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Hi everyone, welcome to Pot Luck Food Talks.

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Today we're going to talk about sauces and the sauce maker, the Saucer.

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Yeah, what's the deal?

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Why is it like ever since I started cooking this like term Saucer has had this like very

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mythical sort of like feel to it.

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Why do you think that is?

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I have a lot of theories.

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Like, well, usually in many places that the Saucer is also the guy that also does it.

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And smaller kitchens where you have to merge roles, the Saucer also does fish and meats

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and sauces, which is kind of like pretty much the coolest things in the kitchen, no?

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Somehow or like the highlights in a menu.

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Kind of, yeah.

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But also I think it has a lot to do with some chauvinistic macho thing that you're the one

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and the grill and the sauces and something like that.

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That is also on the hotline because on the opposite side, I think the guard man here,

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which is the people who usually takes care of also the dressings and salads and coles

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and tereins and all of that.

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I think technically it's broader, you see more different techniques.

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You also have to do with meats.

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You also like do a lot of things, but it's not as sexy as the Saucer.

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You know?

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Yeah, I don't know.

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But I don't know why it is because like I feel the same, but I don't want to feel the

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same.

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You know what I mean?

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Like I don't want to admit that to myself that I just find the Saucer much cooler than

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a vegetable because like, you know, you talk about vegetable cooking, you know, there's

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especially nowadays, there's just as much like feeling and fine tuning and stuff involved.

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You know what I mean?

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Look at like Anan Passan or like Michel Bras and stuff like that.

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You know, it's like it's not just an afterthought anymore, you know?

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But still there's something about even now to this day when I make a sauce and I make

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a really good sauce, you know, sauces for me are magical, honestly, you know?

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And I even thought that as a kid when I would see my grandma cooking, she would make sauces

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and they were like unbelievably delicious.

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And I always thought like how it was like this really magical skill to me just making

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this liquid with like a certain consistency and the certain like flavor that's just like

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amazing.

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And the sauce makes I still believe that a sauce really makes a dish.

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For sure.

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Not always, of course, but like a lot of the times the sauce can make or break it.

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Yeah, I think like how could I put it?

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Like the piece of meat is a skeleton and then the sauce gives it the whole body and nails

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and hair and character and the whole whatever to make it like a whole body, you know?

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Yeah, I think it comes from my cultural background also, like being German and like eating like

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Christmas dinner.

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And then like at the end you've eaten the duck, you've eaten the cabbage and then you

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just want to have like one more plate and you just take dumplings and just loads of sauce,

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you know?

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Yeah, and you just like mop up the sauce and that's like the last thing you eat.

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Yeah, or having these jars, you know, this little social jars where you can just put

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more sauce and you're way more than you need, you know, like love those men.

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If I had a restaurant, I would put those on the table, you know, just like a sauce jar.

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Yeah.

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But, you know, that being said, making sauce is difficult.

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Making good sauce is difficult.

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And especially if you don't use any cheap tricks, you know, I think that that's also

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part of the reason why the Saucer is one of the most respected because the most respected

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roles is because it has to be one of the roles with most experience as opposed to, let's

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say, other areas like pastry or even garden manager I mentioned, where you can stick to

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precise recipes, for example, to make a dressing.

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The Saucer, there are too many variables that you have to have criteria to know what's going

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on and also to make adjustments according to your knowledge and also the process of

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bringing a sauce to point to get it to the right amount of saltiness and aromas and everything,

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like finishing a sauce, you know, saying, okay, now it's done.

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Now this can be served.

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That requires a lot of experience.

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Yeah, true, true.

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And there's a lot of like intuition, you know, like often, you know, people that I work with,

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they ask me something like, but you know, what's the recipe, you know, and there are

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a lot of recipes for a lot of things.

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And of course you can have a recipe for a sauce, which to me is just like a broad guideline

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though.

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Exactly, guidelines, yes.

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Yeah, because everything else is just like healing and blah and stuff.

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You know, I had somebody ask me the other day as I was reducing down a jus, for people

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who don't know what a jus is, it's like a very concentrated meat sauce that's basically

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just reduced, made from roasted meat and vegetables if you want, and like some type of spices,

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depending how you make it, but mainly it's meat and bones.

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And you reduce it so much until it's sticky and tasty and greasy.

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And I was tasting it while I was reducing.

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And somebody asked me, but like, this is obviously, this obviously needs to reduce for like another

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eight hours.

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So why are you tasting it?

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You know?

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Because I want to see how it's developing, you know?

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Of course.

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I can tell now if it's too sweet, did I add too many vegetables?

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Did I add too many carrots and too many onions?

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You know?

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Then I can counteract that now.

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I can add some tomato, you know, I can add some this and that, blah.

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Or you know, something like that.

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And this practice I've been doing, like I've even started doing this when I was in my apprenticeship

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at Margot, for example.

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I would taste the broths while they were reducing.

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And I got the same question back then.

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And I was like, no, I didn't want to see how it's progressing, you know?

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I remember seeing that.

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I remember seeing a video of Eric Lepert doing exactly that and explaining exactly that.

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The moment you start, like while it's still super liquid, because you want to have a reference

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the next time you do it, you want to remember that flavor.

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I mean, it's not to enjoy it.

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It's just to know at what point it is exactly.

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As you said, how is it evolving?

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And then talking about Eric Lepert, like his chef de cuisine is a guy called Eric Gastel.

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This is also like a legendary saucier.

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I saw a documentary about him making sauces and he has like this sauce station, you know,

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with 30 different sauces.

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And can you imagine like doing sauces for Le Bernardin where everything has to be so

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on point and so detailed, you know, like a three star restaurant?

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I guess that's also the point.

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Like it's a big deal.

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Like in a high end restaurant, the sauce aspect of the whole thing.

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Yeah, absolutely.

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Totally.

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You have to send me that documentary, by the way.

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I need to watch that.

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Anything that's to do with this like old school cooking.

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I love that stuff.

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But yeah, no, absolutely.

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But then again, but then on the other side, obviously, there's the sauces and stocks also.

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We can't forget about stocks, you know, the base stocks you make, you know, fumée, fond

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blanc, you know, brown stock, whatever, vegetable stocks, you know.

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Before you go on with that, because I think this is really important.

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Could you like describe like a normal routine day of a saucier?

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Because it's actually there's a lot of stock cooking in a saucier's routine.

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So how it was for me when I was working in a saucier, now the kitchen I work in is so

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small that we don't have a saucier.

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Everybody just does everything.

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But for me would get in and the first thing you do is you start the basis that you need.

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So if you need to make bisque, right, and you need to make jus, and you need to make,

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I don't know, purit.

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So you get all your vegetables ready and first of all, you make your mirepoix, right, your

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vegetable base.

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And you just like smash that down, get it divided.

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You get your pots ready, heating up.

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I mean, when I was like on high times in the saucier, you know, we'd have these big copper

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pots.

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And so you get them like to a certain temperature, not high, because you don't want them boiling

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hot, but they need some time to really absorb the heat so that they hold it.

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So you get it to like a nice medium temperature.

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And then you start all your bases, you start sweating off all your stuff.

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Depends what you're doing, obviously, if you're making like a brown, like a sauce or like

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a roasty thing, you need to start roasting off your vegetables.

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If you make clear stock or like a clear base or something, you know, you get that going,

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but you get it going as fast as possible.

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And then obviously it depends on sort of like what produce you have coming in, because if

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you're the saucier, you know, you need to prepare all the proteinals, the fish, what

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fish pots do you have in the seafood?

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Do you have lobster claws?

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Do you have langoustines?

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Do you have this?

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Do you have that?

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You know, so you have to have a constant rotation of your production, you know, am I getting

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a load of fish in today?

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Okay, do I need to make fumet?

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Fumet is a clear fish stock, right?

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So you get that going.

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Am I getting chickens in, you know, or like do I need to make a fond blanc, which is a

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clear chicken stock for like a base of something else?

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And you need to have this constant production rolling.

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And then of course, like once that's going, because those things take the longest time

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and they work themselves.

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Once they got going, they work themselves while you do other things.

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So once they kind of start going, you need to like, you go on to cleaning the fish, cleaning

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the seafood, cutting the meat, portioning, et cetera.

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And then of course you need to tend to your stocks and sources, right?

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So like a stock or a source, it needs constant care and attention.

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You need to digress it, you know?

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So like all the impurities that get caught in the sort of like the protein that coagulates

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while cooking rises to the surface.

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And you need to take that off.

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You need to skim the fat off because the fat adds bitterness and impurities to your stock.

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So you need to constantly take care of.

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Yeah, because also any little mistake becomes like exponential and three-dimensional.

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Like if you burn the vegetables too much at the beginning, you will have that at the end

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sauce or all these notes of whatever mistake you do at some point in the roadmap.

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Yeah, for sure.

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If you roast your, you know, you roast duck bones, right?

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Duck bones have a lot of fat, you know, like that carcasses rather.

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And you don't strain off the fats well enough or you roast them a little bit too much.

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You start your stock.

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It doesn't matter what you do.

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It's going to be bitter.

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It's going to taste horrible.

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Yeah.

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I hate like, I've seen like these chefs that don't care about these things.

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It's like, no, no.

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It's like, I don't take the fat out because so I will have more sauce and it's more cost

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efficient.

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And it's like, okay, you're just being, you're just not understanding at all what you're

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doing, you know?

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Yeah.

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So if you think about the quantity of your sauce rather than the quality of your sauce,

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then you've lost already, you know, because it is a very frustrating process to look in

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the restaurant, in my, like in my restaurant, you know, I start like, I'll start like a

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20 litre pot of broth, right?

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So like I make it a little bit, I have to make it time efficient.

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So I don't usually, you make a brown stock and then you make another base of bones and

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vegetables.

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You put a brown stock on top of that and then you reduce that down.

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I don't have time or space for that, unfortunately.

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So what I do is I make a very nice base of like roasted bones and I've started doing

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jus just with bones and onions.

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That's it.

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No vegetables, no mewpaw, no onions.

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Yeah.

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It's amazing.

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Like you don't need that.

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Yeah.

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I put them like Tetris like in a pot so that they're as close together as possible.

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I make some brulee onions, which is onions just cut in half with the skin on a pan dry

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until they're black on the surface.

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These ones have to be really burned.

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Yeah.

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I love those.

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Yeah.

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It's a little bit counterintuitive if you think it'll taste burned, but it won't if

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you do it right.

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It's totally fine.

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And then I add water just so it covers the bones.

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I want it to be as tightly packed as possible.

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And then I let it go overnight at like 80 degrees.

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I have an induction that I can put on 80 degrees.

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So it's just, it's not even simmering.

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It's just like lightly moving and it infuses all night.

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Then the next day I bring it to a boil.

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I bring all the impurities up.

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I take them off and then I strain it and I reduce it.

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And out of this 20 liter pot of sauce, I'll maybe get one to two liters of sauce, you

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know?

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Yeah.

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If I'm lucky.

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And it's very frustrating to have this pot that's as big as my torso to then have a saucepan

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that's like, there's nothing in it.

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And you taste it and you're like, it can still reduce some more.

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And you're like, but if I reduce it some more, it's all going to be gone.

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But if you want a nice sauce, that's what you have to do.

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What about thickening?

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I think that's also like a super important aspect.

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The most purest way in most cases is, as you said, just to reduce it until you have the

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desired sticky, collagenous texture.

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But I mean, that doesn't apply for all sauces.

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Like for instance, a wok sauce, perhaps you're going to use cornstarch or some specific sauces

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you will use, yuzu starch, or some specific sauces you will thicken them.

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If you're just home cooking, you might just blend the cooking juices with the vegetables

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to get like a, you know, like a thick cream.

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And, oh yeah.

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There are like all kinds of ways.

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What are your thoughts on that?

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Well, I mean, I think the nicest way, the most purest way is to have just carefully

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reduce your stock.

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But then again, it depends on your understanding of what you're making.

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Stock needs to have enough collagen and it needs to have enough, you know, sugar, as

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in like roasted Maillard reaction, you know, particles, like brown particles.

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Otherwise you reduce it and it won't get thickened.

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You know, I'm a big fan of adding, you know, like very collagenous things to stocks.

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Like for example, if I make a chicken stock or especially if I make a brown chicken stock,

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I put the feet in, you know, something that like people would have frowned upon, but like,

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you know, I, you know, taking inspiration also from Asian cooking, you know, I put the

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feet in this super nice.

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Yeah, you know, I learned from our friend, John Bastericea.

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He had like this industrial gelatin that it looked like brown sugar.

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This gelatin you don't see like in stores and he would use that as a sauce thickener.

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And I mean, your lips would stick to each other like every time you would eat one of

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his sauces.

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That's very nice.

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I think like, I don't have a problem with thickening, you know, but like the purest

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or the like highest artist like to make it without thickening.

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Of course.

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There's a really good trick from amazing chef, Fergus Henderson from St. John.

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They have this thing that they use in their kitchen as a basic cooking tool for different

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things for sauces, for pie mixes, for everything.

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They call it a trotter gear.

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So it's made from pig strutters.

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And I think they like cook pig strutters down and then sort of like shredded and like whatnot

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and blah.

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And I've had it in like many forms, for example, like in pie fillings and stuff like a venison

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and trotter pie is amazing, but you get the stickiness and this.

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And I think sort of like even if like you make a veal stock, for example, if you have

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veal feet, like that's very good.

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But even if I have like a, I want to make a nice veal jus, I'll buy like one trotter.

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I'll have them cut it in half and I roast it until it's really nice, golden brown, a

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delicious flavor and just add it in.

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And it gives so much stickiness and so much anxiousness, you know, so much body to the

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sauce and gives you that really pleasant, like you just described this feeling of your

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lip sticking together.

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Yeah.

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And I think it's also really nice in that nobody does anymore is blood thickening.

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Oh yeah.

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You know, where you have like a, like a pigeon sauce, one of the most delicious sauces that

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I can remember.

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Well, I ate here in Berlin at an event where Christian Lose was cooking and my good friend

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Norbert Kruger was, was cooking the dish.

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It's like one of his classic dishes.

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Like it was like a chapel grill pigeon with sauce, like the one and like, like a, like

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a flour sugar.

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But that sauce was absolutely delicious.

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And it was a pigeon jus that's thickened with a blended mixture of the, of the heart and

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the liver and blood.

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And so it's like very tricky because you want to thicken it and strain it.

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You can't cook the blood too much, you know, otherwise it coagulates and it gets nasty.

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And then they added like a melange noir, like a mixture of like dark pepper.

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And it was so extremely flavorsome and like pleasant and nice and complex.

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One of the best sauces I've ever tried.

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That's it for this week's episode of potluck food talks.

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