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Hi everyone, welcome to pot luck food talks.

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Today we're going to talk about aspergillus orisaea sun.

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Yeah fermentation man.

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Fermentation crazy subject no?

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Yeah what's the deal with fermentations?

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Yeah what is the deal with fermentation?

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You know like a couple of months ago on Instagram I saw somebody like comment, I don't remember

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where it was but like under a food picture sort of like, oh why does everything have

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to be fermented?

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Fermentation is the most overrated thing in cooking and I was like well that's just a

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really stupid thing to say.

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Exactly.

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That's just a really dumb thing to say.

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Exactly.

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Yeah it's just very uneducated because like fermentation is not just making like a soy

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sauce out of distilled habanero peppers you know, it's in so many things you know.

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So many things we take for granted like olives, wine, bread, chocolate, coffee you know like

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so many things.

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Yeah cultured butter you know and I remember like I don't often comment on the Instagram

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posts you know or like I never start sort of like keyboard warriors sort of moments

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but I was just kind of like yeah it's just very uneducated and he was like oh well you

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know like I was like well you eat bread you know and he's like whoa but yeah but you know

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that being said I also get his point.

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Fermentation has been I feel like a lot of people hide behind fermentation they're sort

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of like oh I'm going to lacto ferment this and put it I'm going to lacto ferment these

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blueberries and then you know they put it on a plate it tastes disgusting you know.

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It's just like with everything else it's a skill that you have to get right but it's

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a whole universe you know like fermentation is crazy crazy subject.

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Absolutely I mean it's like the universe of microbiology so it's as broad as it gets.

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Yeah I mean things I like to do like at home I like to do my own kimchi but I mean I don't

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get crazy about it I buy bottle kimchi base and just mix it with napa cabbage and I make

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my own like that that style of kimchi.

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It's pretty cool another thing that I do is like fermenting my own cream like sour cream.

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Oh you really do?

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Yeah like with that's really nice like with kefir and just leaving it outside like for

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two days like in a glass and then you have like this fermented cream it's really nice.

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Oh sorry I didn't realize I was talking to David Silbert you know.

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That's really cool man I haven't I've never tried that that's awesome.

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One thing that I learned is to lacto ferment anything you just need to use two percent

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of salt of the weight of whatever you're doing you can use more but that's like a sweet spot

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in the level of saltiness and also the level of activity of the bacteria that fermentates

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the food your fermenting thing and for whatever to do sauerkraut or just cucumber pickles

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or whatever that's that's the amount of salt I usually use.

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Yeah for sure me too I usually I always learned it was like between two percent and two point

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five I usually go for two point three percent for a lot of things just because I found that

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two point five sometimes it gets a little bit too salty and I two point three kind of

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works well for me but I also I use it for quite a lot of stuff I mean like if I make

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sauerkraut you know choucroute you know you can basically make out of almost anything

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doesn't have to be white cabbage you know like we used to collect you know like broccoli

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leaves and stuff like that and just sort of like cabbage off cuts and then just like shred

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them all together like Brussels sprouts off cuts and then just make like a mixed cabbage

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sauerkraut and so easy because you just shred the stuff you weigh it you weigh out two point

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two point three percent of that weight you add it you crunch it you press it you let

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it ferment it's just important that it doesn't get into contact with too much that's why

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you usually press it down let the liquid of the product rise up so it's submerged and

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like that you can do anything you know like right now at the restaurant we're doing this

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very simple tomato salad but out of from all the off cuts of the tomatoes I take those

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and I do the same thing I kind of like chop them I add just a tiny bit of garlic tiny

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bit of like spring onion and like aromatics like a little bit of coriander and then I

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add two point three percent salt just mix it and keep it at room temperature for like

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a day at the moment it's a day because it's very warm and it just starts to lightly ferment

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really really quickly because of the onion and the the sugar and the tomatoes and stuff

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and it just becomes like a little bit sour and salty and kind of fresh and very umami

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ish and then I hang that and I've got a fermented tomato water that I make a dressing with you

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know a vinaigrette and it's super super tasty and it's just like a super simple way of using

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fermentation to kind of superpower flavor you know I encourage you to try what I told

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you I don't know it's just if it's food safe to do it in a restaurant but like well don't

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worry we do a lot of things that aren't food safe I mean cream and 20 percent of its weight

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with kefir or yogurt of any kind and I leave it two days outside of the fridge and then

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you have like this whole fermented cream it's really nice that's awesome yeah I mean I'll

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definitely give that a try because we get really nice raw milk at the restaurant and

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it can even you know like separate so you are you have like this what's the name of

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that whey like the yeah this water this liquid that and and also this like fermented butter

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so if you if you if you're using cream yeah super nice and that with with some kind of

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chili man it's the best thing in the world oh really yeah like this ferment the dairy

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making like like a hot sauce out of it man like with so ever late with potatoes or arepas

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or this kind of things it's just the best thing in the world it sounds crazy it sounds

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really good so we haven't spoken about mr. koji mr. koji yeah the the guy who the famous

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blacksmith that lives in the mountains what is koji it's a mold right I mean koji is

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you use a mold to make koji I mean koji is basically a starter culture I think you could

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say I have to be a little bit careful what what I say so that the fermentation freaks

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don't rip my head off you know but like I would say that koji is a starter culture that

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you make and traditionally it's made out of rice and a fungus spore that's called aspergillus

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or as I that's basically just a mushroom and this mushroom it needs something to feed on

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and that's why you take rice you steam it you inoculate the rice with the mushroom the

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mushroom starts munching away at this rice nom nom nom just like yeah the Chinese buffet

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and then kind of like the rice gets covered in this like white fluff if everything goes

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right it's the fungus comes taking over and then yeah which looks like actually if you

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if somebody doesn't know what's going on it looks disgusting because it's like this white

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velvet that you will find and forgotten oranges in your fridge growing in your rice and you

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then you have like this white carpet in your rice of white velvet it's like oh this is

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perfect this is exactly what we need that's basically what koji is yeah totally but that

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that's actually an interesting point because it's kind of like it just really depends on

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your viewpoint you know of kind of like what what things are and what their purpose is

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you know because koji if you know what it is and you know what it can do and you don't

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see it as a bad thing like i think it looks really beautiful you know this like white

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fluffy rice like if it's made right it looks really amazing also because i know that it's

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quite difficult to make koji right i've made it and then you have rice that's kind of like

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black and yellow and white and and you're like oh my god what is this it's like you're

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growing a fucking monstrosity in your yeah and it's fucking dangerous because you can

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get whatever kind of of crazy fungus mix with the whatever you're doing absolutely yeah

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it's it's really to be taken seriously like food safety is to be taken very very seriously

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but yeah you know if it's done right it's very beautiful and just depends like how you

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look at it you know so by doing we haven't explained what it is so koji koji is one of

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the key ingredients of i would say of the japanese flavor profile that far i would go

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because it's it's the base of soy sauce miso sake and mirin which are all staple ingredients

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in japanese cuisine absolutely and and koji is the ingredient this what we just mentioned

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this white velvet that grows around rice this fungus is the one that gave them key aromas

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like this i would say citrus aromas that we find or fruity aromas that we find in japanese

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soy sauce as opposed to other soy sauce that that are not as pronounced are because of

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koji these these flavor profiles and and also the flavors you you find in sake are also

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directly related to to this fungus so it's kind of like uh it's not yeah it's not directly

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a yeast but it is used kind of like a yeast in order to ferment other things yeah yeah

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absolutely and it's um yeah it's like again it's like a whole universe you know like the

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flavor that you get from fermenting with koji is it's very hard to describe and it's very

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very varied you know it's very deep i mean i've had things that are very like uh like

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soy sauce you know if you've ever had you know a soy sauce that's of very high quality

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you know and that being said there's many different types of soy sauce you know there's

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very light ones very nutty ones very sweet ones very dark ones very bitter ones you know

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absolutely yeah but um you know there's a there's actually a japanese gentleman here

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in berlin who ferments local ingredients in a traditional japanese way and he makes amazing

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stuff it's called mimi ferments and he makes a buckwheat tamari which is like just like

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if you think of tamari you think it's like very dark brown often but this isn't like

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that it's like very sort of chestnut colored light brown and it's just super flavorful

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you know you could like you could zip it from a glass it's it's just so delicate and rich

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in umami i mean umami is really what we're talking about with these sorts of like ferments

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you know absolutely yeah yeah and it's it's so but at the same time it's so delicate you

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know and it's um and the same thing with sake you know like the depth that sake can get

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with like the different yeast cultures and you know the flavor of the rice etc with then

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the alcohol added to it you know i mean not added as in you know externally added but

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through the process it's crazy you know it's a it's a whole science but for us as chefs

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you know it's um it it has broadened our tool cabinet immensely you know i mean at the restaurant

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where i work you know we use koji to ferment a lot of things especially from a sustainability

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point of view we take leftover bread and we make a bread koji water which also tastes

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like soy sauce you know we've made really crazy stuff like we've taken cooked meat leftover

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on bones that we used for stocks and we pick off this meat and collect it and we ferment

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it and that's actually one of the things that surprised me the most because what came out

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this like rest leftover meat koji water it tastes amazing like it tastes like super high

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quality soy sauce the sort of soy sauce that i've only seen in japan and it's like really

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hard to find like to buy outside of the country and it's like when you have something like

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that to work with you know it's like it it opens up a whole new world for you have you

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seen the koji onigiri that noma was doing in japan koji onigiri yeah what is it so you

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know you know onigiri you know these like triangular rice cakes right yeah basically

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just rice that's like slightly seasoned with salt usually sometimes it's filled also they

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pack it into like this triangular shape and they like wrap a piece of nori around it right

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yeah yeah so it's kind of like round and a little bit wavy you know and so what noma

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did is they made a sweet onigiri but the outside is all koji it's just the white koji fluff

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okay it looks super beautiful it looks like an onigiri that's completely covered in koji

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but the way they were making it is super crazy um i i got some inside information on this

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what they did was they had like a triangular mold and brushed like a koji paste onto it

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and let those molds ferment so that they would have the koji structure on the outside of

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the molds and then carefully with a spatula like take the molds off so you only have this

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like triangular sort of like mushroom structure and then they would fill it and then wrap

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like a leaf around it and give it to you so you would bite into it and you would just

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have the cover of the koji and then inside the filling and what was the filling i'm not

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sure it was something sweet i think it was like ice cream or something like that okay

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that sounds insane super crazy yeah and i mean like it's also you have this like really

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fluffy kind of nice texture on the outside kind of like a camembert you know yeah yeah

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yeah that reminds me of this rotten what was it rotten apple from mugaritz oh yeah yeah

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the penicillus apple was it apple or pear it was apple that was inoculated with um the

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blue cheese spore exactly have you tried it no it's really nice is it yeah i mean if you

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like blue cheese you will like it yeah and if you like apple maybe also you like it too

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if you don't like blue cheese and like apple that won't work what what what did it taste

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like how was it like it tastes like blue cheese like that like yeah or like camembert exactly

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because i've tried different versions of it but yeah whatever um starter you're using

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and you can buy this starters online like camembert or roquefort whatever you just add

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it to milk and you have like a like a sauce with that taste ah cool yeah that's really

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interesting yeah have you ever tried to make like um like have you ever tried to use a

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soda bug or like sort of self-carbonated beverages like making homemade ginger ale or these kind

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of things exactly yeah so you get the carbonization in a bottle by itself you know well for a

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while i i experimented a lot with kombucha so i did many things with kombucha i tried

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kombucha even with dairies or everything you can imagine how did that work with dairy and

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you get like a like a strange yogurt thing good strange oh yeah yeah i mean like i would

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prefer some other types of yogurt i mean it was okay but i don't know if that has any

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kind of consequences because i was just doing this myself you know without any kind of microbiology

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supervision yeah but yeah i did like a ginger ale which was pretty fucking good i remember

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it was only ginger without peeling it with skin and everything and macerated and and

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brown sugar like the browner the better like this moscavado types of sugars yeah and and

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i did kombucha with that with that ginger water that was pretty good cool that sounds

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really nice yeah it's uh it's super cool no it's like um when you get it right and when

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you sort of like bottle something up and it just like starts carbonating by itself like

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i think it's such a rewarding experience yeah yeah i was experimenting with that a lot um

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when i was in mexico because i was really determined to make a non-alcoholic beverage

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pairing for the menu that we had and so i was getting all these fruits and you know

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like um different things and wanted to make all sorts of different stuff i was trying

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to make was and i was making kombucha and just like normal sodas you know and some of

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them worked super well we were fermenting beer also like we're making our own beer uh

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loads of different things we're making um tepache tepache worked really really well

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tepache is also something that's just like a fermented beverage that's very common in

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mexico where you take pineapple with the skin on because the skin is off where all the yeast

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bacterias are oh yeah and you just put it in water with like sugar and like other things

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you know and it starts fermenting and becoming kind of sort of like sweet sour but then what

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i did is like i took the tepache and i bottled it because i wanted to make it carbonate right

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and so how that works for people who who don't really know is that if the bacteria still

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have enough sugar to feed on after you put it in a closed environment the carbon dioxide

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that they produce can't escape and if there's the right if it's the right amount for the

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right space left in the bottle it'll kind of like get absorbed back into the liquid

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and you have like a sparkling liquid as you can maybe imagine that can also be a little

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bit dangerous you know because if the pressure it obviously builds up pressure and if the

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pressure is too high the your bottle might warp or explode which is what happened to

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me like i remember i was i was experimenting with all these different bottles and some

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worked super well like the tepache was absolutely delicious i was so proud of myself like you

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know when you have this bottle and you open it up and it's like and you pour it in it's

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like sparkling you drink it it tastes like fermented pineapple and like sugar and then

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you're like oh my god this is so refreshing it's so delicious and then i got kind of carried

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away and uh i remember we were closed sunday monday and on saturday i was checking the

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bottles i was like oh they're not quite ready yet and so i left them in the mexican summer

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heat and sunday went past like sunday went by and i was like man it's really fucking

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hot and then monday started and i was like okay no i can't wait until tomorrow i have

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to go check on the bottles so i went i locked up the restaurant and i walked in and you

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could see the kitchen from like coming in from the dining room and i could see from

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like far away that the kitchen was just an absolute mess and when i got there i realized

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that almost all the bottles had exploded and there was glass shards stuck in the walls

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and in the ceiling like a fucking shrapnel grenade went off you know and it scared me

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shitless because i was like fuck if this this could have gone off like in the middle of

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the service and then we'd all be dead or maimed or crippled you and everybody's dinner would

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be ruined um and that kind of made me stop stop a while so so yeah but the the ones that

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turned out well they were really delicious but you have to you really have to be careful

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fermentation it can can be pretty dangerous because yeah especially if you don't know

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what you're doing so that there are a lot of procedures uh that yeah that are kind of

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safe but i mean you're always scared because you you're playing around with unpasteurized

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food you know like you don't know if i mean if you don't have a feeling with it or if

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you're learning by yourself it can be kind of like scary you know like not knowing what

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you're doing yeah for sure just like just like foraging you know it's like if you don't

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know what you're eating like don't eat it you know that's like there were so many instances

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where it's like if you're fermenting something you're not sure what you're doing like it's

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it can be really dangerous you know if there's a mushroom on it like i remember one guy that

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i'm not going to mention his name but like one guy i knew from the nordic food lab he

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was kind of like well if it's if it's white mold it's okay but if it's like black or green

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or yellow like maybe don't eat it maybe yeah maybe but um it can be super dangerous you

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know just like foraging is kind of like there's so many times where you pick something up

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and you think you know what it is and you eat it and it's just like even just like the

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bite of a leaf like i remember i bit into something that i thought was sorrow once in

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spain when i was foraging and my whole mouth went numb completely numb i couldn't i couldn't

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move my tongue and it felt like there was like 15 needles poking in my mouth for like

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two hours i couldn't talk you know which was probably good for everybody around me but

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i haven't but for me it wasn't you know but yeah

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that's it for this week's episode of potluck food talks if you like what we're doing make

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