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Hi everyone, welcome to potluck food talks. I'm here with my man Phil and today we're

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going to talk about restaurant guides.

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Restaurant guides, the bane of so many chefs existence.

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Yeah, it's funny because there is like this myth you will see in movies like Ratatouille

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that fancy restaurants are always expecting for the inspector to come and rate them and

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perhaps in some other culinary movies. But I almost never were in places that had like

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that feeling. What about you?

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I've actually been a few times in restaurants. It really depends where you are. Like for

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example when I was working in London, there were a handful of very, very well known restaurant

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critics and people were on the lookout for them. I mean not actively, but if they would

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come in, there would be like this very stereotypical kind of see you as sort of like, oh, this

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person is here. And suddenly everybody was on high alert.

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Yeah, I had that experience even in places where we worked together at some point. Yeah,

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this is the Michelin inspector, even though he's supposed to be anonymous, but for some

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reason you would get that info and you know that the table had to be very, very perfect.

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There's also the other side to where people think it's a Michelin inspector. I've had

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that a few times where it's sort of like, I think table so and so is Michelin. And then

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everybody's like, oh no, the chef is freaking out. It's like, what the fuck are you doing?

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And then it turns out that it's just normal people. There was a funny situation one time

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in London as a very famous food blogger who has like, who's very well known in the restaurant

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scene that he's an Asian guy. And so one time in a restaurant, we were kind of looking outside

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and one of the chefs was sort of like, oh, I think that's such and such. And the chef

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was like, oh, really? Yeah, yeah. Small restaurant, you know. And then at some point, like one

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of the waiters went there and came back and was like, that's not it's not him. It's just

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a random guy. And the head chef was sort of like, you're such a fucking racist. Just because

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that guy's Asian, you think it's this food blogger. No, I had a similar situation. I

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was in this restaurant and there was a VIP coming like the blah, blah, blah from blah,

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blah, blah. So super important person. So the waiter was went direct to him, talked

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to him all the time. He was serving him wines, recommending, talking, being funny, telling

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jokes, blah, blah, blah. And then the owner of the restaurant comes and asks, like, how

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did you treat the this guy as super nice looking? He's very happy. And the owner goes like,

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that's not him. It's the table next to the guy comes and they ask me like, how was everything?

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Like, hmm, the food was a little bit short, but okay. You know, and the other guy, of

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course, was like, wow. He's like, wow, this is the best restaurant ever. That's really

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funny. Hey, that's just come that comes to show you, you know, it's like that that's

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the wrong approach. You have to like the right approach when a tester comes in, there's everybody

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to say, we will do protocol, just everything as we always do, you know, and have the confidence

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and that that is, you know, that you're doing everything that you can. It's what a shitty

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situation to be passing full restaurant ideally passing over one table, just that a blood

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sommelier comes in one way and another way to and then chef comes out and all the other

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tables are sitting there like, what the fuck is going on? This is a circus. You know? Yeah.

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I remember also in a restaurant, we had like this Tom Yum Goong soup, like in a very enhanced

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way, I would say, you know, with a how do you call this when you make a double broth,

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a broth with the with where you add roasted bones to a fond blanc. Well, like a super

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strong broth for for like for like the Tom Yum Goong shop. So it was like a really rich

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soup. It was already a super soup. It was already very, very rich. And then the chef

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you there was this three mission in Star Chef coming and the chef went nuts and he started

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like reducing and almost sending him a demi glass, you know, it was a and exactly and

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driving everyone crazy for one person, you know, like and not even an inspector. Just

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a guy with three mission in stars, you know? Yeah, it's weird how the focus is on the wrong

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thing, you know, where, you know, it's this whole like ego boasting, you know, it's like

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making dishes so that you live out your creativity. And while that's like an important aspect

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of cooking, your focus should be on your guests, you know, and not just on one guest, but like

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on all the guests. Right. I feel like that's that's where a lot of Michelin star restaurants,

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especially fall really short. Because, sure, you're not supposed to get swayed by all sorts

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of criticism, like I mean, you know, like, for example, a random Yelp review, you know,

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but you should listen to it. And if you have, you know, and you should strive for everybody

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being satisfied, not for yourself to be satisfied with yourself that also Yeah, but you know,

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your guests should be the number one priority. But also like going back and we're going kind

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of off topic if we're talking about restaurant guides, but I have this other story where

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it was like this super top restaurant and I was like, you know, like an apprentice and

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at some point they say, okay, it's confirmed. Table six is Alain Ducasse. And that day I

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was the chef de pate. It was his day off. So I was in charge of the station. So the

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chef chef, the executive chef calls me to his office, you know, and everything is full

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of books and the guides there and he's like, do not fuck up. Basically. You get the opportunity

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to do this here. And there aren't any restaurants in the world where you can do this at this

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level. So you better not fuck up. And I go back to my station and everything when I remember

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there was a moment at service where I think I threatened another apprentice for not giving

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me odd dishes or something. And I went like really violent and somebody told me to calm

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the fuck down. And at the end we delivered everything nice. I remember the head chef

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saying like, oh fuck, Ducasse, Ducasse's wife is vegetarian. We just send them the blah,

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blah, blah broth, which is not. There was some mistake in that regard. And at the end

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everybody was cleaning and then there was this random beauty guy working around. And

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suddenly I realized it was Ducasse. And nobody realized he was inside the kitchen after everybody

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was so crazy. And he just left. And that was it. That was a funny story.

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Yeah. I mean, I've had so many situations like that too. It's like, just, you know,

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I mean, Ducasse is a, you know, is a hero, you know, it's like, if you are, if we talk

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about celebrity chefs, you know, like Ducasse for me is like on the top because he's like

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a cool guy. Maybe top one, I would say. Like he's an OG

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and he's been an innovator since the eighties. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Totally. He's got, he's

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like, he's been developing further and further, you know, like he's stayed with the times.

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He's always been influential still today. And he's like a nice guy. Yeah. You know,

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he's super supportive of other chefs. You know, he goes out to eat all the time in,

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especially in Paris, you know, like goes to like small restaurants run by young up and

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like young guns up and coming. And yeah, he's a, he's an OG.

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And he is by the way, one of the most Michelin awarded chefs in the world. I think he's number

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four or five. I don't know, but he has like a lot of Michelin stars.

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He has an empire. So what are your thoughts on the Michelin

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guide? Do you think it's important? Do you think it's bullshit? Half, half, half, half.

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Yeah. So I, I mean, when I started cooking, probably very similar to you. I wanted to

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go into Michelin straight away and I did. Right. Because I mean, that was like over

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15 years ago. So at that time still Michelin was a standard of this is good. Right. This

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is the top. It's not true today anymore. I think Michelin for me is like, like I don't

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hate Michelin, but Michelin is not like for me the thing to strive for. For me, Michelin

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encapsules a certain direction of cooking. Right. I wouldn't say a certain style because

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that would be too specific, but a certain direction. Michelin, what I like about Michelin

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is that even though restaurants of many different styles have Michelin stars, I don't even want

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to go into like the Hawker stalls or stuff because that's a whole nother thing. But like

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in Europe, you know, in sort of like, that sort of cooking, you can know, you know, if

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you go to a Michelin star restaurant, you know, you're going to a certain direction.

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It's going to be tasting menu, you know, there's certain parameters. And I like that about

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that compared to other food guides where I feel like sometimes things get compared that

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are just uncomparable. Yeah, I completely agree. And what I like now is that it's just,

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you know, Michelin is just another aspect of the whole picture. It's just another piece

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to the puzzle. There are restaurants that are by choice, way more casual, a la carte

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ordering, you know, more relaxed atmosphere, et cetera, et cetera. But with the same quality

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and the same dedication to execution. And it's really opened up the gastronomic world

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so that you can say, okay, if I want a Michelin star experience, I go to a Michelin star restaurant,

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but I can have a meal that's just as good, different setting, different style in a different

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restaurant doesn't have a Michelin star. And yeah, so I don't, I don't particularly love

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Michelin. I like Michelin, but it's not like the thing, right? For me.

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Yeah. I have a similar opinion, like same as you. When I started as an apprentice, my

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goal was to go to a one star, then a two star, and then a three star restaurant in that order.

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And so I did. I learned a lot. I was really interested. And I think that's perfectly fine

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and knowing who these chefs were and what they work are and knowing their books and

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their work. And I think it's a good reference. I think if you're at culinary school, super

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interesting to see the work of these people because they apply techniques in ways that

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you probably haven't thought of. But then, then I realized that going to a Michelin star

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restaurant is like going to the theater or going to an opera or something like that.

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It's a special occasion. I think people that go to Michelin stars four times a week because

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they're rich are just idiots. You know, like why would you do that? Doesn't make sense

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to me in that case.

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Yeah.

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I mean, I have never been in a three-mission star place eating. I've been there working

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and I probably wouldn't go there unless they invite me because I prefer going to one star

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restaurants for the same price instead of a three star restaurant. I think the difference

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is not that huge. I think a one star restaurant delivers excellent food. And a lot of people

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don't know that a one star restaurant is already like a lifetime achievement. Something very,

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very hard to get. It's something you don't get by chance or because you know someone.

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It's not like that. So in that regard, I think like the standards are, the parameters are

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clearly, you know, like people who knows, knows. I've been in places where I predicted

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we're going to get a star and they got it, or I didn't knew they had a star and they

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had it, or I thought this could have two and they got the second right away because I know

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the parameters and I know what to expect because I've been around this world and reading and

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visiting these places for many years. Then also when I travel for me, it's I usually,

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and especially if it's when I was traveling in Asia, like I don't know anything about

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the restaurants seen in Kuala Lumpur, you know. And for me, it's more reliable to look

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like for the non-star places in the Michelin guide, the cheap eats that they also have

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like this section. And I know these places have like also some parameters, perhaps is

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it authenticity, you know, like there was like a Vietnamese place that wasn't the guide,

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not not star place, but in the guide. And I know it's going to be like a good traditional

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Vietnamese place and it was, you know, like in that case, I think it delivers trust and

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that's what I like about it. What I don't like about it is, I don't know, maybe people

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getting too obsessed about it or showing too much off that they work in Michelin star places

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or these kinds of things. Like I'm like, you know, like, yeah, yeah, I feel like especially,

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well, no, I actually don't want to say that. I was just going to say like Americans get

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really obsessed with it, you know, and I'm really happy that I completely agree. I think

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you put it very well. I completely agree with you. And I'm very happy that we're moving

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away from this mania, you know, also like not just like in the perception of customers

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and guests going to restaurant, but like from chef's point of view, I'm so happy that there's

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so much more spectrum, you know, I have so many friends that I've come up through my

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career with that have been in Michelin star restaurants, you know, for like the vast majority

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of their career, and then at some point, decide to step away from that and pursue a different

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style of cooking, which is not based on so and so many Ames Bouche and tweezers and all

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those like, I mean, these are cliches. You definitely don't have to have that for cooking

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in Michelin star, but you know, it doesn't make it any like it doesn't make it less good,

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you know, it's just like a different style. I'm super happy that this is the case now.

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Yeah, also something that a lot of people don't know, because even Xander, the producer

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of the show, he, he once asked me, why aren't there any Michelin star restaurant here in

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Mexico, like there are super good restaurants. And I'm like, because there is not a guide

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in Mexico, you know, like the guy at the beginning was only in France, and the places where the

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guide exists, is a place that get a star. And you just mentioned United States, but United

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States had not a Michelin guide until 2005. If I'm not wrong, before that, existed. So

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all these places like Daniel Boulou and John George and Thomas Keller didn't have a star

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because the you would have like the what's the name of the American guide? I don't remember

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there's like a they also have stars, but it's another guide, like it used to be like the

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the most like the strongest guide and America until Michelin came came in. Now it's gone.

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You know, it's like in Carter. Sucks man. So recently there were new additions. Brazil

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is less than 10 years for sure. Yeah, I think Argentina was just last year. They opened a

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guide in Argentina. I'm not sure about Chile. I could expect if Dubai Dubai was last year.

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Exactly. You know, like they're Asia. Asia was after the 2010s. Before that, there was

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no guide in Asia. Yeah, because it's not it's not easy. It's a huge undertaking not to guide

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as I like to make a guide for, you know, a country. It's, it's nuts, because I mean,

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to to rate the restaurant, several people have to go there several times a year, and

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rate it and like get the average and like they did it, they take it very seriously.

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You know, I mean, you would think they take it very seriously. There's a book I read many

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years ago, it's called the French title is something like the inspector's seats to the

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table. And and it's about like a mission and inspectors telling everything he never mentions

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the guide kind of like how we speak about restaurants that we never mentioned the restaurants.

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But everybody knows. So this guy was an inspector and he would say things like there were on

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only five inspectors in France at the moment, or he will tell the stories how how he would

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go to restaurants and probably he wouldn't be the person you were expecting. Maybe not

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that guy that everybody's attending, but the other one that is eating with his kid and

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tasting the kids menu and and you know, there's also like this romantic thing about Michelin

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guy that an inspector would find a restaurant and a hidden forest in a mountain that nobody

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knew of and it was like a culinary palace full of chef in their white uniforms and and

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I mean, these kind of things. For me, Walters places something like that, you know, like,

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it's a storage room with a with a top sushi place, you know, in the middle of nowhere,

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like, it's pretty cool. So like in that regard. Yeah, for sure. What about 50 best? Before

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we move on to 50 best, I want to ask you a question. While on the topic of Michelin,

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what is your opinion on the green star? To be honest, I don't know, like the parameters

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of it. I know places that I have gotten the star. I know places that have gotten the star

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in our bullshit, because I know people that work inside and tell me like this, this is

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all a lie. We're not sustainable at all. We're like eco criminals. It just, you know, saving

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our asses. And that's my opinion on it. Yeah. The reason I'm asking is because I have the

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same opinion while I'm not super hating on Michelin and of itself. I think the green

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stars bullshit, because from what you hear, the it's just greenwashing, you know, like

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it they don't like the idea is good. But the execution seems to be almost non existent.

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I don't know if you saw the rant that Christian Puglisi posted on Instagram at one point.

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No, on the topic. No, no idea. Yeah, it's worth watching and big props to Christian

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Puglisi for always keeping it real. I'm going to visit, you know, I'm going just for four

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days to Copenhagen and I booked two of his places because they're, you know, they're

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on the way and the schedule. And I think this probably has one of the best pizzas in the

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world. You know, like I also want to write a review about it. Yeah, Chris, Christian

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Puglisi, one of the coolest chefs in my opinion, especially if you're interested in sustainability

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and organic restaurants and that sort of stuff. And he posted a video after he got the green

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star and he was telling the story of sort of like how it happened. And he was like,

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yeah, you know, I was like somewhere else. And then I got a call sort of like, hey, congratulations,

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you got the green star. And I was like, okay, cool. And he said he was like, okay, so then

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I called my, the head chef of Relay, which was one of his main restaurants at the time,

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so closed. And he was like, Hey, so what was going on there? Did somebody come by and look

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at what you guys were doing? And his head chef was like, no, somebody just called us,

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asked us a couple of questions. I answered them and they were like, okay, and that's

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it. And they got a star, the green star. The thing is that, you know, this is probably

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what happens with most places like, you know, like Aso Mendy and that sort of stuff, you

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know, pseudo nature restaurants. And it's just so lazy. And it's like, probably most

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people, they won't question it. It'd be like, Hey, great. We've got the green star, you

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know, amazing. Of course, of course, of course. Yeah, I completely agree. But it's, you know,

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it's like ideas good. Yeah, like, restaurants are going to produce a lot of waste, you know,

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like, especially restaurants at that level. And then it's like a problem because the way

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of dealing with waste is unglamorous, you know, and these restaurants are glamorous.

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So there is this contradiction, which is a problem. And there goes a lot of chef ego

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in the way. So like, I don't know what the solution is. Well, the solution is to be honest

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about it, I think, and to acknowledge the problems that there are. And to be very open

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and transparent and open for changes. Nobody's expecting it to be perfect. But the I think

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the approach can't be that tight, all the ugly shit and just presented with the good

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stuff. Especially when you talk about sustainability, it's kind of like, well, what are the problems

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we need to approach? This, this, this, this, what can we do? And it's a process, right?

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But not just kind of like, sweeping it under the carpet and being like, all right, everything's

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fine. Because there are things like, I don't know, reusing some containers or this kind

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of thing that are unglamorous. They're not pretty. They want to look pretty in the picture

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that you want to make of your fancy restaurant, you know? Yeah. Just to say a silly example.

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Yeah, totally. Totally. So now 50 best. No, 50 best. Oh, no, man. I, I don't know. I

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have not looked at a 50 best list in a while because I, in the beginning, I thought it

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was all right. Same. And after a while I was like, what is going on here? And after getting

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a little bit of a glimpse behind the scenery, as you move from, you know, world famous restaurant

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to world famous restaurant, you meet people and blah, and this and that, you just realize

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how corrupt it is and how tied to tourism boards in countries and, and also on a more

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superficial level, the way to compare restaurants was just like, man, what? For me, Michelin

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is like the Oscars and 50 best is like the Rolling Stones 500 best list, which is completely,

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completely random. You know, like, yeah, the Rolling Stones and Britney Spears and the

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same list, you know, like something like that. I remember like just one of the last times

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I looked at the list, I have no idea who's number one at the moment. I do not care. I

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couldn't care less. For me, it's just like a big wank fest of people jerking each other

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off of being, uh, who's number one, this, that, that. And like, I remember Rio again,

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being like on, you know, spots, I don't know, 30 something. And then I remember like restaurants

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coming in that were just like, I was like, how can you, how is this comparable? Exactly.

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That's the problem. Like how can you compare Rio Jean with, I don't know, like a super

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nice grill place, you know, in Columbia. And it's like, I'm sure that grill place is amazing,

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but it's just not comparable. You know, like, you know what I feel about 50 best is that

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it's almost comparable to like Instagram chefs. I feel like the more Instagrammable you are

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and the more marketable you are, the higher you are on the list. And I, yeah, I completely

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agree actually on that one. That's also something interesting because, uh, what I mentioned

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earlier, like in Michelin, this cheap eats section they have, all the restaurants have

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like super nice pictures. Maybe then you go there and the restaurant, especially in Asia

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can be like a kind of trashy place compared to the pictures you saw earlier, but the pictures

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are all perfect. So I can imagine they operate like Airbnb that sends you the photographer

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to the place to make the nice pictures. And I could expect that from Michelin, but from

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50 best they expect you to be Instagrammable already. You know, like it's probably one

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of the parameters for sure. Yeah. And it's like kind of like what the whole thing is

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built upon. And you know, with this huge award ceremonies and stuff like that. And it's just

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like, man, I don't know. It's, uh, it's just like, uh, somebody once called it the like

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boys club, you know, the like culinary boys club. It's like, yeah, you see all the same

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faces all the time and everybody's just like, you know, blowing each other off and just

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kind of like smoking cigars. Yeah. And it's like, nah, man, I don't, I don't need having

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having the snowy chats. There's so many great restaurants in that list, you know, so many,

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but I don't know. I, for me, it has very little to do with what for me is interesting in the

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culinary world. Yeah. Yeah. I agree. Like it's for me again, it's a reference. If I see

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a place that isn't on the list, it's like, oh, wow, this place isn't on the list, you

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know, but that's it. Naturally. Some places come in that like, uh, you know, like, um,

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recently kind of open for example, that I'll be happy about and that I'm like, oh cool.

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They deserve recognition. You know, like for example, uh, Cezanne, you know, in Tokyo,

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when it went in, you know, it's like a place that super amazing and you're like, okay,

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well, they have to get recognition, you know, but I feel like if you take like for me, 50

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best lists, if you take it as a, like, if you look at the 50 best list to see where

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you're going to go eat, I feel like only rich pricks do that. You know, like, not that you're

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a prick if you're rich, but it's kind of like, is he the only 50 best taste? Let's see, you

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know, it's like, just go out and eat at a restaurant, man. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. For me,

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that's the kind of people that goes to three mission in star restaurant. It's like, oh,

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uh, you know, like, anyways, what about normal guides? Like, I don't know, trip advisor or

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Google business. Um, I, um, to be honest, I pretty much never, ever, ever look at online

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reviews of a place. Um, not even, not even the right hardly ever. Like I, for me it's

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like automata. Well, if I'm like, you know, like, um, managing bookings and like for instance,

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next week I'm having a trip. So I want to organize the dinners and come ahead with my

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places booked, you know? So, and I'm checking and I, I will probably look for Michelin and

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Google business. Perhaps I will see for some whatever journal is that built a list or has

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some opinion or something. First thing I would do before that for sure is I will ask people.

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I will ask friends. Like I asked you and some other friends for, but so, and then I, because

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it's like, okay, Copenhagen, you know, it's like an important culinary city. So I want

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to have a good grasp of this because the last time I went to Copenhagen, man, I was so mad.

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Like I went there from, I was living in Bolivia and I went there and our host was like, we're

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going to bring you to a very special place. And they brought us to a Latin American place.

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And I was like, Oh, wow. Great. This is exactly what I wanted to do in Copenhagen. Having

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here some fake Latin food. Oh man. That's so upsetting. That's like, I've done it before

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and you just don't think about it because you just let, yeah. Yeah. Like it's very normal.

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You know, I found out talking about this and it's very normal that, Oh, my friends for

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Japan are coming. Let's take him to the sushi place. So they see how the sushi is different

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is from Japan. It's good hearted, you know, but, but it's just, yeah, yeah, it is. It

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is. Um, so like where I will check like normal guides is for example, like really sort of

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like casual places. Like I'll try like a new pizza place, you know, then I'll read the

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reviews or like a burger place that looks nice, but I haven't heard about it. Then I'll

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read the reviews, you know, so like, for like take-ups. Also, if you're traveling and, and

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you just want to nourish yourself, you know, you're not being picky or fancy. You just

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want to eat for it's like a basic tool, you know, because I will very hardly eat in a

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place that has less than 3.5. I think that's, that's my limit. If it has 3.5 and I'm

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hungry, I will eat it. And if it's less than that by experience, I don't do it because

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if I'm dying, I wouldn't do it because I know it's going to be shit and expensive and you

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know, like for sure.

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Yeah. Yeah, that's true. But like on the other hand, like if I am working in a business and

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if I'm in a restaurant, I take like Google reviews and like Yelp reviews quite seriously,

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you know, it's yeah, it's not like, oh, fuck that shit, you know, like I will read all

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of them and like really, you know, a lot of them you can just push to a side if they're

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bad, you know, but it's like for me, it's very important to, to pay attention to that

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and to with each one kind of think like, all right, is there something valuable here for

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me to consider? So I don't read them on my free time, but I read them for like my work

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for sure.

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But there was this review that went super viral. It was like someone writing super angry

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one star. Like, yeah, we went to this place and we asked for the kids menu and they told

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us they didn't have kids menu. So they brought us like the same meal and our 17 year old

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kid had to eat like a proper.

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Damn. And then the order answered something like when I was 17, I would eat two whole

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ducks, two whole chickens and potatoes and something like that. And that went super viral,

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you know, like that 17 year old baby.

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That's horrible. I said, I really, I saw one the other day where it was kind of like one

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star, super horrible, worst pizza I've ever had. Dough undercooked, topping super disgusting,

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never going again. And the owner was like, we don't sell pizza. Like what is going on?

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Yeah. I've seen some that one star, this is horrible. And what was it? There was a long

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queue and we didn't, they asked us to have reservations so we couldn't get in. And it

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was like, oh yeah. Okay. So it's terrible. I hate that.

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You didn't even eat, you know, but, but I think the ones that make me the most angry

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are the ones where it's like three stars. Everything was great. Food, service, amazing

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restaurant.

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Yeah. There was another one that went super viral. There's nothing to do with reviews,

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but someone asked someone asked on Twitter, is cocaine gluten free? And then add like

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millions of repostings and comments of all kinds. You can Google it. It's like a funny

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tweet.

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So what are the other guides are there? There is Goldmyyo, Lalist and those kinds of things.

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But I think those are minor guides. Nobody cares about, right? Even though Goldmyyo

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is a strong reputation and, and you know, the

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It used to be big, I feel like. And now it's like, nobody really cares anymore.

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Maybe only in France. I would say Germany as well, at least some years ago.

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Not anymore though. Like that's the thing. Like it used to be like, oh, they have so

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and so many stars and so and so many Goldmyyo points. It always was together. And I don't

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hear anybody talking about that shit anymore.

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Well, then there are local guides, all kinds of local guides in each country. Like you

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have Feinschmecker in Germany, you have Webebsol here that, you know, they have their audience.

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They have their place.

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Yeah, for sure. And it's like small, you know, also like magazine columns, you know, like

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I think that's quite nice, you know, when there's like good magazines and there's like

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a small mention of your restaurant sort of like, yeah, you know, I don't know, you know,

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for me, that's kind of like, that's much more like, I would rather have that, you know,

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be mentioned in local magazines having maybe like a Bib Gourmand, you know, I really like

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Bib Gourmand.

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Yeah. Could you explain what Bib Gourmand is?

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So Bib Gourmand is an award that the Michelin guides gives restaurants for really excellent

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quality. That's not necessarily in a Michelin sort of fine dining setting, but it's like

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exceptional food for an affordable price point, I think is the criteria. I'd much rather have

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a Bib Gourmand and Michelin start doing else with you.

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Yeah, me too, probably.