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Hi everyone, welcome to Potluck Food Talks. Today we have a very special guest, Nabila

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Rodriguez. She's a gastronomic scientist and soon to become, if everything goes right,

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the third doctor in gastronomic sciences in history. Hi Nabila, how are you?

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Hello Erics. Hopefully I will be the third, but yes, that is a huge title. I'm scared

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about that.

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Yeah, like next month you're presenting your thesis, right?

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Yes, next month, by the end of the next month, yeah.

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And what's the topic of your thesis?

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The topic I have been researching about the sensation is a Japanese name called Koku.

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I analyzed all the protein behind and how we can increase the palatability in plant-based

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food in order to accelerate the inter-anthesia.

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Well the reason I invited Nabila today is not to talk about science, but also to mention

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she has worked at Harvard University assisting in the cooking and science course and also

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the development lab of Alchemist in Copenhagen. But today we're not going to talk about that.

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We're going to talk about Canarian gastronomy since she's from the Canary Islands. First

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of all, what are the main components of Canarian gastronomy? I know the arugadas, potatoes,

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are very famous. There is a lot of relationship also between Venezuela and the Canary Islands.

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There was a lot of exchange during the colonial times and also our accents are very similar,

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which I didn't know, but it's related. It's because of that, for the exchange in colonial

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times.

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But going back to the topic, what to do with Canarian food? I know you have plantains, cheese,

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potatoes.

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The Canarian area is a quite interesting area in Europe because we are very close to Africa,

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but we belong to Europe. But also we have a lot of connection with South America. So

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that's the reason we build a gastronomy very different than the rest of Spain based on

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a lot of potatoes, for sure. That's the reason one of the most traditional and famous dish

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is papas arugadas.

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And then we have a lot of tomatoes, but also we have as well one of the avocado species

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in Europe because all of them are from South America. So we have our own species here.

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And also we have a coffee plantation and very unique wine because of our volcanic soil.

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So develop a very interesting and unique flavor through the fermentation process in wine.

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And also cheeses. We eat a lot of cheese and we have a different technique of fermentation

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as well. So that's the reason we are very different than the rest of Spain because our

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interaction between Africa, Europe, and of course, and is the strongest, is South America.

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Because geographically you could say it's Africa.

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Exactly, exactly.

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Yeah, I've been to the Canary Islands, but I also have to say the arugadas potatoes,

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it's life into that because that's something my dad would cook in Venezuela at home. And

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it's an interesting way of cooking potatoes because you want to do this with small potatoes.

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Like let's say, the rat could be a good potato for that. And you cook it in a very, very,

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very salty water, like over salted. And once the potatoes are cooked, you open the lid

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of the pot and you let all the water evaporate. And this makes like a salt crust around the

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skin of the potato. And arugadas means wrinkled. So the potatoes get like this shape. And these

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are extremely delicious with mojo rojo. What is mojo rojo? It's one of the signature salsas

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of Canary in gastronomy.

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Yes, one of the...

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Mojo pecan, sorry.

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Mojo pecan, yes, exactly. And we have a red mojo and a green rojo. For potatoes is red

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and it's a sauce. Actually, mojo is from Portugal, means sauce, basically. And it's based on

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paprika and depending on the season, we can add different ingredients because something

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that is very unique in Canarian gastronomy is like Canary always has been a very poor

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area. So we're trying to use all the ingredients that make something very simple but tasty.

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That for example mojo and potato. Potato is just potato with salt, but we have the way

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and the method, the cooking method in order to prepare a very delicious and tasty dish.

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So mojo is based on paprika, basically. But then depending on the season, for example,

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we have an almond season. So when we have an almond season, we add season. And it depends,

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of course, the area in the Canary Islands where you are. If you have almonds, you add

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almonds. Also cumin, salt, and oil for sure. And then depending on the family, there is

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a lot of recipes around the mojo pecan because each family has their own recipe. But basically

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the base for mojo is paprika, cumin, salt, olive oil, and a bit of vinegar as well.

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What kind of paprika do you use? Is it like a dry, rehydrated one or like ñora or this

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kind or...? We have it nowadays. Everyone is using the

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normal paprika, but we have a specific one, very, very spicy. Nowadays a lot of people

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don't use a lot of spicy ones because they don't like the spicy one, but the original

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one is using the small one that is like kind of chili. But for us, we call it pimiento.

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But it's a kind of chili. Very typical here in the Canary Islands as well.

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And do you use it roasted or raw? It depends on the recipe. For me or for my

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family, my recipe is we roast a bit the paprika and then mix everything together. But depending

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on the family, some of them use raw paprika. Because the first time I got to know the mojo

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pecan, it was a very bastardized version, but a very delicious one and double bastardized

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because this was a Spanish restaurant in Berlin where I was working. So it was like adapted

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recipes for the German public, but at the same time with the ingredients that were available.

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So we would make like a blend of piquillo peppers and garlic, cumin, coriander seeds.

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And this was delicious. We would serve this with the browse. Also, the color was very

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beautiful. It was like a very vibrant red. But then I went to the Canary Islands and

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everybody was like, oh, blasphemy. What are you doing?

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Honestly, here, I think that is the way or the principle to make mojo, like use whatever

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you have around you because it's very traditional. Of course, here, for example, we have some

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specific and want to try to keep our recipe all the time. So that's a reason for a lot

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of people here in the Canary Islands when somebody use something completely different

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like, no, no, no, no, that is no mojo. That could be something else, but no mojo. And

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yes, we try to keep our tradition.

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And what about the green one? The green one is like with coriander, right? Like fresh

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coriander and oil or am I wrong? Yes, coriander, oil, a bit of vinegar as well,

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salt, and sometimes people use green paprika as well, depending on what they have at home.

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And it's normally used for fish. Seafood.

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And sometimes for seafood in general, we have another very traditional dish that is a kind

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of a shelf called Lapa. I don't know in English, but it's a very small shelf with a piece of

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meat. And we use green mojo for that as well.

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Yeah, it's similar to the scallop, something like that.

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Kind of a scallop, but smaller than the scallop. Yeah, but it's kind of a scallop. Yes.

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Okay, okay, okay. And what else do I know about the... You also have gophe, right? Like

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this is an interesting, like an interesting grain. What I understand is that originally

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it was made with wheat and then with the colonies it was made into corn. This is very common

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in Venezuela, you know, like in popular neighborhoods, you will find very often people using it a

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lot. And I mean, makes a lot of sense because

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of the connection between the Canary Islands and Venezuela. Actually, a lot of people in

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the Canary Islands are from Venezuela or even from Cuba. So the original gophe is from Bali

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and it's something from our indigenous people. So we have still that tradition, I think.

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We have very few traditions from indigenous people, so gophe is one of them. And originally

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it was made with barley. And then when we went to South America, we brought corn, so

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we start using corn instead of barley. And nowadays, all the gophe, nobody uses barley

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gophe anymore, always is with corn, toast corn gophe. And we eat for everything. Like

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we eat gophe with milk, we eat gophe with broth, we mix gophe, for example, with a lot

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of houses use the liquid from some vegetable soup and mix with gophe and then we eat it.

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So we eat gophe almost every day. Not for the new generation, let's say, because it's

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quite a unique flavor. Let's say unique, because especially for example, when I tried to introduce

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gophe with my friends from other countries, papas como is quite easy because everyone

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likes moja with potato. But gophe is still like very challenging taste for a lot of people.

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For us, gophe is quite unique because it reminds us when eating gophe when I was a kid. So

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for me, it's so special food and also because it's quite a staple food, like you can get

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all the energy and nutrients for there. So again, our gastronomy is based on very simple

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ingredients, but we try to make dishes very delicious with very common ingredients. Yes.

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Talking about gophe, have you been to gophe in Madrid?

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I've never been in gophe, but I know them very well. They have another restaurant here

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in Gran Canaria called Cuerno Cabra, but I really want to go.

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Yeah. So to mention a little bit, this is a couple,

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I'm afraid I don't remember their names, but I was there eating. They have this restaurant

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called Gofio in Madrid, which has a Michelin star and they are this guy like really like

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badass looking like old tattooed, like I don't know how to describe, maybe Roccabilly style,

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something like that. And he's a chef, she's the maître and the sommelier. And they do

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super ultra. They even have like a slogan like hyper canarian and something like that.

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Exactly. It's so cool. They are Aida and Safre. Yeah.

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Exactly. Yeah.

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And they are doing a very nice and very cool work because it is a Michelin star restaurant

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where a lot of people go there and try, I think, a real canarian food in a high quality

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level of canarian food because of course we don't, here in the Canary Islands, we don't

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eat like in Gofio if you go to Gofio, but in general, all the vibe and the taste and

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all the ingredients are very from the Canary Islands.

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Yeah, that's what I felt. Exactly. Like it's like a very elegant way of cooking, you know,

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very little elements, beautifully plated and every dish had like a story. Also the drinks,

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they would tell us like, yeah, this is like, I remember there was like a kind of like a

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roasted corn puree resembling Gofio and you could get these flavors, but in a very enhanced

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way of having those flavors. I really recommend Gofio in Madrid. Also the drinks. I was also

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in Canary Islands once and you mentioned the minerality of wine. I was eating a Kabuki

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because a friend of mine used to work there. So I was having mostly sushi, but all of the

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drinks were Canary wines. And I remember, yeah, the minerality is amazing. And there

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was even one that it had a smell of plantain, but they told me, no, this is also like an

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effect of the minerals. This has nothing to do with the plantains growing in the island

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and everything. Yes. Also wine for us is quite, it's getting

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very famous now. For example, I have a good friend who is a winemaker producing his project

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this Bien de Altura and he's trying to produce a natural wine. And the taste of wine is very

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characteristic here from Canary Islands because we are a volcanic island. So you can drink

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a bit of the Canary Islands through our wines. It's quite unique because none of them even

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taste like eggs. Of course, because our soil and the high minerality in our soil. So you

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can taste as well through our wines, Canaria, basically. Yeah. Sounds very romantic, but

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it is. Do you have like a wine denomination like in the Canary Islands?

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Yes, actually we have one per each island. And no La Graciosa because it's quite new

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La Graciosa as an island. But all of the islands, we are now eight, but seven of them are specific

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denomination of wine. Yeah. Okay. What about cheeses? You also have

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like a super particular kinds of cheeses, right? Yes. We love, in general, Canarian

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people love cheeses. And sometimes when people say, why in Spain we don't know anything about

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Canarian cheeses, I always answer the same thing. Like we eat all the cheeses, so we

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don't have cheeses to bring to Spain. And it's quite, for example, there is one very

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characteristic and there is a called queso de flor. In English is a flower cheese. And

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the coagulation is through a specific plant, a specific flower. They use the enzymatic

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activity from the flower in order to coagulate milk. And also those kind of cheeses are from

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transhumansia. Yeah, that's like, like being nomads, right?

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Exactly. So still many of the, at least two families in Gran Canaria, and talking about

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Gran Canaria, my island, they still doing that. So the-

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Shepherds, shepherds more than nomads. Yeah. Okay. Probably the milk is completely different

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because all the animals are eating around different areas and different plants around

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Gran Canaria. And you can taste that as well in the cheese. But basically the most interesting

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part is the way that we made the cheeses to flower. So it's quite interesting as well

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and so delicious. Oh, nice. That's super, super interesting. What

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about desserts, sweets? Well, what is the typical sweet, something with plantain maybe?

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You have a lot of plantain. We have a lot of desserts based on almond

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because we have a lot of almond tree. Okay.

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One of them is Bien Me Sabe. I don't know how to translate that in English.

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But we also have that in Venezuela. Really?

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Yeah, yeah. Like I don't know if it's the same version, but Bien Me Sabe, it tastes

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good to me, like in one word, everything together. But how is the Canarian one? I couldn't even

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tell how the Venezuelan one is because it was not part of my childhood memory. But I

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know there is a dessert called Bien Me Sabe. Honestly, I don't know exactly the recipe,

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but it's mostly based on almond and it's so sweet. That is the only thing that I can

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tell you that it's so sweet that the reason for me is quite challenging taste. But people

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use for everything, for pudding, for everything, we add Bien Me Sabe. And it's quite traditional

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here, but also, of course, Gofio mousse. We use Gofio for all the versions. For everything,

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we use Gofio. I mean, you've been living abroad so much

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in different countries and I can imagine there is always a situation where you have to cook

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for friends and they always ask to make something from your homeland. What is your weapon of

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choice when you have to cook for friends in a dinner party?

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Yes, I've been living in different countries and of course, always I have to cook something

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because I'm always talking about my island, so people say, okay, you have to cook for

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us. So, normally I cook potatoes with mojo because it's quite easy and it's very tasty.

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And then once I made sancocho. Sancocho is a dish probably you have as well in Venezuela.

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And in many countries in South America, they also have sancocho, everyone with a single

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version. And this dish reminds me because it's very

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traditional for Easter week and it's based on potatoes, sweet potatoes, fish and Gofio.

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We call that Gofio Pella because it's Gofio with water and salt.

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It's like a soup, right? No, everything is separate. No, it's not a

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soup. Probably it's completely different. And once I made sancocho as well, people love

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it, but Gofio is still a very challenged flavor for people who don't grow up with that flavor.

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Yeah, and now that we talk about Canary and food and everything, I also wanted to make

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some questions about your life as a gastronomic scientist. I know there are disclosure agreements

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and everything, but how is the life of a gastronomic scientist working in a lab, of a restaurant?

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What is the day-to-day activity? How do you work?

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I'm a completely different person when I work in a lab than when I work in a restaurant

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because first of all, gastronomic scientists are kind of people in between everything in

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gastronomy. For example, for me, I worked in the restaurant

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in Copenhagen for more than four weeks. And for me, the way that chefs work are completely

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different than the scientists work, so I have to get used to especially the velocity, the

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speed. In the kitchen, the chef is always running all the time. And for me, I have to

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research a bit. I have to read before going to the kitchen. So, take time. So, it's a

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bit controversial sometimes for me because I want to run like a chef, but at the same

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time I need time to read and to understand, to describe or design my experiment. So, at

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the beginning it was a bit challenging to work in a restaurant, especially because we

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are the queer people working in a kitchen because we are not chefs, but also at the

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same time we are not natural scientists, like a proper natural scientist. So, at some point

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of my career I was wondering like, who I am actually because I'm not a chef, I'm not a

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natural scientist anymore, I'm in the middle. So, if I have to describe my daily routine

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as a gastronomic scientist, I can describe as a bridge between science, natural science

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or social science and chef. Because even if we think that we speak the same language,

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we don't. So, that's the reason a lot of time scientists and chefs don't understand

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between each other. So, for me, mostly it's the bridge between them and trying to translate

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the knowledge between both fields basically. And I guess that's also the key difference

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between a gastronomic scientist and a food scientist because I had experiences with food

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scientists that they're very technical and for them sometimes they don't care or they

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don't see the difference between making a cookie and food for pets because they're just

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looking on whatever, you know, like hydration, texture, this or that. While a gastronomic

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scientist, as you said, there is a lot of culture, cultural context and many other layers

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that make gastronomy something, right? Exactly, exactly. It's a good example, the difference

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between food scientists and gastronomic scientists because for me, being a gastronomic scientist

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is more focused in flavor, taking in consideration culture and tradition in food. That is the

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main difference between food scientists and gastronomic scientists. And as a gastronomic

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scientist, I know about a lot of methods in the kitchen and something that we are very

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focused in flavor because it's the most important part that also chefs are focused in flavor

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as well. So that's the reason we are in the middle. Yeah, we are the weird people.

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Yesterday, I was having a conversation about something similar. Someone was asking me,

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yeah, what about artificial intelligence? Will this take, will this start to design

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dishes and making flavor combinations and texture combinations and this and that? And

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I was, what I said is, okay, like the problem with that is that it's not a mathematical

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formula. It's not like you can mathematically or physical chemically prove that these two

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ingredients go together. I mean, there are approaches to do that, but at the end of the

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day, like the main, I think layer is the cultural layer. That's why you and Canary Islands like

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Gofio and people from other countries don't and there are like a million examples of like

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this. Exactly. AI are very controversial nowadays in gastronomy because as you said, it's not

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a one plus one is a two in gastronomy. It's something else and you have to keep in mind

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that when we eat something, we are a lot of different things playing an important role

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and of course, it's not just a sensor in our brain that we can detect sugar. A sensor,

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no, is playing a lot of different things like culture, experience, social experience. For

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example, I think food and eat is something that is always changing all the time through

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our experience as a human being. So of course, AI can help us in gastronomy, but I think

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we need people still working with the AI because it's not just mixing flavor and that's all.

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Like the example of Gofio, for example, for me it is used, but for my brain it's like,

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what is this? No, I completely agree. And there is like this kind of joke that anyone

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can try. Like if you put like the same thing, let's say a piece of chocolate and you cut

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it in four pieces and you put it on a plate and you give it to someone and you tell them

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it's four different ones, tell the difference, they will find differences and they will think

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it's different, you know, because there are so many things going on when you eat something

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that just with that piece of information, it changes your perception and they will say,

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ah, this is more sweet and this is more bitter and this is more this and this is more that

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and this is actually something that happens while you're in a wine tasting or a beer or

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tea tasting. Along the tasting, the same wine will change, will taste different because

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there are many variables that inside you and also in the environment that make something

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not stable, like a flavor or a perception. Yes, exactly. Even us, we are changing all

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the time the way that we perceive food because for me right now, as I've been living in many

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different countries, my perception around food is completely different than my family,

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even if I'm my family and I have a lot of DNA in common. But food is something else.

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People think that food is quite simple because we eat a few times per day, we are very lucky

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and people forgot about all the process behind that. And that's something that we studied

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as an astronomy scientist, like everything behind process, very natural science but also

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including different actors such as traditional knowledge, cultural knowledge, a lot of different

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things that are playing an important role because as you said with wine, depending on

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our experience, depending on how many wines we have been tasting before, our perception

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of that wine could be completely different than the person who is next to me. And of

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course because we are completely different. I once saw also a super interesting experiment,

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there was like this cream, like a sweet cream, right? And you had like two different spoons,

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one spoon had like a rusty kind of thing on the grip, so it was kind of uncomfortable

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in the grip where you would take it, and the other one had like a Furby, like something

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really soft, and it would taste different because your brain processes the moment of

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tasting different if you have a different stimulant. And that's really interesting also

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to know.

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Even for example the light, when we eat in a very cozy place with a very slow light,

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the food tastes completely different than when we eat in a normal cafeteria with a very

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bright white light. Because it's crazy how many factors are involved when we eat a piece

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of something. It's crazy. I mean for me it's wow, all the time it's like wow, even if I've

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been working a lot around food it's always like wow, human beings are amazing for me.

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No, no, no, it's incredible for sure. Like understanding the whole sensory perception

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of everything. Another thing I wanted to ask you is, I got the chance to see you when I

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was in Boston. I was visiting Patricia Jurado, I interviewed her in the cheesecake, Basque

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cheesecake episode, and it was your last day at Harvard. You were super sad because you

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didn't want to leave. What can you share about that experience working at Harvard, at the

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science and cooking course? I guess you had the opportunity to see a lot of lecturers,

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a lot of interesting people. Was there like something you could highlight and share?

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I mean just the highlight is to be at Harvard. I mean I've never, I mean in my, I couldn't

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imagine that I could be in a university at Harvard. And when I was there it was amazing

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because the way that they teach science through gastronomy, I think is, and a lot of universities

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around the world is doing the same based on a science and cooking course at Harvard. So

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if, I mean it's very simple. The highlight is to be at Harvard, working with very amazing

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people. And of course, because during my career a lot of people think that gastronomy or gastronomic

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scientists is just going to the kitchen and cooking. And when you are in an institution

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as Harvard and they have gastronomy at the same level as science, it's like wow, that

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is so important to share around the world because gastronomy and food is important for

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human beings. So something that I would like to highlight in my, is that like the same

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position. And I saw a lot of students that who studied completely different bachelor,

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very focused and very enthusiastic to go and work in a restaurant and learn about fermentation

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for example, or learn about sugar or some specific topic. And it's quite interesting

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how they start being very enthusiastic in gastronomy for those kind of course.

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That course is amazing. I don't know if they still do, but like many years ago I got to

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see a lot of the whole classes published on YouTube. And basically what they do is they

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invite famous chefs to, let's say, let's talk about emulsion as a scientific or physical

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chemical concept. So they bring, I remember it was from Can Giovanni, the Catalan chef,

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and he would make like an alioli in the ancient way with his bare hands, only garlic and oil.

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And he was sweating there doing the emulsion in front of everyone. And also like many chefs

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like Grant Hackett, David Chang, Harold McGee, the big names in the industry.

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Yes, that is also very nice from Harvard because they invite chefs. And also something very

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interesting that is a public talk. And then they have a class with all the students, but

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they open the course for everyone in Boston to want to learn about science and gastronomy.

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So it's quite nice to be involved in this process. And yeah, that is the highlight of

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my course. I was so sad when I was there before coming to Europe because yeah, everything

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for me there was like, wow, everything was super new because I was there because I was

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finishing my master's, so it was very new in gastronomy and science. So for me, everything

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there was like, wow, wow, I want to be there. It's a beautiful city.

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Yes, exactly. Yes. Plus it's a beautiful city. Yeah.

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That's it for this week's episode of Potluck Food Talks. If you like what we're doing,

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make sure to subscribe to the podcast so you never miss an episode. You can also find us

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