats and he's super happy when he eats it.
He's like, this is so nice.
I hate how happy he is about it.
I'm out about the abomination that he's created.
Like it's fucking awful.
Like on one side I want to be happy for him and I want people to be able to be free to
do whatever they want.
But at the same time watching him make these like horrible Kit Kat Oreo paellas, I just
really hate him.
This guy, you really made a whole channel for pissing off Spanish people.
Yeah.
And he really made it.
He made it to the newspapers.
I actually saw this in El País.
There was like...
I'm not surprised.
All the Valencians.
They come to kill you?
Yeah, like all the Paiyanace community came together.
But there were even like death threats.
You know, I couldn't find the comments, but you better hide because I'm going to find
you and kill you.
So you better pray.
I'm not surprised.
I'm not even surprised.
People are crazy.
You know?
But the conversation, like you said, is the best, you know?
I'm crying blood watching this.
I mean, imagine that there happens like a first, you know, murder attempt in the name
of Paiyanacism that would be fucked up, you know?
Dude, I like if this guy, like he was doing something on the street in Spain like that,
you know, I feel like people would get violent.
Ah, yeah, yeah.
That would get violent, of sure.
If he wants to be funny and do this, like in Valencia, he would get...
People would get upset.
Yeah.
At least punch in the face a couple of times.
Yeah.
That's a strange to say because it's just...
Bryce.
Yeah, but I think, you know, just recently a friend of mine from Bilbao, because you
know, Bilbao just recently won the whatever, some football match, I think the national,
I don't know.
Oh yeah.
So people...
This happens every 40 years.
So people go crazy.
And she was telling me, no, this is not a football team, a soccer team.
It's an emotion.
Oh yeah.
And I guess, I guess it's the same with Paiyanacism for Valencians, you know?
Like you're messing with their grandmother, man.
You know, that's not acceptable.
I mean, it is true.
I mean, like, I mean, food and cooking is cultural identity, you know?
I mean, that's undeniable.
So I do understand when people feel offended in a way, you know?
It's also like, I mean, is it, is it appropriation in a way?
You know, it's kind of like...
No, this is cultural destruction, not appropriation.
Yeah, cultural destruction.
Jesus.
Who's the Paiyanazi?
You're sounding a lot like a Paiyanazi right now.
Yeah, yeah.
True, true.
It's a front to humanity.
You see, we're both closeted Paiyanazis after all.
Yeah, I would like...
There's a little Paiyanazi inside of every proper gastronomy lover, I guess.
Yeah, absolutely.
And some of us hide him away and some of us nurture him, you know, and feed him.
I mean, I think there are limits.
I think there are things that you can do with paella that are still okay.
I have this book on paellas and there was like a paella with German sausages and mustard
and this kind of thing.
And I think if you can do something like that and pull it off and it's delicious and it
responses certain parameters, fine, why not?
But there of course are limits where you say, okay, this is like an absolute no-go.
Is there a sweet paella that would be acceptable in your eyes?
But for me, the question is, I think yes, it would, but I haven't seen it yet.
But I think like theoretically it's possible.
That's my personal opinion.
First of all, I don't understand why would you make like a sweet rice in that pan?
You know, I think perhaps there are other better methods, but I don't know.
I haven't thought about it too much.
Well, if you imagine like a rice pudding, but like baked until it's like super caramelized
and gooey and kind of like really cooked down, you know.
That would be cool.
Like kind of like a toffee rice.
That would be like the socarrate is like a toffee.
That would be actually be cool.
All the Spanish people listening are like scratching their eyes out.
I thought they were on our side.
You were meant to be the chosen ones, not join the dark side.
So what about heroes?
I think a hero worth mentioning lately is Jose Andres.
Absolutely.
With this whole situation in Gaza.
Well basically what happened is Jose Andres has this organization called World Central
Kitchen and they sent like humanitarian aid to Palestine.
And there was like a convoy of three or four cars and humanitarian aid workers.
They have to report that there is like a special app where they report to the IDF where they're
moving what their cars are.
They were properly with signs that it was humanitarian help.
And a drone came and they destroyed the three cars, one after the other.
They chased him until everybody was dead by the Israeli army.
So this was no accident.
This was no oops.
It was a wrong shot.
No, no, no, no.
They chased him until they killed everyone.
And what Jose Andres says is they basically and I can really see here like a war strategy,
you know, a way of starving Palestinians to death by killing humanitarian aid, which is
absolutely fucked up.
Yeah, yeah.
I mean, that's such a no go, you know, like it's say about war and conflict, like whatever
you want to know.
This is, you know, I mean, what's happening in Gaza is, you know, so clearly a fucking
genocide and just absolutely horrible.
But like it's another level to then also attack people.
You know, it's kind of like, like killing civilians and women and children and bombing
hospitals and killing humanitarian workers.
You know, it's like, that's just beyond, you know, like you say, you know, the work that
like this Jose Andres, you know, this is a, he's really transcended.
Like, you know, he was a chef.
He was like a chef, the party at El Bruy, he moved to America, he opened restaurants
and he's just, he's really the embodiment of the belief that because I am one who believes
that that food is political and culturally and politically very important.
Well, I also need to say that I would say Jose Andres, 10 years ago, something like
that, he was one of the top chefs in the world.
I think Minivar was one of the best restaurants in the world.
It was really like doing like avant-garde dope shit in that restaurant.
It's not like some TV celebrity chef that, you know, got really famous and he's living
out of fame.
He was first like an incredible chef before becoming super famous.
But the crazy thing about this, and I think never in history, like a chef has played such
a role in a geopolitical situation that he got a call from Biden, you know, and just
a day later, United States sent an ultimatum to Israel to protect civilians.
And this is the first time something like that happens since 1990.
But at the same time, I think it's a little bit of bullshit because just a week later,
they sent like 100 million dollars or 2000 million dollars in military aid to Israel.
But yeah, that happened, which is absolutely crazy, I think.
Yeah, it is absolutely crazy.
It sometimes reminds me, like when I see that, it's kind of like when you're almost like
reading a history book and reading of like a Roman emperor who has his chef make, give
him advice on political matters and you would read that sort of stuff and be kind of like,
what, how does that happen?
You know, it happens like that.
And it's kind of like, I mean, a lot of things kind of like worked and came together with
Jose Andres, like you said, amazing chef with a very cool vision, a very strong culinary
identity of Spain, you know, very representative.
He's very representative of Spain in all the way that he does and that he talks about food
and what he like, you know, and then he's a very likable character.
I mean, for most people anyway, he's very, very good at expressing himself.
The guy is like a walking showman, you know.
And so it's just natural for me that if you think about it, that somebody involved with
food and everything that's connected to it with that ability, that's somebody that reaches
people in a different way.
That's like beyond, you know, a restaurant environment.
Yeah.
You mentioned that food is political.
What's the name?
I think I always pronounce it wrong.
I say Foxia Dunlop, this British.
Yeah.
Fuchsia Dunlop.
Yeah.
Fuchsia Dunlop.
Yes.
Yeah.
She recently wrote an article for the New York Times where she talks, it's super interesting.
You should check it out.
It's about how American dignitaries behave in China towards food.
And that's really like a thing, you know, like if they know if they have chopstick skills,
it's observed as a sign of cultural competence.
Yes.
And the places they visit, they become trendy.
And you know, like a key moment was when Treasury Secretary Janet Yellen ate mushrooms at a restaurant
in Beijing that were revealed to be mightily toxic and potentially hallucinogenic, like,
you know, psychedelic.
Yeah.
If they're not cooked properly.
And people went crazy about it and it became like a trend in China.
Everybody was like, oh, you know, now we have to try this psychedelic mushrooms, you know,
like in restaurants.
Yeah.
It's like it's like food was like blowfish.
Oh, we have to eat this thing that might kill me.
That has to be like a like a big deal, you know, like being like an American diplomat
and going to China.
Like, and first of all, everything you do and everything, how you behave and your cultural,
sorry, your corporal body language, but also what you eat and how you eat it, you know,
that's also super interesting.
Yeah, for sure.
For sure.
I mean, that's kind of like, especially in cultures where food is has a different kind
of like not meaning but like feel to it in a way, like food cultures are like so slightly
different in every country.
You know, I'm not saying that in some countries food is more important than in others, although
that is kind of the case, you know, but it's like food and the communal aspect of food
and how it ties people in the community together is like, is very different, you know, and
that's really interesting that it's like, I can really imagine that being like that,
you know, in China.
All right.
Well, we have any other heroes?
I can think of more villains than heroes, you know, and that.
I would include Pedrito Sanchez as a chef.
As a hero?
Yeah, that's a hero.
Let me show you.
I have something from him here.
Let me show you my screen.
So there's this chef from Hai'en.
Hai'en is a less visited region in Andalusia, which is a very touristic region.
But for some reason, Hai'en has set behind probably because they don't have coast.
So this guy opened this restaurant in 2018.
It's the smallest Michelin.
For me, this is one of the most exciting cuisines in Spain right now because it's so radical,
minimalistic and so clever.
So this guy opened this restaurant in 2018 and it's the smallest restaurant with a, are
you seeing my screen now?
Yeah.
It's the smallest restaurant with a Michelin star.
And he never puts more than two elements in a dish.
This is his whole staff is like just five people.
It's him plus two chefs.
He has just like a home kitchen, a microwave, a Korean cooker, a sous vide machine, and
that's it.
And all of the dishes are just, you know, two elements and they're usually pretty clever.
For instance, one of his key, his most classics is a cream of, or like a foam of eel skin
with an oxidized pear.
And that's it.
Sounds delicious.
Just two elements.
Yeah.
Or like a nice piece of steak with vanilla.
That's it.
Salt.
That's it.
Interesting.
And then he has like this really conceptual things like with just two elements where he
really breaks boundaries.
And I had actually the opportunity to talk with him.
He did a dinner that's also worth mentioning and the last Michelin gala, there were four
new Michelin stars in high end where he's from.
And all of them are kind of like related to him or inspired by him.
So he's actually creating like a gastronomic movement in that province from his little
kitchen.
It's the smallest Michelin restaurant, Michelin star restaurant in Europe.
There are only like 12 seats.
All the menus are like a hundred euros.
And you will see pictures in his social media of Perran Adria, the chef from Alchemist and
all these superstars chefs going there to eat.
You know, like he's really respected in the food world, in the restaurant world.
It looks really nice.
Sounds really interesting.
He has this dessert where he does like lettuces, like salads and syrup with cream ice cream
with rice vinegar.
You remember when we had this idea of making like a sushi rice ice cream?
Yes.
Kind of like it.
Yes.
So I had it.
I had this dessert and it was really incredible.
But more interesting for me, it was not like me and my snobby children are your friends
talking about this dessert.
For me, it was more interesting.
We had like in the table with us because it was like a round table, there was a couple
that these were like really non-pretentious normal people, you know, from here, from San
Sebastian and they get this dessert.
You know, this was really interesting to watch.
They get like a dessert of salad with syrup and an ice cream of sushi rice vinegar.
And they were really amazed.
And when they tried, they were like, wow, this is really nice.
This is really nice to have this.
And I asked Pedrito Sanchez, like, how did you come up with this dessert?
And he said, like, well, after you have like a long menu, like you had so many dishes,
why do you have to have pastries?
Why do you have to have biscuits and cakes and all of these kinds of things?
These things are better meant to have like tea in the afternoon.
But like after a long menu, perhaps you want something really light.
So my idea was to do like an anti-dessert.
So I wanted to make like a salad to finish the menu.
And I was like, oh, wow, that's, you know, like conceptually, that's also like really
smart to put it that way.
That's really cool.
I love that.
It's also super cool because it's like it's intelligent, but it's not intelligent for
the sake of being intelligent.
You know what I mean?
It's not like trying to be like, oh yeah, you know, like I have a crazy idea and I just
push it through, you know, it actually makes sense.
I think making something like this, it's a thin line between being a genius or an absolute
idiot.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
Like no, no in between.
If you put a salad for dessert, either it really works for everyone or it doesn't, you
know, and this really worked.
I think that's the key.
Yeah, absolutely.
That's it for this week's episode of Potluck Food Talks.
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