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Hey everybody, this is Joshua Heston.

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And I'm Lisa Martin.

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And this is the Dark Ozarks on the Branson Podcast Network.

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We're an exploration of everything that's dark in history, mysteries, the paranormal,

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and everything else.

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We explore the noir, the unknown, cryptozoology, UFOs, paranormal, and all the dark stuff that

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happens in the Ozarks.

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You can find Dark Ozarks on Branson Podcast Network on Facebook under Dark Ozarks, as

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well as our YouTube channel, Dark Ozarks.

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We'll leave no stone unturned to bring you the dark history, mysteries, and legends of

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the Ozarks.

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Welcome to the Dark Ozarks.

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We are discussing monsters.

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From the British Isles to the Ozarks, monsters from the Celtic past are roaming around the

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21st century.

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We will get back to that in a minute.

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But first, we want to remind you that the Dark Ozarks podcast is now available on Branson

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Podcast Network, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, Google Podcasts, Substack, or

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about any other podcast platform.

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So what monsters would the Celts recognize in today's Ozarks?

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I think there's a really good chance they would recognize a lot of them, from the old

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gods to mischievous supernatural beasts to monsters of a more mortal kind.

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And there are a few familiar faces right here in the Ozarks.

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And yeah, much to my dismay.

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We're looking at you, Haller.

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We will return to what might be hiding in the dark or under your bed.

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But first, we want to invite you to like, follow, and subscribe to the Dark Ozarks on

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Your $4.99 per month subscription allows you to come with us on paranormal investigations,

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Subscribe today to be entered in the drawing.

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And now you can get Dark Ozarks t-shirts for sale at DarkOzarks.com and ParanormalScienceLab.com.

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We encourage you to check out Always Buying Books in Joplin, Missouri, in person and online

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on Facebook and at the website, AlwaysBuyingBooks.com, for all of your reading needs, including a

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large section on the paranormal, history, and more.

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Not to mention, the building is haunted.

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Tell Bob and Elise that we sent you.

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We also want to thank Beard Engine Brewing Company in Alba, Missouri.

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Beard Engine Brewing is the only English-style brewery in Missouri and has been twice named

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Missouri's best brewery by the Missouri Brewers Association.

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Great beer and great food in a historical building with a noir past.

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And yes, their building is also haunted.

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Tell Nate and Tiff that we sent you.

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We have monsters.

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Monsters.

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Yes.

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That is, it is, obviously it's an exciting, it's a fun subject.

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The Ozarks have an interesting number of monsters and an interesting number of those monsters

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do appear to have ties back to the old world.

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I'm not sure where exactly we want to start.

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There's a lot to play with in our compendium of critters.

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Well, I mean, we just got through St. Patrick's Day, so perhaps we start with leprechauns.

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The thing that really jumps out to me besides the Lucky Charms cereal, which I just had

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some, that was how I celebrated my St. Patty's Day.

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I had Lucky Charms cereal.

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There you go.

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But I think that the motif, I'm going to refer to it as a motif initially before we dig into

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the actual lore, but the motif of the Irish leprechaun is likely the most accessible idea

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for pop culture and for everyday people who are not familiar with Irish folklore or Irish

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mythology or the larger Celtic mindset.

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And honestly, we have the cereal to thank for that.

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We all grew up with the Lucky Charms leprechaun is a back door into eating some sort of extremely

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strange processed grain cereal with small dehydrated marshmallows that really bears

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no resemblance to anything Irish, but it's still the idea.

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Leprechauns guard the pot of gold.

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They're tricky, quote unquote mischievous.

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And they're also interesting because they clearly have fairy qualities, but on the upside,

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even the caricatures of leprechauns do not fit the Tinkerbell stereotype.

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The leprechaun is male.

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He's quirky.

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He acts very differently than the classic idea of fairies.

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And yet he has these weird magical powers, which clearly are fae.

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So I think even in just the subconscious and just in the popular culture mindset as well,

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there is a hint of getting our minds shifted around the magical fae, of which Ireland,

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Scotland, the Celtic subcultures and the Celtic cultures that ultimately influenced the Appalachian

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folklore and the Ozarks folklore.

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It's being hinted at.

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Yes.

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Yes.

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And something a lot of people probably aren't aware of is that going back into the lore,

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it's not as clear whether the leprechaun is the mischievous but rather harmless creature

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or whether there's more of a malevolent side to him.

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Oh, go ahead.

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Oh, just going to say that's very appropriate when you begin to play in the pantheon of

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Irish mythology is that these beings are extremely ambiguous in their presentation.

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And sometimes they are malicious and you don't really ever know which one you're going to

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get.

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Very true.

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And I guess a side note too is that a lot of people would associate with the leprechaun

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the phrase luck of the Irish, mainly from advertising and so forth.

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That actually has nothing to do with the Irish lore and actually comes out of the West California

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and it was actually kind of an insult that the Irish immigrants usually were down on

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their luck, etc.

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So having the luck of the Irish kind of meant you were down and out and not that you really

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were lucky or that the friendly elf brought luck.

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Very, very true.

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Now there's an interesting side that I want to jump into because it does have a tie to

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some of our reports in the Ozarks.

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Currently we can't disclose location, source, etc. but it is a first person source of an

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individual who saw not quote unquote a leprechaun but in the old world there is an entire sub

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category of supernatural beings that appear as old men.

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Yes.

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And appear as small old men.

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And if you look at the reports and I think I find it really interesting because we have

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folklore on this subject that goes back hundreds and hundreds of years and yet we relegate

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that into the category of fairy tale, folklore, bedtime story.

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What did someone imagine might be cool or creepy or interesting to put in their story?

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Let's have a little old magic man who's literally little like anywhere from a few inches tall

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to just maybe a foot or two tall.

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But clearly not what we would think of as a small person.

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This is differently proportioned typically with and also very notably appearing old.

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Now there are they that appear radiant and beautiful and ageless.

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Think Galadriel from Lord of the Rings.

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But then this is clearly very different and sometimes they're often in particularly in

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English and Scottish lore.

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They are oftentimes referred to as elves as an elf man and sometimes as an elf woman.

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I remember one report referencing being on a hillside and just having the sense that

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everything changed and couldn't quite describe how or explain how it changed but they simply

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knew it had changed.

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And they saw this couple.

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It was a diminutive elderly couple dressed in strange clothes studying him and then they

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were gone.

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And oftentimes they are they're quizzical.

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They seem to be very curious.

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They seem to have some sort of power and that also seems to be the experience that many

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times when someone encounters something of this nature they know they're in the presence

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of a being that has some sort of gravitas and some sort of power that is otherworldly.

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It's very oftentimes unsettling in the rare instances that it occurs.

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And we had I know we can't disclose a lot about it because it's still very private but

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at least one report of an individual seeing one of these beings in the Ozarks when they

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least expected.

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Yes.

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And so and I think since we can't give out too much I think it's important to note that

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these things are not just relegated to centuries old lore and plans that these kind of experiences

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do happen actually around the world in this day and really with pretty much all of the

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types of monsters that we're going to talk about today.

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Yes.

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And I suppose the leprechaun might or the little people or whatever you want to call

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it might take issue with us putting in the monster category but it is an otherworldly

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and out of place experience.

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And as is noted all we can really say on this particular report is it is credible.

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Yes.

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And that you guys get to take our word for it.

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But it is and there are and we've talked about this at length in a couple of other episodes

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but a number of First Nation peoples the Cherokee combined have long histories of interacting

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with beings of this sort.

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And it is a good lead in and it is also very mind bending I think if you try to logic it

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out because these these beings these individuals whatever it is that they are they are corporeal

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there they're not a ghost there they're not a phantom they leave footprints they they

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walk through dirt and they they walk through in the case of the boot prints in my grandfather's

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garage lately boot prints have no boot prints in the sawdust they sometimes interact they

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seem very human like in some categories in terms of of experiencing human like emotions

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and curiosity and interest sometimes appearing to be afraid sometimes very much not appearing

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to be afraid and yet they exist slightly out of out of shift with time.

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Yes.

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Yes.

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And so a little in column A a little in column B that something of the other realm of something

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supernatural as well as something physical and tied at least part of the time tied to

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the physical world.

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And something that is also notable that I find very fascinating but also a little bit

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unsettling they they seem to in some way be tied to a type of time or place often when

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someone reports seeing one seeing one of these people they appeared they're described as

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having very human like clothing only a very old fashion.

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Yes, like out of time.

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Yes.

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And almost like seeing someone in period clothing but in miniature.

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And there is additionally a strange obsession with shoes.

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Yes, yes known to steal steal shoes replace them make new ones.

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Lots of lots of we can do probably an entire episode on European shoe lore but it is very

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eye opening when you begin to collect and sometimes repeat first person credible first

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person stories of this nature.

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It really begins to shift one's perspective or about not only just folklore but about

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fairy tales in general.

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Begins that just the the shifting process and for better or for worse it really begins

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to change the way that you look at the world around you.

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It's true and actually I was just thinking as you were talking about the shoe or actually

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not very far from my house there is a telephone wire that goes across the street that as long

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as I can remember years and years and years, someone has always tied two shoes together

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and thrown over that wire, and it's not the same shoes and it's always a new looking pair

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of shoes.

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They they never get very old.

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And I chuckled to myself before it I'm wondering if that is a warning off or offering to them.

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I'm not sure which.

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Or very.

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It would be interesting if if some of the more modern practical jokes urban legends

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and customs not only have a basis in more ancient lore but in some cases might actually

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act as sacrificial offerings.

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Yeah I've always I've wondered about this because it goes back decades.

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Always in the same spot.

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And so someone someone keeps sacrificing shoes.

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There's a there's a there's a leprechaun esque entity.

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And on our notes it's way at the back on page 38.

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But I want to get your thoughts on the red cap primarily because he appears to be Scottish.

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And as as as appropriately holds with supernatural beings of Scottish lore.

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Everything and we do mean everything will try to kill you.

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Yes, yes, it's kind of like Australia.

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It is.

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It really is.

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Only only colder.

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And I'm good.

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I really am.

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Great tea.

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Good whiskey.

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Excellent shortbread.

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We are known for a few things.

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Yes, yes.

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And but I.

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I find it I find it interesting you know the the red cap is is referred to as a murderous

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goblin.

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Yes.

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Well and the red cap is because he soaks his cap in the blood of victims.

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I mean that's cheery.

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And you know he's described with prominent teeth, skinny fingers, talons like eagles,

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fiery red eyes.

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You know all these things to be perfectly honest it evokes vampire lore to me.

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That's a good point.

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In the kitchen.

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And but then he has some traits that are almost like a dragon lore.

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I mean inhabits ruined castles.

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And it just oh and then of course he can be driven away with the scripture or brandishing

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a crucifix and will vanish into flames.

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I mean if that doesn't evoke Brom Stoker I don't know what does.

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That is very true.

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And that's another thing is we are beginning to delve into Celtic beings and beasties that

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there isn't an innate shape shifter quality about many of these beings in terms of how

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they manifest themselves.

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They could appear short they could appear tall they could appear giants they could appear

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as tiny winged beings.

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And for all we know it might be manifestations of the same thing.

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Exactly and a parallel a modern parallel would be actually in Ghost Honey with shadow men

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particularly and apparitions to a degree anyway.

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A lot of lore as well as a lot of people encountering entities now in real time will discuss that

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either their change their formal change from one time to another or during an experience

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or that their form will be exaggerated.

240
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The shadow men are a good example that often they appear extremely tall taller than human

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form.

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And no one really knows why.

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And and actually at the John White House in Joplin there's video that was caught of a

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shadow man walking through the parlor and down the hallway and where he comes it where

245
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the top of the shadow man comes in relation to the doorways measuring it would put him

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at just about nine feet tall.

247
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Wow.

248
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So we don't call the monsters and or these kind of not necessarily in the same sense

249
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of these grotesque characters and grotesque in the classical sense of the word but we

250
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still talk about that same kind of behavior and appearance shifting in ways that we would

251
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not associate with traditional lore.

252
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Agreed on that.

253
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And in that regard it's it's interesting there there are some very corporeal shape shifting

254
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stories and lore and some of our beasties tonight will will will cross over into that

255
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realm but in others it is not uncorporeal in the sense that these beings seem to exist

256
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only peripherally associated with our dimension and run and and can and do manifest themselves

257
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in very strange ways.

258
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In some cases as you mentioned elongated in a way that honestly it's easy to find very

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unsettling.

260
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Not necessarily appear at the time in the manner they did at death but instead maybe

261
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a younger version of themselves or a stylized version.

262
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So this notion of shifting appearance comes through in various ways in a lot of different

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aspects of these things.

264
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But I think I think the red cap where the leprechaun could be debated about is a is

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he a true monster.

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I think red cap fits more square in that in that category and he's referred to as the

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goblin but I mean in some ways you know it it could be a type of fae it could be almost

268
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a vampire or or just a shapeshifter changeling.

269
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It to me is fascinating because we do there there is a great deal of ambiguity associated

270
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with the the nature of of many of these are they and of course we we ask ourselves are

271
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they good are they bad are they.

272
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And for individuals and I know and it's easy to get focused on the you know the box with

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the cereal box with the leprechaun on it go oh that's funny.

274
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But you and I have both had experiences where say an individual has asked us for to come

275
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in for an investigation etc.

276
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Perhaps for poltergeist activity for odd things happening and they're genuinely scared and

277
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they're like what is here is it good is it bad.

278
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It does it does it mean us harm and so you shift a little bit into that perspective and

279
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those questions have resonated probably for all of for as long as human beings have been

280
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interacting with phenomena that appears sentient sometimes corporeal sometimes non-corporeal

281
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and we're wondering is it aware of us does it like us does it not like us does it mean

282
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us ill will is it there for positive reasons does it just not care.

283
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These are these are genuine questions that we have people ask us so it's for me even

284
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though it's easy to sometimes dismiss you know all that's a fairytale that's funny the

285
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the human need for answers when you're being presented with this sort of thing is very

286
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real and I respect that.

287
00:27:53,080 --> 00:28:03,680
Yes definitely I agree something that I just recalled here too with red cap is that which

288
00:28:03,680 --> 00:28:11,400
is kind of interesting with that notion of talking about people asking for help is that

289
00:28:11,400 --> 00:28:20,700
he was believed they're believed to have been basically a red cap at any ruined tower.

290
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So that basically one of one of these beings would be at any abandoned ruined castle or

291
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tower which kind of opens the possibility of the the urban explorer going into the abandoned

292
00:28:41,040 --> 00:28:55,360
house the abandoned you know mansion and having a less than friendly encounter with something

293
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is it a little more universal that there is a red cap kind of entity at abandoned abandoned

294
00:29:04,560 --> 00:29:08,000
places or abandoned buildings.

295
00:29:08,000 --> 00:29:18,880
I think that's a really interesting observation and it really does begin to shift one's perspective

296
00:29:18,880 --> 00:29:26,000
a little bit and this is this began really when you know I started I started the process

297
00:29:26,000 --> 00:29:33,680
of opening myself up to the potentiality of for example the presence of elementals the

298
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idea that that some hauntings and some sentient hauntings aren't ghosts.

299
00:29:42,600 --> 00:29:52,600
Right and that is very much in my experience a possibility and I think I've encountered

300
00:29:52,600 --> 00:30:00,240
a few of those where yes you're dealing with a sentient presence but it's not human never

301
00:30:00,240 --> 00:30:11,560
was but we're not talking of you know the evil you know demonic sort it's more related

302
00:30:11,560 --> 00:30:15,040
to place and that would make sense to me.

303
00:30:15,040 --> 00:30:24,560
Another interesting aspect of red cap is that he can have magical powers just flat amped

304
00:30:24,560 --> 00:30:36,160
reading as written by none other than Mr. Walter Scott in the ministral stroze of the

305
00:30:36,160 --> 00:30:47,200
Scottish border he reports a ballad that originally was written by John Layton called Lord Solace

306
00:30:47,200 --> 00:30:53,600
in which red cap grants his master safety against weapons and lives in a chest secured

307
00:30:53,600 --> 00:31:00,120
by three strong padlocks which almost gives it a genie in the bottle quality.

308
00:31:00,120 --> 00:31:09,360
It does it does there there is the playing with fire aspect of that as well the idea

309
00:31:09,360 --> 00:31:20,000
of the conjuring on a leash that often does not turn out so well.

310
00:31:20,000 --> 00:31:29,280
Exactly exactly so I mean red cap could literally be one of those that is hard to put in a box

311
00:31:29,280 --> 00:31:43,280
that he is it spirit is it they is it vampires a shapeshifter is it magical it may be yes.

312
00:31:43,280 --> 00:31:55,080
And I'm going to I want your opinion on this a certain aspect of red cap lore may have

313
00:31:55,080 --> 00:32:04,000
also been colored by English chroniclers attempting to sortie into an inhospitable Scotland and

314
00:32:04,000 --> 00:32:07,000
getting killed.

315
00:32:07,000 --> 00:32:14,720
Well I mean I mean that's that's possible although the lore seems to be Scottish itself

316
00:32:14,720 --> 00:32:27,400
but I could certainly see the English kind of buying all into it and yet you know yet

317
00:32:27,400 --> 00:32:37,840
these horrible things as almost to engender sympathy for their for their losses I mean

318
00:32:37,840 --> 00:32:48,960
it's possible and it or at least be spun as far as perhaps red cap represents fighting

319
00:32:48,960 --> 00:32:51,960
the Scots period.

320
00:32:51,960 --> 00:33:02,640
Very very true and with a with a with a reputation like that certainly it's good psychological

321
00:33:02,640 --> 00:33:07,320
warfare on the side of the Scots to to promote that.

322
00:33:07,320 --> 00:33:10,920
That's true that's true.

323
00:33:10,920 --> 00:33:19,600
I wanted to just also on page 39 I wanted to go into just a little bit about Vargas.

324
00:33:19,600 --> 00:33:25,080
I find the Vargas really really powerful and fascinating.

325
00:33:25,080 --> 00:33:29,000
And with I would say dread ties to the Ozarks.

326
00:33:29,000 --> 00:33:31,360
That I guess jumped out to me.

327
00:33:31,360 --> 00:33:36,680
Yeah I think first of all should we say with with red cap I mean there are there are things

328
00:33:36,680 --> 00:33:44,800
that are experienced in the Ozarks that have qualities that are incorporated into red caps

329
00:33:44,800 --> 00:33:51,280
such as the appearance and and and that kind of thing.

330
00:33:51,280 --> 00:33:59,480
And there there are cases that seem to be thought form etc.

331
00:33:59,480 --> 00:34:07,720
I mean if you want to get literal with it being driven away by scripture and the crucifix

332
00:34:07,720 --> 00:34:13,960
you know the Etzer's case happened here.

333
00:34:13,960 --> 00:34:20,640
I mean so there are so many things that different stories that could be tied to that but Vargas

334
00:34:20,640 --> 00:34:24,320
I think definitely can.

335
00:34:24,320 --> 00:34:33,000
One hundred percent and the the Vargas is northern English particularly Yorkshire folklore

336
00:34:33,000 --> 00:34:37,840
of what is described as a goblin dog.

337
00:34:37,840 --> 00:34:47,600
A monstrous goblin dog and anybody anything practically would recognize this is this is

338
00:34:47,600 --> 00:34:51,040
a great spectral hound.

339
00:34:51,040 --> 00:35:00,480
But it in the case of the Yorkshire lore it is is quite specific and it does begin to

340
00:35:00,480 --> 00:35:12,200
cross those it existed in intersection between ghost, omen, goblin, elf.

341
00:35:12,200 --> 00:35:17,760
There's there's a lot it's a lot of things at once.

342
00:35:17,760 --> 00:35:31,040
Yes and in an interesting note that on the northern English side Vargas basically is the

343
00:35:31,040 --> 00:35:34,800
beginnings of the word ghost.

344
00:35:34,800 --> 00:35:37,800
Correct.

345
00:35:37,800 --> 00:35:49,200
And actually then a hybrid with that with the German you end up with things like poltergeist

346
00:35:49,200 --> 00:35:51,320
etc.

347
00:35:51,320 --> 00:35:58,600
So this is sort of the or actually the origin word of for ghost that we're so familiar with.

348
00:35:58,600 --> 00:36:04,360
Now on the on the Scottish side it was booger for bogart.

349
00:36:04,360 --> 00:36:07,240
Bogart was the ghost.

350
00:36:07,240 --> 00:36:12,680
And for folks here in the Ozarks or in North America etc. who are not terribly familiar

351
00:36:12,680 --> 00:36:20,960
with York and the city of York and Yorkshire we're talking about a an area in northeast

352
00:36:20,960 --> 00:36:36,040
England near the Scottish near Scotland obviously and during up until well the from about I'm

353
00:36:36,040 --> 00:36:41,880
going to spitball here but beginning with the Viking invasions in around 8900 it was

354
00:36:41,880 --> 00:36:43,840
a Norse kingdom.

355
00:36:43,840 --> 00:36:47,640
Yes it turned into.

356
00:36:47,640 --> 00:36:55,840
And immediately prior to the Battle of Hastings it was a Norse kingdom until King Henry and

357
00:36:55,840 --> 00:37:04,160
the English army defeated the Vikings and then sustained a two week force march from

358
00:37:04,160 --> 00:37:10,240
Yorkshire to the south of England just in time to lose the Battle of Hastings to William

359
00:37:10,240 --> 00:37:11,240
the conqueror.

360
00:37:11,240 --> 00:37:12,240
Yes.

361
00:37:12,240 --> 00:37:18,000
And that marches is attributed to a factor in the battle.

362
00:37:18,000 --> 00:37:27,480
It is because they were worn out when they got there and had in the the the the reality

363
00:37:27,480 --> 00:37:36,160
was that they had just sustained an extraordinary victory in terms of defeating the Norse and

364
00:37:36,160 --> 00:37:43,960
York and even to this day in terms of you know influence Nordic influence or Viking

365
00:37:43,960 --> 00:37:53,880
influence in the way that the English language is used the way that the Yorkshire dialect

366
00:37:53,880 --> 00:38:02,920
developed and and many elements of the history are are heavily influenced in that in that

367
00:38:02,920 --> 00:38:04,960
particular region.

368
00:38:04,960 --> 00:38:12,240
And so as a result of that I find it really interesting and I wonder how much the bar

369
00:38:12,240 --> 00:38:21,400
guests may also have been influenced by the Norse and specifically Viking lore as well

370
00:38:21,400 --> 00:38:28,520
as you know it tales that of which we might be unfamiliar but it reminds me of the you

371
00:38:28,520 --> 00:38:30,840
know Odin's wild hunt.

372
00:38:30,840 --> 00:38:44,080
It reminds me of Fenrir and especially notable in warrior cultures shifting away from from

373
00:38:44,080 --> 00:38:53,040
some of the later years of peasant cultures being impacted by plague but instead warrior

374
00:38:53,040 --> 00:39:03,360
cultures who were surrounded by and you know constantly exposed to the reality of death.

375
00:39:03,360 --> 00:39:08,800
The idea of a death omen seems to be particularly appropriate.

376
00:39:08,800 --> 00:39:15,920
Yes and that that certainly comes out in the Ozarts but and even in some of the incarnations

377
00:39:15,920 --> 00:39:25,880
of the stories from Yorkshire that you see that there's a legend of the Perler's gill

378
00:39:25,880 --> 00:39:33,160
where a man ventures forth to the horrid gill of the limestone hill in order to summon and

379
00:39:33,160 --> 00:39:38,000
confront the bar guests in an act of ritual magic.

380
00:39:38,000 --> 00:39:47,000
And so basically something that you know a beast that apparently they felt needed to

381
00:39:47,000 --> 00:39:49,520
be dealt with that harshly.

382
00:39:49,520 --> 00:39:53,920
The discovered soon.

383
00:39:53,920 --> 00:39:59,960
With human marks.

384
00:39:59,960 --> 00:40:03,320
He did not have the mojo he was hoping he had.

385
00:40:03,320 --> 00:40:11,640
No and there's also a story of the bar guests entering the city of York occasionally and

386
00:40:11,640 --> 00:40:18,280
it preys on lone travelers.

387
00:40:18,280 --> 00:40:25,800
And there's other places in the area bearing its name associated with with it.

388
00:40:25,800 --> 00:40:32,280
And then in the 1870s there's a story of a shape shifting bar guest who said to live

389
00:40:32,280 --> 00:40:37,520
near Darlington and said to take the form of a headless man who would vanish in flames.

390
00:40:37,520 --> 00:40:45,120
A headless lady a white cat a rabbit a dog or a black dog.

391
00:40:45,120 --> 00:40:56,580
And you know this is really kind of getting two tales in the Ozarts of what are commonly

392
00:40:56,580 --> 00:41:03,520
called burger dogs but definitely a lot of similarity.

393
00:41:03,520 --> 00:41:11,200
And of course burger dogs are also known as Scottish shore and often in the Ozarts as

394
00:41:11,200 --> 00:41:14,800
with the bar guests they can be omens of death.

395
00:41:14,800 --> 00:41:25,600
And in the stories here there are quite a few that come out of the Civil War of omens

396
00:41:25,600 --> 00:41:36,280
of death with the with the phantom dog or phantom hog that can also be headless.

397
00:41:36,280 --> 00:41:42,160
It can end in the in the aspect of the death omen.

398
00:41:42,160 --> 00:41:48,760
It does seem to have some sort of incredible power.

399
00:41:48,760 --> 00:41:56,840
It does and certainly at least during and I imagine in Yorkshire too that the idea of

400
00:41:56,840 --> 00:42:02,800
the death omen probably took root during some of the battles.

401
00:42:02,800 --> 00:42:11,120
I mean if you're not familiar you had battles going back to the Norse invasions you had

402
00:42:11,120 --> 00:42:15,920
with the Normans you the war of the roses.

403
00:42:15,920 --> 00:42:26,280
You know York saw a lot of war and sacking including by the the Scots during the fight

404
00:42:26,280 --> 00:42:29,520
for independence in the early 1300s.

405
00:42:29,520 --> 00:42:40,160
So time and again it's not surprising that they would have death omen stories but and

406
00:42:40,160 --> 00:42:44,800
in the Ozarts that kind of came out pretty much the same way during the Civil War soldiers

407
00:42:44,800 --> 00:42:52,360
would say that seeing a phantom hound or hog and they would be described as larger than

408
00:42:52,360 --> 00:43:01,200
natural often headless and if it was headless it was even more ominous as a death omen that

409
00:43:01,200 --> 00:43:11,760
they would die in battle and it happened enough that it was given credence.

410
00:43:11,760 --> 00:43:20,480
There's several things that really come to mind on these subjects.

411
00:43:20,480 --> 00:43:31,760
One and of course we're to a degree we're contributing to this pop culture milieu with

412
00:43:31,760 --> 00:43:40,800
our own publications online but I watch a lot of videos on this subject as you know

413
00:43:40,800 --> 00:43:47,520
because I send them to you.

414
00:43:47,520 --> 00:43:48,520
I love it.

415
00:43:48,520 --> 00:43:49,520
I love the genre.

416
00:43:49,520 --> 00:43:50,520
I love the interest.

417
00:43:50,520 --> 00:43:54,080
I love digging into the things.

418
00:43:54,080 --> 00:43:59,640
But something that I have really noted in the proliferation of this information and

419
00:43:59,640 --> 00:44:14,680
say the past 15 years is that there is a often because of the nature of the internet.

420
00:44:14,680 --> 00:44:20,840
Now we were fortunate enough to be able to do long format and dig into these things and

421
00:44:20,840 --> 00:44:26,560
I love long format podcasts across the board but many of the things that we have on the

422
00:44:26,560 --> 00:44:35,840
internet if it's an article it's often 1200 words or less if it's a sometimes it's just

423
00:44:35,840 --> 00:44:42,960
a short paragraph and you scroll through images oftentimes if it's a video it's introductory

424
00:44:42,960 --> 00:44:50,820
videos 10 minutes long the top 10 fill in the blank you know so devoting about one minute

425
00:44:50,820 --> 00:44:58,600
oftentimes with some fun unique contemporary graphics contemporary images sometimes AI

426
00:44:58,600 --> 00:45:08,960
art which is a little odd not typically a fan of that but this sort of cottage industry

427
00:45:08,960 --> 00:45:16,440
of lore internet lore or lore that is being presented on the internet that's about a million

428
00:45:16,440 --> 00:45:26,040
miles wide and about an inch thick and there's there it isn't I don't I'm not saying that

429
00:45:26,040 --> 00:45:32,080
it's meaning to but one of the end results is it gives the impression of superficiality

430
00:45:32,080 --> 00:45:38,360
it gives the impression that there's little interesting tidbits but you're not getting

431
00:45:38,360 --> 00:45:44,240
the sense of this incredibly rich tapestry of history when we're talking about the bar

432
00:45:44,240 --> 00:45:52,200
guests when we're talking about the red cap we are of course contemplating the possibility

433
00:45:52,200 --> 00:46:00,920
of deep paranormal realities first of all and then and and individuals experiences but

434
00:46:00,920 --> 00:46:09,080
beyond that we are we're talking as you noted in in Yorkshire and its relationship to the

435
00:46:09,080 --> 00:46:16,680
bar guests and how history in Yorkshire may may have contributed or in some cases manifested

436
00:46:16,680 --> 00:46:28,200
this death omen that we're talking about a tragic and compelling tapestry of human experience

437
00:46:28,200 --> 00:46:37,920
that is easily 1500 if not 2000 if not ultimately perhaps even 3000 years old generation after

438
00:46:37,920 --> 00:46:48,800
generation having these incredible and extraordinary and heartbreaking and devastating experiences

439
00:46:48,800 --> 00:46:57,360
of death and loss and attempt to regain territory attempt to take territory the individuals

440
00:46:57,360 --> 00:47:06,940
caught in the in the the the in between spaces of all of that and it's very difficult to

441
00:47:06,940 --> 00:47:15,400
convey that in a 10 minute video it really is in in the the flip side is it can also

442
00:47:15,400 --> 00:47:24,840
give the sense that that that really it's either superficial or you you now have the

443
00:47:24,840 --> 00:47:36,880
compendium of knowledge yes and in neither is is accurate and thought that just kind

444
00:47:36,880 --> 00:47:46,200
of came to mind is and what your thought on it the the bar guest is an example you know

445
00:47:46,200 --> 00:47:52,440
we're getting into territory monsters that are at least representative of animals and

446
00:47:52,440 --> 00:48:03,680
in the Ozarks particularly early on the the use of monsters as you know animals as quote

447
00:48:03,680 --> 00:48:14,320
monsters so to speak was really put to use in forming the image of the Ozarks and particularly

448
00:48:14,320 --> 00:48:23,280
the oz Arkansas Ozarks I think that's fast yeah what were your thoughts on on that and

449
00:48:23,280 --> 00:48:33,320
and well I think that there is something really powerful we we erroneously refer to North

450
00:48:33,320 --> 00:48:45,400
America as the new world that that's not accurate and I believe that many of the of the first

451
00:48:45,400 --> 00:48:51,200
settlers to cross the Mississippi and come into Arkansas to come into Missouri to come

452
00:48:51,200 --> 00:49:03,680
into the Ozarks were presented with a certainly if they were able and willing to listen they

453
00:49:03,680 --> 00:49:13,120
were presented with that tapestry they were presented with that richness of depth of thousands

454
00:49:13,120 --> 00:49:23,440
of years of reality thousands of years of story of a type of narrative that was told

455
00:49:23,440 --> 00:49:32,360
if not told to them in the tongues of First Nation peoples it was told to them in the

456
00:49:32,360 --> 00:49:38,760
earth it was told to them in the trees it was told to them in the water that there were

457
00:49:38,760 --> 00:49:52,120
things here there were there was a past here that much like even in a more grand way much

458
00:49:52,120 --> 00:50:01,280
like the Celts having this extraordinary past but no written word to write it down the first

459
00:50:01,280 --> 00:50:07,880
white settlers to come into the Ozarks were observing the realities of this extraordinary

460
00:50:07,880 --> 00:50:13,280
past but without any books there wasn't there was no libraries there were there were no

461
00:50:13,280 --> 00:50:19,000
books in some cases there were barely any people other than Osage raiding parties to

462
00:50:19,000 --> 00:50:27,280
to to say anything about this space but we know that there were thousands of years of

463
00:50:27,280 --> 00:50:38,480
individuals living and dying with their with their own unique cultures and stories in these

464
00:50:38,480 --> 00:50:45,560
lands and we don't know those we don't know the words but I think about the settlers coming

465
00:50:45,560 --> 00:50:52,440
into these spaces into the into the spaces where back in those days you would have had

466
00:50:52,440 --> 00:51:01,120
a million stars visible at night over you you would have had old growth the the original

467
00:51:01,120 --> 00:51:10,280
forests which in many cases were pine these these grand stands of timber the likes of

468
00:51:10,280 --> 00:51:16,120
which it's very difficult for us to wrap our heads around and the depth of stories that

469
00:51:16,120 --> 00:51:23,160
were whispered in in the roots and the water and the trees and the stone that said there

470
00:51:23,160 --> 00:51:33,800
were also those stories that were being embodied and encapsulated by animals beasts that beasties

471
00:51:33,800 --> 00:51:41,160
that in some cases for some of our our early American forebears were of a type that had

472
00:51:41,160 --> 00:51:49,760
not been encountered before and were were very terrifying in some cases you you think

473
00:51:49,760 --> 00:51:58,600
about especially early English colonists coming into the New World and and coming from from

474
00:51:58,600 --> 00:52:07,280
England which certainly with its centuries of war and etc. or you know and the issue

475
00:52:07,280 --> 00:52:18,000
certainly had its its own set of of complex dangers but coming into a land that had for

476
00:52:18,000 --> 00:52:26,320
example rattlesnakes cottonmouths you get into a bit further south alligators you get

477
00:52:26,320 --> 00:52:37,680
into you know animals like bison you get into bears there there's a mass compendium of

478
00:52:37,680 --> 00:52:41,920
animals that honestly we take for granted we're not that freaked out by because we're

479
00:52:41,920 --> 00:52:49,200
accustomed to them but these were in many cases alien beings for the for the people

480
00:52:49,200 --> 00:52:57,600
who were first coming into the region from Europe and that in and of itself just engenders

481
00:52:57,600 --> 00:53:04,840
a sense of fear a sense of wonder possibly a sense of majesty certainly a sense of introspection

482
00:53:04,840 --> 00:53:10,840
and also a sense of how the heck do I survive this because there is no infrastructure to

483
00:53:10,840 --> 00:53:13,960
back me up if anything goes wrong.

484
00:53:13,960 --> 00:53:21,880
Right and then and then frankly the writers kind of reinforced that and and we don't think

485
00:53:21,880 --> 00:53:30,480
about that as as far as how these kind of lore stories get going but in the you know

486
00:53:30,480 --> 00:53:42,760
in the first half of the 1800s particularly 1830s to 1860s popular broadsheets magazine

487
00:53:42,760 --> 00:53:54,200
so to speak of the time that we would equate to you know our favorite tv shows today probably

488
00:53:54,200 --> 00:54:02,320
capitalized on the ruggedness of the area and these kind of stories and the leading

489
00:54:02,320 --> 00:54:11,240
sort of sport sporting and hunting magazine of the day was actually the the spirit of

490
00:54:11,240 --> 00:54:16,440
the times and it was actually written by a fella.

491
00:54:16,440 --> 00:54:23,120
He was a newspaper man and lawyer from Batesville Arkansas which is kind of ironic because it

492
00:54:23,120 --> 00:54:30,940
was the most popular such magazine in the country written in Arkansas and he capitalized

493
00:54:30,940 --> 00:54:40,480
on the image of the wilderness and the beasties in Arkansas and his name was Pete Whetstone

494
00:54:40,480 --> 00:54:54,440
and they he portrayed the area so well in that way that people avoided settling there

495
00:54:54,440 --> 00:55:04,440
for a longer period of time and then another fella Thomas Thorpe he was a from Louisiana

496
00:55:04,440 --> 00:55:16,040
he wrote a story the the bed bear of Arkansas and that story basically went viral as almost

497
00:55:16,040 --> 00:55:25,920
fan fiction of of Whetstone's and basically portrayed the the large hunting story about

498
00:55:25,920 --> 00:55:34,280
the largest bear that ever lived being in Arkansas and they actually credit these kinds

499
00:55:34,280 --> 00:55:44,440
of stories with people settling in Arkansas later than surrounding states so it's kind

500
00:55:44,440 --> 00:55:55,440
of interesting how those things happen and so you still have wild animal lore you know

501
00:55:55,440 --> 00:56:02,840
hogs bears mountain lions you get a lot of that that really I think comes back from from

502
00:56:02,840 --> 00:56:12,240
this kind of tradition I definitely find it really really fascinating it is at a crucial

503
00:56:12,240 --> 00:56:18,480
moment in the development of the state of Arkansas because we're just dealing with that

504
00:56:18,480 --> 00:56:27,440
that time right prior and then after statehood when it had reached I think 50,000 a population

505
00:56:27,440 --> 00:56:35,600
50,000 I think was the the tipper to allow I think so yeah a state to be entered into

506
00:56:35,600 --> 00:56:47,600
the union and the the the it to me it is really really fascinating it does deal heavily with

507
00:56:47,600 --> 00:56:54,280
beasts as you already mentioned we're we're talking about bear hunting we're talking about

508
00:56:54,280 --> 00:57:02,400
wild hogs in particular as well as panthers those are the the big three whether whether

509
00:57:02,400 --> 00:57:10,640
they were as large as reported whether they were as fierce as reported etc is you know

510
00:57:10,640 --> 00:57:20,200
specific to to an anecdote and specific to an individual story but there is a really

511
00:57:20,200 --> 00:57:28,360
fascinating push-pull from a from a sociocultural standpoint that is going on here as Arkansas

512
00:57:28,360 --> 00:57:36,000
is moving into statehood because we have these outlandish stories and and I think to some

513
00:57:36,000 --> 00:57:43,360
degree it's fair to say that there are some some basis we're dealing with on an extremely

514
00:57:43,360 --> 00:57:58,440
rugged frontier at this at this juncture point and we're also dealing with a not contradictory

515
00:57:58,440 --> 00:58:07,080
but I would say geography within conflict we have very rugged mountains we have some

516
00:58:07,080 --> 00:58:14,440
navigable river we have a lot of natural resources that are suddenly available for exploitation

517
00:58:14,440 --> 00:58:20,240
and then prior to things like river management and draining we have an enormous amount of

518
00:58:20,240 --> 00:58:34,520
swamp land and no effective cure for malaria so there are a lot of factors going in and

519
00:58:34,520 --> 00:58:42,720
I think from the 1840s into the 1860s we see you know you look at the the war you look

520
00:58:42,720 --> 00:58:50,000
at the Civil War in the in Arkansas you look at some of the successful and then in some

521
00:58:50,000 --> 00:58:56,960
cases very unsuccessful riverboat expeditions and campaigns in association with Arkansas

522
00:58:56,960 --> 00:59:05,480
you look at the the differences between the fighting in lowland Arkansas and the flatland

523
00:59:05,480 --> 00:59:11,600
the delta as opposed to fighting up in the mountains up here on Key Ridge there's there

524
00:59:11,600 --> 00:59:16,880
we're dealing with very disparate regions that just happen to be in close proximity

525
00:59:16,880 --> 00:59:30,720
true true and it's sort of an aside that I find kind of amusing is that the sort of the

526
00:59:30,720 --> 00:59:37,340
voice of reason in all of this these tales and this and these stories that got put out

527
00:59:37,340 --> 00:59:48,400
ultimately belong to none other than Albert Pike of trying to pull people off the ceiling

528
00:59:48,400 --> 00:59:57,120
and say now now you know Arkansas is not you know that that that wild that that dangerous

529
00:59:57,120 --> 01:00:07,080
and here's the beauty of it you know considering other things he's known for you you're just

530
01:00:07,080 --> 01:00:18,040
not expecting that but what Albert Albert Pike being one of our favorite Ozarks adjacent

531
01:00:18,040 --> 01:00:25,760
personalities from the 19th century yes well I mean he did live in Arkansas and actually

532
01:00:25,760 --> 01:00:39,400
taught school there and darn near got killed there and then went on to other notoriety

533
01:00:39,400 --> 01:00:52,760
that that you don't have to get into there there I am I'm I'm Pike Pike is one of one

534
01:00:52,760 --> 01:01:00,840
of my heroes that I hold at arms length yeah he's a fascinating character that there there

535
01:01:00,840 --> 01:01:06,160
were you know you know admirable things that in his life and other things you just kind

536
01:01:06,160 --> 01:01:18,080
of go wait oh and I something that on this overall subject that I I do find particularly

537
01:01:18,080 --> 01:01:28,560
fascinating we have this with these 19th century publications we have this motif of Arkansas

538
01:01:28,560 --> 01:01:42,840
that has developed yeah backwoods bear hunt and hillbillies and there in some cases these

539
01:01:42,840 --> 01:01:50,000
stories are the origin of these stories are native ie individuals the individuals who

540
01:01:50,000 --> 01:01:56,000
are writing them are from Arkansas they are in Arkansas they have found a publication

541
01:01:56,000 --> 01:02:04,200
you know a means of fame and comparative fortune through publication in this and in other cases

542
01:02:04,200 --> 01:02:08,560
the writers may only have been peripherally involved with Arkansas perhaps they passed

543
01:02:08,560 --> 01:02:14,360
through perhaps they were originally from Arkansas but they moved to Chicago and then

544
01:02:14,360 --> 01:02:28,880
begin publication and it becomes its own the at the time of printing a contemporary folklore

545
01:02:28,880 --> 01:02:39,800
develops of the nature of the state and it is it once frontier like and heroic but at

546
01:02:39,800 --> 01:02:51,120
the same time it can it can and often is extremely demeaning and stereotypical yes yes I think

547
01:02:51,120 --> 01:03:01,440
more so to those outside the region stereo stereotyping where I think in the region more

548
01:03:01,440 --> 01:03:08,720
of it was taken tongue-in-cheek or could be and one aspect I wanted to touch on is that

549
01:03:08,720 --> 01:03:18,240
these tall tales and of early Arkansas everything they focus a lot on bears hogs and wild cats

550
01:03:18,240 --> 01:03:32,280
now of course bears are not native in thousands of years to the British Isles etc but lore

551
01:03:32,280 --> 01:03:40,240
about monstrous cat beings actually are you know something that comes out of lore from

552
01:03:40,240 --> 01:03:50,760
the from the IOs and the Celts yes it does Goblin cats witch cats hell cats not not

553
01:03:50,760 --> 01:04:06,840
the f6f built by Grumman 1942 ah the preceded by the Wildcat and not the car no but these

554
01:04:06,840 --> 01:04:17,800
are this is something that dates back extraordinarily now we have we have endured the notoriety

555
01:04:17,800 --> 01:04:27,360
of the explosion and proliferation of fiery comments in regards to the existence or nonexistence

556
01:04:27,360 --> 01:04:34,240
of large cats in the Ozarks and particularly what color they may or may not be I'll leave

557
01:04:34,240 --> 01:04:41,040
it at that but I vote for I vote for transparent I think we should write about transparent

558
01:04:41,040 --> 01:04:56,040
cats that's okay with that but it's there there is something now I think an interesting

559
01:04:56,040 --> 01:05:04,040
thing just from a psychological emotional spiritual standpoint there is something instantly

560
01:05:04,040 --> 01:05:12,920
evocative about the idea of a large supernatural cat it is I mean it's I mean certainly you

561
01:05:12,920 --> 01:05:22,200
know phantom hands certainly have that that mistake but I think with with these cats it

562
01:05:22,200 --> 01:05:33,120
seems to be more almost a little more vicious version if that's possible agreed and there

563
01:05:33,120 --> 01:05:38,640
there is the certainly for anybody who's familiar with cats since they were tried to tangle

564
01:05:38,640 --> 01:05:48,160
with one that wasn't happy stuck in a box needing a bath needing to go to the vet these

565
01:05:48,160 --> 01:05:56,800
types of things yeah it doesn't take very much cat to inflict an enormous amount of

566
01:05:56,800 --> 01:06:09,560
damage yes and then you take one that is very large and it is terrifying but yes and then

567
01:06:09,560 --> 01:06:22,560
also just the idea of which cats too I think is very interesting aside from the typical

568
01:06:22,560 --> 01:06:33,840
Halloween motif of a which is familiar being a black cat it's more innate than that and

569
01:06:33,840 --> 01:06:47,520
in some ways to me the controversy about whether or not there could be black panthers in our

570
01:06:47,520 --> 01:07:03,120
midst is almost reminiscent of a witchy overtone that it has to be you know it cannot be it's

571
01:07:03,120 --> 01:07:18,440
magical if it is little tongue-in-cheek there but it's the idea of just the visceral reactions

572
01:07:18,440 --> 01:07:29,240
of people have to the notion I think can discern you know which cat it is it is and I feel

573
01:07:29,240 --> 01:07:40,120
that really brings up just a just an interesting observation because in a perhaps in a different

574
01:07:40,120 --> 01:07:46,960
dimensional timeline individuals would be having the conversation about whether or not

575
01:07:46,960 --> 01:07:51,920
black panthers existed in the Ozarks and in a very reason sort of well they could be

576
01:07:51,920 --> 01:07:58,600
there they might not be there by whatever that's not what happens there are intense

577
01:07:58,600 --> 01:08:09,200
emotions and intense personal investment on both sides oftentimes oftentimes the there

578
01:08:09,200 --> 01:08:23,240
there are no animals of this nature in this region category are and as zealous if not

579
01:08:23,240 --> 01:08:31,040
more zealous for their cause then then the individuals who oftentimes you know are the

580
01:08:31,040 --> 01:08:36,680
folks rural folks farming folks who are going y'all can believe what you want to but I know

581
01:08:36,680 --> 01:08:45,680
what I saw exactly aside from accounts from law enforcement etc you know and so there's

582
01:08:45,680 --> 01:08:52,720
there's a there is a even and I find it incredibly fascinating I think it's an important motif

583
01:08:52,720 --> 01:09:02,320
in terms of observing human nature even when you strip the traditions of religion out of

584
01:09:02,320 --> 01:09:10,200
something you you still find human beings acting religiously and zealously for a cause

585
01:09:10,200 --> 01:09:18,400
that they believe in that I mean that's that's true and ironically most of most of the people

586
01:09:18,400 --> 01:09:22,080
with such strong opinions don't seem to have a personal stake in the matter either I mean

587
01:09:22,080 --> 01:09:32,720
or even as personal experience which I find a little baffling but I also this comes back

588
01:09:32,720 --> 01:09:37,960
to our you know many many of the individuals who've reached out to Darko's Arts etc are

589
01:09:37,960 --> 01:09:45,920
commented and you know opened up dialogue through the page that a lot of everyday folks

590
01:09:45,920 --> 01:09:53,560
who are being argued with in regards to the existence of and I'll just say the existence

591
01:09:53,560 --> 01:10:00,240
of Black Panthers and the Ozarks the the folks who've seen them they're not dissimilar to

592
01:10:00,240 --> 01:10:05,720
the individuals that we've talked to who have had paranormal experiences genuine incredible

593
01:10:05,720 --> 01:10:13,480
paranormal because they're like I don't I didn't care until it happened to me I'm not

594
01:10:13,480 --> 01:10:17,720
trying to argue with anyone I'm just telling you what I experienced or I'm just telling

595
01:10:17,720 --> 01:10:27,520
you what I saw exactly exactly and and I think it's a good illustration of if anyone's confused

596
01:10:27,520 --> 01:10:36,000
by why there's such a rich history of lore particularly in Scotland of which cats just

597
01:10:36,000 --> 01:10:49,120
that process of that dialogue makes it understandable of how you end up with lore like that you

598
01:10:49,120 --> 01:10:57,200
that you have a very real creature that is very dangerous that can be very vicious on

599
01:10:57,200 --> 01:11:11,040
a level that other animal attacks do not have the same level of mutilation etc and ascribing

600
01:11:11,040 --> 01:11:26,480
something more than a corporal animal to it as being extremely unsettling even more so

601
01:11:26,480 --> 01:11:35,520
and watching the debate about Panthers and the Ozarks I can see yeah I can just imagine

602
01:11:35,520 --> 01:11:42,560
how all of lore developed over time in the past regarding large cats and witches and

603
01:11:42,560 --> 01:11:56,040
so forth because it is rather amazing it is and I think that on a on a sort of a psychosocial

604
01:11:56,040 --> 01:12:06,200
quality there there is a lot of momentum and a lot of force and likely from a from an aspect

605
01:12:06,200 --> 01:12:15,280
of genetic memory and or ancestral memory there is a lot of momentum in in the whole

606
01:12:15,280 --> 01:12:21,120
in this entire genre that's that's true I think I think you hit the nail on the head

607
01:12:21,120 --> 01:12:32,800
there I I am I'm personally fascinated by by witch cat stories and just that conflation

608
01:12:32,800 --> 01:12:41,240
it is also interesting just putting yourself into the the mindset just a little bit of

609
01:12:41,240 --> 01:12:54,760
the mindset your what's the word for it your many so first of all many of the the settlers

610
01:12:54,760 --> 01:13:03,880
coming into the Ozarks were Scotch-Irish and they were coming from with a an incredibly

611
01:13:03,880 --> 01:13:14,640
rich tradition of witch cats yeah and and which cat lore as well as wards against witch

612
01:13:14,640 --> 01:13:22,560
cats and understanding of which cats as shifters and all of these things and they're coming

613
01:13:22,560 --> 01:13:30,680
into a region that unlike Scotland and Northern Ireland which had cats but did not have large

614
01:13:30,680 --> 01:13:36,200
cats there they are suddenly coming into a region you can debate the melanistic color

615
01:13:36,200 --> 01:13:42,240
or non-melanistic color or you want to but they are coming into a region in which there

616
01:13:42,240 --> 01:13:54,560
were very large cats living and hunting so yes so if if if domesticated size cats are

617
01:13:54,560 --> 01:14:03,240
an issue now one that's five times their size or so oh my you know I can yeah I agree I

618
01:14:03,240 --> 01:14:11,640
can see that and you brought up a point too there that it's the the shifter aspect of

619
01:14:11,640 --> 01:14:22,560
it I wanted to go into a little more as far as there are a lot of of tales in the Ozarks

620
01:14:22,560 --> 01:14:33,280
actually that fall into that category and actually I think more over time there seem

621
01:14:33,280 --> 01:14:47,720
to be more occurring now than even in you know 150 200 years ago it seems and it's in

622
01:14:47,720 --> 01:14:51,880
part kind of you know it comes out of this tradition also comes out of Native American

623
01:14:51,880 --> 01:15:01,880
traditions but you have lore and experiences are being brought to us etc involving shape

624
01:15:01,880 --> 01:15:12,440
shifting whether it is a human form or a human appearance with animal characteristics or

625
01:15:12,440 --> 01:15:23,560
shifting between a human form and animal form and sometimes it's related to magic and sometimes

626
01:15:23,560 --> 01:15:32,120
not as clearly and I find that interesting I find it interesting that there seems to

627
01:15:32,120 --> 01:15:40,880
be more accounts of it now than in the past what are your thoughts oh I think it's that

628
01:15:40,880 --> 01:15:45,440
one is complicated you know I think one of the things we have established is that there's

629
01:15:45,440 --> 01:15:53,560
an enormous amount of ancestral memory that even outweighs ancestral lore and first of

630
01:15:53,560 --> 01:16:02,080
all I think incredibly powerful it's difficult to track because but it is something that

631
01:16:02,080 --> 01:16:10,320
seems to happen where even if the lore is lost if the stories are lost over a generation

632
01:16:10,320 --> 01:16:18,000
that the somehow the gravitas or the importance of the thing continues to reign in the following

633
01:16:18,000 --> 01:16:24,600
generations and so someone for example of Scottish or Irish or Scots-Irish ancestry

634
01:16:24,600 --> 01:16:31,400
who might not even know that they have that ancestry could be exposed to a thing and some

635
01:16:31,400 --> 01:16:36,040
have say I don't understand why but this is incredibly important to me I am personally

636
01:16:36,040 --> 01:16:44,320
invested in the thing and I can't explain why that's true and then but and then bumping

637
01:16:44,320 --> 01:16:54,040
up against Native American lore that has similar characteristics and I think in that kind of

638
01:16:54,040 --> 01:17:05,400
situation the lore from both traditions kind of validates the other as far as oh this kind

639
01:17:05,400 --> 01:17:16,920
of thing is not just unique in one tradition or another and so it gives it more pretense

640
01:17:16,920 --> 01:17:28,280
I think as far as okay there's something to it yes I in the way I can the way I tend to

641
01:17:28,280 --> 01:17:34,720
see this or I'm seeing this at the moment is like looking into a reflection of the past

642
01:17:34,720 --> 01:17:40,000
book of glass is shattered you see all of these different fragments and bits and pieces

643
01:17:40,000 --> 01:17:46,560
and certain things certain things that you see may may feel very important other things

644
01:17:46,560 --> 01:17:56,840
may simply not make any sense usually a great place to go is into the original lore if at

645
01:17:56,840 --> 01:18:03,880
all possible finding the original the original documentation that's certainly a lot easier

646
01:18:03,880 --> 01:18:13,440
to do with our European ancestry because of places like Trinity College etc that there

647
01:18:13,440 --> 01:18:21,960
are that there's documented bits and pieces that that really do go deep but in the in

648
01:18:21,960 --> 01:18:30,840
the case of individuals with with Native American ancestry connecting with your tribe learning

649
01:18:30,840 --> 01:18:36,960
your tribe's history connecting going to the for example in many cases around here finding

650
01:18:36,960 --> 01:18:43,800
where your tribe is is is headquartered in in Oklahoma talking to individuals who have

651
01:18:43,800 --> 01:18:49,560
made it of their vested interest to learn and preserve the language to learn and preserve

652
01:18:49,560 --> 01:18:55,440
the customs the cultures and learn the history and understand the history all of these things

653
01:18:55,440 --> 01:19:03,200
are are very very important in the process to see and find what resonates because a lot

654
01:19:03,200 --> 01:19:11,680
of times a thing will resonate and we subconsciously or even unconsciously associate it we know

655
01:19:11,680 --> 01:19:16,440
it's important there's something about the thing it might be a theme it might be an image

656
01:19:16,440 --> 01:19:26,360
it might be a bit of song that we just innately connect with and we don't know why and I think

657
01:19:26,360 --> 01:19:31,800
in many cases it is that ancestral memory it is that connection with our past and our

658
01:19:31,800 --> 01:19:37,080
past thousands of generations past and we know it's important but we can't explain

659
01:19:37,080 --> 01:19:43,320
why it's also within that space really easy especially with the internet to just get again

660
01:19:43,320 --> 01:19:50,920
those fragments those pieces and we might associate ourselves with that but not fully

661
01:19:50,920 --> 01:19:57,080
be able to contextualize the association and so we're we're suddenly in essence basing

662
01:19:57,080 --> 01:20:03,560
our personality off of a very fragmented image and we become very personally invested and

663
01:20:03,560 --> 01:20:10,920
in some cases hostile in terms of defending something that we don't fully understand.

664
01:20:10,920 --> 01:20:18,760
I think that's I think that's a fair assessment. Personal experience I've only done it like

665
01:20:18,760 --> 01:20:33,240
repeatedly. What was the surprise? Yeah mostly with my Celtic ancestors. I don't know about

666
01:20:33,240 --> 01:20:41,400
you I'm going to talk about headless horsemen. It's always a fun topic. Headless beasts

667
01:20:41,400 --> 01:20:51,240
headless phantom beasts of any kind are are incredibly fun. The reality

668
01:20:53,800 --> 01:20:58,360
that we can tie this back to the Dullahan is fascinating to me.

669
01:20:58,360 --> 01:21:11,800
Yes and again it headlessness is death omen also a lot of shades of the banshee

670
01:21:13,640 --> 01:21:23,720
or similarities but what I think it's interesting that the Dullahan can has more control over who

671
01:21:23,720 --> 01:21:37,240
dies I think or picking and choosing and it really is the genesis of sleepy hollow

672
01:21:38,360 --> 01:21:46,040
which everyone's familiar with. I love it so I'm going to brag on myself for just a moment

673
01:21:46,040 --> 01:21:54,840
because that's the thing I do. I am very proud of the fact that I've been a fan of the Dullahan for

674
01:21:55,560 --> 01:22:06,040
probably close to 25 years. The Dullahan is a bit more commonplace on the internet

675
01:22:06,040 --> 01:22:16,360
today than it was 25 years ago. So let's just say I dug pretty deep to find Dullahan lore in

676
01:22:16,360 --> 01:22:25,640
the late 90s early 2000s and succeeded. There is something very certainly very

677
01:22:27,960 --> 01:22:35,320
spectral and powerful and malevolent and terrifying and resonant about the image of the Dullahan

678
01:22:35,320 --> 01:22:46,600
even before you know his origins because the Dullahan is and I find this interesting technically

679
01:22:46,600 --> 01:22:55,560
the Dullahan is a fairy and that for people who are not familiar with the broad realities of

680
01:22:56,440 --> 01:23:03,880
Irish fairyland they are not prepared for something like the Dullahan. He's a headless

681
01:23:03,880 --> 01:23:13,240
rider on a black horse carrying his own head under his arm. Which in the head is basically how he

682
01:23:13,240 --> 01:23:21,560
guides himself because he can see and uses a human spine as a whip,

683
01:23:23,160 --> 01:23:31,080
dragging a wagon in some versions that is full of you know it's basically a funeral wagon

684
01:23:31,080 --> 01:23:39,160
with candles and skulls and boats of the wheels are made from thigh bones and covered with

685
01:23:39,160 --> 01:23:48,680
worm chute, pall or dried human skin. You know him when he's coming so to speak.

686
01:23:48,680 --> 01:24:07,880
Yes yes you do and this is over certainly the coach aspect the Kosh-i-davach, the aspect of the

687
01:24:07,880 --> 01:24:16,840
Dullahan is in my opinion something that began to really be developed in the 16th 17th centuries

688
01:24:16,840 --> 01:24:24,760
in Ireland and at the time would have been a contemporary retelling but the when you begin

689
01:24:24,760 --> 01:24:33,080
to wrap your head around the fact that the Dullahan is also considered to be the embodiment of

690
01:24:33,080 --> 01:24:44,040
Kromdor the Celtic god of death. Yes. This the gravitas of this being takes an extraordinary turn

691
01:24:44,040 --> 01:24:51,320
yes well in some ways he reminds me of the baron in Voodoo.

692
01:24:53,640 --> 01:25:00,760
Agreed agreed and because he is he's a lot similar

693
01:25:00,760 --> 01:25:13,080
to function a functions is the ferryman yes yes and you do have to wonder if the

694
01:25:14,040 --> 01:25:22,200
added elements with the coach and in sort of that very grotesque adornment

695
01:25:22,200 --> 01:25:31,560
really didn't come out of the black plague the black death certainly it's possible I think

696
01:25:31,560 --> 01:25:40,680
you know there there to me were very common to me it is an there there are interesting qualities to

697
01:25:40,680 --> 01:25:53,400
this because they're obviously by the 1600 1700s beginning places you know in not beginning places

698
01:25:53,400 --> 01:26:02,280
the the the English influence the British influence in in Ireland and in Dublin and

699
01:26:02,280 --> 01:26:12,120
waterford etc making these cities into at the time contemporary modern English cities with

700
01:26:12,120 --> 01:26:21,640
the trappings thereof and the carriages and the the death customs and all of that but although

701
01:26:21,640 --> 01:26:28,280
we do not have archaeological evidence of chariots in Ireland we do have an incredibly rich body of

702
01:26:28,280 --> 01:26:38,520
lore associated with war chariots horse-drawn wagons of sort that were associated with the

703
01:26:38,520 --> 01:26:48,760
great epic cycles and consequently by attachment associated with the gods and so the to me that

704
01:26:48,760 --> 01:26:58,840
it's interesting qualities that are all feeding into this of a great mythological the mythological

705
01:26:58,840 --> 01:27:15,000
embodiment of death and something on wheels yes yes agreed and ironically and of course it also

706
01:27:15,000 --> 01:27:23,400
the headlessness to me is also symbolic of the Celts more generally because

707
01:27:26,920 --> 01:27:38,520
they decapitate their enemies and veneration of the severed head yes the extraordinary

708
01:27:38,520 --> 01:27:49,000
focus on the on the severed head in Celtic and traditional Celtic belief structures that both as

709
01:27:49,000 --> 01:27:56,040
a as a as an act of war and then also a generation of one's ancestors that again speaks to the

710
01:27:56,040 --> 01:28:03,480
dual dual nature and the duality of the Celtic cosmology and I think now would be just a good

711
01:28:03,480 --> 01:28:11,400
time to insert just for a moment the ancient gods of the Celts in the British Isles as the

712
01:28:13,080 --> 01:28:22,200
overarching influence of Christianity spread those gods shifted in terms of the the people

713
01:28:22,200 --> 01:28:28,120
the the everyday people for example of Ireland we'll just speak with on Ireland specifically

714
01:28:28,120 --> 01:28:35,640
in this case the the people of Ireland adopted Christianity but they did not throw away the old

715
01:28:35,640 --> 01:28:43,640
gods the the old gods changed and they they are referred to as the Tuatha de Daman the the people

716
01:28:43,640 --> 01:28:56,040
of the goddess Danu they are referred to as the good people the fair folk the fey and they they are

717
01:28:56,040 --> 01:29:04,600
the the the lesser known Irish mythology of which we to a degree only have bits and pieces of

718
01:29:05,400 --> 01:29:17,000
through the cycles we have more than we think we have because the ancient gods are what later become

719
01:29:17,000 --> 01:29:27,720
the fairy tales yes in in in a large sense that's very true they it's just a matter of

720
01:29:28,520 --> 01:29:38,280
retelling in different ways and they are very much with us and they are very much with the the idea

721
01:29:38,280 --> 01:29:47,320
of the the headless phantom and that yes headless specter is with us in the Ozards as well it is in

722
01:29:47,320 --> 01:29:53,320
in many locations one just over here on highway 13 there's a there's an old legend of a of a

723
01:29:53,320 --> 01:30:00,200
of a headless man who walks old highway 13 but as was noted he walked highway 13 before they changed

724
01:30:00,200 --> 01:30:08,200
highway 13 so the the new grades in the road may have changed but they are still there and they

725
01:30:08,200 --> 01:30:12,760
meant that he went elsewhere or that he's walking in an area that isn't a road now

726
01:30:13,960 --> 01:30:16,440
exactly or or at least not visible from the road

727
01:30:19,080 --> 01:30:27,320
and and there's there's several reasons aside from just the settlers bringing lore

728
01:30:27,320 --> 01:30:37,800
um the Osage who were the dominant Native American tribe in in the region often

729
01:30:38,840 --> 01:30:49,480
decapitated their enemies um we're so used to western movies and tv giving us that scalping was

730
01:30:49,480 --> 01:30:59,080
the was the uh trophy of choice but not necessarily um and those age were want to

731
01:31:00,200 --> 01:31:09,560
leave heads in a pile as warnings as well so which works it which is worse but also very

732
01:31:11,400 --> 01:31:15,720
akin to ancient Celtic practices as we have been told

733
01:31:15,720 --> 01:31:22,200
oh it is it is which I really find rather endearing yeah

734
01:31:28,200 --> 01:31:31,240
okay remind me not to fall asleep absolutely

735
01:31:31,240 --> 01:31:40,680
simply oh fyi I'm creepier than I looked um

736
01:31:43,080 --> 01:31:49,960
speaking of my the momentum of my genetic memory um or ancestral memory it is

737
01:31:51,880 --> 01:32:00,120
oh but there is something about a pile of severed heads or a head on a pike that definitely gets

738
01:32:00,120 --> 01:32:06,280
one's attention uh and really sends a very clear message to one's opposition

739
01:32:08,040 --> 01:32:14,120
yes and in the Ozarks that that that has occurred various times but prominently again during the

740
01:32:14,120 --> 01:32:24,680
civil war um and not just by those fight Native Americans fighting um there were a number of

741
01:32:24,680 --> 01:32:37,800
soldiers on both sides that would decapitate um and um but um you know and there's so there's several

742
01:32:38,920 --> 01:32:48,520
stories of that there's the headless phantom that roams outside humansville um that is supposed to

743
01:32:48,520 --> 01:33:00,600
be of an unknown unidentified soldier um there is the headless phantom in Avila which

744
01:33:03,000 --> 01:33:08,360
whose story is much akin to the head on the pike on London Bridge as anything else

745
01:33:08,360 --> 01:33:21,720
um and in that circumstance the the town militia who they Avila was pro-union um although there were

746
01:33:21,720 --> 01:33:27,480
a number of slaveholders there they they were they advocated staying in the union and they

747
01:33:27,480 --> 01:33:34,120
uh they've been attacked so many times by bushwhackers that they um they formulated a plan to

748
01:33:34,120 --> 01:33:40,280
and protect the town that was offensive rather than defensive as was often used up to that point

749
01:33:40,920 --> 01:33:49,080
and ultimately their their their self-defense plan was adopted throughout Missouri during the war

750
01:33:50,280 --> 01:33:56,120
and basically they went out and hunted bushwhackers and in this particular instance

751
01:33:56,120 --> 01:34:03,480
they came across the decomposing body of a bushwhacker that apparently they had shot and not

752
01:34:03,480 --> 01:34:11,960
realized at some point and as a warning hung his head from either an apple tree or osage

753
01:34:12,600 --> 01:34:18,360
orange tree uh along the road entering town as a warning to other bushwhackers

754
01:34:19,480 --> 01:34:26,920
right that and uh you know a warning like that does send a very clear message

755
01:34:26,920 --> 01:34:37,800
it really does a rotting skull does tend to send a message and then i go oh go ahead

756
01:34:39,800 --> 01:34:47,720
i was going to say what you know um throughout the world and certainly and it's the time of halloween

757
01:34:47,720 --> 01:35:01,320
uh as well as dia de los muertos that the the image of the skull is just it is a incredibly powerful

758
01:35:03,480 --> 01:35:15,560
motif and it just it's obviously it speaks to our mortality it it's i suppose it's you know it's

759
01:35:15,560 --> 01:35:23,160
the the one part of our uh of our skeletal structure that most closely resembles us and life

760
01:35:26,200 --> 01:35:34,760
it there is something innately attracting but also repulsive and frightening and interesting

761
01:35:34,760 --> 01:35:45,800
and compelling all at once with the imagery of the skull very true and uh just the you know using

762
01:35:45,800 --> 01:35:55,480
the phrase imagery of the skull made me think of dead man's pond um in snow county where again

763
01:35:56,840 --> 01:36:03,720
townsfolk um ambushed uh bushwhackers who had stolen cattle after they had killed several

764
01:36:03,720 --> 01:36:14,040
men in town uh in galena missouri um and they had the bushwhackers encamped at the pond um that

765
01:36:14,040 --> 01:36:21,880
became known as dead man's pond and they slaughtered them to the last man and the story went that the

766
01:36:21,880 --> 01:36:34,200
bodies were rolled into the pond and over time skulls were you know basically uh would either

767
01:36:35,240 --> 01:36:42,360
or were dredged up but i always find it interesting i've yet to hear a rendering of the story

768
01:36:42,360 --> 01:36:48,680
that said other bones were found right it's always just the skulls

769
01:36:48,680 --> 01:36:55,240
it's the skull and which what makes you wonder if they if they were beheaded at the time

770
01:36:56,200 --> 01:37:03,400
well that is that does bring up a good question um or the skulls were just the most creepy and

771
01:37:03,400 --> 01:37:12,600
iconic and they managed to make it into the story but either way it is it is a powerful aspect and

772
01:37:12,600 --> 01:37:19,960
of course there's a lot of hauntings associated with dead man's pond yes and you know understandably so

773
01:37:20,680 --> 01:37:28,600
oh but but it does it does make you wonder uh certainly does have that headless um

774
01:37:29,160 --> 01:37:36,440
motif to the story almost to a fault um let's see

775
01:37:36,440 --> 01:37:44,120
let's see you can talk about vampires vampires are always fun

776
01:37:45,880 --> 01:37:53,640
unless before you're a victim of the vampires it's less fun now here's here is here's an aspect

777
01:37:53,640 --> 01:38:00,520
that i i do find really interesting well we can it's kind of i was going to say draw a line but

778
01:38:00,520 --> 01:38:08,280
it's it's more of a complex yarn diagram stretching from location to location and sometimes intersecting

779
01:38:08,920 --> 01:38:21,640
because the vampires vampire mythology vampire lore all of this has it is beyond monolithic

780
01:38:21,640 --> 01:38:29,800
in modern culture it is instantly recognizable in the 20th century and 20th and 20th and now

781
01:38:29,800 --> 01:38:40,840
21st century cinema it is just extraordinarily massive and so much so that certain names

782
01:38:41,640 --> 01:38:50,200
uh are are just associated with with vampire mythology even as a modern myth

783
01:38:52,040 --> 01:38:53,080
names like an rice

784
01:38:53,080 --> 01:39:03,720
uh lastot bello legosi um honestly christopher lee these are you know hammer core films

785
01:39:04,680 --> 01:39:11,560
uh all of this ties together i'm expressly not mentioning a couple but

786
01:39:13,080 --> 01:39:22,040
the the the progenitor of all of this is is bram stoker and bram is of course cited his

787
01:39:22,040 --> 01:39:30,680
cited his his sources with the romanian uh vlad the impaler as its origin and there's an enormous

788
01:39:30,680 --> 01:39:39,560
amount of focus on that but stoker was irish and irish and scottish folklore contain what although

789
01:39:39,560 --> 01:39:49,880
they're not called vampires contain a very rich lore of vampiric like fe or um you know vampiric

790
01:39:49,880 --> 01:39:55,720
death spirits that your spirits of the dead as opposed to spirits of the fe that

791
01:39:57,000 --> 01:40:02,920
in some cases are not that dissimilar from dear woman true very true

792
01:40:05,240 --> 01:40:14,120
had not thought of that but that's true of thinking of the dear do i i take it yeah the the

793
01:40:14,120 --> 01:40:22,680
there do and and um the avatach there's yeah there there's these

794
01:40:25,320 --> 01:40:34,120
uh well there's a couple um you know we've got there there are some claims that the avatach

795
01:40:34,840 --> 01:40:42,200
uh in in irish folklore quote unquote a chieftain dwarf who could not be killed he would come up from

796
01:40:42,200 --> 01:40:48,760
his grave every night um drink the blood of his enemies and no matter how many times he got killed

797
01:40:48,760 --> 01:40:55,960
he'd just show back up it's uh it's like a recurring nightmare uh he

798
01:40:58,600 --> 01:41:08,200
the only way to kill the avatach uh was with a sword made of you of you would and that is really

799
01:41:08,200 --> 01:41:15,960
interesting in and of itself obviously it's basically a wooden stake but the the you um for

800
01:41:15,960 --> 01:41:28,040
those of you who are confused it's y e u uh has an extraordinary history as uh as a magical free

801
01:41:28,040 --> 01:41:40,200
not dissimilar to the hawthorn true so i mean it's um so that magical power

802
01:41:42,440 --> 01:41:48,200
ostensibly would be what made using it different than another means of killing him

803
01:41:48,200 --> 01:41:58,440
so that he wasn't resurrected um but again it it just very similar to the idea of the wooden stake

804
01:41:58,440 --> 01:42:10,760
um and um that um also that he was buried upside down right he buried right down which um

805
01:42:10,760 --> 01:42:24,280
um often um in medieval graves um that they find evidence that someone was killed or thought to be

806
01:42:24,280 --> 01:42:33,560
a vampire one of the sort of precautions taken would often be to bury the person upside down

807
01:42:33,560 --> 01:42:44,280
yeah right right and going over to the derrick do uh there is that crossover with dear woman in

808
01:42:44,280 --> 01:42:54,360
this case this is a a young woman who is horribly abused by the the man that she is given to

809
01:42:54,360 --> 01:43:01,720
uh not the man that she wants to marry uh the man that her father forces her to marry he and

810
01:43:02,840 --> 01:43:11,480
when we're in and really now this is this is a very dark but interesting story to me obviously

811
01:43:11,480 --> 01:43:21,880
it speaks of um you know the some of the darkest aspects of domestic abuse but where we're that if

812
01:43:21,880 --> 01:43:28,680
you if you just uh strictly follow the lines of the story we're we're dealing with a um a rich

813
01:43:28,680 --> 01:43:37,880
aristocracy who takes a poor girl as his wife and then forces her to submit to ritualistic abuse

814
01:43:37,880 --> 01:43:43,560
because he's draining her blood and that is a common motif in that that resonates throughout

815
01:43:43,560 --> 01:43:51,480
the story because ultimately he kills her yes which again is a motif that is very similar to

816
01:43:51,480 --> 01:44:00,040
teeth that is used time and again in vampire fiction and movies etc it is uh but in this case

817
01:44:01,000 --> 01:44:04,600
uh and to me this really speaks of the

818
01:44:07,320 --> 01:44:18,680
um dark mischievousness and the turn of fate that you see in the uh in the tuatha de dame

819
01:44:18,680 --> 01:44:28,600
uh because it is certainly implied that the the the husband is uh is mortal he's doing

820
01:44:29,560 --> 01:44:36,600
horrible things but he's mortal uh his young wife dies he is already off with these other women

821
01:44:36,600 --> 01:44:42,840
she is buried in a pauper's grave nobody her family doesn't care because they got paid

822
01:44:42,840 --> 01:44:51,000
there's some really really horrible aspect to this story and then uh she

823
01:44:51,800 --> 01:44:59,880
returns as the dead can do and seeks her revenge first on her father and then on her husband

824
01:45:01,480 --> 01:45:07,960
Mm-hmm and then it's balanced with you know that um yes she she comes back with revenge but in part

825
01:45:07,960 --> 01:45:14,360
she comes back with revenge but in part of the telling of the story is ironically that her lost

826
01:45:14,360 --> 01:45:22,360
love actually is loyal to her visits her grave every day professes his love and praying for her

827
01:45:22,360 --> 01:45:30,600
return but that unfortunately is not what she responded to she responded to the revenge which

828
01:45:30,600 --> 01:45:39,080
of course delves into the darker aspects of vampire lore it does and there to me there's

829
01:45:39,080 --> 01:45:45,560
something very obviously there's there's a really satisfying aspect of vengeance and justice uh

830
01:45:45,560 --> 01:45:54,920
vigilante justice in essence in this uh in this case um there there is lore in the idea that if

831
01:45:54,920 --> 01:46:03,320
you don't want a person like this to come back you pile stones on their grave and there's a couple of

832
01:46:03,320 --> 01:46:12,200
different turns of this particular story one was that she's the first dead can do it and so they

833
01:46:12,200 --> 01:46:17,880
didn't know to pile stones on her grave now that does apply the possibility that this could be

834
01:46:17,880 --> 01:46:29,240
this could happen again with different people so that's creepy but there is also a twist in the fact

835
01:46:29,240 --> 01:46:38,520
that that they did pile the stones and her her lover removes the stones to allow her to return

836
01:46:38,520 --> 01:46:47,480
yes that um basically his love blinded him to the reality of what she had become yes

837
01:46:49,080 --> 01:46:52,280
and and then she forms an insatiable desire for blood

838
01:46:53,240 --> 01:47:02,840
yes and and then pretty much we are full-blown vampire lore um yes we are we we have arrived

839
01:47:02,840 --> 01:47:10,840
we have arrived and and also the fact that there's there's not really a a conclusion to the story

840
01:47:10,840 --> 01:47:19,400
after she uh seeks her revenge uh she enjoyed blood so much that she really just goes on an

841
01:47:19,400 --> 01:47:33,720
internable hunt yes and theoretically continued to this day exactly which again just is rife with

842
01:47:33,720 --> 01:47:44,440
modern vampire lore of the you know these eternal beings and uh existing basically forever um and so

843
01:47:44,440 --> 01:47:53,160
it does make you wonder if if nothing else that stoker didn't uh have the seeds of the idea from

844
01:47:53,160 --> 01:48:03,560
these tales and then of course finding vlad the impaler and romania just made it

845
01:48:03,560 --> 01:48:13,720
mysterious more mysterious for the english his english audience and i think in in in a way i think

846
01:48:14,760 --> 01:48:25,480
one reason that the that stoker's version has endured is because he used he did use real places

847
01:48:25,480 --> 01:48:34,280
he used elements of reality that i think became very intriguing for people because it made it feel

848
01:48:34,280 --> 01:48:41,240
like it's more plausible um and i think that's part of the genius of his telling and why it's

849
01:48:41,240 --> 01:48:49,240
still the standard i i very much concur with that because it is it does feel grounded in the reality

850
01:48:49,240 --> 01:48:58,440
of the age exactly and so um i i think it's very likely that these these stories were the initial

851
01:48:59,160 --> 01:49:06,600
uh impetus but um through research because he he spent years actually researching it before um

852
01:49:07,320 --> 01:49:13,800
and writing it it was like seven eight years so you know he found the perfect

853
01:49:13,800 --> 01:49:23,240
you know um combination of facts and lore to create the story um i think that makes me feel

854
01:49:23,240 --> 01:49:27,960
better about the amount of time that it takes for me to write a novel you and me both

855
01:49:32,520 --> 01:49:36,600
um as i have one city has seen

856
01:49:36,600 --> 01:49:46,200
uh that i've been working on for years um but uh again for our osart's connection there's

857
01:49:46,200 --> 01:49:54,120
vampire lore in the osarts um i mean there's even in the internet age you can find it related to

858
01:49:54,120 --> 01:50:00,040
springfield and supposedly in the tunnels of of jordan creek and downtown springfield

859
01:50:00,040 --> 01:50:09,320
um and there there certainly are credible firsthand accounts of odd things that go on there um of a

860
01:50:11,400 --> 01:50:21,400
either originalistic or at least an organized uh basis but and we've told us uh on on on a video

861
01:50:21,400 --> 01:50:30,280
in the past there there is a lore of a vampire uh buried in a cemetery and i believe phelps county

862
01:50:30,280 --> 01:50:37,800
uh that was a i believe a mine a coal miner and he was an albino which of course feeds him you know

863
01:50:37,800 --> 01:50:45,960
one of the urban legend motifs but he really was an albino and a miner and but the lore has grown up

864
01:50:45,960 --> 01:50:55,640
that he he was a vampire it has it has and there's i believe if memory serves that's the the the

865
01:50:58,600 --> 01:51:06,920
the cemetery with the cage yes there is a cage and um and all kinds of stories come up around

866
01:51:06,920 --> 01:51:17,400
those those kinds of graves that ultimately they serve two purposes one one was just to uh deter

867
01:51:17,400 --> 01:51:24,920
looters and the second was to um deter reanimators you know so that the body would be taken to you

868
01:51:24,920 --> 01:51:30,440
know medical school to be dissected we're looking at you professor medall

869
01:51:30,440 --> 01:51:39,560
oh yeah yeah and and the the grotesque nature of that bit of history when that uh the the remnants

870
01:51:39,560 --> 01:51:47,960
of that history get presented onto the internet without context it is very easy for individuals

871
01:51:47,960 --> 01:51:53,880
to erroneously jump to the conclusion oh my gosh the cage is there to keep somebody in it must be

872
01:51:53,880 --> 01:51:58,760
a witch's grave it must be a vampire's grave it must be this it must be that no it's there to keep

873
01:51:58,760 --> 01:52:09,640
looters out yeah to protect the grave yeah to simply protect the grave and sometimes that uh

874
01:52:09,640 --> 01:52:16,040
is a little disappointing to people because they really wanted it to be the thing and i think

875
01:52:16,040 --> 01:52:21,560
psychologically we we we see these things and we think we're the only one who's ever found it

876
01:52:21,560 --> 01:52:27,400
and we want ourselves to be the person to have discovered the mystery of the of the the vampire

877
01:52:27,400 --> 01:52:33,720
or you know whatever uh and i think we see something similar with the uh the obsession over

878
01:52:33,720 --> 01:52:42,280
purported witch's graves throughout the ozarks and agreed agreed and you get that you get that

879
01:52:42,280 --> 01:52:53,000
in a lot of places but um it i think it's just sort of that almost forbidden subject to deletion

880
01:52:53,000 --> 01:53:00,600
after on witches graves uh because usually the reason we identify a grave uh as a witch's grave

881
01:53:00,600 --> 01:53:15,400
is pre-mundane usually right right usually a bit of uh of inscription that to our uh modern eyes

882
01:53:15,400 --> 01:53:23,160
seems somehow mystical or we might think of it as a spell but in the in the 19th century was actually

883
01:53:23,160 --> 01:53:33,400
a very common uh victorian era inscription to invite the uh the cemetery goer the graveyard goer

884
01:53:34,280 --> 01:53:41,800
uh to be introspective and to contemplate building a better life now rather than the hereafter

885
01:53:41,800 --> 01:53:50,200
yes and and and that even the idea of inviting to do that seems a little a stance now but

886
01:53:51,080 --> 01:53:58,200
at the time people spent time in cemeteries uh had pitnets in cemeteries they were a place

887
01:53:58,200 --> 01:54:03,800
of introspection and reflection so i mean it would make it made perfect sense at the time

888
01:54:05,640 --> 01:54:08,280
and and a place to eat your fried chicken and let the kids play

889
01:54:08,280 --> 01:54:16,920
but that's right let's go visit grandma and have fried chicken yeah yeah and it it's

890
01:54:18,440 --> 01:54:22,920
in our incredibly modern world that we're so we just like to pat ourselves in the back that we're

891
01:54:22,920 --> 01:54:34,120
so um contextually developed we're you know don't realize that we've been heavily influenced by

892
01:54:34,120 --> 01:54:43,720
um you know 40 years of horror movies instead of a long and structural past of respect exactly

893
01:54:47,800 --> 01:54:54,520
you know one thing i want to touch on it that is the lowest stance but from from the lore but maybe

894
01:54:54,520 --> 01:55:09,880
not are um giant birds yes and flying humanoids um um you know uh i i'm quite fascinated by both

895
01:55:11,640 --> 01:55:18,120
yeah there apparently there there is uh and i i don't know a lot about in in the materials um

896
01:55:18,120 --> 01:55:26,840
um reference to tale out of basically texas cantexas and hale county missouri of giant birds

897
01:55:28,120 --> 01:55:31,240
the gigantesis

898
01:55:34,440 --> 01:55:44,840
um six foot birds um which seems to be a bit of a tall tail um but certainly there you know

899
01:55:44,840 --> 01:55:50,840
could have been a rather large bird and um i don't know if you see a

900
01:55:53,560 --> 01:56:01,320
vulture up close there they certainly can have a wingspan of that or more so um

901
01:56:01,320 --> 01:56:16,520
uh i found that interesting then the late 20th century go to it's a pterosaur um stories um yeah

902
01:56:17,800 --> 01:56:26,200
and i don't know i i wonder if the idea of the pterosaur

903
01:56:26,200 --> 01:56:32,440
is comes out of the fascination with dinosaurs which became very prevalent in mid 20th century

904
01:56:33,400 --> 01:56:44,120
or is it somehow a refashioning of phoenix um stories the phoenix stories or thunderbird more

905
01:56:45,160 --> 01:56:51,560
or thunderbird yeah uh there's a lot tying into this and of course the

906
01:56:51,560 --> 01:56:57,080
uh the lore about pterosaurs or pterodactyls is its own cryptid genre

907
01:56:59,080 --> 01:57:09,080
both here interestingly enough uh sightings in what is is interestingly our our uh

908
01:57:10,120 --> 01:57:17,480
you know specific parallel latitude that seems to be a long running stretch of weirdness

909
01:57:17,480 --> 01:57:30,040
the 38 parallel yes which runs right through the northern ozarts yes and they're from ufo sightings

910
01:57:30,040 --> 01:57:40,600
to bigfoot sightings to pterodactyl uh rumors to weird things and certainly there's the the tie-in

911
01:57:40,600 --> 01:57:50,360
uh with the with the uh native american lore of the thunderbird and uh and and i'm gonna throw the

912
01:57:51,240 --> 01:57:58,200
um the pious a bird in there as well i mean it's i think so there's some interesting tie-in what we

913
01:57:58,200 --> 01:58:10,840
do know is that uh the the the mississippian slash cahokian mound builder people did share ties with

914
01:58:11,320 --> 01:58:19,480
uh with middle american messo american central american peoples and so we can we can draw some

915
01:58:19,480 --> 01:58:32,440
comparisons there and certainly from uh thunderbird lore of uh of the great plains to uh the the

916
01:58:32,440 --> 01:58:40,600
feathered wing serpent ketsu koto uh to other messo american deities that were associated with

917
01:58:40,600 --> 01:58:49,000
the sky these sky gods sky animal motifs are extremely powerful and powerful enough that

918
01:58:49,320 --> 01:58:55,800
whether we understand the ancient culture or not they do resonate with us

919
01:58:57,080 --> 01:59:05,080
on a on a on a very visceral level well i i i think so i mean in in

920
01:59:05,080 --> 01:59:10,440
you mentioned the pious a bird um at the mississippi and and you know just

921
01:59:12,760 --> 01:59:24,840
just contemplating um what all happened for them to put the painting on the cliff

922
01:59:24,840 --> 01:59:34,040
it that just that process resonates so it does make you wonder um what it is about the about this

923
01:59:34,040 --> 01:59:39,720
motif other than it's kind of like the big cats i mean it's something very i mean very out of the

924
01:59:39,720 --> 01:59:49,240
ordinary potentially very dangerous could pick you up and fly off and you know you know you know

925
01:59:49,240 --> 02:00:01,880
it's a very dangerous could pick you up and fly off with you a kind of danger that is totally

926
02:00:02,440 --> 02:00:11,480
unsettling it is and and i would say archetypal as well yes but i find it also interesting that

927
02:00:11,480 --> 02:00:18,760
it's kind of morphed and and again it kind of goes not not entirely just with the internet age

928
02:00:18,760 --> 02:00:24,480
but with the

929
02:00:24,480 --> 02:00:34,200
20 to 30 years it we've developed a two things one is a motif of now it's not just a huge bird but a

930
02:00:34,200 --> 02:00:44,600
flying humanoid um and you started getting these accounts actually over large cities

931
02:00:44,600 --> 02:00:53,800
to begin with um and chicago comes to mind chicago may have been one of the first places but you had

932
02:00:53,800 --> 02:01:03,400
a lot of them where people would spot what looked like a flying man um sometimes with wings sometimes

933
02:01:03,400 --> 02:01:13,960
not um and then um there there have been accounts even in kansas to the kansas city area the st louis

934
02:01:13,960 --> 02:01:21,320
area we're getting you know again we're kind of kind of coming down towards the 38th parallel

935
02:01:22,760 --> 02:01:31,000
there's there's been accounts actually one account that i heard but i've never been able to track

936
02:01:31,000 --> 02:01:36,680
down the original source supposedly out of the joplin area there's one out of the branson area

937
02:01:36,680 --> 02:01:48,120
um and um i just find it interesting and in um particularly the ones that were there weaved

938
02:01:48,120 --> 02:02:00,680
um the the other prong of this is sort of the mothman um motif which starts in the 60s at pleasant

939
02:02:00,680 --> 02:02:11,960
uh bleson um west virginia and that has you know sort of a definite origin story um but

940
02:02:14,680 --> 02:02:25,400
it's not necessarily purely humanoid um but similar type of experience

941
02:02:25,400 --> 02:02:34,280
and that also that type of creature has been reported elsewhere as well um

942
02:02:36,760 --> 02:02:44,120
i kind of wonder are are our encounters with whatever large flying things are out there

943
02:02:44,120 --> 02:02:59,000
potentially um now being clouded by our media-driven idea of monsters i would say yes i think that is a

944
02:02:59,000 --> 02:03:10,760
very i think that's a fair uh conjecture that that certainly the um the the power

945
02:03:10,760 --> 02:03:21,640
the power of mothman has has reached across the nation uh if not further than that and reached

946
02:03:21,640 --> 02:03:31,480
a long ways from 1966 and pleasant point west virginia that at the same time that doesn't you

947
02:03:31,480 --> 02:03:37,800
know the the existence of the the fact that we as human beings are able to absorb elements of pop

948
02:03:37,800 --> 02:03:44,200
culture and then in some way shape or form inadvertently reconstitute it in our own fiction

949
02:03:45,160 --> 02:03:50,920
um and sometimes believe our own fiction does not take away from the reality that some of this

950
02:03:50,920 --> 02:04:00,440
phenomena also appears to be occurring separately yes i mean um i i think it's you know potentially

951
02:04:00,440 --> 02:04:07,400
fair to say that you know some of these at least maybe something large in the sky whatever it is

952
02:04:11,320 --> 02:04:18,280
and as far as i know california condors haven't migrated to the middle of the continent so

953
02:04:18,280 --> 02:04:27,000
i'm not sure that we know of uh it's just it is odd to say the least the um the the the story from

954
02:04:27,000 --> 02:04:34,600
uh a flying humanoid outside of branson for me was particularly fascinating it's it's documented

955
02:04:34,600 --> 02:04:42,040
on ultimate unexplained.com and what what especially caught my eye is that the individuals

956
02:04:42,040 --> 02:04:48,120
who say that they saw this um their their videos on youtube it was featured on destination america

957
02:04:48,600 --> 02:04:54,840
and as they tell that they journeyed into the woods near turkey creek outside of branson which

958
02:04:54,840 --> 02:05:03,080
which is a mile from my house right and ironically ironically i've heard the same

959
02:05:03,080 --> 02:05:09,000
version of this story happening supposedly happening at turkey creek in joplin

960
02:05:12,200 --> 02:05:16,520
there's now for people who are unfamiliar there are a number of turkey creeks in the ozards

961
02:05:16,520 --> 02:05:24,520
yes so it does so you know it makes you wonder is it the same event being told is happening in

962
02:05:24,520 --> 02:05:37,240
other places or not um i don't know and i don't either um just and this is probably based just on

963
02:05:37,240 --> 02:05:45,400
our time this is probably our last one to to cover for this episode but um the the article mentions

964
02:05:45,400 --> 02:05:52,680
um several individuals uh they sharing that they went into the woods near turkey creek

965
02:05:53,640 --> 02:05:59,640
um i i love the description it's a stream in the missouri ozarks that extends down into arkansas

966
02:06:00,440 --> 02:06:05,560
uh the guys found a strange cave and shortly afterward they heard sounds in the trees it was

967
02:06:05,560 --> 02:06:10,200
a whooshing sound that brought them face to face with a winged creature that looked half human half

968
02:06:10,200 --> 02:06:15,000
bird one man said it sounded almost like a freight train and of course it did and it was kind of

969
02:06:15,000 --> 02:06:21,160
it was coming straight at them as they fled the creature also relented interesting choice of

970
02:06:21,160 --> 02:06:29,640
words uh and uh if you check out the the article itself there's even a youtube video reenacting

971
02:06:29,640 --> 02:06:39,160
their experience which i watched you watched i i did not i i did get that part it's only a few

972
02:06:39,160 --> 02:06:45,400
minutes long i i recommend watching it and uh interestingly enough the the individuals playing

973
02:06:46,120 --> 02:06:50,920
the the people in the article are actually the people in the article playing themselves

974
02:06:50,920 --> 02:06:58,760
reenacting all of it interesting yes the play is the thing so

975
02:07:01,640 --> 02:07:02,280
it's uh

976
02:07:02,280 --> 02:07:10,520
um i i'm i am personally fascinated i'm on one hand i find the article this particular bit of

977
02:07:10,520 --> 02:07:15,080
information really amusing because it's in my own backyard and i guarantee you you could pull

978
02:07:15,080 --> 02:07:21,800
pretty much everybody other than me after this afternoon uh in uh the the turkey creek community

979
02:07:21,800 --> 02:07:29,880
and nobody would know what we're talking about that's and that's probably accurate um you know

980
02:07:29,880 --> 02:07:34,040
and but here's my theory i think someone has a jet pack

981
02:07:36,680 --> 02:07:46,280
and and and and they they're playing france and you know apparently all over southern missouri and

982
02:07:46,840 --> 02:07:53,000
and i've heard this version a similar version you know i became seary in st louis so someone's

983
02:07:53,000 --> 02:08:02,760
getting around with a jet pack is is my personal theory um and i want one but uh i did two uh with

984
02:08:02,760 --> 02:08:08,360
one caveat and that is that i get a bird suit to go with it someone might shoot you

985
02:08:13,080 --> 02:08:14,440
and probably for good reason

986
02:08:14,440 --> 02:08:22,440
well that that is a dive into some of the monster lord and the irony there is that there's quite a

987
02:08:22,440 --> 02:08:31,400
bit more um yes there is but i'm i propose i i'm proposing a uh a part two a little bit later in

988
02:08:31,400 --> 02:08:44,520
the uh in the season i i think i think that i think we can definitely do that um in the meantime

989
02:08:44,520 --> 02:08:49,560
don't forget to check out upcoming events and merchandise at darkosarts.com and paranormal

990
02:08:49,560 --> 02:08:57,480
science lab.com and stay tuned for an announcement on darkosarts.com for something coming soon

991
02:08:57,480 --> 02:09:02,600
thank you again to always buying books and beard engine brewing company for helping to bring the

992
02:09:02,600 --> 02:09:09,640
darkosarts to everyone on the next episode we are going to be discussing seances and spiritualism

993
02:09:09,640 --> 02:09:15,960
catch the darkosarts podcast on Branson the podcast network apple podcast spotify amazon music

994
02:09:15,960 --> 02:09:22,600
google podcast substack or just about any podcast platform thank you everyone and remember

995
02:09:22,600 --> 02:09:27,720
there are no easy answers in the darkosarts