1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:10,120 Hi everyone, welcome to Potluck Food Talks. Today we have a very special guest, Rebeca 2 00:00:10,120 --> 00:00:15,600 Perez-Geronimo. She's a publisher and we're going to talk about books. How are you, Rebeca? 3 00:00:15,600 --> 00:00:20,840 Hi, very nice to be here. Thank you for the invite. I have a lot of books around me, so 4 00:00:20,840 --> 00:00:23,840 I hope we can dig in and talk about them. 5 00:00:23,840 --> 00:00:29,080 Yeah, we were also talking about the Juju's that were recently in Venezuela and right 6 00:00:29,080 --> 00:00:33,400 now is a good moment to go because probably they're going to reactivate all the sanctions 7 00:00:33,400 --> 00:00:39,440 so this golden age that we're living right now is going to get over soon. What are your 8 00:00:39,440 --> 00:00:40,440 impressions on that? 9 00:00:40,440 --> 00:00:47,520 Yeah, it's very surreal. I actually recently started rereading A Hundred Years of Solitude, 10 00:00:47,520 --> 00:00:53,520 so Macondo and Garcia Marquez, and it reminded me so much of Latin American countries that 11 00:00:53,520 --> 00:00:59,640 are so surreal. So I've been living in Berlin for eight years and it was my first time coming 12 00:00:59,640 --> 00:01:05,280 back to Caracas. So I saw things differently from outside and when I was there I was like, 13 00:01:05,280 --> 00:01:12,200 this is so crazy. How can this be real? It's like a Macondo, of course. But yeah, I recommend 14 00:01:12,200 --> 00:01:17,360 very much traveling there right now. It was a really nice trip. Also food-wise, I got 15 00:01:17,360 --> 00:01:23,640 to reconnect a lot with my roots. So it was really nice for me to go back and cook with 16 00:01:23,640 --> 00:01:28,040 my aunts and do ayacas, arepas. 17 00:01:28,040 --> 00:01:31,440 Do you have any favorite Venezuelan food books? 18 00:01:31,440 --> 00:01:38,160 Well, the Bible, so Armando Scannone has taught me a lot because it's like a book that everyone 19 00:01:38,160 --> 00:01:44,680 had. No, like everyone had it at their homes. So I've learned a lot from that one in particular. 20 00:01:44,680 --> 00:01:50,800 Yeah, like his recipes, I know by fact that, well, his recipes, he was like this kind of, 21 00:01:50,800 --> 00:01:57,960 I will use the word aristocrat, like living in a large house and he had like this ladies 22 00:01:57,960 --> 00:02:03,720 that cooked at his house and these were actually the makers of that book. 23 00:02:03,720 --> 00:02:05,080 The cooks behind. 24 00:02:05,080 --> 00:02:11,020 Yeah, but what he did is he measured everything with precision and that's why his recipes 25 00:02:11,020 --> 00:02:15,680 are so good. So it's a great book, Mi Cocina of Armando Scannone to anyone who wants to 26 00:02:15,680 --> 00:02:20,000 get into Venezuelan cooking because the recipes just work and that's why everybody had that 27 00:02:20,000 --> 00:02:24,240 book. It's also like a really good reference. And I think that these kinds of things are 28 00:02:24,240 --> 00:02:30,120 important. I had lunch a few months ago with Narda Lepis and she was saying that everybody 29 00:02:30,120 --> 00:02:38,320 in Argentina cooks rice wrong because at some point there was some instruction somewhere 30 00:02:38,320 --> 00:02:43,080 like in a rice package that said that rice needed to be cooked like pasta, you know, 31 00:02:43,080 --> 00:02:48,040 like with lots of water and then straining it. So everybody was cooking rice like that 32 00:02:48,040 --> 00:02:52,160 because of that. That is funny. You know, so it's really important to like a good basis 33 00:02:52,160 --> 00:02:57,520 or a good reference. But at the same time, like talking to my family, like about recipes, 34 00:02:57,520 --> 00:03:02,840 because we did a Ayacas, which I don't know if you've discussed Ayacas in your podcast, 35 00:03:02,840 --> 00:03:09,720 but it's this very difficult dish that requires a lot of work. So families get together and 36 00:03:09,720 --> 00:03:14,640 they all have like their own recipe. But it's funny because I was asking them like, hi, 37 00:03:14,640 --> 00:03:18,560 give me a recipe. And it's like, they don't measure anything. Like they do have a reference 38 00:03:18,560 --> 00:03:24,520 of things, but they do not have like this scientific or methodological thing of like 39 00:03:24,520 --> 00:03:30,600 writing down and putting the numbers. So it's really difficult to get like a precision in 40 00:03:30,600 --> 00:03:37,000 the kitchen from the family. Yeah, I agree. I completely agree. You also mentioned a hundred 41 00:03:37,000 --> 00:03:41,600 years of solitude. And it's funny because when I was thinking about doing this talk 42 00:03:41,600 --> 00:03:47,100 with you and talking about books and literature and food, that's actually one of the books 43 00:03:47,100 --> 00:03:52,720 that came to my mind because there are a lot, I wouldn't say recipes, but like dishes that 44 00:03:52,720 --> 00:03:57,960 he mentions and they give like this whole layer to the book. And it's always like, yeah, 45 00:03:57,960 --> 00:04:01,560 I was making a soup and the soup had this and that, or someone cooked a soup that I 46 00:04:01,560 --> 00:04:06,480 did. And they just mentioned the main ingredients. And for some reason, I always remember soups 47 00:04:06,480 --> 00:04:12,020 with plantain in that book and a hundred years of solitude. And the other book that comes 48 00:04:12,020 --> 00:04:18,920 to my mind that has like a lot of dishes inside is Don Quixote. There has been a lot of, or 49 00:04:18,920 --> 00:04:25,640 at least a few cookbooks about Don Quixote, about the dishes in Don Quixote. And I imagine 50 00:04:25,640 --> 00:04:35,040 all these tools from Castilla and these kinds of things, you know, like from middle ages. 51 00:04:35,040 --> 00:04:42,080 Yeah. And I was, and I was waiting to document like a time and place and a way to eat. And 52 00:04:42,080 --> 00:04:46,880 I think both books do a good job at that. Yeah. I think when you start tracing back 53 00:04:46,880 --> 00:04:52,000 the histories behind dishes, like it can give you a lot of context. It's something that 54 00:04:52,000 --> 00:04:58,520 we do every day. So any detail like really tells you a lot about what's going on or yeah, 55 00:04:58,520 --> 00:05:04,440 the environment in general. So also like the way people speak about like how they cook, 56 00:05:04,440 --> 00:05:08,720 it's interesting. It's like we were discussing this thing about storytelling that I'm very 57 00:05:08,720 --> 00:05:15,480 drawn to. I studied literature. So of course, like we're discussing books. And for me, the 58 00:05:15,480 --> 00:05:21,560 story behind the recipes or the story behind what we eat is the most important thing, or 59 00:05:21,560 --> 00:05:27,560 at least one of the things that excite me the most, aside from cooking, aside from cooking 60 00:05:27,560 --> 00:05:33,800 and eating, of course. But like the reading the stories is really, really important. I 61 00:05:33,800 --> 00:05:40,960 have a lot of memoirs that are centered in food. And it's, I have a whole list that we 62 00:05:40,960 --> 00:05:46,960 can maybe like then start mentioning that we can recommend. It's in this simplicity 63 00:05:46,960 --> 00:05:54,000 and in this like very honest and intimate way of dealing with food that I am like super 64 00:05:54,000 --> 00:05:56,480 excited all the time, like with books in general. 65 00:05:56,480 --> 00:06:02,560 Yeah. But before we start, I want to mention my favorite food author. Well, I told you 66 00:06:02,560 --> 00:06:10,120 like, I just told you before the call that I started a food blog, just a few, like maybe 67 00:06:10,120 --> 00:06:15,040 two months, maybe three months. I'm publishing one article each week just to keep my pen 68 00:06:15,040 --> 00:06:20,680 sharp, you know, and it's a nice exercise because, you know, I have to, I also learned 69 00:06:20,680 --> 00:06:25,200 to make them shorter. Now I'm writing just five minute articles, just like a quick topic, 70 00:06:25,200 --> 00:06:29,560 a quick mention on something. And I think that's also better to read for anyone. So 71 00:06:29,560 --> 00:06:34,880 in the whole process of getting into food writing, because I'm also doing narrative 72 00:06:34,880 --> 00:06:39,640 on a different project, but food writing is like a different thing. It's its own thing. 73 00:06:39,640 --> 00:06:45,560 And I would say my favorite author and the most influential for sure for me has been 74 00:06:45,560 --> 00:06:55,600 when it comes to just food is MFK Fisher. And well, I discovered her on a Japanese cookbook 75 00:06:55,600 --> 00:07:01,960 and she wrote the prologue. And I remember reading this and she was describing a soup 76 00:07:01,960 --> 00:07:08,000 or yeah, I think it was a soup with some dumplings inside or something. And it really reproduced 77 00:07:08,000 --> 00:07:13,880 the experience of eating this, you know, like getting into the textures, the flavors, how 78 00:07:13,880 --> 00:07:19,520 they combine and the experience of eating it. That I had like this almost, you know, 79 00:07:19,520 --> 00:07:24,520 like sensory memory of having that dish, even though I never had it. And I was like, who 80 00:07:24,520 --> 00:07:29,360 is this? And of course I thought it was a man because MFK Fisher, you know, like you 81 00:07:29,360 --> 00:07:36,600 read that and it's who is this? And then I discovered, yeah, it was a woman, an American. 82 00:07:36,600 --> 00:07:42,200 And for me, it's the best writing I read. I have her whole work and it's something I 83 00:07:42,200 --> 00:07:50,000 get often to get a read and to see like technically how she builds the stories because also telling 84 00:07:50,000 --> 00:07:55,520 a dish like the way of eating it, you can also add the same narrative structure that 85 00:07:55,520 --> 00:08:02,280 you would add to a micro tale or something. And yeah, I understand that after I recommended 86 00:08:02,280 --> 00:08:05,320 you, you also read some books of her or got some book of her. 87 00:08:05,320 --> 00:08:11,320 Yeah, I have a couple of them and it's true what you're saying. Like this multisensorial 88 00:08:11,320 --> 00:08:18,240 way of approaching writing about food is so telling of her writing. Like she's such a 89 00:08:18,240 --> 00:08:24,400 pro in doing that. And she has inspired so many other writers in that, like, I don't 90 00:08:24,400 --> 00:08:31,880 know if it's a genre on its own. And it's truly like, it's very endearing, no? Like 91 00:08:31,880 --> 00:08:37,280 it's like very touching, as you were mentioning that she was describing a plate and then you 92 00:08:37,280 --> 00:08:45,560 felt all the aromas. And that's not easy to convey, I think, with literature. When you 93 00:08:45,560 --> 00:08:52,080 play with the senses, you have to be really good at it. And she's really good. Another 94 00:08:52,080 --> 00:09:00,000 writer that I really recommend that goes into that direction, she's alive, she's more contemporary 95 00:09:00,000 --> 00:09:05,920 and her name is Tamara Adler. She has this book, An Everlasting Meal. I found her, I 96 00:09:05,920 --> 00:09:12,640 think, after M.F.K. Fisher. That was your recommendation. And she has truly also changed 97 00:09:12,640 --> 00:09:18,320 my way of like approaching food in general. It's like these meditations about food more 98 00:09:18,320 --> 00:09:25,520 than just like describing a dish. They really go deep into like what that means. And it's 99 00:09:25,520 --> 00:09:30,160 like a philosophy in itself. I don't know, it's really inspiring because I also have 100 00:09:30,160 --> 00:09:38,640 a blog or I try to keep it up. I haven't written in a while. It's linked to my publishing house 101 00:09:38,640 --> 00:09:43,880 that is called Concordia Press, in which I also talk a lot about plants. So I'm very 102 00:09:43,880 --> 00:09:50,880 interested in this intersection between plants and cooking, cooking with plants and or fermenting 103 00:09:50,880 --> 00:09:56,760 or experimenting in general, but like more dealing with edible plants. So I also try 104 00:09:56,760 --> 00:10:03,040 to keep my pen sharp and write, but I've been working a lot. So it's a little bit dormant 105 00:10:03,040 --> 00:10:08,920 at the moment. It's not so active. But yeah, just going back to Tamara, she has been so 106 00:10:08,920 --> 00:10:14,440 inspiring and also M.F.K. Fisher just talking about the writing perspective, like models 107 00:10:14,440 --> 00:10:20,640 of people who I look up to, like I want to write like them because it's not easy. You 108 00:10:20,640 --> 00:10:25,240 have to practice a lot and eat a lot and cook a lot and be open to food. 109 00:10:25,240 --> 00:10:31,120 Yeah. Well, what I think I have like an unfair advantage is of not only being a chef, but 110 00:10:31,120 --> 00:10:38,800 I also being part of tasting panels where they train you to identify aromas and also 111 00:10:38,800 --> 00:10:44,520 a lot of tastings. You see these people that when I'm not a pro, but I've seen this, I 112 00:10:44,520 --> 00:10:52,120 get someone tasting a wine and using 20 descriptors to and you go like, yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah, 113 00:10:52,120 --> 00:10:58,560 tobacco, leather, exactly. Blackberry. Joghurt, milk. You know what, one of the experiments 114 00:10:58,560 --> 00:11:07,600 they do when you're getting trained is they give you like a small thing to smell. And 115 00:11:07,600 --> 00:11:12,760 it's usually something really familiar. You know, I know what this is, but the words won't 116 00:11:12,760 --> 00:11:16,440 come out and it's because you're just not trained. And then it's something really obvious 117 00:11:16,440 --> 00:11:23,080 like cinnamon. I knew it, you know, like this happens all the time. But as a chef, you get 118 00:11:23,080 --> 00:11:27,760 trained to that tasting, you know, a sauce and you have to know what is missing because 119 00:11:27,760 --> 00:11:32,560 you already know the recipe. And then you saw the cardamom is missing or this kind of 120 00:11:32,560 --> 00:11:33,560 thing. 121 00:11:33,560 --> 00:11:37,880 It's good. I mean, I'm super jealous because yes, you get to train a lot and like really 122 00:11:37,880 --> 00:11:42,760 build up your vocabulary. I remember when I got COVID the first time that I lost my 123 00:11:42,760 --> 00:11:48,280 sense of smell, I found myself reading and researching about smell, which is one of the 124 00:11:48,280 --> 00:11:54,520 senses that people tend to ignore the most. And people tend to give more attention to, 125 00:11:54,520 --> 00:12:00,720 I don't know, the other senses. And with this pandemic, then there was kind of like a highlight 126 00:12:00,720 --> 00:12:06,160 on smelling, but that for chefs, I think it's like something so important because they're 127 00:12:06,160 --> 00:12:12,080 all the time like reliant so much on smelling. And in my experience, because I have a lot 128 00:12:12,080 --> 00:12:18,080 of ferments or I tend to have a lot of ferments at home, I also was like really lacking on 129 00:12:18,080 --> 00:12:22,680 like, or I was missing a lot like the fact that I could smell and really tell like, oh, 130 00:12:22,680 --> 00:12:28,280 I have to feed my scoby or I have to do this and this because I couldn't like smell things. 131 00:12:28,280 --> 00:12:35,720 But yeah, I am digressing. I was, I just wanted to say that like for regular folks that do 132 00:12:35,720 --> 00:12:41,520 not work in the kitchen or are exposed to like dealing with vocabulary of smelling, 133 00:12:41,520 --> 00:12:46,360 it's really hard. Like it's really, it's really, that's why I'm jealous of you that. 134 00:12:46,360 --> 00:12:51,720 There are like this, like what I just said, that you have this micro bottles with just 135 00:12:51,720 --> 00:12:58,000 an aroma. There are this set to train wine taste through beginners. So you get a set 136 00:12:58,000 --> 00:13:03,000 of, I don't know, 350 aromas. And it's like a game, you know, you smell it and you have 137 00:13:03,000 --> 00:13:08,800 to, and after you start doing that, you realize you're starting to use a part of your brain 138 00:13:08,800 --> 00:13:13,920 you weren't using, like associating aromas with words. And that's quite interesting. 139 00:13:13,920 --> 00:13:19,960 And then also adding of course, a layer of texture with, you know, describing how the 140 00:13:19,960 --> 00:13:26,120 texture was and, and of course the whole context and the place. But I was talking just about 141 00:13:26,120 --> 00:13:32,840 food, food, but when you go to the broader of what is food, not only the, the, the sensory 142 00:13:32,840 --> 00:13:38,400 experience of course, Anthony Bourdain. And I'm pretty sure that he has had an influence 143 00:13:38,400 --> 00:13:43,700 on my writing for sure. And the podcast, this podcast for sure, like the kind of contents 144 00:13:43,700 --> 00:13:50,760 we deliver. He was doing that in 99, you know, like, and then he's still extremely influential. 145 00:13:50,760 --> 00:13:55,360 So you had another book, you just sent me like a list of recommendations, more home 146 00:13:55,360 --> 00:13:59,720 cooking by Laura, Laurie Colwin. What can you tell us about that one? 147 00:13:59,720 --> 00:14:05,880 Yeah, Laurie Colwin, I have it around here and more home cooking. This is a really interesting 148 00:14:05,880 --> 00:14:11,760 book in a way that it's very similar to what we were talking about storytelling and so 149 00:14:11,760 --> 00:14:21,800 on. But it has a format that I really enjoyed a lot, like a hybrid of a writing book and 150 00:14:21,800 --> 00:14:28,080 a cookbook, like an essay book and a cookbook because she divides this, like it's little 151 00:14:28,080 --> 00:14:33,800 fragments of stories and each fragment ends up with a recipe. 152 00:14:33,800 --> 00:14:42,400 Okay. So it's linking perhaps a memory or perhaps an anecdote or anything that is really 153 00:14:42,400 --> 00:14:48,880 personal to her. And then at the end she gives you a recipe that is linked to that memory. 154 00:14:48,880 --> 00:14:55,840 So for me, this is like, I want to do this. And especially because I think in Spanish, 155 00:14:55,840 --> 00:15:01,840 I haven't found a writer that has something similar and I've been dealing a lot with like 156 00:15:01,840 --> 00:15:08,680 family recipes. So it's one format that I am also like looking a lot into to see if 157 00:15:08,680 --> 00:15:14,960 I do a format, something similar for a project, which is like I said, like memories and then 158 00:15:14,960 --> 00:15:21,480 recipes and the familiarity in this connection, which I'm, I think it's lovely. 159 00:15:21,480 --> 00:15:27,280 I think you would like, you know, Mugaritz, the restaurant, like one of their first books 160 00:15:27,280 --> 00:15:32,860 and they say themselves, and a lot of people say that, that it's kind of like when a band 161 00:15:32,860 --> 00:15:38,840 has their first album and all the cult fans, they say the first album is the best, you 162 00:15:38,840 --> 00:15:45,240 know, and then they became something else. That kind of happens with that book of Mugaritz 163 00:15:45,240 --> 00:15:51,840 called Chlorophyllia. And so they had like a complete different style of cooking back 164 00:15:51,840 --> 00:15:59,880 then, but every single recipe represents a herb and most of them are wild herbs. And 165 00:15:59,880 --> 00:16:06,600 then you have the recipe, which is like a Michelin star level technical recipe. But 166 00:16:06,600 --> 00:16:12,280 then there is like, I don't know how to describe it. I would describe it like as a free writing 167 00:16:12,280 --> 00:16:18,800 from this outflowers that are not chefs, but these are like, you know, fictitious anecdotes 168 00:16:18,800 --> 00:16:27,840 or almost poems and prose or just like a free writing related to the herb, not to the dish. 169 00:16:27,840 --> 00:16:33,600 So you have this story about the herb, the recipe, and that's how the book goes. And 170 00:16:33,600 --> 00:16:38,600 that back then they were doing like really interesting and creative approach to cookbooks. 171 00:16:38,600 --> 00:16:45,960 I remember another one they did, which is almost not known, but a lot of people, I think 172 00:16:45,960 --> 00:16:53,720 the name is 35 millimeters and they invited chefs from all over the world to make a recipe 173 00:16:53,720 --> 00:17:02,480 related to a scene in a movie. So I was working in a restaurant where the chef got invited. 174 00:17:02,480 --> 00:17:07,080 So I saw the whole invitation letter. They would get like the whole invitation, super 175 00:17:07,080 --> 00:17:12,200 full of, we invite you to participate in this book, blah, blah, blah, blah. Also with a 176 00:17:12,200 --> 00:17:18,920 DVD in the box, all with the branding of the book they were doing with the movie so that 177 00:17:18,920 --> 00:17:23,640 the chef could see the movie and, and you know, cook something to it. And yeah, it's 178 00:17:23,640 --> 00:17:27,720 like, you know, these kinds of books that are more conceptual, not exactly because you're 179 00:17:27,720 --> 00:17:32,960 going to use this to make a recipe, but you're just kind of like, I don't know, like a aesthetic 180 00:17:32,960 --> 00:17:34,520 experience, you know? 181 00:17:34,520 --> 00:17:40,320 I like that very much. It made me think also that it's a different type of book, but also 182 00:17:40,320 --> 00:17:45,040 these ways of dealing with recipes that are a little bit more alternative to having like 183 00:17:45,040 --> 00:17:51,720 a list of ingredients and instructions. And I'm talking about Nigel Slater, that he has 184 00:17:51,720 --> 00:18:01,480 so many, so many books and he's so prolific. He has so much writing published and his recipes 185 00:18:01,480 --> 00:18:07,920 are just long stories. Like when you see the books, it's just like a big paragraph, three 186 00:18:07,920 --> 00:18:14,600 pages and then at the end, a list of ingredients, you know? And I learned a lot more from that 187 00:18:14,600 --> 00:18:19,520 way of cooking, like that way of like, I don't know, presenting cookbooks. I'm not a trained 188 00:18:19,520 --> 00:18:25,280 chef. I wish I was. I'm just very curious about cooking. I cook a lot. I love it. And 189 00:18:25,280 --> 00:18:32,440 I learned a lot from cookbooks like that one, like the ones that present you recipes in 190 00:18:32,440 --> 00:18:38,360 a way that you can experiment yourself. And that's why, for example, Tamara Adler taught 191 00:18:38,360 --> 00:18:43,680 me a lot because it's like, she says things like, oh, when you salt things, you have to 192 00:18:43,680 --> 00:18:48,780 salt with your hands. So you get used to the feeling of like how much salt you need for 193 00:18:48,780 --> 00:18:53,520 things. Like when you say, oh, this is a pinch or this is, I don't know. And those are like 194 00:18:53,520 --> 00:18:57,520 simple things that when you're a trained chef and you have to practice and do a lot of things 195 00:18:57,520 --> 00:19:01,600 that I don't do in my kitchen, it's really helpful, you know, because it gives you a 196 00:19:01,600 --> 00:19:07,120 lot of liberty and also a room for experimentation and not feeling like you have to stick to 197 00:19:07,120 --> 00:19:11,720 one recipe to make it work, you know? That I think a lot of people approach the cookbook 198 00:19:11,720 --> 00:19:17,200 like, oh, if I change this, then it's going to taste bad or it's going to be horrible. 199 00:19:17,200 --> 00:19:21,840 It's not going to work out. No, it's like, you can always do some tweaks and trust yourself 200 00:19:21,840 --> 00:19:26,320 on like what you're smelling, what you're like tasting, especially that, not like you 201 00:19:26,320 --> 00:19:29,720 taste things. People sometimes don't taste things while they cook. 202 00:19:29,720 --> 00:19:35,320 No, of course. And that's also, it's also a way to develop your own palette and have 203 00:19:35,320 --> 00:19:40,920 fun while cooking and understanding what you like and what you don't. It's funny because 204 00:19:40,920 --> 00:19:44,960 professional recipes are exactly the opposite. They're just the list of ingredients and then 205 00:19:44,960 --> 00:19:51,600 the steps super straightforward. Like 80 degrees, half the time, let it rest, done. 206 00:19:51,600 --> 00:19:56,040 You know, just four words and that's, that's the recipe. 207 00:19:56,040 --> 00:20:01,080 That's why I'm not a chef. It's not my style. 208 00:20:01,080 --> 00:20:08,000 So another one I have here from the Les Jus and Mes, Crying in H Mart by Michelle Sauner. 209 00:20:08,000 --> 00:20:15,680 Yes. So this is also a memoir book and it's a very heartbreaking story about how one daughter 210 00:20:15,680 --> 00:20:22,960 connects to her mother when she gets sick and they connect through food. So they're 211 00:20:22,960 --> 00:20:29,360 Korean and the daughter is Korean American. So she starts getting to know the food from 212 00:20:29,360 --> 00:20:36,720 Korea cooking for her mom. Like she connects with her mom after having a very difficult 213 00:20:36,720 --> 00:20:43,120 relationship. And it goes like the story is just like this passage of like connecting 214 00:20:43,120 --> 00:20:50,240 daughter mother and then the mother dies. And like at least she lives with this beautiful 215 00:20:50,240 --> 00:20:55,680 connection to her through cooking. So it's really nice because also a lot of things that 216 00:20:55,680 --> 00:21:01,440 I didn't know about Korean food, especially like what I liked the most also is like how 217 00:21:01,440 --> 00:21:06,520 food can be medicine somehow. The type of food that you eat when you're sick, the type 218 00:21:06,520 --> 00:21:12,520 of food that you eat when you're feeling that way or another is so embedded in what she's 219 00:21:12,520 --> 00:21:18,840 telling. And I really like her. She's also a musician. Actually, she's the lead singer 220 00:21:18,840 --> 00:21:25,720 of Japanese Breakfast, which is an amazing title for a band. So I also like the fact 221 00:21:25,720 --> 00:21:31,920 that she's coming from another place. Like I like hybrid things and like really things 222 00:21:31,920 --> 00:21:37,500 that come together from different angles. So I think that also was something that interests 223 00:21:37,500 --> 00:21:40,600 me a lot about this book. I really recommend. 224 00:21:40,600 --> 00:21:47,760 Like a super classic, I would say when it comes to food literature or narrative that 225 00:21:47,760 --> 00:21:54,480 involved food, I would say is Laura's Kibels. How's her name? For water and chocolate. 226 00:21:54,480 --> 00:22:03,920 Yeah, yeah. But I was in Spanish. I remember the most. Yeah. I remember reading that as 227 00:22:03,920 --> 00:22:10,720 a kid, actually. And then never again. And also the movie, I remember it was a super nice movie. 228 00:22:10,720 --> 00:22:18,960 Yeah. Like like this traditional Mexican cooking in a huge house. And there were a lot of super 229 00:22:18,960 --> 00:22:24,880 interesting recipes and all with this layer of magic realism that you will find in a lot 230 00:22:24,880 --> 00:22:31,640 of Latin American literature. Always, always, always in reality. Latin American reality 231 00:22:31,640 --> 00:22:37,320 as well. Yeah. Another book that is also, I think I didn't mention it in the list, but 232 00:22:37,320 --> 00:22:43,760 it's also really a catch. I think it was published in 2022 is by Rebecca Mae Johnson and it's 233 00:22:43,760 --> 00:22:50,120 called Small Fires. And it's about recipes in the way that like how she presents the 234 00:22:50,120 --> 00:22:57,840 book is that she repeats one recipe for, I don't know how many hundred times. So she's 235 00:22:57,840 --> 00:23:04,080 all the time talking about the same recipe, but also reflecting on what is a recipe and 236 00:23:04,080 --> 00:23:10,400 how does a recipe behave in different contexts with different people. And I'm curious to 237 00:23:10,400 --> 00:23:15,080 pick your brain on it. That's super interesting. Yeah. Because I mean, you as a chef, like 238 00:23:15,080 --> 00:23:19,800 you have to repeat something and you're striving for consistency, you know? Like you have to 239 00:23:19,800 --> 00:23:26,080 make it like as consistent as possible because you're working. No, but yes you do. But in 240 00:23:26,080 --> 00:23:31,080 restaurants, recipes have an evolution. Like if you see in a restaurant, like a recipe 241 00:23:31,080 --> 00:23:35,600 at the beginning of the year and at the end of the year, the recipe has changed because 242 00:23:35,600 --> 00:23:41,120 it has been optimized hopefully for best, you know? But you also get to see them changing 243 00:23:41,120 --> 00:23:46,160 for worse. You know, like, oh no, no, no, we're skipping this step because you know, 244 00:23:46,160 --> 00:23:52,840 like actually you always want to simplify as much as possible. And especially in a restaurant, 245 00:23:52,840 --> 00:23:58,680 you know, you don't want to make steps you could save or do things that don't have anything 246 00:23:58,680 --> 00:24:03,600 unless there is a reason for it or unless you are a very, you know, obsessive chef that 247 00:24:03,600 --> 00:24:11,200 wants like super, you know, like complex technique. But also I remember this chef, he has a super 248 00:24:11,200 --> 00:24:18,260 nice book also, Tetsuya Wakuda. He's like a Japanese Australian. He used to be very 249 00:24:18,260 --> 00:24:24,800 big 15 years ago. I think he still has a restaurant, but he used to be like regarded as one of 250 00:24:24,800 --> 00:24:30,200 the best chefs in the world back then in the 2000s, not anymore. But yeah, he would talk 251 00:24:30,200 --> 00:24:35,300 about serving the same dish for 20 years, the same, same dish. One of his classics, 252 00:24:35,300 --> 00:24:42,040 it was a wild salmon, but that it would evolve through time, that it was not the same dish 253 00:24:42,040 --> 00:24:47,960 anymore, you know, like that's also interesting. I love this idea of this transformation in 254 00:24:47,960 --> 00:24:54,120 recipes. I do a workshop that I've been doing for several years now that is called Fermentation 255 00:24:54,120 --> 00:25:01,400 as a Metaphor. It's inspired by a book of Sandra Elick's cuts that is called The Same 256 00:25:01,400 --> 00:25:07,760 Fermentation as Metaphor. And I do this, like it's fermentation and writing. I chose to 257 00:25:07,760 --> 00:25:14,560 work with the sauerkraut because I think it's one of the easiest ferments more like there, 258 00:25:14,560 --> 00:25:19,600 I don't know, it's a generous ferment because it's really hard to get it wrong. So I usually 259 00:25:19,600 --> 00:25:27,440 do these workshops in very short periods of time in which we work on a sauerkraut together. 260 00:25:27,440 --> 00:25:37,000 I teach the people like the basics of fermenting and then we write a text that is based on 261 00:25:37,000 --> 00:25:44,040 this experience of doing sauerkraut. So I invite people to observe their own sauerkraut 262 00:25:44,040 --> 00:25:49,960 through, I don't know, a period of like two weeks and then smell it and see how it behaves 263 00:25:49,960 --> 00:25:53,880 and the bubbles that arises and all of these things. 264 00:25:53,880 --> 00:25:55,480 Name it, very important. 265 00:25:55,480 --> 00:26:01,280 Yes, name it, give it a name, all of that. So it's funny because the idea with it is 266 00:26:01,280 --> 00:26:07,360 that from the basis of the first exercise that we do, which is making this sauerkraut, 267 00:26:07,360 --> 00:26:12,240 we all have the same ingredients, but each sauerkraut will be different, of course. And 268 00:26:12,240 --> 00:26:17,280 then also the writing will be different even though we're like starting from the base, 269 00:26:17,280 --> 00:26:21,840 the base is the same. So it's the same ingredients and also like the same exercise they all have 270 00:26:21,840 --> 00:26:27,720 to do. So I've been repeating this workshop for a long time now and I used to say to myself 271 00:26:27,720 --> 00:26:33,440 out, maybe I'll get bored because it's like doing the same over and over again. But I 272 00:26:33,440 --> 00:26:38,040 see how it's been transforming and all the stories that come with it is so much fun because 273 00:26:38,040 --> 00:26:45,320 like people are like, their minds are just wonderful. I've had like many, many beautiful 274 00:26:45,320 --> 00:26:49,000 encounters in which like, yeah, it's like you're doing the same and you're using the 275 00:26:49,000 --> 00:26:53,760 same, but it's always so different. And I really like that. I don't know if you have 276 00:26:53,760 --> 00:27:00,000 felt anything like that with recipes or with any type of like, I don't know, special play 277 00:27:00,000 --> 00:27:03,120 that you repeat often. 278 00:27:03,120 --> 00:27:10,880 I can recall like having a special relationship. No, actually a super common question that 279 00:27:10,880 --> 00:27:17,480 anybody who is a chef gets asked all the time. And at least I don't have an answer. What 280 00:27:17,480 --> 00:27:23,600 is your specialty? And I'm like, well, I don't have anything. I just do things, you know, 281 00:27:23,600 --> 00:27:29,040 like most of the time if I'm cooking at home, most of the time I'm freestyling. It's very 282 00:27:29,040 --> 00:27:33,040 rarely I will be following a recipe because I just want to have fun, you know, like because 283 00:27:33,040 --> 00:27:39,560 I have the technical knowledge. Otherwise I would be worried from doing something wrong. 284 00:27:39,560 --> 00:27:44,720 You mentioned Sandor Katz. I met him. I went, I went having pinches and beers with him here 285 00:27:44,720 --> 00:27:55,480 in San Sebastian. Amazing guy. He's incredible. And I was at a workshop with him. He was doing 286 00:27:55,480 --> 00:28:01,920 sauerkraut as well. And I really, really recommend his book, The Art of Fermentation. Of course, 287 00:28:01,920 --> 00:28:07,800 a Bible. It's an amazing book. And it's funny because my friends that are really fermentation 288 00:28:07,800 --> 00:28:13,160 freaks like Diego Prado, when we were talking about that book, of course he likes a book, 289 00:28:13,160 --> 00:28:19,920 but he's like, yeah, it's super nice, but it's a novel. He's more like technical books, 290 00:28:19,920 --> 00:28:28,200 you know, like this was like too narrative. But yeah, it's nice to read a novel on fermentation 291 00:28:28,200 --> 00:28:33,840 and the different approaches and techniques and, and the stories behind it. Well, of course 292 00:28:33,840 --> 00:28:39,960 you see my tendency. So I'm more into storytelling. So I see that book, The Art of Fermentation, 293 00:28:39,960 --> 00:28:44,840 and it's like, wow, this is so cool because it's like, he's telling you a whole story 294 00:28:44,840 --> 00:28:50,240 about where he learned to do this or that. And then in the middle you have the technique, 295 00:28:50,240 --> 00:28:57,200 no? So that's, I really admire him a lot. If he's been a huge reference for me, especially 296 00:28:57,200 --> 00:29:03,000 because he blends these topics that we're talking about, like this storytelling is super 297 00:29:03,000 --> 00:29:08,160 important to him, but he's also very, like when you're dealing with that amount of like, 298 00:29:08,160 --> 00:29:13,720 I don't know, fermentation knowledge, you do have to get technical. You cannot improvise 299 00:29:13,720 --> 00:29:18,960 that much at some point. Yeah. It's a lot of information in that book for sure. A lot, 300 00:29:18,960 --> 00:29:26,720 a lot. So cool that you met him. Yeah. The other book that I really liked, I don't know 301 00:29:26,720 --> 00:29:32,720 if you know this one, The Third Plate by Dan Barber. Yes, I have it here. Because that's 302 00:29:32,720 --> 00:29:40,000 a chef and also storytelling and it talks a lot about food systems and also like kind 303 00:29:40,000 --> 00:29:46,360 of like a journalist approach about specific chefs and producers and the story and everything. 304 00:29:46,360 --> 00:29:50,800 And yeah, I think it's, it's quite cool. It's a super good read for sure. Yeah. I think 305 00:29:50,800 --> 00:29:59,240 it has also this political view of food and he's working from his, so his baseline is 306 00:29:59,240 --> 00:30:05,080 restaurants, no? And it gets really political. I really liked that. It made me think on one 307 00:30:05,080 --> 00:30:11,920 of the books that I send you by Alice Waters, Coming to My Senses. And it's this memoir 308 00:30:11,920 --> 00:30:18,040 about like her developing Japanese and all of the political struggles as well in between 309 00:30:18,040 --> 00:30:24,680 and why she decided to go to, to choose this path. Because when she started, there was 310 00:30:24,680 --> 00:30:31,160 not like this concept of farm to table or not as she started developing, at least that 311 00:30:31,160 --> 00:30:36,720 I know of. That's something I could read because I, I'm a big fan of Alice Waters and she's 312 00:30:36,720 --> 00:30:42,660 hugely influential in all the restaurant movement, especially in the West coast and the United 313 00:30:42,660 --> 00:30:47,800 States. But I've never read one of her books. I've read articles, opinions, quotes, these 314 00:30:47,800 --> 00:30:53,200 kinds of things, you know, recipes, but never one of her books. So this might be something 315 00:30:53,200 --> 00:30:58,280 I could get. You know, I'm not reading from a few years on. I've been just listening to 316 00:30:58,280 --> 00:31:04,280 audiobooks because it's my way of consuming books. Like I get the audiobooks and I go 317 00:31:04,280 --> 00:31:09,360 for a walk, you know, it's better than being laying on the couch. So I do two things at 318 00:31:09,360 --> 00:31:17,040 a time. And it's a different way to consume the same content. And yeah, I'm thinking especially 319 00:31:17,040 --> 00:31:22,640 with long books, I do that. Yeah. Because I rather having walks, uh, some, some, you 320 00:31:22,640 --> 00:31:26,520 know, like a long novel can last like 30 hours of audiobook. 321 00:31:26,520 --> 00:31:32,320 It's also very useful now because we're on the go a lot. So yeah, it's true that with 322 00:31:32,320 --> 00:31:38,640 books you have to have a pause from all these movements in which we're involved to an everyday 323 00:31:38,640 --> 00:31:44,800 basis. And it made me think like, uh, I was curious because, um, I really like podcasts 324 00:31:44,800 --> 00:31:50,240 about food in general. So I appreciate the work you're doing because it's really fun. 325 00:31:50,240 --> 00:31:55,960 Also like it's really meditative for me when people actually explain recipes, it's really 326 00:31:55,960 --> 00:32:00,520 interesting. I don't know. It's like, uh, I've been listening to a few podcasts that 327 00:32:00,520 --> 00:32:05,600 they just like talk about recipes and it's funny because when people are linking to the 328 00:32:05,600 --> 00:32:09,800 storytelling, they're telling you about the food is really soothing for me. 329 00:32:09,800 --> 00:32:15,960 Yeah, I guess it's like, I once heard from a TV chef, he was saying that some study proved 330 00:32:15,960 --> 00:32:23,720 that 99% of the people that watch TV shows don't cook the recipes. You know, like they 331 00:32:23,720 --> 00:32:32,880 just enjoy watching the cooking. It's like a way of entertaining in itself. 332 00:32:32,880 --> 00:32:37,440 That's it for this week's episode of potluck food talks. If you like what we're doing, 333 00:32:37,440 --> 00:32:41,880 make sure to subscribe to the podcast so you never miss an episode. You can also find us 334 00:32:41,880 --> 00:33:08,760 on Instagram and Tik Tok as potluck food talks. The show airs every Monday.