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Hey everybody, this is Joshua Heston.

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And I'm Lisa Martin.

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And this is the Dark Ozarks on the Branson Podcast Network.

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We're an exploration of everything that's dark in history, mysteries, the paranormal,

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and everything else.

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We explore the noir, the unknown, cryptozoology, UFOs, paranormal, and all the dark stuff that

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happens in the Ozarks.

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You can find Dark Ozarks on Branson Podcast Network on Facebook under Dark Ozarks, as

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well as our YouTube channel, Dark Ozarks.

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We'll leave no stone unturned to bring you the dark history, mysteries, and legends of

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the Ozarks.

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Welcome to the Dark Ozarks.

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We are discussing the Oklahoma Ozarks.

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Yes, there are Oklahoma Ozarks.

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We will get back to that in a minute.

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But first we want to remind you that the Dark Ozarks podcast is now available on Branson

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Podcast Network, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, Google Podcasts, Substack, or

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about any other podcast platform.

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So are there more differences between the Oklahoma Ozarks and the Eastern Ozarks than

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there are points in common?

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I think that most people will find more similarities overall from the fact that it was such a rugged

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territory and a place to lose yourself from trouble to the character of the people who

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made it home, to the legends, and to the dark history.

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We will return to the part of the Ozarks you may not have known even existed.

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But first we want to invite you to like, follow, and subscribe to Dark Ozarks on Facebook,

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Instagram, and YouTube, as well as your favorite podcast platforms.

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We also invite you to become a Dark Ozarks subscriber on Facebook.

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On the Dark Ozarks Facebook page, click subscribe, have your login information ready, and join

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Dark Ozarks behind the scenes for only $4.99 per month.

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Your $4.99 per month Facebook subscription allows you to come with us on paranormal investigations,

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deep dive research, and topics too controversial for public view.

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The next 100 subscribers will be entered in a drawing for a free Dark Ozarks t-shirt and

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an exclusive signed first drawing copy of the book Dark Ozarks, The Spook Light.

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Subscribe today to be entered in the drawing.

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And now you can get Dark Ozarks t-shirts for sale at DarkOzarks.com and ParanormalScienceLab.com.

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We encourage you to check out Always Buying Books in Joplin, Missouri, in person and online,

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on Facebook, and at the website, AlwaysBuyingBooks.com, for all of your reading needs, including a

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large section on the paranormal history and more.

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Not to mention, the building is haunted.

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Tell Bob and Elise that we sent you.

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We also want to thank Beard Engine Brewing Company in Alba, Missouri.

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Beard Engine Brewing is the only English-style brewery in Missouri and has been twice named

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Missouri's best brewery by the Missouri Brewers Association.

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Great beer and great food in a historical building with a noir past.

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And yes, their building is also haunted.

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Tell Nate and Tiff that we sent you.

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Lots of ghosts.

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Lots of ghosts.

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It is the Dark Ozark, so that comes with the territory.

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But it might come also as a surprise to some that for some reason, the Ozark mountain plateau

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does not stop at the Missouri and Arkansas state line.

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That's right.

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Yes, Virginia.

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The Ozarks are in Oklahoma, too.

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In a good chunk, we're talking about a very rugged continuation of the upland plateau

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of the Ozarks extending over into the Tahlequah area.

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And that ruggedness combined with some socio-historical features really combined to make the Oklahoma

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Ozarks a phenomenal place to hide out, in some cases, even longer than was the case

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with the Missouri and Arkansas Ozarks.

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True.

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And in a very real sense, a number ran that direction to get out of trouble they got into

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in those Ozarks here.

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They did.

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And there are, of course, stories of at least one Christian County bald knobber escaping

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from the Christian County Jail and disappearing into Indian territory, which later became

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Oklahoma.

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That happened quite a bit, actually.

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And people might be surprised that what is now Oklahoma, what was Indian territory, was

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in many ways was sort of, quote, a no man's land.

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Because really the only real law enforcement for a very long time was out of Fort Smith

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and Arkansas.

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And all of the US Marshals would, the US Marshals were in charge of most law enforcement in

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the territory.

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And so they would have to go over there from Fort Smith.

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And actually quite a few really legends and compelling stories came out of that.

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One that a lot of people are familiar with, of course, is Judge Isaac Parker, who in about

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1879 was assigned to the Western District of Arkansas and charged with basically cleaning

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up the territory.

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That he was and that he did.

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It's interesting for me, of course, to look at many of these characters and personalities

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that certainly at the time were larger than life personalities that then became mythic

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folk heroes in the 20th century due to their essentially reincarnation as almost fictional

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characters on typically on the big screen.

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That's true.

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Very, very, very much so.

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And Westerns in particular visited all of these characters and Judge Parker was no exception,

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probably most prominently in Hang'em High with Clint Eastwood.

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Very, very true.

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And we're going to talk about John Wayne a couple of times on this particular episode,

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but I can't help but pull this book off from my coffee table.

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True Grit by Charles Portis.

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Exactly.

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Exactly.

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It's one of my favorite novels and of course, it really deals with those essentially social,

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historical and political factors that you cross at the time before the creation of Oklahoma's

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state, you crossed the Arkansas state line in the Indian Territory, the Missouri state

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line in the Indian Territory, things changed dramatically from a legal standpoint.

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What was that dynamic that they were basically looking at at that time?

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Well, for one thing, it was not a state, it was a territory.

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So basically, it was governed much more loosely by the federal government, not as hands on.

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And basically, for all intents and purposes, the only people with authority to do anything

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were the US Marshals, the federal judge and the military.

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That's a pretty thin scattering of officials considering the scope of the land involved.

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Right.

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And then you had tribal lands that began in the 1830s.

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So some of those areas, it was a little even more murky because you had tribal oversight,

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but for certain things, they sometimes cooperated, sometimes didn't with the military, etc.

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So often outlaws would try to, if depending on who they got along with, they would try

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to lose themselves on tribal land because then it was even harder for them to be found.

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But we think of, we know names from this time period of outlaws, but we don't know as many

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of the law men in the Indian territory.

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We do other, you know, Kansas and Missouri and so forth, you know, like Bat Masterson

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and wider people like that.

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But probably the most interesting US Marshal was Bass Reeves.

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Yeah, that's a very fair assessment.

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And very, very compelling story.

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I mean, he was born a slave.

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He was illiterate and ended up in Oklahoma and ended up becoming a US Marshal.

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And he would memorize the warrants.

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He would memorize what they looked like and everything, but he technically couldn't read.

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And he had the best track record of bringing in his men.

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Actually he brought in every man he was sent to get.

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Which is very impressive.

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Very, very impressive.

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And including his own son.

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Wow.

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He was very rigorous in his ideas of right and wrong.

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And his son, in a fit of anger, had ended up killing his wife when he found out she

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was having an affair with another man.

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And a warrant was issued.

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And so they let him know and they let Bass know that his son, that this warrant was there

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because they didn't want him to be shot.

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And he said, well, if anyone's going to bring him in, it's going to be me.

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And he brought him in and he stood trial and he ended up being convicted and I think served

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life in prison.

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That's impressive.

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Overall, everything is.

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And was Reeves essentially operating out of Fort Smith?

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Yes.

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Yes.

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Later, after he retired as a US Marshal, he worked as a lawman.

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I want to say he was in Clearmore for a while.

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But he was pretty elderly at that point.

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And if I remember right, losing his eyesight before he retired.

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But what people may not know is you know his story, as you said, from the bit screen, because

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he is the inspiration.

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I hate it when I just go blank for the Lone Ranger.

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I'll think of it a minute.

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Is it the Lone Ranger?

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Yes, the Lone Ranger.

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That's what I was thinking.

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But I think it is fascinating and incredibly powerful and an unfortunate commentary that

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most people wouldn't be able to draw that through line from a historical perspective.

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That's true.

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And particularly, you know, being African American.

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But yeah, Bastard's is quite the inspiration.

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And so it's interesting as we talk through some of this history tonight, we're going

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to talk about a lot of outlaws.

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So you have to kind of balance that.

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You have, you know, Ivy Parker, the hanging judge, and Bass Reeves, as opposed to some

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of these other things.

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So you had huge personalities on both sides.

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You really did.

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And essentially mythic heroes and folk heroes and individuals who probably without their

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even their imagining impacted American culture several generations later.

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They couldn't have conceived of as a as that level.

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And some of them probably would probably be pretty ticked off that they didn't get any

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merchandising rights.

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Yes, that certainly way before George Lucas came up with that brilliant move for Star

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Wars.

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Oh, it's just actually just watching ET over the weekend.

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Speaking of merchandising, some of the extended DVD information had a series of slides showing

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toys inspired by the movie.

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And I was a little embarrassed on how many of them I recognized from my childhood.

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It is what it is.

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I know.

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And the aspects is a little bit of you've already hinted at, but an enormous number

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of African Americans may found a home at various times in the in the Oklahoma Ozarks and in

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Oklahoma and in African American culture and and folk culture as well had really, really

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important influences on the development of the state and on the Eastern region, as well

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as the fact that mentioned several times prior to Oklahoma statehood, which I believe was

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1907, it was Indian territory and specifically named as the because with the removal, the

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federal removal of of tribes from ancestral lands in the east, Oklahoma became the place

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that they were sent.

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Yes.

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And in part because that was just past the edge of quote civilized.

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You know, civilization as things started to go further west.

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So very, very much so.

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And the consistent the inconsistent federal negotiation of moving Native Americans to

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locations that were, quote unquote, uncivilized because those areas were not going to be exploited

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yet in terms of white settlement.

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And then as soon as white settlement began to encroach on those areas, then we find a

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new area to remove.

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And we thought that particularly dance over and over here in our or in my region of the

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Missouri Ozarks with particularly the relocation of the Delaware and the Kickapoo tribes, among

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others, but those being the dominant ones.

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But of course, the the removal of the Osage first so that the Delaware could be moved

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in and then the removal of the Delaware.

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So to the white settlers could be moved in and the then of course, the the most notable

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the 1830s forced march of the of the Cherokee on multiple trails of the Trail of Spheres,

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which had again those those multiple pathways or routes led through Arkansas, through Missouri

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and and and terminated in modern day Oklahoma.

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Yes.

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And and and also during that same period, a lot of people might not realize that during

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as that was happening, that march was happening in the mid 1830s, it also coincided with several

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years of drought and bad game years for the Osage, who had already been relocated to Oklahoma

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in Kansas, what became Kansas.

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And so literally as that relocation of the civilized tribes is going to Indian territory,

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the Osage actually pushed back into southwest Missouri and there was a war in southwest

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Missouri fought with the military, including on the square in Carthage, Missouri.

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That is all but forgotten, that conflict is all that forgotten and very, very fascinating

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in in tragic, really.

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I mean, when you look at the the movements of people and then fast forward actually to

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Oklahoma becoming a state all the way into comparatively say comparatively recent times

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100 years ago in the 1920s, I'm still wrapping my head around the fact that it is the point

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20s.

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I personally think that it's almost 1999.

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But and I'm 17, but I'm not an is not in in the 1920s.

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A very interesting dynamic, which I think we'll we'll dig into a little bit later, but just

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as a note early on in the episode is that that similar theme of moving various tribes,

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various Native American tribal groups into certain areas that were unwanted until that

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land became wanted.

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And then finding new and unnervingly intricate ways to separate the the people from the land

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yet again.

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And in the 1920s, we saw a renewed attempt after the discovery of oil in on Osage tribal

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lands that had been established previously after the Osage had been removed from their

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ancestral lands several times already.

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Yes.

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Basically they had finally been relocated to a part of Oklahoma that ironically had

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one of the richest oil deposits in the world under it.

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And when oil was discovered, in fact, Chief Lookout worried that that it would actually

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put his people more in danger, made their future more insecure than secure.

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And ironically, in some ways, he was right.

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And a couple of things.

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One was pure greed and another was that suddenly you had the Osage, many of the tribal members

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become extremely wealthy.

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And of course, as happens, generally when it happens, some really flaunted their wealth

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and that caused a lot of jealousy.

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And so the way that the allotments and the rights were written, it was actually the most

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00:22:35,920 --> 00:22:46,400
intricate arrangement of any tribe and in some ways was designed to try to protect their

241
00:22:46,400 --> 00:22:47,400
interests.

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00:22:47,400 --> 00:23:01,440
But basically, if a tribal member intermarried with a non-tribal member and they died, their

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00:23:01,440 --> 00:23:06,800
interest went to the spouse.

244
00:23:06,800 --> 00:23:13,680
And so ultimately what happened is you had a number of tribal members who had intermarried

245
00:23:13,680 --> 00:23:28,560
with white settlers and then a series of murders occurred in the 1920s of over 200 tribal members

246
00:23:28,560 --> 00:23:37,680
in basically efforts to obtain those rights.

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00:23:37,680 --> 00:23:47,640
The FBI got involved and it was actually one of the seminal cases that J. Edgar Hoover

248
00:23:47,640 --> 00:23:54,240
used to justify the expansion of the FBI.

249
00:23:54,240 --> 00:24:03,600
Well, when you combine the high number of murders, first of all, in a comparatively

250
00:24:03,600 --> 00:24:13,200
small region with a comparatively sparse population, we're dealing with a statistically significant

251
00:24:13,200 --> 00:24:16,480
percentage of the population that was getting killed.

252
00:24:16,480 --> 00:24:18,080
Well, yeah.

253
00:24:18,080 --> 00:24:26,400
I mean, even today in a much more populated area, today if that many people died by murder

254
00:24:26,400 --> 00:24:34,360
in that period of time, I think it was about a year in say Tulsa, which is close to half

255
00:24:34,360 --> 00:24:39,200
a million people, that statistically would be a significant spike even today.

256
00:24:39,200 --> 00:24:40,200
Yeah.

257
00:24:40,200 --> 00:24:48,800
You think about just how devastating this was to the people of that region and the manner

258
00:24:48,800 --> 00:24:55,600
in which the murders took place were awful.

259
00:24:55,600 --> 00:25:06,000
I mean, it was extremely varied as well in the sense that it was just find unique ways

260
00:25:06,000 --> 00:25:09,360
to kill these people.

261
00:25:09,360 --> 00:25:12,760
Yeah.

262
00:25:12,760 --> 00:25:21,320
It seemed to be done in a way to maximize terrorizing people.

263
00:25:21,320 --> 00:25:25,880
It really does appear that psychological warfare is part of it.

264
00:25:25,880 --> 00:25:32,920
And of course, this is incredibly significant moment historically for the Osage people.

265
00:25:32,920 --> 00:25:43,240
Of course, as you mentioned, this was a situation in the history of the nation that J. Edgar

266
00:25:43,240 --> 00:25:47,080
Hoover utilized to expand the FBI.

267
00:25:47,080 --> 00:25:52,280
Ultimately, what was the overall outcome?

268
00:25:52,280 --> 00:25:58,800
Well, I mean, there were trials.

269
00:25:58,800 --> 00:26:01,800
Some were found guilty.

270
00:26:01,800 --> 00:26:08,420
There were a lot of efforts to try to cover it up by certain people.

271
00:26:08,420 --> 00:26:19,040
People were appalled, but it was a huge story, but I don't think it was as huge of a story

272
00:26:19,040 --> 00:26:25,880
as it probably would have been now.

273
00:26:25,880 --> 00:26:41,160
But ultimately, the intervention did in the murders and the oil rights stayed in place.

274
00:26:41,160 --> 00:26:53,600
But it's something that still lingers to this day as a shared trauma for Osage people.

275
00:26:53,600 --> 00:27:02,240
One of the references for tonight is a summer 1995 article by Renard Strickland, Osage Oil,

276
00:27:02,240 --> 00:27:06,080
Mineral Law, Murder, Mayhem, and Manipulation.

277
00:27:06,080 --> 00:27:10,920
And in that, there was a really interesting quote.

278
00:27:10,920 --> 00:27:15,520
The Osage continue to struggle with a system originally designed to strip them of their

279
00:27:15,520 --> 00:27:17,120
resources.

280
00:27:17,120 --> 00:27:21,640
And that was pinned in 1995.

281
00:27:21,640 --> 00:27:24,920
I found that really, really fascinating.

282
00:27:24,920 --> 00:27:26,280
Yeah.

283
00:27:26,280 --> 00:27:35,680
And then there's a more recent book about the murders of the Moonflower people, which

284
00:27:35,680 --> 00:27:38,080
is another name for the Osage.

285
00:27:38,080 --> 00:27:44,280
The book is about four or five years old, I'd say now, written by a New York Times reporter.

286
00:27:44,280 --> 00:27:52,400
It was very good, and actually, it was the basis of the movie that was just filmed there

287
00:27:52,400 --> 00:27:53,400
last year.

288
00:27:53,400 --> 00:27:57,400
I don't think it's been released yet.

289
00:27:57,400 --> 00:28:03,040
But I know Brendan Fraser's in it, and I can't remember who all's in it.

290
00:28:03,040 --> 00:28:08,680
But actually, several A-list stars are in it.

291
00:28:08,680 --> 00:28:13,040
So hopefully, it is a good telling of the story.

292
00:28:13,040 --> 00:28:14,800
I would hope so.

293
00:28:14,800 --> 00:28:18,640
And generally speaking, I would assume that it is.

294
00:28:18,640 --> 00:28:20,640
I would say so.

295
00:28:20,640 --> 00:28:23,720
I don't know any particulars.

296
00:28:23,720 --> 00:28:32,480
But if it's faithful to the book, then it should be.

297
00:28:32,480 --> 00:28:41,240
One of tonight's topics in regards to Oklahoma that I found really, really fascinating is

298
00:28:41,240 --> 00:28:43,320
the term social bandit.

299
00:28:43,320 --> 00:28:48,200
Yes, yes, I did too.

300
00:28:48,200 --> 00:28:52,560
But when you think about it, it's pretty apropos.

301
00:28:52,560 --> 00:29:05,480
And it fits a lot of outlaws and bandits in the North and to be honest, pretty, there

302
00:29:05,480 --> 00:29:17,800
are a handful out West, but I would say that category pretty much was kind of in this region

303
00:29:17,800 --> 00:29:20,520
more than anywhere else.

304
00:29:20,520 --> 00:29:21,520
Very much so.

305
00:29:21,520 --> 00:29:32,640
I mean, we see essentially in terms of mythic folklore of Western civilization, we have

306
00:29:32,640 --> 00:29:37,760
Robin Hood, and then we go straight to Jesse James.

307
00:29:37,760 --> 00:29:42,360
Jesse James and then the Dalton gang and so on and so forth.

308
00:29:42,360 --> 00:29:46,680
And people may be going, what's a social bandit?

309
00:29:46,680 --> 00:29:48,520
No, it's not that they're friendly.

310
00:29:48,520 --> 00:29:55,040
Although certainly, certainly a lot of people talked about how charismatic the James brothers

311
00:29:55,040 --> 00:29:56,040
could be.

312
00:29:56,040 --> 00:30:10,120
Definitely in terms of it's difficult for me to make any contemporary comparisons with

313
00:30:10,120 --> 00:30:21,920
certainly in the United States with our admittedly not exhaustive list, but still our list of

314
00:30:21,920 --> 00:30:34,760
notable outlaws that not only achieved some level of mythic status, even during their

315
00:30:34,760 --> 00:30:50,760
lives, but were lightning rod figures, largely based on their regional popularity.

316
00:30:50,760 --> 00:30:58,600
I mean, even when you get to the Depression era, you get that a little bit, but not really

317
00:30:58,600 --> 00:31:02,840
during the time period so much.

318
00:31:02,840 --> 00:31:06,880
The closest would be Bonnie and Clyde, and that is a lightning rod because some people

319
00:31:06,880 --> 00:31:13,840
just view them as hardened criminals and they shouldn't be quote glorified.

320
00:31:13,840 --> 00:31:21,800
But they did have that social bandit aspect and part of that is that of their popularity,

321
00:31:21,800 --> 00:31:26,640
of the population, the area and being protected and so forth.

322
00:31:26,640 --> 00:31:33,560
And they did have that in areas, particularly in Northeast Oklahoma.

323
00:31:33,560 --> 00:31:35,360
They did.

324
00:31:35,360 --> 00:31:41,640
And the other person that really comes to mind is pretty boy Floyd.

325
00:31:41,640 --> 00:31:43,180
Yes.

326
00:31:43,180 --> 00:31:44,180
That is true.

327
00:31:44,180 --> 00:31:55,240
And pretty boy Floyd was everywhere all over the Ozarks in Missouri and Oklahoma.

328
00:31:55,240 --> 00:32:07,200
And he gets a bit of that mystique, not only from sort of being a homegrown boy and being

329
00:32:07,200 --> 00:32:15,360
protected by people, but also in large part for the question marks of was he involved

330
00:32:15,360 --> 00:32:16,480
in this crime?

331
00:32:16,480 --> 00:32:18,280
Was he involved in that crime?

332
00:32:18,280 --> 00:32:19,280
Yes.

333
00:32:19,280 --> 00:32:20,880
Maybe yes, maybe no.

334
00:32:20,880 --> 00:32:26,000
Everything from the Kansas City Massacre to the Young Brothers Massacre.

335
00:32:26,000 --> 00:32:27,000
Was he there or not?

336
00:32:27,000 --> 00:32:30,120
We don't really know.

337
00:32:30,120 --> 00:32:38,960
And again, speaking to the just the far reaching aspects and we see this with Jesse James,

338
00:32:38,960 --> 00:32:45,800
we see this with pretty boy Floyd in particular and also, of course, with Bonnie and Clyde.

339
00:32:45,800 --> 00:33:01,600
But the incredible power of a fast horse and several decades later, a fast car were I think

340
00:33:01,600 --> 00:33:04,240
an informing part of the meat toast.

341
00:33:04,240 --> 00:33:08,200
But it reminds me, of course, a lot of my family is from southern Iowa, which is vastly

342
00:33:08,200 --> 00:33:14,480
removed from the Ozarks in terms of just distance.

343
00:33:14,480 --> 00:33:21,320
And to this day, I believe to this day, certainly during my growing up years, the county seat

344
00:33:21,320 --> 00:33:32,320
of Wayne County, Iowa, Gordon, would celebrate Jesse James days every summer because Jesse

345
00:33:32,320 --> 00:33:40,760
James had robbed a bank there during his during those days and actually reading a book a couple

346
00:33:40,760 --> 00:33:47,840
of years ago, two years ago now, reading a great, incredibly well researched book on

347
00:33:47,840 --> 00:33:55,440
Centerville, Iowa, over the entire history of the county, really of Appanoos County and

348
00:33:55,440 --> 00:34:05,880
surrounding environments mentioned the reasonably well documented reality that pretty boy Floyd

349
00:34:05,880 --> 00:34:17,720
and one of his friends had stolen a car and then abandoned it because it caught fire,

350
00:34:17,720 --> 00:34:28,060
I think, on a on a particular road not far from Numa and Jerome, Iowa, the particular

351
00:34:28,060 --> 00:34:35,880
corner next to a cemetery and had left the car on top of the hill that specific location

352
00:34:35,880 --> 00:34:41,600
described is in front of my sister's farm.

353
00:34:41,600 --> 00:34:48,000
See, that's, you know, you know, those are those are such interesting, you know, stories

354
00:34:48,000 --> 00:34:54,160
of the fact that, you know, you have a direct connection, you know, and there and that happens

355
00:34:54,160 --> 00:34:58,760
in those arts everywhere with people who that there were connections with Bonnie and Clyde

356
00:34:58,760 --> 00:35:01,480
or Jesse James.

357
00:35:01,480 --> 00:35:08,040
We've been told stories at events by people, you know, family members, you know, handed

358
00:35:08,040 --> 00:35:13,960
down the stories of the, you know, one of them coming to the house or Bonnie and Clyde,

359
00:35:13,960 --> 00:35:20,160
you know, partying at a joint on the river in Oklahoma, you know.

360
00:35:20,160 --> 00:35:32,520
And I think it is a point that was made in the research material, which is very interesting

361
00:35:32,520 --> 00:35:41,160
is that this sort of milieu of the social bandit really only exists in America, aside

362
00:35:41,160 --> 00:35:47,400
from the Robin Hood myth, which, of course, the Robin Hood myth took close to a thousand

363
00:35:47,400 --> 00:35:49,360
years to be fleshed out.

364
00:35:49,360 --> 00:35:58,840
It did and had a number of editors along the way and lots of twists and turns to it.

365
00:35:58,840 --> 00:36:10,000
And with our with our American outlaws, we're we're not dealing with with centuries of fabricated

366
00:36:10,000 --> 00:36:11,000
story.

367
00:36:11,000 --> 00:36:18,240
We're dealing with individuals that much of their lives have been clearly documented.

368
00:36:18,240 --> 00:36:23,200
Many aspects of their lives were were associated with first person accounts, not only in front

369
00:36:23,200 --> 00:36:29,560
of themselves, but also lots of individuals in the Ozarks elsewhere also.

370
00:36:29,560 --> 00:36:36,840
But Arkansas, not Oklahoma Ozarks, Missouri Ozarks in particular, some in Arkansas.

371
00:36:36,840 --> 00:36:48,880
And it really follows through there is a through line of the the hallmarks of what I think

372
00:36:48,880 --> 00:36:52,160
too many of us simply make sense.

373
00:36:52,160 --> 00:36:56,000
You look at the lives that they led, their reasons for doing things.

374
00:36:56,000 --> 00:36:58,280
There's a vicariousness that is involved.

375
00:36:58,280 --> 00:37:01,440
There's a common sense element that is involved.

376
00:37:01,440 --> 00:37:08,740
There's a an element that many everyday Americans, law abiding Americans would.

377
00:37:08,740 --> 00:37:13,320
Look at the actions of some of these gangs and go, you know.

378
00:37:13,320 --> 00:37:17,800
In my situation, either I do that or, you know, if I was in their situation, I would

379
00:37:17,800 --> 00:37:18,800
do that.

380
00:37:18,800 --> 00:37:23,320
Or if I was in their situation, I hope.

381
00:37:23,320 --> 00:37:25,320
I would do that.

382
00:37:25,320 --> 00:37:26,320
Yeah.

383
00:37:26,320 --> 00:37:33,080
And, you know, that's that's one of those things that to the time period that these

384
00:37:33,080 --> 00:37:47,120
things happen, you had relatively little law enforcement, relatively less social more a

385
00:37:47,120 --> 00:37:55,080
enforcement, you know, peer pressure and in part because of rugged territory and sparse

386
00:37:55,080 --> 00:37:58,040
populations, et cetera.

387
00:37:58,040 --> 00:38:01,440
And so the.

388
00:38:01,440 --> 00:38:06,760
Even though America has always and even during that time period pride itself on being law

389
00:38:06,760 --> 00:38:14,640
and order and, you know, stable, et cetera.

390
00:38:14,640 --> 00:38:22,080
That time period and this part of the country, because of those factors, what was just an

391
00:38:22,080 --> 00:38:30,520
upright and moral not only was fuzzy, but it was very situational.

392
00:38:30,520 --> 00:38:32,260
It was.

393
00:38:32,260 --> 00:38:41,240
There was a lot of distrust of law enforcement when there was law enforcement.

394
00:38:41,240 --> 00:38:44,200
And there was it was an interesting note.

395
00:38:44,200 --> 00:38:49,880
Of course, we're referencing many cases in this situation, not all for tonight, but outlaw

396
00:38:49,880 --> 00:38:57,800
gangs of the middle border published in Western Historical Quarterly in 1981 and a lot of

397
00:38:57,800 --> 00:39:08,200
distrust of of local law and a lot of blurring the lines in particular.

398
00:39:08,200 --> 00:39:17,080
We're talking about Oklahoma in particular, a lot of blurring the lines between.

399
00:39:17,080 --> 00:39:24,120
Survival and essentially banditry.

400
00:39:24,120 --> 00:39:27,160
Rustlers et cetera.

401
00:39:27,160 --> 00:39:33,720
And in ways that would probably be shocking to some people now, but it came down, I think,

402
00:39:33,720 --> 00:39:43,440
to the fact that in some cases, if you were going to choose between rustling cattle that

403
00:39:43,440 --> 00:39:50,960
presumably based on the size of some of the herds that the herd owners would likely not

404
00:39:50,960 --> 00:39:54,560
miss or be able to trace as opposed to being able to feed your family.

405
00:39:54,560 --> 00:39:56,960
Those types of very basic elements.

406
00:39:56,960 --> 00:39:57,960
Exactly.

407
00:39:57,960 --> 00:40:07,100
And here a good example that kind of illustrates all of this and actually very much ties those

408
00:40:07,100 --> 00:40:14,720
arts together with all this is Wyatt Earp in his early days, Wyatt Earp started out

409
00:40:14,720 --> 00:40:21,720
as his first law enforcement job was in Lamar, Missouri.

410
00:40:21,720 --> 00:40:31,000
And in 1869, he was 21 years old and his father had been a marshal.

411
00:40:31,000 --> 00:40:33,440
They were at this point very stable.

412
00:40:33,440 --> 00:40:36,840
His brother owned a grocery store in town, et cetera.

413
00:40:36,840 --> 00:40:48,320
And then basically circumstances intervened and his bride of only a few months dies.

414
00:40:48,320 --> 00:41:01,320
He ends up leaving town under a cloud of suspicion of embezzlement and promptly goes to Indian

415
00:41:01,320 --> 00:41:12,000
territory where he and a couple of other fellows basically steal horses and get arrested, taken

416
00:41:12,000 --> 00:41:15,880
to Fort Smith.

417
00:41:15,880 --> 00:41:19,960
And well, actually not Fort Smith.

418
00:41:19,960 --> 00:41:21,620
Where was the court before?

419
00:41:21,620 --> 00:41:26,520
Because literally they're arrested a few months as they're getting ready to move the court

420
00:41:26,520 --> 00:41:27,520
to Fort Smith.

421
00:41:27,520 --> 00:41:33,920
And I'm trying to think, Mountain Home maybe?

422
00:41:33,920 --> 00:41:46,760
And he escapes and then goes to Kansas and then back to Illinois and gets arrested gambling

423
00:41:46,760 --> 00:41:53,120
and with prostitution and so forth for a few times before then becoming a lawman again.

424
00:41:53,120 --> 00:42:07,680
So it's a good illustration of your heroes aren't always just white hats, et cetera.

425
00:42:07,680 --> 00:42:16,360
And also on the social bandit aspect of it, Lamar has officially forgiven Wyatt Earp for

426
00:42:16,360 --> 00:42:25,600
any transgressions of stealing because they celebrate Wyatt Earp days every September.

427
00:42:25,600 --> 00:42:37,840
Which I'm just wrapping my head around on the eve of Earp leaving Lamar for the first

428
00:42:37,840 --> 00:42:43,720
time if someone had beamed into that moment from the future and said, by the way, you're

429
00:42:43,720 --> 00:42:51,840
going to be not only a cultural hero, but they're going to celebrate you with a festival

430
00:42:51,840 --> 00:42:52,840
every year.

431
00:42:52,840 --> 00:42:56,600
I wonder what the response would have been.

432
00:42:56,600 --> 00:42:57,600
Exactly.

433
00:42:57,600 --> 00:43:04,280
It's a good illustration of this idea.

434
00:43:04,280 --> 00:43:13,320
And you know, maybe and I have to wonder if part of it is part of being such a young country.

435
00:43:13,320 --> 00:43:22,840
And not being able to rely on eons of mythology.

436
00:43:22,840 --> 00:43:32,280
That's a good point because while certain aspects of folklore were being built up around

437
00:43:32,280 --> 00:43:39,880
real and imagined people and certainly there was an aspect of mythologizing from the top

438
00:43:39,880 --> 00:43:52,200
down in terms of George Washington to obviously Abraham Lincoln, you know, individual Daniel

439
00:43:52,200 --> 00:44:05,320
Boone, Davy Crockett over into a more mythic aspects, Johnny Appleseed over into Paul Bunyan

440
00:44:05,320 --> 00:44:08,480
and Babe the Blue Ox, so on and so forth.

441
00:44:08,480 --> 00:44:17,160
I think there was something deeply resonant about the Dalton gang, about the James gang

442
00:44:17,160 --> 00:44:25,200
that would really speak to a different, speak in a different way to the American story and

443
00:44:25,200 --> 00:44:33,840
to the American, the soul of the American people that, you know, you look at some of

444
00:44:33,840 --> 00:44:40,400
the, for example, the far Northwoods mythos and lore.

445
00:44:40,400 --> 00:44:41,800
Yes, it's fun.

446
00:44:41,800 --> 00:44:47,240
You look at what Washington Irving wrote in terms of various tales.

447
00:44:47,240 --> 00:44:48,240
It's fun.

448
00:44:48,240 --> 00:44:49,240
It's spooky.

449
00:44:49,240 --> 00:44:51,720
It creates a sense of place.

450
00:44:51,720 --> 00:45:00,960
You look at some of the varying generations of top down American mythos with Washington

451
00:45:00,960 --> 00:45:06,600
and Lincoln and with those, you know, and ultimately the establishment of Presidents

452
00:45:06,600 --> 00:45:14,800
Day and generation after generation of school children being forced to cut things out of

453
00:45:14,800 --> 00:45:22,520
paper in terms of silhouettes and hanging them and not saying I was scarred by that,

454
00:45:22,520 --> 00:45:25,880
but maybe I was.

455
00:45:25,880 --> 00:45:26,880
Anyway.

456
00:45:26,880 --> 00:45:41,160
My top hat, my construction paper top hats never came out right, but it came to the land

457
00:45:41,160 --> 00:45:42,160
of Lincoln.

458
00:45:42,160 --> 00:45:46,000
There was a lot of demand in terms of continuation.

459
00:45:46,000 --> 00:45:47,640
Lots of pressure.

460
00:45:47,640 --> 00:45:51,760
Lots of pressure in first grade in February.

461
00:45:51,760 --> 00:45:57,360
Terrible weather, February in Illinois is not a fun time.

462
00:45:57,360 --> 00:45:59,760
That's the reason I moved to the Ozark.

463
00:45:59,760 --> 00:46:03,200
But I'm not remotely bitter.

464
00:46:03,200 --> 00:46:08,000
I'm just saying that I'm not scarred by the experience.

465
00:46:08,000 --> 00:46:20,880
But I think that there is something very akin to more in the realm of, I would say, fair

466
00:46:20,880 --> 00:46:29,720
on the spectrum with Babe the Blue Ox being at the extreme and George Washington being

467
00:46:29,720 --> 00:46:31,320
at the center.

468
00:46:31,320 --> 00:46:42,480
I think as we're moving westward, we start to see folk heroes in the terms of Davy Crockett,

469
00:46:42,480 --> 00:46:48,840
folk heroes in the terms of, honestly, old hickory, Andrew Jackson.

470
00:46:48,840 --> 00:46:53,840
Very much so that there is a grounding.

471
00:46:53,840 --> 00:47:04,040
And of course, there's this cultural roller coaster between how individuals saw them at

472
00:47:04,040 --> 00:47:14,480
the time into seeing them created into these heroic figures, particularly through comparatively

473
00:47:14,480 --> 00:47:27,000
the modern media and the pop culture in the 20th century, and then their deconstruction

474
00:47:27,000 --> 00:47:32,160
in the latter part of the 20th century into the early 21st century to say, oh, those people

475
00:47:32,160 --> 00:47:39,360
that you thought were so heroic, here's 16 reasons why they weren't, please insert clickbait

476
00:47:39,360 --> 00:47:42,360
page here.

477
00:47:42,360 --> 00:47:48,000
Those types of things and long dissertations on why all of the American heroes that we

478
00:47:48,000 --> 00:47:51,720
can't believe are heroes are not heroes, et cetera.

479
00:47:51,720 --> 00:48:01,760
And I think that there's an injection of reality with the James Gang, with the Dalton Brothers,

480
00:48:01,760 --> 00:48:05,840
and the Dalton Doolin Gang.

481
00:48:05,840 --> 00:48:16,240
I would say also with Pretty Boy Floyd, just in terms of they didn't need, although they

482
00:48:16,240 --> 00:48:20,840
certainly in the course of Jesse James, they have the movies, but they didn't need the

483
00:48:20,840 --> 00:48:23,760
movies at the time.

484
00:48:23,760 --> 00:48:30,040
They were heroes, they were folk heroes at the time.

485
00:48:30,040 --> 00:48:37,400
And in large part, based on the actions and the decisions that they were making while

486
00:48:37,400 --> 00:48:38,400
being outlaws.

487
00:48:38,400 --> 00:48:47,240
Well, and a good example of that would be specifically the James Brothers.

488
00:48:47,240 --> 00:49:00,360
Frank, after Jesse was killed, about a year later, he turned himself in, and he literally

489
00:49:00,360 --> 00:49:10,880
walked into the governor's office without anyone recognizing him, et cetera, walks into

490
00:49:10,880 --> 00:49:17,840
the governor's outer office and there's 15 clerks working, and finally a young lady asked,

491
00:49:17,840 --> 00:49:19,520
you know, say, can I help you?

492
00:49:19,520 --> 00:49:24,400
And he says, I would like to speak with the governor.

493
00:49:24,400 --> 00:49:28,480
And she says, can I have your name to tell him who's here?

494
00:49:28,480 --> 00:49:35,480
And he just said, Frank James, and then everyone went, ah!

495
00:49:35,480 --> 00:49:38,560
And ran out of the room.

496
00:49:38,560 --> 00:49:46,720
And of course he goes in and he surrenders, surrenders his gun, first time in over 20

497
00:49:46,720 --> 00:49:52,680
years, and tells him, tells the governor that it was the first time he had allowed another

498
00:49:52,680 --> 00:49:58,240
man to touch his gun since 1861.

499
00:49:58,240 --> 00:50:07,160
And then later after the show trial, et cetera, which we've covered in other episodes, he

500
00:50:07,160 --> 00:50:12,280
tried to settle down to a quiet life.

501
00:50:12,280 --> 00:50:19,520
And remarkably, there were only two known examples where he kind of used his name in

502
00:50:19,520 --> 00:50:22,120
any way.

503
00:50:22,120 --> 00:50:26,080
He tried to avoid that, but people didn't allow him really.

504
00:50:26,080 --> 00:50:32,800
At one point, you know, to make money, a department store in Dallas, Texas, hired him to be a

505
00:50:32,800 --> 00:50:34,360
shoe salesman.

506
00:50:34,360 --> 00:50:40,440
And they did it, they thought, well, people will come in because they want to see what

507
00:50:40,440 --> 00:50:43,360
Frank James really looks like and everything.

508
00:50:43,360 --> 00:50:52,720
And he was more mild-mannered, very articulate, you know, his personality was a bit different

509
00:50:52,720 --> 00:50:53,720
than Jesse's.

510
00:50:53,720 --> 00:51:04,040
And the story goes that actually they had so many people try to come in and they ended

511
00:51:04,040 --> 00:51:08,720
up tearing up the store over time that they let Frank go because it was costing them more

512
00:51:08,720 --> 00:51:12,840
money and damages than sales.

513
00:51:12,840 --> 00:51:21,720
But while he worked there, there was apparently this town bully there in Dallas that had quite

514
00:51:21,720 --> 00:51:24,480
a name for himself and came in and he wanted boots.

515
00:51:24,480 --> 00:51:33,360
And so he was being helped by this, you know, this mild-mannered salesman and tried on a

516
00:51:33,360 --> 00:51:37,080
pair, told him what he wanted, he brings them and doesn't like that.

517
00:51:37,080 --> 00:51:44,360
And they go through about 12 pairs and the guy starts getting irate and said, you know,

518
00:51:44,360 --> 00:51:46,280
can't you bring me a good pair of boots?

519
00:51:46,280 --> 00:51:50,880
And he says, well, sir, I think that's a good pair of boots you have on there.

520
00:51:50,880 --> 00:51:52,040
And he said, really?

521
00:51:52,040 --> 00:51:54,760
Do you know who you're talking to?

522
00:51:54,760 --> 00:51:55,760
And he said, no.

523
00:51:55,760 --> 00:52:00,280
And he tells him his name and he goes, well, I'm sorry, I don't know you, sir, but I still

524
00:52:00,280 --> 00:52:02,520
think that's a good pair of boots.

525
00:52:02,520 --> 00:52:05,280
And do you know who you're talking to?

526
00:52:05,280 --> 00:52:06,280
And he said, no.

527
00:52:06,280 --> 00:52:08,280
And he said, Frank James.

528
00:52:08,280 --> 00:52:15,720
The fellow replied with, I do think those are a good pair of boots and bought them.

529
00:52:15,720 --> 00:52:24,440
And the only other time that's recorded that I've found that he kind of used his name was

530
00:52:24,440 --> 00:52:29,560
at one point he and his wife, I forget where they were living and people had figured out

531
00:52:29,560 --> 00:52:31,760
that it was him.

532
00:52:31,760 --> 00:52:37,200
And so neighborhood children would come and knock on the door and ring the bell constantly

533
00:52:37,200 --> 00:52:39,020
trying to get him to answer the door.

534
00:52:39,020 --> 00:52:45,360
So he put a piece of paper above the doorbell that said, this is the house of Frank James.

535
00:52:45,360 --> 00:52:49,240
And no one rang the bell after that.

536
00:52:49,240 --> 00:52:58,300
But to me, it illustrates that that milieu of social bandit really did exist for those

537
00:52:58,300 --> 00:53:00,320
things to happen.

538
00:53:00,320 --> 00:53:07,000
It did and I'm going to come back to this Richard White article for just a moment.

539
00:53:07,000 --> 00:53:10,080
I love this paragraph.

540
00:53:10,080 --> 00:53:14,480
Given social conditions in Oklahoma and Missouri, there was a decisive allure in strong men

541
00:53:14,480 --> 00:53:18,640
who defended themselves, righted their own wrongs and took vengeance on their enemies

542
00:53:18,640 --> 00:53:21,520
despite the corruption of the existing order.

543
00:53:21,520 --> 00:53:27,680
Such virtues were of more than nostalgic interest in praising bandits.

544
00:53:27,680 --> 00:53:32,040
Bandits admired them more for their attributes and their acts.

545
00:53:32,040 --> 00:53:39,160
Bandits were brave, daring, free, shrewd and tough, yet also loyal, gentle, generous and

546
00:53:39,160 --> 00:53:40,200
polite.

547
00:53:40,200 --> 00:53:42,040
They were not common criminals.

548
00:53:42,040 --> 00:53:43,040
Yes.

549
00:53:43,040 --> 00:53:50,200
Well, and there was a lot of reality to that with a number of them, particularly the James

550
00:53:50,200 --> 00:54:01,240
brothers and the younger brothers, because they came from means and quote of the time,

551
00:54:01,240 --> 00:54:04,480
quote good families and were cousins, by the way.

552
00:54:04,480 --> 00:54:13,920
So, you know, so they were not seen even in their time, even in the early days as, you

553
00:54:13,920 --> 00:54:19,040
know, sort of petty thieves, common thieves.

554
00:54:19,040 --> 00:54:27,880
And I think that there's a, of course, the article makes mention and it's interesting

555
00:54:27,880 --> 00:54:36,920
because it makes mention of, first of all, were they some sort of, you know, socialist

556
00:54:36,920 --> 00:54:43,680
reform fighting for the new American peasantry that largely gets dismissed in the sense that

557
00:54:43,680 --> 00:54:48,640
that really was not the perspective of the times.

558
00:54:48,640 --> 00:54:54,200
It was not the perspective of the individuals who were being outlaws at the times.

559
00:54:54,200 --> 00:55:03,520
There was one one sort of academic accusation that the surrounding countryside pretended

560
00:55:03,520 --> 00:55:10,000
to be supportive of the gang because they were afraid of them.

561
00:55:10,000 --> 00:55:15,720
That really doesn't hold up in terms of contemporary literature.

562
00:55:15,720 --> 00:55:17,600
No.

563
00:55:17,600 --> 00:55:25,120
The isolated individuals might have been if they were at odds politically, but overall

564
00:55:25,120 --> 00:55:35,720
no, the areas that they had strongholds in shared worldviews.

565
00:55:35,720 --> 00:55:47,320
And there's the common theme that really appears to resonate is that their, for lack of a better

566
00:55:47,320 --> 00:56:02,840
term, their well-mannered and polite and gregarious banditry really reflected a rugged individualism

567
00:56:02,840 --> 00:56:14,440
that was popular and was an expression of what we would even today consider to be a

568
00:56:14,440 --> 00:56:17,880
perhaps mythic, but still American ideal.

569
00:56:17,880 --> 00:56:21,520
Oh, definitely.

570
00:56:21,520 --> 00:56:30,640
And you still see it in advertising and entertainment today.

571
00:56:30,640 --> 00:56:35,800
It's just you're not on a horse or robbing a train.

572
00:56:35,800 --> 00:56:47,880
I mean, it is sort of a characteristics that are viewed as admirable.

573
00:56:47,880 --> 00:56:56,680
I think the American psyche is, well, it's great if you have these characteristics and

574
00:56:56,680 --> 00:57:01,880
you aren't committing crimes, but if you are committing crimes for the right reasons, we

575
00:57:01,880 --> 00:57:04,440
still admire it.

576
00:57:04,440 --> 00:57:15,360
And in a seemingly contradictory way, it adds to the street cred.

577
00:57:15,360 --> 00:57:20,760
Literally, yes.

578
00:57:20,760 --> 00:57:27,840
The Ardmore, Oklahoma State Herald had this contemporary statement to make in regards

579
00:57:27,840 --> 00:57:30,080
to the Dooland Dalton gang.

580
00:57:30,080 --> 00:57:32,180
Their life is made up of daring.

581
00:57:32,180 --> 00:57:35,100
Their courage is always with them and their rifles as well.

582
00:57:35,100 --> 00:57:39,320
They are kind to the benighted traveler and it is not a fiction that when robbing a train,

583
00:57:39,320 --> 00:57:40,920
they refuse to take from a woman.

584
00:57:40,920 --> 00:57:46,040
It is said that Bill Dooland, at present the reigning highwayman, is friendly to the people

585
00:57:46,040 --> 00:57:50,480
in one neighborhood, best doing all sorts of presents upon the children.

586
00:57:50,480 --> 00:57:54,000
It is his boast that he never killed a man.

587
00:57:54,000 --> 00:58:01,420
This is as fully a romantic figure as Robin Hood ever cut."

588
00:58:01,420 --> 00:58:15,920
And ironically, Bill Dalton admired and envied Jesse James, which of course, who had much

589
00:58:15,920 --> 00:58:19,320
the similar reputation.

590
00:58:19,320 --> 00:58:27,600
And of course, the demise of the Dalton gang or most of the Dalton gang was because specifically

591
00:58:27,600 --> 00:58:34,840
they were determined to do what Jesse James did not accomplish in Northfield, Minnesota.

592
00:58:34,840 --> 00:58:36,760
Yes.

593
00:58:36,760 --> 00:58:49,320
And ended up with a similar result and actually worse numbers lost.

594
00:58:49,320 --> 00:58:56,560
So there was definitely some parallels there.

595
00:58:56,560 --> 00:59:02,040
I was going to say for anyone's wonder, because the Dalton gang did operate in Oklahoma a

596
00:59:02,040 --> 00:59:03,040
lot.

597
00:59:03,040 --> 00:59:10,320
The James gang did at times and they hid out at Robbers Cave in Oklahoma.

598
00:59:10,320 --> 00:59:22,680
And of course, there is a lot of legends that they buried quite a bit of treasure in Oklahoma.

599
00:59:22,680 --> 00:59:33,120
And some people say, oh, it's just legend, but in 1913 to 1915, Frank James moved to

600
00:59:33,120 --> 00:59:41,000
Oklahoma and then the same time period, Cole Younger got out of prison and he went down

601
00:59:41,000 --> 00:59:44,280
there the same place.

602
00:59:44,280 --> 00:59:50,960
And the story goes, they were trying to find the treasure that they had buried there 30

603
00:59:50,960 --> 00:59:51,960
years before.

604
00:59:51,960 --> 01:00:02,720
Just that, just the mystique of buried treasure is powerful in and of itself.

605
01:00:02,720 --> 01:00:05,160
And then you start adding in these layers.

606
01:00:05,160 --> 01:00:10,720
It gets enticing to say the least.

607
01:00:10,720 --> 01:00:15,160
From a mythological, legendary, historic perspective.

608
01:00:15,160 --> 01:00:25,760
There's one other quote I wanted to run past you because I just think that it was really

609
01:00:25,760 --> 01:00:32,280
interesting to me that the social bandits who metaphorically rode out of Missouri and

610
01:00:32,280 --> 01:00:37,880
Oklahoma into America at large quickly transcended the specific economic and political conditions

611
01:00:37,880 --> 01:00:41,960
of the areas that produced them and became national cultural heroes.

612
01:00:41,960 --> 01:00:44,720
The outlaws were ready-made cultural heroes.

613
01:00:44,720 --> 01:00:48,720
Their local supporters had already presented them in terms accessible to the nation as

614
01:00:48,720 --> 01:00:49,800
a whole.

615
01:00:49,800 --> 01:00:55,000
The portrait of the outlaw as a strong man, writing his own wrongs and taking his own

616
01:00:55,000 --> 01:01:01,240
revenge had a deep appeal to a society concerned with the place of masculinity and masculine

617
01:01:01,240 --> 01:01:06,040
virtues in a newly industrialized and seemingly afeet quarter.

618
01:01:06,040 --> 01:01:11,080
Oh, that is interesting.

619
01:01:11,080 --> 01:01:16,840
I would say that there's a lot of validity there.

620
01:01:16,840 --> 01:01:19,320
Particularly the quote the ready-made.

621
01:01:19,320 --> 01:01:31,980
And part of that was because the mythos of those bandits was ready-made and created specifically

622
01:01:31,980 --> 01:01:36,280
by newspaperman, particularly John Edwards.

623
01:01:36,280 --> 01:01:44,000
I mean, there is, you know, some people would argue that you wouldn't know who Jesse James

624
01:01:44,000 --> 01:01:49,040
was if it weren't for John Edwards, too.

625
01:01:49,040 --> 01:01:54,240
We ran across a number of times in the dark Ozards because again, in this time period,

626
01:01:54,240 --> 01:02:00,240
you know, it sits people in smoke and mirrors, it seems, but he was the adjutant to Joe Shelby

627
01:02:00,240 --> 01:02:10,440
during the war and of course, and had met and run into the James brothers during the

628
01:02:10,440 --> 01:02:15,440
war as they fought under Quantrell and Bloody Bill Anderson.

629
01:02:15,440 --> 01:02:23,800
And then when he returned to the newspaper business, he took up the mantle of basically

630
01:02:23,800 --> 01:02:30,800
creating the Robin Hood version of Jesse James.

631
01:02:30,800 --> 01:02:40,720
And I think I'm just contemplating on this in terms of the hero impact because there

632
01:02:40,720 --> 01:02:47,480
is something, I think, especially for little boys, there's something very enticing about

633
01:02:47,480 --> 01:02:51,280
an outlaw hero.

634
01:02:51,280 --> 01:02:58,280
The guy that, you know, your aunt or your grandmother might tell you not to be emulating

635
01:02:58,280 --> 01:03:03,080
is the very person that you want to play out.

636
01:03:03,080 --> 01:03:05,480
Oh, true.

637
01:03:05,480 --> 01:03:15,280
And I think also for at least some little girls that, you know, aren't too girly girly.

638
01:03:15,280 --> 01:03:19,960
Which is actually an excellent segue to Bell Star.

639
01:03:19,960 --> 01:03:21,800
Who was girly girly?

640
01:03:21,800 --> 01:03:30,960
Well, and just coming back to was it Frank who always carried a copy of Shakespeare with

641
01:03:30,960 --> 01:03:31,960
him?

642
01:03:31,960 --> 01:03:38,880
Yes, and could quote Shakespeare very, very well.

643
01:03:38,880 --> 01:03:45,920
And you think about that just for a moment and we do see this, this was one of the arguments

644
01:03:45,920 --> 01:03:57,240
that somehow the James or the Daltons were fighting against social classes, etc.

645
01:03:57,240 --> 01:04:04,080
And it was it referenced, of course, the James that referenced Joe Shelby to make note that

646
01:04:04,080 --> 01:04:06,240
these were individuals who came from memes.

647
01:04:06,240 --> 01:04:09,320
In many cases, they were extremely well educated.

648
01:04:09,320 --> 01:04:16,480
And you cannot distill this to the simplicity of class struggle.

649
01:04:16,480 --> 01:04:21,480
No, actually, a number of that, particularly in that time period, and once we're talking

650
01:04:21,480 --> 01:04:28,400
about most of them were very well educated and had means.

651
01:04:28,400 --> 01:04:34,640
And so it kind of turns that stereotype on its head, really, if you know that.

652
01:04:34,640 --> 01:04:49,880
And just a thought to add into that, I think it's a century and change being removed from

653
01:04:49,880 --> 01:04:50,880
this culture.

654
01:04:50,880 --> 01:04:56,000
But we were in the rare times that we have photographs, it's very easy for a contemporary

655
01:04:56,000 --> 01:05:04,920
analyst to look at these individuals and they're dressed ruggedly, they have, you know, they

656
01:05:04,920 --> 01:05:07,320
frontier garb, etc.

657
01:05:07,320 --> 01:05:15,440
And somehow erroneously assume that these were poor people or these were uneducated

658
01:05:15,440 --> 01:05:16,440
people.

659
01:05:16,440 --> 01:05:25,040
It's one of the I understand the dynamic that you have a cultural folk hero in a liminal

660
01:05:25,040 --> 01:05:31,520
space of banditry, etc. distilled over generation and generation.

661
01:05:31,520 --> 01:05:40,560
And naturally, an outcome of that is to think of them as, you know, poorly spoken or poorly

662
01:05:40,560 --> 01:05:44,320
educated or, you know, fill in the blank.

663
01:05:44,320 --> 01:05:45,320
Right.

664
01:05:45,320 --> 01:05:53,600
But it really speaks to sort of your armchair analyst, I say, as I relax in my armchair,

665
01:05:53,600 --> 01:06:00,160
you're an analyst, a cultural analyst, looking at, for example, contemporary photos from

666
01:06:00,160 --> 01:06:07,240
the 1880s and arriving at a lot of incorrect conclusions about these people.

667
01:06:07,240 --> 01:06:11,480
These were individuals who, you know, will take Myrish or Ubell.

668
01:06:11,480 --> 01:06:16,480
We will take Frank James, just two examples, Cole Younger, I think you could put him right

669
01:06:16,480 --> 01:06:17,480
in there.

670
01:06:17,480 --> 01:06:23,560
Individuals, Joe Shelby, very much so, although he's not a bandit, but that was thanks to

671
01:06:23,560 --> 01:06:24,560
the war.

672
01:06:24,560 --> 01:06:31,840
That, you know, that because if you take if you took Joe Shelby's actions and just moved

673
01:06:31,840 --> 01:06:38,400
them five years forward, history would have would have probably remembered him a little

674
01:06:38,400 --> 01:06:39,400
bit differently.

675
01:06:39,400 --> 01:06:51,400
So, individuals who, again, extraordinarily articulate, educated, thoughtful individuals

676
01:06:51,400 --> 01:07:05,880
who I would say that their intelligence led to some of the successes of their exploits.

677
01:07:05,880 --> 01:07:10,480
And in some cases, like Joe Shelby and Frank to their longevity.

678
01:07:10,480 --> 01:07:18,880
Yes, no, I agree entirely there.

679
01:07:18,880 --> 01:07:27,000
And you know, it's a few episodes back when we were discussing Joe Shelby, there's one

680
01:07:27,000 --> 01:07:36,520
quote of someone describing he and his men, you know, riding to Mexico and getting to

681
01:07:36,520 --> 01:07:38,480
the Rio Grande.

682
01:07:38,480 --> 01:07:44,400
Someone said, you know, they could, you know, here came these 600 Missourians and see this

683
01:07:44,400 --> 01:07:54,120
man with black hat and plume and, you know, the red beard and he looked like somebody.

684
01:07:54,120 --> 01:07:58,760
And I think that's a good summation of a lot of these characters is that, yeah, they looked

685
01:07:58,760 --> 01:08:03,880
like someone because they knew how to carry themselves.

686
01:08:03,880 --> 01:08:10,280
They knew what they were doing and they were intelligent, smart people, or they wouldn't

687
01:08:10,280 --> 01:08:13,240
have survived as long as they did.

688
01:08:13,240 --> 01:08:17,840
No, no, and they were also living a very dangerous life.

689
01:08:17,840 --> 01:08:27,120
And so in some cases, you know, the individuals who didn't survive as long, you know, attrition,

690
01:08:27,120 --> 01:08:35,240
essentially, and then in a very unique American asymmetrical battlefield.

691
01:08:35,240 --> 01:08:36,240
Well put.

692
01:08:36,240 --> 01:08:37,240
Agreed.

693
01:08:37,240 --> 01:08:42,840
And I'm specifically thinking of Bell Star.

694
01:08:42,840 --> 01:08:45,360
Yes.

695
01:08:45,360 --> 01:08:52,000
We got to, we got just a couple of months ago, we were standing outside her house.

696
01:08:52,000 --> 01:08:57,240
Yes, her, the house she grew up in.

697
01:08:57,240 --> 01:09:03,320
And the funny thing is, you look at that house and it has an addition on it that's been put

698
01:09:03,320 --> 01:09:04,320
on later.

699
01:09:04,320 --> 01:09:07,920
That house wasn't that big.

700
01:09:07,920 --> 01:09:16,560
But it was the house of one of the largest landowners in the region.

701
01:09:16,560 --> 01:09:21,080
And one of the wealthiest men in the region.

702
01:09:21,080 --> 01:09:25,480
Although you look at that house now and you most people would look at and say, oh, that

703
01:09:25,480 --> 01:09:32,920
was, you know, a tenant sharecropper or something, you know, because it's a small house.

704
01:09:32,920 --> 01:09:33,920
Yes.

705
01:09:33,920 --> 01:09:37,360
And not so at all.

706
01:09:37,360 --> 01:09:50,120
And then of course, we've stood in front of where her nest home was in Carthage on the

707
01:09:50,120 --> 01:09:58,200
square that had the Carthage Hotel and they lived there.

708
01:09:58,200 --> 01:10:04,520
And both places, ironically, are haunted.

709
01:10:04,520 --> 01:10:06,240
Yes.

710
01:10:06,240 --> 01:10:11,960
And of course, the home that we're referencing, is it Red Oak 2?

711
01:10:11,960 --> 01:10:12,960
Yes.

712
01:10:12,960 --> 01:10:23,160
Just out of there in Jasper County, fantastic Route 66 location.

713
01:10:23,160 --> 01:10:30,360
And ironically, the house that the Dalton boys grew up in in Oklahoma is there as well.

714
01:10:30,360 --> 01:10:33,640
The properties are just migrating the Red Oak.

715
01:10:33,640 --> 01:10:36,160
Yes, they are.

716
01:10:36,160 --> 01:10:45,360
It's like the house in the legend of Baba Yaga on Chicken Leg.

717
01:10:45,360 --> 01:10:49,040
They just get up one day and walk the Red Oak.

718
01:10:49,040 --> 01:10:52,920
Big Lowell would be proud.

719
01:10:52,920 --> 01:10:53,920
He would.

720
01:10:53,920 --> 01:11:00,680
But seriously, so you have both of those, you know, the houses that the Dalton boys

721
01:11:00,680 --> 01:11:10,280
and Bell Star grew up in sitting right there and both of them with activity.

722
01:11:10,280 --> 01:11:20,080
And I think what you said about seeing pictures, et cetera, I think that's very deceptive too.

723
01:11:20,080 --> 01:11:27,400
And I think in Bell's case, it really is because most of the photos, at least that I've seen,

724
01:11:27,400 --> 01:11:31,000
are a little later in her life, although she died at 42.

725
01:11:31,000 --> 01:11:36,600
She died young, shot in the back.

726
01:11:36,600 --> 01:11:47,040
Now a neighbor, and I forget his name, was charged and convicted and actually executed

727
01:11:47,040 --> 01:11:49,160
for her murder.

728
01:11:49,160 --> 01:11:53,280
But there are so many questions about whether he really did it.

729
01:11:53,280 --> 01:11:56,560
It is still listed as unsolved.

730
01:11:56,560 --> 01:12:00,520
And it was over a dance, actually.

731
01:12:00,520 --> 01:12:03,720
And whereabouts was that?

732
01:12:03,720 --> 01:12:16,720
In Oklahoma, she had a ranch and she had gone to a dance and had danced with this neighbor

733
01:12:16,720 --> 01:12:30,280
fella and he asked her for another hand and she declined and then danced with a share

734
01:12:30,280 --> 01:12:31,960
cropper.

735
01:12:31,960 --> 01:12:36,840
And the story went he was mad that she wouldn't dance with him again and he followed her home

736
01:12:36,840 --> 01:12:38,560
and shot her.

737
01:12:38,560 --> 01:12:39,920
And he was convicted.

738
01:12:39,920 --> 01:12:45,840
But then so many people doubt that most people say now we really don't know if he did or

739
01:12:45,840 --> 01:12:50,800
not.

740
01:12:50,800 --> 01:12:56,200
So most of the photos are from that time period and she looks fairly rough at that point.

741
01:12:56,200 --> 01:13:07,960
I mean, unfortunately, she had lived a pretty rough life from the time she was 14 on.

742
01:13:07,960 --> 01:13:08,960
Yes.

743
01:13:08,960 --> 01:13:14,840
And one of the things, because we're often talking about Bell Star in relationship to

744
01:13:14,840 --> 01:13:26,680
the Missouri Ozarks and especially in relationship to a very young career, the essentially teenage

745
01:13:26,680 --> 01:13:32,080
spy career during the Civil War.

746
01:13:32,080 --> 01:13:39,920
But you move into her later career when she is an adult and it is figuring heavily, heavily

747
01:13:39,920 --> 01:13:43,280
involves Oklahoma and of course the Oklahoma Ozarks.

748
01:13:43,280 --> 01:13:49,240
But are some in terms of that aspect of her essentially outlaw career, what are some really

749
01:13:49,240 --> 01:13:54,400
standout moments for you that resonate in terms of this personality?

750
01:13:54,400 --> 01:14:03,640
Well, of course, she married Henry Star and now Henry robbed one of the banks at Coffeeville

751
01:14:03,640 --> 01:14:09,880
as well as the the Dalton's attempted to.

752
01:14:09,880 --> 01:14:21,960
But she had been involved in some of the robberies, etc. and Judge Parker at Fort Smith got to

753
01:14:21,960 --> 01:14:22,960
be in his bonnet.

754
01:14:22,960 --> 01:14:35,760
He he wanted to put them in prison and they the marshals and the prosecutor, which is

755
01:14:35,760 --> 01:14:43,360
one of the Clayton brothers, and we've discussed him in the past, were really focusing on trying

756
01:14:43,360 --> 01:14:47,800
to build a case against them.

757
01:14:47,800 --> 01:14:59,000
And the story goes that Bell actually paid someone to kill Clayton at a county fair,

758
01:14:59,000 --> 01:15:07,200
but then found out that they had issued a warrant for her arrest and that Bass Reeves

759
01:15:07,200 --> 01:15:11,040
had the warrant.

760
01:15:11,040 --> 01:15:16,920
And rumor went that she called off the hit on Clayton at that point.

761
01:15:16,920 --> 01:15:17,920
Eventually.

762
01:15:17,920 --> 01:15:22,640
Now, one of the articles that we had tonight actually say that she was never convicted

763
01:15:22,640 --> 01:15:23,640
of anything.

764
01:15:23,640 --> 01:15:25,520
Now, that's not exactly true.

765
01:15:25,520 --> 01:15:30,360
Judge Parker sent her to prison, federal prison in Minnesota.

766
01:15:30,360 --> 01:15:35,480
And after she got out of prison, she bought a ranch in Oklahoma.

767
01:15:35,480 --> 01:15:39,400
Oh, it's.

768
01:15:39,400 --> 01:15:53,000
But you know, that's sort of the counterpoint to is you have, you know, not only was she

769
01:15:53,000 --> 01:16:00,000
wealthy, but she was, you know, she wasn't debutante, spoke multiple languages, played

770
01:16:00,000 --> 01:16:03,320
multiple instruments, et cetera.

771
01:16:03,320 --> 01:16:11,360
And you had the sight of her as the bandit queen, but she was also a mother.

772
01:16:11,360 --> 01:16:17,840
Her daughter Pearl and her son, Bud, they referred to him as Bud, you know, which was

773
01:16:17,840 --> 01:16:21,720
her brother who was killed in the war.

774
01:16:21,720 --> 01:16:30,080
And I like that dichotomy because she fits the mold of the social bandit.

775
01:16:30,080 --> 01:16:34,600
But yet she was a mother.

776
01:16:34,600 --> 01:16:39,720
But most of the photos that you see of her later in life, she looks pretty rough.

777
01:16:39,720 --> 01:16:46,040
And so people would look at that and not as and I think probably not assume that she had

778
01:16:46,040 --> 01:16:48,200
the background that she did.

779
01:16:48,200 --> 01:16:49,200
Very true.

780
01:16:49,200 --> 01:16:54,280
And you know, again, I think it's a it's a it's a common theme that I'm excited that

781
01:16:54,280 --> 01:17:01,440
we're exploring on tonight's episode is the misconceptions, the unspoken misconceptions

782
01:17:01,440 --> 01:17:06,400
that arise around these characters.

783
01:17:06,400 --> 01:17:09,080
I agree.

784
01:17:09,080 --> 01:17:17,640
I think that Bell is more complicated than most people assume.

785
01:17:17,640 --> 01:17:29,320
And in some ways, she she I mean, she's well known, but she doesn't quite have the reputation

786
01:17:29,320 --> 01:17:33,160
of, say, even Clamaday Jane or any Oakley.

787
01:17:33,160 --> 01:17:40,800
And I think partly because, again, as you said, she died fairly early.

788
01:17:40,800 --> 01:17:46,800
And and before the traveling like the Western shows and stuff, you know, exactly what I

789
01:17:46,800 --> 01:17:55,560
was going to say before having the opportunity to do something that I'm sure is not uniquely

790
01:17:55,560 --> 01:18:00,200
American, that's a unique expression of Americanism.

791
01:18:00,200 --> 01:18:06,640
The idea that you get out of prison and then you go on the road playing yourself for vaudeville.

792
01:18:06,640 --> 01:18:07,640
Pretty much so.

793
01:18:07,640 --> 01:18:11,880
You know, the you know, Buffalo Bills, while West shows and so forth, which, of course,

794
01:18:11,880 --> 01:18:13,200
they took to Europe, too.

795
01:18:13,200 --> 01:18:19,200
So I mean, when you say, you know, it wasn't uniquely American, it was American, but the

796
01:18:19,200 --> 01:18:22,960
Europeans relished in it.

797
01:18:22,960 --> 01:18:34,440
And and I think there's a you know, that that that interesting through line of.

798
01:18:34,440 --> 01:18:43,560
Culture, history, folk art, bombast.

799
01:18:43,560 --> 01:18:50,720
Free enterprise, capitalism, anything for a buck, whatever goes.

800
01:18:50,720 --> 01:19:00,280
That is it's sometimes easy to get disdainful about it when you see it on parade today,

801
01:19:00,280 --> 01:19:07,160
but it has an incredibly long lineage in terms of making up our culture and something that

802
01:19:07,160 --> 01:19:15,800
you see not inconsistently is taking turns into the extraordinary macabre, extraordinarily

803
01:19:15,800 --> 01:19:25,960
macabre aspects when a an outlaw meets their end and then their corpses put on display

804
01:19:25,960 --> 01:19:29,240
for a nickel of view.

805
01:19:29,240 --> 01:19:30,240
Very true, very true.

806
01:19:30,240 --> 01:19:35,560
And that I mean, that happened quite a bit in part.

807
01:19:35,560 --> 01:19:38,920
For two reasons, one to prove that it really was them.

808
01:19:38,920 --> 01:19:46,520
And for people who didn't know who they were or didn't know them to know to recognize them

809
01:19:46,520 --> 01:19:53,360
to see what this this notorious person really looked like.

810
01:19:53,360 --> 01:19:58,440
And I think, you know, that morbid curiosity is the same thing as during the same time

811
01:19:58,440 --> 01:20:03,120
period, people going to public execution, public hangings, you know, you take the family

812
01:20:03,120 --> 01:20:06,120
and a picnic basket.

813
01:20:06,120 --> 01:20:19,560
I'm still planning mine out in terms of the menu.

814
01:20:19,560 --> 01:20:24,540
You know, and also, you know, all of those things and then reaching this apex, and it's

815
01:20:24,540 --> 01:20:30,640
also an opportunity for the local drugstore to pay off their, you know, their debt.

816
01:20:30,640 --> 01:20:39,720
Look, honey, we can finally get a new roof.

817
01:20:39,720 --> 01:20:44,480
And at the rate they're coming in, we only need to be doing this for maybe another 12

818
01:20:44,480 --> 01:20:45,480
hours.

819
01:20:45,480 --> 01:20:46,480
Exactly.

820
01:20:46,480 --> 01:20:52,320
But you know, and what amazes me with that, though, is that how long that went on.

821
01:20:52,320 --> 01:20:57,400
I mean, you know, that they happened with the Depression era gangsters as well, you

822
01:20:57,400 --> 01:20:58,400
know.

823
01:20:58,400 --> 01:20:59,400
It did.

824
01:20:59,400 --> 01:21:05,400
I'm just off on my own little tangent, but I'm imagining, you know, the owner of the

825
01:21:05,400 --> 01:21:09,920
local business trying to figure out how to get word to the next town to hobble the horse

826
01:21:09,920 --> 01:21:14,360
temporarily that's carrying the court injunction against the display.

827
01:21:14,360 --> 01:21:20,840
Well, that's the thing is that for that time period, you know, a lot of times it really

828
01:21:20,840 --> 01:21:21,840
wasn't one.

829
01:21:21,840 --> 01:21:31,760
The injunction came when it got too smelly, I think.

830
01:21:31,760 --> 01:21:34,720
The crowds are coming in anymore for the flies.

831
01:21:34,720 --> 01:21:35,720
Right.

832
01:21:35,720 --> 01:21:50,480
It's again, I think it's, you know, part of the complex magic of the American West and

833
01:21:50,480 --> 01:21:56,600
such a great deal of the American West, of the mythos of the American West was created

834
01:21:56,600 --> 01:21:59,600
in the Ozarks.

835
01:21:59,600 --> 01:22:08,200
That much of that complexity, we experience bits and pieces of it enough to find it alluring

836
01:22:08,200 --> 01:22:11,600
in various ways or interesting or vicarious.

837
01:22:11,600 --> 01:22:21,840
But at the end of the day, this was a really, to put it bluntly, a really weird moment in

838
01:22:21,840 --> 01:22:24,840
Western civilization.

839
01:22:24,840 --> 01:22:28,720
I mean, it really was.

840
01:22:28,720 --> 01:22:34,600
But in some ways, it's kind of a very honest moment to do.

841
01:22:34,600 --> 01:22:35,600
Very.

842
01:22:35,600 --> 01:22:46,280
I mean, I'll explain my thought structure on this, but weird in the sense that in many

843
01:22:46,280 --> 01:22:55,000
cases the individuals who were at the fringes of American settlement were, as we've noted

844
01:22:55,000 --> 01:22:57,760
before, often individuals of considerable means.

845
01:22:57,760 --> 01:23:04,360
They were often highly educated, highly intellectual in terms of their reading and their

846
01:23:04,360 --> 01:23:14,480
forewithal, but they were also moving to these fringes because of their desire for a variety

847
01:23:14,480 --> 01:23:18,480
of things, obviously to exploit natural resources for their own gain, yes.

848
01:23:18,480 --> 01:23:24,520
And I say that lovingly because that's what we do.

849
01:23:24,520 --> 01:23:29,360
We want to do well at what we do.

850
01:23:29,360 --> 01:23:37,480
But there was also a driving force of the virtues of individualism and the virtues of

851
01:23:37,480 --> 01:23:45,880
survival and the virtues of these elements that the bandits, the social bandits, really

852
01:23:45,880 --> 01:23:57,000
ultimately manifested or expressed in a unique way into larger society, but that are American

853
01:23:57,000 --> 01:23:59,680
virtues, American ideals.

854
01:23:59,680 --> 01:24:05,440
They did not want to be under somebody's thumb and structured and etc. etc.

855
01:24:05,440 --> 01:24:14,120
They wanted to be at the at the fringes, at the edge where they could make a name for

856
01:24:14,120 --> 01:24:19,960
themselves, where they could create something new, where in some cases they could, for lack

857
01:24:19,960 --> 01:24:26,240
of a better word, term, feel as though they were truly being themselves and expressing

858
01:24:26,240 --> 01:24:38,800
themselves in and those at the same time were doing so at the in some cases the edges of

859
01:24:38,800 --> 01:24:47,800
survival at the edges of endurance at the edges of of having material in terms of, you

860
01:24:47,800 --> 01:24:56,920
know, that, for example, Bell Star's father, wealthy landowner, but the building you look

861
01:24:56,920 --> 01:25:02,600
at it today, it's not the Hermitage, it's not Mount Vernon.

862
01:25:02,600 --> 01:25:06,120
The infrastructure resources simply were not there to do that.

863
01:25:06,120 --> 01:25:10,400
And I'm assuming based on the decisions of many of these individuals, they were okay

864
01:25:10,400 --> 01:25:16,240
with that because they knew that was the price they had to pay to be themselves in this space.

865
01:25:16,240 --> 01:25:24,760
I think so and with the idea that over time they could develop that that that small house

866
01:25:24,760 --> 01:25:26,880
would become the bigger house etc.

867
01:25:26,880 --> 01:25:32,760
And in his case, he did end up owning basically the north side of the Carthage Square with

868
01:25:32,760 --> 01:25:39,200
all the buildings, you know, so he did do that.

869
01:25:39,200 --> 01:25:47,200
And I think building on what you said, I think part of an unspoken part of this recognition

870
01:25:47,200 --> 01:25:56,120
of these people that may be tacitly some people don't want to admit is they looked at that

871
01:25:56,120 --> 01:26:02,680
in the same time, contemporarily, and also in retrospect, look at some of these people,

872
01:26:02,680 --> 01:26:12,440
the situations that they were in and came out of and there's a I think for a lot of

873
01:26:12,440 --> 01:26:19,760
people, they don't want to admit it, but you at least a silent recognition that these people

874
01:26:19,760 --> 01:26:28,200
came out of situations like the Civil War and being branded outlaws and basically left

875
01:26:28,200 --> 01:26:39,840
with little legitimate means of supporting yourself and right or wrong as far as the

876
01:26:39,840 --> 01:26:42,040
law goes.

877
01:26:42,040 --> 01:26:50,120
They survived and more than survived where most people wouldn't have and I think that

878
01:26:50,120 --> 01:26:55,400
is something that Americans admire.

879
01:26:55,400 --> 01:27:05,280
And today, people all go the same way over billionaires.

880
01:27:05,280 --> 01:27:06,280
That's very true.

881
01:27:06,280 --> 01:27:09,480
And in some ways, what's the difference?

882
01:27:09,480 --> 01:27:13,320
Very, very true.

883
01:27:13,320 --> 01:27:18,880
It's it does it really helps to create that sense of perspective.

884
01:27:18,880 --> 01:27:25,240
And it is definitely a continuation of a theme.

885
01:27:25,240 --> 01:27:33,480
I'm curious if this is as true in other cultures as in American culture, but certainly in American

886
01:27:33,480 --> 01:27:37,800
culture, we love a winner.

887
01:27:37,800 --> 01:27:42,000
Well and we love a winner and we love social mobility.

888
01:27:42,000 --> 01:27:52,640
And let's face it, coming out of Europe, traditionally, there was from 99.99% of the people there

889
01:27:52,640 --> 01:27:57,360
really was not any opportunity for social mobility.

890
01:27:57,360 --> 01:28:05,080
So we have always applauded that in America.

891
01:28:05,080 --> 01:28:13,160
And then when you have someone who does it despite all of those circumstances that they're

892
01:28:13,160 --> 01:28:21,860
in, whether you agree how they got there or not, I mean, implicitly, there's a nod of,

893
01:28:21,860 --> 01:28:27,880
you know, they made it, they got through, they figured out a way where most people wouldn't

894
01:28:27,880 --> 01:28:29,360
have.

895
01:28:29,360 --> 01:28:30,840
Yes.

896
01:28:30,840 --> 01:28:32,040
Yeah.

897
01:28:32,040 --> 01:28:34,240
And it's powerful.

898
01:28:34,240 --> 01:28:39,960
It's very, in a weird sense, it's deeply inspiring.

899
01:28:39,960 --> 01:28:42,520
Yes.

900
01:28:42,520 --> 01:28:45,520
It's very complicated.

901
01:28:45,520 --> 01:28:56,880
Which I want to, we'll come back to the Marlow brothers in a moment, but speaking of complicated,

902
01:28:56,880 --> 01:29:02,800
I want to segue directly into John Wilkes Booth in Oklahoma.

903
01:29:02,800 --> 01:29:20,600
This was news to me, but I think it's appropriate when you take into consideration the extraordinary

904
01:29:20,600 --> 01:29:28,000
heightened emotions involved with Lincoln's assassination, the swift retribution that

905
01:29:28,000 --> 01:29:34,040
took place afterwards, or apparently swift retribution.

906
01:29:34,040 --> 01:29:41,760
And then the weird, definitely not in the sense of Jesse James as a folk hero, because

907
01:29:41,760 --> 01:29:48,680
they don't really think that we see Booth in any of that light, but as a folk figure

908
01:29:48,680 --> 01:30:01,600
with his own conspiracy theories that just crop up at various times and cause certain

909
01:30:01,600 --> 01:30:03,160
levels of perplexity.

910
01:30:03,160 --> 01:30:11,880
Well, and I think, aside from the fact that Americans tend to do that with a lot of prominent

911
01:30:11,880 --> 01:30:22,560
people who die in odd ways, there actually were, there are some facts that I think kind

912
01:30:22,560 --> 01:30:38,120
of propelled this idea that Booth survived and went west and lived a long life, et cetera.

913
01:30:38,120 --> 01:30:48,280
One is that the way he was killed in the barn, specifically there had been orders not to

914
01:30:48,280 --> 01:30:59,280
kill him, and one soldier just started shooting, and it ended up being a soldier that they

915
01:30:59,280 --> 01:31:04,240
think actually had Southern empathy.

916
01:31:04,240 --> 01:31:17,760
And so that started stories that this was a cover, and there were accounts that the

917
01:31:17,760 --> 01:31:25,280
body did not match his medical records, et cetera.

918
01:31:25,280 --> 01:31:36,240
And so you had these ideas floating around that maybe they did not really get him.

919
01:31:36,240 --> 01:31:47,800
So it leaves the possibility of people ruminating about this, and then people making claims

920
01:31:47,800 --> 01:31:53,760
they are that person years later or on their deathbed, which not only happened with him,

921
01:31:53,760 --> 01:31:58,160
but with Jesse James, all kinds of, you had people who claimed later that they were Billy

922
01:31:58,160 --> 01:32:00,920
the Kid and Jesse James, et cetera.

923
01:32:00,920 --> 01:32:13,080
So it's kind of like Anastasia.

924
01:32:13,080 --> 01:32:20,600
And you did have someone who impersonated her for decades and fooled a lot of people

925
01:32:20,600 --> 01:32:26,240
at royal courts in Europe who were related to the Romanovs.

926
01:32:26,240 --> 01:32:33,640
And then she was not her.

927
01:32:33,640 --> 01:32:46,280
And I think first of all, it speaks to a very interesting aspect of mental state and celebrity

928
01:32:46,280 --> 01:32:51,480
impersonation.

929
01:32:51,480 --> 01:32:57,520
I don't have the complex background necessary to decipher the mental state that would make

930
01:32:57,520 --> 01:33:04,080
someone want to do that, but it's not terribly uncommon or simply the desire for fame or

931
01:33:04,080 --> 01:33:13,440
the desire for attention is in some instances extremely alluring.

932
01:33:13,440 --> 01:33:21,800
And in an earlier era where it was much easier to hide, it was also much easier to pretend.

933
01:33:21,800 --> 01:33:25,520
Yes.

934
01:33:25,520 --> 01:33:36,280
It's much harder to have that off the grid presence now and not leave, it's much harder

935
01:33:36,280 --> 01:33:42,280
not to have a paper trail, et cetera.

936
01:33:42,280 --> 01:33:46,000
And I think for a lot of people, a lot of people don't even realize how much different

937
01:33:46,000 --> 01:33:48,800
it is now versus then in those regards.

938
01:33:48,800 --> 01:33:53,320
I mean, a lot of people didn't have birth certificates or anything else.

939
01:33:53,320 --> 01:33:59,480
So they could reimagine their story.

940
01:33:59,480 --> 01:34:04,440
And so if you were inclined to do so for whatever reason, people did.

941
01:34:04,440 --> 01:34:11,840
But yes, so yes, there's this theory that John Wilt Sputh lived out of his life in Oklahoma.

942
01:34:11,840 --> 01:34:20,960
And as with all great and perplexing conspiracy theories, it's difficult to for sure say that

943
01:34:20,960 --> 01:34:23,960
that didn't happen.

944
01:34:23,960 --> 01:34:33,840
As far as I know, they've never done DNA testing on those remains.

945
01:34:33,840 --> 01:34:36,840
And I'm not sure what actually happened with his remains after.

946
01:34:36,840 --> 01:34:42,120
I'm not either come to think of it.

947
01:34:42,120 --> 01:34:48,800
That might be an opening of someone being able to do this if they really can't be found.

948
01:34:48,800 --> 01:34:58,360
So now the reference that I have says that the man purported to be Booth, his body actually

949
01:34:58,360 --> 01:35:03,320
was embalmed and put on display until it disappeared.

950
01:35:03,320 --> 01:35:04,320
Yes.

951
01:35:04,320 --> 01:35:05,320
Yes.

952
01:35:05,320 --> 01:35:06,320
Yes.

953
01:35:06,320 --> 01:35:13,600
And it was put on display for public viewing and claimed to be Booth.

954
01:35:13,600 --> 01:35:15,240
A lot of that happened.

955
01:35:15,240 --> 01:35:19,840
A lot of those kind of things seem to happen in Oklahoma, actually.

956
01:35:19,840 --> 01:35:21,880
They did.

957
01:35:21,880 --> 01:35:24,880
They really did.

958
01:35:24,880 --> 01:35:28,480
It makes me worry to do investigations over there.

959
01:35:28,480 --> 01:35:32,120
I don't know if I might end up in somebody's front register.

960
01:35:32,120 --> 01:35:36,120
Just don't die or get embalmed in Oklahoma.

961
01:35:36,120 --> 01:35:37,120
We're teasing.

962
01:35:37,120 --> 01:35:41,880
Yes, we are teasing.

963
01:35:41,880 --> 01:35:48,360
Now I handed it to John Wayne references.

964
01:35:48,360 --> 01:35:51,640
The first, of course, is True Grit.

965
01:35:51,640 --> 01:35:59,240
The first, and of course, there's two films, one with John Wayne and what looks like the

966
01:35:59,240 --> 01:36:02,720
Canadian Rockies are standing in for Oklahoma in that film.

967
01:36:02,720 --> 01:36:09,400
I'm not exactly sure where it was filmed, but it certainly wasn't Oklahoma, even though

968
01:36:09,400 --> 01:36:14,360
that's where the Arkansas and Oklahoma is where the book, the original novel by Portis

969
01:36:14,360 --> 01:36:17,360
is based.

970
01:36:17,360 --> 01:36:21,480
Then the second film, which is by the Coen Brothers, isn't it?

971
01:36:21,480 --> 01:36:28,480
I'm not sure if the Coen Brothers produced it, but Jeff Bridges played the lead.

972
01:36:28,480 --> 01:36:29,480
Yes.

973
01:36:29,480 --> 01:36:30,480
I love it.

974
01:36:30,480 --> 01:36:31,480
The soundtrack is fantastic.

975
01:36:31,480 --> 01:36:38,000
I think it was shot in northern Texas.

976
01:36:38,000 --> 01:36:45,840
It definitely has much more of a regional vibe to it.

977
01:36:45,840 --> 01:36:52,400
It does appear much more realistic for the setting of where it's supposed to be.

978
01:36:52,400 --> 01:36:55,160
It's a phenomenal film.

979
01:36:55,160 --> 01:36:57,800
Highly recommend it.

980
01:36:57,800 --> 01:37:01,000
To be perfectly honest, I like it better than the original.

981
01:37:01,000 --> 01:37:02,000
I do too.

982
01:37:02,000 --> 01:37:03,000
I do too.

983
01:37:03,000 --> 01:37:05,000
Although I love John Wayne.

984
01:37:05,000 --> 01:37:08,120
I do like the original.

985
01:37:08,120 --> 01:37:15,040
Well, I have mixed feelings about the original, but I do like John Wayne.

986
01:37:15,040 --> 01:37:16,040
Yeah.

987
01:37:16,040 --> 01:37:18,240
I mean, I'll say this.

988
01:37:18,240 --> 01:37:22,440
Growing up, I liked the original.

989
01:37:22,440 --> 01:37:29,200
When they announced that they were doing the remake, I hoped that it would be good.

990
01:37:29,200 --> 01:37:33,240
My opinion is they knocked it out of the ballpark.

991
01:37:33,240 --> 01:37:34,240
I agree.

992
01:37:34,240 --> 01:37:39,920
It actually makes me want to... I have it on DVD and may put it in later tonight just

993
01:37:39,920 --> 01:37:42,640
because.

994
01:37:42,640 --> 01:37:49,800
As far as films, there's a very unique Oklahoma connection with a great John Wayne film, The

995
01:37:49,800 --> 01:37:51,800
Suns of Petey Elder.

996
01:37:51,800 --> 01:37:52,800
Yes.

997
01:37:52,800 --> 01:37:53,800
Yes.

998
01:37:53,800 --> 01:38:06,440
It's really a great story in a lot of ways that turns a lot of these cliches on its head.

999
01:38:06,440 --> 01:38:07,440
I think so.

1000
01:38:07,440 --> 01:38:13,720
Of course, we're talking about the tragedy that took place in regards to the Marlowe

1001
01:38:13,720 --> 01:38:14,720
family.

1002
01:38:14,720 --> 01:38:15,720
Yes.

1003
01:38:15,720 --> 01:38:28,040
When we say that it inspired the film, The Suns of Petey Elder, very loosely, there was

1004
01:38:28,040 --> 01:38:36,520
a biography written in regards to the Marlowe brothers.

1005
01:38:36,520 --> 01:38:48,960
In 1892 and in the 1950s, Hollywood purchased the rights and then ultimately made The Suns

1006
01:38:48,960 --> 01:38:57,240
of Petey Elder with John Wayne and Dean Martin.

1007
01:38:57,240 --> 01:38:59,520
They changed a lot.

1008
01:38:59,520 --> 01:39:00,840
Yes.

1009
01:39:00,840 --> 01:39:05,040
They did.

1010
01:39:05,040 --> 01:39:20,480
But what I find very interesting is one that you can't just categorize the Marlowe brothers

1011
01:39:20,480 --> 01:39:24,440
as white hat or black hat.

1012
01:39:24,440 --> 01:39:27,880
That's a good point.

1013
01:39:27,880 --> 01:39:37,880
It is, I guess, in a real sense, it's a very realistic story that doesn't have quite the

1014
01:39:37,880 --> 01:39:42,360
mythos or the social bandit aspect so much.

1015
01:39:42,360 --> 01:39:51,760
There's a lot of what I would classify as terror, survival, and pragmatism.

1016
01:39:51,760 --> 01:39:54,720
Yes.

1017
01:39:54,720 --> 01:40:06,320
I think this is the only story that I know of that the prisoners not only thwarted a

1018
01:40:06,320 --> 01:40:11,320
lynching mob but ran them off twice.

1019
01:40:11,320 --> 01:40:12,320
Yes.

1020
01:40:12,320 --> 01:40:22,040
There's some confusing aspects to this.

1021
01:40:22,040 --> 01:40:34,960
The general take or my general take is that the various members of the Marlowe brothers

1022
01:40:34,960 --> 01:40:43,320
may or may not but probably didn't commit the crimes that they were being arrested for.

1023
01:40:43,320 --> 01:40:46,280
That's my take.

1024
01:40:46,280 --> 01:40:52,480
We really don't know because of everything that happened afterwards but those questions

1025
01:40:52,480 --> 01:40:57,800
really never got sorted out.

1026
01:40:57,800 --> 01:41:08,960
They were being arrested for stealing horses, if I remember right.

1027
01:41:08,960 --> 01:41:10,720
They were from Oklahoma.

1028
01:41:10,720 --> 01:41:14,240
They were Oklahoma sons.

1029
01:41:14,240 --> 01:41:27,880
But they ended up basically in Texas and had gotten arrested before the brothers got arrested

1030
01:41:27,880 --> 01:41:33,080
originally, if I remember right.

1031
01:41:33,080 --> 01:41:37,960
They were in jail.

1032
01:41:37,960 --> 01:41:48,680
Basically one of the landowners got a posse together and it included the city attorney,

1033
01:41:48,680 --> 01:41:58,000
jail guards, etc. to basically break them out of jail and lynch them.

1034
01:41:58,000 --> 01:42:07,720
They basically got a hold of weapons in the jail and fought the mob off.

1035
01:42:07,720 --> 01:42:12,200
I don't have the documentation on this but I know we messaged about this a little bit

1036
01:42:12,200 --> 01:42:13,200
earlier prior to the episode.

1037
01:42:13,200 --> 01:42:18,000
I'm going to go out on a limb and say that in some way, shape or form they had direct

1038
01:42:18,000 --> 01:42:19,000
Welsh ancestry.

1039
01:42:19,000 --> 01:42:30,080
I'm drawing from two points on this to make my case very prematurely.

1040
01:42:30,080 --> 01:42:33,320
One their puckish sense of survival.

1041
01:42:33,320 --> 01:42:36,800
Two their kinship.

1042
01:42:36,800 --> 01:42:42,360
And three, one of the brothers who went by the name of Epp as a nickname, his actual

1043
01:42:42,360 --> 01:42:45,360
name was Llewellyn.

1044
01:42:45,360 --> 01:42:50,680
That's very possible.

1045
01:42:50,680 --> 01:43:05,360
They definitely come off as coming out of Celtic honor culture in Clannadge.

1046
01:43:05,360 --> 01:43:10,040
One of the brothers escaped.

1047
01:43:10,040 --> 01:43:13,600
That was Boone.

1048
01:43:13,600 --> 01:43:18,720
They kept trying to find him.

1049
01:43:18,720 --> 01:43:25,840
He ultimately comes back to represent them, to plead their case and gets arrested.

1050
01:43:25,840 --> 01:43:36,720
But in between, they decide to move them to another jail and they get ambushed at Dry

1051
01:43:36,720 --> 01:43:43,480
Creek and it becomes known as the Dry Creek Ambush or Massacre.

1052
01:43:43,480 --> 01:43:50,840
And by a mob, it ends up looking like some of the guards that are moving the prisoners

1053
01:43:50,840 --> 01:43:54,960
are involved and throw weapons to the mob.

1054
01:43:54,960 --> 01:44:06,520
And again, the city attorney who was at the first mob is there and giving orders to the

1055
01:44:06,520 --> 01:44:07,520
brother.

1056
01:44:07,520 --> 01:44:09,440
They're shackled together, two brothers to two brothers.

1057
01:44:09,440 --> 01:44:14,920
Two of them get killed, each shackled to another brother.

1058
01:44:14,920 --> 01:44:21,360
And ultimately the brother, the living brothers to survive and then to fight off the mob have

1059
01:44:21,360 --> 01:44:27,320
to hack off their dead brothers.

1060
01:44:27,320 --> 01:44:30,800
In order to separate themselves because they were shackled together.

1061
01:44:30,800 --> 01:44:35,240
They were shackled together and each of the ones that were still alive had been wounded

1062
01:44:35,240 --> 01:44:38,440
at this point.

1063
01:44:38,440 --> 01:44:49,200
They had to do that to then fight off the mob.

1064
01:44:49,200 --> 01:45:00,200
And the long and short of it is a number of the members of the mob were ultimately found

1065
01:45:00,200 --> 01:45:02,200
guilty of crimes.

1066
01:45:02,200 --> 01:45:12,840
The Marlow family sued and was awarded damages for the loss of life of the brothers who were

1067
01:45:12,840 --> 01:45:15,480
killed.

1068
01:45:15,480 --> 01:45:20,400
And the two surviving brothers ultimately then moved to Colorado.

1069
01:45:20,400 --> 01:45:23,920
Can't imagine why they didn't want to stay.

1070
01:45:23,920 --> 01:45:28,080
And became model citizens and actually became law enforcement officers.

1071
01:45:28,080 --> 01:45:29,080
Yes.

1072
01:45:29,080 --> 01:45:33,480
And when I read that, I'm like, you know, I don't blame them for the last part.

1073
01:45:33,480 --> 01:45:37,240
No, I really don't at that point.

1074
01:45:37,240 --> 01:45:38,240
No.

1075
01:45:38,240 --> 01:45:40,440
The best protection possible.

1076
01:45:40,440 --> 01:45:45,080
We're going to move out of state and we're going to become police in that regard.

1077
01:45:45,080 --> 01:45:51,760
I love this in 1891 after sentencing mob members for their part of the attack, federal judge

1078
01:45:51,760 --> 01:45:54,520
A.P. McCormick had this quote.

1079
01:45:54,520 --> 01:45:59,640
This is the first time in the annals of history where unarmed prisoners shackled together

1080
01:45:59,640 --> 01:46:01,320
ever were called a mob.

1081
01:46:01,320 --> 01:46:06,760
Such cruel courage that prefer to fight against such great odds and die if at all in glorious

1082
01:46:06,760 --> 01:46:11,720
battle rather than die ignominiously by a frenzied mob deserves to be commemorated in

1083
01:46:11,720 --> 01:46:15,040
song and story.

1084
01:46:15,040 --> 01:46:20,040
This again, I guess, is the definition of social bandits.

1085
01:46:20,040 --> 01:46:22,620
Yeah.

1086
01:46:22,620 --> 01:46:27,800
We don't know whether or not they were really guilty of what they were accused of.

1087
01:46:27,800 --> 01:46:33,960
And to me, their story just really speaks to, again, a sense of kelpick kinship and

1088
01:46:33,960 --> 01:46:44,280
a sense of pragmatism and response or reaction in the face of increasing odds.

1089
01:46:44,280 --> 01:46:53,200
And a story of survival and tragedy that it is certainly in our time and place and, you

1090
01:46:53,200 --> 01:46:58,160
know, it does have strong elements of the social mandatory.

1091
01:46:58,160 --> 01:47:02,680
In this particular case, they did not have the support of the community.

1092
01:47:02,680 --> 01:47:07,360
It was the community that was trying to kill them.

1093
01:47:07,360 --> 01:47:08,360
That's true.

1094
01:47:08,360 --> 01:47:12,640
I mean, that is true.

1095
01:47:12,640 --> 01:47:27,120
But as a definite through line is their story in perhaps an unanticipated or offbeat way

1096
01:47:27,120 --> 01:47:34,400
injecting itself into the public consciousness of the popular consciousness, the Americana

1097
01:47:34,400 --> 01:47:43,200
consciousness with a film, a 1965 film, that most people who watched that film have no

1098
01:47:43,200 --> 01:47:51,120
idea that it is in some way inspired by the original events.

1099
01:47:51,120 --> 01:47:52,120
That's true.

1100
01:47:52,120 --> 01:47:57,640
Yeah, you would not know that it's based on true events.

1101
01:47:57,640 --> 01:48:15,240
And I think that for me, you know, it really speaks to just sort of the character of the

1102
01:48:15,240 --> 01:48:23,040
person, you know, coming through that the way they did and fighting as the judge noted.

1103
01:48:23,040 --> 01:48:32,800
And perhaps it's either was extremely, extremely hubris or indication that they were innocent,

1104
01:48:32,800 --> 01:48:41,480
that the older brother came to represent them and ended up in jail for his efforts.

1105
01:48:41,480 --> 01:48:50,000
So, but arrested by the same people that were in the mob.

1106
01:48:50,000 --> 01:48:51,000
Correct.

1107
01:48:51,000 --> 01:48:56,800
So I'm currently leaning toward their innocence.

1108
01:48:56,800 --> 01:48:57,800
Yes.

1109
01:48:57,800 --> 01:49:03,880
I mean, actually, I mean, in some ways, it has a little bit of overtone of Lincoln County

1110
01:49:03,880 --> 01:49:19,320
Wars in New Mexico and Billy the Kid sounding and in fact, another Oklahoma boy that's in

1111
01:49:19,320 --> 01:49:27,120
the readings for this week was Frank Waite, who left Oklahoma to become a cowboy and ended

1112
01:49:27,120 --> 01:49:43,320
up in Lincoln County working for John Tunstall, who was killed by the basically the large

1113
01:49:43,320 --> 01:49:54,640
cattlemen in the area and his employees then rode against them, including Billy the Kid.

1114
01:49:54,640 --> 01:50:01,400
And then but Frank Waite survived and was a law abiding citizen for the rest of his

1115
01:50:01,400 --> 01:50:06,880
life, much like the surviving Marlowe brothers.

1116
01:50:06,880 --> 01:50:17,520
It's inter almost like interlocking circles in terms of the individuals involved and the

1117
01:50:17,520 --> 01:50:20,440
just the experience.

1118
01:50:20,440 --> 01:50:26,560
Something that I want to talk about that involves some paranormal aspects just briefly, or maybe

1119
01:50:26,560 --> 01:50:29,680
not so briefly is Fort Gibson.

1120
01:50:29,680 --> 01:50:31,840
Yes.

1121
01:50:31,840 --> 01:50:34,680
And I'm looking forward to making it at Fort Gibson soon.

1122
01:50:34,680 --> 01:50:42,280
I've not been there, but you have and that's interesting, interesting experiences as well.

1123
01:50:42,280 --> 01:50:44,160
Yes.

1124
01:50:44,160 --> 01:50:47,120
Fort Gibson is very, it's very interesting.

1125
01:50:47,120 --> 01:50:56,200
It was a very early frontier fort established in the 1820s.

1126
01:50:56,200 --> 01:51:01,200
And when it was established, it really was on the frontier.

1127
01:51:01,200 --> 01:51:11,880
And basically it guarded the sort of the south western edge of those arts.

1128
01:51:11,880 --> 01:51:22,360
And you had some interesting names go through there, including Jefferson Davis, it was his

1129
01:51:22,360 --> 01:51:27,640
first station out of West Point.

1130
01:51:27,640 --> 01:51:38,600
And the remains of the building that he worked in are still there.

1131
01:51:38,600 --> 01:51:44,080
You just don't, you know, we have all these conceptions of the Civil War.

1132
01:51:44,080 --> 01:51:49,680
But again, most of these leaders even on Confederate side were union officers.

1133
01:51:49,680 --> 01:51:56,320
And he was there in the early 1830s.

1134
01:51:56,320 --> 01:52:07,080
And it saw a lot of a lot of activity before the Civil War and during the Civil War.

1135
01:52:07,080 --> 01:52:18,180
Actually it was the southern end of the supply train from Fort Scott, Kansas, and from points

1136
01:52:18,180 --> 01:52:21,260
in southwest Missouri.

1137
01:52:21,260 --> 01:52:31,040
So a lot of the bushwhackers in southwest Missouri and partisan rangers that whose job

1138
01:52:31,040 --> 01:52:41,200
was to disrupt union movements spent their time attacking the supply trains going to

1139
01:52:41,200 --> 01:52:43,920
Fort Gibson.

1140
01:52:43,920 --> 01:52:53,080
And it was the Arkansas River, the Vertigris River and Grand Rivers converge, creating

1141
01:52:53,080 --> 01:52:54,240
market at that point.

1142
01:52:54,240 --> 01:53:02,080
So in terms of river navigation from that point, and then supply chain, overland supply

1143
01:53:02,080 --> 01:53:09,960
chain to that point, this was an incredibly important location.

1144
01:53:09,960 --> 01:53:17,280
Yes, in fact, there were there were there were skirmishes even with Quantrell right

1145
01:53:17,280 --> 01:53:20,400
through there.

1146
01:53:20,400 --> 01:53:34,440
And where the armies were the army and the Confederates would fight across the rivers.

1147
01:53:34,440 --> 01:53:42,200
And tell me a little bit about your experience at Fort Gibson.

1148
01:53:42,200 --> 01:53:51,880
My own experience is that that some of the buildings have a lot of energy or a lot of

1149
01:53:51,880 --> 01:53:54,360
heaviness.

1150
01:53:54,360 --> 01:54:00,320
And you just there are a couple in particular you just really felt like you were walking

1151
01:54:00,320 --> 01:54:06,000
through points in time, if that makes sense.

1152
01:54:06,000 --> 01:54:13,880
I did not have a personal paranormal experience, but the Rangers there are pretty open talking

1153
01:54:13,880 --> 01:54:23,640
about what happens there, which you don't get at a lot of the parts.

1154
01:54:23,640 --> 01:54:34,480
But they taught openly about seeing apparitions at times, hearing voices.

1155
01:54:34,480 --> 01:54:43,780
But the one the story that moved me the most and I heard this from two different Rangers

1156
01:54:43,780 --> 01:54:56,760
is that at times they there's there's an open big open field in one part of the fort, and

1157
01:54:56,760 --> 01:55:07,000
that they will look out there at night if someone's there at night and there are phantom

1158
01:55:07,000 --> 01:55:12,280
campfires and they've seen images of tents.

1159
01:55:12,280 --> 01:55:20,200
And it's just images of an encampment, including the fires, etc.

1160
01:55:20,200 --> 01:55:25,840
And the first fellow who told me I thought, okay, he's embellishing, you know, he came

1161
01:55:25,840 --> 01:55:29,000
across as someone that he's embellishing.

1162
01:55:29,000 --> 01:55:36,800
And then later in the day, in another part of the fort, taught to someone else and he

1163
01:55:36,800 --> 01:55:46,040
gave a very similar account, but he did not he came across as just being very straightforward

1164
01:55:46,040 --> 01:55:47,720
and straight laced about it.

1165
01:55:47,720 --> 01:55:52,240
And I did not get the idea he was embellishing.

1166
01:55:52,240 --> 01:55:59,320
And so they really painted the scene of seeing this and they said there be sometimes they

1167
01:55:59,320 --> 01:56:10,440
will do night events and that you can just look out and it's almost as if you see encampment

1168
01:56:10,440 --> 01:56:16,200
that's slightly translucent.

1169
01:56:16,200 --> 01:56:23,040
Which is both really cool and really creepy all at the same time.

1170
01:56:23,040 --> 01:56:25,200
Exactly.

1171
01:56:25,200 --> 01:56:26,760
I like it.

1172
01:56:26,760 --> 01:56:30,040
It's very interesting.

1173
01:56:30,040 --> 01:56:37,000
And another thing is that it's actually a fort that it's straddled the old west and

1174
01:56:37,000 --> 01:56:43,000
that it was in use to I think the 1890s if I remember right.

1175
01:56:43,000 --> 01:56:46,000
Or very near, yes.

1176
01:56:46,000 --> 01:56:47,000
Yeah.

1177
01:56:47,000 --> 01:56:52,840
The location for the military.

1178
01:56:52,840 --> 01:57:00,320
Yeah whereas a lot of the forts in this region after the Civil War were decommissioned it

1179
01:57:00,320 --> 01:57:03,360
continued for decades later.

1180
01:57:03,360 --> 01:57:11,840
That's I think the more we talk about it the more I'm like I've got to get over there.

1181
01:57:11,840 --> 01:57:13,640
Yeah I want to get back.

1182
01:57:13,640 --> 01:57:17,320
It's been a number of years since I've been down there but it's really neat.

1183
01:57:17,320 --> 01:57:22,160
I would encourage anyone if you get the opportunity to check it out.

1184
01:57:22,160 --> 01:57:28,480
And even just the many of the locations that we're talking about in the eastern Oklahoma

1185
01:57:28,480 --> 01:57:34,720
which is the western Ozarks are extraordinarily beautiful.

1186
01:57:34,720 --> 01:57:37,040
It is a very pretty country.

1187
01:57:37,040 --> 01:57:47,040
It really is.

1188
01:57:47,040 --> 01:57:50,040
So what do we want to talk about?

1189
01:57:50,040 --> 01:57:53,040
Anyone talk about Underhill?

1190
01:57:53,040 --> 01:57:59,320
Oh our Depression era gangsters.

1191
01:57:59,320 --> 01:58:01,120
William Underhill Jr.

1192
01:58:01,120 --> 01:58:04,680
Born on March 16th 1901.

1193
01:58:04,680 --> 01:58:11,840
And in Joplin, Missouri.

1194
01:58:11,840 --> 01:58:16,480
And died at the age of 32.

1195
01:58:16,480 --> 01:58:20,640
And is the and we get to talk about Jay Eger again.

1196
01:58:20,640 --> 01:58:27,680
He basically is the reason that the FBI instituted field offices.

1197
01:58:27,680 --> 01:58:41,120
What is your there's a couple of key quotes that really jumped out to me about Underhill.

1198
01:58:41,120 --> 01:58:53,280
That the one that he began to show a certain amount of interesting behavior that his mother

1199
01:58:53,280 --> 01:58:58,240
said was the result of a childhood accident that quote didn't leave him quite right.

1200
01:58:58,240 --> 01:59:02,440
Well it made me kind of think of Jody Hamilton.

1201
01:59:02,440 --> 01:59:03,440
Yeah.

1202
01:59:03,440 --> 01:59:05,440
In Texas County.

1203
01:59:05,440 --> 01:59:11,560
He was kicked in the head by a mule as a kid.

1204
01:59:11,560 --> 01:59:17,520
It does make you wonder if perhaps maybe he did have a closed hit injury.

1205
01:59:17,520 --> 01:59:27,600
Because I mean there were violent criminals in that time period.

1206
01:59:27,600 --> 01:59:28,600
Ruthless.

1207
01:59:28,600 --> 01:59:29,600
Cold.

1208
01:59:29,600 --> 01:59:31,600
I mean you know.

1209
01:59:31,600 --> 01:59:32,600
Dillinger.

1210
01:59:32,600 --> 01:59:33,600
Clyde Barrow.

1211
01:59:33,600 --> 01:59:34,600
Pretty Boy Floyd.

1212
01:59:34,600 --> 01:59:37,480
Et cetera.

1213
01:59:37,480 --> 01:59:46,040
And then there was Wilbur Underhill who just really just was one step beyond that in a

1214
01:59:46,040 --> 01:59:47,040
lot of ways.

1215
01:59:47,040 --> 01:59:53,160
So it does make you wonder if he didn't have a closed head injury or something that which

1216
01:59:53,160 --> 02:00:00,040
generally will modify personality and accentuate certain traits.

1217
02:00:00,040 --> 02:00:07,320
And usually ends up either being violence or being over sexualized one of the two.

1218
02:00:07,320 --> 02:00:21,680
And the descriptions of him and just how far he would go to get away et cetera made you

1219
02:00:21,680 --> 02:00:24,200
wonder.

1220
02:00:24,200 --> 02:00:32,800
And I mean there is a reason that his nickname was the Tri-State Terror.

1221
02:00:32,800 --> 02:00:41,520
And because of all of his activity in Missouri, Kansas and Oklahoma.

1222
02:00:41,520 --> 02:00:56,240
And basically he was so ruthless that they basically created an office for the FBI in

1223
02:00:56,240 --> 02:01:00,600
Oklahoma City to pursue him.

1224
02:01:00,600 --> 02:01:09,000
And I mean and I mentioned it before we started tonight.

1225
02:01:09,000 --> 02:01:18,440
But they even went as far as I think almost villainizing him even more than they had to

1226
02:01:18,440 --> 02:01:26,720
if that's even possible by doing things like when they at one of his trials because he

1227
02:01:26,720 --> 02:01:33,280
was I mean he was sentenced to life imprisonment twice I believe.

1228
02:01:33,280 --> 02:01:36,800
He kept escaping.

1229
02:01:36,800 --> 02:01:49,600
But they had psychologists testifying and evaluating him based on phrenology.

1230
02:01:49,600 --> 02:02:04,640
And this is in the mid-20s when it already had pretty much been debunked as invalid.

1231
02:02:04,640 --> 02:02:12,800
Phrenology for anyone who doesn't know is the quote the science of attributing character

1232
02:02:12,800 --> 02:02:16,880
traits to your physical traits.

1233
02:02:16,880 --> 02:02:17,880
Yes.

1234
02:02:17,880 --> 02:02:18,880
Yes.

1235
02:02:18,880 --> 02:02:31,840
And basically a form of eugenics which if you're curious just go Google it.

1236
02:02:31,840 --> 02:02:34,840
And go from there.

1237
02:02:34,840 --> 02:02:43,160
To a nasty trail that ends in 1930s Germany if you have any idea there.

1238
02:02:43,160 --> 02:02:48,800
And has some uniquely American cross ties.

1239
02:02:48,800 --> 02:02:53,200
Yeah it was basically well it was created and invented in America.

1240
02:02:53,200 --> 02:02:56,200
Yes it was.

1241
02:02:56,200 --> 02:03:01,680
Sometimes those things get a little close to home.

1242
02:03:01,680 --> 02:03:07,960
My introduction to phrenology actually comes from an episode of The Muppet Show.

1243
02:03:07,960 --> 02:03:10,120
I think I must have missed that one.

1244
02:03:10,120 --> 02:03:18,600
There is a very brief skit in which Fossey Bear has put together his new vaudeville moment

1245
02:03:18,600 --> 02:03:28,560
and he apprehends Kermit in the middle of the show and announces that his new talent

1246
02:03:28,560 --> 02:03:30,600
is phrenology.

1247
02:03:30,600 --> 02:03:38,880
Kermit inquires and Fossey says that it's the art of telling the future of someone by

1248
02:03:38,880 --> 02:03:51,440
feeling the bumps on their head and then proceeds to run his fuzzy bear hands over Kermit's

1249
02:03:51,440 --> 02:03:54,440
plastic eyes.

1250
02:03:54,440 --> 02:03:59,520
And Kermit runs him off the stage.

1251
02:03:59,520 --> 02:04:01,960
So just a little creepy yeah.

1252
02:04:01,960 --> 02:04:12,160
Just a snitch but I think there is a comparative point that I can't help but make in regards

1253
02:04:12,160 --> 02:04:16,480
to between Underhill and Billy Cook.

1254
02:04:16,480 --> 02:04:25,080
And the point is you know he's born in 1901 and in 1910 he's convicted of burglary and

1255
02:04:25,080 --> 02:04:31,560
he's sent to the Missouri State Penitentiary for five years beginning at the age of 17.

1256
02:04:31,560 --> 02:04:33,760
Boy that does sound familiar.

1257
02:04:33,760 --> 02:04:34,880
Doesn't it?

1258
02:04:34,880 --> 02:04:46,440
And I would at least lightly conjecture that his experience five years in the Missouri

1259
02:04:46,440 --> 02:04:53,160
State Penitentiary in Jefferson City probably had more to do with what happened afterwards

1260
02:04:53,160 --> 02:04:55,760
than phrenology.

1261
02:04:55,760 --> 02:04:58,000
That's very likely.

1262
02:04:58,000 --> 02:05:03,440
You know and the counterpoint to Billy Cook would probably support that.

1263
02:05:03,440 --> 02:05:11,360
So whatever might have not been right after the childhood accident probably was a lot

1264
02:05:11,360 --> 02:05:15,600
less right after that.

1265
02:05:15,600 --> 02:05:27,560
But it's kind of funny that or ironic that he's not as well known now as some of the

1266
02:05:27,560 --> 02:05:32,960
other criminals of the day.

1267
02:05:32,960 --> 02:05:50,520
And I think in part there never was a romanticization you know of him or his deeds where you know

1268
02:05:50,520 --> 02:05:57,200
pre-boy Floyd was seen as dashing and to be generous and this and that.

1269
02:05:57,200 --> 02:06:06,920
And of course Bonnie and Clyde and who developed that mystique and John Dillinger etc. but

1270
02:06:06,920 --> 02:06:16,200
Underhill was really just you know to be honest probably more successful as a criminal than

1271
02:06:16,200 --> 02:06:19,520
most of them.

1272
02:06:19,520 --> 02:06:21,560
I would agree.

1273
02:06:21,560 --> 02:06:25,240
You know we talked about something and this is going to sound flippant but I don't think

1274
02:06:25,240 --> 02:06:26,240
it is.

1275
02:06:26,240 --> 02:06:30,320
We talked about the fact that America loves a winner.

1276
02:06:30,320 --> 02:06:37,280
You know America loves to vicariously experience the certain traits of rugged individualism

1277
02:06:37,280 --> 02:06:40,600
and these types of things.

1278
02:06:40,600 --> 02:06:51,880
In terms of folk heroes and outlaws and celebrities America also loves very attractive people.

1279
02:06:51,880 --> 02:06:54,480
True true.

1280
02:06:54,480 --> 02:07:04,360
And I think to a large degree Bonnie and Clyde literally pretty boy Floyd, the James gang

1281
02:07:04,360 --> 02:07:11,520
etc. these were these were people that the American public enjoyed looking at.

1282
02:07:11,520 --> 02:07:12,520
I mean that's true.

1283
02:07:12,520 --> 02:07:16,160
I mean you know certainly an argument could be made that Bonnie and Clyde were not you

1284
02:07:16,160 --> 02:07:24,920
know were not as attractive but it was the rest of the story that became attractive.

1285
02:07:24,920 --> 02:07:37,640
The romance and that fatalistic romance that Americans are drawn to as well.

1286
02:07:37,640 --> 02:07:46,120
But you know certainly John Dillinger was you know movie star good looks and people

1287
02:07:46,120 --> 02:07:48,280
responded to it.

1288
02:07:48,280 --> 02:08:00,960
And you know we have the either the benefit or the perceptual liability of viewing Bonnie

1289
02:08:00,960 --> 02:08:05,760
and Clyde through the lens of Faye Dunaway and Warren Beatty.

1290
02:08:05,760 --> 02:08:17,960
Yes and so as people after the movie started looking at the story it's filtered through

1291
02:08:17,960 --> 02:08:18,960
that yes.

1292
02:08:18,960 --> 02:08:28,520
It is but something that I think that you mentioned that is incredibly powerful is the

1293
02:08:28,520 --> 02:08:39,640
romanticized aspect of their love their romantic experience while on the run.

1294
02:08:39,640 --> 02:08:46,240
Yes and that's something that made that more of a unique story.

1295
02:08:46,240 --> 02:08:52,760
Where some of the other gangsters they certainly had love interests or wives or whatever.

1296
02:08:52,760 --> 02:08:57,360
It wasn't quite the same as both being on the run that way and then of course you know

1297
02:08:57,360 --> 02:09:00,880
Bonnie was married to another man at the whole time etc.

1298
02:09:00,880 --> 02:09:11,560
So it's that that forbidden fruit aspect etc. that people are intrigued by.

1299
02:09:11,560 --> 02:09:18,520
It's very salacious and it sells newspapers and it gets people talking and of course it

1300
02:09:18,520 --> 02:09:27,280
was Wilbur Underhill's desperate attempt to successfully honeymoon that ended up getting

1301
02:09:27,280 --> 02:09:29,480
him killed.

1302
02:09:29,480 --> 02:09:35,640
That's true that is ironic you know that is ironic that that aspect could have made it

1303
02:09:35,640 --> 02:09:40,040
more of that romanization but it did ultimately it didn't.

1304
02:09:40,040 --> 02:09:49,960
He was on his honeymoon when he was found and ultimately shot and killed.

1305
02:09:49,960 --> 02:09:56,120
I know I mean he was shot five times and ran another 16 blocks.

1306
02:09:56,120 --> 02:09:57,440
That's adrenaline.

1307
02:09:57,440 --> 02:10:07,560
Yes before breaking into a furniture store and collapsing on one of their beds.

1308
02:10:07,560 --> 02:10:17,200
But I do think that the tenor that I get is that I think people were were so afraid of

1309
02:10:17,200 --> 02:10:27,640
him at this point that they just decided that boy it's just better that he's gone you know

1310
02:10:27,640 --> 02:10:31,440
no matter what all the circumstances.

1311
02:10:31,440 --> 02:10:41,600
And you see that like various figures various characters in some cases the exploits begin

1312
02:10:41,600 --> 02:10:50,680
to resonate and others it is just we wanted to end.

1313
02:10:50,680 --> 02:10:54,400
We just want to we want the person out of commission.

1314
02:10:54,400 --> 02:10:58,680
We don't care whether it's prison or grave we just need this to stop.

1315
02:10:58,680 --> 02:11:05,840
And you know I think you know draw just a comparison back to here in Taney County but

1316
02:11:05,840 --> 02:11:12,080
the secrecy and then the romanticization that we see with the bald numbers as opposed to

1317
02:11:12,080 --> 02:11:18,440
out bowling where the county just celebrated that he was dead.

1318
02:11:18,440 --> 02:11:28,720
Yes and I think I think I think there was that aspect to it I really do.

1319
02:11:28,720 --> 02:11:40,880
And I am I'm also needed to have the benefit of it but I also had reference for a book

1320
02:11:40,880 --> 02:11:49,240
by Artie Morgan the Tri-State Tear of the Life and Crimes of Wilbur Underhill and it's

1321
02:11:49,240 --> 02:11:56,440
interesting point talking about just that is that he was one of the murders he was tried

1322
02:11:56,440 --> 02:12:13,760
for actually was in Ottawa County Oklahoma Miami and the prosecutor just openly stated

1323
02:12:13,760 --> 02:12:24,160
that he killed he killed a man in a robbery and that he just openly say that he intended

1324
02:12:24,160 --> 02:12:31,480
on plenty placing under hills ass in old Sparky the name for the Oklahoma's electric chair

1325
02:12:31,480 --> 02:12:36,440
come hell or high water.

1326
02:12:36,440 --> 02:12:42,680
Which is not a statement that you would hear today.

1327
02:12:42,680 --> 02:12:48,040
I can appreciate it though I just I do want to I would do want to briefly interject how

1328
02:12:48,040 --> 02:12:53,920
much I appreciate the fact that you just casually do have a book on this subject.

1329
02:12:53,920 --> 02:13:05,360
My my my life varies a little bit but an interesting point in this is during the trial and this

1330
02:13:05,360 --> 02:13:15,520
may have a trip you know contributed to prosecutors demeanor in making this statement that while

1331
02:13:15,520 --> 02:13:26,280
the trial was going on at key points multiple times that Wilbur Underhill's mother would

1332
02:13:26,280 --> 02:13:39,960
feign a an attack and flop out for sure to disrupt the proceedings.

1333
02:13:39,960 --> 02:13:47,800
You do what you got to do I I found an interesting aspect of this under hills fiance Hazel Jared

1334
02:13:47,800 --> 02:13:55,300
Hudson was a sister of the outlaw Jared Brothers and as a part of the wedding present for Hazel

1335
02:13:55,300 --> 02:14:01,880
Underhill and several others Rob the bank in Frankfort Kentucky.

1336
02:14:01,880 --> 02:14:04,880
Well you know.

1337
02:14:04,880 --> 02:14:05,880
As you do.

1338
02:14:05,880 --> 02:14:15,680
You know it's got to show his girl how he really feels.

1339
02:14:15,680 --> 02:14:22,240
Somehow I just did not come off as romantic as Bonnie and Clyde.

1340
02:14:22,240 --> 02:14:25,120
Although they apparently were trying really hard.

1341
02:14:25,120 --> 02:14:26,120
Yes.

1342
02:14:26,120 --> 02:14:32,120
Maybe maybe they were trying too hard I'm not sure.

1343
02:14:32,120 --> 02:14:36,440
That may be that may be the case.

1344
02:14:36,440 --> 02:14:46,200
But it is interesting because you have I mean the the the the story of under hills life

1345
02:14:46,200 --> 02:14:54,160
is as intricate and compelling as any of these others.

1346
02:14:54,160 --> 02:15:01,480
And the fact that it is it's very interesting how capricious and arbitrary it is of what

1347
02:15:01,480 --> 02:15:06,440
we end up selecting as a as a society to remember it not.

1348
02:15:06,440 --> 02:15:13,520
It is it is and sometimes it makes sense sometimes it doesn't sometimes it's just as you mentioned

1349
02:15:13,520 --> 02:15:17,360
it is extremely capricious in terms of who gets remembered as spoke Europe.

1350
02:15:17,360 --> 02:15:26,000
I think with with the James gang I think with the particularly James gang additionally the

1351
02:15:26,000 --> 02:15:33,560
the Dalton brothers there there are elements in their story that really contribute the

1352
02:15:33,560 --> 02:15:39,800
the key building blocks to logically supporting their ethos.

1353
02:15:39,800 --> 02:15:44,680
But then other cases it's anybody's guess.

1354
02:15:44,680 --> 02:15:46,960
That's true I mean it's you know.

1355
02:15:46,960 --> 02:15:57,400
It's kind of you know it anyone's guess and but I do want to mention it's kind of interesting

1356
02:15:57,400 --> 02:16:09,520
that under hill he also his his partner through a lot of his crimes at least until until about

1357
02:16:09,520 --> 02:16:15,280
the last year of his life because his partner ended up in prison was Harvey Bailey.

1358
02:16:15,280 --> 02:16:18,760
Yes Harvey Bailey is kind of interesting.

1359
02:16:18,760 --> 02:16:20,760
He is.

1360
02:16:20,760 --> 02:16:30,200
Boy striking takeaway is that he closely resembles Mr. Drysdale from Beverly Hills.

1361
02:16:30,200 --> 02:16:38,640
He did you know I never thought about it but he he does look a lot like.

1362
02:16:38,640 --> 02:16:47,520
And and Harvey he originally was I think from West Virginia but he ended up in Missouri

1363
02:16:47,520 --> 02:16:55,760
and Oklahoma during this time period and he and under Hill worked together and had a gang

1364
02:16:55,760 --> 02:17:06,680
and I think it's fair to say that Harvey probably was the brains of the operation but he ended

1365
02:17:06,680 --> 02:17:13,080
up going to prison and going to Alcatraz.

1366
02:17:13,080 --> 02:17:23,400
He was one of the first prisoners at Alcatraz and was there for a number of years and it

1367
02:17:23,400 --> 02:17:32,240
seems that after Harvey went to prison things kind of started unraveling a bit for under

1368
02:17:32,240 --> 02:17:33,560
Hill.

1369
02:17:33,560 --> 02:17:45,840
But it is kind of interesting too that and again it's the interconnectedness that at

1370
02:17:45,840 --> 02:17:53,640
one point Harvey Bailey was holed up on a ranch the same time that machine gun Kelly

1371
02:17:53,640 --> 02:18:02,080
had kidnapped a million oilmen millionaire Urschel for ransom but they were on the same

1372
02:18:02,080 --> 02:18:11,000
ranch and didn't know each other was there and Bailey was not involved ironically.

1373
02:18:11,000 --> 02:18:17,280
And another thing is that Bailey in under Hill at one point were suspected of being

1374
02:18:17,280 --> 02:18:25,800
involved in the Kansas City massacre and part and partly I think because Bailey was frequent

1375
02:18:25,800 --> 02:18:37,680
in Joplin a lot and the massacre was planned in Joplin by Defy Farmer who had a large safe

1376
02:18:37,680 --> 02:18:41,560
house here for gangsters.

1377
02:18:41,560 --> 02:18:54,120
Ironically Farmer tried to once his connection came out he tried to frame Mara Barker and

1378
02:18:54,120 --> 02:18:56,360
her boys for being involved.

1379
02:18:56,360 --> 02:19:04,520
He grew up with Mara Barker ironically in Webb City Missouri and that didn't work and

1380
02:19:04,520 --> 02:19:12,760
then for a while they suspected that Harvey and Underwood were involved but they weren't

1381
02:19:12,760 --> 02:19:25,560
and Farmer ended up in Alcatraz also actually a little before Bailey for his involvement

1382
02:19:25,560 --> 02:19:34,480
and then ironically years later after Defy Farmer dies Harvey Bailey marries his widow

1383
02:19:34,480 --> 02:19:41,240
and they both lived in Joplin until they died in the 70s and 80s.

1384
02:19:41,240 --> 02:19:50,760
Which is rapidly getting us into that space of we throw around the term modern era but

1385
02:19:50,760 --> 02:20:01,760
I mean this is getting closer to touch basically in terms of.

1386
02:20:01,760 --> 02:20:09,600
Whereas Under Hill was the tri-state terror his partner Harvey Bailey was the Dean of

1387
02:20:09,600 --> 02:20:15,120
American bank robbers that was what he was known as and he was also the most successful

1388
02:20:15,120 --> 02:20:25,240
he got away with over a million dollars during the 20s and early 30s which would equate to

1389
02:20:25,240 --> 02:20:34,080
four or five million now and but he lived a long life after he got out of prison.

1390
02:20:34,080 --> 02:20:44,560
Yeah h-91 which is impressive all the way around.

1391
02:20:44,560 --> 02:20:52,160
It really it really is it really is so it does kind of it's almost it made you wonder

1392
02:20:52,160 --> 02:20:58,760
in a little different aspect but the dichotomy between their personalities reminds me of

1393
02:20:58,760 --> 02:21:00,640
Jesse and Frank James.

1394
02:21:00,640 --> 02:21:07,200
That's a really good point I can really appreciate that observation.

1395
02:21:07,200 --> 02:21:16,280
You know and I think Harvey and Frank both seem to be moderating forces and when they

1396
02:21:16,280 --> 02:21:22,480
were removed from the situation that's when things went downhill for the other ones.

1397
02:21:22,480 --> 02:21:28,200
And I think we see something similar in regards to Quantrell and then the men around him.

1398
02:21:28,200 --> 02:21:32,000
Yes very much so.

1399
02:21:32,000 --> 02:21:36,000
That's agree.

1400
02:21:36,000 --> 02:21:39,160
That's we have covered a lot.

1401
02:21:39,160 --> 02:21:44,920
We have and there's still there's a lot more that can be covered on the subject which

1402
02:21:44,920 --> 02:21:47,960
I'm sure we'll revisit at some point.

1403
02:21:47,960 --> 02:21:49,960
Yes absolutely.

1404
02:21:49,960 --> 02:21:58,720
But that may be a good place to wind up and we want to remind everyone not to forget to

1405
02:21:58,720 --> 02:22:04,720
check out upcoming events merchandise at DarkosArts.com and ParanormalScienceLab.com.

1406
02:22:04,720 --> 02:22:08,840
Thank you again to Always Buying Books and Beard Engine Brewing Company for helping to

1407
02:22:08,840 --> 02:22:11,680
bring the Darkos Arts to everyone.

1408
02:22:11,680 --> 02:22:17,160
On the next episode we are going to be discussing healing plants, witchcraft, and shamanism.

1409
02:22:17,160 --> 02:22:23,320
Catch the Darkos Arts podcast on Branson Podcast Network, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music,

1410
02:22:23,320 --> 02:22:28,440
Google Podcasts, Substack, or just about any other podcast platform.

1411
02:22:28,440 --> 02:22:48,480
Thank you everyone and remember there are no easy answers in the Darkos Arts.