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Hi everyone, welcome to Pot Luck Food Talks.

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Today I'm here with my man Phil Walther.

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We're going to talk about slavery.

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Modern kitchen slavery, as a lot of people like to call it.

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Stagiaire, doing stash in high-end restaurants.

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It's quite a topic.

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We've both done it.

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I don't know, what are your opinions about it?

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Well, it's a very controversial topic and a lot of people, I feel like especially the

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generation after me and you, they have very strong opinions in it.

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And I think rightfully so.

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You should definitely have questions and have an opinion on this.

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I think maybe we should start explaining what exactly stash is and what it entails and why

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you would do something like that.

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Basically, it's an internship in a restaurant.

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And I would say in the most traditional ways that you work for free.

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You go to a high-end restaurant, you work for free, and it's not that because you're

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working for free, you're going to have certain privileges.

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Actually, you're going to get the shittiest jobs.

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And if you prove that you can do many tasks and assume responsibility and do the things

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in the right way, sometimes you end up being hired or you end up getting more responsibility.

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I mean, I saw you working as an apprentice and you were running a station like a chef

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de pate because you were already at that point.

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And that was also my case in the places where I worked, where I could have the responsibility

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of leading a station because whatever, the chef de pate was on his day off or these kinds

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of things.

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So basically, it's learning by doing in a real restaurant.

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Yeah, exactly.

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And I think for people on the outside, when they hear that, especially when you started

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explaining at the beginning, instead of like, well, you go to a restaurant, you work for

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free and you get the shittiest jobs and you get the shittiest treatment and blah, blah,

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blah, it sounds very rough.

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It's kind of like people probably ask themselves, why would you do something like this?

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Right?

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But...

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You know, I was having a conversation just recently about exactly that point you were

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just mentioning.

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And I think if you talk about it, you bring people to reason to understand why it's screened

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in the kitchen.

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Because basically, imagine you're cooking at home and you buy a whole fish, a whole

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one, you get really nervous and you don't want to screw it up.

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And I'm pretty sure if someone comes and screws your fish, you won't take it like, oh, well,

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no problem.

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Let's have a nice dinner some other day.

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You know, like it will be like a drama for sure.

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And that's what happened in kitchens.

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And the reason is that fish, you have like 500 like those every day and you don't want

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to screw any of those, you know?

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And I mean, also, it's important to know that like not just any restaurants do this, you

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know, it's like talking about football, you know, it's like we're talking with the champions

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league of restaurants, you know, this is the top, top, top level.

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Like there's nothing above it and nobody's forcing anybody to do a stage there.

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You know, it's kind of like you can obviously it gets taken to the extremes, but you know,

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you can see it as an internship and you've invest your time and your effort and your

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work for doing like two months or three months and gaining experience, seeing a different

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place because it's not just the food that's different.

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It's the whole organization, the mentality, the mindset, the attitude, the small things,

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the cleaning, you know, the produce, how a menu is set up, how the kitchen is organized.

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And this is a very valuable insight for you that, you know, you can decide to do.

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No, exactly for me, like if I have to talk about my motivation, why did I, well, I did

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this like for about three years.

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I was working in different places.

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First in Caracas in my hometown, I did this and I would say two of the best restaurants

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in the city at the moment and also in a chocolate factory.

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And I went to Spain to do exactly the same at Mugaritz and when you do this in a restaurant

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from that level, the question is, well, why would you do that?

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Why would you take a plane and spend money, the money you need for diet and accommodation

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or such a, I would say, how could you call this like an educational project, personal

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project, something like this?

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Yeah.

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For me, this was much more interesting than going to a culinary school.

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There is these people that have the chance and the money to go to super expensive culinary

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schools and then doing different masters and different specializations and different things.

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I thought like if I had the money to do that, I would rather tour in different restaurants

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in Europe because you see the real thing, you know, you see real chefs in action in

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a real service.

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For example, in the case of Mugaritz, they were writing history at the moment, the dishes

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that were coming out and the chefs that were in that kitchen, just to name a few.

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I mean, it was an amazing lineup.

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There was Paco Morales, Danny Hunter, Luca Fantin, Alejandro Cancino, Joannes, Dani Laza,

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you know, like they're all stars now or Michelin star chefs even, Olida Boo, you know, like

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and Camila Seidler all at the same time in the same place.

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And, you know, being there and experiencing that, it's priceless.

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And when I hear people comparing these things like with modern slavery or some kind of abuse

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or these kind of things, well, I think they're just misinformed, in my opinion.

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Yeah, I think that your comparison to, you know, whether you decide to put your money

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and your effort into culinary school or whether you put your money and your effort into doing

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that, I think that's really, really on the money, like on point, because it's like, I

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personally, I wouldn't have had any money to spend on culinary school, but I wanted

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to like, I wanted to be the best professional, the best version of myself.

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And I really, I was very, very passionate and I wanted to really strive, you know, for

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excellency.

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And so what could I offer?

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I could offer my time and my hard work, right?

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And so that's what I did and that's what I paid with, you know?

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And it's, yeah, I think people are really, really misinformed.

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And also what I never understand is that this is a free decision, you know?

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It's not like when we talk about sort of like all the best restaurants in the world, like

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for me, it's very, very clear.

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It's like whether you spent five years starving in Michelin star restaurants or you're cooking

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in not a Michelin star restaurant that does really good food, one isn't better than the

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other, you know?

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It's just a different style of cooking, but you're not automatically better just because

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you've starved at Noma and you starved at, you know, 11 Madison Park.

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That doesn't make you a better person or necessarily a better chef, you know?

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In some cases yes, in some cases no, but it doesn't mean anything, you know?

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It's just something that you're interested in.

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And so, you know, people sort of like, oh, this is exploitation, you know?

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It's kind of like, no, it's not.

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It's your free choice to decide to do this.

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It's forcing you to, and you're also not pressured into doing it because people say, well, if

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you don't do this, then you're not going to succeed in your profession.

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Yeah, like, and also what I was mentioning earlier, these super strong opinions are always

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from outsiders.

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Very rarely see them from people that actually did these experiences.

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You also see that.

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I've also seen that, of course.

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But I mean, there were two relevant scandals here in Spain, like press-wise.

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But I mean, since I was doing stash myself, I would hear people threatening of, yeah,

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you know, we could one day bring the television here to see the conditions that we're forced

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to live in.

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And I mean, they're giving you accommodation for free, but of course, you're going to share

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a room with four other people and it's not going to be like a five-star hotel.

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And if you get accommodation, there are also places where you don't get the accommodation,

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you know?

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So they did these two scandals.

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They were Aponiente and Azurmendi, and they kind of like put journalists into the houses

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where they were living.

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And they tried, they really tried to make like a real scandal out of this and putting

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like the modern slavery concept in the mouth of people.

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And there was like a lot of controversy on social media.

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And at the end, it was nothing because this is really like a first world problem and a

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middle class people problem.

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Nobody goes there to do a stash if you're not middle class because you need some money

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to do that, you know?

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Absolutely.

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Yeah, that's exactly the thing.

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That's always what I said also.

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It's a first world problem.

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It's kind of like, oh, you have the freedom to work and spend your time like for free

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without getting paid, just so you get some valuable experience and get to meet people

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and get to do cool shit, you know, and like work at a really, really special place.

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It's like, wow, boo hoo, you know?

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Like go work somewhere else.

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You can choose what you want to do.

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I remember a lot of magical moments in these places of watching super ultra high level

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talented people doing their job, like, you know, butchering a fish or managing a service

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or even the organizations, know structures of a restaurant.

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Like anything else in some places it was amazing.

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In other places it was an absolute mess.

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You learn from both things that you will learn in any kitchen, things like leadership or

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how to work in team or these kinds of things.

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I mean, these are like your first steps, I would say in the real world outside of a school

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or, you know, like at home you're suddenly exposed to the real market and real people

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working in real context, you know?

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Yeah, absolutely.

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Absolutely.

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Yeah.

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And it's kind of like, this is weird attitude towards these sorts of things where I feel

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like people, they pretend like they are obligated to do these things, you know?

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There was a scandal in the UK not long ago, I think like maybe four or five years ago,

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regarding a super super famous restaurant, like one of the most successful restaurants

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in the UK and in the world about a pastry chef who started them and was then complaining

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that they were doing long hours, that the pressure was very high, that when he was making

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mistakes that people were, you know, not chilled about it and that he had to do the same tasks

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every day and they had to be perfect and that because he had to do, like I remember one

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thing that he or she, I can't remember what they complained about, was that he had to

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do the same task and it hurt his wrist, you know?

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And it was a big thing, it was like a big article about it, it was a little bit of a

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scandal and I remember I got actually, because at the time I was in London and I got interviewed

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about this as like one of like many people, like what their opinion is on it and I was

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sort of like, well, I don't know how anybody's surprised, everybody likes to jump on board

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and blame the restaurant, you know?

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And like, you know, before that I want to say it's obviously super important that like

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there's good working conditions that, you know, people don't work a ridiculous amount

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of hours, etc. etc.

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That's super super important.

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But if you go to one of the best restaurants in the country and in the world, you know,

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you expect it to be low pressure, you expect there to be a medium amount of standards.

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No, like you need to be taken care of and you don't have a work-life balance, but obviously

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there's going to be pressure to deliver.

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But isn't that the reason why you go there?

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Exactly.

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Imagine, imagine going to train with the Barca football team and say, oh, I had to run all

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day, you know?

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It's like, it's just hilarious.

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Yeah.

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And it's like, well, if you don't like, you can't have both things.

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You can't be top of the top and work in the best restaurant and then be sort of like,

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oh, well, but I don't actually want to, you know, apply myself.

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I don't actually want to push.

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I don't want to walk the walk to be that, you know?

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Yeah, exactly.

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And it just, it just doesn't work that way, you know?

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And like I said, it's a super important subject that like pressure is good to a certain point

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too much pressure is not good at all.

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And it's like, it's our job and the restaurant world, especially, you know, to find a balance

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because you know, people are the most valuable thing that we work with and you know, people

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have to be safe and they have to be healthy and they have to be good, right?

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But a certain amount of pressure is also very, very beneficial because it keeps pushing you

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and keeps moving you forward.

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Doesn't have to be in a nasty way.

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Doesn't have to be in an abusive way.

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Can be productive pressure.

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But you know, pressure, you know, it creates change and it creates, you know, a development.

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It creates progress forwards.

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Well, that's also something super important.

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You just mentioned about the conditions because it's not the same starting anywhere.

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I would say like in, in, in good restaurants, it is expected that whoever is at the moment

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you chef the party or whoever is mentoring you, that he will guide you and answer questions,

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technical questions and these kinds of things and that kind of mentor apprentice or that

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kind of pedagogic relationship between the intern and the worker.

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I think it's super important, not only from a philanthropical point of view, but also

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because it's in a practical way, you want your, the, the, the person that is helping

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you out to understand the processes so that they can properly execute them.

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Right?

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I mean, and it's also super common.

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You will see when you go to this super professional restaurants where you see actual even Michelin

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star chefs or head chefs that are staging in these places, there's like a super mutual

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respect for this curiosity and knowledge hunger of trying to understand what are you doing

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here?

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What is sauce made and so on.

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Absolutely.

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Absolutely.

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And of course there's, you know, that's like a very like beneficial aspect of traveling,

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but then, you know, there's also downsides, I think, to this whole like approach of traveling

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00:14:46,520 --> 00:14:50,840
a lot and staging a lot, you know, it's because obviously you get a lot of impressions and

228
00:14:50,840 --> 00:14:56,240
you get to see a lot, but I think it's also created a little bit of a false expectation

229
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for people.

230
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I saw, you know, nowadays and also back when I was still staging, I saw a lot of people

231
00:15:02,200 --> 00:15:07,520
who would, you know, start cooking and like, you know, maybe a commie and then maybe decide

232
00:15:07,520 --> 00:15:11,320
to start a little bit, then they do like three months Mugarets, three months Noma.

233
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They feel gods.

234
00:15:12,320 --> 00:15:14,120
They feel like, yeah.

235
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And then they want to be a sous chef, you know, and then they want to start somewhere

236
00:15:17,560 --> 00:15:20,100
and be a sous chef with like 23.

237
00:15:20,100 --> 00:15:23,100
And it's like, well, you know, there's definitely people who can do that, but it's sort of like,

238
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what does it, what does it, what does it mean to be a sous chef?

239
00:15:25,480 --> 00:15:28,480
You know, they love to talk about the places that are the thing.

240
00:15:28,480 --> 00:15:31,640
Well, we used to do this in Mugarets, this and that way.

241
00:15:31,640 --> 00:15:33,680
And it's like, exactly.

242
00:15:33,680 --> 00:15:39,960
And you use this name that somebody has worked in incredibly intensely for to create.

243
00:15:39,960 --> 00:15:44,880
And you use that as like a banner, but you've actually not really created anything for yourself.

244
00:15:44,880 --> 00:15:50,280
You've just spent some time and that's like, that's valuable also, but it's actually not,

245
00:15:50,280 --> 00:15:56,080
it's not you, you know, like it's like you take parts of it, but it's not enough.

246
00:15:56,080 --> 00:15:59,280
And you know, you see that with people from culinary school also, you know, they go through

247
00:15:59,280 --> 00:16:02,840
three or four years of culinary school and then they really expect to go out into the

248
00:16:02,840 --> 00:16:06,240
world and become like a sous chef or a head chef, you know?

249
00:16:06,240 --> 00:16:07,240
Yeah.

250
00:16:07,240 --> 00:16:10,800
And, and this kind of profile always wants to skip the nasty work.

251
00:16:10,800 --> 00:16:16,640
You know, if you have to peel a sack of potatoes that will take half an hour or one hour to

252
00:16:16,640 --> 00:16:17,640
do or this kind of thing.

253
00:16:17,640 --> 00:16:21,760
So those are the things that nobody wants to do at no moment because it's kind of like,

254
00:16:21,760 --> 00:16:26,720
I don't know what, but well, my friend, that's part of cooking, you know, like.

255
00:16:26,720 --> 00:16:27,840
Yeah, of course.

256
00:16:27,840 --> 00:16:31,840
And it's kind of like, they've like, they're like in the fast lane and they skipped all

257
00:16:31,840 --> 00:16:35,840
they think because they, you know, oh, I did three months of stage and that was really

258
00:16:35,840 --> 00:16:38,400
hard, you know, and they think they can skip all of that stuff.

259
00:16:38,400 --> 00:16:41,600
But it's kind of like, well, at some point, you know, sort of like in your career, you're

260
00:16:41,600 --> 00:16:44,960
cooking, you're cooking, you're cooking at one day, you want to be the guy who stands

261
00:16:44,960 --> 00:16:49,200
there in his fancy jacket at the pass and looks at all the sections and calls the tickets

262
00:16:49,200 --> 00:16:50,740
and checks everything.

263
00:16:50,740 --> 00:16:58,000
But if you've not gone through every single section and know you have a absolute fundamental

264
00:16:58,000 --> 00:17:04,360
sharpness and understanding, technical understanding of everything that's going on, you know, how

265
00:17:04,360 --> 00:17:09,200
are you meant to, you know, have any management and any overview over anything that's going

266
00:17:09,200 --> 00:17:10,200
on.

267
00:17:10,200 --> 00:17:14,160
You should be able to see just like from the past, you know, the guy on the, on the fish

268
00:17:14,160 --> 00:17:17,160
section that the way that he's searing the fish, that it's not quite right, you know,

269
00:17:17,160 --> 00:17:20,680
and you can only do that by standing there and searing fish, you know, and just cooking

270
00:17:20,680 --> 00:17:25,000
and cooking and looking for that like sweet spot, you know, and I think like people just

271
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skip that and they absolutely forget about really the substance of like the craft, you

272
00:17:31,680 --> 00:17:32,800
know.

273
00:17:32,800 --> 00:17:36,120
They think they know it, they have all these like concepts and ideas and they see all these

274
00:17:36,120 --> 00:17:40,920
like beautiful ideas and blah and these beautiful dishes, but the real like substance of like

275
00:17:40,920 --> 00:17:44,640
what the, because cooking is a craft after all, you know, of what it makes, like they

276
00:17:44,640 --> 00:17:46,460
completely forget about that.

277
00:17:46,460 --> 00:17:51,360
And that you don't have this like, you know, like Fergus Henderson says, the Jedi sense,

278
00:17:51,360 --> 00:17:58,240
like just in intimate understanding of a process or a technique or whatever, you know, that's

279
00:17:58,240 --> 00:18:02,120
they just don't have that and how should they, because they never lived it, you know.

280
00:18:02,120 --> 00:18:03,120
Yeah, exactly.

281
00:18:03,120 --> 00:18:07,440
I mean, like to understand a process, to really understand it, you have to do it a hundred

282
00:18:07,440 --> 00:18:14,080
times and it has happened to me a lot of times that processes that I think I understand years

283
00:18:14,080 --> 00:18:19,800
later, someone comes and, and proves that I had no idea about it, you know, like that

284
00:18:19,800 --> 00:18:25,200
was like a key point that I just misunderstood and was doing incorrect, you know, like.

285
00:18:25,200 --> 00:18:26,200
Yeah.

286
00:18:26,200 --> 00:18:31,040
It's like Bruce Lee said, you know, I don't fear the guy who practiced a thousand kicks

287
00:18:31,040 --> 00:18:32,040
one time.

288
00:18:32,040 --> 00:18:34,800
I fear the guy who practiced one kick a thousand times.

289
00:18:34,800 --> 00:18:36,240
And it's just like that.

290
00:18:36,240 --> 00:18:39,360
It's sort of like, I don't fear the guy who cooked a thousand fish one time.

291
00:18:39,360 --> 00:18:42,280
I fear the guy who cooked one fish a thousand times.

292
00:18:42,280 --> 00:18:44,320
That's the guy I respect.

293
00:18:44,320 --> 00:18:49,040
That's super important about a staging also, because I mean, staging.

294
00:18:49,040 --> 00:18:54,880
You will do crappy tasks and you will have people telling you exactly how to do it and

295
00:18:54,880 --> 00:18:57,760
not in a different way, but that way.

296
00:18:57,760 --> 00:19:01,900
And then you will go to one place and they will tell you the, the, the potatoes have

297
00:19:01,900 --> 00:19:03,760
to be peeled downwards.

298
00:19:03,760 --> 00:19:07,040
And then you go to another place and they will tell you, you have to do it in a spiral

299
00:19:07,040 --> 00:19:08,040
way.

300
00:19:08,040 --> 00:19:11,360
And if you do it in some other way, you're just retarded.

301
00:19:11,360 --> 00:19:16,160
Actually, those experiences are the ones that build your criteria.

302
00:19:16,160 --> 00:19:21,720
You know that later you will realize that just these two guys were retarded, not you.

303
00:19:21,720 --> 00:19:29,320
And you will peel the potato however you feel it's better for your restaurant concept or

304
00:19:29,320 --> 00:19:31,520
the operation you're managing basically.

305
00:19:31,520 --> 00:19:32,520
Yeah.

306
00:19:32,520 --> 00:19:33,520
Yeah, absolutely.

307
00:19:33,520 --> 00:19:38,000
And also like this whole like, you know, title thing of kind of like, you know, I'm a sous

308
00:19:38,000 --> 00:19:42,440
chef here, I'm a junior, demi sous chef there, you know, it's not the same being a sous chef

309
00:19:42,440 --> 00:19:48,440
at Mougaritz than it is being a sous chef at La Strasse, you know, or La Perche, you

310
00:19:48,440 --> 00:19:50,080
know, it's not the same.

311
00:19:50,080 --> 00:19:52,360
Or in a five star hotel for sure.

312
00:19:52,360 --> 00:19:53,360
Yeah.

313
00:19:53,360 --> 00:19:54,360
Exactly.

314
00:19:54,360 --> 00:19:58,720
Or in a super busy bistro, you know, like it's, it's very, very different.

315
00:19:58,720 --> 00:20:04,420
And I think it would be really beneficial for all of the restaurant world, whether Michelin

316
00:20:04,420 --> 00:20:09,000
or Casual or whatever, everything in between, whether people would just concentrate a little

317
00:20:09,000 --> 00:20:15,440
bit more on like the core of it of, you know, cooking and making really nice things and

318
00:20:15,440 --> 00:20:19,640
having a clean and organized restaurant and you know, feeding people and being nice to

319
00:20:19,640 --> 00:20:23,560
each other, you know, and everything else is bullshit, you know, everything else doesn't

320
00:20:23,560 --> 00:20:26,400
matter whether you're called a sous chef, you know, it's kind of like, yeah, I can call

321
00:20:26,400 --> 00:20:31,840
you a sous chef, but like you're still, you know, like whether you, if you still do like

322
00:20:31,840 --> 00:20:35,000
a job, like a shitty chef to party, it doesn't matter whether you're called a sous chef or

323
00:20:35,000 --> 00:20:36,680
not, you're still doing a shit job.

324
00:20:36,680 --> 00:20:42,320
Yeah, the other topic that perhaps we could talk about is about how long to stash and

325
00:20:42,320 --> 00:20:47,360
how many places like I remember when I was at that point, like in junior high school

326
00:20:47,360 --> 00:20:53,080
and thinking about this kind of things, I saw an interview with Charlie Trotters and

327
00:20:53,080 --> 00:20:57,080
he said like something like, yeah, stay in a restaurant.

328
00:20:57,080 --> 00:20:58,440
He was not even talking about stashing.

329
00:20:58,440 --> 00:21:04,240
He was talking about working and living like stay in a restaurant as long as you have something

330
00:21:04,240 --> 00:21:09,520
to learn and when you reach the point that you already know everything and in some restaurants,

331
00:21:09,520 --> 00:21:15,120
especially as an apprentice, you can reach that point because there is a top, but perhaps

332
00:21:15,120 --> 00:21:19,480
there are things that they won't let you do as an apprentice.

333
00:21:19,480 --> 00:21:25,640
And if you reach that top, well, leave, go somewhere else and never stay in a place where

334
00:21:25,640 --> 00:21:30,800
you feel that you're being used or where you feel that they don't want you there.

335
00:21:30,800 --> 00:21:33,200
Just leave and go somewhere else.

336
00:21:33,200 --> 00:21:39,960
And well, then I knew a lot of people that for the stash, like I did like for three years

337
00:21:39,960 --> 00:21:42,680
in different places to learn different things.

338
00:21:42,680 --> 00:21:46,760
And for me, that was super interesting because I did hotels, I did different concepts of

339
00:21:46,760 --> 00:21:51,880
restaurants, I did Michelin star restaurants, I did three Michelin star restaurants.

340
00:21:51,880 --> 00:21:54,720
Like I did all of these things like in a period of three years.

341
00:21:54,720 --> 00:21:58,680
So and after that, it was not just super easy to get a job.

342
00:21:58,680 --> 00:22:00,280
It was also super easy.

343
00:22:00,280 --> 00:22:05,680
I remember just after that sequence of working in all these different restaurants, I went

344
00:22:05,680 --> 00:22:12,600
to work in a super easy going Spanish restaurant in Berlin and I was able to make my own weekly

345
00:22:12,600 --> 00:22:15,840
menu and I could do whatever I want.

346
00:22:15,840 --> 00:22:20,920
And that was also super relaxing after being in this kind of restaurants.

347
00:22:20,920 --> 00:22:21,920
And it's what I wanted.

348
00:22:21,920 --> 00:22:25,640
I mean, there's people that works only at the Michelin star level all their lives, you

349
00:22:25,640 --> 00:22:27,520
know, and that's also fine.

350
00:22:27,520 --> 00:22:32,920
Yeah, it's I think it's an interesting topic is like, I think, you know, like we said,

351
00:22:32,920 --> 00:22:37,120
I think studying can be very beneficial, but I think it's a totally fair point of like,

352
00:22:37,120 --> 00:22:42,480
you know, when I kind of think back to like how I did it when I was younger, is I starved

353
00:22:42,480 --> 00:22:46,680
quite a lot and I traveled a lot especially and I jumped around a lot, you know, one year

354
00:22:46,680 --> 00:22:49,080
here, two years here.

355
00:22:49,080 --> 00:22:53,400
And that it gave me a lot of things and that I'm very grateful for.

356
00:22:53,400 --> 00:22:58,080
But also, I, you know, I did it that way because it kind of just happened that way and I'm

357
00:22:58,080 --> 00:23:03,760
also kind of that's just how I was and how I am, you know.

358
00:23:03,760 --> 00:23:08,480
But really, I would think looking back, I kind of think, but like for a certain time,

359
00:23:08,480 --> 00:23:13,240
I should have just stayed in one place and just really applied myself, you know, and

360
00:23:13,240 --> 00:23:17,360
just stuck it out and worked through because even if you get to the point where you think,

361
00:23:17,360 --> 00:23:20,120
oh, I know everything, you know, there's not that much more that you can teach.

362
00:23:20,120 --> 00:23:25,120
There's small things that you can still learn and if you pick a place that's really, really,

363
00:23:25,120 --> 00:23:30,320
really good, you know, where you really feel passionate about what they do, then I think

364
00:23:30,320 --> 00:23:32,520
it's also worth staying longer.

365
00:23:32,520 --> 00:23:36,240
And I wish I kind of had done that in my career, you know, it didn't happen also because I

366
00:23:36,240 --> 00:23:40,560
didn't find the right place, but it's definitely very, very beneficial.

367
00:23:40,560 --> 00:23:44,160
And people are like very focused on staging and traveling and stuff, but it's also very,

368
00:23:44,160 --> 00:23:49,560
very good to just pick a place and stay there for a little bit because it'll really, really

369
00:23:49,560 --> 00:23:51,960
shape you and like the foundation, you know?

370
00:23:51,960 --> 00:23:53,640
Yeah, I also agree on that.

371
00:23:53,640 --> 00:23:58,040
I was very unstable for a long time, like doing three months, six months, three months,

372
00:23:58,040 --> 00:24:01,120
six months and many, many, many different places.

373
00:24:01,120 --> 00:24:07,520
And then there is also like things you learn only after you did like the whole year in

374
00:24:07,520 --> 00:24:10,680
a place or a second or a third year, you know, like, yeah.

375
00:24:10,680 --> 00:24:11,680
Yeah, for sure.

376
00:24:11,680 --> 00:24:15,200
But then again, you know, like, like you get from staging, you get things that you would

377
00:24:15,200 --> 00:24:16,920
never otherwise get, you know?

378
00:24:16,920 --> 00:24:21,960
I mean, look at like my time in Japan, you know, there is absolutely no way that I would

379
00:24:21,960 --> 00:24:27,440
have ever gotten a job in Japan, let alone in a three Michelin star restaurant if I wouldn't

380
00:24:27,440 --> 00:24:30,920
have come there as a stage because that's the only way you get in.

381
00:24:30,920 --> 00:24:36,800
Not speaking any Japanese, not being from Japan, you know, went there and after a while

382
00:24:36,800 --> 00:24:37,800
like applied myself.

383
00:24:37,800 --> 00:24:45,600
I mean, fuck, you know, it's kind of like the most extreme staging circumstances because

384
00:24:45,600 --> 00:24:48,800
like you get to Japan, they're sort of like, okay, you're going to peel daikon and you're

385
00:24:48,800 --> 00:24:50,200
like, okay.

386
00:24:50,200 --> 00:24:51,200
And what else?

387
00:24:51,200 --> 00:24:52,200
Yeah, nothing else.

388
00:24:52,200 --> 00:24:53,600
You're just going to peel daikon radishes.

389
00:24:53,600 --> 00:24:54,600
That's all you're going to do.

390
00:24:54,600 --> 00:24:55,600
Until you die.

391
00:24:55,600 --> 00:24:57,280
Yeah, until you just fucking die.

392
00:24:57,280 --> 00:25:00,600
And if you fuck it up, you know, it's sort of like, we get to peel it again, then you

393
00:25:00,600 --> 00:25:05,360
clean and then you stand there and you see whether you get that you're not in the way.

394
00:25:05,360 --> 00:25:11,640
And if you just do it and you do it really well, you know, then they get to like, then

395
00:25:11,640 --> 00:25:14,600
you get to do other things, you know, but if you can't start at the bottom, it's like

396
00:25:14,600 --> 00:25:17,240
with Mugaritz with the paeta, you know, the paeta isn't folded.

397
00:25:17,240 --> 00:25:18,680
How are you going to do anything else?

398
00:25:18,680 --> 00:25:20,160
If your section isn't organized, like how-

399
00:25:20,160 --> 00:25:22,960
Wait, wait, wait, wait, we have to make a parenthesis and explain that because a lot

400
00:25:22,960 --> 00:25:25,920
of people just don't understand what you're talking about.

401
00:25:25,920 --> 00:25:28,200
And I think it's super interesting.

402
00:25:28,200 --> 00:25:29,860
How do you say paeta in English?

403
00:25:29,860 --> 00:25:31,160
Like cleaning cloth or-

404
00:25:31,160 --> 00:25:32,760
Yeah, like a wiping cloth.

405
00:25:32,760 --> 00:25:33,760
Yeah.

406
00:25:33,760 --> 00:25:34,760
Like a wiping cloth.

407
00:25:34,760 --> 00:25:43,040
Oh, in Mugaritz, there is this culture about like a specific way of folding the wiping

408
00:25:43,040 --> 00:25:45,320
cloth, the yellow standard ones.

409
00:25:45,320 --> 00:25:50,160
And actually, if you see any pictures of the kitchen of Mugaritz, you will see this perfectly

410
00:25:50,160 --> 00:25:56,680
squared yellow wiping cloths in every strategic corner of the kitchen.

411
00:25:56,680 --> 00:25:59,520
When I was back then, we already had that.

412
00:25:59,520 --> 00:26:08,120
This was 2005, but it evolved into developing an own methodology of folding it to the point

413
00:26:08,120 --> 00:26:13,800
that it has become like a cult thing where there is people that get tattoos of the way

414
00:26:13,800 --> 00:26:16,560
of folding the wiping cloth of Mugaritz.

415
00:26:16,560 --> 00:26:17,560
Okay, go on.

416
00:26:17,560 --> 00:26:22,480
Well, yeah, but it's like, you know, it seems kind of stupid, but it like, there's a meaning

417
00:26:22,480 --> 00:26:23,480
behind it, you know?

418
00:26:23,480 --> 00:26:26,040
And it's kind of like, well, you know, it's philosophical.

419
00:26:26,040 --> 00:26:28,680
It's kind of like you start with the simple things.

420
00:26:28,680 --> 00:26:29,680
It is.

421
00:26:29,680 --> 00:26:35,240
For me specifically, that kitchen has like, in this way of doing things, there is like

422
00:26:35,240 --> 00:26:39,600
a Tao in it, like a way to knowledge.

423
00:26:39,600 --> 00:26:44,760
And if you do things like they're supposed to be done and everything works, then you

424
00:26:44,760 --> 00:26:46,600
say, ah, okay, I get it.

425
00:26:46,600 --> 00:26:52,000
You know, like, but this is very strange to see kitchens with that level of methodology

426
00:26:52,000 --> 00:26:58,920
and operation to that obsessive level, probably in Japan, I can't imagine as well.

427
00:26:58,920 --> 00:27:03,760
Yeah, but also you need to have the capabilities, you know, if you have three people cooking

428
00:27:03,760 --> 00:27:08,040
in a restaurant, like, you know, in a kitchen, then, you know, there's not, if there's,

429
00:27:08,040 --> 00:27:11,240
you know, 50 people in the kitchen, you can have these sorts of things and have them a

430
00:27:11,240 --> 00:27:16,840
little bit more standardized, you know, because there's more room to, but yeah, I think it's

431
00:27:16,840 --> 00:27:18,040
a very good metaphor.

432
00:27:18,040 --> 00:27:21,040
It's kind of like, you have to start with the foundations.

433
00:27:21,040 --> 00:27:22,040
What are the foundations?

434
00:27:22,040 --> 00:27:25,440
Your section is set up, everything's organized, everything's clean.

435
00:27:25,440 --> 00:27:31,440
The paietta is folded like that for a reason, because it's the most comfortable shape for

436
00:27:31,440 --> 00:27:34,480
you to use it quickly and efficiently to keep your station clean.

437
00:27:34,480 --> 00:27:37,600
If your station isn't clean, how are you going to move to anything else?

438
00:27:37,600 --> 00:27:42,240
How are you going to even think about grilling the fish or, you know, like all that sort

439
00:27:42,240 --> 00:27:43,240
of stuff?

440
00:27:43,240 --> 00:27:46,120
Clean and ordered, because it also looks nice.

441
00:27:46,120 --> 00:27:47,120
It's not just clean.

442
00:27:47,120 --> 00:27:51,960
It also, it's everything like properly placed.

443
00:27:51,960 --> 00:27:53,800
You have to, you can't start with the roof.

444
00:27:53,800 --> 00:27:57,440
You have to start with the foundation and the foundation should be that, you know.

445
00:27:57,440 --> 00:28:01,520
So the other thing I wanted to talk about is what's the name of these guys in Germany

446
00:28:01,520 --> 00:28:08,280
and German countries with the Panda Jarre, you know, these guys with this.

447
00:28:08,280 --> 00:28:09,280
What's the name of this?

448
00:28:09,280 --> 00:28:10,280
Zimmermann.

449
00:28:10,280 --> 00:28:11,280
Zimmermann.

450
00:28:11,280 --> 00:28:12,280
They're basically carpenters.

451
00:28:12,280 --> 00:28:13,280
Yeah.

452
00:28:13,280 --> 00:28:14,280
Carpenters, exactly.

453
00:28:14,280 --> 00:28:19,200
Yeah, I think it's super interesting because it's this, you see them a lot in Germany.

454
00:28:19,200 --> 00:28:21,880
They have like this medieval way of dressing.

455
00:28:21,880 --> 00:28:26,440
What's the name of this style of trousers?

456
00:28:26,440 --> 00:28:27,960
Like clock, can you say that?

457
00:28:27,960 --> 00:28:28,960
Clock trousers or?

458
00:28:28,960 --> 00:28:34,520
Well, they look like trousers from the sixties, their pants.

459
00:28:34,520 --> 00:28:37,960
You will see them when there is like some construction, there's always some of these

460
00:28:37,960 --> 00:28:39,840
guys working there.

461
00:28:39,840 --> 00:28:45,280
You might think it's a sect or something like that and in some way it is.

462
00:28:45,280 --> 00:28:50,320
But what they have is that they're kind of like, I would compare it with Amish.

463
00:28:50,320 --> 00:28:54,520
So to get like a reference that can be comparable or something like that, like this ancient

464
00:28:54,520 --> 00:28:58,280
religion way of living and being.

465
00:28:58,280 --> 00:29:04,240
So the thing is when they're young, they leave their village for three years and they're

466
00:29:04,240 --> 00:29:09,240
not allowed to have any money for those three years.

467
00:29:09,240 --> 00:29:11,000
They go to different carpentry masters.

468
00:29:11,000 --> 00:29:14,920
I understand they're carpenters, but also other type of works.

469
00:29:14,920 --> 00:29:19,160
I don't know if construction works and things, but carpentry is the most famous.

470
00:29:19,160 --> 00:29:24,900
They go to different carpentry masters to learn a new thing from each one.

471
00:29:24,900 --> 00:29:30,200
And after three years, they're allowed to go home to their home village and they have

472
00:29:30,200 --> 00:29:32,640
to build a masterpiece.

473
00:29:32,640 --> 00:29:36,880
And that's the way they concluded their learning journey.

474
00:29:36,880 --> 00:29:41,760
And I think that's a super nice thing to preserve like this way.

475
00:29:41,760 --> 00:29:49,480
Like doing that in a culinary way, in a structured way where you really do that.

476
00:29:49,480 --> 00:29:54,280
You know, that you went to different restaurants and came back and perhaps you cook a whole

477
00:29:54,280 --> 00:29:55,280
menu.

478
00:29:55,280 --> 00:29:56,960
I mean, it makes perfectly sense to me.

479
00:29:56,960 --> 00:30:00,880
I think that's a really nice comparison, you know, because it's like you go from artisan

480
00:30:00,880 --> 00:30:06,720
to artisan and everybody has their own style and their own specialization.

481
00:30:06,720 --> 00:30:10,480
And you take all these impressions and adapt them to yourself.

482
00:30:10,480 --> 00:30:15,960
So I think that's just a really nice comparison to, you know, going out into the world and

483
00:30:15,960 --> 00:30:45,320
starving.