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Hi everyone, welcome to Pot Luck Food Talks. Today we have a special live episode, live
from Berlin. Berlin make some noise. So this is our episode number 52, which means we have
a whole year behind us. And before we start, we wanted to tell a little bit the story of
Podlog, how it started. It actually started with just a call with Xander, who is just
entering the room. And we were talking about what could we do to travel and eat for a living
in the next five years or so. So he came up with the idea. Just the day next, the logo
was ready with a cheap logo site on the internet. And just the day afterwards, we made our first
episode, which was the Spanish tortilla. Yeah, exactly. And that's kind of just really sort
of cowboyness of like spontaneous episodes kind of carried on throughout the whole of
last year, you know, just trying to fit in episodes into our work schedule, you know.
And that's basically what we're going to be doing today, you know, we're just kind of
Eric's literally arrived fresh off the boat, stranded in Munich for how long? I mean, all
night. Yeah, like I had a three hour sleep. I lost my flight. I almost lost my voice this
morning. So it doesn't always sound, it doesn't always sound too sexy, you know, it's like
normally it's really high pitched. But not today. No, no, no. So I'm kind of like, like
the idea was to talk about whatever food related topics that we could talk for 10 minutes,
20 minutes. In this case, it's going to be an hour talking about sandwiches, things we
like about sandwiches or sandwich experiences we've had so far. And since we started with
the tortillas, the Spanish omelette as the first episode, we thought we might start also
with with the Spanish omelette as the first sandwich. One second. An issue, technical
issue here just to
Damn, we really should have checked that instead of drinking coffee.
Working man. Why is it not working? Oh, there we go. Okay. We might just click.
Okay. What's the deal with tortilla sandwiches?
Well, I mean, it's like, you know, we talked about tortilla in one of our episodes and
tortilla is such a quintessential Spanish food, you know, it's like you find it everywhere.
You find it in, you know, most sort of like pincho and tapas bars. And, you know, one
of the like most sort of like easy, convenient, comfortable foods to go to in Spain is just
like having a tortilla, putting it in a slice of bread, because that's basically, you know,
I mean, the quintessence of a sandwich is that you have a vessel that you can put food
in so that you can take it on the go. Right. I mean, you could take a piece of tortilla
just bare hand, I guess, you know, but, you know, a piece of bread is just kind of convenient.
And this is something you will find like in school cafeterias and all kinds of like on
a train station everywhere. It's like, like really a staple in Spain.
Yeah. And it's kind of like, you know, like why sandwich like an interesting topic, you
know, it's kind of like it's one of those things where you can go really in depth of
why it's interesting, because it's something that you find literally everywhere in the
world. It doesn't matter what food culture you go to, you always have a certain sort
of type of sandwich where you have this like aspect of convenience and on the go and sort
of like everyday nutrition. I mean, here we have the good old carb on carb, carb on carb
on protein, you know. Yeah, exactly. That's what I was going to
say like putting potatoes on a sandwich is kind of counterintuitive. But do you see that
like in Latin America, you see a lot of sandwiches with fries or these kind of things.
Yeah, yeah, for sure. I mean, you know, double carb is, you know, there's nothing wrong with
it. So another one is like, have you ever seen
a picture of the first burger? Because that's also a sandwich and it's probably the most
popular sandwich in the world. So it didn't look at all like the burgers we know today.
Yeah, yeah, totally. I mean, but then it's kind of like we get to the question sort of
what makes a sandwich a sandwich, right? It's sort of like at what point is a sandwich a
sandwich and at one point, isn't it? Is it the bread? Is it just the fact that you can
like take it in your hand, just eat it on the go?
Yeah, that's something we can discuss. I have some slides to talk about that. About the
first burger, I wanted to mention like, it has nothing to do with Hamburg. At some point
in the States, they started making what they called hamburger steak, which is basically
a buletta. And someone came up with the idea of making the sandwiches and that they're
doing it just like the original one still today. So you can have the original burger,
which was with a square bread and a real thick patty. Nothing to do with the burgers we know
today. It's called a patty melt, no? Like if you
do it like that? I think, well, I don't know. I think patty
is in the UK and the burger, the patty you would call it burger.
No, but there is a type of sandwich where they make it exactly like that, which is called
a patty melt. It's specifically like that. It was sort of like toasted milk bread and
then like really sort of like smashed burgery with like very limited, because like burgers
are often so overloaded, you know, and the patty melt is just kind of like smashed meat,
cheese, onion, and like maybe some pickles and stuff on like toast.
It's funny because then you're like adding a new name for the original one, which is
strange, you know, same like with tomatoes. Tomatoes are tomatoes all around the world,
except Mexico, which is Kito Mate, and that's the original world, the original word, sorry.
So the rest of the people are just too lazy to add the G?
I guess, yeah. Or it was lost in translation somehow.
So the word sandwich comes from a nobleman from the 18th century. He was playing a card
game and he asked to get like a steak between two breads. And I mean, and he said he was
a genius. He was the first one in history to come up with that, which probably is not
the case, but the names stuck. And that's why all sandwiches are called sandwiches.
Of course. I mean, look at him, you know, he's like, he's like this aristocratic white
guy and he's like, I've got this amazing idea. Nobody's done before. Let's just name it after
myself. Right?
He's really proud of himself. Like many, many things like in the Western
culture. So let's break it into parts. Do you have like a favorite bread for sandwiches
in general or is it case dependent? I think, I don't know, like there's this whole
discussion of sort of like, you know, sourdough or not sourdough, there was this whole sourdough
like rave. And I feel like loads of people started making like grilled cheese sandwiches
and that sort of stuff with like this kind of country style sourdough. But I actually
think that for sandwiches, like moving away from this, like artisanal bread is actually
better, you know, not to talk about things like, I don't know, bimbo bread, you know,
but like, I don't know if you guys know the brand bimbo bread, you know, people from Latin
America and Spain and stuff, they will definitely know this, but this is like, it's like a brand
of like super soft artificial white bread. And it's like delicious. It's sweet, it's
soft, you know, and it's kind of like, I don't know, I don't want to chew, like I like sourdough,
but I don't want to chew a piece of sourdough for grilled cheese sandwiches. Yeah, I agree.
Like for sandwiches, the most gourmet thing I would come off is like a good brioche, which
is like a very buttery bread. It has no water instead only eggs. It's actually kind of complicated
bread to, especially in the kneading process. It has so much butter that you have to add
it by parts as when you do a mayonnaise. So it's kind of like a sophisticated technique
to pull it off. And I think that's the most elevated thing I would use for a sandwich,
even also for a burger or different kinds of sandwiches. Yeah, I mean, like the thing
with brioche is that it's like very enriched, because it's like an enriched bread, which
means that you add loads of butter, you add loads of egg and milk and all that sort of
stuff. There's like two versions that I actually prefer. Like there's a thing called Hokkaido
milk bread, which is like less rich, but by the way that it's made, it's often made with
a in German, we would call it Kochstück, which is basically like flour that is cooked. So
like the gelatin in the flour, you cook it, the gelatin activates, you cool it down. And
when you add it into a dough, it's modifies the dough, you add more moisture, which makes
the crumb a lot softer and a lot more spongy. There's also a really nice Chinese recipe
is called Tangsou, Tangzu, something like that, where you do exactly that you basically
can just make a slurry out of flour and water, let that cool down and then mix it into your
dough. And it makes the whole thing like super fluffy, super soft. And you don't have to
add like so much butter or like oil or something like that to make the bread soft. That's actually
for me, that's like my favorite. Like a good sandwich bread I like and I found it out just
out of an accident. A restaurant we were working together, I had like a baguette in my prep.
So and I had some surplus dough, so I just put it in a baking form. And I let it like
over proof until it was really, really fluffy, much more than you would do with a baguette.
And that is already like a super good sandwich bread. You know, it's like an easy hack to
get like a bread that you can cut and use for the typical, you know, square sandwich
and much better than, you know, the ones you buy in the supermarket. Yeah, for sure. What
about condiments, sauces? Do you have any favorites, any musts that you would add to
a sandwich? No, not really. I mean, this is like such an infinite sort of world of like,
you know, possibilities. I mean, it can be anything. That's kind of the thing, you know,
it's like you go from like culture to culture to culture and you'll find like just the most
like the, you know, super, super different things. I don't know, like because I'm from
Central Europe, you know, I feel like butter is, you know, kind of quintessential. I feel
like when somebody makes like a piece of toast and they make a sandwich, they use something
like olive oil. It just kind of makes me, it makes me cringe, you know? Yeah, I agree.
There are things where olive oil is better, even some sandwiches. But yeah, butter is
like the protagonist here. I would also say mayo or mustard, not ketchup. Ketchup is not
my favorite, except for a burger. But like ketchup is a very controversial topic. Let's
give it to mayo and mustard. Mayo is like, I don't know why mayo became this like, this
like also quintessential sandwich component, you know, because like, I mean, you know more
about you want to quickly delve into the history of mayonnaise because I can quickly explain
it. So actually the word comes from an island in the Balearic Islands. It's called Maon.
And this island was conquered by the French and they were actually looking for, they found,
they were cooking alioli, which is the predecessor of mayonnaise. It's not that someone added
garlic to mayonnaise. It's that someone took garlic out of alioli to make mayonnaise. So
the French brought it to France and at some point the Spanish imported it back to Spain.
And so that's the reason why in Spain, a lot of people say maonesa instead of mayonesa.
But they like, it got like translated back into Spanish, the way the French were saying
it, mayones, into mayonesa. And yeah, that's kind of the story behind it.
The French fucked it up, you mean.
Do you have any favorite mayo?
I don't know. I mean, like, cupy mayo obviously is very nice. You know, it's, you know, if
you add MSG to something, it always makes it like a little bit nicer.
It also has like Japanese mustard and some other ingredients.
Does it?
Yeah, yeah, for sure.
I feel like maybe they just like add a little bit so they can put more on ingredient list
to like take away from the MSG component, you know, because that's really what makes
it tasty.
Yeah, whatever, whatever has a kid cartoon on its label and it's from Asia, it has MSG
for sure.
I mean, can we talk about it? Why is there a baby on the mayonnaise bottle? You know,
I think that's really misleading.
Yeah, but there is another one. It's called Healthy Boy brand. You know that one?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
It's also like this high MSG sauces.
Yeah, but he's a healthy boy, you know, he's chubby. He's like, it's like, you know, it's
like what the yellow bean curd thing, right? The yellow, the fermented yellow bean sauce.
That's healthy boy, right?
Yeah, exactly.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean,
I mean, I love that shit.
Beans are healthy, you know.
What about mustard?
I mean, we're in the land of mustard, you know. Mustard, mustard is cool, man. Like,
I feel like people really like mustard is really underrated. Here, like we have more
of a culture like in Germany of mustard, you know, you can go to a supermarket and you can
buy.
20 different types.
Yeah, yeah, exactly. And like different strengths, etc. Like I got really cross one time when
I was living in the UK and I was doing a catering and the whole.
British mustard is horrible.
I wouldn't say that I wouldn't go that far. Coleman's mustard definitely has its place,
I think. But like I remember the host of the catering, she was sort of like, oh yeah, like
blah, blah, blah mustard. She was like nice and spicy mustard, not like your German mustard.
And I was like, excuse me. I got seriously offended because I was like, man, you go to
any supermarket, you have like tons of mustard, you know, and like also like really like here
and in Belgium and in France, you have these like old mustard mills that still ferment
the mustard like properly, like different chunkiness, you know, it's like stuff like
blackberry mustard and like blueberry mustard, which is super delicious.
Yeah, I've also seen one with figs or this kind of thing, dried figs and the mustard
or black olives. Yeah, there are different fruits. Super nice. I recently saw like a
headline in the New York Times, which I thought it was really funny. It said something about
there's a scarcity of the young mustard in Colombia. And it says it would leave the eaters
a tangy void in their hearts and sandwiches. Yeah, I mean, you know, they must be passionate
about mustard, man. I don't know if I've ever felt a tangy void in my heart. I mean, not
mustard related anyway.
Maybe, maybe. What about the veggies? Do you have any preference on vegetables for your
sandwiches? No, not really. I mean, like when I think of vegetables, I think more of pickles.
I think pickles are really like, they're kind of quintessential to sandwiches, you know,
but like veggies, that's kind of like a seasonal thing, you know, like whatever, whatever's
around. I don't generally like the sandwiches that are like overloaded with vegetables,
you know, instead of like, you know, unless it's just like a purpose, like a BLT, you
know, BLT for me is like one of the nicest sandwiches ever. And like the best BLTs, like
often they're like overloaded with bacon. But if you have really nice like hurled tomatoes
and really, really delicious lettuce and then mayo, super quintessential in the BLT, and
then a layer of like crispy, really, really crispy bacon. I mean, that's one of the best
sandwiches ever.
Yeah, I agree. Yeah, I think it's something that shouldn't be abused. This sandwich is
really with a whole salad is like too much. And you want just like a fresh touch. Even
if you're using something really dominant, like a rocket, you just want to put a few
leaves on not like a big bunch that takes the whole thing.
Yeah. But then again, I also feel like, you know, people often feel compelled, like they
have to add something like this sort of like, they look at a sandwich and it's sort of like,
man, should I add some lettuce, you know, I feel like that is like lettuce leaf that's
peeking out on the side is missing. But sometimes you also have to just kind of be brave enough
to just leave the lettuce out, you know, just let the sandwich be like not every sandwich
needs, you know, needs like a handful of vegetables.
And what about cooked vegetables or roasted vegetables?
Yeah, super nice. I mean, like right now, I don't know, like, I don't know what you
guys are thinking, but sort of like the sandwiches that we're talking about, we're kind of thinking
about like slices of bread with like filling inside. But I mean, like, there's like loads
of other sandwiches, like think of a pita bread, you know, a pita bread filled of like
roasted vegetables is like one of the most delicious things ever.
Yeah, I really like this escalivada, which is this kind of roasted ratatouille from from
Catalonia. And that on a loaf of bread, that's that's a sandwich, maybe some very high quality
and choice on top of that. That's it.
That's amazing. Yeah, super nice.
So and you mentioned pickles, do you have any favorite pickles or recommendations around
pickles?
Well, I mean, the OG of pickles is the pickle, right? That's why it's called a pickle. No,
like otherwise, it'd be called, you know, pickled cucumber, but it's called pickle for
a reason, right? Yeah, man, I mean, pickles is also one of these things that like I feel
like people have kind of forgotten what a good pickle is, because you just you just
used to these like shitty supermarket pickles. But like a good pickle, like whether it's
pickled or it's fermented, or it's like brined, like brined pickle cucumbers are amazing,
you know, when they're like properly properly brined with like a bit of dill and coriander
seeds and stuff, they're super delicious. So I mean, that's I think that is the most
important pickle.
I think the best I've had were were in America, I will get that later. But also like, easy
things are like jalapenos, or maybe just marinating onions in brine or, or in vinegar. And, you
know, that's like really simple things to add it to the next level.
Yeah, I think like, like Jewish cooking culture has a lot of really amazing pickle recipes,
like, actually, I was one of the like best pickles that I tried also. And it's also just
like beetroot pickle with like loads of grated horseradish. That is kind of like, it's more
like a relish really that you cook it down with like a little bit of creme fraiche. And
then you like keep it as like a pickle. It's more like a condiment, I guess. And that's
super delicious. That was like some smoked fish, you know, it's amazing because it's
like super if the beetroot the sweetness, you cut it with vinegar, and then you have
the spiciness from the horseradish. That's super, super nice. One of my favorites also
like, have you ever tried like green tomatoes? They're more like a thing in the US, but
in Mexico, right? Yeah, yeah, but like never really pickled, I think. But like, like I've
tried them fermented, and they're amazing, you know, often they need to stand for like
a year. But once they're done, and they're kind of like fermented fruit, they're so like
fruity and tart and they've got a super delicious like soft, but like, still like vegetabley
texture as super tasty.
I haven't had them like that. I had some in New Orleans, like green fried tomatoes, like
the movie. Yeah, yeah. That's like a completely different thing. What about spreads? Do you
add spreads to your to your sandwich?
Yeah, pretty much always. I feel like a dry sandwich is just sad, you know, like it's,
you know, it's, it's only so much butter you can add until it's like not dry anymore.
Yeah, cream cheese or avocado, this kind of thing. Yeah, all of that pesto, you know,
like, I mean, like the biggest one that I can think of is hummus, you know.
Ah, yeah, for sure.
Yeah, like a like a pita bread sandwich, you know, with like hummus, tahini, something
like that is, you know, like without that, it would just it would just be crap, you know,
it would just not be nice. Like, it's it's just as important as like, for me, it's just
as important as like the bread or the filling.
We haven't talked about sweet sandwiches. I'm not a big fan of like Nutella, peanut
butter of these kind of things or marmalades. What about you?
I am. I have I have some guilty pleasures with sweet sandwiches.
Okay, go on, go on. Talk about it.
I mean, I'm a big fan of PB&J sandwiches, you know, like, because it's just a winning
combination.
What's that? Like the peanut butter and marmalade?
And jelly. Yeah, peanut butter jelly. Yeah. Yeah. But if you have like a nice sort of
like, like crunchy peanut butter with like a nice like salt component, you know, like
super nice and rosy. But the salt is really quintessential. Then you have like a nice
jam. Like that's amazing. And I mean, you talked about Nutella. It's like I used to
make Nutella at home myself, you know, just like out roasted hazelnuts, which sounds super
fancy is something that you would do in COVID lockdown, I guess. But you should try it.
It's really, really nice. Also needs like a really good amount of sea salt to be nice.
But if you take that, and this is I mean, this is a little bit trashy, but like you
take like just shitty white bread, you add Nutella, and then you add slices of banana,
and then you put it into a then you put it into a sandwich press, you know, the ones
that like divide the sandwiches into little triangles. That's just like that's just that
shouldn't be allowed, you know, because you're like, I can't fuck you up, you know, a step
further, you know, David the hothead, the Basque chef, the super fat one who was a Martin
Verasategui is head chef for a while. Well, he's like this TV personality. He's also known
as Robin foot in Spain. That's terrible. Well, and he had this this special book called what
in Don Galas or something that like that, like, okay, really nasty bites. Yeah. And one was
Nutella with Chistora, which is kind of like a cool turd. Oh, my god. That's that's really
sacrilegious. I can't stand behind that. So what about sausages, cold cuts, apart from
Chistora without Nutella for it? Yeah, I mean, you know, and again, it's like, it goes hand
in hand, no, like, I mean, I grew up like I grew up in Spain. So it's especially like
where I grew up in the Canary Islands, we had these type of bocadillos, which are basically
sandwiches, but that were made in like, like a very particular kind of way. I think actually,
like now understanding it more, it like comes from the villainous, like from the Latin influence
of like Cubano's and stuff, where sandwiches are like really pressed, like on a plancha.
So really like planchado and kind of like squished super crispy on the outside. And
that's like, you know, I mean, this is called a pyjama or something like that. I don't know.
I mean, for me, they were just bocadillos. Okay. Yeah. And do you use this bread called
mollete that is very typical from the south of Spain? No, I mean, we like they would just
use like normal like the usual like white bread. Okay. Like softer kind of baguette.
Yeah, but going back to cold cuts, I think Europe, all over Europe, if you go to any
country in every different region that they have their own different types of sausages
or you know, like charcuterie, it's like a like a really rich culture in general. If
we talk about Germany or France or Spain, you know, completely different things. Italy
as well. Yeah, of course. But I guess it's like it goes like it makes sense, you know,
because like you have something that is like processed for you to keep, right? So like
that's what sausages kind of like a force like to preserve meat. So like all the stuff
that you don't eat, you make sausage that keep longer. And then you like, you know,
if you pack something for on the way, like if you're like, I don't know, shepherding
or whatever you do in the dark ages. I guess people still shepherd, you know, but like,
you know, you would take something that can keep, you know, so like you would put some
stuff in a bread, you know, cheese, the same thing. I mean, it's just kind of, you know,
it's just milk that you don't want to go to waste, you know, and then you just find a
way to work around that. And then like necessity becomes a technique and the technique gets
refined and refined. And it becomes part of the food identity and therefore the cultural
identity. I mean, I'm a super, since you mentioned cheese, I'm a super cheese lover, but I don't
get too complicated when it comes to sandwiches. Like a super good cheese. I actually want
to eat it almost without bread, you know, like a stinky French cheese that reminds you
of your nasty sockets, you know, but for a sandwich, I just want like something to buy
in the supermarket. What do you mean? Like, like American Kraft cheese or like what? Yeah,
like, I don't know, this one's already pre-sliced. I really like in Spain, you get a lot of goat
cheese in that format. And that's what you want for a sandwich or even a high quality
Emmental or something like that, that you slice yourself. I don't, I wouldn't use like, for
instance, I don't know, like a sticky, a stinky Camembert or something like that. Yeah, yeah,
for sure. I mean, like Spain does have like a really good selection of sliced cheeses.
Like, especially, I mean, if we talk about like cheese sandwiches, we have to talk about
grilled cheese sandwiches. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. I mean, it's crazy how people get a
grilled cheese sandwich like super wrong. I feel like it's just like bread and cheese,
you know, but like it's never really good. Right? Like, do you do you make real cheese
at home or? Not so much. I mean, I used to do well when I was a kid, but not lately.
No, I don't know. I don't anymore that much. But I went through a phase where I feel like
I made one every day. And it's kind of like with a fried egg. It's like if people think
that like frying an egg really nicely is really easy. You know, you just bang an egg into a pan,
but it's actually not, you know, not at all. I mean, it's not it is, but like, if you're like
weirdly obsessed with how things are cooked, then it's not really, you know, because it's kind of
like, well, the egg white cooks at a different speed than the egg yolk. And you don't want the
egg yolk to be raw. And you want it to be a little bit crispy on the bottom. And you want the egg
yolk to be just warm, but like without any gooey things, like without any gooey egg white on the
top. It's kind of like that with the grilled cheese sandwich. It's sort of like, all right,
you want the outside to be really toasted. You also want the heat to go to the very center of
the sandwich. So it's like melted through because like seriously, there's nothing more sad than
a grilled cheese sandwich that you cut into. And then there's like a chunk of un-melted cheese in
the center. You know, it's just super depressing. No? What a disappointment, no? It also came to
my mind when you were in Dubai, you were doing a lot of sando sandwiches, right? What's the deal
with sando sandwiches? I mean, sando is basically like just the like word that they use in Japan
for like a sandwich, you know, I mean, for these types of sandwiches. And again, there's sort of
like, is this Hokkaido milk bread? It's like very soft, squishy bread. And it got like very popular
over the last couple of years, especially with like these katsu cutlets. I mean, either sort of
like these pork cutlets that are breaded and fried. And then it's also very simple. It's usually like
served with this like bulldog sauce that you can buy in any like Asian supermarket. But traditionally
it's made out of like onions and apples that are cooked down and caramelized for a really,
really long time. So it's kind of like a barbecue sauce, sort of like sweet and tangy.
And yeah, they become super popular. I mean, also because, you know, they just look cool,
like you cut them, you cut the crust off, you cut them into these perfect like rectangles.
They just look like visually really striking, especially if you have like a piece of wagyu
that's like perfectly cooked. There's loads of places like opening up these last years that just
do katsu sandos. Yeah, it's becoming a thing, right? Yeah, it really is. Yeah. This is also
the bread you were mentioning that has a little bit of milk, but it's also like a sandwich bread.
Yeah, it has some milk, but then it has some milk powder in it also. And I mean,
there's different ways of making it, you know? I mean, like the Hokkaido milk bread recipes that
I use, like you take, you divide the dough and you roll it up like individually. Sort of like
you stretch it out, you roll it up one way and you then you flip it 90 degrees and you do the same
thing. And what you then get is like this tall brioche looking loaf. But when you cut into it
and you look at the crumb, you can basically like pull the crumb apart in these like long
feathery stripes. I don't know if you've ever seen anything like that, but it's got this really,
really lovely texture. And that's because, you know, you create the gluten and then you layer
the gluten in a certain way, and then you let it prove up and it kind of bakes into it into itself.
But any sort of like white bread, but like I wouldn't use brioche for that because it's too
sweet and too rich. Yeah, I agree. Yeah, like a regular sandwich bread or maybe a tramazzini or
something like that. A what? Tramazzini? What's that? Like an Italian bread for sandwiches for
paninis. I don't know. I've never heard of this bread. What's it like? Is it just like a white?
Yeah, but I mean, just like what you mentioned. I just know trapezini, which is like these little
pizza triangles. No, these ones are like super long usually. Okay, but you know the pizza triangles
that I'm talking about? This guy came up with them. He like baked, I think that fried actually was
making pizza frittata and he was making these like little shapes that he then like deep fried and he
cuts one part of it off and because the dough is so leavened, there's like a pocket and then he
fills it with like meatballs and bolognese and stuff like that. Have you never seen that? No.
It's like a big fast food thing in Italy. Like he's got like 20, 30, 40, 50, 60, 60, 60, 60,
he's got like 20 locations and like, you know. But what about also this crazy trash food culture
in the States that they do like deep fried pizza inside a burger and the whole thing
battered again and fried again? You know, like there are these art books that are just focused
on that. Yeah, I don't know. You do know. You do. Don't pretend you don't. I remember once we were
in Buck and Breck and your friend were showing us one of these books with this ultra trashy food.
Yeah, I don't know. I don't know what to say about that. I try to close my eyes and ignore that part
of the world, you know, that's the abyss of culinary creations, you know. But that brings
me to that story. Like didn't you tell me the story about your friend here in Berlin who was like...
Yeah, there are actually some witnesses here of that story. Yeah, like, well, this was in Prenzlau
back there was this, you know, this Donner place that there are a Donner and in front of it you
have like a pizza place, right? And I have this friend that there was, he was in Berlin just for
three days and he was obsessed to have like, like ask a margarita and to have all the Donner
ingredients and to roll the margarita. And they were like, no, we can't do that. So they called
kind of like the owner who was at the pizza, who was on the back and he came out, okay, let's do it.
Like really motivated. So they did the margarita, put all the ingredients on top and then they said
we're not taking responsibility to roll it. So you have to do it yourself. It was like a huge
thing, man. It was really like, you know, like the diameter of a soccer ball, like really big.
And it took like, I don't know, like we had to call someone to help us eat the whole thing
because it was too much. You can't eat it and you just leave it in the fridge and you just slice
slices of it like a deli ham, you know, it's just like, that's some real Frankenstein shit.
Yeah, that's really funny. So tell us about what's the sandwich you're offering today?
Today, yeah. Yeah, as we are talking about sandwiches, we thought we'd make some sandwiches,
you know, yeah. So we've made some fried chicken sandwiches, you know, because I mean, that's
something that we really like to eat, you know, I mean, it's kind of like a craving. They're going
to be very simple. It's just like buttermilk marinated chicken with like a little bit of like
an Asian sort of influence. It's like a Szechuan kind of togarashi sort of seasoning and like a
shiso ranch dressing. We've also got a vegetarian option, which is like a mapo tofu. Oh, look,
hey, you've got it ready. Oh, sorry. I'm not supposed to talk about the pictures. Yeah, mapo tofu,
which is like, yeah, please. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah. Heard. Yeah, mapo tofu, which is like a
Chinese tofu stew. It's basically tofu that you braise in like Chinese bolognese, if you want to
call it that, like with like ground pork. But today, like it's totally veggie. It's just
marinated in this like spicy chili marinade, also crispy fried with the same with the same garnish.
Nice. Yeah. Nice. So you lived in Mexico for how long? One year, two years? Almost two years. Yeah,
almost two years in Mexico City. What's the deal with tortas? Man, tortas. Yeah, tortas are sandwiches.
That's what they are, you know, but tortas are these like monstrous sandwiches. Like, I mean, a
torta in itself is basically just like, I mean, it's just kind of almost like a baguette, but it's
like softer. And then it's filled with, you know, usually like deli meats, you know, vegetables,
onion, cheese, and that. But the thing in Mexico is that they take it to like another level,
where these, as you know, this often happens in Mexico, when they just take things to the absolute
extreme, where these sandwiches just transform into these huge ginormous monstrosities of
sandwiches in the best way possible. I would tell you all over Latin America, Venezuela, we have
something similar with burgers. It's like who makes the biggest burger with multi-ingredients
competition. Yeah. Yeah. What I liked in Mexico is that like you have these places, they have
then like 15 different types of tacos, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like
tortas that they make, and they all get like specific names. It's like, I can't remember any
of the tortas once, but they had it for tacos as well, where there was this one taco stand who
called their tacos like a specific name all the time. And there was like one that I really liked,
which is called El Abogado, which means the lawyer. And it was a lot of tongue and just a little bit
of brain, which was kind of funny. But like, you know, one thing that I absolutely didn't get,
because I love tortas, and they're sort of like, I mean, it's the kind of food that you, you look
at it and you're like, oh, let's get a torta, you know, let's just get a torta. And then you always
kind of like regret it afterwards, because you just destroyed. But like what I really didn't get
were the tortas ahogadas. Have you ever tried one of those? No, no, I've never tried tortas. I
haven't been in Mexico. So it's basically a torta, which I mean, you can only imagine this like big
fuck sandwich. And then it's basically like soaked in a like a tomato and chili salsa until it's
like completely soaked through. And then you obviously gets wrapped up, you take it away and
you open it. It's basically like this sloppy soaked up like bread and filling mess. Which I'm sure
it's delicious, but like I never understood it's like taking, it's like taking a I guess people do
do that. Now that I think of it taking a hamburger and dipping it in gravy. Yeah, people actually do
that now. Yeah, okay. There is a Chicago sandwich where they do exactly that. Yeah, they dip the
sandwich in the cooking juice. Yeah. And there is even like a position to eat that sandwich with
your elbows in a certain position. So you don't make a mess out of yourself. That sounds really
culty. I don't know. I've never seen that. But like, I mean, that I guess like if you have like
the dipping thing on the side and you dip it in you eat it like that makes sense to me, I would do
that. But like imagine taking the whole like a whole burger and having like a bucket of gravy
and just dunking the whole thing in and then wrapping it up and it's like, all right, there you go.
It is something like that. It's something like that. Yeah. What about the donors here where
they heat the bread with the directly with to the species? I don't know. Like for me, that's like a
sign that you are at a good place. You know, it's like when they when they do that, it's like,
all right, they like, because they take care of it because they don't have to make sense. You know,
the fat stripping out, they're like, you know, just kind of like, that's good. Yeah, I agree.
100%. So my favorite sandwich and I've said many times that this would be like my last supper for
sure. It's just like a good Iberico just for ingredients, Iberico, good olive oil, good
tomatoes and good bread. That's it. Super simple. And for me, it's also the best way to eat like good
ham, which by the way, we can discuss about oil, maybe Italian might be better than Spanish, but
ham, Spanish ham has just no competition. My opinion. Yeah, no, absolutely. That's true. But
this is the thing, like, you know, panto maca is like one of the most delicious things ever.
And for people who don't know, I mean, it's literally just a type of Spanish white bread is
called pan cristal, which is like a baguette, but kind of like more open, like the the crumbs
more open and it gets super, super crispy. You toast it as a very, actually, we have to be careful.
It's very controversial topics for Spanish people, you know, garlic or no garlic or like, you know,
like just brushing the tomato grating tomato on the side, because like, honestly, people say,
just brush the tomato on top. No, but also like, just using a garlic clove is putting it just
around, just scrape it on top. Exactly. Yeah. So you just scrape it on top, little bit of like olive oil,
and then you just usually you cut a tomato in half. You don't cut it from like, you don't cut it
vertically, you have to cut it horizontally. It's very, very important, actually. And then you just
brush the tomato over this crispy bread, and it soaks up all the juices and you just add some sea
salt, some olive oil, and that's it. But it's one of the most delicious things ever. And I think if
people haven't tried it, like, it sounds so weird. You take a crispy piece of bread, you rub some
stuff on it, and then it's like tasty, like it's, but it's so good. It makes me crazy when I see
people having like a super good ham and adding mozzarella to it and pepper and different things.
It's like, no, don't do it. Yeah, that's terrible. Yeah. The other Spanish sandwiches, have you tried
sobrasada? Yeah, of course. It's amazing. You know, it's basically like chorizo spread, right? Something
like that. Yeah, it's yeah, exactly. It's like a sausage, but then you open it and soft inside and
you just kind of like spread it on bread. I mean, it's insanely delicious. Yeah. And sobrasada with
like a good cheese and caramelized onions, a super typical combination. It's sobrasada with honey,
actually. That's really nice. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, earlier we were talking about like wooden nutella
with chistora. I mean, that's wrong. No, it's not, man. You have to open your mind. There's only so
much that I can, there's only so much space for my mind to open. But yeah, sobrasada with honey and
then a little bit of salt, you know, it's amazing. Yeah, but there is also dark side, you know,
like sobrasada comes also from the Balearic Islands and they have these things called ensaimadas,
which is, you know, like a sweet thing. There are ensaimadas with sobrasada and that I don't get,
you know, it's like putting chorizo to your cinnamon rolls. I don't know. I can kind of see
it to be honest with you. Like I can kind of see it. Yeah, I can kind of see it. I mean, I tried it
and I was like, I don't get this. And everybody was like, ensaimada with sobrasada. Yeah. You have
to be really careful with these like sweet and savory combinations. Like it goes from sort of
like, oh, that's really like quite smart to like, what the fuck are you doing? Get away from the
sandwich place. Really quickly. Yeah. And then also in San Sebastian, they have this mini sandwiches
that are pinches that are baguettes, the size of a biscuit with different combinations. Yeah.
There's a famous one. It's called the completo, which is tuna belly, piparras, which is the local
pickle chili, mayo and anchovies. And man, it's super nice. You know, I've never tried that
actually. Yeah, it's called completo. And another one I really liked, it was like, they call it,
how was it like, morsee, chorimorsee or something like that. It was half chorizo, half morsella,
like chorizo and black pudding. So it looked like a black chorizo. That was also really nice.
What about cheap calamari sandwiches? Man, that's a quintessential. Like if you like,
it's, yeah, it's, you know, I mean, what is that? You know, it's, you look at it as like,
it's just like a piece of bread with like fried calamari in it. But honestly, it's like a can,
like you're out of the day at the beach, you know, you buy like a, when botellones used to
still be a thing, you know. Yeah. For me, this is synonymous with beach or Madrid. Yeah. But you
know, you buy, you buy like a liter, one and a half liter bottles, whatever it is of San Miguel,
and you get a calamari sandwich with, with aioli. It has to be with aioli. You know, it's amazing.
One of the best things in life. In Venezuela, we have this typical pork sandwich that is called
pernil. It's one of my favorites. So it has a lot of pork, but I have like a really funny story.
When I was in Bolivia, my friend Diego Prado was visiting. He wanted, he had some lists of places
to go. And there was this super legendary in Bolivia, they call it sandwich, the chola,
which is basically a pork leg sandwich. But the story with this one, there were two sisters,
like vendor spots in the street. And the first one had like a long queue, people waiting to
have the sandwich. So it was like a really, really nice sandwich. We actually got to try them both
because we were the last one in the first queue. So once it ended, everybody turned into the second
one. Once the first one was sold out. So everybody went to the first one first and the second. So we
tried the first one. It was amazing. The second one was not so amazing. Good, but not that crazy.
Right. And then we had the story that these two women were sisters that had like a fight and
hadn't talked to each other like in 10 years. And they have been doing that for the last 10 years,
like this sandwich beef in the middle of the street. And they must have the best beef. I mean,
pun intended. But like imagine the tea behind that. It sounds like a telenovela. Yeah, Bolivian
telenovela, cholita telenovela. What about Nordic countries? Smorbrot? Yeah, I mean,
Smorbrot also, it's like, there's like such a cool culture like behind it. I mean, honestly,
Danish rye bread is one of my favorite breads ever. It's like if it's made right. It's so delicious,
you know. It's, I mean, super dense. It's like full of whole grain and full of seeds. And then
basically, I mean, like that's a country of open faced sandwiches, right? It's kind of like,
like earlier, you know, we're talking about pan tomaka and stuff like that. It's kind of like,
is it a sandwich? You know? Exactly. It's like, well, they call it open faced sandwich. Yeah.
This is something you eat with fork and knife, which is against the rules of a sandwich.
That's true. Yeah, totally. So is it a sandwich? But I mean, but like the content wise,
it's really interesting what it has. Yeah, it always had some pickles, some cured meats or fish,
always a cream. But like they go crazy with it. Because like, especially nowadays, where they kind
of, because the Nordic countries are kind of a little bit dead, you know, in certain aspects,
like culinary wise, but like with like now it's obviously completely changed to the whole Nordic
food movement and stuff. Not to say that there wasn't good food there, but like there was less
of an attention on the Nordic countries. And then the whole Nordic food movement came along with,
you know, the Noma people and all the people that kind of came out of that. And what's the guy
called? Klaus Meyer. Klaus Meyer. And now people are really celebrating this like thing that they've
had for hundreds of years. And they've kind of like make it more intricate. And now there's these
like amazing Smurra bread places where they get like creative, but in a nice way with the toppings.
And they kind of like super fill it up, you know, with roast beef and, you know, super amazing
house made pickles and horseradish. And I mean, the seafood scene in the Nordic countries is
amazing, obviously, you know, these like fjord shrimps that they have, you know, that you can
just eat raw, like just a little bit boiled. And it's like, I love it. It's super nice. I mean, the next
time, like when I go to Copenhagen, it's definitely on my list to go to a really nice Smurra bread place.
Yeah, now I feel like going to Copenhagen. What about wraps? Are wraps sandwiches? I would say
these are, these have to be the predecessors of the sandwiches we know today before this British
guy said, oh, I'm a genius. Oh, was he British? Yeah. Yeah. I don't know, man. I'm not so sure,
to be honest with you. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. I mean, like you said, that's kind of a cool thing
about sandwiches, no? It's like that it's like, it's probably like when I eat like a, like a
falafel sort of pita bread, I kind of think like, this is like one of the foods that's kind of
remained relatively the same for like so long. And thinking of sort of like, you know, like a cultural
identity and like food evolution throughout the years, you know, I think that's kind of amazing
because it's kind of like, it's like so primal in a way. It's like bread cooked in like a hot
oven over the fire, like a flat bread, you know, and then just like stuff on top that you eat.
But I don't know, is it a sandwich? I don't know. Yeah, I actually agree on that one. What about
these things where you have like rice cakes or ramen to make a sandwich, like grilled ramen?
I don't know, man. I don't know. It's, I guess so. Right? Like, I guess so. Why not? You know?
Yeah. You don't seem convinced. No, I'm not. I'm not convinced. I'm trying to convince myself.
Tahirazi, right? I don't know, but I'm from a bread eating country, you know, like, yeah, like
is sushi a sandwich? You know, it's like rice. It's like fish that's wrapped in rice. Like, and I mean,
the sushi like originated because of that. It's kind of like, right. So we have, have you guys
ever seen like the original sushi that's like pressed? Right. I mean, because the rice in sushi
is vinegared, right, which makes it, obviously vinegar makes things keep longer because it's
antibacterial. And one of the like very first versions was with mackerel that was very lightly
brined. And then put into a sort of rectangular box with rice and then pressed and then sliced,
right? And then wrapped in seaweed. So that you could take this, it would keep for a little bit
longer. And you could take it on the go and eat it. Right. And that again, is like an example,
like with sandwiches of sort of like a necessity that becomes like a trend in a way. And then,
you know, gets refined and refined, refined and becomes like part of the food culture, you know?
So you could kind of say that sushi is a sandwich. I don't know.
Yeah. Like it actually makes sense. Like it's kind of like a structural thing talking about sandwiches.
Yeah. What about croissants? Sandwich with croissants?
Yeah, for sure. For sure sandwich. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. No doubt. Yeah. You don't think so?
What's the best way for you to eat a croissant? Do you have like any preference?
Yeah, I actually do. I think if you have a nice croissant and it's like, if you have a nice
croissant, just eat the fucking croissant. You know, like don't do anything with it. But if it's
like the day after and this croissant is a little bit stale, sliced open and then sort of like,
you know, like whatever you want to put in. I really like this like Italian ham, this like cooked
rosemary ham. That's has like this rosemary crust. It's like, it's not cured, it's the cooked one,
right? Yeah. That and like a little bit of cheese and whatever you want to put in. Like if you really
want to, if you really want to go that way and want to put some rucola leaves in or whatever,
you know? Yeah, that sounds really amazing. And then you put it on a plancha and you press it
until it's really flat, you know? That's like, for me, that's the best thing. It's kind of like,
it really like revives the croissant. It's got like enough butter in it to get like really crispy and
hot. But like, you have to press it super, super flat, you know, and just like embrace the like,
the two dimensions, aspect of the sandwich, you know? Like a croissant hack I learned not so long
ago. You know, many of these toasters, they have like this part on top of the toaster,
which is actually to toast croissants. So the croissants don't get inside the toaster, but it
gets enough heat to get completely crispy, you know, like a fresh baked croissant. So you can
regenerate like a croissant the next day, instead of destroying it like you were just describing.
Hey, don't croissant shame me, man. We all have our moments, okay? Yeah, but that's cool. I've
never tried that actually. Yeah, it's really cool. Yeah. Do you toast your breads when you do
sandwiches? Like do you use a pan or do you prefer like a toaster? It really depends. I mean,
like if I'm just making like a like a filled sandwich, I toast them. But like I most of the
time I fill it in a way where I want the cheese to melt. So I usually always build a sandwich and
then do it in a pan like I would with the grilled cheese. Okay, I actually like toasting toasting
the bread before like with lots of butter on both sides or on a toaster. Yeah, whatever. But like,
I mean, like, I think the winner is like the panini grill, you know, like a panini grill is
such an amazing piece of equipment. I think it's one of the most underrated pieces of equipment
ever. I like when I was still like a much younger chef, like I did a pop up in London and in this
really raggedy small kitchen. And we didn't have any equipment apart from like an induction and
a panini grill. And the amount of things that you can find that you can do on a panini grill is
absolutely amazing. Yeah, really. It's like, you know, absolutely. I think it's one of the most
underrated pieces of equipment ever, you know, from like grilling spring onions with like these
beautiful like char marks and searing meats. Like a pan bread on a panini grill. Yeah, like the bread
itself. Yeah, yeah, probably. Yeah. Have you ever seen like professional do you toast your buns
when you're doing a burger? Yeah, 100% with a regular toaster or how? No, on a on a griddle
usually. Because that's also something I learned. I used like a regular toaster and I learned that
burger places like McDonald's, they have like this super sophisticated toasters where you get a bun
toasted like in five seconds on both sides. And I was working on a project for a burger company and
I learned this. And since then, I always use like a regular toaster and it works out super well.
A regular toaster for burger buns? Yeah. Oh, nice. Yeah. So do you have any like memorable
sandwich you ever tried somewhere that you want to talk about? Oh, yeah. I mean, I
there's this place in London called Dusty Knuckle Bakery. And they do like
regularly changing sandwiches. And they're just like super I mean, they're like not
like crazy naughty or anything. But it's exactly like what you want. It's like a
nice spread like roasted vegetables, really good deli meat, like really nice cheese and stuff.
And then they bake all the bread themselves. So it's like it's super nice. And they're just like,
and they'll do the sort of like, you know, roasted squash with like hazelnut pesto and goats cheese,
you know, and it's like, oh my god, so nice, you know, just kind of like really like with like a
chef's perspective, you know, they were like really nice combinations. Like simple ingredient focus,
but like super interesting and just super, super delicious. For me, for sure, the best sandwich
I've had in my life was in Florence in Italy in Tuscany, is this place called Atlantico Vinato.
And that well, first of all, in most of Tuscany, all the breads are almost without salt. So it's
kind of annoying, you know, you're in a restaurant, you have your bread, it doesn't have salt. And
it's like, it's Tuscany bread. Nice. Yeah, thanks. Yeah, exactly. But this one has, they do like this,
it's not a focaccia, it's a different type of bread. But, you know, in terms of structure,
it's kind of like a focaccia. And so many people, it's for a lot of food writers, the best sandwich
place in the world. I had this one that they do like a local salami. And it has like a pecorino cream,
then also an artichoke cream and spicy aubergines. That's it. Yeah, that's amazing. You know, I mean,
that's the genius of like Italian cooking in general, you know, it's just sort of like just
super simple product focused, you know, it's just like not overloaded, seasonal. And then there's
just the quality of like, because like what makes these sandwiches like so good, it's just like the
pure quality of like, you know, if you just have like a mortadella, you know, just a super high
quality mortadella, you don't really need anything anymore. Mortadella, a little bit of olive oil,
you know, that's it. Well, talking about mortadella, like Anthony Bourdain's favorite sandwich is like
just a bun grilled mortadella, grilled cheese. So you grill like the mortadella on a pan,
as you would do with, you know, like with a steak or anything. That's in the States, that's called
a fried bologna sandwich, you know. And then it's just mustard and mayonnaise. That's it. Yeah. Hey,
that's a winner, you know, like honestly, like, I like that, you know, it's, I got that from an
American friend of mine. She was just like buying like store bought like mortadella in Spain, just
like put it in a pan. And I was like, what are you making? She's like bologna. Making bologna.
Yeah. And it's really good, you know, with like a spicy mustard with it, you know, and then like,
if you add nice cheese, you know, super nice. Yeah. Okay, cool. Yeah. I think we've reached
time to perhaps make questions if someone in the audience wants to make a question before they do
in the mic. Do we have sandwich related questions or just general questions? I would like to know
where is this Atlantico Vinayo, which is a place in Italy where it is? It's in Florence, Florence,
and they have like six different shops in the city. Yeah. But they've actually just opened in the
States also. Like they've just, yeah, like very recently, I think, like, I think probably New
York. Okay. Yeah. And because it was so, they got so Instagram famous also, you know, with these like
big like stacked up mortadella sandwiches that they, I think somebody reached out to them and
offered them a lot of money. Yeah, because the sandwiches are like a plate size, like a huge
thing. They're huge. Yeah. Any more questions? Talking about grilled cheeses, there used to be
a place here in Berlin, which was called Tin Man. They had an excellent grilled cheese, but
unfortunately they closed. Where would you go for a good grilled cheese now? Oh, that's difficult.
In Berlin. That's difficult. Honestly, I haven't had like a super standout grilled cheese
here yet. The closest thing that I can think of is 44 Brecky in Friedrichshain. They do like an
egg drop sandwiches with like melted cheese. And it's like, it's more like a brunch breakfast place.
And they're kind of like similar to that. They make really nice bread, like really nice milk
bread. And it's these like very thick sandwiches with like egg drop, bacon and cheese. And they're
very nice. Like they're very, very good. But grilled cheese, like a puristic grilled cheese,
I don't know where you would go. No idea. Not in Berlin, especially. Yeah. Anyone else? Okay.
Because Phil, you said that making a grilled cheese sandwich is not really easy. So can you show
everyone or tell anyone, you know, what they have to take care of when they want to make a really
good sandwich? I mean, I can't show anybody because I'd have to pantomime making a grilled cheese.
That would get awkward. Yeah. So it's pretty simple. Like it's you choose your bread, you choose the
cheese. I would say, like if you're a butter person, you lightly butter the inside of the bread,
but then you build your sandwich and you butter the outside of the bread also. Just a very thin,
even layer on all the bread. And then I usually started in a cold pan, right? So I put the bread
in the pan and I turn the heat on to medium and I wait until one side is like really nicely golden
brown, but not all the way that I want it to be golden brown. Then I flip it and you also put some
weight on it, right? You press it down. It can be another pan, can be a pot or you know, like this.
I mean, in professional kitchens, we have special weights that we use for when we're searing fish
or anything so that it keeps it flat and in contact to the pan. And that really helps
transmit the heat, but also keep the sandwich like really nice and flat and press it down,
keep it together. And then once I have the other side browned sort of like 70% of the way,
I flip it again, brown a little bit more, flip it again. Like that you kind of extend the time
that the sandwich is in a pan and by that time the cheese should be fully melted. And then if you
want to go extra, depending on how fatty the cheese is and how much butter you put on your bread,
just give it a little dab on like a little bit of like a paper towel to just take the excess fat
off and then the bread will be super crispy. Nice. Another one? Okay. So a big round of applause,
please.
Thanks, everybody for coming. It's super nice to see, you know, all the friendly faces. And
since you're so cool people, everyone who came to the show is going to get a free sandwich.
So it's getting prepared outside and Chef Phil will, you know, put on his secret magic and I
hope you all enjoy it. Thank you so much.
Maybe give us a couple of minutes to set up outside. I don't know what the situation is
there, you know, but yeah, we should be shouldn't take too long. As you're waiting, obviously you
can look up for potluck food talks on Spotify or anywhere you listen to your podcasts. You know,
give us give us a follow. Give us a five star review and all the shebang. All right, yeah,
we're going to set up a little bit. So just feel free to get something to drink, hang out a little
bit. And once the sandwiches are almost done, I'll let you know.