Hi everyone, welcome to potluck food talks. I'm here with my man Phil and today we're
going to talk about restaurant guides.
Restaurant guides, the bane of so many chefs existence.
Yeah, it's funny because there is like this myth you will see in movies like Ratatouille
that fancy restaurants are always expecting for the inspector to come and rate them and
perhaps in some other culinary movies. But I almost never were in places that had like
that feeling. What about you?
I've actually been a few times in restaurants. It really depends where you are. Like for
example when I was working in London, there were a handful of very, very well known restaurant
critics and people were on the lookout for them. I mean not actively, but if they would
come in, there would be like this very stereotypical kind of see you as sort of like, oh, this
person is here. And suddenly everybody was on high alert.
Yeah, I had that experience even in places where we worked together at some point. Yeah,
this is the Michelin inspector, even though he's supposed to be anonymous, but for some
reason you would get that info and you know that the table had to be very, very perfect.
There's also the other side to where people think it's a Michelin inspector. I've had
that a few times where it's sort of like, I think table so and so is Michelin. And then
everybody's like, oh no, the chef is freaking out. It's like, what the fuck are you doing?
And then it turns out that it's just normal people. There was a funny situation one time
in London as a very famous food blogger who has like, who's very well known in the restaurant
scene that he's an Asian guy. And so one time in a restaurant, we were kind of looking outside
and one of the chefs was sort of like, oh, I think that's such and such. And the chef
was like, oh, really? Yeah, yeah. Small restaurant, you know. And then at some point, like one
of the waiters went there and came back and was like, that's not it's not him. It's just
a random guy. And the head chef was sort of like, you're such a fucking racist. Just because
that guy's Asian, you think it's this food blogger. No, I had a similar situation. I
was in this restaurant and there was a VIP coming like the blah, blah, blah from blah,
blah, blah. So super important person. So the waiter was went direct to him, talked
to him all the time. He was serving him wines, recommending, talking, being funny, telling
jokes, blah, blah, blah. And then the owner of the restaurant comes and asks, like, how
did you treat the this guy as super nice looking? He's very happy. And the owner goes like,
that's not him. It's the table next to the guy comes and they ask me like, how was everything?
Like, hmm, the food was a little bit short, but okay. You know, and the other guy, of
course, was like, wow. He's like, wow, this is the best restaurant ever. That's really
funny. Hey, that's just come that comes to show you, you know, it's like that that's
the wrong approach. You have to like the right approach when a tester comes in, there's everybody
to say, we will do protocol, just everything as we always do, you know, and have the confidence
and that that is, you know, that you're doing everything that you can. It's what a shitty
situation to be passing full restaurant ideally passing over one table, just that a blood
sommelier comes in one way and another way to and then chef comes out and all the other
tables are sitting there like, what the fuck is going on? This is a circus. You know? Yeah.
I remember also in a restaurant, we had like this Tom Yum Goong soup, like in a very enhanced
way, I would say, you know, with a how do you call this when you make a double broth,
a broth with the with where you add roasted bones to a fond blanc. Well, like a super
strong broth for for like for like the Tom Yum Goong shop. So it was like a really rich
soup. It was already a super soup. It was already very, very rich. And then the chef
you there was this three mission in Star Chef coming and the chef went nuts and he started
like reducing and almost sending him a demi glass, you know, it was a and exactly and
driving everyone crazy for one person, you know, like and not even an inspector. Just
a guy with three mission in stars, you know? Yeah, it's weird how the focus is on the wrong
thing, you know, where, you know, it's this whole like ego boasting, you know, it's like
making dishes so that you live out your creativity. And while that's like an important aspect
of cooking, your focus should be on your guests, you know, and not just on one guest, but like
on all the guests. Right. I feel like that's that's where a lot of Michelin star restaurants,
especially fall really short. Because, sure, you're not supposed to get swayed by all sorts
of criticism, like I mean, you know, like, for example, a random Yelp review, you know,
but you should listen to it. And if you have, you know, and you should strive for everybody
being satisfied, not for yourself to be satisfied with yourself that also Yeah, but you know,
your guests should be the number one priority. But also like going back and we're going kind
of off topic if we're talking about restaurant guides, but I have this other story where
it was like this super top restaurant and I was like, you know, like an apprentice and
at some point they say, okay, it's confirmed. Table six is Alain Ducasse. And that day I
was the chef de pate. It was his day off. So I was in charge of the station. So the
chef chef, the executive chef calls me to his office, you know, and everything is full
of books and the guides there and he's like, do not fuck up. Basically. You get the opportunity
to do this here. And there aren't any restaurants in the world where you can do this at this
level. So you better not fuck up. And I go back to my station and everything when I remember
there was a moment at service where I think I threatened another apprentice for not giving
me odd dishes or something. And I went like really violent and somebody told me to calm
the fuck down. And at the end we delivered everything nice. I remember the head chef
saying like, oh fuck, Ducasse, Ducasse's wife is vegetarian. We just send them the blah,
blah, blah broth, which is not. There was some mistake in that regard. And at the end
everybody was cleaning and then there was this random beauty guy working around. And
suddenly I realized it was Ducasse. And nobody realized he was inside the kitchen after everybody
was so crazy. And he just left. And that was it. That was a funny story.
Yeah. I mean, I've had so many situations like that too. It's like, just, you know,
I mean, Ducasse is a, you know, is a hero, you know, it's like, if you are, if we talk
about celebrity chefs, you know, like Ducasse for me is like on the top because he's like
a cool guy. Maybe top one, I would say. Like he's an OG
and he's been an innovator since the eighties. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Totally. He's got, he's
like, he's been developing further and further, you know, like he's stayed with the times.
He's always been influential still today. And he's like a nice guy. Yeah. You know,
he's super supportive of other chefs. You know, he goes out to eat all the time in,
especially in Paris, you know, like goes to like small restaurants run by young up and
like young guns up and coming. And yeah, he's a, he's an OG.
And he is by the way, one of the most Michelin awarded chefs in the world. I think he's number
four or five. I don't know, but he has like a lot of Michelin stars.
He has an empire. So what are your thoughts on the Michelin
guide? Do you think it's important? Do you think it's bullshit? Half, half, half, half.
Yeah. So I, I mean, when I started cooking, probably very similar to you. I wanted to
go into Michelin straight away and I did. Right. Because I mean, that was like over
15 years ago. So at that time still Michelin was a standard of this is good. Right. This
is the top. It's not true today anymore. I think Michelin for me is like, like I don't
hate Michelin, but Michelin is not like for me the thing to strive for. For me, Michelin
encapsules a certain direction of cooking. Right. I wouldn't say a certain style because
that would be too specific, but a certain direction. Michelin, what I like about Michelin
is that even though restaurants of many different styles have Michelin stars, I don't even want
to go into like the Hawker stalls or stuff because that's a whole nother thing. But like
in Europe, you know, in sort of like, that sort of cooking, you can know, you know, if
you go to a Michelin star restaurant, you know, you're going to a certain direction.
It's going to be tasting menu, you know, there's certain parameters. And I like that about
that compared to other food guides where I feel like sometimes things get compared that
are just uncomparable. Yeah, I completely agree. And what I like now is that it's just,
you know, Michelin is just another aspect of the whole picture. It's just another piece
to the puzzle. There are restaurants that are by choice, way more casual, a la carte
ordering, you know, more relaxed atmosphere, et cetera, et cetera. But with the same quality
and the same dedication to execution. And it's really opened up the gastronomic world
so that you can say, okay, if I want a Michelin star experience, I go to a Michelin star restaurant,
but I can have a meal that's just as good, different setting, different style in a different
restaurant doesn't have a Michelin star. And yeah, so I don't, I don't particularly love
Michelin. I like Michelin, but it's not like the thing, right? For me.
Yeah. I have a similar opinion, like same as you. When I started as an apprentice, my
goal was to go to a one star, then a two star, and then a three star restaurant in that order.
And so I did. I learned a lot. I was really interested. And I think that's perfectly fine
and knowing who these chefs were and what they work are and knowing their books and
their work. And I think it's a good reference. I think if you're at culinary school, super
interesting to see the work of these people because they apply techniques in ways that
you probably haven't thought of. But then, then I realized that going to a Michelin star
restaurant is like going to the theater or going to an opera or something like that.
It's a special occasion. I think people that go to Michelin stars four times a week because
they're rich are just idiots. You know, like why would you do that? Doesn't make sense
to me in that case.
Yeah.
I mean, I have never been in a three-mission star place eating. I've been there working
and I probably wouldn't go there unless they invite me because I prefer going to one star
restaurants for the same price instead of a three star restaurant. I think the difference
is not that huge. I think a one star restaurant delivers excellent food. And a lot of people
don't know that a one star restaurant is already like a lifetime achievement. Something very,
very hard to get. It's something you don't get by chance or because you know someone.
It's not like that. So in that regard, I think like the standards are, the parameters are
clearly, you know, like people who knows, knows. I've been in places where I predicted
we're going to get a star and they got it, or I didn't knew they had a star and they
had it, or I thought this could have two and they got the second right away because I know
the parameters and I know what to expect because I've been around this world and reading and
visiting these places for many years. Then also when I travel for me, it's I usually,
and especially if it's when I was traveling in Asia, like I don't know anything about
the restaurants seen in Kuala Lumpur, you know. And for me, it's more reliable to look
like for the non-star places in the Michelin guide, the cheap eats that they also have
like this section. And I know these places have like also some parameters, perhaps is
it authenticity, you know, like there was like a Vietnamese place that wasn't the guide,
not not star place, but in the guide. And I know it's going to be like a good traditional
Vietnamese place and it was, you know, like in that case, I think it delivers trust and
that's what I like about it. What I don't like about it is, I don't know, maybe people
getting too obsessed about it or showing too much off that they work in Michelin star places
or these kinds of things. Like I'm like, you know, like, yeah, yeah, I feel like especially,
well, no, I actually don't want to say that. I was just going to say like Americans get
really obsessed with it, you know, and I'm really happy that I completely agree. I think
you put it very well. I completely agree with you. And I'm very happy that we're moving
away from this mania, you know, also like not just like in the perception of customers
and guests going to restaurant, but like from chef's point of view, I'm so happy that there's
so much more spectrum, you know, I have so many friends that I've come up through my
career with that have been in Michelin star restaurants, you know, for like the vast majority
of their career, and then at some point, decide to step away from that and pursue a different
style of cooking, which is not based on so and so many Ames Bouche and tweezers and all
those like, I mean, these are cliches. You definitely don't have to have that for cooking
in Michelin star, but you know, it doesn't make it any like it doesn't make it less good,
you know, it's just like a different style. I'm super happy that this is the case now.
Yeah, also something that a lot of people don't know, because even Xander, the producer
of the show, he, he once asked me, why aren't there any Michelin star restaurant here in
Mexico, like there are super good restaurants. And I'm like, because there is not a guide
in Mexico, you know, like the guy at the beginning was only in France, and the places where the
guide exists, is a place that get a star. And you just mentioned United States, but United
States had not a Michelin guide until 2005. If I'm not wrong, before that, existed. So
all these places like Daniel Boulou and John George and Thomas Keller didn't have a star
because the you would have like the what's the name of the American guide? I don't remember
there's like a they also have stars, but it's another guide, like it used to be like the
the most like the strongest guide and America until Michelin came came in. Now it's gone.
You know, it's like in Carter. Sucks man. So recently there were new additions. Brazil
is less than 10 years for sure. Yeah, I think Argentina was just last year. They opened a
guide in Argentina. I'm not sure about Chile. I could expect if Dubai Dubai was last year.
Exactly. You know, like they're Asia. Asia was after the 2010s. Before that, there was
no guide in Asia. Yeah, because it's not it's not easy. It's a huge undertaking not to guide
as I like to make a guide for, you know, a country. It's, it's nuts, because I mean,
to to rate the restaurant, several people have to go there several times a year, and
rate it and like get the average and like they did it, they take it very seriously.
You know, I mean, you would think they take it very seriously. There's a book I read many
years ago, it's called the French title is something like the inspector's seats to the
table. And and it's about like a mission and inspectors telling everything he never mentions
the guide kind of like how we speak about restaurants that we never mentioned the restaurants.
But everybody knows. So this guy was an inspector and he would say things like there were on
only five inspectors in France at the moment, or he will tell the stories how how he would
go to restaurants and probably he wouldn't be the person you were expecting. Maybe not
that guy that everybody's attending, but the other one that is eating with his kid and
tasting the kids menu and and you know, there's also like this romantic thing about Michelin
guy that an inspector would find a restaurant and a hidden forest in a mountain that nobody
knew of and it was like a culinary palace full of chef in their white uniforms and and
I mean, these kind of things. For me, Walters places something like that, you know, like,
it's a storage room with a with a top sushi place, you know, in the middle of nowhere,
like, it's pretty cool. So like in that regard. Yeah, for sure. What about 50 best? Before
we move on to 50 best, I want to ask you a question. While on the topic of Michelin,
what is your opinion on the green star? To be honest, I don't know, like the parameters
of it. I know places that I have gotten the star. I know places that have gotten the star
in our bullshit, because I know people that work inside and tell me like this, this is
all a lie. We're not sustainable at all. We're like eco criminals. It just, you know, saving
our asses. And that's my opinion on it. Yeah. The reason I'm asking is because I have the
same opinion while I'm not super hating on Michelin and of itself. I think the green
stars bullshit, because from what you hear, the it's just greenwashing, you know, like
it they don't like the idea is good. But the execution seems to be almost non existent.
I don't know if you saw the rant that Christian Puglisi posted on Instagram at one point.
No, on the topic. No, no idea. Yeah, it's worth watching and big props to Christian
Puglisi for always keeping it real. I'm going to visit, you know, I'm going just for four
days to Copenhagen and I booked two of his places because they're, you know, they're
on the way and the schedule. And I think this probably has one of the best pizzas in the
world. You know, like I also want to write a review about it. Yeah, Chris, Christian
Puglisi, one of the coolest chefs in my opinion, especially if you're interested in sustainability
and organic restaurants and that sort of stuff. And he posted a video after he got the green
star and he was telling the story of sort of like how it happened. And he was like,
yeah, you know, I was like somewhere else. And then I got a call sort of like, hey, congratulations,
you got the green star. And I was like, okay, cool. And he said he was like, okay, so then
I called my, the head chef of Relay, which was one of his main restaurants at the time,
so closed. And he was like, Hey, so what was going on there? Did somebody come by and look
at what you guys were doing? And his head chef was like, no, somebody just called us,
asked us a couple of questions. I answered them and they were like, okay, and that's
it. And they got a star, the green star. The thing is that, you know, this is probably
what happens with most places like, you know, like Aso Mendy and that sort of stuff, you
know, pseudo nature restaurants. And it's just so lazy. And it's like, probably most
people, they won't question it. It'd be like, Hey, great. We've got the green star, you
know, amazing. Of course, of course, of course. Yeah, I completely agree. But it's, you know,
it's like ideas good. Yeah, like, restaurants are going to produce a lot of waste, you know,
like, especially restaurants at that level. And then it's like a problem because the way
of dealing with waste is unglamorous, you know, and these restaurants are glamorous.
So there is this contradiction, which is a problem. And there goes a lot of chef ego
in the way. So like, I don't know what the solution is. Well, the solution is to be honest
about it, I think, and to acknowledge the problems that there are. And to be very open
and transparent and open for changes. Nobody's expecting it to be perfect. But the I think
the approach can't be that tight, all the ugly shit and just presented with the good
stuff. Especially when you talk about sustainability, it's kind of like, well, what are the problems
we need to approach? This, this, this, this, what can we do? And it's a process, right?
But not just kind of like, sweeping it under the carpet and being like, all right, everything's
fine. Because there are things like, I don't know, reusing some containers or this kind
of thing that are unglamorous. They're not pretty. They want to look pretty in the picture
that you want to make of your fancy restaurant, you know? Yeah. Just to say a silly example.
Yeah, totally. Totally. So now 50 best. No, 50 best. Oh, no, man. I, I don't know. I
have not looked at a 50 best list in a while because I, in the beginning, I thought it
was all right. Same. And after a while I was like, what is going on here? And after getting
a little bit of a glimpse behind the scenery, as you move from, you know, world famous restaurant
to world famous restaurant, you meet people and blah, and this and that, you just realize
how corrupt it is and how tied to tourism boards in countries and, and also on a more
superficial level, the way to compare restaurants was just like, man, what? For me, Michelin
is like the Oscars and 50 best is like the Rolling Stones 500 best list, which is completely,
completely random. You know, like, yeah, the Rolling Stones and Britney Spears and the
same list, you know, like something like that. I remember like just one of the last times
I looked at the list, I have no idea who's number one at the moment. I do not care. I
couldn't care less. For me, it's just like a big wank fest of people jerking each other
off of being, uh, who's number one, this, that, that. And like, I remember Rio again,
being like on, you know, spots, I don't know, 30 something. And then I remember like restaurants
coming in that were just like, I was like, how can you, how is this comparable? Exactly.
That's the problem. Like how can you compare Rio Jean with, I don't know, like a super
nice grill place, you know, in Columbia. And it's like, I'm sure that grill place is amazing,
but it's just not comparable. You know, like, you know what I feel about 50 best is that
it's almost comparable to like Instagram chefs. I feel like the more Instagrammable you are
and the more marketable you are, the higher you are on the list. And I, yeah, I completely
agree actually on that one. That's also something interesting because, uh, what I mentioned
earlier, like in Michelin, this cheap eats section they have, all the restaurants have
like super nice pictures. Maybe then you go there and the restaurant, especially in Asia
can be like a kind of trashy place compared to the pictures you saw earlier, but the pictures
are all perfect. So I can imagine they operate like Airbnb that sends you the photographer
to the place to make the nice pictures. And I could expect that from Michelin, but from
50 best they expect you to be Instagrammable already. You know, like it's probably one
of the parameters for sure. Yeah. And it's like kind of like what the whole thing is
built upon. And you know, with this huge award ceremonies and stuff like that. And it's just
like, man, I don't know. It's, uh, it's just like, uh, somebody once called it the like
boys club, you know, the like culinary boys club. It's like, yeah, you see all the same
faces all the time and everybody's just like, you know, blowing each other off and just
kind of like smoking cigars. Yeah. And it's like, nah, man, I don't, I don't need having
having the snowy chats. There's so many great restaurants in that list, you know, so many,
but I don't know. I, for me, it has very little to do with what for me is interesting in the
culinary world. Yeah. Yeah. I agree. Like it's for me again, it's a reference. If I see
a place that isn't on the list, it's like, oh, wow, this place isn't on the list, you
know, but that's it. Naturally. Some places come in that like, uh, you know, like, um,
recently kind of open for example, that I'll be happy about and that I'm like, oh cool.
They deserve recognition. You know, like for example, uh, Cezanne, you know, in Tokyo,
when it went in, you know, it's like a place that super amazing and you're like, okay,
well, they have to get recognition, you know, but I feel like if you take like for me, 50
best lists, if you take it as a, like, if you look at the 50 best list to see where
you're going to go eat, I feel like only rich pricks do that. You know, like, not that you're
a prick if you're rich, but it's kind of like, is he the only 50 best taste? Let's see, you
know, it's like, just go out and eat at a restaurant, man. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. For me,
that's the kind of people that goes to three mission in star restaurant. It's like, oh,
uh, you know, like, anyways, what about normal guides? Like, I don't know, trip advisor or
Google business. Um, I, um, to be honest, I pretty much never, ever, ever look at online
reviews of a place. Um, not even, not even the right hardly ever. Like I, for me it's
like automata. Well, if I'm like, you know, like, um, managing bookings and like for instance,
next week I'm having a trip. So I want to organize the dinners and come ahead with my
places booked, you know? So, and I'm checking and I, I will probably look for Michelin and
Google business. Perhaps I will see for some whatever journal is that built a list or has
some opinion or something. First thing I would do before that for sure is I will ask people.
I will ask friends. Like I asked you and some other friends for, but so, and then I, because
it's like, okay, Copenhagen, you know, it's like an important culinary city. So I want
to have a good grasp of this because the last time I went to Copenhagen, man, I was so mad.
Like I went there from, I was living in Bolivia and I went there and our host was like, we're
going to bring you to a very special place. And they brought us to a Latin American place.
And I was like, Oh, wow. Great. This is exactly what I wanted to do in Copenhagen. Having
here some fake Latin food. Oh man. That's so upsetting. That's like, I've done it before
and you just don't think about it because you just let, yeah. Yeah. Like it's very normal.
You know, I found out talking about this and it's very normal that, Oh, my friends for
Japan are coming. Let's take him to the sushi place. So they see how the sushi is different
is from Japan. It's good hearted, you know, but, but it's just, yeah, yeah, it is. It
is. Um, so like where I will check like normal guides is for example, like really sort of
like casual places. Like I'll try like a new pizza place, you know, then I'll read the
reviews or like a burger place that looks nice, but I haven't heard about it. Then I'll
read the reviews, you know, so like, for like take-ups. Also, if you're traveling and, and
you just want to nourish yourself, you know, you're not being picky or fancy. You just
want to eat for it's like a basic tool, you know, because I will very hardly eat in a
place that has less than 3.5. I think that's, that's my limit. If it has 3.5 and I'm
hungry, I will eat it. And if it's less than that by experience, I don't do it because
if I'm dying, I wouldn't do it because I know it's going to be shit and expensive and you
know, like for sure.
Yeah. Yeah, that's true. But like on the other hand, like if I am working in a business and
if I'm in a restaurant, I take like Google reviews and like Yelp reviews quite seriously,
you know, it's yeah, it's not like, oh, fuck that shit, you know, like I will read all
of them and like really, you know, a lot of them you can just push to a side if they're
bad, you know, but it's like for me, it's very important to, to pay attention to that
and to with each one kind of think like, all right, is there something valuable here for
me to consider? So I don't read them on my free time, but I read them for like my work
for sure.
But there was this review that went super viral. It was like someone writing super angry
one star. Like, yeah, we went to this place and we asked for the kids menu and they told
us they didn't have kids menu. So they brought us like the same meal and our 17 year old
kid had to eat like a proper.
Damn. And then the order answered something like when I was 17, I would eat two whole
ducks, two whole chickens and potatoes and something like that. And that went super viral,
you know, like that 17 year old baby.
That's horrible. I said, I really, I saw one the other day where it was kind of like one
star, super horrible, worst pizza I've ever had. Dough undercooked, topping super disgusting,
never going again. And the owner was like, we don't sell pizza. Like what is going on?
Yeah. I've seen some that one star, this is horrible. And what was it? There was a long
queue and we didn't, they asked us to have reservations so we couldn't get in. And it
was like, oh yeah. Okay. So it's terrible. I hate that.
You didn't even eat, you know, but, but I think the ones that make me the most angry
are the ones where it's like three stars. Everything was great. Food, service, amazing
restaurant.
Yeah. There was another one that went super viral. There's nothing to do with reviews,
but someone asked someone asked on Twitter, is cocaine gluten free? And then add like
millions of repostings and comments of all kinds. You can Google it. It's like a funny
tweet.
So what are the other guides are there? There is Goldmyyo, Lalist and those kinds of things.
But I think those are minor guides. Nobody cares about, right? Even though Goldmyyo
is a strong reputation and, and you know, the
It used to be big, I feel like. And now it's like, nobody really cares anymore.
Maybe only in France. I would say Germany as well, at least some years ago.
Not anymore though. Like that's the thing. Like it used to be like, oh, they have so
and so many stars and so and so many Goldmyyo points. It always was together. And I don't
hear anybody talking about that shit anymore.
Well, then there are local guides, all kinds of local guides in each country. Like you
have Feinschmecker in Germany, you have Webebsol here that, you know, they have their audience.
They have their place.
Yeah, for sure. And it's like small, you know, also like magazine columns, you know, like
I think that's quite nice, you know, when there's like good magazines and there's like
a small mention of your restaurant sort of like, yeah, you know, I don't know, you know,
for me, that's kind of like, that's much more like, I would rather have that, you know,
be mentioned in local magazines having maybe like a Bib Gourmand, you know, I really like
Bib Gourmand.
Yeah. Could you explain what Bib Gourmand is?
So Bib Gourmand is an award that the Michelin guides gives restaurants for really excellent
quality. That's not necessarily in a Michelin sort of fine dining setting, but it's like
exceptional food for an affordable price point, I think is the criteria. I'd much rather have
a Bib Gourmand and Michelin start doing else with you.
Yeah, me too, probably.