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Hey everybody, this is Joshua Heston.

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And I'm Lisa Martin.

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And this is the Dark Ozarks on the Branson Podcast Network.

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We're an exploration of everything that's dark in history, mysteries, the paranormal,

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and everything else.

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We explore the noir, the unknown, cryptozoology, UFOs, paranormal, and all the dark stuff that

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happens in the Ozarks.

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You can find Dark Ozarks on Branson Podcast Network on Facebook under Dark Ozarks, as

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well as our YouTube channel, Dark Ozarks.

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We'll leave no stone unturned to bring you the dark history, mysteries, and legends of

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the Ozarks.

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Welcome to the Dark Ozarks.

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There's monsters from the British Isles to the Ozarks.

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Monsters from the Celtic past are roaming around the 21st century.

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We will get back to that in a minute.

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But first we want to remind you that the Dark Ozarks podcast is now available on Branson

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Podcast Network, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, Google Podcasts, Substack, or

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about any other podcast platform.

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So what monsters would the Celts recognize in today's Ozarks?

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I think it's fair to say that there are so many that the Celts would recognize a number

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of them, or certainly forms of them.

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And as we were doing our research a week and a half ago, of course, last week's episode,

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we realized there's so many monsters and beasties to consider that this makes part two of our

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material.

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So from old gods to mischievous supernatural beasts to monsters of a more mortal kind,

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there's a lot to cover and more than a few familiar faces here in the Ozarks.

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And of course, that does include the Ozarks howler.

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We will return to what might be hiding in the dark or lurking under your bed.

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But first, we want to invite you to like, follow, and subscribe to Dark Ozarks on Facebook,

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Instagram, YouTube, Substack, as well as your favorite podcast platforms.

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We also invite you to become a Dark Ozarks subscriber on Facebook.

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On the Dark Ozarks Facebook page, click subscribe, have your login information ready, and join

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Dark Ozarks behind the scenes for only $4.99 per month.

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Your $4.99 per month subscription allows you to come with us on paranormal investigations,

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deep dive research, and topics too controversial for public view.

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The next 100 subscribers will be entered in a drawing for a free Dark Ozarks t-shirt and

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an exclusive signed first run copy of the book Dark Ozarks, The Spook Light.

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Subscribe today to be entered in the drawing.

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And now you can get Dark Ozarks t-shirts for sale at darkozarks.com and paranormalsciencelab.com.

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We encourage you to check out Always Buying Books in Joplin, Missouri in person and online

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on Facebook and at the website alwaysbuyingbooks.com for all of your reading needs, including a

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large section on the paranormal, history, and more.

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Not to mention, the building is haunted.

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Tell Bob and Elise that we sent you.

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We also want to thank Beard Engine Brewing Company in Alba, Missouri.

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Beard Engine Brewing is the only English-style brewery in Missouri and has been twice named

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Missouri's best brewery by the Missouri Brewers Association.

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Great beer, great food, in a historical building with a noir past.

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And yes, their building is also haunted.

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Tell Nate and Tiff that we sent you.

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So we are back to monsters in the Ozarks.

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And you really cannot contextualize monsters in the Ozarks without dealing with monsters

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in Appalachia and monsters in the British Isles.

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That's true.

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They're sort of a straight line over time between the three places for immigration as

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well as the beasties, whether they be of the mythical or the mortal kind.

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Or a combination of the two.

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I think that's a weird moment of intersection.

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Well, and that really kind of goes back to where the word monster comes from.

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It has a different meaning generally today than it did originally.

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It originated in the 1300s in the British Isles, actually.

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But it meant an unnatural event or being.

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So when we think of monsters as being a large animal or even a monstrous storm of a natural

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kind, that is a more modern conception than what originally a monster was.

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It is.

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And what I would invite people to do and to consider is just how the shift of words changes

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our perception and explains or contextualizes the world around us a little bit differently.

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We have grown up with a very, I would say, strictly compartmentalized definition of the

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word monster.

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That's even dating ourselves into this mindset of Scooby Doo, which I love.

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But Zoix is a monster.

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It simply is a thing.

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And of course, the monster gets unmasked.

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And we find out that it's Mr. Sneedle, the banker.

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But I really like coming back to this Middle English definition of a portent, an unnatural

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event or a being that is associated with the portent or the unnatural event.

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And for some of us, I think probably more of us than a popular culture gets prudence

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to.

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Some of us have had these experiences in which we realize that we are within proximity of

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something unnatural.

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True.

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Often in today's society, there's been a reaction of trying to explain that away or it has to

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be something natural.

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But certainly a lot of people have had those kind of experiences.

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In fact, we had one come to us, an event we were at this weekend, about encountering a

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canine type of monster that was viewed as much larger than any even wolf or anything

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else that left the impression that it was aware of them and that it was not an ordinary

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animal.

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And I mean, that fits into a lot of the lore in the region, whether it's phantom dogs,

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booger dogs, or almost a shapeshifter or one that we're going to talk about tonight is

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the snarly yow.

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It is.

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And what I really just encourage listeners to think about as we delve into so many of

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these beasts, this compendium, that a commonality for many of them, not all, but a commonality

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for many, is that sense for those who have experienced it, that sense in the back of

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your mind, this resonance that what you are encountering or what has been encountered

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is outside of normal.

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Yes.

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And normal being a corporeal world where things work as we can gauge and measure and anticipate

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and suddenly something happens and it might be a physical manifestation of the being,

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it might be something physical, it might be phantom-like, but something that so many people

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walk away from these experiences saying is it was just, it was, and sometimes the word

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is wrong.

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There was something about it that was wrong.

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There was something about it that was weird.

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I love the reference used by Shakespeare, the weird sisters.

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There's something about them that is, if you're a Star Trek fan, you would call it interdimensional.

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It's the idea that it is vastly and genuinely other.

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Yes.

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Something of the other is probably a really good way of putting it, that all of those

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things kind of fall into that basket.

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In that sense, it really, the idea is continuous with the original meaning of what a monster

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was.

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It is.

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And that for those who've encountered and then walk away from it, that they are left

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with a very strong sense of being deeply unsettled.

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Yes.

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Or a changed type of awareness or worldview.

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Of course, you can't talk about these type of experiences and we'll get to this first

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beastie here in just a second, but these type of experiences, I would say it's fair that

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it is difficult for the human psyche or the rational conscious mind to fully understand

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is something that oftentimes what is behind our conscious mind recognizes and reacts to

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the environment, whereas our conscious mind is just trying to keep up.

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Exactly.

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And something that I think, and this is not to weigh in on one side or other of the quote

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unquote alien debate, but that there's a strong similarity, individuals experiencing something

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that is quote unquote wrong and not able to be understood oftentimes gets lumped into

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alien sightings, whereas years ago it would have been perhaps the fey or something else.

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Very true.

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Very true.

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But again, just on their own terms as alien sightings and the experience, it still fits

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into that same definition.

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It does.

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So the starly owl is actually from Appalachia and bears some interesting comparisons, some

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direct ties with beasties here in the Ozarks, as well as beasties in the old world, specifically

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the British Isles.

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Yes.

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If you go back to the Isles, you have all kinds of canine beasts, the black hounds and

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then phantom booger dogs and various sorts that those tales all came to the New World

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with settlers.

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And the starly owl actually goes back to colonial times back east.

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And to be honest, I think it's kind of a continuation of the old tales, but garnered this new name.

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And I think starly owl really came from the fact that when it's encountered, it tends

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to snarl at you and have large fangs and interestingly, a red mouth.

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Correct.

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And it is an interesting one to start with in terms of our compendium, because it is

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both physical and non-physical simultaneously.

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It appears and gives every indication that it is physical when it is manifested and then

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it vanishes.

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Yes.

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And sometimes without a seeming reason, it seems to appear to kind of terrorize the witnesses

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and then just disappear, which almost has a bit of a trickster aspect to it as well.

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But it is described as a massive four-legged beast that for all intents and purposes, appears

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rather canine.

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Now, it tends to...

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It would...

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Oh, and it is spirit in the essence that when it's shot at, bullets pass through it.

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Right.

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Which is interesting.

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It's something that came to my mind just in terms of a couple of things.

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One, it appears to manifest and dissipate of its own will.

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It appears to target randomly.

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In this case, it could exist as a death element, but it doesn't specifically appear to exist

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as a death element.

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No, it seems more like just to cause havoc.

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Traditionally, it would appear and scare horses so that they would throw the riders off and

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then it would disappear.

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It didn't attack the riders.

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And my more suspicious nature in terms of someone being targeted but snarling out and

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then saying, I don't know why this happened, the possibility that they might actually have

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done something to cause this and they might actually know what that is, but it might be

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something that they don't want to talk about.

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That's true.

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Almost a bit of karma in action.

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It's something to consider.

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That's pure conjecture.

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But in terms of a cross tie to the Ozarks, the snarly owl does have a lot of comparisons,

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obviously, with what we call a booger dog.

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Black phantom dogs of enormous size and fearsome presence.

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Interestingly, and a little bit separate from the snarly owl, booger dogs are traditionally

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death omens here in the Ozarks.

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The snarly owl does not appear to be a death omens.

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And you can also trace, as you mentioned, all of this black hound or black beast lore

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in a pretty direct line back to the British Isles.

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The one that is particularly for me is going straight back to Scotland, which is the kushi,

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the phantom dog.

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Yeah.

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And I think that's likely what probably, especially in colonial times, it was compared to or reminiscent

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of for settlers.

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I do like the fact that the snarly owl is keeping up with the times and it will now

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chase cars.

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Yeah.

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As dogs do.

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As dogs do.

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But causing accidents, causing startling the drivers, causing them to swerve and crash,

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and that it will signal around long enough to intimidate the driver before disappearing.

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Which is admittedly terrifying.

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There is an aspect, and coming over to the Scottish Highlands for just a moment with

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the kushi, the kushi is essentially a fairy dog.

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And I think that that's an interesting term because we don't typically put those two words

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together in modern American culture.

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But in terms of being monstrous, the kushi is oftentimes described as being the size

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of a small cow.

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And it comes in a variety of colors, sometimes dark green.

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And the aspect of fey, I think, is particularly of note in regards, and you could argue, or

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at least conjecture, that in terms of phantom, spectral, corporeal, non-corporeal hounds

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that we're dealing with several different manifestations, the snarly owl really does

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fit the personality of the fey.

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It does.

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I mean, it's more mischievous instead of attacking or death omen.

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And it occurred to me that one thing that will happen, even if they don't cause a car

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wreck, they'll chase cars and then just disappear.

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And this fits squarely in a report that we have out of the Rolla area of a woman driving

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down the highway and this monstrous black dog starting to chase her car and keeping

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up at highway speeds and did so for a couple of miles and then suddenly just disappeared.

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And she never saw where it went.

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Is frightening on all counts.

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Yes.

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She was definitely freaked out and said that it took her several weeks before she would

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drive that way to work again.

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And I believe that's fair.

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That is again, something that is important to understand about the fey, about the traditional

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nature of the fairies, where it's difficult to even say that word without bringing along

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a lot of 20th century and even 19th century baggage that we do not associate with the

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traditional lore.

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And so the idea that the kushi, the fairy dog, is terrifying, monstrous, a bringer of

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chaos, although not necessarily a death omen, is an interesting side to this.

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And I like it because it begins to unravel one's perception of the term fey or fairy.

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And what we're directly dealing with, so whether this is our first person or documented account

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near Rolla, whether it is some of Vance Randolph's lore with booger dogs, whether it is the Appalachian

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snarly gal or whether it's the kushi, we are looking at something that in terms of the

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lore traces its lineage to the ancient Celtic god, the Tuatha de Danann.

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And these are beings that exert an enormous amount of power when they manifest and have

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a lot of potential chaos to create when they decide to show up.

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Very much so.

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Very much so.

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And this is just a good illustration of that.

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I'm also interested, of course, in an aspect of British history, the history of the British

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Isles, that is an important tie-in because it affects Appalachian lore and it affects

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Ozarks lore is the varying quote unquote mythologies that were brought together and I feel that

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with the snarly gal and the kushi, we're looking at a decidedly Gaelic root of belief structure,

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but the Gaels, the Celts of the British Isles are not the only peoples to be bringing their

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belief structures and their ideas into the mix.

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And we have the Anglo-Saxons, the Germanic tribes, originally from Western continental

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Europe across the North Sea, from Britain bringing theirs as well as later waves of

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Vikings and of ancient Scandinavian lore.

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And what I'm conjecturing is that the Black Hound as a death omen may trace its roots

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back to our Germanic and Scandinavian lore and to the ancient gods of northern continental

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Europe separate from the ancient gods of the Celts.

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I think that fits with the ancient lore of those groups very well.

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But it just speaks to the fact that there was this mixing of cultures in the British

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Isles and then of course once over in North America even more groups being mixed in that

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you do have these themes that are more dominant.

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And I think personally that there's a reason for that, that they resonate because over

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time and we're talking hundreds of years going on, thousands of years, that they resonate

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because there are types of experiences that people have had over generations that they

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recall this and yes that's what happened, that's what I saw, that's what happened to

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me.

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And that really brings up a interesting intersection of ideas because and I have my preferences

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are a mix of all of them but one aspect of this is that there is a standard genre of

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unnatural events that we have not been able to effectively catalog.

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And so that around the world certain types of strange and difficult to document or impossible

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to currently document phenomena occurs, certain manifestations, certain things going on and

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that each original culture, each primitive culture or ancient culture that has encountered

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these things that are all very similar created their own lore to explain a singular phenomena.

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And I think that's reasonable because it does explain a certain aspect of similarity of

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lore in the sense that so many cultures around the world have a similar types of stories

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in their ancient structures and so that one is the reasonable one.

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Me not being a reasonable person also likes to jump over to the other which is that each

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indigenous people groups gathering of lore perhaps their gods and their supernatural

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entities and beings are unique to them and not dissimilar to the quantum mechanics argument

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of many worlds but rather than just many physical worlds the idea of many other worlds that

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somehow resonate and connect with certain people groups or certain people of ancestral

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lines.

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What does seem to be consistent is that certain manifestations of lore follow certain people

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groups or certain peoples of ancestral lines from one geographical location to another

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sometimes against their will and so it brings up the question for example the Scots Irish

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with their cosmology largely intact albeit framed within a hearty Calvinist Presbyterianism

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coming over to the new world quote unquote coming over to North America and setting up

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shopping in Appalachia and later the Ozarks but that certain aspects of the essentially

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the old beliefs the manifestations of the old gods still following from generation to

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generation and there is a there's an aspect to that possibility that I like because it

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is very very textured and very complex and it exists within it exists outside of time

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and space.

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I like that and maybe just me being me but I think it's almost a little bit of column

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A and a little bit of column B. I think there's aspects of both of those arguments that make

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sense to me.

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And honestly for me too I from a from a from an ancestral perspective there is a part of

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me even though some of these manifestations are frightening for us oftentimes as mere

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mortals there is something to me that is very comforting and structural but unique to many

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individuals the idea that that these things follow it reminds me of a and it's a funny

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story it's not it's not meant to be fully taken seriously but as with many folktales

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I think there's a lesson thereof and it deals with the Scottish Boggart the old Scottish

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name for what we now would call a poltergeist and the Boggart is deeply mischievous and

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is haunting this poor family passing about pots and pans breaking things in the kitchen

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constantly raising a ruckus and they finally have had it they finally the Scottish father

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farmer has had it up here he says that's it we're moving we're leaving the house I'm not

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going to deal with a haunted house anymore we're done packs up all their stuff moves

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to the opposing side of the valley they've packed up all of their their pots and pans

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and all of their belongings and shove them in the wagon they go to the other side of

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the mountain valley to move into a cabin there and just as they arrive and they get ready

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to unpack things the voice of the boggart comes from one of the the big jars that they

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had pulled out of the kitchen and the voice says why did we move

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I think that is apropos and in a bit of how this does function in reality almost to the

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point that people are not conscious of these things coming with them through time and through

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family lines etc but why some of this resonates and it might not resonate with with someone

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that doesn't have the same background right and along with this I think something that

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is important to consider is that backing up with the industrialization of the 20th century

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it's an industrialization that we've taken for granted we we love the amenities we love

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the communication of the speed at which things occur we are we are so inured within the industrialization

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that we actually become nostalgic about past iterations of pop culture's marketing and

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I do that because I like save old magazines and crap and look over them and go oh wow

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that's how they did that but we do and something that we do not I believe fully take into consideration

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is that that mass marketing that mass industrialization of the 20th century stripped many of us of

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the conscious aspects of our ancestral ties yes but on a subconscious level I think it's

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still there and that's why why these experiences resonate or perhaps even why they still exist

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and still happen even which is you know certainly I find you know an interesting cosmology in

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Neil Gaiman's American Gods the idea that as the as an individual pays homage to a god

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it gains power the god gains power and is less common to pay the god weakens and certainly

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there's a there's an interesting psychological energetic manifestation concept within that

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worldview I and for the record I love Neil Gaiman's work and I love the novel American

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Gods as well as many other Gaiman's works but I personally something that resonates

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with me is that this cosmology or these many cosmologies simply exist and we experience

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varying degrees of awareness but that for example the Tuatha de Danan you know full

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disclosure this is my moment of confessional for myself I believe the Tuatha de Danan exists

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and I believe they exist in the other world whether I pay them homage or not but there

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is there are these points of intersection when we might encounter an aspect of them

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that the world around us seems to shift and and shimmer and change and depending upon

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the nature of the particular beings involved that could be a very good thing or that could

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be a very terrifying thing and we we proceed at our own risk but also that something that

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perhaps explains the popularity of the ghost hunting shows it explains perhaps explains

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the popularity of this interest in aliens and even you know just paranormal subjects

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in general including us is that we we're dealing with a mass population that perhaps in a subconscious

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level or spiritual level or a net you know slightly removed level we understand that

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there's more out there and that it's associated with our past and our ancestry but we've

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all to some degree been the cords have been cut consciously by modern society that's true

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and ironically as you were discussing that made me think it made me think that this process

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or this concern is is not even unique to modern culture if you go back to the ancient Egyptians

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their belief was that you would you would exist years your you would exist in the afterlife

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only so long as someone remembered your name and so that there is a even you know three

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five thousand years ago the idea of this continuity through time and what does it mean to continue

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or not continue as is something that has been on the minds of people for thousands of years

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in which also is why ancient Egyptian pharaohs tended to often destroy things erected by

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their predecessors or to remove their names from temples so that those other pharaohs

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wouldn't be remembered and they would essentially destroying the competition pretty much but

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it just in a sort of in a different way it's the same concern that our idea that our beliefs

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our beliefs our our gods our our beasties exist and follow us through time and generations

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and and what does it take for that to happen or not happen so I always find it interesting

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when you have a a theory or a mode of thought that has lasted that many thousands of years

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and some fashion there seems to be something to it there there are resonances within the

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the idea resonances within the cosmology and and you know and I I think that there's our

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very media-driven pop culture product driven society at this point does strip us of our

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ancestral ties it does and and then of course just the notion

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of being a melting pot and so forth tends to do that on some level as well forget that

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in that yeah and and we we definitely see that and and in in micro the Ozarks plateau

356
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is an interesting space for that because we have seen cultures come in and be drastically

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changed in in various forms and for various reasons the the one for me that is most striking

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is the considerable German immigration in the particularly in the 19th century into

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Arkansas and quote-unquote assimilation was so successful that a number of anthropologists

360
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seem to be unable to recognize the the German influences of particular mountain communities

361
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even as they continue to exist yes I found that odd as well

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it's oh go ahead I was just saying it it can be particularly helpful to approach it from

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a bit more of an embedded standpoint and a bit more of a gentle nuance and it also helps

364
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if you know what you're looking for and a clue is look for the food yes the food the

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barns the quilts I'm going to throw you a curveball okay since we we're talking about

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you know monsters and monsters of a portion of a natural nature the monster of current

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of infamy in those arts of course is the howler yes and to chagrin of many followers of the

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howler I think it's pretty clear that it's not a natural monster it's not a natural animal

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how would you surmise that Ozark howler in terms of being a monster and being a monster

370
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well it has its own fan fiction and its own fan art it it does the the howler existed

371
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as is its own fearsome critter back in the day for a variety of reasons but the lore

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associated with the original Ozark howler is comparatively limited and stable and has

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been somewhat domesticated just within the structure of the legend you know the the legend

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itself is is pretty compartmentalized as as what it was as what it said it was and as

375
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far as what it was used for it was used I believe from what I can tell for doing two

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things one telling original stories that would cause a shiver to run up your back as you

377
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were out in the wilds of the Ozarks in Missouri and Arkansas being delicious deliciously creepy

378
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to tell around the campfire and also as a bit of a cautionary tale just to remind us

379
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that there certainly in the early era of of pioneer settlement that there were large predatory

380
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animals that were quite dangerous particularly nocturnal ones and that there was these unknown

381
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dangers that simply existed and you needed to be on the on the lookout for them that

382
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is a reality where the Ozark howler then became more of a folk motif is when our original

383
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Ozarks families of settlement began to interact with tourism predominantly brought in by

384
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local our regional tourism in the 1920s and 30s things like the land of a million smiles

385
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marketing campaigns and then extending into the white river country marketing campaigns

386
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a table rock lake marketing etc and bringing a unique conflict as a cultural conflict between

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your urban development people your suburban landowners and the traditional people who

388
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have been in the hills for generations so we see that and what we see is very traditional

389
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Ozarkers telling wild stories to see if they can fool the outsiders into believing them

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and in these cases we see the the howler grow in proportion it becomes the size of a bear

391
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it starts to have horns it has gigantic fangs or maybe tusks its eyes glow red it does impossible

392
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things not unlike the snob us and and it starts taking on these qualities but it up until

393
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recently up until the internet the Ozark howler existed in that same category as say a jackalope

394
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you go out on the prairie and hear the stories of the half jackrabbit half antelope sometimes

395
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with wings those types of things and it's not that far removed from bathe the blue ox

396
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it's not that far removed from just this Americana folklore that has a larger story to tell in

397
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terms of early American settlement and coming into untamed spaces and finding new challenges

398
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and creating a unique Americana folklore that is that has resonance with the old world but

399
00:46:04,520 --> 00:46:15,160
is also decidedly and uniquely North American and it and and and I think you know Paul Bunyan

400
00:46:15,160 --> 00:46:19,840
and you know and babe the blue ox and these kind of stories from the north woods from

401
00:46:19,840 --> 00:46:27,240
the Minnesota region etc. is powerful because it creates it begins to create a folklore

402
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that's established in a sense of place and this is this is establishing a sense of place

403
00:46:33,480 --> 00:46:43,840
that not very long far beforehand was untamed space was a territory in which no one was

404
00:46:43,840 --> 00:46:50,200
in suddenly the space has its own lore its own new ideas that are connected with the

405
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past that are connected with the land that are creating a sense of idea and a sense of

406
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space and a sense of this is from whence we came and and and you see that with with Paul

407
00:47:02,400 --> 00:47:12,480
Bunyan in the association with the north woods logging and I think with the howler you see

408
00:47:12,480 --> 00:47:21,880
that association of place with Ozarks hillbillies with the you know the tall tails in the rugged

409
00:47:21,880 --> 00:47:30,600
mountains of the of the upland south these kind of things and so the howler traditionally

410
00:47:30,600 --> 00:47:39,000
existed within that fabric and the and thanks to the internet a handful of people plucked

411
00:47:39,000 --> 00:47:47,080
it from its fabric nest its cultural tapestry pulled it out and then expanded it into something

412
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entirely larger and more grotesque in the sense that it then began to get individuals

413
00:47:56,080 --> 00:48:02,960
creating its own fan art its own cyber art online and it grows in proportion its hair

414
00:48:02,960 --> 00:48:11,320
gets longer its eyes become more red its horns become more dramatic it it becomes terrifying

415
00:48:11,320 --> 00:48:21,160
it becomes troubling and it starts stalking people etc it becomes drastically more dramatic

416
00:48:21,160 --> 00:48:36,000
because it has been pulled out of just as a just as I think real life flora and fauna

417
00:48:36,000 --> 00:48:42,440
keeps itself in balance within an ecosystem you pull one of them out and you know give

418
00:48:42,440 --> 00:48:50,200
it lots of unnatural hormones and it could grow into something scary you know or you

419
00:48:50,200 --> 00:48:55,120
know basically a monoculture and that you know you feed it in water and give it all

420
00:48:55,120 --> 00:49:04,240
sorts of love and attention and it might take over the lab in the the the the tapestry of

421
00:49:04,240 --> 00:49:11,640
lore the same thing I think is potential is potentially possible with our folkloric beast

422
00:49:11,640 --> 00:49:17,880
you remove one from its contextualized tapestry around it that keeps it in balance because

423
00:49:17,880 --> 00:49:30,960
you if you you know the the the the howlers contextual cousins the jimplicute a gigantic

424
00:49:30,960 --> 00:49:42,080
ghost dinosaur the snoffus a a white great white deer that has dogwood blossoms growing

425
00:49:42,080 --> 00:49:47,800
out of its antlers and it flies to the treetops and makes sneezing noises the side hill hoof

426
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or which is part antelope but its legs are shorter on one side of its body than the other

427
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so if you get it on the flat line it tips over these um folkloric cousins kept the howler

428
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contextualized and when it gets pulled out by itself it takes on a life of its own and

429
00:50:10,600 --> 00:50:19,920
before long people begin associating it and and inflating it into something that it realistically

430
00:50:19,920 --> 00:50:31,000
is likely not which is for example the physical spiritual corporeal bay manifestation

431
00:50:31,000 --> 00:50:43,320
I I agree I agree with you in large part I I find it interesting that um in a lot of

432
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cases with quote monsters they back you know in the aeons of time started out as quote

433
00:50:54,600 --> 00:51:02,040
you know I wrote monsters something of an unnatural nature um and then over time people

434
00:51:02,040 --> 00:51:07,880
try to explain them in a natural way I think with those are howler it's flipped because

435
00:51:07,880 --> 00:51:16,160
originally the tails you had the tall tail aspect but it came out a very real physical

436
00:51:16,160 --> 00:51:28,720
animals mainly bears large cats etc that that's where the stories came from and now as you

437
00:51:28,720 --> 00:51:35,640
said in the internet age it has morphed into something that when you just look at the current

438
00:51:35,640 --> 00:51:44,440
incarnation of the lore would appear more of that uh traditional monster definition

439
00:51:44,440 --> 00:51:56,120
of something that's unnatural it's that or flip it on its head the sort of the renderings

440
00:51:56,120 --> 00:52:06,680
that are coming out about the howler currently have a definite big foot quality to them and

441
00:52:06,680 --> 00:52:13,800
that is that is a really interesting intersection because big foot lore goes back in the Ozarks

442
00:52:13,800 --> 00:52:23,200
pretty much forever well those are wild man you know goes back at least to the 1830s um

443
00:52:23,200 --> 00:52:33,120
even with um notions that original you know that um the first sightings in the early 1800s

444
00:52:33,120 --> 00:52:44,920
in northeast Arkansas were feral feral people who had left the new Madrid area after the

445
00:52:44,920 --> 00:52:57,760
earthquakes and then over time have turned into big foot uh lore aside from other unique

446
00:52:57,760 --> 00:53:10,760
big foot lore like the blue band and Momo and the fout monster and I do find it interesting

447
00:53:10,760 --> 00:53:18,880
that as as the the monstrous quality of the howler is growing it's taking on connotations

448
00:53:18,880 --> 00:53:29,600
visually as it's depicted that most people especially if you were not as aware of quote

449
00:53:29,600 --> 00:53:34,560
the howler you you look at the renderings and you say oh that's some sort of mid-foot

450
00:53:34,560 --> 00:53:45,840
type creature that one is just to me is a fascinating uh conceptual shift that we see

451
00:53:45,840 --> 00:53:53,000
because in its in its original state and the howler was a large fearsome beast that was

452
00:53:53,000 --> 00:54:01,040
in the mountains that howled or howled honestly um is strongly associated with being a big

453
00:54:01,040 --> 00:54:12,600
cat and and as you noted it has in pop culture it has begun this morphing process uh it's

454
00:54:12,600 --> 00:54:20,320
transmogrifying into the big red monster with uh with sneakers on from bugs bunny

455
00:54:20,320 --> 00:54:32,760
well in some in some versions a little a little more vicious version of a monster

456
00:54:32,760 --> 00:54:39,040
I will love him and hug him and squeeze him and give him joy it uh I I love lindy tunes

457
00:54:39,040 --> 00:54:50,040
for anyone listening but but yes and it is it for me it's a weird juxtaposition because

458
00:54:50,040 --> 00:55:02,120
I initially never contemplated that anyone would actually take the howler seriously that

459
00:55:02,120 --> 00:55:10,320
is my point of fascination and mixed with consternation uh because I really never thought

460
00:55:10,320 --> 00:55:18,320
uh from from studying the lore that anyone would take that seriously there are uh physical

461
00:55:18,320 --> 00:55:24,600
cryptids that I do take seriously um and the many aspects of big foot is something I do

462
00:55:24,600 --> 00:55:32,840
take very seriously same too many uh too many first person reports uh to not say that there

463
00:55:32,840 --> 00:55:40,040
is something very solid in terms of an unknown uh physical manifestation going on there are

464
00:55:40,040 --> 00:55:45,040
many aspects of the paranormal as as anyone familiar with the channel knows that we take

465
00:55:45,040 --> 00:55:51,680
very seriously I take it very seriously and uh just in terms of me associating with my

466
00:55:51,680 --> 00:56:02,200
own ancestral cosmology of the kelts the legends and the lore of the tuatha didana um are or

467
00:56:02,200 --> 00:56:08,440
something that I also take seriously I have not traditionally taken the howler seriously

468
00:56:08,440 --> 00:56:16,640
because I am seeing the howler through the lens again with its uh contextual cousins

469
00:56:16,640 --> 00:56:24,000
uh the the the jimpli koot and the snobbish come to mind a giant ghost vampiric ghost

470
00:56:24,000 --> 00:56:35,440
dinosaur and a uh and a large white deer with wings that uh has dogwood blossoms growing

471
00:56:35,440 --> 00:56:43,840
out of its antlers that's where I traditionally put the howler and then in times past not

472
00:56:43,840 --> 00:56:53,680
terribly far removed suddenly getting calls from uh uh sub assistant uh reality tv show

473
00:56:53,680 --> 00:57:04,320
producers with uh south california phone numbers asking me have I seen the howler do I know

474
00:57:04,320 --> 00:57:08,880
anyone who has seen the howler could I put them in contact with an individual who might

475
00:57:08,880 --> 00:57:13,680
have encountered a howler and it's probably a good thing that it wasn't a video call because

476
00:57:13,680 --> 00:57:17,600
I was just sitting there with a look on my face going what on earth are you talking about

477
00:57:19,680 --> 00:57:26,560
yes and then you sent them to me to answer the question I did I I feel the time to begin with

478
00:57:26,560 --> 00:57:31,760
for the record I feel that someone else to begin with then I just started sending them to you

479
00:57:34,800 --> 00:57:42,560
but I I do find it I do find it interesting that I you know uh you know in fact there's a

480
00:57:42,560 --> 00:57:48,720
billboard on highway 65 going to branson with the howler on it and for a tourist coming through

481
00:57:48,720 --> 00:57:54,000
and seeing that it's like oh okay that let's kind of like midfoot it does

482
00:57:56,240 --> 00:58:05,200
and I think too I think honestly we we do get input in our various outlets of people who seem

483
00:58:05,200 --> 00:58:15,680
to generally genuinely think that the howler is a I guess this is the Aussie moral but a legitimate

484
00:58:15,680 --> 00:58:22,720
cryptid in the Ozarks and I think it's you know it really is for people who have

485
00:58:24,080 --> 00:58:30,640
their their connection to the stories is internet only from the internet only

486
00:58:30,640 --> 00:58:40,160
yeah yes it largely its own on the internet it does and within that

487
00:58:42,560 --> 00:58:51,280
highly public but compartmentalized subgenre something that happens very quickly is that

488
00:58:51,600 --> 00:58:58,080
individuals interested in the howler can and and it's an important topic because this happens with

489
00:58:58,080 --> 00:59:08,000
lots of other things as well that it can create its own mini psychological weather pattern amongst

490
00:59:08,000 --> 00:59:17,520
those interested but for those of us on the ground those of us interacting with real people

491
00:59:18,720 --> 00:59:26,320
real living breathing face-to-face people that the howler has comparatively little impact on

492
00:59:26,320 --> 00:59:35,600
Ozarks developing lore or ancestral lore but if you get out into talking with everyday people

493
00:59:35,600 --> 00:59:40,240
particularly rural people in the mountains and you start bringing up bigfoot you start bringing up

494
00:59:40,240 --> 00:59:46,960
black panthers you start bringing up large cats in some cases you start bringing up

495
00:59:48,480 --> 00:59:55,040
you know ufos or unidentified flying objects you start bringing up paranormal

496
00:59:55,040 --> 01:00:03,600
paranormal experiences you very quickly start encountering lots of people who either had

497
01:00:03,600 --> 01:00:08,960
personal experiences with these or they know someone personally and have had a first person

498
01:00:08,960 --> 01:00:18,480
account told to them of these experiences very much so very much so and and that that is sort

499
01:00:18,480 --> 01:00:25,840
of the dichotomy with the howler is that i've yet to have to encounter encounter anyone who's had an

500
01:00:25,840 --> 01:00:35,360
experience with the howler no and and hearing a large cat or a bobcat howl is not the same as

501
01:00:35,360 --> 01:00:45,840
experiencing the cryptid the howler right but it does kind of uh dovetail into a couple of other

502
01:00:45,840 --> 01:00:54,640
interesting monster type stories out of the Ozarks one doesn't fit the traditional definition

503
01:00:55,440 --> 01:01:05,120
but is certainly interesting that there is a fairly long line of sightings of hyenas in arkansas

504
01:01:05,680 --> 01:01:13,040
in arkansas yes i'm i'm very interested in this i have not spoken personally to anyone who's seen

505
01:01:13,040 --> 01:01:24,480
a hyena but it is the classic not a cryptid but an animal out of place yes i i do also wonder if it

506
01:01:24,480 --> 01:01:33,600
does account for some uh chupacabra type sightings i was going to say that oh my gosh

507
01:01:33,600 --> 01:01:43,360
oh my gosh i was gonna say no no no it's it's good no there are no such thing there's no such

508
01:01:43,360 --> 01:01:50,720
thing as an Ozarks hyena that is ridiculous they don't exist the answer is very simple we're just

509
01:01:50,720 --> 01:02:01,760
seeing chupacabras and maybe we are maybe we're seeing both i think full just just when you thought

510
01:02:01,760 --> 01:02:10,000
it got simple um yeah so arkansas.com actually had an interesting from what i could tell more

511
01:02:10,000 --> 01:02:19,280
of to say oh look at the fun folklore and the legendary monsters but included in that was uh

512
01:02:19,280 --> 01:02:27,840
reports that were interesting in terms of they appear to be first person on the ground reports

513
01:02:27,840 --> 01:02:37,840
uh of individuals seeing a thing and the thing looks like a hyena yes and from from

514
01:02:40,160 --> 01:02:47,600
you know using deductive reasoning from from the accounts they they appear that size wise etc

515
01:02:48,320 --> 01:02:52,960
it would be in line with a hyena um and

516
01:02:52,960 --> 01:03:01,840
and except for the fact that it's in arkansas it would seem like a natural animal sight

517
01:03:03,120 --> 01:03:08,960
right right and this is something i can't help but draw some comparisons to the

518
01:03:10,560 --> 01:03:16,640
Ozarks or borderlands of the Ozarks animals out of place stories can be very interesting

519
01:03:16,640 --> 01:03:24,960
um thanks to uh sek paranormal uh one of the great groups uh southeast kansas paranormal that we have

520
01:03:24,960 --> 01:03:32,080
the opportunity to work with at times uh have collected stories of lions out of place yes

521
01:03:33,200 --> 01:03:42,000
and in multiple places yes uh and and there's a there's some very unique aspects that we can

522
01:03:42,000 --> 01:03:52,880
conjecture about that and i also can't help but tie in the uh springfield missouri cobra scare

523
01:03:54,320 --> 01:04:04,160
uh in animals out of place nobody is arguing that lions cobras or hyenas do or do not exist

524
01:04:04,960 --> 01:04:11,760
but what is deeply unsettling to individuals who've had these experiences is yes they they exist

525
01:04:11,760 --> 01:04:20,160
but they're not supposed to exist here and in this way so what the heck is up right right um

526
01:04:21,120 --> 01:04:31,760
it is certainly is an interesting interesting um example that um it is so what what do you think

527
01:04:31,760 --> 01:04:37,840
i mean we have we have a lot of different possibilities in terms of

528
01:04:37,840 --> 01:04:46,000
explanations we have the um the animal got loose from the zoo we have the animal got loose from the

529
01:04:46,000 --> 01:04:55,760
circus we have the animal got loose from an exotic animal breeder but we have the all of which tends

530
01:04:55,760 --> 01:05:02,800
to be more realistic and i believe someone in springfield actually came forward many many years

531
01:05:02,800 --> 01:05:09,760
later and says yeah i was responsible i you know i kicked the the door off of the cobra cage

532
01:05:09,760 --> 01:05:15,920
at the pet store i'm still trying to figure out why the pet store had anyone yeah that's one part

533
01:05:15,920 --> 01:05:22,240
that i'm not convinced on that that story but yeah yeah i didn't claim responsibility but

534
01:05:22,240 --> 01:05:31,440
uh the long list of things that were for the pet store how about a cobra

535
01:05:33,440 --> 01:05:39,280
several of them i nothing could possibly go wrong with that well it was earlier it was a simpler

536
01:05:39,280 --> 01:05:48,880
earlier time pet stores had cobras um not something i personally have on my top 10 wish list when i go

537
01:05:48,880 --> 01:05:58,720
to the pet store same um saw him in the window i just couldn't come home without him um i think

538
01:05:59,920 --> 01:06:12,800
but the uh you know those those reasons existing the other is the idea of a lost or hidden

539
01:06:12,800 --> 01:06:25,040
indigenous population of the animal well personally i i i don't ascribe to the relic population

540
01:06:25,600 --> 01:06:31,920
theory sometimes it sometimes it could make sense where you had an animal that may have

541
01:06:31,920 --> 01:06:38,720
survived up to a few thousand years ago i think you know maybe there could be a breeding population

542
01:06:38,720 --> 01:06:48,000
that survived in remote areas but north american hyenas died out hundreds of thousands of years ago

543
01:06:48,800 --> 01:06:58,800
like over half a million years ago so i i doubt that's the case um and for me i i doubt that they

544
01:07:00,800 --> 01:07:05,280
escaped from the circus you don't see too many hyenas and circus circuses and traveling

545
01:07:05,280 --> 01:07:14,640
circuses um could not have not found anything to indicate that were there were escaped hyenas

546
01:07:14,640 --> 01:07:22,560
zoos or whatever um that would account for this uh so my my guess is that an exotic breeder

547
01:07:23,360 --> 01:07:31,120
uh you know that they got got away however the reports are over a decade you know a number of

548
01:07:31,120 --> 01:07:41,520
decades so we're not talking about one animal or two animals this if people really saw hyenas

549
01:07:41,520 --> 01:07:48,000
at these various times over close to 50 years there had to be a breeding population which is

550
01:07:48,000 --> 01:07:57,760
even a little more far-fetched to believe but i don't know but if it's half a million

551
01:07:57,760 --> 01:08:05,040
i don't know but if it's happened my guess is that they've gotten away from exotic animal breeder

552
01:08:06,000 --> 01:08:13,280
yeah and and realistically i think that's the the the answer the other one that is fun

553
01:08:14,240 --> 01:08:21,520
that is on the opposing spectrum is the idea of some sort of portal that things are coming through

554
01:08:21,520 --> 01:08:28,560
from some place or some other time well i mean and that does kind of go along with the

555
01:08:29,360 --> 01:08:35,360
with the lion pride of lion sightings in various places that all happened at the same time

556
01:08:35,920 --> 01:08:42,160
that they were seen even going down the street or whatever and then vanish almost like it was a

557
01:08:44,000 --> 01:08:50,800
interdimensional thing or time warp or whatever uh almost as if you know they disappeared from the

558
01:08:50,800 --> 01:08:57,520
savanna and then appeared in the middle of kansas and then disappeared and so if something like

559
01:08:57,520 --> 01:09:03,120
that happened maybe maybe the hyenas came through similar time it'd be interesting to know if if

560
01:09:03,120 --> 01:09:08,560
there were any sightings of hyenas at the same time that the lions were maybe they came through

561
01:09:08,560 --> 01:09:17,360
the lions i don't know they they might have uh the the thing that i like about these type of

562
01:09:17,360 --> 01:09:23,280
conjecturings although some people may find it really unsettling or sometimes preposterous is

563
01:09:23,840 --> 01:09:30,000
that it forces the mind to accept the at least even remote possibility that things in the world

564
01:09:30,000 --> 01:09:37,040
don't work the way we expect them to all the time and that the world itself may actually be much

565
01:09:37,040 --> 01:09:46,320
vaster and much more dramatic than we are led to believe that's true we we tend to like our little

566
01:09:46,320 --> 01:09:53,680
chinese boxes and everything it fits into a pigeon hole and and these stories do remind us that

567
01:09:54,880 --> 01:10:04,160
as much as we think we control our world we may not and we may not and that is

568
01:10:06,800 --> 01:10:15,440
not necessarily a bad thing because it forces us to develop a greater awareness and it also forces

569
01:10:15,440 --> 01:10:21,760
us to approach sometimes approach life with a bit more trepidation but at least with a bit more

570
01:10:22,480 --> 01:10:30,640
sense of wonder than we've we've really been essentially indoctrinated into

571
01:10:32,320 --> 01:10:37,200
agreed now sense of wonder how about let's talk about the felt monster for a second

572
01:10:38,400 --> 01:10:42,560
i love the monster of course i've not met him personally

573
01:10:42,560 --> 01:10:48,720
but the the the felt monster

574
01:10:51,680 --> 01:10:57,280
to me is particularly fascinating we're dealing with essentially we're dealing with a big foot

575
01:10:57,280 --> 01:11:07,360
sighting pretty much now uh you know one thing that's a little different is that that supposedly

576
01:11:07,360 --> 01:11:13,600
it has three toes instead of five so some people say they can't be a primate can't be good but

577
01:11:14,480 --> 01:11:24,960
and that may mean that it's a hoax but i mean there are similar accounts of bidfoot like creatures

578
01:11:24,960 --> 01:11:33,600
with three toes further south in the swamps and the marshes and so forth so who knows

579
01:11:33,600 --> 01:11:39,840
who knows um and maybe just a large population with some sort of mutation

580
01:11:39,840 --> 01:11:47,200
you know you just want to throw something out there right i i i love the fact it

581
01:11:48,720 --> 01:11:57,840
the for me the the fat monster is actually a lot more fascinating than power same same i i agree

582
01:11:57,840 --> 01:12:04,960
and and this is something again that you know they're sightings that go back to the 1850s and then

583
01:12:06,720 --> 01:12:14,720
periodically since up until the last the last time i actually researched it i think the last

584
01:12:17,360 --> 01:12:23,280
reports that i had had verified were just like three or four years ago so

585
01:12:23,280 --> 01:12:30,320
which for for more corporeal cryptid sighting that makes sense

586
01:12:32,080 --> 01:12:39,120
the idea that that that we are so i mean the the basic conjecture is that we are we're dealing with

587
01:12:39,120 --> 01:12:56,720
um a bigfoot type um a cryptid that existing in and around boggy creek and uh in south arkansas

588
01:12:57,440 --> 01:13:04,640
which is is close to texarkana and close to the louisiana state line right it's in the borderlands

589
01:13:04,640 --> 01:13:15,680
but the same creature has been seen in other areas around there too so it's not just quite that far

590
01:13:15,680 --> 01:13:24,000
south it but around falch is where the sort of a clut the clustering of sightings are and where

591
01:13:24,000 --> 01:13:32,720
the more famous sightings are um so this could be a more wide-ranging creature just like um the blue

592
01:13:32,720 --> 01:13:46,720
man has been reported through a pretty large swath of north central arkansas and south central

593
01:13:48,000 --> 01:13:55,600
missouri so um for those friends someone's saying well falch isn't really the osiris well

594
01:13:55,600 --> 01:14:04,960
i i really i it's the it is the borderlands and the sightings and so forth are not just pinpointed

595
01:14:04,960 --> 01:14:15,200
on that dot correct and once uh you know you look at the the aspects of

596
01:14:15,200 --> 01:14:22,880
of of borderlands it's it's really important because it helps contextualize the osarks and the

597
01:14:22,880 --> 01:14:30,240
osarks also help contextualize the borderlands particularly in terms of lore and history yes

598
01:14:30,800 --> 01:14:41,440
and the two do not exist without the other and there are the on so many aspects the osarks are

599
01:14:41,440 --> 01:14:46,160
a crossroads which is in and of itself interesting from a hoodoo perspective

600
01:14:48,400 --> 01:14:55,920
one big crossroad one giant conjuring crossroads in the middle of the united states i probably am

601
01:14:55,920 --> 01:15:04,880
going to regret having said that um but it really you know that i'll take credit for it so you don't

602
01:15:04,880 --> 01:15:20,160
have to regret it the the the the the lore that is associated with thought monster is not dissimilar

603
01:15:20,720 --> 01:15:27,040
to the lore that's associated with so many of the other uh primate cryptid experiences or

604
01:15:27,040 --> 01:15:36,320
phenomena sightings that have taken place for close to 200 years in the region exactly and

605
01:15:37,360 --> 01:15:43,280
you know and one reason it you know it is tends to be a little more input infamous is because it

606
01:15:43,280 --> 01:15:54,400
was turned into a docu drama horror movie by charles pierce um yeah and um since the

607
01:15:54,400 --> 01:16:03,200
uh and um centering around probably the most famous uh encounters uh the ford family had

608
01:16:03,760 --> 01:16:17,200
with the creature in 1971 um and uh and i think one thing that's you know that is kind of interesting

609
01:16:17,200 --> 01:16:24,160
about this is that a lot of the the bidfoot encounters and tales in the ozarts region

610
01:16:24,960 --> 01:16:35,200
tend to be of a fairly reclusive creature that tries to avoid for the most part avoid contact

611
01:16:35,200 --> 01:16:41,360
with people that i mean there are some exceptions there are some early accounts of the ozark wild

612
01:16:41,360 --> 01:16:47,760
man attacking people although they were chasing him at the time and the blue man

613
01:16:50,080 --> 01:16:55,280
being aggressive towards loggers in southern missouri in the 1860s

614
01:16:58,160 --> 01:17:02,000
but from what perspective that may well have been

615
01:17:04,800 --> 01:17:06,320
as a consequence to

616
01:17:06,320 --> 01:17:14,720
them coming too close to habitat or what was perceived as aggression from the men it's hard

617
01:17:14,720 --> 01:17:24,960
to know but the fowl monster tends to overall be seem to be a little more aggressive and certainly

618
01:17:24,960 --> 01:17:33,680
more perhaps careless in attacking animals you know in the open that kind of thing

619
01:17:34,320 --> 01:17:40,960
that you don't get with a lot of the other accounts um mutilated hods etc

620
01:17:42,880 --> 01:17:50,160
and then apparently just taking offense at the ford family quite quite

621
01:17:50,160 --> 01:18:00,320
possibly and for the record i the original films i really like i do too i i love i actually love

622
01:18:00,320 --> 01:18:09,200
the cinematography and they were shot on location they they they were many many of the individuals

623
01:18:09,200 --> 01:18:16,000
who were extras in the film are are just folks who live in the region and they were very

624
01:18:16,000 --> 01:18:26,800
extras in the film are are just folks who live in the region and uh monster aside it is to me

625
01:18:26,800 --> 01:18:34,720
a really beautiful film or beautiful films just showing the region and showing the the what i

626
01:18:34,720 --> 01:18:43,120
would consider to be the very stately quality of this um of this ecosystem as a whole and

627
01:18:43,120 --> 01:18:51,680
and in an interesting uh sometimes cliche but sometimes in my opinion very positive

628
01:18:51,680 --> 01:19:02,880
uh representations of some of the the the locals i i do have to admit my introduction to um

629
01:19:03,600 --> 01:19:04,880
and the fowl monster

630
01:19:04,880 --> 01:19:15,920
monster uh actually comes from the fact that buggy creek 2 and the legend continues was featured in

631
01:19:15,920 --> 01:19:22,320
mystery science theater 3000 and is one of my all-time favorite episodes of mystery science

632
01:19:22,320 --> 01:19:31,360
theater 3000 with some of my favorite line from uh pro t robot and uh and tom servo because i'm

633
01:19:31,360 --> 01:19:38,640
a huge fan but it doesn't it doesn't change the fact that there is an enormous

634
01:19:39,920 --> 01:19:45,920
compendium of lore that is associated with with this region and i think that it is

635
01:19:47,040 --> 01:19:54,800
skeptics aside reasonable to say that there is something in the swamp that there's there does

636
01:19:54,800 --> 01:20:06,160
seem to be something in the swamp i mean and you have recurring accounts now of about about 170

637
01:20:06,160 --> 01:20:12,400
years um and so this isn't something that just happened once and did the these people make it

638
01:20:12,400 --> 01:20:21,040
up or exaggerate and it and nothing ever happened uh there were sightings after that up to the

639
01:20:21,040 --> 01:20:29,360
current time as well as going back a very long time so something seems to be going on definitely

640
01:20:30,160 --> 01:20:44,320
um and and here we did the movie um was actually um had an encounter as a child and then when

641
01:20:44,320 --> 01:20:53,120
the story about the ford family came up that's when he ended up doing the movie but part of it

642
01:20:53,120 --> 01:21:03,680
was because of his own experience um that had stayed with him which i i i find very interesting

643
01:21:04,160 --> 01:21:11,840
and your comment about the ozards being one big crossroads uh kind of makes me think one thing

644
01:21:11,840 --> 01:21:18,720
that always kind of gets me is in the movie they they show driving down highway 71 you know

645
01:21:19,920 --> 01:21:28,000
you know down in arkansas and one of the more famous reportings of the monster is

646
01:21:29,760 --> 01:21:38,080
it walking across highway 71 which is very interesting for me because you know i live

647
01:21:38,080 --> 01:21:45,520
i live a couple of miles away from highway 71 and just to think that you know it's literally the same

648
01:21:45,520 --> 01:21:56,480
road right you know that we're we're not that we're not that disconnected and disjointed um and uh

649
01:21:57,040 --> 01:22:06,400
i just find that sort of a romantic notion i guess it is and and i like it and i think it's

650
01:22:06,400 --> 01:22:20,720
and and i like it and uh yeah and we've seen um similar uh it's it's just a a moment of

651
01:22:20,720 --> 01:22:29,280
numerological uh synergy but highway 61 uh going up the mississippi in northern missouri

652
01:22:29,280 --> 01:22:36,080
uh is is also associated with the momo which is another missouri monster that's true

653
01:22:36,960 --> 01:22:46,560
uh again not dissimilar to the uh the falcon monster very true and sort of the and the and the

654
01:22:48,640 --> 01:22:51,840
and the main sightings for momo were

655
01:22:51,840 --> 01:22:57,760
not too far different in time than than the forward sightings for the fault mount monsters

656
01:22:58,720 --> 01:23:05,360
that's very true that is very true unrelated it's also within the time frame of the the piedmont

657
01:23:05,360 --> 01:23:14,080
ufos but i don't think that yeah i'm not actually tying this together at least not today no please

658
01:23:14,080 --> 01:23:20,880
we're not going there tonight i have the baseball cap i have the black baseball cap that has has

659
01:23:20,880 --> 01:23:27,200
a ufo and bigfoot on it so that's all the proof i need is a great baseball cap i will wear it for

660
01:23:27,200 --> 01:23:32,400
the next episode wonderful

661
01:23:32,400 --> 01:23:42,560
and i know you will that's the thing i know i am nothing if not predictable

662
01:23:45,120 --> 01:23:46,560
maybe

663
01:23:46,560 --> 01:24:00,480
um maybe now what beastie oh well i'm i'm always up for for the uh the compendium of celtic beastie

664
01:24:01,120 --> 01:24:11,040
and just looking for for uh frost references of things that happen in the azarks also some uh no

665
01:24:11,040 --> 01:24:21,920
full i think it's it's important to properly contextualize the lore in association with the

666
01:24:21,920 --> 01:24:28,720
osarks we've talked about how the 20th century largely robbed us of our ancestral lineage

667
01:24:28,720 --> 01:24:36,560
when it comes to folk and consequently the

668
01:24:36,560 --> 01:24:41,440
um and consequently there are

669
01:24:43,840 --> 01:24:56,320
mythological and other beasties of the british isles that may inform lore in the osarks but the

670
01:24:57,280 --> 01:25:02,480
connective tissue um is often lost

671
01:25:02,480 --> 01:25:11,600
i agree i agree um and for some that tends to mean oh there is no connection you know

672
01:25:11,600 --> 01:25:19,200
um two different things two separate things um but i i i agree it's not that simple

673
01:25:20,240 --> 01:25:25,920
no it isn't and what i what i you know as we just begin this portion of the discussion what i

674
01:25:25,920 --> 01:25:35,840
encourage people to do is consider these aspects that the the cosmology that we're dealing with

675
01:25:35,840 --> 01:25:42,480
for lack of a better term the cosmology of the lore that we do have documented in the british isles

676
01:25:43,840 --> 01:25:53,240
informs elements of this supernatural world view that you see in the

677
01:25:53,240 --> 01:25:59,760
supernatural world view that you see in appalachia and you see in the osarks although again as i

678
01:25:59,760 --> 01:26:06,960
mentioned some of that connective tissue has been lost and sometimes mixed with uh with other

679
01:26:06,960 --> 01:26:16,160
traditions so it is fascinating as points of comparison just as you can't really wrap your

680
01:26:16,160 --> 01:26:22,240
head around all of the lore in the osarks without including germanic lore without including

681
01:26:22,240 --> 01:26:35,200
cherokee lore without including african-american lore these all connect these all inform the the

682
01:26:35,200 --> 01:26:43,280
the development of of traditional osarkian folklore but they are also set they are connected

683
01:26:43,280 --> 01:26:51,280
they are also separate and you you have to play in that middle ground to to really develop a larger

684
01:26:51,280 --> 01:26:58,240
perspective what we do know though in terms of creating that recreating that connective tissue

685
01:26:58,240 --> 01:27:07,280
between the british isles and the osarks is that enormous numbers of early european settlers into

686
01:27:07,280 --> 01:27:16,800
or americans into the osarks as for example missouri was becoming a state in 1921 as uh

687
01:27:16,800 --> 01:27:22,960
arkansas was following suit not terribly long afterwards the individuals coming in these were

688
01:27:22,960 --> 01:27:30,400
largely tennessee and kentucky settlers these were largely scotch irish and on an ancestral

689
01:27:30,400 --> 01:27:37,600
level and sometimes on a literal level they were bringing with them these stories very much so

690
01:27:37,600 --> 01:27:47,760
so where do you want to start oh i think the

691
01:27:50,080 --> 01:27:59,840
just jumping over on our notes to page 14 just very briefly the concept of the fairies of the

692
01:27:59,840 --> 01:28:08,480
fey which we've talked a little bit about already and just time initially into the fairy trees

693
01:28:09,600 --> 01:28:22,480
predominantly the Hawthorne this overarching idea that certain trees have great spiritual meaning

694
01:28:22,480 --> 01:28:34,720
and that certain trees exist as gateways into the other world and that they have to be regarded you

695
01:28:34,720 --> 01:28:41,840
you walk lightly within these spaces and as as with much of the osarks uh and it's just with the

696
01:28:41,840 --> 01:28:54,240
story of humanity this is an existing um a simultaneous contradiction because on one hand

697
01:28:55,120 --> 01:29:04,080
osarkers made their living out of logging which certainly is a is a contradiction with the idea

698
01:29:04,080 --> 01:29:13,120
of the fey but at the same time there there are moments in which certain trees are regarded

699
01:29:13,760 --> 01:29:20,560
as particularly special uh interesting strange cursed the the two points that i think would be

700
01:29:20,560 --> 01:29:32,080
interesting one um is that even into comparatively recent times certain cedar trees were noted as

701
01:29:32,080 --> 01:29:34,160
attracting an infestation of copperheads

702
01:29:37,360 --> 01:29:44,400
and we still don't actually know why and it could happen in somebody's yard and you go out and

703
01:29:44,400 --> 01:29:50,000
usually in i think i think around august and for whatever reason ever copperhead in the country

704
01:29:50,000 --> 01:29:56,000
has decided they love this tree and so your your friendly cedar tree in the backyard is dripping

705
01:29:56,000 --> 01:30:05,280
with copperheads and that's unsettling that's unsettling and then the flip side is that

706
01:30:07,760 --> 01:30:16,720
cedar particularly with native americans in the region um is used for protection and cedar boughs

707
01:30:16,720 --> 01:30:26,400
put over doorways etc for protection and so it's almost you know the antithesis of its normal use

708
01:30:26,400 --> 01:30:35,200
yes which in terms of the witch fairy motif that it comes to be expected the thing that is the

709
01:30:35,760 --> 01:30:44,720
the ward also becomes the point of power true and that and that follows through with some of the

710
01:30:44,720 --> 01:30:54,560
Cherokee lore as well it makes for a very for for our contemporary sensibility it becomes very

711
01:30:54,560 --> 01:31:01,120
confusing because the thing that's supposed to protect you becomes the weapon of the thing that

712
01:31:01,120 --> 01:31:09,280
is ostensibly endangering you yes tread lightly yes uh or vice versa the

713
01:31:09,280 --> 01:31:19,440
the and and that's when it gets into that that really interesting space of it depends um and

714
01:31:20,000 --> 01:31:26,240
along with that just just jumping off for a moment this isn't specifically a beast but it is a

715
01:31:27,200 --> 01:31:33,120
a folkloric manifestation that i find really interesting this is jumping up into your part

716
01:31:33,120 --> 01:31:43,120
of the oaks is the um the the hanging tree that was not cut down yes and actually i was thinking

717
01:31:43,120 --> 01:31:52,800
about that earlier in time about the trees and their meaning um um traditionally uh and this and

718
01:31:52,800 --> 01:32:04,720
this isn't just endemic to the osarts but a tree that was used for hanging was viewed as unlucky

719
01:32:06,240 --> 01:32:16,240
and that it would draw hauntings to it um which has overtones of the fey just there too that that

720
01:32:16,240 --> 01:32:29,280
would draw spirits to it so the remedy was to cut it down and um this although it's a traditional

721
01:32:29,280 --> 01:32:34,720
belief it became more prominent during the civil war because you had a number of lynchings

722
01:32:35,360 --> 01:32:45,280
um in the burnt district during the war and so uh tails would kind of grow up around those

723
01:32:45,280 --> 01:32:52,880
hanging trees and uh they tried to cut them down there is one that isn't too far from where i live

724
01:32:52,880 --> 01:33:05,760
the the lore was that um uh soldier was lynched along the stage road and the tree was not cut down

725
01:33:05,760 --> 01:33:11,680
mainly because there weren't too many people around at the time because it was depopulated

726
01:33:11,680 --> 01:33:18,720
and then over time it's become a matter of debate of where exactly was the hanging tree along the

727
01:33:18,720 --> 01:33:29,040
road is it still there and the general area tends to have a number of hauntings and there's some

728
01:33:29,040 --> 01:33:34,240
conjecture that perhaps the reason there's so many hauntings in that area is because the

729
01:33:34,240 --> 01:33:43,600
is because the hanging tree was not cut down yeah yeah and it it's and i think i really

730
01:33:43,600 --> 01:33:48,720
you know this this speaks to something that is incredibly difficult to document other than

731
01:33:49,600 --> 01:33:57,680
identifying the area and seeing if you can gather evps etc right um

732
01:33:57,680 --> 01:34:07,200
but you know i i can say that there are a number of hauntings in in that vicinity that very close

733
01:34:07,200 --> 01:34:14,800
vicinity it is a matter of you know talking even to elderly residents and hearing what they say from

734
01:34:16,000 --> 01:34:22,160
you know their parents and grandparents that you know there's disagreement what was it this tree

735
01:34:22,160 --> 01:34:31,200
this tree or was it down the block or was it a block over exactly where and then some say

736
01:34:31,200 --> 01:34:37,200
well it the tree's dead now it's gone some say no it's still living which there certainly are

737
01:34:37,200 --> 01:34:43,120
trees in that area a few trees in that area that would have been there during the civil war in

738
01:34:43,120 --> 01:34:48,480
large enough to have been the hanging tree at that time so um

739
01:34:48,480 --> 01:34:55,600
um we we may just have spirits floating around looking for it i'm not sure

740
01:34:57,120 --> 01:35:06,320
and it it brings up a an unsettling aspect that that messes with us because it goes beyond

741
01:35:06,320 --> 01:35:19,920
um basic corporeal science right but the idea and and i personally believe that this idea

742
01:35:20,960 --> 01:35:32,880
holds merit in certain circumstances and locations is that at at points of violent death

743
01:35:32,880 --> 01:35:42,160
that there is a resonance created that does something within the space

744
01:35:43,600 --> 01:35:49,520
i agree and maybe not in every instance but certainly in a number i i do think that's true

745
01:35:49,520 --> 01:35:57,200
based on my experience investigating yes and so you you know and and going along with that

746
01:35:57,200 --> 01:36:04,560
and this does date back to to the old world there is a um

747
01:36:06,560 --> 01:36:13,520
and i i wish i could find the documentation of this it was very fascinating to me because it was

748
01:36:13,520 --> 01:36:21,520
a it was in a an engineering magazine that my dad got in the early 90s and i wish i had saved it

749
01:36:21,520 --> 01:36:33,120
and i wish i had saved it because it was detailing some 1990s early 90s um essentially

750
01:36:35,760 --> 01:36:46,000
emf evp and electromagnetic field and electronic voice phenomena and early digital camera work

751
01:36:46,000 --> 01:36:56,720
that was done in a reportedly extremely haunted castle in scotland interesting and it was this was

752
01:36:56,720 --> 01:37:07,520
published sort of as a um you know interesting out of the ordinary piece but it was detailing the

753
01:37:07,520 --> 01:37:16,640
the the the hack that was being involved but it was also being presented in this magazine from a

754
01:37:16,640 --> 01:37:23,360
serious standpoint it wasn't you know this was this wasn't uh this wasn't a tabloid magazine this was

755
01:37:23,360 --> 01:37:30,480
a magazine that traditionally dealt with things like you know a turban function and

756
01:37:30,480 --> 01:37:38,480
though and you know those types of things but it detailed that a number of very unsettling

757
01:37:42,480 --> 01:37:45,520
phenomena had been recorded

758
01:37:48,240 --> 01:37:56,880
the what appeared to be disembodied voices some some words coming through on the evps that were

759
01:37:56,880 --> 01:38:10,640
um uh not friendly and the the particular space within the scottish castle and i now that i'm

760
01:38:10,640 --> 01:38:15,360
talking about this i'm i'm like trying to figure out how we can narrow it down to find which one it

761
01:38:15,360 --> 01:38:23,840
was but it was a a particular dungeon well in which a number of people had been able to get

762
01:38:23,840 --> 01:38:34,480
to the dungeon well in which a number of people had been executed oh i think i know i think i do um oh

763
01:38:39,520 --> 01:38:46,160
i i i i have read and actually seen documentaries about that about a castle that fits that

764
01:38:46,160 --> 01:38:54,000
description with the dungeon well um but i i can't think of which castle it is off the top of my

765
01:38:54,000 --> 01:39:07,600
head but yes um and yeah and particularly rather gruesome um gruesomely built so that when they

766
01:39:07,600 --> 01:39:16,080
threw people into it they were impaled yes yes yes and uh so some really interesting documentation

767
01:39:16,080 --> 01:39:23,840
was done in the early 90s um that was recorded in this engineering magazine and just thinking

768
01:39:23,840 --> 01:39:34,880
about that uh i can't help but draw comparisons with with very aspects one uh spilled blood

769
01:39:34,880 --> 01:39:43,840
spilled blood seems to be a focusing point for creating this sort of almost rift within space

770
01:39:46,080 --> 01:39:53,840
uh that that seems to for example attract hauntings as well as potentially uh be a haunting

771
01:39:54,320 --> 01:39:59,920
it seems to attract hauntings as well it also and and for people who are like wait a second

772
01:39:59,920 --> 01:40:04,560
you're talking about ghosts you're not attacking bad beasts uh so it's it's it's it's it's

773
01:40:04,560 --> 01:40:12,000
uh or fantastical or mythological beings there is in the lore a very interesting intersection

774
01:40:12,560 --> 01:40:26,000
between ghost and fey and fey beast those things tend to to exist sort of not just alongside each

775
01:40:26,000 --> 01:40:38,240
other but within the same matrix yes at times yes and along with that another

776
01:40:40,160 --> 01:40:44,240
thing that i i can't help but just draw some comparisons i'm jumping subjects i know but

777
01:40:45,200 --> 01:40:50,400
from the hanging tree is haunted operating rooms

778
01:40:50,400 --> 01:40:59,520
that is a jump but yes it's got yeah and my my my my thought on this just as i'm going is um

779
01:41:01,120 --> 01:41:11,840
individuals having not um deliberately having a similar type of death which creates a resonance

780
01:41:11,840 --> 01:41:18,640
which may attract more than just ghosts um but regardless of the type of death that we're

781
01:41:18,640 --> 01:41:27,280
talking about but regardless of the intent the idea that dying in surgery is not unlike a violent

782
01:41:27,280 --> 01:41:38,000
death well that's true i mean it's i mean i mean if you look at it from the third person

783
01:41:39,680 --> 01:41:47,440
as someone perhaps on the other side the veil or the fey etc would um it really is the same

784
01:41:47,440 --> 01:41:57,040
um it's and i i guess you could say that the difference would be whether or not there would

785
01:41:57,040 --> 01:42:05,760
be the emotions involved at the moment of death but i'm not sure that for all those beings that

786
01:42:05,760 --> 01:42:13,760
that is the crucial point i'm not sure that's interesting and certainly operating rooms do tend

787
01:42:13,760 --> 01:42:27,440
to be extremely haunted areas in hospitals um almost on on par with mords i've always found it

788
01:42:27,440 --> 01:42:36,960
sort of interesting in an odd way that mords have so many hauntings associated with them

789
01:42:36,960 --> 01:42:45,600
um as well as cemeteries although i find that cemeteries tend not to generally be haunted

790
01:42:45,600 --> 01:42:55,200
although they're reputed to be haunted there are some exceptions um i've also in investigating

791
01:42:55,200 --> 01:43:03,840
areas that had mords uh have not really encountered one that had any activity that i experienced or

792
01:43:03,840 --> 01:43:10,160
it's investigators with me experienced although there are certainly stories um

793
01:43:13,360 --> 01:43:17,280
but more more operating rooms than mords

794
01:43:21,360 --> 01:43:29,360
and and again my my theoretical conjecture on this is yes we are dealing with uh with

795
01:43:29,360 --> 01:43:38,320
spirit hauntings but we're also running the possibility that other aspects of the other

796
01:43:38,320 --> 01:43:47,360
worlds may be attracted to these points and i i do think that is i i do think that's reasonable

797
01:43:47,360 --> 01:43:53,600
and in a possibility especially some of these these creatures or monsters that tend to have

798
01:43:53,600 --> 01:44:04,320
a almost a vampiric or or a werewolf type aspect to them uh tend to be drawn to

799
01:44:07,120 --> 01:44:11,920
and are seen in areas of death

800
01:44:11,920 --> 01:44:22,160
of death and that and this is um so you know the the larger overarching point for our listeners

801
01:44:23,200 --> 01:44:29,280
is that there's a number of people who've experienced phenomena that doesn't quite seem

802
01:44:29,280 --> 01:44:40,080
to all make sense right or necessarily just be explained by a pure haunting right and so this is

803
01:44:40,080 --> 01:44:48,160
sort of our our mind-bending episode to take into account that uh there are potentially

804
01:44:48,160 --> 01:44:56,000
lots of things that could be coming into play on our notes on page 28 there was a a particular

805
01:44:56,720 --> 01:45:02,480
uh entity um that that i found interesting in terms of tying in which is the gladiator

806
01:45:02,480 --> 01:45:10,160
which is the gladiator is a scottish ghost that often appears as a beautiful woman in a green dress

807
01:45:10,160 --> 01:45:19,920
with a gray visage and long yellow hair however her attire is in part disguised because the lower

808
01:45:19,920 --> 01:45:26,880
half of her body is that of a goat interesting a bit like deer woman that's what i was thinking

809
01:45:26,880 --> 01:45:37,280
and that's exactly what i was thinking and there's uh also a little bit of a tie even in the

810
01:45:37,280 --> 01:45:46,320
note in the the notes uh the the cross ties her to the battle and she uh which is a an irish um

811
01:45:46,320 --> 01:46:00,720
um vampire ghost woman fe manifestation well yes and and and dear woman in Cherokee and

812
01:46:01,520 --> 01:46:14,480
lore and kapao lore has similar characteristics um not quite so much the vampiric per se but certainly

813
01:46:14,480 --> 01:46:24,720
um a quality of stealing uh energy stealing life even uh even if it's not through blood

814
01:46:25,680 --> 01:46:33,360
yeah and and there is a there is the aspect um well while not vampiric in the idea of

815
01:46:33,920 --> 01:46:40,560
i'm you know there to to you know drain someone of their blood um the deer won't deer woman

816
01:46:40,560 --> 01:46:48,080
exist as a cautionary tale because um she kills men she does particularly men that have not treated

817
01:46:48,080 --> 01:46:54,080
women well yes which is

818
01:46:56,720 --> 01:47:05,360
has some some very strong similarities with irish folklore and in in that regard

819
01:47:05,360 --> 01:47:14,400
in in that regard it is interesting you know coming back to one of our previous points

820
01:47:15,760 --> 01:47:19,680
this particular bit of lore with a glass jig and comparing her with deer woman

821
01:47:21,680 --> 01:47:29,120
does strongly substantiate the idea that we're dealing with um sort of a in this case we might

822
01:47:29,120 --> 01:47:38,560
be dealing with a a singular plane of phenomena and uh as each people group is interacting

823
01:47:39,200 --> 01:47:45,920
they begin to create their own lore to contextualize it but they're contextualizing

824
01:47:45,920 --> 01:47:53,200
essentially the same type of phenomena yes and and and dear woman's a good example that i've

825
01:47:53,200 --> 01:48:01,360
heard versions of it where she she is the ghost of a woman that's been murdered by a man uh as well

826
01:48:01,360 --> 01:48:14,160
as versions where she is more of that other type creature um that is interacting but she's not a

827
01:48:14,160 --> 01:48:26,160
human ghost right and that is is distinctive um because again we're we're so oftentimes now

828
01:48:26,800 --> 01:48:34,400
dealing with a a being that is simultaneously corporeal and non-corporeal

829
01:48:34,400 --> 01:48:44,240
um the idea is that with a ghost um is almost always is simply regarded as much as we can

830
01:48:44,240 --> 01:48:52,560
compartmentalize anything that a ghost is non-corporeal right and that on the opposing end

831
01:48:52,560 --> 01:48:58,480
of the spectrum for example the concept of a cryptid like bigfoot is that bigfoot is always

832
01:48:58,480 --> 01:49:10,640
corporeal and then we're now in this really interesting territory of somewhere in between

833
01:49:11,840 --> 01:49:22,720
yes well and even in in um native lore in this area uh the quapa the ee-wah fits that category

834
01:49:22,720 --> 01:49:28,400
it it does and let's talk about that just for a moment because of that connection with the osars

835
01:49:29,200 --> 01:49:35,600
uh the concept of the ee-wah because the ee-wah is there's there's a couple of things i really like

836
01:49:35,600 --> 01:49:41,120
just in terms of the discussion of the ee-wah and the first one is that the ee-wah is not an

837
01:49:41,120 --> 01:49:51,360
ancestor spirit yes specifically not an ancestor spirit ancestor spirits are entire are just spirit

838
01:49:51,360 --> 01:50:03,120
um the ee-wah are are seen as a tritster uh mischievous in some cases even more benevolent

839
01:50:05,680 --> 01:50:12,720
and that it is spirit and a physical entity at the same time

840
01:50:12,720 --> 01:50:21,200
and that again if you're if you're not accustomed to this type of lore doesn't seem like it should

841
01:50:21,200 --> 01:50:40,000
be possible right but um and i i really like that lore because it is it it it very much pairs up

842
01:50:40,000 --> 01:50:51,280
uh with a lot of celtic lore as far as concept um which i like because it shows that that idea is

843
01:50:51,280 --> 01:51:01,680
not just endemic to the calcs right i think that is that is very very reasonable um and

844
01:51:02,800 --> 01:51:08,000
something that you know just from a from a cultural standpoint something that we saw that

845
01:51:08,000 --> 01:51:15,120
many people don't realize took place is that our many of our celtic forebears when they ended up

846
01:51:15,120 --> 01:51:24,000
in apple atcha and later when they ended up in the ozars there was a lot of cultural similarities

847
01:51:24,000 --> 01:51:37,680
between the celt and the Cherokee as an example yes they they they were not entirely entirely

848
01:51:37,680 --> 01:51:48,640
um amiss from each other um no as well as well with some of the culture the osage would as well

849
01:51:50,400 --> 01:52:00,480
correct and and i think that we see um you know aspects of that that cultural um cross-pollination

850
01:52:00,480 --> 01:52:09,520
uh taking place that's really really interesting and of particular interest to me which again i

851
01:52:09,520 --> 01:52:18,560
i really think is beautiful and fascinating and just a extraordinary in its complexity of the human

852
01:52:18,560 --> 01:52:27,760
story is that there's for example a number of of individuals i know who have uh first of all are on

853
01:52:27,760 --> 01:52:39,040
are on the on the roles um in in oklahoma with enough uh native american ancestry to qualify them

854
01:52:39,040 --> 01:52:47,360
to to be able to carry their their uh american indian or first nation cards to qualify for

855
01:52:47,360 --> 01:52:56,000
for example for health care etc in oklahoma with uh with the tribes and these are individuals

856
01:52:56,000 --> 01:53:05,600
oftentimes with uh blue eyes some cases sandy blonde hair um complexions that are lighter than

857
01:53:05,600 --> 01:53:14,320
mine and that was uh one one conversation i had with a friend who does have a native strong

858
01:53:14,320 --> 01:53:22,080
native american background and looking at me coming judge you're darker than i am and i'm like well

859
01:53:22,080 --> 01:53:32,640
i'm welsh so there you go um but again it's it it it reminds me of that conversation i had years

860
01:53:32,640 --> 01:53:39,040
and years ago with the merchant artist in actually it's silver dollar city it was 20 years ago and

861
01:53:40,080 --> 01:53:47,440
she's blonde blue blue eyes and she's talking to me about how important her cherokee ancestry is to

862
01:53:47,440 --> 01:53:57,600
her and mentioning um from from an ancestral lineage point and from a non basically a spiritual

863
01:53:57,600 --> 01:54:06,720
manifestation point that in her words she heard the drums i've heard that before and i found that

864
01:54:06,720 --> 01:54:11,520
really beautiful and that was the first time that i'd ever heard that term and i had to like say

865
01:54:11,520 --> 01:54:20,960
hello time out what are you talking about and and and at least from from my conversation with her and

866
01:54:20,960 --> 01:54:28,000
i uh may need to further contextualize this with the idea that certain people uh of cherokee

867
01:54:28,000 --> 01:54:35,920
ancestry at certain times in their life particularly moments of high portent will hear uh ancestral

868
01:54:35,920 --> 01:54:44,160
drumming that that is distinct in some cases they may be the only person to hear it but it

869
01:54:44,160 --> 01:54:51,680
speaks very profoundly to them yes which is goes right back to the definition we started with

870
01:54:52,720 --> 01:55:02,400
yes yes it does um on on our notes on page 35 at the bottom uh the cubly and i is uh is a bit of

871
01:55:02,400 --> 01:55:17,440
welch uh lore in regards to essentially gnome miners uh not not too terribly far removed from

872
01:55:17,440 --> 01:55:32,480
the tommy knockers yes yes and that the that basically they they came with the welch to america

873
01:55:33,040 --> 01:55:42,720
and were encountered by miners here yes and it to me this particular interesting um of course the

874
01:55:42,720 --> 01:55:56,720
the tri-state mining district is a crucial part of the the osars and the osars story and not part of

875
01:55:56,720 --> 01:56:06,400
the separate not part of the osars but my ancestors landed in southern iowa which is in at the time was

876
01:56:06,400 --> 01:56:13,920
coal mining country again lots and lots of mining associated and a lot of lore wrapped around that

877
01:56:14,640 --> 01:56:25,920
and it's something that i that i think bears a little bit of discussion is aspects of mining

878
01:56:25,920 --> 01:56:35,920
because of its um conflict with nature essentially like the the individuals who are mining were

879
01:56:35,920 --> 01:56:44,080
putting themselves into extremely high risk environments uh is not in a weird sort of way

880
01:56:44,080 --> 01:56:52,000
in a folkloric sort of way is not dissimilar from sailing uh the the great sailing lore

881
01:56:52,880 --> 01:56:59,600
that and the superstition surrounding it that's true that's that that is an interesting parallel

882
01:56:59,600 --> 01:57:10,560
i hadn't thought about but very true um lots of danger lots of risk um and the need to be able to

883
01:57:12,080 --> 01:57:19,040
figure things out in a crisis um it's many the uh some of the lore with the cobley and i

884
01:57:20,880 --> 01:57:28,400
are that they would be helpful to the miners and they would knock in places where there were

885
01:57:28,400 --> 01:57:38,720
uh rich veins of mineral or metal flavor they were mining for and it reminds me of a of a of a story

886
01:57:39,440 --> 01:57:48,000
in the tri-state district of um a mining engineer particularly uh arthur vendilari who um

887
01:57:48,000 --> 01:57:58,960
um was known to just have that touch um um an uncanny ability to find

888
01:58:01,120 --> 01:58:10,960
mines and to sink holes in the right place and in fact the uh how the picture mining field

889
01:58:10,960 --> 01:58:19,440
uh which is in the tri-state district just over the uh oklahoma line and became the richest

890
01:58:21,600 --> 01:58:35,440
lead district in the world um really fits this lore because um they had um gone down to around

891
01:58:35,440 --> 01:58:44,720
veneta oklahoma thinking that they that there might be a vein down there and this is in about 1914 1915

892
01:58:45,920 --> 01:58:56,000
um and so all the mining equipment it's on wagon this is that long ago and they um

893
01:58:57,520 --> 01:59:04,720
struck out didn't find anything so they were coming back towards joplin and almost suddenly

894
01:59:04,720 --> 01:59:11,760
they found almost as if someone knocking or whatever they had they have a wagon break down

895
01:59:12,560 --> 01:59:19,440
and so they have to fix the wagon before they can move on so vendilari decides what the heck

896
01:59:19,440 --> 01:59:29,520
i'm going to sink a sink a a test hole while he's waiting and so by accident hits the the largest

897
01:59:29,520 --> 01:59:38,160
lead found in the world uh they probably know i may have been talking to them

898
01:59:39,360 --> 01:59:46,720
that's what made me think of because it was like it was just completely unplanned you know uh

899
01:59:48,400 --> 01:59:52,240
almost you would think off the cuff but perhaps there was a reason the wagon broke down where it

900
01:59:52,240 --> 02:00:00,240
is which is is vastly interesting and and you know when you look at pitcher oklahoma today

901
02:00:02,480 --> 02:00:02,720
the

902
02:00:05,360 --> 02:00:11,120
sort of the the modern retelling that what the what the fe give you they also take away

903
02:00:11,120 --> 02:00:25,040
very very true very true um now of course is is uh advertised as you know ghost town etc technically

904
02:00:25,680 --> 02:00:31,200
technically isn't because there actually are a few people still there but um the town has been

905
02:00:31,200 --> 02:00:42,240
bought out because of of leg contamination from the chap piles um and i can still remember people

906
02:00:42,240 --> 02:00:47,040
you know coming through and and people driving through weren't from the area who thought they

907
02:00:47,040 --> 02:01:03,200
were mountains so wow yeah it's again the the there's a something that i think we lose when we

908
02:01:03,200 --> 02:01:14,640
when we lose our ancestral ties what we often lose with it is the cautionary tale to remain in balance

909
02:01:14,640 --> 02:01:19,680
very true often what happens is in some way we end up having to relearn that lesson

910
02:01:20,480 --> 02:01:28,880
over and over and over um the the understanding that we must exist in balance in order to

911
02:01:30,960 --> 02:01:39,040
move on to the next generation successfully often stands in the way of mass profit

912
02:01:39,040 --> 02:01:51,200
true which i think is interesting because how many times does uh the lost treasure and the fairy gold

913
02:01:53,360 --> 02:01:56,080
play a role in these stories

914
02:01:56,080 --> 02:02:06,160
often often they do and and then in modern life they do in reality so to speak so i think that

915
02:02:06,160 --> 02:02:15,120
there's there there are some strong parallels um the the cross all of these boundaries all of these

916
02:02:15,120 --> 02:02:26,000
lines and we can learn so much whether you believe in the fey or not whether you believe in cryptids

917
02:02:26,000 --> 02:02:33,200
or not there is so much that you can learn in terms of our ancestral past i agree and

918
02:02:33,200 --> 02:02:43,360
be informed for lessons for the very real modern world that may be a good place to end tonight

919
02:02:44,400 --> 02:02:50,080
we want you to not forget to check out upcoming events and merchandise at darkoesarts.com

920
02:02:50,080 --> 02:02:55,680
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921
02:02:55,680 --> 02:03:01,760
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922
02:03:01,760 --> 02:03:07,360
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923
02:03:07,360 --> 02:03:13,600
to be discussing seances and spiritualism catch the darkoesarts podcast on branson podcast network

924
02:03:13,600 --> 02:03:20,720
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925
02:03:20,720 --> 02:03:32,240
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