1
00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:06,400
So we also wanted to announce, especially for our crowd in Berlin, that we will make

2
00:00:06,400 --> 00:00:11,400
a live taping of Pot Luck Food Talks at the Potfest Berlin.

3
00:00:11,400 --> 00:00:15,200
It will be on October 14th and we're going to talk about sandwiches.

4
00:00:15,200 --> 00:00:20,080
We're also going to serve some food and we will prepare a very special episode that will

5
00:00:20,080 --> 00:00:23,160
be recorded live in front of an audience.

6
00:00:23,160 --> 00:00:30,480
So if you want to visit us, just go to potfestberlin.com and get your tickets.

7
00:00:30,480 --> 00:00:36,360
Hello everyone, welcome to Pot Luck Food Talks.

8
00:00:36,360 --> 00:00:39,400
Today we're going to talk about harmony.

9
00:00:39,400 --> 00:00:40,800
So what's the deal with harmony?

10
00:00:40,800 --> 00:00:41,800
What are your thoughts on?

11
00:00:41,800 --> 00:00:47,840
Well, actually, I think we should talk about composition in general, which are the processes

12
00:00:47,840 --> 00:00:52,360
to compose a dish in the context of a menu, right?

13
00:00:52,360 --> 00:00:56,880
Because a dish should always be part of a menu, even if you're cooking at home or if

14
00:00:56,880 --> 00:00:59,440
you're preparing a Christmas dinner or whatever.

15
00:00:59,440 --> 00:01:03,560
In the best case, this should all be a harmonious concept, right?

16
00:01:03,560 --> 00:01:08,280
Considering the people that is coming, the place where you are, and the drink and the

17
00:01:08,280 --> 00:01:09,280
food, of course.

18
00:01:09,280 --> 00:01:10,280
Yeah, definitely.

19
00:01:10,280 --> 00:01:11,880
I mean, like a dish in itself.

20
00:01:11,880 --> 00:01:15,820
Well, that's also like, I mean, if we're starting there, it's kind of like, what's, like, how

21
00:01:15,820 --> 00:01:17,600
do you define harmony, you know?

22
00:01:17,600 --> 00:01:21,240
And like, does a dish have to be fully harmonious?

23
00:01:21,240 --> 00:01:22,520
What does it mean, you know?

24
00:01:22,520 --> 00:01:30,640
Yeah, I was, it's interesting because I've compared many times the idea that, let's say,

25
00:01:30,640 --> 00:01:37,840
a musician and a chef both are harmony managers in a way.

26
00:01:37,840 --> 00:01:43,240
So I wanted to understand the etymology and what it actually means.

27
00:01:43,240 --> 00:01:45,640
And first Greek and then Latin.

28
00:01:45,640 --> 00:01:50,040
But it means things fitting together, making things fit.

29
00:01:50,040 --> 00:01:53,440
Which makes absolute sense in music and in food, right?

30
00:01:53,440 --> 00:01:58,480
And you could also put their poetry or painting or many different things, right?

31
00:01:58,480 --> 00:02:03,680
These are the things that you're trying to achieve when you're conceptualizing a dish.

32
00:02:03,680 --> 00:02:05,000
So what's your process?

33
00:02:05,000 --> 00:02:12,480
Let's say you have to make a menu next week, let's say for a grill that will be in the

34
00:02:12,480 --> 00:02:13,480
countryside.

35
00:02:13,480 --> 00:02:16,680
So what happens in your mind at that point?

36
00:02:16,680 --> 00:02:20,720
Well, there's many things coming together, no?

37
00:02:20,720 --> 00:02:25,840
Like you just said, it's like on one side, obviously, like the most obvious that you

38
00:02:25,840 --> 00:02:30,200
think about is sort of like, okay, what ingredients am I working with?

39
00:02:30,200 --> 00:02:34,600
And then you have, you know, you have sort of like, you know, especially if we compare

40
00:02:34,600 --> 00:02:40,160
to like music or something, you have your sort of like very broad key notes, you know,

41
00:02:40,160 --> 00:02:44,520
say you want something fresh and acidic, you know, or you want something sweet, right?

42
00:02:44,520 --> 00:02:49,240
So like, obviously harmony doesn't mean that everything is kind of like just a round sphere.

43
00:02:49,240 --> 00:02:54,160
No, of course you have like a certain direction that it goes in, but then everything around

44
00:02:54,160 --> 00:02:59,860
that those sort of like key notes has to kind of like fit together, you know, perfectly.

45
00:02:59,860 --> 00:03:02,020
So you kind of think sort of like, okay, where am I at?

46
00:03:02,020 --> 00:03:06,800
Which is like terror, which were what we talked about the last episode, you know, what ingredients

47
00:03:06,800 --> 00:03:08,180
to have to work with.

48
00:03:08,180 --> 00:03:13,520
And then also, you know, the mood and the whole sort of like idea of the menu plays

49
00:03:13,520 --> 00:03:17,640
into it, you know, do you want it to be long and like a sort of banquet?

50
00:03:17,640 --> 00:03:21,160
Do you want it to be sharing style, family style, you know, and all those things, they

51
00:03:21,160 --> 00:03:23,240
come together in the consideration.

52
00:03:23,240 --> 00:03:24,680
How many dishes do I want to do?

53
00:03:24,680 --> 00:03:25,680
Why?

54
00:03:25,680 --> 00:03:29,720
You know, because it's not just like, oh, I'm going to do eight dishes because, because

55
00:03:29,720 --> 00:03:30,720
why not?

56
00:03:30,720 --> 00:03:34,060
You know, there's like a, there's a thought behind it, a sort of like intuitive feeling

57
00:03:34,060 --> 00:03:37,360
of sort of like, this feels right, you know?

58
00:03:37,360 --> 00:03:38,360
Yeah.

59
00:03:38,360 --> 00:03:43,760
Like in my case, I do these things mainly specifically for Christmas dinners, because

60
00:03:43,760 --> 00:03:47,560
I'm in family, I'm going to be usually the person that is cooking.

61
00:03:47,560 --> 00:03:52,680
And what my family do is that they just drop me in the largest supermarket in the city

62
00:03:52,680 --> 00:03:55,260
and tell me, buy whatever you want.

63
00:03:55,260 --> 00:04:00,240
My process in that case is that I will work with what I have available.

64
00:04:00,240 --> 00:04:06,040
And while I'm walking in the supermarket and seeing the products in my mind, I'm building

65
00:04:06,040 --> 00:04:09,120
the dishes like, okay, this could be the side dish.

66
00:04:09,120 --> 00:04:11,040
I could use this for, for the salad.

67
00:04:11,040 --> 00:04:14,240
I could add, I didn't knew they had this here.

68
00:04:14,240 --> 00:04:15,240
And then I have an idea.

69
00:04:15,240 --> 00:04:18,560
Okay, let's look if they also have these other thing.

70
00:04:18,560 --> 00:04:25,920
And just for practical purposes, I won't go crazy about, I'm, I'm missing this super

71
00:04:25,920 --> 00:04:30,360
specific ingredient that I need that we will have to take a three hour drive to find it

72
00:04:30,360 --> 00:04:31,520
or something like that.

73
00:04:31,520 --> 00:04:38,360
That's something I want to avoid because I'm, I have the resources to work out any replacement

74
00:04:38,360 --> 00:04:42,920
or any way around, you know, to do like a different variation of any dish without a

75
00:04:42,920 --> 00:04:45,360
specific ingredient, or I do something else.

76
00:04:45,360 --> 00:04:50,280
If the ingredient is really like a key ingredient that without it, it wouldn't make sense.

77
00:04:50,280 --> 00:04:55,680
That on one side and on the other side, also when I'm making even pincho tours, when I'm

78
00:04:55,680 --> 00:05:01,480
bar hopping and having pinches, I always have like in my mind, like a, like a background

79
00:05:01,480 --> 00:05:08,240
rather, where I'm building a menu and I follow the principles, some key principles that I

80
00:05:08,240 --> 00:05:15,120
learned from, from traditional Kaiseki, this Japanese tea menus, the most orthodox traditional

81
00:05:15,120 --> 00:05:19,520
ones not, but like the, that I took the principles that are common sense principles when you're

82
00:05:19,520 --> 00:05:20,520
eating.

83
00:05:20,520 --> 00:05:26,600
You want to have fish and vegetables and lighter flavors first and then stronger flavors.

84
00:05:26,600 --> 00:05:31,200
Also you want to start with lighter drinks like whites and then going to the reds and

85
00:05:31,200 --> 00:05:32,200
then dessert.

86
00:05:32,200 --> 00:05:34,720
Like it's, it's pretty basic to work it out like that.

87
00:05:34,720 --> 00:05:39,480
But it's, I mean, it's common sense or people that understand food, but I've seen people

88
00:05:39,480 --> 00:05:45,160
for instance, making pincho tours, making an absolute messenger, stomach, mixing up

89
00:05:45,160 --> 00:05:50,040
the drinks, starting with, you know, the meat and ending with the anchovies at chapecha

90
00:05:50,040 --> 00:05:51,040
before dessert.

91
00:05:51,040 --> 00:05:52,960
You know, for me, that's a total mess.

92
00:05:52,960 --> 00:05:53,960
Yeah.

93
00:05:53,960 --> 00:05:54,960
It's not a harmonious.

94
00:05:54,960 --> 00:05:55,960
You know, totally, totally.

95
00:05:55,960 --> 00:05:57,600
And it's like, that's also the thing.

96
00:05:57,600 --> 00:06:00,920
It's kind of like harmony in the sort of like structure, you know?

97
00:06:00,920 --> 00:06:05,600
It's kind of like, it's, if it's just a mess, you know, it's, it's going to be very unenjoyable

98
00:06:05,600 --> 00:06:09,600
because it's a very physical experience to eat, you know?

99
00:06:09,600 --> 00:06:14,400
And the more you go to depth with all these like elements that make up like decision-makings

100
00:06:14,400 --> 00:06:18,680
in how you put things together, you know, there's also one thing, you know, like you

101
00:06:18,680 --> 00:06:22,480
said, it's kind of like if you're in the, with the example of the supermarket, having

102
00:06:22,480 --> 00:06:29,080
to rely on what there is, you know, gives you such a creative boost in a way, you know,

103
00:06:29,080 --> 00:06:32,520
because it's like a limitation, but you have to make it work with what there is.

104
00:06:32,520 --> 00:06:35,520
And so you use the tools you have around you.

105
00:06:35,520 --> 00:06:41,280
And of course you want it to be even like, you are limited, but in that limitation, you

106
00:06:41,280 --> 00:06:44,440
find like a creative process.

107
00:06:44,440 --> 00:06:49,200
And it's the same with like regionality and regional product and like very high seasonality,

108
00:06:49,200 --> 00:06:54,080
you know, it's kind of like, well, like, Hey, this would go really well with avocado and

109
00:06:54,080 --> 00:06:55,080
yuzu, right?

110
00:06:55,080 --> 00:06:58,040
Because like everything does.

111
00:06:58,040 --> 00:07:02,440
But it's like, well, it's fucking, you know, we were, I don't know in Krakow, Poland,

112
00:07:02,440 --> 00:07:06,360
there's no avocado and yuzu, you know, so you have to make it work.

113
00:07:06,360 --> 00:07:07,720
And then kind of like, how do I get there?

114
00:07:07,720 --> 00:07:11,400
You know, it's kind of like, if you go, if we go with that example, it's sort of like,

115
00:07:11,400 --> 00:07:14,800
okay, if I want something fatty, creamy, but like still vegetabley, you know, what can

116
00:07:14,800 --> 00:07:15,800
I use?

117
00:07:15,800 --> 00:07:19,240
And like, okay, if I want something floral acidic, what, what is there?

118
00:07:19,240 --> 00:07:20,400
What can I use?

119
00:07:20,400 --> 00:07:25,400
And then there's also like, what I also think is like really crazy about cooking is that

120
00:07:25,400 --> 00:07:30,480
you have this very sort of free creative side where, you know, you can look at the ingredients

121
00:07:30,480 --> 00:07:36,360
and be like, okay, I can combine this with this, but also it's something very memory

122
00:07:36,360 --> 00:07:41,800
related eating, you know, like very nostalgic and things that we've like experienced.

123
00:07:41,800 --> 00:07:47,600
I mean, from one side, from like often from our family sides or sort of like experiences

124
00:07:47,600 --> 00:07:48,840
we had as a child.

125
00:07:48,840 --> 00:07:49,840
Yeah.

126
00:07:49,840 --> 00:07:52,880
And you can't, you can't mess around with that.

127
00:07:52,880 --> 00:07:58,520
You can say like, oh, for instance, here in the Basque country, there is like this corn

128
00:07:58,520 --> 00:08:01,840
tortilla variation that has been here for centuries.

129
00:08:01,840 --> 00:08:02,840
It's called Talos.

130
00:08:02,840 --> 00:08:03,840
You probably know it.

131
00:08:03,840 --> 00:08:08,040
It's also with mixed stabilized corns.

132
00:08:08,040 --> 00:08:11,600
And if you ask people here, they will tell you that this is from here.

133
00:08:11,600 --> 00:08:12,600
Yeah, right.

134
00:08:12,600 --> 00:08:17,600
But since the colonization of the Americas where corn came from, but yeah, if you tell

135
00:08:17,600 --> 00:08:24,200
the Basque to, I didn't found the Talos, but we have this corn tortillas and they will

136
00:08:24,200 --> 00:08:27,080
behead you, you know, publicly.

137
00:08:27,080 --> 00:08:29,040
That's something that will happen.

138
00:08:29,040 --> 00:08:30,040
Yeah.

139
00:08:30,040 --> 00:08:31,520
You can mess around with memories.

140
00:08:31,520 --> 00:08:37,320
I also was thinking, and this is something probably you that are still working in a kitchen,

141
00:08:37,320 --> 00:08:43,480
this moment that is very, this very chef's moment where you're finishing a sauce and

142
00:08:43,480 --> 00:08:49,560
perhaps you are asking another colleague or the chef for a check, you know, and perhaps

143
00:08:49,560 --> 00:08:54,920
because you're unsure, because you have tried so much and they will use a vocabulary like

144
00:08:54,920 --> 00:09:00,960
it's out of balance or perhaps a little bit of sweetness or acidity or this or that.

145
00:09:00,960 --> 00:09:07,200
And I mean, that's a perfectly conversation just on the topic, you know, on harmony, on

146
00:09:07,200 --> 00:09:08,200
finding balance.

147
00:09:08,200 --> 00:09:10,480
I think that that's what it is all about.

148
00:09:10,480 --> 00:09:11,480
Yeah, totally.

149
00:09:11,480 --> 00:09:15,600
I mean, with a sauce especially, you know, because like you have, it's just a liquid,

150
00:09:15,600 --> 00:09:16,600
right?

151
00:09:16,600 --> 00:09:18,400
And it's like a very lengthy process to make.

152
00:09:18,400 --> 00:09:23,280
I mean, usually like if we talk about like a jus or, you know, something like that, such

153
00:09:23,280 --> 00:09:26,880
a long process to make with so many things can go wrong.

154
00:09:26,880 --> 00:09:31,200
And yeah, like I really learned that when I was, when I spent some time cooking Thai

155
00:09:31,200 --> 00:09:36,440
food and before I did that, I just kind of like slid in because I was helping a friend

156
00:09:36,440 --> 00:09:39,440
of mine out and I didn't really know much about Thai food.

157
00:09:39,440 --> 00:09:45,320
And then like once I got into it, it actually taught me a lot about cooking even, you know,

158
00:09:45,320 --> 00:09:50,080
not just like in Thai food, but like just in regular cooking, like in European cooking.

159
00:09:50,080 --> 00:09:54,480
And I really remember like a moment where he was showing me how to make the som tam

160
00:09:54,480 --> 00:09:57,840
dressing, like a dressing for the green papaya salad.

161
00:09:57,840 --> 00:10:06,800
And it's just fish sauce, palm sugar, lime juice, tamarind and chili.

162
00:10:06,800 --> 00:10:07,800
I think that's it.

163
00:10:07,800 --> 00:10:11,840
So in Thai food, you always have these like, you always talk about like these like main

164
00:10:11,840 --> 00:10:17,120
flavors, you know, sweet, salty, sour, spicy, right?

165
00:10:17,120 --> 00:10:21,320
And that was like the perfect example for me because I started mixing it and it's very,

166
00:10:21,320 --> 00:10:22,320
very intense, right?

167
00:10:22,320 --> 00:10:26,640
You taste it and you're like, ah, it's salty, but like it needs to be more sour and sweet.

168
00:10:26,640 --> 00:10:29,640
And then you add more tamarind, you add more lime juice, you taste it and you're like,

169
00:10:29,640 --> 00:10:30,800
ah, now it's a little bit too sour.

170
00:10:30,800 --> 00:10:32,340
I need some more tamarind.

171
00:10:32,340 --> 00:10:39,200
And you keep seasoning it up until you couldn't season any flavor anymore.

172
00:10:39,200 --> 00:10:40,440
Yeah, exactly.

173
00:10:40,440 --> 00:10:42,480
I know exactly that process.

174
00:10:42,480 --> 00:10:47,120
The first restaurant where I worked, it was a French Caribbean restaurant and there was

175
00:10:47,120 --> 00:10:49,520
like a French Caribbean bouillabaisse.

176
00:10:49,520 --> 00:10:53,640
Was like a variation of bouillabaisse with some Caribbean variations, right?

177
00:10:53,640 --> 00:10:58,520
They didn't have hot sauce, you know, like, but that was like a classic from the house

178
00:10:58,520 --> 00:11:04,480
and it has like a very specific flavor and yes, especially salt.

179
00:11:04,480 --> 00:11:08,240
Salt is something like, okay, I will add a little bit more and a little bit more.

180
00:11:08,240 --> 00:11:13,600
And if you, if you make too much, it's super hard to unsalt something.

181
00:11:13,600 --> 00:11:20,440
Like nowadays I actually would do it just calculating the percentage of the whole weight

182
00:11:20,440 --> 00:11:25,640
of the, you know, that will actually save time and make it like more precise.

183
00:11:25,640 --> 00:11:33,680
I want actually just for everybody to know between one and 2% is a, of the total weight

184
00:11:33,680 --> 00:11:35,080
is like a good amount of salt.

185
00:11:35,080 --> 00:11:41,120
So if you're not sure about how much salt to add to something, like a kind of tolerable

186
00:11:41,120 --> 00:11:47,480
but high level of salt, like people that want savory 2% is a, like if you want to add, you

187
00:11:47,480 --> 00:11:51,040
could add that to a salad and it will have like a proper amount of salt.

188
00:11:51,040 --> 00:11:52,040
Totally.

189
00:11:52,040 --> 00:11:53,040
I do, I do the same thing actually.

190
00:11:53,040 --> 00:11:55,360
Like, and I only started to do that recently.

191
00:11:55,360 --> 00:11:59,960
You know, I was always seasoning like, I mean, I do, I have to say I'm a chef.

192
00:11:59,960 --> 00:12:05,400
I don't, I usually like when I weigh something out, it's because I really have to, you know,

193
00:12:05,400 --> 00:12:09,040
I do everything kind of like by feeling by eye, but like I started doing the same thing.

194
00:12:09,040 --> 00:12:13,240
For example, like I was making this like venison tartare lately.

195
00:12:13,240 --> 00:12:18,360
And so I take like all the offcuts from a venison and then instead of just like grinding

196
00:12:18,360 --> 00:12:23,280
it or cutting it raw, I, as you do, you kind of, you freeze it just a little bit so it

197
00:12:23,280 --> 00:12:27,320
cuts clean and then I weigh the weight and I just add 2% of salt.

198
00:12:27,320 --> 00:12:28,320
Exactly.

199
00:12:28,320 --> 00:12:29,320
Yeah.

200
00:12:29,320 --> 00:12:32,840
And then you get through the grinder and it comes out like very, like really red, really,

201
00:12:32,840 --> 00:12:36,840
really nicely intensely red and with like a, like a perfect seasoning, you know?

202
00:12:36,840 --> 00:12:37,840
Exactly.

203
00:12:37,840 --> 00:12:38,840
Yeah.

204
00:12:38,840 --> 00:12:39,840
It feels like a perfect seasoning.

205
00:12:39,840 --> 00:12:40,840
Yeah, exactly.

206
00:12:40,840 --> 00:12:44,480
All I have to do is like mix it and serve it and done, you know?

207
00:12:44,480 --> 00:12:45,480
Yeah.

208
00:12:45,480 --> 00:12:49,760
I saw once a sashimi chef working and I asked him like, how much salt are you adding to

209
00:12:49,760 --> 00:12:50,760
this?

210
00:12:50,760 --> 00:12:52,760
And he said straightforward, 2%.

211
00:12:52,760 --> 00:12:54,560
2% of salt.

212
00:12:54,560 --> 00:12:55,560
Yeah.

213
00:12:55,560 --> 00:12:59,720
That's also something flavors, I think it's also super important to the texture.

214
00:12:59,720 --> 00:13:06,000
If we talk about the harmony, you also want to make like the texture fit together.

215
00:13:06,000 --> 00:13:11,720
And if you, if you screw the texture of something that was part of the concept of the dish,

216
00:13:11,720 --> 00:13:13,080
it just doesn't work anymore.

217
00:13:13,080 --> 00:13:19,000
Like there is this, there are a few places here that make this amazing picks here that

218
00:13:19,000 --> 00:13:23,720
is super soft on the inside and it has to be super crispy, like crystal crispy on the

219
00:13:23,720 --> 00:13:24,720
outside.

220
00:13:24,720 --> 00:13:27,480
Otherwise, that dish doesn't make any sense.

221
00:13:27,480 --> 00:13:32,800
But once in a while, especially when it's too crowded, you'll get a picks here that

222
00:13:32,800 --> 00:13:36,920
is not super crispy and it just, it just doesn't make sense.

223
00:13:36,920 --> 00:13:39,000
You know, like it's not the idea of the dish.

224
00:13:39,000 --> 00:13:40,000
Yeah.

225
00:13:40,000 --> 00:13:41,000
Shameful.

226
00:13:41,000 --> 00:13:42,160
But what can you say about texture?

227
00:13:42,160 --> 00:13:48,000
I mean, and here, especially here in the Basque country, texture plays a key role in the

228
00:13:48,000 --> 00:13:55,240
food identity, like this stickiness, the collagen stickiness that you will find in many sauces

229
00:13:55,240 --> 00:13:57,640
and fishes and things and stews.

230
00:13:57,640 --> 00:13:58,640
Yeah.

231
00:13:58,640 --> 00:14:04,400
It's, um, texture is just as important as flavor, you know, honestly, because it's like,

232
00:14:04,400 --> 00:14:08,780
you know, like if you think of an example of kind of like, and that's the difficult

233
00:14:08,780 --> 00:14:10,400
thing about making dishes.

234
00:14:10,400 --> 00:14:13,120
If you, you can make a puree, right?

235
00:14:13,120 --> 00:14:16,960
And season it perfectly and have it super silky smooth and stuff and you taste it and

236
00:14:16,960 --> 00:14:18,000
you're like, ah, that's delicious.

237
00:14:18,000 --> 00:14:23,480
You know, we'll make three other purees, you know, and you can make them and be sort of

238
00:14:23,480 --> 00:14:28,800
like, okay, it's perfectly made, super nice, perfectly seasoned, but take a plate and put

239
00:14:28,800 --> 00:14:30,440
the fucking four purees together.

240
00:14:30,440 --> 00:14:32,960
It's going to be a dish, you know?

241
00:14:32,960 --> 00:14:34,440
Yeah, absolutely.

242
00:14:34,440 --> 00:14:37,680
But, um, it's like, it just doesn't work.

243
00:14:37,680 --> 00:14:42,040
You know, it's like, and that's something that's very hard to explain because you can't

244
00:14:42,040 --> 00:14:43,640
say like, oh, you need something creamy.

245
00:14:43,640 --> 00:14:44,640
You need something frisbee.

246
00:14:44,640 --> 00:14:48,520
You know, that's, that's not how it works because it's kind of like, there are no rules,

247
00:14:48,520 --> 00:14:53,800
but there are kind of rules, you know, it's like puree times four is not nice, but then

248
00:14:53,800 --> 00:14:55,800
sort of like how much puree is enough.

249
00:14:55,800 --> 00:14:56,800
Yeah.

250
00:14:56,800 --> 00:14:57,800
Counterbalance that.

251
00:14:57,800 --> 00:14:58,800
Yeah.

252
00:14:58,800 --> 00:15:03,800
I remember like, like a crazy moments also in the kitchen working with maybe like a legendary

253
00:15:03,800 --> 00:15:09,400
chef and I'm like making a puree and I give it to taste and the chef will tell me like,

254
00:15:09,400 --> 00:15:12,880
add a half a teaspoon or like a teaspoon of honey.

255
00:15:12,880 --> 00:15:13,880
Yeah.

256
00:15:13,880 --> 00:15:14,880
And I was like, what?

257
00:15:14,880 --> 00:15:17,600
I would have never come up with that.

258
00:15:17,600 --> 00:15:19,160
And I added, and it tastes completely different.

259
00:15:19,160 --> 00:15:22,440
And it actually, you know, it made absolute sense.

260
00:15:22,440 --> 00:15:25,640
Uh, I was like, wow, completely like amazed about it.

261
00:15:25,640 --> 00:15:26,640
Yeah.

262
00:15:26,640 --> 00:15:31,480
And that's such a, like, that's a thing because we can talk about like harmony and techniques

263
00:15:31,480 --> 00:15:37,520
and stuff like that to a certain extent where they make sense, but to a very large extent

264
00:15:37,520 --> 00:15:43,000
also does like an intuitive feeling that you have because of your experience, you know?

265
00:15:43,000 --> 00:15:46,000
But I think, I think they're not exclusive when I'm from each other.

266
00:15:46,000 --> 00:15:50,600
I think like, I think intuition is aiming for harmony.

267
00:15:50,600 --> 00:15:51,600
No, no, no, totally.

268
00:15:51,600 --> 00:15:55,700
But I mean, sort of like there's, there's certain things that I can't really, that like,

269
00:15:55,700 --> 00:16:02,240
you have to have the experience and you have to have like tasted and made and, and seen

270
00:16:02,240 --> 00:16:06,440
and observed, you know, and like work with people to have this like thing because like,

271
00:16:06,440 --> 00:16:10,760
for example, now I have, I have a fresh, a fresh batch of apprentices in my kitchen,

272
00:16:10,760 --> 00:16:11,760
right?

273
00:16:11,760 --> 00:16:15,160
And you know, you're kind of showing them and they're like as fresh as they can be.

274
00:16:15,160 --> 00:16:17,560
And so you, you know, you show them how to make a thing.

275
00:16:17,560 --> 00:16:21,480
Like for example, I've got this like tomato essence, like vinaigrette where first you

276
00:16:21,480 --> 00:16:26,240
make a tomato water and then you make like a, you lightly fermented, make like a vinaigrette

277
00:16:26,240 --> 00:16:27,240
out of it.

278
00:16:27,240 --> 00:16:31,600
So it's very easy, but it has to be seasoned really perfectly to be really nice.

279
00:16:31,600 --> 00:16:35,120
And so they check in with me and they're like, okay, so how's this?

280
00:16:35,120 --> 00:16:39,960
And I'm like, no, you need to add more salt, a little bit of sugar, a little bit of verjoo.

281
00:16:39,960 --> 00:16:44,520
And they're like, okay, so they start seasoning it and they taste it to the point where they

282
00:16:44,520 --> 00:16:46,140
think it's perfect.

283
00:16:46,140 --> 00:16:49,800
And then you taste it and you're like, no, it needs more salt, more verjoo.

284
00:16:49,800 --> 00:16:52,440
And they're like, okay, they make it again.

285
00:16:52,440 --> 00:16:54,520
They tasted it like, okay, now, now it's perfect.

286
00:16:54,520 --> 00:16:55,960
Now it's, now it's really good.

287
00:16:55,960 --> 00:16:56,960
Yeah.

288
00:16:56,960 --> 00:16:59,560
That's the same process I had with, while I was learning to make this bouillabaisse,

289
00:16:59,560 --> 00:17:04,040
I was talking about, because you had to add salt, you had to add a hot sauce.

290
00:17:04,040 --> 00:17:06,680
It also had saffron.

291
00:17:06,680 --> 00:17:08,520
It also had like pasties.

292
00:17:08,520 --> 00:17:09,520
Yeah.

293
00:17:09,520 --> 00:17:11,040
And everything had to be in harmony.

294
00:17:11,040 --> 00:17:15,880
You know, if you add too much Tabasco, too much salt or too much pasties or too much

295
00:17:15,880 --> 00:17:19,880
this, you will get like, not the wanted effect, you know?

296
00:17:19,880 --> 00:17:20,880
Yeah.

297
00:17:20,880 --> 00:17:21,880
Yeah, for sure.

298
00:17:21,880 --> 00:17:28,280
We talked about another key factor in harmony, which is temperature.

299
00:17:28,280 --> 00:17:34,760
And you will see, you can tell a chef, if you see someone in a restaurant where a dish

300
00:17:34,760 --> 00:17:40,200
comes and the guy or the person touches first the dish and then each single element of the

301
00:17:40,200 --> 00:17:45,400
dish, which it's fingers to check if it's warm or cold.

302
00:17:45,400 --> 00:17:46,400
That's it.

303
00:17:46,400 --> 00:17:50,760
But you do, you thought everybody did that?

304
00:17:50,760 --> 00:17:53,080
No, no, I've only seen anybody do that.

305
00:17:53,080 --> 00:17:57,720
I would be really weirded out of my, with the back of the finger touching like the,

306
00:17:57,720 --> 00:17:59,720
I mean, you know, you do that.

307
00:17:59,720 --> 00:18:00,720
Come on.

308
00:18:00,720 --> 00:18:03,240
I had no, not if when I'm in a restaurant, I don't do it.

309
00:18:03,240 --> 00:18:04,240
No.

310
00:18:04,240 --> 00:18:07,720
But if I touch the plate first thing, I touch the plate to see if the plate is hot.

311
00:18:07,720 --> 00:18:12,360
That's like, you know, like, I don't know, something I have from the kitchen.

312
00:18:12,360 --> 00:18:13,720
Yeah, that's true.

313
00:18:13,720 --> 00:18:18,160
I mean, I do, it is super important to temperature, you know, I feel like it's one, especially

314
00:18:18,160 --> 00:18:24,800
in like European cooking or like Western kitchens in general, Asia is different, but it's something

315
00:18:24,800 --> 00:18:28,920
that we kind of forget about a little bit because we're sort of like, well, like, because

316
00:18:28,920 --> 00:18:33,320
there's hot and there's really hot, right?

317
00:18:33,320 --> 00:18:35,400
And there's a big difference between those two.

318
00:18:35,400 --> 00:18:39,280
And I feel like often here we kind of think like, well, it's hot steaming, you know, it's

319
00:18:39,280 --> 00:18:40,640
freshly made.

320
00:18:40,640 --> 00:18:42,800
So it's fine.

321
00:18:42,800 --> 00:18:48,520
But you know, for example, if you go to Japan and you order a soup, you know, and if it's

322
00:18:48,520 --> 00:18:53,840
not boiling, boiling hot, they will send it back because the whole experience is completely

323
00:18:53,840 --> 00:18:54,840
different.

324
00:18:54,840 --> 00:18:58,880
That happened to me once cooking ramen at home and it wasn't super hot.

325
00:18:58,880 --> 00:19:00,840
And I realized like, oh, okay.

326
00:19:00,840 --> 00:19:01,840
Yeah.

327
00:19:01,840 --> 00:19:07,160
Because actually soup, temperature is not common sensing because if you're sending a

328
00:19:07,160 --> 00:19:12,200
broth, it's not okay to send it boiling hot and sending it to, because it will be too

329
00:19:12,200 --> 00:19:14,600
hot and it will take too long to eat.

330
00:19:14,600 --> 00:19:18,720
So that's really like, like, I don't know, 85 degrees or something like that.

331
00:19:18,720 --> 00:19:21,320
Like just a step below that.

332
00:19:21,320 --> 00:19:22,320
Yeah.

333
00:19:22,320 --> 00:19:25,560
But the thing is kind of like, if you're serving it, what temperature do you heat it to so that

334
00:19:25,560 --> 00:19:30,720
you like pour it into the bowl, the waiter comes, brings it out by the time it lands

335
00:19:30,720 --> 00:19:32,880
at the hands of customer.

336
00:19:32,880 --> 00:19:36,720
But then it's kind of like, but that's why chefs go so crazy also, you know, it's kind

337
00:19:36,720 --> 00:19:42,280
of like you think about all these things and you like try to fucking find the perfect temperature

338
00:19:42,280 --> 00:19:43,600
for this fucking broth.

339
00:19:43,600 --> 00:19:46,480
And then you see it go out and you're like, oh yeah.

340
00:19:46,480 --> 00:19:49,440
And then it lands in front of the customer and they just ignore it for like 10 minutes,

341
00:19:49,440 --> 00:19:51,680
you know, and just keep talking and blah.

342
00:19:51,680 --> 00:19:55,360
And then it has taken the first sip and they're like, oh, this is old.

343
00:19:55,360 --> 00:19:58,080
Like what the fuck are they doing in the kitchen?

344
00:19:58,080 --> 00:20:01,680
You know, then that makes me want to just kind of, you know, throw a pan at them or

345
00:20:01,680 --> 00:20:02,680
something.

346
00:20:02,680 --> 00:20:03,920
Not that we condone this behavior.

347
00:20:03,920 --> 00:20:08,680
Well, just to finish the temperature thing, there is a saying in Spanish that is very

348
00:20:08,680 --> 00:20:09,680
straightforward.

349
00:20:09,680 --> 00:20:14,000
It's a curing saying that says lo caliente caliente y lo frío frío.

350
00:20:14,000 --> 00:20:15,880
So what's supposed to be hot, hot.

351
00:20:15,880 --> 00:20:18,160
And what's supposed to be cold, cold.

352
00:20:18,160 --> 00:20:22,460
And that's something you don't want a hot salad or a cold soup.

353
00:20:22,460 --> 00:20:25,040
So that's something that has to be managed also.

354
00:20:25,040 --> 00:20:28,720
And also especially things that are fridge cold.

355
00:20:28,720 --> 00:20:29,720
You also don't want that.

356
00:20:29,720 --> 00:20:31,400
Let's say a tomato salad.

357
00:20:31,400 --> 00:20:35,880
You don't want a tomato that just came out of the fridge and it's super cold.

358
00:20:35,880 --> 00:20:36,880
That's horrible.

359
00:20:36,880 --> 00:20:42,280
Like it loses the whole meaning of eating a nice tomato.

360
00:20:42,280 --> 00:20:43,280
Absolutely.

361
00:20:43,280 --> 00:20:44,280
Yeah, totally.

362
00:20:44,280 --> 00:20:51,440
And I would say the very last thing, I would say the very last element in dish harmony,

363
00:20:51,440 --> 00:20:53,520
I would say it's the visual appeal.

364
00:20:53,520 --> 00:21:01,680
I remember once you were like giving opinions on this typical chef platforms that are on

365
00:21:01,680 --> 00:21:06,080
Instagram that post a lot of plating techniques and these kinds of things.

366
00:21:06,080 --> 00:21:10,920
That some of these dishes you feel that they're like trying to make it as colorful as possible

367
00:21:10,920 --> 00:21:15,080
and adding as many elements as possible to make it look more pro.

368
00:21:15,080 --> 00:21:19,560
So like, and for me in many cases, that's exactly what they're communicating with those

369
00:21:19,560 --> 00:21:20,560
dishes.

370
00:21:20,560 --> 00:21:26,280
I don't know that hunger of showing off something just for its appeal, which I'm not interested

371
00:21:26,280 --> 00:21:27,280
at all.

372
00:21:27,280 --> 00:21:28,280
Yeah, totally.

373
00:21:28,280 --> 00:21:32,480
I mean, it's like, it's like show me that you don't know how to cook without like, without

374
00:21:32,480 --> 00:21:34,440
telling me that you don't know how to cook, you know.

375
00:21:34,440 --> 00:21:39,240
I really hate those sorts of like, it's not just these like Instagram influencers.

376
00:21:39,240 --> 00:21:43,600
There's a lot of chefs that do that also, you know, where the look of something is more

377
00:21:43,600 --> 00:21:46,880
important than the actual substance of the dish.

378
00:21:46,880 --> 00:21:52,160
Where it's kind of like, well, I've got this like pea water that when I add lime juice,

379
00:21:52,160 --> 00:21:53,640
it turns purple.

380
00:21:53,640 --> 00:22:00,040
Yeah, or this, this, how to say this phrase is like, ah, let's add some green to this

381
00:22:00,040 --> 00:22:01,040
dish.

382
00:22:01,040 --> 00:22:03,720
And it's like, why green?

383
00:22:03,720 --> 00:22:06,360
You know, why are you talking about that color?

384
00:22:06,360 --> 00:22:13,960
For me, actually, I would say the, if there would be a hierarchy, the visual appeal, I

385
00:22:13,960 --> 00:22:14,960
don't know.

386
00:22:14,960 --> 00:22:20,720
I don't think there would be a hierarchy between flavor, texture, visual and temperature.

387
00:22:20,720 --> 00:22:27,080
I think they're all as important, but I would say if the visual is not perfect and everything

388
00:22:27,080 --> 00:22:29,520
else is, it could be a killer dish, you know.

389
00:22:29,520 --> 00:22:35,000
If you have the flavor, the texture and the temperature, but the dish, I mean, it could

390
00:22:35,000 --> 00:22:41,000
be something hidden inside a, that you can, under a foam, for instance, you know, you

391
00:22:41,000 --> 00:22:47,160
see a white foam and under it you have this universe of flavors and textures and temperatures,

392
00:22:47,160 --> 00:22:52,880
which is actually a resource that you will see once in a while in restaurants, hiding

393
00:22:52,880 --> 00:22:53,880
the dish.

394
00:22:53,880 --> 00:22:59,000
I think, I think we need to make the difference between like, because like the visual is very

395
00:22:59,000 --> 00:23:03,480
important, but the visual can be very simple, right?

396
00:23:03,480 --> 00:23:08,720
But like, it's not the same, like caring for the visual as saying, oh, let's add more color.

397
00:23:08,720 --> 00:23:10,040
That's the wrong way.

398
00:23:10,040 --> 00:23:13,120
You know, that's not the, that's not the true way, you know.

399
00:23:13,120 --> 00:23:14,120
Absolutely.

400
00:23:14,120 --> 00:23:15,120
Yeah.

401
00:23:15,120 --> 00:23:20,880
Because you can, yeah, you can make something really nice, just showcasing the product and

402
00:23:20,880 --> 00:23:24,720
the technique that you, and you can just, just put an element in the center of the dish

403
00:23:24,720 --> 00:23:25,720
and that's it.

404
00:23:25,720 --> 00:23:26,720
Yeah.

405
00:23:26,720 --> 00:23:30,080
It's kind of like, what's beautiful, you know, like what is beautiful?

406
00:23:30,080 --> 00:23:31,600
Is a lot of flowers beautiful?

407
00:23:31,600 --> 00:23:32,600
Yeah, sure.

408
00:23:32,600 --> 00:23:34,560
But it's not, that's not the only thing that's beautiful.

409
00:23:34,560 --> 00:23:38,800
Is blanched green spinach that's super bright green?

410
00:23:38,800 --> 00:23:39,800
Is it beautiful?

411
00:23:39,800 --> 00:23:40,800
That's super beautiful.

412
00:23:40,800 --> 00:23:45,760
But spinach that's been slow cooked for like two hours and that's like army green, but

413
00:23:45,760 --> 00:23:51,320
like super tender and like cooked through, like they do in Indian food, you know, it's

414
00:23:51,320 --> 00:23:56,400
not green, you know, it's more brown green, but that's very beautiful, you know, like

415
00:23:56,400 --> 00:24:02,400
it's like, it is a leak that you like grill the shit out of until it's black, you know,

416
00:24:02,400 --> 00:24:07,200
and inside and only when you cut into it, you see the like beautiful white inside.

417
00:24:07,200 --> 00:24:08,380
That's super beautiful, you know.

418
00:24:08,380 --> 00:24:12,840
So it's kind of like going with nature and going with the natural things, you know, is

419
00:24:12,840 --> 00:24:16,500
very nice and like, Hey, in summer, you know, sort of like, I also, I put a lot of flowers

420
00:24:16,500 --> 00:24:20,720
on my dishes at the moment because we have a lot of the garden, but that's over soon

421
00:24:20,720 --> 00:24:25,320
and then you have to embrace the other things, you know, the like the autumn, the Browns,

422
00:24:25,320 --> 00:24:28,920
you know, the muted colors, because that's, that's what there is, you know, and I think

423
00:24:28,920 --> 00:24:34,800
once you, like, if you go with nature, you know, you, you find, um, like you find the

424
00:24:34,800 --> 00:24:37,760
aesthetic, you know, because nature, nature isn't really raw.

425
00:24:37,760 --> 00:24:38,760
Yeah.

426
00:24:38,760 --> 00:24:39,760
Yeah.

427
00:24:39,760 --> 00:24:43,440
I would also add, uh, I learned from, from Thomas Keller, I think in an interview, he

428
00:24:43,440 --> 00:24:47,120
mentioned this, I think I have mentioned this in another episode, but he talks about the

429
00:24:47,120 --> 00:24:49,120
law of diminishing returns.

430
00:24:49,120 --> 00:24:55,560
That means that you add elements to something until a point that if you add more elements,

431
00:24:55,560 --> 00:24:58,080
you're not making it better, but worse.

432
00:24:58,080 --> 00:25:03,120
So that's the point you want to understand of a dish that you add, add, add.

433
00:25:03,120 --> 00:25:04,120
Okay.

434
00:25:04,120 --> 00:25:05,120
Here it is.

435
00:25:05,120 --> 00:25:08,680
If I add more, I'm starting to, to make it worse, not better.

436
00:25:08,680 --> 00:25:13,800
So in understanding where that line is in any of the things we talk about in flavor,

437
00:25:13,800 --> 00:25:18,760
in texture, in visual appeal, or in temperature, you have to understand that line that you

438
00:25:18,760 --> 00:25:21,800
want to, to get the best out of the dish.

439
00:25:21,800 --> 00:25:22,800
Absolutely.

440
00:25:22,800 --> 00:25:23,880
Like a hundred percent.

441
00:25:23,880 --> 00:25:28,440
It's very difficult to get to that line and it's like a plane, you know, you kind of like,

442
00:25:28,440 --> 00:25:33,200
ah, and you, you try to hit that line exactly, you know, but often, especially when you're

443
00:25:33,200 --> 00:25:38,280
like younger and you, you're just starting, you overshoot it because you're overcompensating.

444
00:25:38,280 --> 00:25:43,360
And then like, once you are able to hit that line and then you try to do that all the time,

445
00:25:43,360 --> 00:25:46,840
and then you take it one step further and you take away.

446
00:25:46,840 --> 00:25:47,840
Right.

447
00:25:47,840 --> 00:25:49,560
That's what I think.

448
00:25:49,560 --> 00:25:51,480
That's what I see really great chefs doing.

449
00:25:51,480 --> 00:25:54,140
It's like they, they are able to write that line perfectly.

450
00:25:54,140 --> 00:25:55,920
And then they're sort of like, no, now I'm going to take away.

451
00:25:55,920 --> 00:25:57,280
I'm going to do even less.

452
00:25:57,280 --> 00:25:58,280
Yeah.

453
00:25:58,280 --> 00:26:00,960
But the things that I do, you know, they're exceptionally good.

454
00:26:00,960 --> 00:26:06,640
Like it takes so much skill to do a Magnus Nielsen and just serve a piece of meat with

455
00:26:06,640 --> 00:26:09,240
like a condiment, you know, and that's enough.

456
00:26:09,240 --> 00:26:10,240
That's all you need.

457
00:26:10,240 --> 00:26:11,240
And it's an amazing dish.

458
00:26:11,240 --> 00:26:16,680
That's really difficult.

459
00:26:16,680 --> 00:26:19,740
That's it for this week's episode of potluck food talks.

460
00:26:19,740 --> 00:26:23,600
If you like what we're doing, make sure to subscribe to the podcast so you never miss

461
00:26:23,600 --> 00:26:24,600
an episode.

462
00:26:24,600 --> 00:26:28,860
You can also find us on Instagram and Tik Tok as potluck food talks.

463
00:26:28,860 --> 00:26:31,200
The show airs every Monday.