Hi everyone.
Welcome to another episode of potluck food talks.
Today I'm here with my homie Phil, and we're going to talk about taboo.
So what's the deal with taboo?
You know anything about the origin of the word taboo?
I don't know.
I just know the show with Tom Hardy, which was really good.
Well, I read it's like a Polynesian word that was introduced to English by Captain James Cook.
And it means forbidden or sacred, something you don't want to touch or get into.
So what's the deal with taboo foods?
Cause that's the kind of thing like taboos, like a sort of unspoken kind of thing.
You know, there are a lot of taboos in kitchens, but definitely like a lot of like taboo foods.
Have you had like any experiences of eating something that you felt like, you know, that you were breaking into a forbidden domain?
Yeah, for sure.
I mean, the first thing that comes to mind is when I was in Japan and we were at back then when the big fish market was still to Kiji.
And we were getting shown around by our fish market guide and we got to a stand and he was kind of explaining, you know, what this was all about.
And somebody translated to me that it was whale, that this guy was specializing in selling whale.
And I was like, oh, wow.
Like I've never seen whale meat before or like, or anything.
And he saw that I was like, cause I was like excited, but not in sort of like, oh my God, let's eat some whale.
You know, that's awesome.
Because I know that it's a very controversial subject, but I was just kind of like, oh wow.
You know, I've never seen that before.
And so without really saying anything, he turned around and bought like a piece of whale for me out of his like Japanese politeness, you know.
And afterwards, like when the tour was finished, we brought that to like a local sushi place and we just gave them the piece of whale to slice up and to make like a sushi rice ball.
And it was genuinely very, very delicious.
Like it was, it was very, very tasty.
It was like very fatty tuna.
But then again, like that's because he bought like really premium stuff.
I found out later because I actually went back and like wanted to buy some whale again, cause I had like friends and I wanted to show them and stuff.
And I bought some whale and it was like not half as good.
It was like really kind of very, very strong flavored.
And I was like, ah, okay.
That's what I would expect to be like super strong flavored.
Yeah.
He must've bought some really nice stuff because it was like super fatty.
It does have like a, like a very pronounced, like, um, I don't even know how you call it in English.
You know, the, like the thing that like they used to, um, like that oil that they get from whales.
Okay.
Yeah.
They used to make oil lamps out of and stuff like that.
Yeah.
I mean, uh, here in the Basque country, this used to be like a huge whaling region.
There are even some old bars where, where you find like the, how do you say it?
Like a vertebrae disc, you know, like a huge one of the whale, like hanging in a bar.
Like, uh, I remember seeing that in a bar somewhere in old town.
Oh, that's crazy.
I've never seen that before.
Yeah.
So what do you think makes a, uh, specific foods taboo or forbidden or, because I mean,
we, we could come up with some things like, you know, like, like, like,
things like there are some animals that people want to eat or some strange
reasons or for some obvious reason.
I understand people not eating cats and dogs.
For instance, I have this story of a friend.
He was traveling in China and, and they come to this village and there were
these dogs with the leash and he goes like, oh, puppy, puppy, puppy.
And everybody was looking at him like, dude, what the fuck are you doing?
Like, because he was playing with the dogs that were going to be
cooked in the next few hours.
And so like, you don't do that.
It's not like this kind of things.
Like, but where to draw the line?
What's the, probably if I wouldn't eat something, it would be more for.
Ethical or ecological reasons than any other reason, you know, like, uh, let's
say I was once offered total eggs and I was like, no way, I'm not going to eat
that, you know, like just for ecological reasons, but that that's the only reason.
Otherwise I would have no problem with, with.
Turtle legs, you know, like, it also depends on the context.
This was in the middle of the jungle and these were probably not sustainable.
That's sustainably sourced.
So that context.
Yeah, that's the thing.
No, and as there's also a health risk, right?
It's like if you eat turtle eggs in the middle of the jungle, you know, I mean,
I have to admit, I've eaten turtle eggs before, you know, I didn't feel
particularly bad about it, but, um, I think like it's, it's a really difficult
question with this, like, first of all, I would say that you draw the line when
there's like, um, there's a sustainability aspect that's wrong or that's, um, or
this, you know, a certain cruelty involved, right?
Or when it just kind of like it, um, it goes against you, uh, against your, you
know, your feeling, right?
But this is such a difficult topic because it's fully, it's 100% culturally.
Uh, lured, right?
So for example, in Western culture, you know, we find the idea of eating
insects, like really repulsive, right?
While there are vast amounts of people and loads of countries where eating
insects is completely normal.
And, um, it's, it's very, very interesting because like, I always
like, I always thought the comparison between stuff like, for example, a
grasshopper, right?
Grasshopper kind of like, if you tell anybody here, like in Europe to eat a
grasshopper, they'd be like, Oh no, why that's disgusting.
I'm kind of like, what makes a grasshopper different than a shrimp?
You know, they're quite similar actually.
Yeah.
They're super similar.
And I'm like, look, grasshoppers super sustainable.
They're like 10 times more sustainable to farm than cattle, than beef.
Um, they provide a huge amount of protein.
Like they are like very flavorless.
It's not like they have a bad flavor or anything.
They're just like, they're kind of like, like tofu doesn't have a very strong
flavor as a soybean flavor as grasshoppers have a grasshopper flavor, right?
But like, they're not like, it's not like they taste bad.
So it's just a learned, a learned habit.
It's cultural.
Yeah, for sure.
Like I've seen hundreds of surveys of the perception of insects,
specifically in Spain and Spaniards won't eat insects.
No matter if you make it into like a paste and make a mayonnaise out of it.
So you don't see the insect anymore.
It's just the base protein for that emulsion.
Anyway, if they know their crickets inside, they won't have it.
And I was actually looking into, what are the origins of this ghost?
Because usually these things, if you don't eat it, it's because
you perceive them as disgusting.
And most of the time this ghost comes from a relationship between what
you're seeing and death actually.
Like if you see something that you associate with death, it could be poison.
It could be, or things that don't usually go together.
Like, I don't know, pedophilia or this really disgusting, you know, things
that don't go together or that are related to death are the origins of forbidden foods.
Like insects in Europe, probably at some point people died because
they were eating insects, probably pork and Jewish, Muslim, and even
some Christian traditions is forbidden.
And if I remember, it really impressed me when I was traveling in South America
and getting to know different indigenous cultures and most of them don't eat
mushrooms and it's probably because of the same reason, because there wasn't
a culture of eating mushrooms.
The homo sapiens arrived to America around 15,000 years ago.
So there probably hasn't been as much learning time to develop like a mushroom
eating culture as it has been in Europe, for example, or Asia for that matter.
But for me, that's really interesting.
Why it's very unusual to find traditional mushroom eating cultures, at least
in the Amazonian, for instance.
That is really interesting.
And I think it makes like total sense, you know, like it makes total sense.
Like it's like a very natural evolution, you know, and then also, you know, like,
um, like apart from that aspect, like the survival aspect, you know, also just
the sort of habit of things, you know, like it makes me kind of think of, um,
Japan and dairy, you know, like if you present, like, I mean, nowadays it's
different because, um, because there's, there's a more sort of international
appreciation for things that are outside of your culture, but you know, cheese
used to be like a really like horrible idea to a lot of Japanese people, you
know, because they don't come, like, there's not a big dairy culture in Japan.
Yeah.
It's like rotten curd milk.
Like why would you eat that?
And even if you add some green fungus to it, like in blue cheese, why would
you eat that, you know?
Absolutely.
Yeah.
And then if you step a little bit out of your, out of your view, out of your
perception, like for example, in, in, uh, you know, in my case, like a European
person, you know, it's kind of like, well, cheese is delicious, but you step out of
it and you look at it, what it is, you know, you're like, yeah, like I can see
how that that's actually like a really weird thing.
And that's why it's kind of like, why do I look at a shrimp and think it's
delicious, like it looks delicious, even when it's raw, because I have, like, I
grew up with it and I have this like ingrained in me that it's delicious
because I've experienced it being delicious.
As just as somebody from Thailand might look at a grasshopper and be like, oh,
it looks delicious because he's used to eating it roasted up with loads of
lemongrass and galangal and chili, you know, like that's, that's fucking delicious,
you know?
And yeah, it's important to, I think it's super important to step out of like your
point of view and look at these things for what they are.
But then again, there's some foods where it's kind of like, I don't know how far
I need to step out of my, uh,
Which ones for instance?
Well, like, uh, there's this thing, you know, in Asia, it was like super viral,
you know, where people eat like live octopus or like live fish, you know?
Yeah, I've heard about that.
That you, you feel like the, the suction cups of the octopus sticking to your
tongue while you eat it?
I think, you know, I believe that there's two types of these dishes.
One is where you have a raw fish that's actually dead and then you add like lime
juice and lemon, and it just makes the tentacles contract cause the fish is so
fresh.
And then I think there's, um, the ones where they actually keep it alive, which
I think is really messed up.
Well, you want me, you want me to get into forbidden domains of food and go into
the really dark side of food.
Of course, that's what we're here for.
So I was, I was dating this nurse and she worked like in emergency rooms, which
is actually where you get to see the worst of society and the dumbest people
arriving there for whatever reason.
So like internally, like in their locker room talk, they had like what they
called the Darwin awards, which was like for people who just died stupidly,
natural selection, you know?
And there was like this one, a group of super smart people that bought, uh, live
squid, like baby squids.
And this guy ate the whole thing alive.
And so he ended up in the emergency room.
She had to operate him, open his throat, everything full of ink.
And you know, like, and the guy died and they, they call the, this was one of
the winners of the Darwin awards, but then they also had the Venus awards,
which is even more dark.
Uh, so it's like stupid sexual things where you end up in an emergency room.
So, and there was like this really dark story when she tells me that these
were like grandpas, like male above 60, 70 years old, and they were for some
reason use always the same apple variety, like a golden apple, and you
know, use it as a, how to say this, like as a, um, the older substitute, so to
say, and so they would stick the apple inside a, a grocery plastic bag.
And when they tried to take it out, the plastic bag would break and the apple
would stay inside and they ended up in an emergency room.
And for some reason, this was like many old people using the same
apple and the same technique.
So she had this theory that there has to be like an underground crazy.
I'm like elderly people and the funniest thing is she tells me like, at some point
there were like putting, you know, anesthesia to a guy, like to bring him
to sleep and he was like, Oh, by the way, I was just walking in my old car and I
fell down, please mister, no need to explain.
It's all good.
What?
That's crazy.
Yeah.
Well, if you were talking about taboo uses of food, does that fit into the
topic?
I think it still does.
Right?
No, it does.
I mean, like, why an apple?
I wonder if there's like an apple based, you know, sex cult somewhere.
Ah, maybe, maybe.
Yeah.
I think that the more, one of the most fucked up, um, taboo foods.
And I don't even know if that's real.
I guess it is, but because it's in many movies, it's like this life monkey brain
thing.
Yeah.
I mean, um, yeah.
And it's like a tied into the center of the table and you're spawning the brain
out while you're drinking champagne and having a talk.
I've, I've honestly never seen that or heard about that apart from like in
movies.
I wonder if it's real.
I hope not.
Hannibal Lecter used to do something like that, right?
With humans and it was inspired like, I can expect that.
I mean, I really can't expect that maybe not today anymore, but I mean, we're a
horrible species.
It's not no wonder that somebody would do that at some point.
We can be a horrible species.
Yeah, that's true.
I can definitely see people doing that.
I hope it's not like an actual thing that, that it's been done before.
I don't doubt.
I feel like there's not a lot of things that human beings haven't done to each
other or to other living things.
But, uh, but yeah, but yeah, Hannibal Lecter did do that in the Red Dragon.
I think it was, or was it?
Yeah, I think so.
So where he, uh, sexed the brain, I think we talked about this already.
He fries it up with butter and capers.
It's a very nice, it's a very nice scene.
Yeah.
Caper apples that he like neatly cut and then put into the, into the copper pan.
Another taboo food would be fetuses and all its kinds or fertilized eggs.
Have you seen that?
Where you have like a duck egg and it's the embryo inside the egg still and you
eat it.
Yeah, I have seen that I've, I've never had it.
And I mean, I don't, there's not a lot of things, but I'm sort of like,
oh, I won't eat that.
And that's also not one of the things.
Like if I had it in front of me in the, in the setting, I would try it, but that
really kind of gives me like a little bit of sort of like, I just don't get it.
And I also don't get what is it that you eat.
It's like, it's like unborn birds.
Like that's just what, like just with this, all its bones and stuff.
I don't really see what appeal is, you know, is it.
The way it's prepared, the fragrance, like what is it?
Yeah, no idea.
No idea.
Maybe only the fetish of doing that, you know?
Yeah.
But then again, you know, it's kind of like, well, look at European culture.
What about suckling pigs?
You know?
Yeah.
I mean that that's fucked up.
That's fucked up.
Actually.
It's like, ah, baby, that juice has hot milk.
Like, it's like really evil, you know?
It's just been born.
It's barely, it's, its eyes haven't even opened properly.
Yeah, exactly. It's still sleeping.
On the grill.
Into the oven.
But to be, to be, to be fair, suckling pigs are really delicious, man.
Yeah, man.
I hate, I hate that it's such a cruel thing, you know, because I don't work with suckling pigs.
I don't cook suckling pigs, you know, I would never really like order a suckling pig for myself or like, you know, like for yous, cooking it in a restaurant or something.
But they are really fucking delicious.
Well, we mentioned like fertilized eggs, but what about this super little birds like Ortolan or this little things?
There is even a protocol to eat Ortolans that you cover, you cover your face like with a veil of a napkin or something.
So people don't watch you put like the whole bird in your mouth to suck the meat out and then they take the whole skeleton out of your mouth.
You know, like, I don't know which bird you're talking about actually.
Well, that's, I remember one, one Anthony Buren's book, I think Raw or something about Raw is the title.
That's the first episode he tells about this.
And, and yeah, it's even in France, it's like at the bootleg where you need to know someone to get to eat this bird.
But I mean, like hunting birds in general, like the little, like the really little ones or a lot of people that's like a big deal to eat that.
Yeah. I mean, you know, to be honest for me too, you know, like wood pigeons.
I mean, I don't know if they count as like a little bird, but example, but for example, in the UK, there's snipe, which I'm sure you've seen before the ones with the really long, long beak.
Big fella, we call them here.
Yes, exactly.
Yeah.
And they're really small.
I mean, they're delicious and they're delicacy, you know, and I mean, you know, we eat them like, and often they're served in like really good restaurants.
Where you get you, or for example, if Faberkin did it like this also, where you take the head and you like, you like, you roast the whole bird and you take the head, you split it in half down the beak and you serve like a part of the head with the brain.
Yeah. I had, I just had that just a few days ago and the, the Wakan and, and Guadaluampur, we had the pigeon as one of the courses and they would serve the whole head.
Yeah.
Well, that's also something like brains in general and this kind of things. Eyes for some people, tongue, all of these things are taboo for a lot of people.
All the awful, yeah. All the awful.
And I wonder also why that is, because I mean, that is, it does an interesting question to raise because like, why is awful so looked down upon?
I mean, now is it a trend thing?
I feel like it might only be a trend thing, like how, you know, for example, Sturgeon, right? Like talking like in Germany, Sturgeon used to be a very sought after fish.
And nowadays, nobody wants it anymore. Everybody's like, oh, Sturgeon, you know, but it's a, it's a very delicious fish.
Like there's nothing wrong with it, you know, and I feel like cultures just go through these trends where things go up and down and up and down and up and down.
And they go from peasant food to like high society food to court food and like empire food, you know, and then back and forth like sweet, sweet bread, you know?
Yeah, I guess like also what makes a food taboo is not only disgust, but also like ignorance, lack of knowledge.
I mean, I've seen people that for them is disgusting medium rare meat because they have never tried it and they grew up having just well done meats.
And it's just disgusting to see something red or see blood. Well, what about blood in general?
Yeah, I mean, pure blood, you know, that I can understand because for us, it's obviously like, you know, it's like, it's very similar to our blood, right?
Like, and just seeing blood obviously triggers something in you.
I read this biography of Sugar Ray Robinson, who was probably the greatest boxer of all times.
I mean, if you see like the record of this guy, let's say Mohammed Ali in all of his life, he fought like 30 fights, something like that.
This guy fought like 150, you know, like it's really exaggerated, like the record of this guy.
So I read his biography and there's a point where he's, you know, like the face off before the fight where you meet for a press release and this and that.
And maybe there is like a dinner in a fancy hotel or something.
So and the guy to intimidate his rival, he ordered from the kitchen to bring him a full glass full of blood.
You know, like next to the tray of a steak, the blood that stays there, yeah, put that in a glass and send it to the table.
And he was just drinking it while he was talking to the guy. Oh yeah, really. Look, look, look, look.
It's intimidating the guy.
That's really funny. But like, you know, like it's not, for a lot of people it's kind of like, oh my God.
But if, for example, you know, if you talk to old school butchers and old school butcher apprentices, you know, they talk about their apprenticeship and about slaughter days, you know, when you would slaughter an animal, it would be very normal to have a glass of blood.
Of course. Yeah.
Yeah. Just warm, straight from the animal.
And I mean, and also doing black pudding and this kind of elaborations, you know, you get to see a lot of blood.
It's a lot of blood. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, like if you've ever made like black pudding and stuff like that, you know, like blood sausage, all that sort of stuff, you know, there's variations of this like all over the place.
And A, it's like for me, it's so delicious. Like I love that stuff. It's like I can't get enough of it. You know, super, super tasty.
But also, you know, like from the, like with this awful and blood kind of like thing, where people are often so old at the idea of using this.
But I'm like, man, from a sustainability point of view, it's like, it's amazing. You know, you use everything, the blood, every organ.
And it's not like it has a bad taste, you know, it's just the idea of it. Right.
And I think also just like culturally, that it's kind of like you have a little bit of a different relationship to these sorts of things because we're a little bit too detached.
This like comes into like modern days because I don't think that peasants in the dark ages would be like, oh, it's hard. No, sorry. I don't want it.
Right. We're so detached from reality, from like death and slaughter and where animals come from and all that sort of stuff that it's just kind of lost and it's a very privileged place to be.
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