1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:11,300 Hi everyone, welcome to pot luck food talks. Not what you expected is it? This week I'm 2 00:00:11,300 --> 00:00:16,520 here with my buddy Eric. Eric, how have you been? Hey, how are you doing? Good, Mark. 3 00:00:16,520 --> 00:00:21,980 Good. It feels awkward you doing the intro. You want me to do it or? Yeah, it felt awkward 4 00:00:21,980 --> 00:00:28,500 for me too. Let's not do that again. So what are we talking about today? Man, I really 5 00:00:28,500 --> 00:00:36,760 wanted to talk to you about the Amazon, not the evil multi billion trillion company with 6 00:00:36,760 --> 00:00:43,400 that weird bald guy, but the river and the region around it and the jungle and the tribes 7 00:00:43,400 --> 00:00:47,600 and you spent a lot of time there, you know, and I think it's a really interesting culinary 8 00:00:47,600 --> 00:00:52,320 landscape. How was your experience there? Yeah, well, like I visited the Amazon many 9 00:00:52,320 --> 00:00:58,480 times as a kid because Venezuela has also part of the Amazon and I have visited in different 10 00:00:58,480 --> 00:01:05,440 countries, Bolivia, Brazil, Peru and Venezuela. I haven't been to Colombia. I know Colombia 11 00:01:05,440 --> 00:01:11,040 is super interesting as well. But yeah, what can I say about the Amazon? Well, first of 12 00:01:11,040 --> 00:01:20,000 all, like the whole rainforest was human created when humans arrived to South America, like 13 00:01:20,000 --> 00:01:27,320 about 20,000 years ago, they created this islands of, you know, agriculture, like this 14 00:01:27,320 --> 00:01:34,880 forest islands and the whole thing grew into the forest that we know today. And things 15 00:01:34,880 --> 00:01:43,560 that I've seen that I feel are super interesting. For example, there is this flat bread in Venezuela 16 00:01:43,560 --> 00:01:52,680 called cassava and this bread is made of yucca, manioc, but a specific one that is a poisonous 17 00:01:52,680 --> 00:01:59,360 one. So there is this specific procedure to cook it, which is not that complicated. It's 18 00:01:59,360 --> 00:02:05,080 like grating it and changing the water and then the second batch, you can actually use 19 00:02:05,080 --> 00:02:11,760 it to cook without being poisonous. Today, there are new varieties that are not poisonous 20 00:02:11,760 --> 00:02:15,960 anymore. So all the maniocs that you will find in the supermarkets in Latin America 21 00:02:15,960 --> 00:02:21,640 are perfectly edible. The thing is I grew up with this flatbread called cassava, learning 22 00:02:21,640 --> 00:02:26,400 that it was something super Venezuelan from the indigenous people and blah, blah, blah. 23 00:02:26,400 --> 00:02:33,200 But of course we don't get so much history of the pre European civilizations and cultures 24 00:02:33,200 --> 00:02:39,880 because basically the reigning culture is the one that exterminated them or dominated 25 00:02:39,880 --> 00:02:45,840 them. So it makes sense that they don't care about them like structurally. I would say 26 00:02:45,840 --> 00:02:50,880 nowadays the new generations are really interested in getting all that knowledge back. There 27 00:02:50,880 --> 00:02:57,600 was a lot of knowledge lost just by losing the languages and the religions. You can imagine 28 00:02:57,600 --> 00:03:05,400 how much, how many things got lost there. But my point was when I went to Bolivia, which 29 00:03:05,400 --> 00:03:11,600 is pretty far away from Venezuela, they also had this flatbread called cassava and they 30 00:03:11,600 --> 00:03:17,000 also say that there's something from them that they always had it. And for me, this 31 00:03:17,000 --> 00:03:23,920 was like super crazy and it really changed my way of understanding the continent. Of 32 00:03:23,920 --> 00:03:28,200 course you see in Europe and you will see countries that have variation of the word 33 00:03:28,200 --> 00:03:35,120 bread or the word pan and different variations. But you can track it down. This comes from 34 00:03:35,120 --> 00:03:39,720 from the Romans or the Germans. And that's, that's where the word comes from. Well, in 35 00:03:39,720 --> 00:03:47,040 the case of cassava, the there were that there was a specific tribe that was a very dominant 36 00:03:47,040 --> 00:03:54,960 one all over the region. It was called the Arawak. So there was a caribbean, the caribbean 37 00:03:54,960 --> 00:03:59,880 family. Then you have the Arawak and there are of course many others, but this one that 38 00:03:59,880 --> 00:04:05,160 I work again, this is something that I, when I went to school in Venezuela, you learn that 39 00:04:05,160 --> 00:04:13,760 the Arawakos or Arawaks, it's an ethnic, an indigenous family that you have in the country. 40 00:04:13,760 --> 00:04:19,680 But you like, or at least I didn't pay enough attention at school, but I didn't go to the, 41 00:04:19,680 --> 00:04:25,800 this was all over South America. They get as far as to Bolivia, you know, and these 42 00:04:25,800 --> 00:04:29,760 are the responsible of having this flatbread that you will find it also in the Caribbean. 43 00:04:29,760 --> 00:04:35,400 And that they also, that this tribes could also navigate and that they were also spreaded in the Caribbean, 44 00:04:35,400 --> 00:04:41,160 into the deep Amazonas with the same language and these kinds of things, like a specific 45 00:04:41,160 --> 00:04:47,920 bread that is something that can survive, you know, colonization and trans-culturalization 46 00:04:47,920 --> 00:04:53,040 and all these kinds of things. But the bread remains with the same word and across the 47 00:04:53,040 --> 00:04:57,440 continent, you know, and I thought that was pretty interesting. But then other things 48 00:04:57,440 --> 00:05:01,880 that, well, first of all, there are many, many things that come from the Amazonas that 49 00:05:01,880 --> 00:05:10,680 we see daily, like chilies or what else, a pineapple, that there are lots of, you know, 50 00:05:10,680 --> 00:05:16,280 the different fruits and things that have their origin there. Perhaps I said something 51 00:05:16,280 --> 00:05:22,240 wrong. Perhaps somebody will say, no, pineapples are not from the rainforest, they're from 52 00:05:22,240 --> 00:05:27,080 the mountain or something like that. But anyways, another thing that was really interesting, 53 00:05:27,080 --> 00:05:35,320 similar to Casabe, was that I saw this ant chili sauce in Venezuela. And for me, this 54 00:05:35,320 --> 00:05:41,280 was super interesting. All of my life, I thought that actually the ants gave the spiciness 55 00:05:41,280 --> 00:05:46,280 to the sauce. So it was like, oh, wow, you have like a different source of spiciness 56 00:05:46,280 --> 00:05:52,120 that is not capsicum, but it's like ants. And then I found out that, no, the ants are 57 00:05:52,120 --> 00:05:57,120 not spicy. They add chili to the sauce and that's what makes it spicy. And the ants 58 00:05:57,120 --> 00:06:05,000 are only for flavor, but they have like this really deep meaty flavor. And again, this 59 00:06:05,000 --> 00:06:13,880 is also made like with a fermented yucca juice, manioc juice, that they use to also to give 60 00:06:13,880 --> 00:06:18,840 more flavor to the sauce. And again, they have the same thing in Peru and in Bolivia 61 00:06:18,840 --> 00:06:24,080 with different names. And for me, this was also super interesting, you know, because 62 00:06:24,080 --> 00:06:28,240 these are these kind of things like, I don't know, hummus that you will find all over the 63 00:06:28,240 --> 00:06:34,280 Mediterranean, but they're from completely different cultures or Middle East, better 64 00:06:34,280 --> 00:06:38,480 said, you know, and then they have different variations. So you will find this fermented 65 00:06:38,480 --> 00:06:43,520 yucca sauce with ants in different parts of the Amazonas with different variations. In 66 00:06:43,520 --> 00:06:50,680 Brazil, they have like a variation called tucupi, which is like a liquid yellow sauce. 67 00:06:50,680 --> 00:06:55,160 And you will find it in markets all over the Amazonas. And it's like a super sour sauce. 68 00:06:55,160 --> 00:07:02,800 Like it is very sour. And this sauce was featured in some of the menus at El Bulli, like when 69 00:07:02,800 --> 00:07:08,320 I was doing some research, like Ferran served. But when I see this and also in the last book 70 00:07:08,320 --> 00:07:15,520 of Tapas of Albert Adrià, he also has like a tucupi featured somewhere. But when I see 71 00:07:15,520 --> 00:07:22,480 that, it feels wrong to me somehow, because to make this sauce, these specific ones, you 72 00:07:22,480 --> 00:07:32,040 do need the, how to say, this bitter poisonous yucca to do the original right thing, right? 73 00:07:32,040 --> 00:07:37,400 Right. Which you won't find, you won't even find like, like the yuccas you see in South 74 00:07:37,400 --> 00:07:42,080 America and Europe. You will find like a different one, which is the African one. And it's not 75 00:07:42,080 --> 00:07:47,240 the same thing. And you won't get the same effect. These are the things with, you know, 76 00:07:47,240 --> 00:07:52,040 cooking recipes from other countries and trying to replicate them with local ingredients. 77 00:07:52,040 --> 00:07:57,360 And it's not going to be ever the same. But yeah, I would say those two things were kind 78 00:07:57,360 --> 00:08:04,360 of like, were impressive to me to see that there are like this parallelism or this recipes 79 00:08:04,360 --> 00:08:09,200 or dishes that you find in different regions of the Amazonas. It's also important to mention 80 00:08:09,200 --> 00:08:16,480 that the, remember the episode of taboo foods where I mentioned that mushrooms are not eating 81 00:08:16,480 --> 00:08:22,560 them in the Amazonas? Well, that's incorrect. Of course, ancient tribes did everything with 82 00:08:22,560 --> 00:08:31,760 mushrooms even as, you know, like hunting amulets with magic properties or also as drugs 83 00:08:31,760 --> 00:08:37,040 or medicines or food or all kinds of things. But all that knowledge, as I was mentioning, 84 00:08:37,040 --> 00:08:43,360 got lost. Like you see this new generations and, and it's, they're not necessarily linked 85 00:08:43,360 --> 00:08:49,400 to this tribes. For example, my friend Kenzo, he's, I don't know how many generations he 86 00:08:49,400 --> 00:08:55,720 has, but, but he has like Japanese heritage. But, but he's from the Amazonas. You see that 87 00:08:55,720 --> 00:09:00,120 like, there are like these settlers that come from, from different places that, that, that 88 00:09:00,120 --> 00:09:06,200 got installed there and, and, and made their villages and communities, but they, they have 89 00:09:06,200 --> 00:09:12,280 no link to shamanism or, you know, like, like this old knowledge from old cultures in most 90 00:09:12,280 --> 00:09:18,440 cases. And again, all over the Amazonas, it doesn't matter where it's completely Christian. 91 00:09:18,440 --> 00:09:24,800 You won't see any religion that is not Christianism in the Amazonas. Well, except of course, remote 92 00:09:24,800 --> 00:09:31,440 tribes that haven't got, you know, like colonized or trans-culturalized. There's also this huge 93 00:09:31,440 --> 00:09:38,880 fish called pirarucu or paiche. It's like, like a huge monster. Like it can- 94 00:09:38,880 --> 00:09:42,120 It's like prehistoric sort of dinosaur fish, right? Yeah. 95 00:09:42,120 --> 00:09:44,040 Yeah, exactly. It can be- 96 00:09:44,040 --> 00:09:46,840 Don't they make, don't they make leather out of the skin also? 97 00:09:46,840 --> 00:09:52,080 Yeah, leather. And, and it's also processes similar to cut fish, you know, salted, especially 98 00:09:52,080 --> 00:09:57,640 in Brazil. It's an invasive species, so it's good to hunt it. You have to hunt it. You 99 00:09:57,640 --> 00:10:04,320 don't fish the thing. You need like a specific procedure to get it. And these are like, you 100 00:10:04,320 --> 00:10:10,520 know, like a big one can be as big as two or three cars in line, you know, like that, 101 00:10:10,520 --> 00:10:17,120 that large. And of course you have all these types of fruits. A very famous one is acai 102 00:10:17,120 --> 00:10:24,640 that it has become very trendy in this, you know, smoothie, healthy domain. It's considered 103 00:10:24,640 --> 00:10:30,720 a super food, but like this acai that is a fruit from a palm tree, there are millions 104 00:10:30,720 --> 00:10:36,600 of different ones and also millions of different palm hearts that you can eat. But I mean, 105 00:10:36,600 --> 00:10:42,800 I could talk on and on and on of different ingredients and things, but yeah, basically 106 00:10:42,800 --> 00:10:51,400 that's it. There are many chefs that have worked with specific producers from the Amazonas. 107 00:10:51,400 --> 00:10:55,960 Probably one of the most famous one is Alex Atala. Of course, in Peru you have Pedro 108 00:10:55,960 --> 00:11:03,520 Schiaffino in Venezuela, you have Nelson Mendez in Colombia, you have Eduardo Martinez. There 109 00:11:03,520 --> 00:11:09,760 is also in Belen in Brazil is another chef called Tiago Castaño. And these are chefs 110 00:11:09,760 --> 00:11:17,000 that, you know, they work mostly with Amazonian produce and working with Amazonian produce, 111 00:11:17,000 --> 00:11:24,080 one of the keys is to have a connection with the communities and the producers and building 112 00:11:24,080 --> 00:11:29,720 fruitful relationships. Yeah, that's nice. Do you have any questions, Phil, on the Amazon? 113 00:11:29,720 --> 00:11:34,240 So I mean, it's like to me from as somebody who's never been there, right? And like looking 114 00:11:34,240 --> 00:11:38,480 at it from the outside, you know, like it's super, this whole area is so interesting because 115 00:11:38,480 --> 00:11:42,920 like you say, you know, kind of grew from like little agriculture sort of plots. So 116 00:11:42,920 --> 00:11:48,520 like I feel like loads of people imagine it as this like really hostile environment, you 117 00:11:48,520 --> 00:11:54,040 know. But I think it is. Yeah, it is. Sure. But like at the same time, it feels really 118 00:11:54,040 --> 00:11:59,680 plentiful. Like there's so much stuff there, you know, like it's very giving. Also, how 119 00:11:59,680 --> 00:12:05,680 would you like if you had to sum it up, how would you describe the like the flora? Yeah, 120 00:12:05,680 --> 00:12:13,200 I mean, it does feel hostile in terms of, you know, you see millions of different mosquitoes 121 00:12:13,200 --> 00:12:18,720 from millions of different sizes around you and you want to get them, you want to get 122 00:12:18,720 --> 00:12:24,280 rid of them that for once. And if you talk about the flora, so like if you put the whole 123 00:12:24,280 --> 00:12:31,960 Amazon together, it could be as big as Europe, probably like Central Europe. So it's super 124 00:12:31,960 --> 00:12:38,360 diverse. But even in specific regions, what I've been like, it feels like like you don't 125 00:12:38,360 --> 00:12:44,200 see a repeated plant. It feels like like every plant is a different one, you know. And if 126 00:12:44,200 --> 00:12:50,320 you're walking through the forest, you will see like this crazy micro environments where 127 00:12:50,320 --> 00:12:56,400 suddenly everything is full of blue mushrooms, you know, like this, just this space that 128 00:12:56,400 --> 00:13:04,000 is suddenly you enter the domain of this specific color or thing or plant, you know, while you 129 00:13:04,000 --> 00:13:11,360 walk. That sounds really trippy. Yeah, you will see, you know, like crocodiles or tigers 130 00:13:11,360 --> 00:13:16,960 or snakes and for sure, you know. Yeah, nice. And like food wise, you know, I mean, like 131 00:13:16,960 --> 00:13:20,960 if you were talking about the culinary, like the produce landscape, how would you summarize 132 00:13:20,960 --> 00:13:27,440 it? I remember we went like mushroom hunting with with Pedro Scefino and Jacob Olander, 133 00:13:27,440 --> 00:13:32,440 who really know the forest and where to find mushrooms and these kind of things. They really 134 00:13:32,440 --> 00:13:37,360 could identify the mushrooms that we could eat. And they were these mushrooms that they 135 00:13:37,360 --> 00:13:43,840 look exactly like, like seps, like porcini mushrooms. Yeah. It's probably like, you know, 136 00:13:43,840 --> 00:13:49,360 like a variation, like an Amazonian variation or something like that. But that was quite 137 00:13:49,360 --> 00:13:55,800 amazing. Vanilla, wild vanilla, probably the best vanilla that I've tried in my life was 138 00:13:55,800 --> 00:14:02,000 a piece of I actually had never seen fresh vanilla that looks kind of like like a pea 139 00:14:02,000 --> 00:14:07,680 or a green plantain. I've never seen fresh vanilla. Yeah, because it's like a green thing 140 00:14:07,680 --> 00:14:14,920 that you then you fermented, you know, until it becomes black. Yeah. Yeah, that was really 141 00:14:14,920 --> 00:14:19,800 impressive. But again, doing this foraging session with Scefino, this is a guy that he 142 00:14:19,800 --> 00:14:26,680 would take any plant and eat it. You know, that there is a like a vast potential of things 143 00:14:26,680 --> 00:14:33,720 that can be found in London. And this is the work that chefs like again and NUEMA in Ecuador 144 00:14:33,720 --> 00:14:40,200 also like the chefs are trying to take advantage of this since you're already in a country 145 00:14:40,200 --> 00:14:45,280 that has access to the Amazonas to put this kind of products into the restaurants, which 146 00:14:45,280 --> 00:15:05,360 is super interesting. That's really cool.