Hi everyone, welcome to Potluck Food Talks. Today we have a very special guest, Nabila
Rodriguez. She's a gastronomic scientist and soon to become, if everything goes right,
the third doctor in gastronomic sciences in history. Hi Nabila, how are you?
Hello Erics. Hopefully I will be the third, but yes, that is a huge title. I'm scared
about that.
Yeah, like next month you're presenting your thesis, right?
Yes, next month, by the end of the next month, yeah.
And what's the topic of your thesis?
The topic I have been researching about the sensation is a Japanese name called Koku.
I analyzed all the protein behind and how we can increase the palatability in plant-based
food in order to accelerate the inter-anthesia.
Well the reason I invited Nabila today is not to talk about science, but also to mention
she has worked at Harvard University assisting in the cooking and science course and also
the development lab of Alchemist in Copenhagen. But today we're not going to talk about that.
We're going to talk about Canarian gastronomy since she's from the Canary Islands. First
of all, what are the main components of Canarian gastronomy? I know the arugadas, potatoes,
are very famous. There is a lot of relationship also between Venezuela and the Canary Islands.
There was a lot of exchange during the colonial times and also our accents are very similar,
which I didn't know, but it's related. It's because of that, for the exchange in colonial
times.
But going back to the topic, what to do with Canarian food? I know you have plantains, cheese,
potatoes.
The Canarian area is a quite interesting area in Europe because we are very close to Africa,
but we belong to Europe. But also we have a lot of connection with South America. So
that's the reason we build a gastronomy very different than the rest of Spain based on
a lot of potatoes, for sure. That's the reason one of the most traditional and famous dish
is papas arugadas.
And then we have a lot of tomatoes, but also we have as well one of the avocado species
in Europe because all of them are from South America. So we have our own species here.
And also we have a coffee plantation and very unique wine because of our volcanic soil.
So develop a very interesting and unique flavor through the fermentation process in wine.
And also cheeses. We eat a lot of cheese and we have a different technique of fermentation
as well. So that's the reason we are very different than the rest of Spain because our
interaction between Africa, Europe, and of course, and is the strongest, is South America.
Because geographically you could say it's Africa.
Exactly, exactly.
Yeah, I've been to the Canary Islands, but I also have to say the arugadas potatoes,
it's life into that because that's something my dad would cook in Venezuela at home. And
it's an interesting way of cooking potatoes because you want to do this with small potatoes.
Like let's say, the rat could be a good potato for that. And you cook it in a very, very,
very salty water, like over salted. And once the potatoes are cooked, you open the lid
of the pot and you let all the water evaporate. And this makes like a salt crust around the
skin of the potato. And arugadas means wrinkled. So the potatoes get like this shape. And these
are extremely delicious with mojo rojo. What is mojo rojo? It's one of the signature salsas
of Canary in gastronomy.
Yes, one of the...
Mojo pecan, sorry.
Mojo pecan, yes, exactly. And we have a red mojo and a green rojo. For potatoes is red
and it's a sauce. Actually, mojo is from Portugal, means sauce, basically. And it's based on
paprika and depending on the season, we can add different ingredients because something
that is very unique in Canarian gastronomy is like Canary always has been a very poor
area. So we're trying to use all the ingredients that make something very simple but tasty.
That for example mojo and potato. Potato is just potato with salt, but we have the way
and the method, the cooking method in order to prepare a very delicious and tasty dish.
So mojo is based on paprika, basically. But then depending on the season, for example,
we have an almond season. So when we have an almond season, we add season. And it depends,
of course, the area in the Canary Islands where you are. If you have almonds, you add
almonds. Also cumin, salt, and oil for sure. And then depending on the family, there is
a lot of recipes around the mojo pecan because each family has their own recipe. But basically
the base for mojo is paprika, cumin, salt, olive oil, and a bit of vinegar as well.
What kind of paprika do you use? Is it like a dry, rehydrated one or like ñora or this
kind or...? We have it nowadays. Everyone is using the
normal paprika, but we have a specific one, very, very spicy. Nowadays a lot of people
don't use a lot of spicy ones because they don't like the spicy one, but the original
one is using the small one that is like kind of chili. But for us, we call it pimiento.
But it's a kind of chili. Very typical here in the Canary Islands as well.
And do you use it roasted or raw? It depends on the recipe. For me or for my
family, my recipe is we roast a bit the paprika and then mix everything together. But depending
on the family, some of them use raw paprika. Because the first time I got to know the mojo
pecan, it was a very bastardized version, but a very delicious one and double bastardized
because this was a Spanish restaurant in Berlin where I was working. So it was like adapted
recipes for the German public, but at the same time with the ingredients that were available.
So we would make like a blend of piquillo peppers and garlic, cumin, coriander seeds.
And this was delicious. We would serve this with the browse. Also, the color was very
beautiful. It was like a very vibrant red. But then I went to the Canary Islands and
everybody was like, oh, blasphemy. What are you doing?
Honestly, here, I think that is the way or the principle to make mojo, like use whatever
you have around you because it's very traditional. Of course, here, for example, we have some
specific and want to try to keep our recipe all the time. So that's a reason for a lot
of people here in the Canary Islands when somebody use something completely different
like, no, no, no, no, that is no mojo. That could be something else, but no mojo. And
yes, we try to keep our tradition.
And what about the green one? The green one is like with coriander, right? Like fresh
coriander and oil or am I wrong? Yes, coriander, oil, a bit of vinegar as well,
salt, and sometimes people use green paprika as well, depending on what they have at home.
And it's normally used for fish. Seafood.
And sometimes for seafood in general, we have another very traditional dish that is a kind
of a shelf called Lapa. I don't know in English, but it's a very small shelf with a piece of
meat. And we use green mojo for that as well.
Yeah, it's similar to the scallop, something like that.
Kind of a scallop, but smaller than the scallop. Yeah, but it's kind of a scallop. Yes.
Okay, okay, okay. And what else do I know about the... You also have gophe, right? Like
this is an interesting, like an interesting grain. What I understand is that originally
it was made with wheat and then with the colonies it was made into corn. This is very common
in Venezuela, you know, like in popular neighborhoods, you will find very often people using it a
lot. And I mean, makes a lot of sense because
of the connection between the Canary Islands and Venezuela. Actually, a lot of people in
the Canary Islands are from Venezuela or even from Cuba. So the original gophe is from Bali
and it's something from our indigenous people. So we have still that tradition, I think.
We have very few traditions from indigenous people, so gophe is one of them. And originally
it was made with barley. And then when we went to South America, we brought corn, so
we start using corn instead of barley. And nowadays, all the gophe, nobody uses barley
gophe anymore, always is with corn, toast corn gophe. And we eat for everything. Like
we eat gophe with milk, we eat gophe with broth, we mix gophe, for example, with a lot
of houses use the liquid from some vegetable soup and mix with gophe and then we eat it.
So we eat gophe almost every day. Not for the new generation, let's say, because it's
quite a unique flavor. Let's say unique, because especially for example, when I tried to introduce
gophe with my friends from other countries, papas como is quite easy because everyone
likes moja with potato. But gophe is still like very challenging taste for a lot of people.
For us, gophe is quite unique because it reminds us when eating gophe when I was a kid. So
for me, it's so special food and also because it's quite a staple food, like you can get
all the energy and nutrients for there. So again, our gastronomy is based on very simple
ingredients, but we try to make dishes very delicious with very common ingredients. Yes.
Talking about gophe, have you been to gophe in Madrid?
I've never been in gophe, but I know them very well. They have another restaurant here
in Gran Canaria called Cuerno Cabra, but I really want to go.
Yeah. So to mention a little bit, this is a couple,
I'm afraid I don't remember their names, but I was there eating. They have this restaurant
called Gofio in Madrid, which has a Michelin star and they are this guy like really like
badass looking like old tattooed, like I don't know how to describe, maybe Roccabilly style,
something like that. And he's a chef, she's the maître and the sommelier. And they do
super ultra. They even have like a slogan like hyper canarian and something like that.
Exactly. It's so cool. They are Aida and Safre. Yeah.
Exactly. Yeah.
And they are doing a very nice and very cool work because it is a Michelin star restaurant
where a lot of people go there and try, I think, a real canarian food in a high quality
level of canarian food because of course we don't, here in the Canary Islands, we don't
eat like in Gofio if you go to Gofio, but in general, all the vibe and the taste and
all the ingredients are very from the Canary Islands.
Yeah, that's what I felt. Exactly. Like it's like a very elegant way of cooking, you know,
very little elements, beautifully plated and every dish had like a story. Also the drinks,
they would tell us like, yeah, this is like, I remember there was like a kind of like a
roasted corn puree resembling Gofio and you could get these flavors, but in a very enhanced
way of having those flavors. I really recommend Gofio in Madrid. Also the drinks. I was also
in Canary Islands once and you mentioned the minerality of wine. I was eating a Kabuki
because a friend of mine used to work there. So I was having mostly sushi, but all of the
drinks were Canary wines. And I remember, yeah, the minerality is amazing. And there
was even one that it had a smell of plantain, but they told me, no, this is also like an
effect of the minerals. This has nothing to do with the plantains growing in the island
and everything. Yes. Also wine for us is quite, it's getting
very famous now. For example, I have a good friend who is a winemaker producing his project
this Bien de Altura and he's trying to produce a natural wine. And the taste of wine is very
characteristic here from Canary Islands because we are a volcanic island. So you can drink
a bit of the Canary Islands through our wines. It's quite unique because none of them even
taste like eggs. Of course, because our soil and the high minerality in our soil. So you
can taste as well through our wines, Canaria, basically. Yeah. Sounds very romantic, but
it is. Do you have like a wine denomination like in the Canary Islands?
Yes, actually we have one per each island. And no La Graciosa because it's quite new
La Graciosa as an island. But all of the islands, we are now eight, but seven of them are specific
denomination of wine. Yeah. Okay. What about cheeses? You also have
like a super particular kinds of cheeses, right? Yes. We love, in general, Canarian
people love cheeses. And sometimes when people say, why in Spain we don't know anything about
Canarian cheeses, I always answer the same thing. Like we eat all the cheeses, so we
don't have cheeses to bring to Spain. And it's quite, for example, there is one very
characteristic and there is a called queso de flor. In English is a flower cheese. And
the coagulation is through a specific plant, a specific flower. They use the enzymatic
activity from the flower in order to coagulate milk. And also those kind of cheeses are from
transhumansia. Yeah, that's like, like being nomads, right?
Exactly. So still many of the, at least two families in Gran Canaria, and talking about
Gran Canaria, my island, they still doing that. So the-
Shepherds, shepherds more than nomads. Yeah. Okay. Probably the milk is completely different
because all the animals are eating around different areas and different plants around
Gran Canaria. And you can taste that as well in the cheese. But basically the most interesting
part is the way that we made the cheeses to flower. So it's quite interesting as well
and so delicious. Oh, nice. That's super, super interesting. What
about desserts, sweets? Well, what is the typical sweet, something with plantain maybe?
You have a lot of plantain. We have a lot of desserts based on almond
because we have a lot of almond tree. Okay.
One of them is Bien Me Sabe. I don't know how to translate that in English.
But we also have that in Venezuela. Really?
Yeah, yeah. Like I don't know if it's the same version, but Bien Me Sabe, it tastes
good to me, like in one word, everything together. But how is the Canarian one? I couldn't even
tell how the Venezuelan one is because it was not part of my childhood memory. But I
know there is a dessert called Bien Me Sabe. Honestly, I don't know exactly the recipe,
but it's mostly based on almond and it's so sweet. That is the only thing that I can
tell you that it's so sweet that the reason for me is quite challenging taste. But people
use for everything, for pudding, for everything, we add Bien Me Sabe. And it's quite traditional
here, but also, of course, Gofio mousse. We use Gofio for all the versions. For everything,
we use Gofio. I mean, you've been living abroad so much
in different countries and I can imagine there is always a situation where you have to cook
for friends and they always ask to make something from your homeland. What is your weapon of
choice when you have to cook for friends in a dinner party?
Yes, I've been living in different countries and of course, always I have to cook something
because I'm always talking about my island, so people say, okay, you have to cook for
us. So, normally I cook potatoes with mojo because it's quite easy and it's very tasty.
And then once I made sancocho. Sancocho is a dish probably you have as well in Venezuela.
And in many countries in South America, they also have sancocho, everyone with a single
version. And this dish reminds me because it's very
traditional for Easter week and it's based on potatoes, sweet potatoes, fish and Gofio.
We call that Gofio Pella because it's Gofio with water and salt.
It's like a soup, right? No, everything is separate. No, it's not a
soup. Probably it's completely different. And once I made sancocho as well, people love
it, but Gofio is still a very challenged flavor for people who don't grow up with that flavor.
Yeah, and now that we talk about Canary and food and everything, I also wanted to make
some questions about your life as a gastronomic scientist. I know there are disclosure agreements
and everything, but how is the life of a gastronomic scientist working in a lab, of a restaurant?
What is the day-to-day activity? How do you work?
I'm a completely different person when I work in a lab than when I work in a restaurant
because first of all, gastronomic scientists are kind of people in between everything in
gastronomy. For example, for me, I worked in the restaurant
in Copenhagen for more than four weeks. And for me, the way that chefs work are completely
different than the scientists work, so I have to get used to especially the velocity, the
speed. In the kitchen, the chef is always running all the time. And for me, I have to
research a bit. I have to read before going to the kitchen. So, take time. So, it's a
bit controversial sometimes for me because I want to run like a chef, but at the same
time I need time to read and to understand, to describe or design my experiment. So, at
the beginning it was a bit challenging to work in a restaurant, especially because we
are the queer people working in a kitchen because we are not chefs, but also at the
same time we are not natural scientists, like a proper natural scientist. So, at some point
of my career I was wondering like, who I am actually because I'm not a chef, I'm not a
natural scientist anymore, I'm in the middle. So, if I have to describe my daily routine
as a gastronomic scientist, I can describe as a bridge between science, natural science
or social science and chef. Because even if we think that we speak the same language,
we don't. So, that's the reason a lot of time scientists and chefs don't understand
between each other. So, for me, mostly it's the bridge between them and trying to translate
the knowledge between both fields basically. And I guess that's also the key difference
between a gastronomic scientist and a food scientist because I had experiences with food
scientists that they're very technical and for them sometimes they don't care or they
don't see the difference between making a cookie and food for pets because they're just
looking on whatever, you know, like hydration, texture, this or that. While a gastronomic
scientist, as you said, there is a lot of culture, cultural context and many other layers
that make gastronomy something, right? Exactly, exactly. It's a good example, the difference
between food scientists and gastronomic scientists because for me, being a gastronomic scientist
is more focused in flavor, taking in consideration culture and tradition in food. That is the
main difference between food scientists and gastronomic scientists. And as a gastronomic
scientist, I know about a lot of methods in the kitchen and something that we are very
focused in flavor because it's the most important part that also chefs are focused in flavor
as well. So that's the reason we are in the middle. Yeah, we are the weird people.
Yesterday, I was having a conversation about something similar. Someone was asking me,
yeah, what about artificial intelligence? Will this take, will this start to design
dishes and making flavor combinations and texture combinations and this and that? And
I was, what I said is, okay, like the problem with that is that it's not a mathematical
formula. It's not like you can mathematically or physical chemically prove that these two
ingredients go together. I mean, there are approaches to do that, but at the end of the
day, like the main, I think layer is the cultural layer. That's why you and Canary Islands like
Gofio and people from other countries don't and there are like a million examples of like
this. Exactly. AI are very controversial nowadays in gastronomy because as you said, it's not
a one plus one is a two in gastronomy. It's something else and you have to keep in mind
that when we eat something, we are a lot of different things playing an important role
and of course, it's not just a sensor in our brain that we can detect sugar. A sensor,
no, is playing a lot of different things like culture, experience, social experience. For
example, I think food and eat is something that is always changing all the time through
our experience as a human being. So of course, AI can help us in gastronomy, but I think
we need people still working with the AI because it's not just mixing flavor and that's all.
Like the example of Gofio, for example, for me it is used, but for my brain it's like,
what is this? No, I completely agree. And there is like this kind of joke that anyone
can try. Like if you put like the same thing, let's say a piece of chocolate and you cut
it in four pieces and you put it on a plate and you give it to someone and you tell them
it's four different ones, tell the difference, they will find differences and they will think
it's different, you know, because there are so many things going on when you eat something
that just with that piece of information, it changes your perception and they will say,
ah, this is more sweet and this is more bitter and this is more this and this is more that
and this is actually something that happens while you're in a wine tasting or a beer or
tea tasting. Along the tasting, the same wine will change, will taste different because
there are many variables that inside you and also in the environment that make something
not stable, like a flavor or a perception. Yes, exactly. Even us, we are changing all
the time the way that we perceive food because for me right now, as I've been living in many
different countries, my perception around food is completely different than my family,
even if I'm my family and I have a lot of DNA in common. But food is something else.
People think that food is quite simple because we eat a few times per day, we are very lucky
and people forgot about all the process behind that. And that's something that we studied
as an astronomy scientist, like everything behind process, very natural science but also
including different actors such as traditional knowledge, cultural knowledge, a lot of different
things that are playing an important role because as you said with wine, depending on
our experience, depending on how many wines we have been tasting before, our perception
of that wine could be completely different than the person who is next to me. And of
course because we are completely different. I once saw also a super interesting experiment,
there was like this cream, like a sweet cream, right? And you had like two different spoons,
one spoon had like a rusty kind of thing on the grip, so it was kind of uncomfortable
in the grip where you would take it, and the other one had like a Furby, like something
really soft, and it would taste different because your brain processes the moment of
tasting different if you have a different stimulant. And that's really interesting also
to know.
Even for example the light, when we eat in a very cozy place with a very slow light,
the food tastes completely different than when we eat in a normal cafeteria with a very
bright white light. Because it's crazy how many factors are involved when we eat a piece
of something. It's crazy. I mean for me it's wow, all the time it's like wow, even if I've
been working a lot around food it's always like wow, human beings are amazing for me.
No, no, no, it's incredible for sure. Like understanding the whole sensory perception
of everything. Another thing I wanted to ask you is, I got the chance to see you when I
was in Boston. I was visiting Patricia Jurado, I interviewed her in the cheesecake, Basque
cheesecake episode, and it was your last day at Harvard. You were super sad because you
didn't want to leave. What can you share about that experience working at Harvard, at the
science and cooking course? I guess you had the opportunity to see a lot of lecturers,
a lot of interesting people. Was there like something you could highlight and share?
I mean just the highlight is to be at Harvard. I mean I've never, I mean in my, I couldn't
imagine that I could be in a university at Harvard. And when I was there it was amazing
because the way that they teach science through gastronomy, I think is, and a lot of universities
around the world is doing the same based on a science and cooking course at Harvard. So
if, I mean it's very simple. The highlight is to be at Harvard, working with very amazing
people. And of course, because during my career a lot of people think that gastronomy or gastronomic
scientists is just going to the kitchen and cooking. And when you are in an institution
as Harvard and they have gastronomy at the same level as science, it's like wow, that
is so important to share around the world because gastronomy and food is important for
human beings. So something that I would like to highlight in my, is that like the same
position. And I saw a lot of students that who studied completely different bachelor,
very focused and very enthusiastic to go and work in a restaurant and learn about fermentation
for example, or learn about sugar or some specific topic. And it's quite interesting
how they start being very enthusiastic in gastronomy for those kind of course.
That course is amazing. I don't know if they still do, but like many years ago I got to
see a lot of the whole classes published on YouTube. And basically what they do is they
invite famous chefs to, let's say, let's talk about emulsion as a scientific or physical
chemical concept. So they bring, I remember it was from Can Giovanni, the Catalan chef,
and he would make like an alioli in the ancient way with his bare hands, only garlic and oil.
And he was sweating there doing the emulsion in front of everyone. And also like many chefs
like Grant Hackett, David Chang, Harold McGee, the big names in the industry.
Yes, that is also very nice from Harvard because they invite chefs. And also something very
interesting that is a public talk. And then they have a class with all the students, but
they open the course for everyone in Boston to want to learn about science and gastronomy.
So it's quite nice to be involved in this process. And yeah, that is the highlight of
my course. I was so sad when I was there before coming to Europe because yeah, everything
for me there was like, wow, everything was super new because I was there because I was
finishing my master's, so it was very new in gastronomy and science. So for me, everything
there was like, wow, wow, I want to be there. It's a beautiful city.
Yes, exactly. Yes. Plus it's a beautiful city. Yeah.
That's it for this week's episode of Potluck Food Talks. If you like what we're doing,
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