Hey everybody, this is Joshua Heston.
And I'm Lisa Martin.
And this is the Dark Ozarks on the Branson Podcast Network.
We're an exploration of everything that's dark in history, mysteries, the paranormal,
and everything else.
We explore the noir, the unknown, cryptozoology, UFOs, paranormal, and all the dark stuff that
happens in the Ozarks.
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well as our YouTube channel, Dark Ozarks.
We'll leave no stone unturned to bring you the dark history, mysteries, and legends of
the Ozarks.
Welcome to the Dark Ozarks.
We are discussing monsters.
From the British Isles to the Ozarks, monsters from the Celtic past are roaming around the
21st century.
We will get back to that in a minute.
But first, we want to remind you that the Dark Ozarks podcast is now available on Branson
Podcast Network, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, Google Podcasts, Substack, or
about any other podcast platform.
So what monsters would the Celts recognize in today's Ozarks?
I think there's a really good chance they would recognize a lot of them, from the old
gods to mischievous supernatural beasts to monsters of a more mortal kind.
And there are a few familiar faces right here in the Ozarks.
And yeah, much to my dismay.
We're looking at you, Haller.
We will return to what might be hiding in the dark or under your bed.
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Tell Nate and Tiff that we sent you.
We have monsters.
Monsters.
Yes.
That is, it is, obviously it's an exciting, it's a fun subject.
The Ozarks have an interesting number of monsters and an interesting number of those monsters
do appear to have ties back to the old world.
I'm not sure where exactly we want to start.
There's a lot to play with in our compendium of critters.
Well, I mean, we just got through St. Patrick's Day, so perhaps we start with leprechauns.
The thing that really jumps out to me besides the Lucky Charms cereal, which I just had
some, that was how I celebrated my St. Patty's Day.
I had Lucky Charms cereal.
There you go.
But I think that the motif, I'm going to refer to it as a motif initially before we dig into
the actual lore, but the motif of the Irish leprechaun is likely the most accessible idea
for pop culture and for everyday people who are not familiar with Irish folklore or Irish
mythology or the larger Celtic mindset.
And honestly, we have the cereal to thank for that.
We all grew up with the Lucky Charms leprechaun is a back door into eating some sort of extremely
strange processed grain cereal with small dehydrated marshmallows that really bears
no resemblance to anything Irish, but it's still the idea.
Leprechauns guard the pot of gold.
They're tricky, quote unquote mischievous.
And they're also interesting because they clearly have fairy qualities, but on the upside,
even the caricatures of leprechauns do not fit the Tinkerbell stereotype.
The leprechaun is male.
He's quirky.
He acts very differently than the classic idea of fairies.
And yet he has these weird magical powers, which clearly are fae.
So I think even in just the subconscious and just in the popular culture mindset as well,
there is a hint of getting our minds shifted around the magical fae, of which Ireland,
Scotland, the Celtic subcultures and the Celtic cultures that ultimately influenced the Appalachian
folklore and the Ozarks folklore.
It's being hinted at.
Yes.
And something a lot of people probably aren't aware of is that going back into the lore,
it's not as clear whether the leprechaun is the mischievous but rather harmless creature
or whether there's more of a malevolent side to him.
Oh, go ahead.
Oh, just going to say that's very appropriate when you begin to play in the pantheon of
Irish mythology is that these beings are extremely ambiguous in their presentation.
And sometimes they are malicious and you don't really ever know which one you're going to
get.
Very true.
And I guess a side note too is that a lot of people would associate with the leprechaun
the phrase luck of the Irish, mainly from advertising and so forth.
That actually has nothing to do with the Irish lore and actually comes out of the West California
and it was actually kind of an insult that the Irish immigrants usually were down on
their luck, etc.
So having the luck of the Irish kind of meant you were down and out and not that you really
were lucky or that the friendly elf brought luck.
Very, very true.
Now there's an interesting side that I want to jump into because it does have a tie to
some of our reports in the Ozarks.
Currently we can't disclose location, source, etc. but it is a first person source of an
individual who saw not quote unquote a leprechaun but in the old world there is an entire sub
category of supernatural beings that appear as old men.
Yes.
And appear as small old men.
And if you look at the reports and I think I find it really interesting because we have
folklore on this subject that goes back hundreds and hundreds of years and yet we relegate
that into the category of fairy tale, folklore, bedtime story.
What did someone imagine might be cool or creepy or interesting to put in their story?
Let's have a little old magic man who's literally little like anywhere from a few inches tall
to just maybe a foot or two tall.
But clearly not what we would think of as a small person.
This is differently proportioned typically with and also very notably appearing old.
Now there are they that appear radiant and beautiful and ageless.
Think Galadriel from Lord of the Rings.
But then this is clearly very different and sometimes they're often in particularly in
English and Scottish lore.
They are oftentimes referred to as elves as an elf man and sometimes as an elf woman.
I remember one report referencing being on a hillside and just having the sense that
everything changed and couldn't quite describe how or explain how it changed but they simply
knew it had changed.
And they saw this couple.
It was a diminutive elderly couple dressed in strange clothes studying him and then they
were gone.
And oftentimes they are they're quizzical.
They seem to be very curious.
They seem to have some sort of power and that also seems to be the experience that many
times when someone encounters something of this nature they know they're in the presence
of a being that has some sort of gravitas and some sort of power that is otherworldly.
It's very oftentimes unsettling in the rare instances that it occurs.
And we had I know we can't disclose a lot about it because it's still very private but
at least one report of an individual seeing one of these beings in the Ozarks when they
least expected.
Yes.
And so and I think since we can't give out too much I think it's important to note that
these things are not just relegated to centuries old lore and plans that these kind of experiences
do happen actually around the world in this day and really with pretty much all of the
types of monsters that we're going to talk about today.
Yes.
And I suppose the leprechaun might or the little people or whatever you want to call
it might take issue with us putting in the monster category but it is an otherworldly
and out of place experience.
And as is noted all we can really say on this particular report is it is credible.
Yes.
And that you guys get to take our word for it.
But it is and there are and we've talked about this at length in a couple of other episodes
but a number of First Nation peoples the Cherokee combined have long histories of interacting
with beings of this sort.
And it is a good lead in and it is also very mind bending I think if you try to logic it
out because these these beings these individuals whatever it is that they are they are corporeal
there they're not a ghost there they're not a phantom they leave footprints they they
walk through dirt and they they walk through in the case of the boot prints in my grandfather's
garage lately boot prints have no boot prints in the sawdust they sometimes interact they
seem very human like in some categories in terms of of experiencing human like emotions
and curiosity and interest sometimes appearing to be afraid sometimes very much not appearing
to be afraid and yet they exist slightly out of out of shift with time.
Yes.
And so a little in column A a little in column B that something of the other realm of something
supernatural as well as something physical and tied at least part of the time tied to
the physical world.
And something that is also notable that I find very fascinating but also a little bit
unsettling they they seem to in some way be tied to a type of time or place often when
someone reports seeing one seeing one of these people they appeared they're described as
having very human like clothing only a very old fashion.
Yes, like out of time.
Yes.
And almost like seeing someone in period clothing but in miniature.
And there is additionally a strange obsession with shoes.
Yes, yes known to steal steal shoes replace them make new ones.
Lots of lots of we can do probably an entire episode on European shoe lore but it is very
eye opening when you begin to collect and sometimes repeat first person credible first
person stories of this nature.
It really begins to shift one's perspective or about not only just folklore but about
fairy tales in general.
Begins that just the the shifting process and for better or for worse it really begins
to change the way that you look at the world around you.
It's true and actually I was just thinking as you were talking about the shoe or actually
not very far from my house there is a telephone wire that goes across the street that as long
as I can remember years and years and years, someone has always tied two shoes together
and thrown over that wire, and it's not the same shoes and it's always a new looking pair
of shoes.
They they never get very old.
And I chuckled to myself before it I'm wondering if that is a warning off or offering to them.
I'm not sure which.
Or very.
It would be interesting if if some of the more modern practical jokes urban legends
and customs not only have a basis in more ancient lore but in some cases might actually
act as sacrificial offerings.
Yeah I've always I've wondered about this because it goes back decades.
Always in the same spot.
And so someone someone keeps sacrificing shoes.
There's a there's a there's a leprechaun esque entity.
And on our notes it's way at the back on page 38.
But I want to get your thoughts on the red cap primarily because he appears to be Scottish.
And as as as appropriately holds with supernatural beings of Scottish lore.
Everything and we do mean everything will try to kill you.
Yes, yes, it's kind of like Australia.
It is.
It really is.
Only only colder.
And I'm good.
I really am.
Great tea.
Good whiskey.
Excellent shortbread.
We are known for a few things.
Yes, yes.
And but I.
I find it I find it interesting you know the the red cap is is referred to as a murderous
goblin.
Yes.
Well and the red cap is because he soaks his cap in the blood of victims.
I mean that's cheery.
And you know he's described with prominent teeth, skinny fingers, talons like eagles,
fiery red eyes.
You know all these things to be perfectly honest it evokes vampire lore to me.
That's a good point.
In the kitchen.
And but then he has some traits that are almost like a dragon lore.
I mean inhabits ruined castles.
And it just oh and then of course he can be driven away with the scripture or brandishing
a crucifix and will vanish into flames.
I mean if that doesn't evoke Brom Stoker I don't know what does.
That is very true.
And that's another thing is we are beginning to delve into Celtic beings and beasties that
there isn't an innate shape shifter quality about many of these beings in terms of how
they manifest themselves.
They could appear short they could appear tall they could appear giants they could appear
as tiny winged beings.
And for all we know it might be manifestations of the same thing.
Exactly and a parallel a modern parallel would be actually in Ghost Honey with shadow men
particularly and apparitions to a degree anyway.
A lot of lore as well as a lot of people encountering entities now in real time will discuss that
either their change their formal change from one time to another or during an experience
or that their form will be exaggerated.
The shadow men are a good example that often they appear extremely tall taller than human
form.
And no one really knows why.
And and actually at the John White House in Joplin there's video that was caught of a
shadow man walking through the parlor and down the hallway and where he comes it where
the top of the shadow man comes in relation to the doorways measuring it would put him
at just about nine feet tall.
Wow.
So we don't call the monsters and or these kind of not necessarily in the same sense
of these grotesque characters and grotesque in the classical sense of the word but we
still talk about that same kind of behavior and appearance shifting in ways that we would
not associate with traditional lore.
Agreed on that.
And in that regard it's it's interesting there there are some very corporeal shape shifting
stories and lore and some of our beasties tonight will will will cross over into that
realm but in others it is not uncorporeal in the sense that these beings seem to exist
only peripherally associated with our dimension and run and and can and do manifest themselves
in very strange ways.
In some cases as you mentioned elongated in a way that honestly it's easy to find very
unsettling.
Not necessarily appear at the time in the manner they did at death but instead maybe
a younger version of themselves or a stylized version.
So this notion of shifting appearance comes through in various ways in a lot of different
aspects of these things.
But I think I think the red cap where the leprechaun could be debated about is a is
he a true monster.
I think red cap fits more square in that in that category and he's referred to as the
goblin but I mean in some ways you know it it could be a type of fae it could be almost
a vampire or or just a shapeshifter changeling.
It to me is fascinating because we do there there is a great deal of ambiguity associated
with the the nature of of many of these are they and of course we we ask ourselves are
they good are they bad are they.
And for individuals and I know and it's easy to get focused on the you know the box with
the cereal box with the leprechaun on it go oh that's funny.
But you and I have both had experiences where say an individual has asked us for to come
in for an investigation etc.
Perhaps for poltergeist activity for odd things happening and they're genuinely scared and
they're like what is here is it good is it bad.
It does it does it mean us harm and so you shift a little bit into that perspective and
those questions have resonated probably for all of for as long as human beings have been
interacting with phenomena that appears sentient sometimes corporeal sometimes non-corporeal
and we're wondering is it aware of us does it like us does it not like us does it mean
us ill will is it there for positive reasons does it just not care.
These are these are genuine questions that we have people ask us so it's for me even
though it's easy to sometimes dismiss you know all that's a fairytale that's funny the
the human need for answers when you're being presented with this sort of thing is very
real and I respect that.
Yes definitely I agree something that I just recalled here too with red cap is that which
is kind of interesting with that notion of talking about people asking for help is that
he was believed they're believed to have been basically a red cap at any ruined tower.
So that basically one of one of these beings would be at any abandoned ruined castle or
tower which kind of opens the possibility of the the urban explorer going into the abandoned
house the abandoned you know mansion and having a less than friendly encounter with something
is it a little more universal that there is a red cap kind of entity at abandoned abandoned
places or abandoned buildings.
I think that's a really interesting observation and it really does begin to shift one's perspective
a little bit and this is this began really when you know I started I started the process
of opening myself up to the potentiality of for example the presence of elementals the
idea that that some hauntings and some sentient hauntings aren't ghosts.
Right and that is very much in my experience a possibility and I think I've encountered
a few of those where yes you're dealing with a sentient presence but it's not human never
was but we're not talking of you know the evil you know demonic sort it's more related
to place and that would make sense to me.
Another interesting aspect of red cap is that he can have magical powers just flat amped
reading as written by none other than Mr. Walter Scott in the ministral stroze of the
Scottish border he reports a ballad that originally was written by John Layton called Lord Solace
in which red cap grants his master safety against weapons and lives in a chest secured
by three strong padlocks which almost gives it a genie in the bottle quality.
It does it does there there is the playing with fire aspect of that as well the idea
of the conjuring on a leash that often does not turn out so well.
Exactly exactly so I mean red cap could literally be one of those that is hard to put in a box
that he is it spirit is it they is it vampires a shapeshifter is it magical it may be yes.
And I'm going to I want your opinion on this a certain aspect of red cap lore may have
also been colored by English chroniclers attempting to sortie into an inhospitable Scotland and
getting killed.
Well I mean I mean that's that's possible although the lore seems to be Scottish itself
but I could certainly see the English kind of buying all into it and yet you know yet
these horrible things as almost to engender sympathy for their for their losses I mean
it's possible and it or at least be spun as far as perhaps red cap represents fighting
the Scots period.
Very very true and with a with a with a reputation like that certainly it's good psychological
warfare on the side of the Scots to to promote that.
That's true that's true.
I wanted to just also on page 39 I wanted to go into just a little bit about Vargas.
I find the Vargas really really powerful and fascinating.
And with I would say dread ties to the Ozarks.
That I guess jumped out to me.
Yeah I think first of all should we say with with red cap I mean there are there are things
that are experienced in the Ozarks that have qualities that are incorporated into red caps
such as the appearance and and and that kind of thing.
And there there are cases that seem to be thought form etc.
I mean if you want to get literal with it being driven away by scripture and the crucifix
you know the Etzer's case happened here.
I mean so there are so many things that different stories that could be tied to that but Vargas
I think definitely can.
One hundred percent and the the Vargas is northern English particularly Yorkshire folklore
of what is described as a goblin dog.
A monstrous goblin dog and anybody anything practically would recognize this is this is
a great spectral hound.
But it in the case of the Yorkshire lore it is is quite specific and it does begin to
cross those it existed in intersection between ghost, omen, goblin, elf.
There's there's a lot it's a lot of things at once.
Yes and in an interesting note that on the northern English side Vargas basically is the
beginnings of the word ghost.
Correct.
And actually then a hybrid with that with the German you end up with things like poltergeist
etc.
So this is sort of the or actually the origin word of for ghost that we're so familiar with.
Now on the on the Scottish side it was booger for bogart.
Bogart was the ghost.
And for folks here in the Ozarks or in North America etc. who are not terribly familiar
with York and the city of York and Yorkshire we're talking about a an area in northeast
England near the Scottish near Scotland obviously and during up until well the from about I'm
going to spitball here but beginning with the Viking invasions in around 8900 it was
a Norse kingdom.
Yes it turned into.
And immediately prior to the Battle of Hastings it was a Norse kingdom until King Henry and
the English army defeated the Vikings and then sustained a two week force march from
Yorkshire to the south of England just in time to lose the Battle of Hastings to William
the conqueror.
Yes.
And that marches is attributed to a factor in the battle.
It is because they were worn out when they got there and had in the the the the reality
was that they had just sustained an extraordinary victory in terms of defeating the Norse and
York and even to this day in terms of you know influence Nordic influence or Viking
influence in the way that the English language is used the way that the Yorkshire dialect
developed and and many elements of the history are are heavily influenced in that in that
particular region.
And so as a result of that I find it really interesting and I wonder how much the bar
guests may also have been influenced by the Norse and specifically Viking lore as well
as you know it tales that of which we might be unfamiliar but it reminds me of the you
know Odin's wild hunt.
It reminds me of Fenrir and especially notable in warrior cultures shifting away from from
some of the later years of peasant cultures being impacted by plague but instead warrior
cultures who were surrounded by and you know constantly exposed to the reality of death.
The idea of a death omen seems to be particularly appropriate.
Yes and that that certainly comes out in the Ozarts but and even in some of the incarnations
of the stories from Yorkshire that you see that there's a legend of the Perler's gill
where a man ventures forth to the horrid gill of the limestone hill in order to summon and
confront the bar guests in an act of ritual magic.
And so basically something that you know a beast that apparently they felt needed to
be dealt with that harshly.
The discovered soon.
With human marks.
He did not have the mojo he was hoping he had.
No and there's also a story of the bar guests entering the city of York occasionally and
it preys on lone travelers.
And there's other places in the area bearing its name associated with with it.
And then in the 1870s there's a story of a shape shifting bar guest who said to live
near Darlington and said to take the form of a headless man who would vanish in flames.
A headless lady a white cat a rabbit a dog or a black dog.
And you know this is really kind of getting two tales in the Ozarts of what are commonly
called burger dogs but definitely a lot of similarity.
And of course burger dogs are also known as Scottish shore and often in the Ozarts as
with the bar guests they can be omens of death.
And in the stories here there are quite a few that come out of the Civil War of omens
of death with the with the phantom dog or phantom hog that can also be headless.
It can end in the in the aspect of the death omen.
It does seem to have some sort of incredible power.
It does and certainly at least during and I imagine in Yorkshire too that the idea of
the death omen probably took root during some of the battles.
I mean if you're not familiar you had battles going back to the Norse invasions you had
with the Normans you the war of the roses.
You know York saw a lot of war and sacking including by the the Scots during the fight
for independence in the early 1300s.
So time and again it's not surprising that they would have death omen stories but and
in the Ozarts that kind of came out pretty much the same way during the Civil War soldiers
would say that seeing a phantom hound or hog and they would be described as larger than
natural often headless and if it was headless it was even more ominous as a death omen that
they would die in battle and it happened enough that it was given credence.
There's several things that really come to mind on these subjects.
One and of course we're to a degree we're contributing to this pop culture milieu with
our own publications online but I watch a lot of videos on this subject as you know
because I send them to you.
I love it.
I love the genre.
I love the interest.
I love digging into the things.
But something that I have really noted in the proliferation of this information and
say the past 15 years is that there is a often because of the nature of the internet.
Now we were fortunate enough to be able to do long format and dig into these things and
I love long format podcasts across the board but many of the things that we have on the
internet if it's an article it's often 1200 words or less if it's a sometimes it's just
a short paragraph and you scroll through images oftentimes if it's a video it's introductory
videos 10 minutes long the top 10 fill in the blank you know so devoting about one minute
oftentimes with some fun unique contemporary graphics contemporary images sometimes AI
art which is a little odd not typically a fan of that but this sort of cottage industry
of lore internet lore or lore that is being presented on the internet that's about a million
miles wide and about an inch thick and there's there it isn't I don't I'm not saying that
it's meaning to but one of the end results is it gives the impression of superficiality
it gives the impression that there's little interesting tidbits but you're not getting
the sense of this incredibly rich tapestry of history when we're talking about the bar
guests when we're talking about the red cap we are of course contemplating the possibility
of deep paranormal realities first of all and then and and individuals experiences but
beyond that we are we're talking as you noted in in Yorkshire and its relationship to the
bar guests and how history in Yorkshire may may have contributed or in some cases manifested
this death omen that we're talking about a tragic and compelling tapestry of human experience
that is easily 1500 if not 2000 if not ultimately perhaps even 3000 years old generation after
generation having these incredible and extraordinary and heartbreaking and devastating experiences
of death and loss and attempt to regain territory attempt to take territory the individuals
caught in the in the the the in between spaces of all of that and it's very difficult to
convey that in a 10 minute video it really is in in the the flip side is it can also
give the sense that that that really it's either superficial or you you now have the
compendium of knowledge yes and in neither is is accurate and thought that just kind
of came to mind is and what your thought on it the the bar guest is an example you know
we're getting into territory monsters that are at least representative of animals and
in the Ozarks particularly early on the the use of monsters as you know animals as quote
monsters so to speak was really put to use in forming the image of the Ozarks and particularly
the oz Arkansas Ozarks I think that's fast yeah what were your thoughts on on that and
and well I think that there is something really powerful we we erroneously refer to North
America as the new world that that's not accurate and I believe that many of the of the first
settlers to cross the Mississippi and come into Arkansas to come into Missouri to come
into the Ozarks were presented with a certainly if they were able and willing to listen they
were presented with that tapestry they were presented with that richness of depth of thousands
of years of reality thousands of years of story of a type of narrative that was told
if not told to them in the tongues of First Nation peoples it was told to them in the
earth it was told to them in the trees it was told to them in the water that there were
things here there were there was a past here that much like even in a more grand way much
like the Celts having this extraordinary past but no written word to write it down the first
white settlers to come into the Ozarks were observing the realities of this extraordinary
past but without any books there wasn't there was no libraries there were there were no
books in some cases there were barely any people other than Osage raiding parties to
to to say anything about this space but we know that there were thousands of years of
individuals living and dying with their with their own unique cultures and stories in these
lands and we don't know those we don't know the words but I think about the settlers coming
into these spaces into the into the spaces where back in those days you would have had
a million stars visible at night over you you would have had old growth the the original
forests which in many cases were pine these these grand stands of timber the likes of
which it's very difficult for us to wrap our heads around and the depth of stories that
were whispered in in the roots and the water and the trees and the stone that said there
were also those stories that were being embodied and encapsulated by animals beasts that beasties
that in some cases for some of our our early American forebears were of a type that had
not been encountered before and were were very terrifying in some cases you you think
about especially early English colonists coming into the New World and and coming from from
England which certainly with its centuries of war and etc. or you know and the issue
certainly had its its own set of of complex dangers but coming into a land that had for
example rattlesnakes cottonmouths you get into a bit further south alligators you get
into you know animals like bison you get into bears there there's a mass compendium of
animals that honestly we take for granted we're not that freaked out by because we're
accustomed to them but these were in many cases alien beings for the for the people
who were first coming into the region from Europe and that in and of itself just engenders
a sense of fear a sense of wonder possibly a sense of majesty certainly a sense of introspection
and also a sense of how the heck do I survive this because there is no infrastructure to
back me up if anything goes wrong.
Right and then and then frankly the writers kind of reinforced that and and we don't think
about that as as far as how these kind of lore stories get going but in the you know
in the first half of the 1800s particularly 1830s to 1860s popular broadsheets magazine
so to speak of the time that we would equate to you know our favorite tv shows today probably
capitalized on the ruggedness of the area and these kind of stories and the leading
sort of sport sporting and hunting magazine of the day was actually the the spirit of
the times and it was actually written by a fella.
He was a newspaper man and lawyer from Batesville Arkansas which is kind of ironic because it
was the most popular such magazine in the country written in Arkansas and he capitalized
on the image of the wilderness and the beasties in Arkansas and his name was Pete Whetstone
and they he portrayed the area so well in that way that people avoided settling there
for a longer period of time and then another fella Thomas Thorpe he was a from Louisiana
he wrote a story the the bed bear of Arkansas and that story basically went viral as almost
fan fiction of of Whetstone's and basically portrayed the the large hunting story about
the largest bear that ever lived being in Arkansas and they actually credit these kinds
of stories with people settling in Arkansas later than surrounding states so it's kind
of interesting how those things happen and so you still have wild animal lore you know
hogs bears mountain lions you get a lot of that that really I think comes back from from
this kind of tradition I definitely find it really really fascinating it is at a crucial
moment in the development of the state of Arkansas because we're just dealing with that
that time right prior and then after statehood when it had reached I think 50,000 a population
50,000 I think was the the tipper to allow I think so yeah a state to be entered into
the union and the the the it to me it is really really fascinating it does deal heavily with
beasts as you already mentioned we're we're talking about bear hunting we're talking about
wild hogs in particular as well as panthers those are the the big three whether whether
they were as large as reported whether they were as fierce as reported etc is you know
specific to to an anecdote and specific to an individual story but there is a really
fascinating push-pull from a from a sociocultural standpoint that is going on here as Arkansas
is moving into statehood because we have these outlandish stories and and I think to some
degree it's fair to say that there are some some basis we're dealing with on an extremely
rugged frontier at this at this juncture point and we're also dealing with a not contradictory
but I would say geography within conflict we have very rugged mountains we have some
navigable river we have a lot of natural resources that are suddenly available for exploitation
and then prior to things like river management and draining we have an enormous amount of
swamp land and no effective cure for malaria so there are a lot of factors going in and
I think from the 1840s into the 1860s we see you know you look at the the war you look
at the Civil War in the in Arkansas you look at some of the successful and then in some
cases very unsuccessful riverboat expeditions and campaigns in association with Arkansas
you look at the the differences between the fighting in lowland Arkansas and the flatland
the delta as opposed to fighting up in the mountains up here on Key Ridge there's there
we're dealing with very disparate regions that just happen to be in close proximity
true true and it's sort of an aside that I find kind of amusing is that the sort of the
voice of reason in all of this these tales and this and these stories that got put out
ultimately belong to none other than Albert Pike of trying to pull people off the ceiling
and say now now you know Arkansas is not you know that that that wild that that dangerous
and here's the beauty of it you know considering other things he's known for you you're just
not expecting that but what Albert Albert Pike being one of our favorite Ozarks adjacent
personalities from the 19th century yes well I mean he did live in Arkansas and actually
taught school there and darn near got killed there and then went on to other notoriety
that that you don't have to get into there there I am I'm I'm Pike Pike is one of one
of my heroes that I hold at arms length yeah he's a fascinating character that there there
were you know you know admirable things that in his life and other things you just kind
of go wait oh and I something that on this overall subject that I I do find particularly
fascinating we have this with these 19th century publications we have this motif of Arkansas
that has developed yeah backwoods bear hunt and hillbillies and there in some cases these
stories are the origin of these stories are native ie individuals the individuals who
are writing them are from Arkansas they are in Arkansas they have found a publication
you know a means of fame and comparative fortune through publication in this and in other cases
the writers may only have been peripherally involved with Arkansas perhaps they passed
through perhaps they were originally from Arkansas but they moved to Chicago and then
begin publication and it becomes its own the at the time of printing a contemporary folklore
develops of the nature of the state and it is it once frontier like and heroic but at
the same time it can it can and often is extremely demeaning and stereotypical yes yes I think
more so to those outside the region stereo stereotyping where I think in the region more
of it was taken tongue-in-cheek or could be and one aspect I wanted to touch on is that
these tall tales and of early Arkansas everything they focus a lot on bears hogs and wild cats
now of course bears are not native in thousands of years to the British Isles etc but lore
about monstrous cat beings actually are you know something that comes out of lore from
the from the IOs and the Celts yes it does Goblin cats witch cats hell cats not not
the f6f built by Grumman 1942 ah the preceded by the Wildcat and not the car no but these
are this is something that dates back extraordinarily now we have we have endured the notoriety
of the explosion and proliferation of fiery comments in regards to the existence or nonexistence
of large cats in the Ozarks and particularly what color they may or may not be I'll leave
it at that but I vote for I vote for transparent I think we should write about transparent
cats that's okay with that but it's there there is something now I think an interesting
thing just from a psychological emotional spiritual standpoint there is something instantly
evocative about the idea of a large supernatural cat it is I mean it's I mean certainly you
know phantom hands certainly have that that mistake but I think with with these cats it
seems to be more almost a little more vicious version if that's possible agreed and there
there is the certainly for anybody who's familiar with cats since they were tried to tangle
with one that wasn't happy stuck in a box needing a bath needing to go to the vet these
types of things yeah it doesn't take very much cat to inflict an enormous amount of
damage yes and then you take one that is very large and it is terrifying but yes and then
also just the idea of which cats too I think is very interesting aside from the typical
Halloween motif of a which is familiar being a black cat it's more innate than that and
in some ways to me the controversy about whether or not there could be black panthers in our
midst is almost reminiscent of a witchy overtone that it has to be you know it cannot be it's
magical if it is little tongue-in-cheek there but it's the idea of just the visceral reactions
of people have to the notion I think can discern you know which cat it is it is and I feel
that really brings up just a just an interesting observation because in a perhaps in a different
dimensional timeline individuals would be having the conversation about whether or not
black panthers existed in the Ozarks and in a very reason sort of well they could be
there they might not be there by whatever that's not what happens there are intense
emotions and intense personal investment on both sides oftentimes oftentimes the there
there are no animals of this nature in this region category are and as zealous if not
more zealous for their cause then then the individuals who oftentimes you know are the
folks rural folks farming folks who are going y'all can believe what you want to but I know
what I saw exactly aside from accounts from law enforcement etc you know and so there's
there's a there is a even and I find it incredibly fascinating I think it's an important motif
in terms of observing human nature even when you strip the traditions of religion out of
something you you still find human beings acting religiously and zealously for a cause
that they believe in that I mean that's that's true and ironically most of most of the people
with such strong opinions don't seem to have a personal stake in the matter either I mean
or even as personal experience which I find a little baffling but I also this comes back
to our you know many many of the individuals who've reached out to Darko's Arts etc are
commented and you know opened up dialogue through the page that a lot of everyday folks
who are being argued with in regards to the existence of and I'll just say the existence
of Black Panthers and the Ozarks the the folks who've seen them they're not dissimilar to
the individuals that we've talked to who have had paranormal experiences genuine incredible
paranormal because they're like I don't I didn't care until it happened to me I'm not
trying to argue with anyone I'm just telling you what I experienced or I'm just telling
you what I saw exactly exactly and and I think it's a good illustration of if anyone's confused
by why there's such a rich history of lore particularly in Scotland of which cats just
that process of that dialogue makes it understandable of how you end up with lore like that you
that you have a very real creature that is very dangerous that can be very vicious on
a level that other animal attacks do not have the same level of mutilation etc and ascribing
something more than a corporal animal to it as being extremely unsettling even more so
and watching the debate about Panthers and the Ozarks I can see yeah I can just imagine
how all of lore developed over time in the past regarding large cats and witches and
so forth because it is rather amazing it is and I think that on a on a sort of a psychosocial
quality there there is a lot of momentum and a lot of force and likely from a from an aspect
of genetic memory and or ancestral memory there is a lot of momentum in in the whole
in this entire genre that's that's true I think I think you hit the nail on the head
there I I am I'm personally fascinated by by witch cat stories and just that conflation
it is also interesting just putting yourself into the the mindset just a little bit of
the mindset your what's the word for it your many so first of all many of the the settlers
coming into the Ozarks were Scotch-Irish and they were coming from with a an incredibly
rich tradition of witch cats yeah and and which cat lore as well as wards against witch
cats and understanding of which cats as shifters and all of these things and they're coming
into a region that unlike Scotland and Northern Ireland which had cats but did not have large
cats there they are suddenly coming into a region you can debate the melanistic color
or non-melanistic color or you want to but they are coming into a region in which there
were very large cats living and hunting so yes so if if if domesticated size cats are
an issue now one that's five times their size or so oh my you know I can yeah I agree I
can see that and you brought up a point too there that it's the the shifter aspect of
it I wanted to go into a little more as far as there are a lot of of tales in the Ozarks
actually that fall into that category and actually I think more over time there seem
to be more occurring now than even in you know 150 200 years ago it seems and it's in
part kind of you know it comes out of this tradition also comes out of Native American
traditions but you have lore and experiences are being brought to us etc involving shape
shifting whether it is a human form or a human appearance with animal characteristics or
shifting between a human form and animal form and sometimes it's related to magic and sometimes
not as clearly and I find that interesting I find it interesting that there seems to
be more accounts of it now than in the past what are your thoughts oh I think it's that
one is complicated you know I think one of the things we have established is that there's
an enormous amount of ancestral memory that even outweighs ancestral lore and first of
all I think incredibly powerful it's difficult to track because but it is something that
seems to happen where even if the lore is lost if the stories are lost over a generation
that the somehow the gravitas or the importance of the thing continues to reign in the following
generations and so someone for example of Scottish or Irish or Scots-Irish ancestry
who might not even know that they have that ancestry could be exposed to a thing and some
have say I don't understand why but this is incredibly important to me I am personally
invested in the thing and I can't explain why that's true and then but and then bumping
up against Native American lore that has similar characteristics and I think in that kind of
situation the lore from both traditions kind of validates the other as far as oh this kind
of thing is not just unique in one tradition or another and so it gives it more pretense
I think as far as okay there's something to it yes I in the way I can the way I tend to
see this or I'm seeing this at the moment is like looking into a reflection of the past
book of glass is shattered you see all of these different fragments and bits and pieces
and certain things certain things that you see may may feel very important other things
may simply not make any sense usually a great place to go is into the original lore if at
all possible finding the original the original documentation that's certainly a lot easier
to do with our European ancestry because of places like Trinity College etc that there
are that there's documented bits and pieces that that really do go deep but in the in
the case of individuals with with Native American ancestry connecting with your tribe learning
your tribe's history connecting going to the for example in many cases around here finding
where your tribe is is is headquartered in in Oklahoma talking to individuals who have
made it of their vested interest to learn and preserve the language to learn and preserve
the customs the cultures and learn the history and understand the history all of these things
are are very very important in the process to see and find what resonates because a lot
of times a thing will resonate and we subconsciously or even unconsciously associate it we know
it's important there's something about the thing it might be a theme it might be an image
it might be a bit of song that we just innately connect with and we don't know why and I think
in many cases it is that ancestral memory it is that connection with our past and our
past thousands of generations past and we know it's important but we can't explain
why it's also within that space really easy especially with the internet to just get again
those fragments those pieces and we might associate ourselves with that but not fully
be able to contextualize the association and so we're we're suddenly in essence basing
our personality off of a very fragmented image and we become very personally invested and
in some cases hostile in terms of defending something that we don't fully understand.
I think that's I think that's a fair assessment. Personal experience I've only done it like
repeatedly. What was the surprise? Yeah mostly with my Celtic ancestors. I don't know about
you I'm going to talk about headless horsemen. It's always a fun topic. Headless beasts
headless phantom beasts of any kind are are incredibly fun. The reality
that we can tie this back to the Dullahan is fascinating to me.
Yes and again it headlessness is death omen also a lot of shades of the banshee
or similarities but what I think it's interesting that the Dullahan can has more control over who
dies I think or picking and choosing and it really is the genesis of sleepy hollow
which everyone's familiar with. I love it so I'm going to brag on myself for just a moment
because that's the thing I do. I am very proud of the fact that I've been a fan of the Dullahan for
probably close to 25 years. The Dullahan is a bit more commonplace on the internet
today than it was 25 years ago. So let's just say I dug pretty deep to find Dullahan lore in
the late 90s early 2000s and succeeded. There is something very certainly very
spectral and powerful and malevolent and terrifying and resonant about the image of the Dullahan
even before you know his origins because the Dullahan is and I find this interesting technically
the Dullahan is a fairy and that for people who are not familiar with the broad realities of
Irish fairyland they are not prepared for something like the Dullahan. He's a headless
rider on a black horse carrying his own head under his arm. Which in the head is basically how he
guides himself because he can see and uses a human spine as a whip,
dragging a wagon in some versions that is full of you know it's basically a funeral wagon
with candles and skulls and boats of the wheels are made from thigh bones and covered with
worm chute, pall or dried human skin. You know him when he's coming so to speak.
Yes yes you do and this is over certainly the coach aspect the Kosh-i-davach, the aspect of the
Dullahan is in my opinion something that began to really be developed in the 16th 17th centuries
in Ireland and at the time would have been a contemporary retelling but the when you begin
to wrap your head around the fact that the Dullahan is also considered to be the embodiment of
Kromdor the Celtic god of death. Yes. This the gravitas of this being takes an extraordinary turn
yes well in some ways he reminds me of the baron in Voodoo.
Agreed agreed and because he is he's a lot similar
to function a functions is the ferryman yes yes and you do have to wonder if the
added elements with the coach and in sort of that very grotesque adornment
really didn't come out of the black plague the black death certainly it's possible I think
you know there there to me were very common to me it is an there there are interesting qualities to
this because they're obviously by the 1600 1700s beginning places you know in not beginning places
the the the English influence the British influence in in Ireland and in Dublin and
waterford etc making these cities into at the time contemporary modern English cities with
the trappings thereof and the carriages and the the death customs and all of that but although
we do not have archaeological evidence of chariots in Ireland we do have an incredibly rich body of
lore associated with war chariots horse-drawn wagons of sort that were associated with the
great epic cycles and consequently by attachment associated with the gods and so the to me that
it's interesting qualities that are all feeding into this of a great mythological the mythological
embodiment of death and something on wheels yes yes agreed and ironically and of course it also
the headlessness to me is also symbolic of the Celts more generally because
they decapitate their enemies and veneration of the severed head yes the extraordinary
focus on the on the severed head in Celtic and traditional Celtic belief structures that both as
a as a as an act of war and then also a generation of one's ancestors that again speaks to the
dual dual nature and the duality of the Celtic cosmology and I think now would be just a good
time to insert just for a moment the ancient gods of the Celts in the British Isles as the
overarching influence of Christianity spread those gods shifted in terms of the the people
the the everyday people for example of Ireland we'll just speak with on Ireland specifically
in this case the the people of Ireland adopted Christianity but they did not throw away the old
gods the the old gods changed and they they are referred to as the Tuatha de Daman the the people
of the goddess Danu they are referred to as the good people the fair folk the fey and they they are
the the the lesser known Irish mythology of which we to a degree only have bits and pieces of
through the cycles we have more than we think we have because the ancient gods are what later become
the fairy tales yes in in in a large sense that's very true they it's just a matter of
retelling in different ways and they are very much with us and they are very much with the the idea
of the the headless phantom and that yes headless specter is with us in the Ozards as well it is in
in many locations one just over here on highway 13 there's a there's an old legend of a of a
of a headless man who walks old highway 13 but as was noted he walked highway 13 before they changed
highway 13 so the the new grades in the road may have changed but they are still there and they
meant that he went elsewhere or that he's walking in an area that isn't a road now
exactly or or at least not visible from the road
and and there's there's several reasons aside from just the settlers bringing lore
um the Osage who were the dominant Native American tribe in in the region often
decapitated their enemies um we're so used to western movies and tv giving us that scalping was
the was the uh trophy of choice but not necessarily um and those age were want to
leave heads in a pile as warnings as well so which works it which is worse but also very
akin to ancient Celtic practices as we have been told
oh it is it is which I really find rather endearing yeah
okay remind me not to fall asleep absolutely
simply oh fyi I'm creepier than I looked um
speaking of my the momentum of my genetic memory um or ancestral memory it is
oh but there is something about a pile of severed heads or a head on a pike that definitely gets
one's attention uh and really sends a very clear message to one's opposition
yes and in the Ozarks that that that has occurred various times but prominently again during the
civil war um and not just by those fight Native Americans fighting um there were a number of
soldiers on both sides that would decapitate um and um but um you know and there's so there's several
stories of that there's the headless phantom that roams outside humansville um that is supposed to
be of an unknown unidentified soldier um there is the headless phantom in Avila which
whose story is much akin to the head on the pike on London Bridge as anything else
um and in that circumstance the the town militia who they Avila was pro-union um although there were
a number of slaveholders there they they were they advocated staying in the union and they
uh they've been attacked so many times by bushwhackers that they um they formulated a plan to
and protect the town that was offensive rather than defensive as was often used up to that point
and ultimately their their their self-defense plan was adopted throughout Missouri during the war
and basically they went out and hunted bushwhackers and in this particular instance
they came across the decomposing body of a bushwhacker that apparently they had shot and not
realized at some point and as a warning hung his head from either an apple tree or osage
orange tree uh along the road entering town as a warning to other bushwhackers
right that and uh you know a warning like that does send a very clear message
it really does a rotting skull does tend to send a message and then i go oh go ahead
i was going to say what you know um throughout the world and certainly and it's the time of halloween
uh as well as dia de los muertos that the the image of the skull is just it is a incredibly powerful
motif and it just it's obviously it speaks to our mortality it it's i suppose it's you know it's
the the one part of our uh of our skeletal structure that most closely resembles us and life
it there is something innately attracting but also repulsive and frightening and interesting
and compelling all at once with the imagery of the skull very true and uh just the you know using
the phrase imagery of the skull made me think of dead man's pond um in snow county where again
townsfolk um ambushed uh bushwhackers who had stolen cattle after they had killed several
men in town uh in galena missouri um and they had the bushwhackers encamped at the pond um that
became known as dead man's pond and they slaughtered them to the last man and the story went that the
bodies were rolled into the pond and over time skulls were you know basically uh would either
or were dredged up but i always find it interesting i've yet to hear a rendering of the story
that said other bones were found right it's always just the skulls
it's the skull and which what makes you wonder if they if they were beheaded at the time
well that is that does bring up a good question um or the skulls were just the most creepy and
iconic and they managed to make it into the story but either way it is it is a powerful aspect and
of course there's a lot of hauntings associated with dead man's pond yes and you know understandably so
oh but but it does it does make you wonder uh certainly does have that headless um
motif to the story almost to a fault um let's see
let's see you can talk about vampires vampires are always fun
unless before you're a victim of the vampires it's less fun now here's here is here's an aspect
that i i do find really interesting well we can it's kind of i was going to say draw a line but
it's it's more of a complex yarn diagram stretching from location to location and sometimes intersecting
because the vampires vampire mythology vampire lore all of this has it is beyond monolithic
in modern culture it is instantly recognizable in the 20th century and 20th and 20th and now
21st century cinema it is just extraordinarily massive and so much so that certain names
uh are are just associated with with vampire mythology even as a modern myth
names like an rice
uh lastot bello legosi um honestly christopher lee these are you know hammer core films
uh all of this ties together i'm expressly not mentioning a couple but
the the the progenitor of all of this is is bram stoker and bram is of course cited his
cited his his sources with the romanian uh vlad the impaler as its origin and there's an enormous
amount of focus on that but stoker was irish and irish and scottish folklore contain what although
they're not called vampires contain a very rich lore of vampiric like fe or um you know vampiric
death spirits that your spirits of the dead as opposed to spirits of the fe that
in some cases are not that dissimilar from dear woman true very true
had not thought of that but that's true of thinking of the dear do i i take it yeah the the
there do and and um the avatach there's yeah there there's these
uh well there's a couple um you know we've got there there are some claims that the avatach
uh in in irish folklore quote unquote a chieftain dwarf who could not be killed he would come up from
his grave every night um drink the blood of his enemies and no matter how many times he got killed
he'd just show back up it's uh it's like a recurring nightmare uh he
the only way to kill the avatach uh was with a sword made of you of you would and that is really
interesting in and of itself obviously it's basically a wooden stake but the the you um for
those of you who are confused it's y e u uh has an extraordinary history as uh as a magical free
not dissimilar to the hawthorn true so i mean it's um so that magical power
ostensibly would be what made using it different than another means of killing him
so that he wasn't resurrected um but again it it just very similar to the idea of the wooden stake
um and um that um also that he was buried upside down right he buried right down which um
um often um in medieval graves um that they find evidence that someone was killed or thought to be
a vampire one of the sort of precautions taken would often be to bury the person upside down
yeah right right and going over to the derrick do uh there is that crossover with dear woman in
this case this is a a young woman who is horribly abused by the the man that she is given to
uh not the man that she wants to marry uh the man that her father forces her to marry he and
when we're in and really now this is this is a very dark but interesting story to me obviously
it speaks of um you know the some of the darkest aspects of domestic abuse but where we're that if
you if you just uh strictly follow the lines of the story we're we're dealing with a um a rich
aristocracy who takes a poor girl as his wife and then forces her to submit to ritualistic abuse
because he's draining her blood and that is a common motif in that that resonates throughout
the story because ultimately he kills her yes which again is a motif that is very similar to
teeth that is used time and again in vampire fiction and movies etc it is uh but in this case
uh and to me this really speaks of the
um dark mischievousness and the turn of fate that you see in the uh in the tuatha de dame
uh because it is certainly implied that the the the husband is uh is mortal he's doing
horrible things but he's mortal uh his young wife dies he is already off with these other women
she is buried in a pauper's grave nobody her family doesn't care because they got paid
there's some really really horrible aspect to this story and then uh she
returns as the dead can do and seeks her revenge first on her father and then on her husband
Mm-hmm and then it's balanced with you know that um yes she she comes back with revenge but in part
she comes back with revenge but in part of the telling of the story is ironically that her lost
love actually is loyal to her visits her grave every day professes his love and praying for her
return but that unfortunately is not what she responded to she responded to the revenge which
of course delves into the darker aspects of vampire lore it does and there to me there's
something very obviously there's there's a really satisfying aspect of vengeance and justice uh
vigilante justice in essence in this uh in this case um there there is lore in the idea that if
you don't want a person like this to come back you pile stones on their grave and there's a couple of
different turns of this particular story one was that she's the first dead can do it and so they
didn't know to pile stones on her grave now that does apply the possibility that this could be
this could happen again with different people so that's creepy but there is also a twist in the fact
that that they did pile the stones and her her lover removes the stones to allow her to return
yes that um basically his love blinded him to the reality of what she had become yes
and and then she forms an insatiable desire for blood
yes and and then pretty much we are full-blown vampire lore um yes we are we we have arrived
we have arrived and and also the fact that there's there's not really a a conclusion to the story
after she uh seeks her revenge uh she enjoyed blood so much that she really just goes on an
internable hunt yes and theoretically continued to this day exactly which again just is rife with
modern vampire lore of the you know these eternal beings and uh existing basically forever um and so
it does make you wonder if if nothing else that stoker didn't uh have the seeds of the idea from
these tales and then of course finding vlad the impaler and romania just made it
mysterious more mysterious for the english his english audience and i think in in in a way i think
one reason that the that stoker's version has endured is because he used he did use real places
he used elements of reality that i think became very intriguing for people because it made it feel
like it's more plausible um and i think that's part of the genius of his telling and why it's
still the standard i i very much concur with that because it is it does feel grounded in the reality
of the age exactly and so um i i think it's very likely that these these stories were the initial
uh impetus but um through research because he he spent years actually researching it before um
and writing it it was like seven eight years so you know he found the perfect
you know um combination of facts and lore to create the story um i think that makes me feel
better about the amount of time that it takes for me to write a novel you and me both
um as i have one city has seen
uh that i've been working on for years um but uh again for our osart's connection there's
vampire lore in the osarts um i mean there's even in the internet age you can find it related to
springfield and supposedly in the tunnels of of jordan creek and downtown springfield
um and there there certainly are credible firsthand accounts of odd things that go on there um of a
either originalistic or at least an organized uh basis but and we've told us uh on on on a video
in the past there there is a lore of a vampire uh buried in a cemetery and i believe phelps county
uh that was a i believe a mine a coal miner and he was an albino which of course feeds him you know
one of the urban legend motifs but he really was an albino and a miner and but the lore has grown up
that he he was a vampire it has it has and there's i believe if memory serves that's the the the
the cemetery with the cage yes there is a cage and um and all kinds of stories come up around
those those kinds of graves that ultimately they serve two purposes one one was just to uh deter
looters and the second was to um deter reanimators you know so that the body would be taken to you
know medical school to be dissected we're looking at you professor medall
oh yeah yeah and and the the grotesque nature of that bit of history when that uh the the remnants
of that history get presented onto the internet without context it is very easy for individuals
to erroneously jump to the conclusion oh my gosh the cage is there to keep somebody in it must be
a witch's grave it must be a vampire's grave it must be this it must be that no it's there to keep
looters out yeah to protect the grave yeah to simply protect the grave and sometimes that uh
is a little disappointing to people because they really wanted it to be the thing and i think
psychologically we we we see these things and we think we're the only one who's ever found it
and we want ourselves to be the person to have discovered the mystery of the of the the vampire
or you know whatever uh and i think we see something similar with the uh the obsession over
purported witch's graves throughout the ozarks and agreed agreed and you get that you get that
in a lot of places but um it i think it's just sort of that almost forbidden subject to deletion
after on witches graves uh because usually the reason we identify a grave uh as a witch's grave
is pre-mundane usually right right usually a bit of uh of inscription that to our uh modern eyes
seems somehow mystical or we might think of it as a spell but in the in the 19th century was actually
a very common uh victorian era inscription to invite the uh the cemetery goer the graveyard goer
uh to be introspective and to contemplate building a better life now rather than the hereafter
yes and and and that even the idea of inviting to do that seems a little a stance now but
at the time people spent time in cemeteries uh had pitnets in cemeteries they were a place
of introspection and reflection so i mean it would make it made perfect sense at the time
and and a place to eat your fried chicken and let the kids play
but that's right let's go visit grandma and have fried chicken yeah yeah and it it's
in our incredibly modern world that we're so we just like to pat ourselves in the back that we're
so um contextually developed we're you know don't realize that we've been heavily influenced by
um you know 40 years of horror movies instead of a long and structural past of respect exactly
you know one thing i want to touch on it that is the lowest stance but from from the lore but maybe
not are um giant birds yes and flying humanoids um um you know uh i i'm quite fascinated by both
yeah there apparently there there is uh and i i don't know a lot about in in the materials um
um reference to tale out of basically texas cantexas and hale county missouri of giant birds
the gigantesis
um six foot birds um which seems to be a bit of a tall tail um but certainly there you know
could have been a rather large bird and um i don't know if you see a
vulture up close there they certainly can have a wingspan of that or more so um
uh i found that interesting then the late 20th century go to it's a pterosaur um stories um yeah
and i don't know i i wonder if the idea of the pterosaur
is comes out of the fascination with dinosaurs which became very prevalent in mid 20th century
or is it somehow a refashioning of phoenix um stories the phoenix stories or thunderbird more
or thunderbird yeah uh there's a lot tying into this and of course the
uh the lore about pterosaurs or pterodactyls is its own cryptid genre
both here interestingly enough uh sightings in what is is interestingly our our uh
you know specific parallel latitude that seems to be a long running stretch of weirdness
the 38 parallel yes which runs right through the northern ozarts yes and they're from ufo sightings
to bigfoot sightings to pterodactyl uh rumors to weird things and certainly there's the the tie-in
uh with the with the uh native american lore of the thunderbird and uh and and i'm gonna throw the
um the pious a bird in there as well i mean it's i think so there's some interesting tie-in what we
do know is that uh the the the mississippian slash cahokian mound builder people did share ties with
uh with middle american messo american central american peoples and so we can we can draw some
comparisons there and certainly from uh thunderbird lore of uh of the great plains to uh the the
feathered wing serpent ketsu koto uh to other messo american deities that were associated with
the sky these sky gods sky animal motifs are extremely powerful and powerful enough that
whether we understand the ancient culture or not they do resonate with us
on a on a on a very visceral level well i i i think so i mean in in
you mentioned the pious a bird um at the mississippi and and you know just
just contemplating um what all happened for them to put the painting on the cliff
it that just that process resonates so it does make you wonder um what it is about the about this
motif other than it's kind of like the big cats i mean it's something very i mean very out of the
ordinary potentially very dangerous could pick you up and fly off and you know you know you know
it's a very dangerous could pick you up and fly off with you a kind of danger that is totally
unsettling it is and and i would say archetypal as well yes but i find it also interesting that
it's kind of morphed and and again it kind of goes not not entirely just with the internet age
but with the
20 to 30 years it we've developed a two things one is a motif of now it's not just a huge bird but a
flying humanoid um and you started getting these accounts actually over large cities
to begin with um and chicago comes to mind chicago may have been one of the first places but you had
a lot of them where people would spot what looked like a flying man um sometimes with wings sometimes
not um and then um there there have been accounts even in kansas to the kansas city area the st louis
area we're getting you know again we're kind of kind of coming down towards the 38th parallel
there's there's been accounts actually one account that i heard but i've never been able to track
down the original source supposedly out of the joplin area there's one out of the branson area
um and um i just find it interesting and in um particularly the ones that were there weaved
um the the other prong of this is sort of the mothman um motif which starts in the 60s at pleasant
uh bleson um west virginia and that has you know sort of a definite origin story um but
it's not necessarily purely humanoid um but similar type of experience
and that also that type of creature has been reported elsewhere as well um
i kind of wonder are are our encounters with whatever large flying things are out there
potentially um now being clouded by our media-driven idea of monsters i would say yes i think that is a
very i think that's a fair uh conjecture that that certainly the um the the power
the power of mothman has has reached across the nation uh if not further than that and reached
a long ways from 1966 and pleasant point west virginia that at the same time that doesn't you
know the the existence of the the fact that we as human beings are able to absorb elements of pop
culture and then in some way shape or form inadvertently reconstitute it in our own fiction
um and sometimes believe our own fiction does not take away from the reality that some of this
phenomena also appears to be occurring separately yes i mean um i i think it's you know potentially
fair to say that you know some of these at least maybe something large in the sky whatever it is
and as far as i know california condors haven't migrated to the middle of the continent so
i'm not sure that we know of uh it's just it is odd to say the least the um the the the story from
uh a flying humanoid outside of branson for me was particularly fascinating it's it's documented
on ultimate unexplained.com and what what especially caught my eye is that the individuals
who say that they saw this um their their videos on youtube it was featured on destination america
and as they tell that they journeyed into the woods near turkey creek outside of branson which
which is a mile from my house right and ironically ironically i've heard the same
version of this story happening supposedly happening at turkey creek in joplin
there's now for people who are unfamiliar there are a number of turkey creeks in the ozards
yes so it does so you know it makes you wonder is it the same event being told is happening in
other places or not um i don't know and i don't either um just and this is probably based just on
our time this is probably our last one to to cover for this episode but um the the article mentions
um several individuals uh they sharing that they went into the woods near turkey creek
um i i love the description it's a stream in the missouri ozarks that extends down into arkansas
uh the guys found a strange cave and shortly afterward they heard sounds in the trees it was
a whooshing sound that brought them face to face with a winged creature that looked half human half
bird one man said it sounded almost like a freight train and of course it did and it was kind of
it was coming straight at them as they fled the creature also relented interesting choice of
words uh and uh if you check out the the article itself there's even a youtube video reenacting
their experience which i watched you watched i i did not i i did get that part it's only a few
minutes long i i recommend watching it and uh interestingly enough the the individuals playing
the the people in the article are actually the people in the article playing themselves
reenacting all of it interesting yes the play is the thing so
it's uh
um i i'm i am personally fascinated i'm on one hand i find the article this particular bit of
information really amusing because it's in my own backyard and i guarantee you you could pull
pretty much everybody other than me after this afternoon uh in uh the the turkey creek community
and nobody would know what we're talking about that's and that's probably accurate um you know
and but here's my theory i think someone has a jet pack
and and and and they they're playing france and you know apparently all over southern missouri and
and i've heard this version a similar version you know i became seary in st louis so someone's
getting around with a jet pack is is my personal theory um and i want one but uh i did two uh with
one caveat and that is that i get a bird suit to go with it someone might shoot you
and probably for good reason
well that that is a dive into some of the monster lord and the irony there is that there's quite a
bit more um yes there is but i'm i propose i i'm proposing a uh a part two a little bit later in
the uh in the season i i think i think that i think we can definitely do that um in the meantime
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