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Hey everybody, this is Joshua Heston.

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And I'm Lisa Martin.

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And this is the Dark Ozarks on the Branson Podcast Network.

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We're an exploration of everything that's dark in history, mysteries, the paranormal,

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and everything else.

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We explore the noir, the unknown, cryptozoology, UFOs, paranormal, and all the dark stuff that

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happens in the Ozarks.

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You can find Dark Ozarks on Branson Podcast Network, on Facebook under Dark Ozarks, as

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well as our YouTube channel, Dark Ozarks.

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We'll leave no stone unturned to bring you the dark history, mysteries, and legends of

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the Ozarks.

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Welcome to the Dark Ozarks.

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We are discussing mirrors, specifically magic, fairy tales, and ghosts.

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From death customs to telling the future, mirrors have had a central place in the supernatural

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for thousands of years.

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We will get back to that in a minute.

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But first we want to remind you that the Dark Ozarks podcast is now available on Branson

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Podcast Network, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, Google Podcasts, Substack, or

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about any other podcast platform.

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So what might surprise people about that mirror hanging on their wall?

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There could be a lot of things, from divining fortunes to looking into the future to trapping

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spirits and yeah, we're looking at you, Bloody Mary, all the way to interdimensional travel.

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There have been a lot of theories through time associated with mirrors.

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And there are a few magic mirrors here in the Ozarks as well, if you believe the stories.

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We will return to what might be behind your foggy bathroom mirror in a minute.

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But first we want to invite you to like, follow, and subscribe to Dark Ozarks on Facebook,

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Instagram, YouTube, Substack, as well as your favorite podcast platform.

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We also invite you to become a Dark Ozarks subscriber on Facebook.

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On the Dark Ozarks Facebook page, click subscribe, have your login information ready, and join

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Dark Ozarks behind the scenes for only $4.99 per month.

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Your $4.99 per month subscription allows you to come with us on paranormal investigations,

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deep dive research, and topics too controversial for public view.

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The next 100 subscribers will be entered in a drawing for a free Dark Ozarks t-shirt and

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an exclusive signed first drawing copy of the book Dark Ozarks, The Spook Light.

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Subscribe today to be entered in the drawing.

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And now you can get Dark Ozarks t-shirts for sale at darkozarks.com and paranormalsciencelab.com.

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We encourage you to check out Always Buying Books in Joplin, Missouri in person and online

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on Facebook and at the website, alwaysbuyingbooks.com for all of your reading needs, including a

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large section on the paranormal, history, and more.

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Not to mention, the building is haunted.

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Tell Bob and Elise that we sent you.

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We also want to thank Beard Engine Brewing Company in Alba, Missouri.

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Beard Engine Brewing is the only English-style brewery in Missouri and has been twice named

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Missouri's best brewery by the Missouri Brewers Association.

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Great beer and great food in a historical building with a noir past.

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And yes, this building is also haunted.

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Tell Nate and Tip that we sent you.

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Absolutely.

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Great stuff.

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Great people.

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I need more books.

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I would be happy to have more beer.

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Yes, same.

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So we'll be making that happen soon and maybe some announcements for some public events.

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Excited about that.

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We are coming up on that season and of course, encourage people to just be watching darkozarks.com

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and the Dark Ozarks Facebook page for all of that.

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And I'm going to be scared to brush my teeth tonight.

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You know, beyond just the normal scare when you turn the light on.

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Yeah.

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I'm scared enough.

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All by myself.

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But there is something truly unsettling about mirrors once you sort of scrub away the ubiquitousness

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of mirrors in our daily lives.

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That's true.

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And you know, it is kind of interesting because lore around mirrors goes back thousands of

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years worldwide.

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But it kind of breaks down two ways of how it developed, particularly in ancient times.

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The West was more creeped out by mirrors overall, I'd say.

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In the East.

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And you can see in the lore that developed.

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Even in the Near East, going back to the ancient Egyptians, there really was not this negative

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or fearful side so much.

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In fact, mirrors were a means of communicating with the gods.

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And my guess is the ancient Egyptians would be a little perplexed at some of our phobias

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about death and mirrors and so forth.

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And then in the Far East, in China and Japan in particular, magic mirrors had a completely

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different connotation of what magic was than developed in the West.

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They did.

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They really did.

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And I found that very fascinating.

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There is actually an extraordinarily rare Asian magic mirror, apparently in the Fine

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Arts Collection in Cincinnati.

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And basically, I mean, they were works of art.

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Not many survived, but basically they were metal and with light shown on them, they become

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translucent and etchings on them are then reflected onto a white wall or surface.

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Much like magic lanterns became in the 18th and 19th century in the West, where basically

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you would have an image backlit by a candle or whatever that was projected by a lens onto

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a wall.

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But they were doing this with metal thousands of years ago.

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Yes, we're talking about bronze disks that it is really fascinating.

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From what we can tell, in terms of the craftsmanship, we're really not sure how they made them.

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We just know that they made them.

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And we know that because a few do still exist.

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But the craftsmanship would have to be amazing for this to happen because the symbols and

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the images that would be cast were not visible by the naked eye.

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No, it was only when you were actually using the mirror with a very strong light source

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that it would reflect the patterns.

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And apparently, what we can tell, the magic mirror in the Cincinnati Art Museum does date

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to the 15th and 16th centuries.

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But the records are that this type of mirror was first created in China during the Han

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dynasty, which is 200 BC to 200 approximately AD.

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Right.

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And it may be a little different conception of the idea of magic of what we're used to

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discussing on Dargozards or in the West generally.

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But I can certainly see why they refer to them as magic mirrors.

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Because there would be no apparent means of eliciting these images.

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Very, very true.

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And based on what seems to be projected from the mirrors, the mirrors appear to have been

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created for religious significance.

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And that, you know, I think is an important aspect.

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These had great supernatural significance or at least directed toward a supernatural

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focus, a religious focus, a faith focus, which, albeit not necessarily paranormal, is still

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significant within the realm that we're talking about oftentimes with Dargozards and or for

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an Ozarks connection.

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There's a pretty strong indicator, certainly a potential existent rumor, that a Chinese

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army may have marched through the Ozarks all the way to the St. Louis area.

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In the fourteen hundreds.

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Yes, that is true.

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Might have had a disc with them.

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But another interesting opposition to the West is that now often mirrors are placed

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in temples and Buddhist temples and Shinto temples, both to as protective devices and

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to repel ghosts and evil spirits.

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And also in Japan, often they're viewed with this purpose in the homes, whereas in the

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West, we worry about things being trapped in the mirrors and what could get through them

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instead of protecting us from those things.

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It is an interesting point of comparison.

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And of course, mirrors figure heavily in Feng Shui and again, just the placement in general

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for utilizing the movement of energy, repelling negative energy, moving positive energy within

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a space as it's not that dissimilar to me to, for example, having winding paths leading

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to the door instead of straight ones or putting a bottle tree next to next to the path to

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the front door.

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Very, very true.

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And if we also look at the history of which balls in the West, which, you know, which

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balls were used to repel or to repel witches or the evil eye.

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And if you have a which ball that has a spine glass inside it, they are said to trap evil

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spirits or evil witches.

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I have several in my house.

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In fact, I don't know if you've ever noticed several hanging in the dining room.

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Because which is now what do you think is obviously with aspects of the West, there

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are negative connotations with mirrors in the West as well as just a lot of lore.

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What do you what do you think in terms of the more negative lore that we've grown up

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with here in Western civilization?

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One that you could lose your soul into a mirror.

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And that can happen in several ways.

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The other is that there can be things on the other side of the mirror, whether it be in,

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you know, the other world beyond the veil or another dimension that could find their

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way through and cause you harm.

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I think I think those are probably the two.

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Two things and and they both are premised on the fact that the mirror is permeable.

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It is a surface that can be traveled through or across.

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Right.

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And so what we're really doing is that we're looking at the mirror as a doorway into the

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door.

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Into a world we don't know.

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Right.

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And and that could have consequences of death, loss of your soul or eternal entrapment.

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Yes.

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Or letting or letting loose the beasties that that could wreak havoc.

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Yes.

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And I do find it interesting.

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So again, as with a lot of magical war, you the advice that you get is often contradictory.

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Very head to head contradictory.

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So in some cases, breaking obviously, we all know that breaking a mirror is seven years

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bad luck.

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So that is just a an understanding in our culture.

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You don't have to explain its provenance.

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We just know that's part of good luck versus bad luck.

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But often people don't know why.

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Why is it seven years?

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Yes.

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And the but the other thing that I think is interesting is that in some cases, breaking

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the glass might open the portal.

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Other also Western lore, breaking the glass might close the portal.

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That's true.

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And I guess, to be perfectly honest, you never really know in one given situation, which

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way that's going to work.

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So it's kind of it's kind of like the movie scene when, you know, someone's disarming

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the bomb and they have to pick between the two wires and they're not sure.

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And it's 50 50.

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And so sometimes it kind of works that way with breaking a mirror in these situations.

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So if you are ever presented with a cursed mirror and you don't know whether to keep

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it in one piece or break it, just check your watch and see how much longer your movie is.

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That's true.

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You'll find out.

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If you're just just depends on what you're accurate.

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But

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but before I forget, some people may be wondering, you know, why seven years?

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And I remember, you know, younger years going by seven, you know, and I've heard

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people say, well, seven is just, you know, it's a, you know, a number surrounding luck.

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But the lore actually is a little deeper that supposedly that seven, it takes seven years

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for you for a soul to migrate if it's lost.

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So is this based on the idea that there's a soul trapped in the mirror and that breaking

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it releases it into the ether?

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Well that breaking it actually can cause you to lose your soul.

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Gotcha.

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And in which case, some of the lore says bury the pieces and don't ever look at the pieces

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because that's how you can lose your soul into a broken mirror.

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But if all else fails to grind it up

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to basically dust.

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Yes.

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So I'm not sure, you know, again, it's do I bury it or

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even with the idea with the lore, the protective lore around it, around the mirror, there is,

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it is perhaps significant that there is duality within that, that there is constant contradiction

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even in what to do, you know, in case of a fire break glass.

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No way.

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Go.

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Especially with the fire on the other side of the veil.

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Yes, yes.

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You just keep that there.

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And you know, the, the, the, the idea which, you know, we're going to get into some, some

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individual experiences that, that begin to move this out of the realm of a theory and

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into actually contemplation as far as investigation or occurrence.

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But the idea that it's

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at the point of death, you make sure that the mirrors are covered because the person's

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soul could be trapped in them after it exits the body at point of death.

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Yes, that basically they see the mirror get confused and go into it and can be trapped.

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And so, and then usually the lore is that this is a risk until they're buried, which

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I find is a bit of a conundrum because the idea that is the soul separate from the body,

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but once it's buried, it's okay.

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I right.

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And I think, I think obviously the idea is something that is, is a bit more that is probably

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a bit old fashioned for most of us, but the idea of resting in peace in a consecrated

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graveyard likely that's, that's, that's, that's probably, that's probably where that comes

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from.

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But then again, there's stories of, you know, haunted graveyards that go back hundreds of

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years.

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Yes, or at least, at least if they're going to haunt something, they're not going to be

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stuck in your mirror.

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They're going to be at the graveyard where they can be contained.

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Well, they're, they're pretty contained in the mirror, but you know, you just have to

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look at the way you're brushing your teeth.

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Exactly.

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You don't want to do that.

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So you put it in the graveyard, the consecrated graveyard, fully riffing here.

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And this, this is again, once you're, once you're dealing with investigation and once

237
00:20:53,280 --> 00:21:05,000
you're dealing with war, you really have to separate yourself from the very concrete logical

238
00:21:05,000 --> 00:21:13,160
and rational physics that we're accustomed to dealing with because you, you, once you

239
00:21:13,160 --> 00:21:22,080
begin interacting with the spiritual realm or realms, the rules of physics don't apply.

240
00:21:22,080 --> 00:21:26,320
Therefore our rules of logic don't necessarily apply.

241
00:21:26,320 --> 00:21:30,760
And so you do have to take these on a case by case basis.

242
00:21:30,760 --> 00:21:41,680
In so many cases, there seems to be nothing about a graveyard or mirror that is tethering

243
00:21:41,680 --> 00:21:50,400
or trapping or keeping or enticing a spirit to stay within that location.

244
00:21:50,400 --> 00:21:57,640
And so for us as investigators, for example, with cemeteries, you know, it's bad luck to

245
00:21:57,640 --> 00:21:58,800
go to a cemetery at night.

246
00:21:58,800 --> 00:22:00,480
It's spooky to go to a cemetery at night.

247
00:22:00,480 --> 00:22:03,520
Oh my gosh, you'd never be at the cemetery, the stroke of midnight.

248
00:22:03,520 --> 00:22:08,840
You'd never be at a cemetery during the witching hour, these types of things.

249
00:22:08,840 --> 00:22:12,560
And we do that on a regular basis.

250
00:22:12,560 --> 00:22:13,560
It's not creepy.

251
00:22:13,560 --> 00:22:16,680
It's oftentimes very beautiful, very peaceful.

252
00:22:16,680 --> 00:22:23,080
Even when there is paranormal activity, it can be very, very, very positive experience.

253
00:22:23,080 --> 00:22:29,600
And that's something that I think a lot of would be ghost hunters or people who are excited

254
00:22:29,600 --> 00:22:35,320
about it or allured by it would be scratching their heads.

255
00:22:35,320 --> 00:22:43,080
But interacting with the dead can be a very peaceful, beautiful and enriching experience.

256
00:22:43,080 --> 00:22:49,120
In the vast majority of cases, there's nothing to be creeped out about.

257
00:22:49,120 --> 00:22:55,200
And at the same time, I think it's very important for us as investigators and folklorists and

258
00:22:55,200 --> 00:23:07,680
historians to approach those rare instances when the dogmatic lore somehow applies.

259
00:23:07,680 --> 00:23:09,840
True.

260
00:23:09,840 --> 00:23:11,000
That happens too.

261
00:23:11,000 --> 00:23:18,800
It doesn't happen across the board, but then it can happen according to the lore or in

262
00:23:18,800 --> 00:23:21,160
accordance with the lore.

263
00:23:21,160 --> 00:23:22,160
That's true.

264
00:23:22,160 --> 00:23:31,120
And that brings to mind one piece of lore that fits into all of this because it has

265
00:23:31,120 --> 00:23:39,480
to do with the soul is that we all know that in the vampire movie or the werewolf movie

266
00:23:39,480 --> 00:23:42,160
that they have no reflection.

267
00:23:42,160 --> 00:23:49,600
And the idea, the reason they have no reflection in the mirror is because they're at this point

268
00:23:49,600 --> 00:23:56,680
have no soul or the werewolf would have a soul in human form, but theoretically not

269
00:23:56,680 --> 00:23:59,440
in werewolf form.

270
00:23:59,440 --> 00:24:08,000
And then there's lore that basically goes the same for demons that a demon does not

271
00:24:08,000 --> 00:24:12,400
have a reflection in the mirror, although he could be trapped in the mirror and you

272
00:24:12,400 --> 00:24:13,400
could see him.

273
00:24:13,400 --> 00:24:22,360
But that's another algebra problem.

274
00:24:22,360 --> 00:24:27,600
X and Y are not anyways.

275
00:24:27,600 --> 00:24:42,960
But so much of this is tied up into the interaction relationship between a soul and a mirror.

276
00:24:42,960 --> 00:24:54,120
And that is also why there are devices that basically came out of the Middle Ages and

277
00:24:54,120 --> 00:24:55,640
during the witch hunts.

278
00:24:55,640 --> 00:25:04,980
They're called witch bosses and basically and they can be employed in investigations

279
00:25:04,980 --> 00:25:05,980
as well.

280
00:25:05,980 --> 00:25:07,960
I've used them before.

281
00:25:07,960 --> 00:25:14,240
The bots made out of mirrors all facing inside.

282
00:25:14,240 --> 00:25:29,720
The idea is that spirit is trapped in the box and technique that can be used and I've

283
00:25:29,720 --> 00:25:37,080
used before is actually you have the mirrored box and it's sealed on all sides and you have

284
00:25:37,080 --> 00:25:45,000
an audio recorder in it inside the box while you do a EVV session.

285
00:25:45,000 --> 00:25:52,040
It's a little bit different play sort of on the Estes method that's so big right now.

286
00:25:52,040 --> 00:26:02,380
But it goes back to the idea that in the Middle Ages during witch hunts that you could trap

287
00:26:02,380 --> 00:26:07,520
a witch's soul in the witch box with the mirrors.

288
00:26:07,520 --> 00:26:09,000
Interesting.

289
00:26:09,000 --> 00:26:15,880
In terms of the investigation with paranormal investigations, what are your thoughts about

290
00:26:15,880 --> 00:26:21,000
using a witch box?

291
00:26:21,000 --> 00:26:29,680
I don't know that it really does anything one way or another that you get any more results.

292
00:26:29,680 --> 00:26:33,880
We would use it and then have separate reporters in the same room.

293
00:26:33,880 --> 00:26:43,880
The idea comparing do you get different responses inside the box or more clear responses.

294
00:26:43,880 --> 00:26:54,520
It really didn't get any significant evidence indicating one way or the other.

295
00:26:54,520 --> 00:27:01,520
That's probably why I haven't done it in quite a while.

296
00:27:01,520 --> 00:27:08,640
However I do think that you could probably experiment with something along those lines

297
00:27:08,640 --> 00:27:19,080
and then with magnets and electricity that you might get something more.

298
00:27:19,080 --> 00:27:23,520
Very true.

299
00:27:23,520 --> 00:27:32,840
This is where talking it reminds me growing up there was one family member's bathroom

300
00:27:32,840 --> 00:27:37,240
that had opposing sinks.

301
00:27:37,240 --> 00:27:41,880
It was like a galley.

302
00:27:41,880 --> 00:27:42,880
What do they call it?

303
00:27:42,880 --> 00:27:45,320
It's not the eternal.

304
00:27:45,320 --> 00:27:49,560
The phrase just left my brain.

305
00:27:49,560 --> 00:27:53,120
Where it's an eternal mirror image.

306
00:27:53,120 --> 00:27:54,120
Yes.

307
00:27:54,120 --> 00:28:02,120
You're not supposed to stand between them.

308
00:28:02,120 --> 00:28:06,640
When you have to walk between them to get to the toilet it's a little difficult.

309
00:28:06,640 --> 00:28:13,800
I don't think the designer thought of that.

310
00:28:13,800 --> 00:28:17,040
Interesting obstacle course.

311
00:28:17,040 --> 00:28:21,920
How bad do I have to go to the bathroom?

312
00:28:21,920 --> 00:28:24,440
I was about nine at the time.

313
00:28:24,440 --> 00:28:28,640
Had I known the lore I would have been on my hands and knees crawling under the sinks

314
00:28:28,640 --> 00:28:38,200
between the sinks to go to the bathroom.

315
00:28:38,200 --> 00:28:39,360
I think that's interesting.

316
00:28:39,360 --> 00:28:41,800
I found it fascinating.

317
00:28:41,800 --> 00:28:45,600
For the record I did look at myself in that space.

318
00:28:45,600 --> 00:28:50,680
I would actually goof off because you poke your head in and look one way and you see

319
00:28:50,680 --> 00:28:53,360
your head into infinity.

320
00:28:53,360 --> 00:28:54,360
Yes.

321
00:28:54,360 --> 00:28:57,160
It was quite entertaining.

322
00:28:57,160 --> 00:29:04,760
However that could mean that my soul has actually been splintered into infinity.

323
00:29:04,760 --> 00:29:13,920
We released an infinite number of nine-year-old Josh's into the interdimensional plane which

324
00:29:13,920 --> 00:29:21,480
actually could explain a lot of what's wrong with everything at this point.

325
00:29:21,480 --> 00:29:25,960
All because I had to go to pee.

326
00:29:25,960 --> 00:29:37,120
I wasn't going to say but it might actually explain a few things.

327
00:29:37,120 --> 00:29:41,120
It really does.

328
00:29:41,120 --> 00:29:47,240
I won't argue with that.

329
00:29:47,240 --> 00:29:54,960
The flip side is and I forget the name of the pandemonium room basically.

330
00:29:54,960 --> 00:29:59,240
I can't remember the name of it.

331
00:29:59,240 --> 00:30:08,360
Which is a room that is all mirrored.

332
00:30:08,360 --> 00:30:15,480
Now in Eastern traditions it is a good thing.

333
00:30:15,480 --> 00:30:27,000
It is often used to do yoga in and to focus the mind.

334
00:30:27,000 --> 00:30:32,400
Again it's a situation where the same thing is viewed very differently in the East versus

335
00:30:32,400 --> 00:30:33,400
the West.

336
00:30:33,400 --> 00:30:34,400
It is.

337
00:30:34,400 --> 00:30:35,400
It does remind me of something.

338
00:30:35,400 --> 00:30:41,800
I will probably get stung by my toes on.

339
00:30:41,800 --> 00:30:46,400
There's at least an infinite number of Josh's running around in other universes.

340
00:30:46,400 --> 00:30:49,400
It doesn't matter.

341
00:30:49,400 --> 00:30:55,920
As someone who is a long-time yoga practitioner, I have done yoga for a long time.

342
00:30:55,920 --> 00:31:03,640
Yoga is a really good way to come face to face with your subconscious.

343
00:31:03,640 --> 00:31:14,040
Especially in the meditation portions.

344
00:31:14,040 --> 00:31:18,320
I know that because I have done it.

345
00:31:18,320 --> 00:31:26,160
I have done a lot of that practice.

346
00:31:26,160 --> 00:31:33,280
There are times that coming face to face with your subconscious can be very unsettling.

347
00:31:33,280 --> 00:31:40,360
Especially if we are very repressed over particular emotions at particular times.

348
00:31:40,360 --> 00:31:47,800
I have a strong opinion on this that individuals who have a negative opinion about yoga and

349
00:31:47,800 --> 00:31:50,480
the idea that it is somehow demonic, etc.

350
00:31:50,480 --> 00:31:53,200
I have heard those arguments.

351
00:31:53,200 --> 00:31:57,480
I respect those positions.

352
00:31:57,480 --> 00:32:06,720
In so many cases where we are not meeting something dark, we are meeting our subconscious

353
00:32:06,720 --> 00:32:11,320
and it is scaring the hell out of us.

354
00:32:11,320 --> 00:32:20,000
For those that are scared of it, for me, I would be more concerned of why you are so

355
00:32:20,000 --> 00:32:22,680
scared of facing yourself.

356
00:32:22,680 --> 00:32:36,440
I was just saying, ironically, you hear that more these days than you used to.

357
00:32:36,440 --> 00:32:43,920
I remember when I started hearing that argument, I thought, it doesn't make much sense if you

358
00:32:43,920 --> 00:32:46,360
have practiced yoga.

359
00:32:46,360 --> 00:32:51,320
That is just me.

360
00:32:51,320 --> 00:32:56,320
I have practiced it a lot.

361
00:32:56,320 --> 00:33:01,280
It is something that I find very effective, very important.

362
00:33:01,280 --> 00:33:08,600
For those of us who do it, it is a very powerful and beautiful expression.

363
00:33:08,600 --> 00:33:12,880
You do come face to face with your darker sides.

364
00:33:12,880 --> 00:33:21,560
I think the big issue is that if you don't realize, and this is easy enough to have this

365
00:33:21,560 --> 00:33:29,840
happen if you are not schooled in the process, if you don't have the awareness, you can encounter

366
00:33:29,840 --> 00:33:39,800
things within this, within the processes that are scary and you don't realize that it is

367
00:33:39,800 --> 00:33:44,400
something that is a part of yourself that you have to work through.

368
00:33:44,400 --> 00:33:49,120
In the same sense that most nightmares are simply our subconscious trying to get our

369
00:33:49,120 --> 00:33:53,840
attention about something and we are too busy to listen.

370
00:33:53,840 --> 00:33:57,280
Exactly.

371
00:33:57,280 --> 00:34:02,920
The same goes for different aspects of paranormal investigation as well.

372
00:34:02,920 --> 00:34:16,120
I think that sometimes when people have a negative experience, it is often because of

373
00:34:16,120 --> 00:34:26,160
their own fears, their own emotions and mental state, and not as far as mental health, but

374
00:34:26,160 --> 00:34:31,120
just are you in a good state of mind at the time?

375
00:34:31,120 --> 00:34:41,720
That leads to these situations that people have a very strong reaction against and feel

376
00:34:41,720 --> 00:34:50,240
that it is very negative and they project that onto the environment or the spirit or

377
00:34:50,240 --> 00:34:52,520
entity involved.

378
00:34:52,520 --> 00:34:59,440
Whereas a lot of times it is more the living person that is the catalyst for what is going

379
00:34:59,440 --> 00:35:01,080
on.

380
00:35:01,080 --> 00:35:03,680
As it is.

381
00:35:03,680 --> 00:35:08,040
All of this is happening on an energetic level that doesn't involve or doesn't necessarily

382
00:35:08,040 --> 00:35:12,160
involve verbal communication.

383
00:35:12,160 --> 00:35:15,840
Very true.

384
00:35:15,840 --> 00:35:26,160
Most people are not adept or experienced at that kind of communication, that kind of sensory

385
00:35:26,160 --> 00:35:29,400
perception.

386
00:35:29,400 --> 00:35:41,480
When suddenly it happens, I find that people either have a sort of that almost a fight

387
00:35:41,480 --> 00:35:45,880
or flight dichotomy.

388
00:35:45,880 --> 00:35:56,560
Either they accept it and accept that they are a part of this exchange of energy or it

389
00:35:56,560 --> 00:36:01,480
is bad.

390
00:36:01,480 --> 00:36:13,200
I think this is really important not only to mirrors, but also just in terms of paranormal

391
00:36:13,200 --> 00:36:21,320
investigations as a whole, or finding yourself perhaps inadvertently as I want to do, inadvertently

392
00:36:21,320 --> 00:36:30,240
in spaces that have a lot of activity.

393
00:36:30,240 --> 00:36:37,840
For people who are, for example, freaked out about the yoga aspect because of its Eastern

394
00:36:37,840 --> 00:36:45,040
religion aspects, bringing it back to something that has no religious connotation to it whatsoever,

395
00:36:45,040 --> 00:36:59,520
for me, which is how I typically center myself before going into an investigation, is coming

396
00:36:59,520 --> 00:37:08,200
back to the space as though I were walking into a stable full of horses.

397
00:37:08,200 --> 00:37:13,360
Because horses communicate via more on an energetic level.

398
00:37:13,360 --> 00:37:15,120
It is nonverbal communication.

399
00:37:15,120 --> 00:37:23,520
We do know that they have a very sophisticated communication process and they react to energy.

400
00:37:23,520 --> 00:37:28,480
If you have ever ridden a horse, you know that they are going to react.

401
00:37:28,480 --> 00:37:32,200
If you are going to get on a horse, you need to understand that they are going to read

402
00:37:32,200 --> 00:37:42,080
your energy and take cues from you or react badly from you.

403
00:37:42,080 --> 00:37:50,800
Moving yourself into a centered place where you are simply existing, observing, and not

404
00:37:50,800 --> 00:37:57,480
pushing is really crucial in terms of interacting with horses.

405
00:37:57,480 --> 00:38:08,720
For example, if I am getting ready to, and I love animals, I love big animals, so I do

406
00:38:08,720 --> 00:38:14,160
not have a problem, for example, walking into a frown full of horses.

407
00:38:14,160 --> 00:38:18,360
But I need to make sure that I am doing it the right way.

408
00:38:18,360 --> 00:38:19,360
Exactly.

409
00:38:19,360 --> 00:38:29,440
Honestly, that comes with being around large animals in general.

410
00:38:29,440 --> 00:38:31,360
Something you learn growing up with them.

411
00:38:31,360 --> 00:38:37,080
I grew up on a ranch.

412
00:38:37,080 --> 00:38:47,000
I think that often people forget, I mean people react on an energetic level.

413
00:38:47,000 --> 00:38:48,280
We do.

414
00:38:48,280 --> 00:38:50,120
We all do.

415
00:38:50,120 --> 00:38:58,000
A lot of people do not recognize that or make that connection, but we do.

416
00:38:58,000 --> 00:39:07,920
If you walk into any situation, whether it is investigating or a group, a room full of

417
00:39:07,920 --> 00:39:16,000
people, in a lot of ways it is the same skill set.

418
00:39:16,000 --> 00:39:23,800
It is important to recognize that you are part of that process, if nothing else, because

419
00:39:23,800 --> 00:39:27,800
of your reactions.

420
00:39:27,800 --> 00:39:39,720
By just divorcing yourself as an actor in the process, it is sort of like cutting your

421
00:39:39,720 --> 00:39:41,640
nose off to spite your face.

422
00:39:41,640 --> 00:39:42,640
It is.

423
00:39:42,640 --> 00:39:53,200
It is something that we see a lot with this sort of postmodern superficiality, sort of

424
00:39:53,200 --> 00:40:03,800
the plastic society approach that I think many of us in the West, and many of us in

425
00:40:03,800 --> 00:40:12,440
North America in particular, and in the United States in specific, are really, we are inured

426
00:40:12,440 --> 00:40:17,400
within, we are implicated within this process.

427
00:40:17,400 --> 00:40:31,320
The mistaken belief structure is that we as an individual, I am somehow above, separate,

428
00:40:31,320 --> 00:40:34,720
and not part of the world around me.

429
00:40:34,720 --> 00:40:35,720
Yes.

430
00:40:35,720 --> 00:40:39,200
That is a good way of putting it.

431
00:40:39,200 --> 00:40:43,480
It is the idea that we are essentially othering everything.

432
00:40:43,480 --> 00:40:50,680
That might be the other people in the banquet.

433
00:40:50,680 --> 00:40:56,000
It might be the other, for example, interacting with animals as though there is some sort

434
00:40:56,000 --> 00:41:03,960
of other, as opposed to where we are sharing energy on a one-on-one basis.

435
00:41:03,960 --> 00:41:11,420
Then it really becomes the other when it is the paranormal.

436
00:41:11,420 --> 00:41:23,440
Very much so, which is a large part of, we mentioned witchcraft, which is earlier, which

437
00:41:23,440 --> 00:41:31,720
is a large part of what is magic, what is witchcraft.

438
00:41:31,720 --> 00:41:37,440
The whole idea is people who can do something.

439
00:41:37,440 --> 00:41:38,440
Yes.

440
00:41:38,440 --> 00:41:44,320
They affect the environment.

441
00:41:44,320 --> 00:41:49,080
Often in our postmodern society, we say, oh, that cannot be done.

442
00:41:49,080 --> 00:41:53,560
It is just written off.

443
00:41:53,560 --> 00:42:01,360
Affecting the environment, affecting the energies in a room on a fundamental level is exactly

444
00:42:01,360 --> 00:42:02,360
that.

445
00:42:02,360 --> 00:42:03,360
It is.

446
00:42:03,360 --> 00:42:04,360
It is.

447
00:42:04,360 --> 00:42:09,880
It takes on many forms.

448
00:42:09,880 --> 00:42:15,600
Because again, we are dealing with an energetic tool set, these tools can be used for a wide

449
00:42:15,600 --> 00:42:20,320
variety of reasons.

450
00:42:20,320 --> 00:42:25,800
It also depends on the perspective of the person employing the tools or the perspective

451
00:42:25,800 --> 00:42:31,800
of the person who is the beneficiary of the results of the tools to decide whether or

452
00:42:31,800 --> 00:42:33,800
not that is good or bad.

453
00:42:33,800 --> 00:42:35,960
That is true.

454
00:42:35,960 --> 00:42:40,480
It makes me come in full circle in the discussion.

455
00:42:40,480 --> 00:42:49,080
It makes me think a little bit about some of the ancient uses of mirrors.

456
00:42:49,080 --> 00:42:55,160
Most people think of mirrors as a glass object, but basically a very shiny object, whether

457
00:42:55,160 --> 00:43:03,120
it is metal, it can even be stone or whatever, goes back to the ancient Egyptians and the

458
00:43:03,120 --> 00:43:14,000
use of mirrors to travel basically to the other world and back.

459
00:43:14,000 --> 00:43:24,520
The process that they believe that mirrors play in that is very much what in the 21st

460
00:43:24,520 --> 00:43:28,040
century people would call astral projection.

461
00:43:28,040 --> 00:43:29,040
Yes.

462
00:43:29,040 --> 00:43:30,040
Yes.

463
00:43:30,040 --> 00:43:38,280
To me, that is both fascinating and it might actually be laying the groundwork for things

464
00:43:38,280 --> 00:43:42,840
trapped in mirrors or the idea that a part of you goes someplace else and cannot find

465
00:43:42,840 --> 00:43:45,840
its way back.

466
00:43:45,840 --> 00:43:48,720
True.

467
00:43:48,720 --> 00:43:54,680
But the conception that they used was that basically through the use of the technique

468
00:43:54,680 --> 00:44:00,400
with the mirrors that you would be temporarily detached from your body.

469
00:44:00,400 --> 00:44:01,400
Yes.

470
00:44:01,400 --> 00:44:02,400
Trapped.

471
00:44:02,400 --> 00:44:08,400
They really seemed to have the concept of being trapped in the mirror, that it was more

472
00:44:08,400 --> 00:44:15,120
just a tool to use, like getting in your car.

473
00:44:15,120 --> 00:44:29,240
It, one, something that seems to be consistently implied with the study of the ancient world

474
00:44:29,240 --> 00:44:36,200
is that the ancient world may not necessarily have had our technology, but that they had

475
00:44:36,200 --> 00:44:43,640
a highly sophisticated understanding of, for example, what we're talking about, these energetic

476
00:44:43,640 --> 00:44:50,080
processes or a better understanding of what we would call the subconscious or the astral

477
00:44:50,080 --> 00:44:53,480
plane, these types of things.

478
00:44:53,480 --> 00:45:03,560
The things that in so many cases that we here in the West are barely discovering or we have

479
00:45:03,560 --> 00:45:09,120
an infantile knowledge of, if we have any knowledge of it at all.

480
00:45:09,120 --> 00:45:14,800
And one possibility, I'm just throwing this out here, I have no idea what I'm talking

481
00:45:14,800 --> 00:45:15,800
about.

482
00:45:15,800 --> 00:45:16,800
I'm just spitballing.

483
00:45:16,800 --> 00:45:27,280
But certainly with the fall, the monolithic weight of the Roman Empire, which seemed to

484
00:45:27,280 --> 00:45:37,880
place a lot more emphasis on governance and military than it did on inner journey.

485
00:45:37,880 --> 00:45:47,440
And then from there, the collapse of the empire and the loss of so much ancient knowledge

486
00:45:47,440 --> 00:46:03,560
that the remnants of that could be as simple as knowing that, for example, sending the

487
00:46:03,560 --> 00:46:11,040
soul onto a journey into another plane is possible with the mirror, but you might not

488
00:46:11,040 --> 00:46:22,520
have the tools intuitively to bring it back.

489
00:46:22,520 --> 00:46:23,520
I can see that.

490
00:46:23,520 --> 00:46:30,960
And it also might kind of explain sort of that divergence, continued divergence between

491
00:46:30,960 --> 00:46:42,080
East and West, because they did not have the same break in technology and sort of setbacks

492
00:46:42,080 --> 00:46:47,240
in education and knowledge that the West did.

493
00:46:47,240 --> 00:46:53,820
And knowledge that quote was lost in the West still existed for the most part, most of it

494
00:46:53,820 --> 00:47:05,720
that we know of, but existed in the East, in the Near East, in parts of Africa.

495
00:47:05,720 --> 00:47:13,760
But that break, as you just described with Rome and the consequences, that could explain

496
00:47:13,760 --> 00:47:23,360
a lot of that divergence and why perhaps so much fear along with it, whereas other parts

497
00:47:23,360 --> 00:47:30,440
of the world that didn't go through that tumultuous decline and have more continuity seem to view

498
00:47:30,440 --> 00:47:33,800
these things in a more positive light.

499
00:47:33,800 --> 00:47:41,840
That the knowledge of the tool set, the knowledge that these sorts of things are possible existed,

500
00:47:41,840 --> 00:47:50,520
but the precise means of doing it safely or effectively might have been lost in the process.

501
00:47:50,520 --> 00:47:59,360
And you know, I mean, that would be analogous to having a car to drive, but not knowing

502
00:47:59,360 --> 00:48:00,360
how.

503
00:48:00,360 --> 00:48:04,040
Basically, you've lost the key.

504
00:48:04,040 --> 00:48:06,080
Yeah, yeah.

505
00:48:06,080 --> 00:48:14,080
Or you've lost the memory of how to do it, but it still runs, which is actually terrifying.

506
00:48:14,080 --> 00:48:16,400
That's a central crisis.

507
00:48:16,400 --> 00:48:23,160
As you drive over a cliff.

508
00:48:23,160 --> 00:48:32,280
And it is, you know, I think, again, I think that there is also an innate dichotomy.

509
00:48:32,280 --> 00:48:39,000
I think that there's a physical dichotomy in terms of knowledge retained and knowledge

510
00:48:39,000 --> 00:48:40,320
lost.

511
00:48:40,320 --> 00:48:44,880
And with that comes familiarity or fear.

512
00:48:44,880 --> 00:48:50,480
But I think that there is a natural dichotomy that once you begin potentially interacting

513
00:48:50,480 --> 00:48:58,600
with these other realms, that some things are very positive and some things can smack

514
00:48:58,600 --> 00:49:00,760
back.

515
00:49:00,760 --> 00:49:09,000
And part of the ancient knowledge would presumably have involved being able to tell the difference.

516
00:49:09,000 --> 00:49:17,040
But if we're if we're bereft of that knowledge, then all of it could be potentially dangerous

517
00:49:17,040 --> 00:49:21,160
as an idea.

518
00:49:21,160 --> 00:49:22,160
That is true.

519
00:49:22,160 --> 00:49:25,160
Now here's a crack here.

520
00:49:25,160 --> 00:49:30,160
Tell me what you think.

521
00:49:30,160 --> 00:49:36,920
For instance, in voodoo, mirrors are often kept in the kitchen, which, you know, in the

522
00:49:36,920 --> 00:49:39,400
West, we tend not to do that.

523
00:49:39,400 --> 00:49:47,520
But they keep mirrors in the in the kitchen so that ghosts can consume food that is reflected

524
00:49:47,520 --> 00:49:48,520
in the mirror.

525
00:49:48,520 --> 00:49:49,520
Yes.

526
00:49:49,520 --> 00:49:50,520
Yes.

527
00:49:50,520 --> 00:49:58,160
I think that's a fine them and appeasing them, I would assume.

528
00:49:58,160 --> 00:50:02,640
So where do you think like that comes into play?

529
00:50:02,640 --> 00:50:11,960
Of course, you have the coming together of European traditions and African traditions

530
00:50:11,960 --> 00:50:12,960
in that.

531
00:50:12,960 --> 00:50:18,640
So where would you say that fits in with your missing knowledge or?

532
00:50:18,640 --> 00:50:24,760
I do think that it's it certainly hints at something very tantalizing, which is the possibility

533
00:50:24,760 --> 00:50:33,280
that the West African, particularly the Benin religion or animism culture, which is oftentimes

534
00:50:33,280 --> 00:50:47,480
regarded as sort of a primitive or backwards belief structure very far away from the more

535
00:50:47,480 --> 00:50:55,080
quote unquote enlightened ancient religions, for example, Egypt or China or the Indian

536
00:50:55,080 --> 00:50:59,360
subcontinent, so on and so forth.

537
00:50:59,360 --> 00:51:07,920
That it might not be that that are.

538
00:51:07,920 --> 00:51:14,320
Our traditions that that are coming from West Africa may actually be vastly more sophisticated

539
00:51:14,320 --> 00:51:25,000
and and deep into this sort of subconscious archetypal war that that exists.

540
00:51:25,000 --> 00:51:26,520
I think that's really fascinating.

541
00:51:26,520 --> 00:51:35,760
I also think that it really speaks to the.

542
00:51:35,760 --> 00:51:46,520
In many cases, the warmth and the bonds that are implied from not only West African culture,

543
00:51:46,520 --> 00:51:54,360
but it reminds me of similarities of Mayan culture and Latin American pre-Catholic culture

544
00:51:54,360 --> 00:52:05,040
that is reflected in the idea that the dead are simply our family members, that we're

545
00:52:05,040 --> 00:52:09,960
still communing with, we're still talking to, in some cases we're still feeding, we're

546
00:52:09,960 --> 00:52:13,840
still making sure that they're OK.

547
00:52:13,840 --> 00:52:18,160
And that begins a transition.

548
00:52:18,160 --> 00:52:20,560
To me, a really beautiful transition.

549
00:52:20,560 --> 00:52:26,640
When I read that, I actually made me want to go find a mirror and then cut some food.

550
00:52:26,640 --> 00:52:36,840
And I in the idea that from a from a very.

551
00:52:36,840 --> 00:52:44,080
Beautiful and I would say earthy or connective or emotionally warm place.

552
00:52:44,080 --> 00:52:47,200
The idea that you're.

553
00:52:47,200 --> 00:52:53,080
You're not appeasing the spirits as much as you're making sure that your family's fed.

554
00:52:53,080 --> 00:52:54,360
Yes, yes.

555
00:52:54,360 --> 00:52:59,240
And I do, I do really like that.

556
00:52:59,240 --> 00:53:07,360
And throw a monkey wrench into that or something, you know, take a sharp left turn.

557
00:53:07,360 --> 00:53:17,000
Then there was the conception of the Aztecs that mirrors basically were a symbol of war.

558
00:53:17,000 --> 00:53:19,000
Right and.

559
00:53:19,000 --> 00:53:20,000
Duality.

560
00:53:20,000 --> 00:53:22,400
Duality, but I don't think that's a monkey wrench.

561
00:53:22,400 --> 00:53:30,520
I think I think that the commonality that we're seeing with all of the lore is it is

562
00:53:30,520 --> 00:53:35,360
this and that.

563
00:53:35,360 --> 00:53:40,280
Simultaneously it's a Janus fairy.

564
00:53:40,280 --> 00:53:45,800
It's you know, and I was I was wanting to throw this in really quickly and I think it

565
00:53:45,800 --> 00:53:49,720
does say in and we'll come back to the Aztecs and John D.

566
00:53:49,720 --> 00:53:57,640
But the idea that so you know, I think I think I've done an effective job of of mounting

567
00:53:57,640 --> 00:54:02,320
the argument that that so much of this lore is not scary.

568
00:54:02,320 --> 00:54:03,320
It's not.

569
00:54:03,320 --> 00:54:10,240
It's not spooky that there does seem to be an ancient tradition that is associating the

570
00:54:10,240 --> 00:54:15,800
paranormal supernatural and with the idea of the mirrors a portal or a conduit of some

571
00:54:15,800 --> 00:54:19,440
sort involving energy.

572
00:54:19,440 --> 00:54:26,840
These types of things that seems to resonate with our our our minds or spirits, even if

573
00:54:26,840 --> 00:54:33,760
it doesn't make sense to our rational mind, all of these things and that the scary parts

574
00:54:33,760 --> 00:54:38,760
are just us interacting with our subconscious, so on and so forth.

575
00:54:38,760 --> 00:54:43,520
All that to be said, there is one bit of lore, which is the idea that a mirror beside your

576
00:54:43,520 --> 00:54:47,880
bed and steal your soul or that something can come through.

577
00:54:47,880 --> 00:54:51,640
And for the record, I will not have a mirror in my bedroom.

578
00:54:51,640 --> 00:54:54,120
I will not have a mirror next to my bed.

579
00:54:54,120 --> 00:54:59,760
And if I am someplace that I that a mirror is in that situation, I'm going to cover it

580
00:54:59,760 --> 00:55:02,600
because I'm not dealing with that.

581
00:55:02,600 --> 00:55:06,080
And we'll we'll tell the story behind that.

582
00:55:06,080 --> 00:55:07,080
Yes.

583
00:55:07,080 --> 00:55:10,080
Personal experience.

584
00:55:10,080 --> 00:55:16,800
Because there there are and this is again, I think it speaks to the duality there.

585
00:55:16,800 --> 00:55:17,800
There's.

586
00:55:17,800 --> 00:55:28,000
The very beautiful aspects of this portal concept.

587
00:55:28,000 --> 00:55:34,000
And there are very comforting aspects to the supernatural, the paranormal concepts.

588
00:55:34,000 --> 00:55:36,920
There's very peaceful aspects to it.

589
00:55:36,920 --> 00:55:40,920
There are aspects that we simply need to understand our subconscious.

590
00:55:40,920 --> 00:55:47,920
There are also any time that you are dealing with portals.

591
00:55:47,920 --> 00:55:52,480
We are also dealing with the potential of things that may be predatory and or ominous

592
00:55:52,480 --> 00:55:54,760
that are outside of our subconscious.

593
00:55:54,760 --> 00:55:58,040
This is not just a reflection of our subconscious.

594
00:55:58,040 --> 00:56:01,840
There may be something else that is there.

595
00:56:01,840 --> 00:56:02,840
That's true.

596
00:56:02,840 --> 00:56:15,440
And that the question mark and all that, I think, is what is both tantalizing and often.

597
00:56:15,440 --> 00:56:17,400
Creates fear in people.

598
00:56:17,400 --> 00:56:18,400
It does.

599
00:56:18,400 --> 00:56:19,400
It does.

600
00:56:19,400 --> 00:56:32,760
And and certainly a foundation to what is consistently one of the previous or the cheap

601
00:56:32,760 --> 00:56:42,240
list jump scares in a horror movie, which is something reflected behind you in the mirror.

602
00:56:42,240 --> 00:56:43,240
That's true.

603
00:56:43,240 --> 00:56:44,240
That's true.

604
00:56:44,240 --> 00:56:51,840
And there are a few places that those kind of things actually do happen with mirrors

605
00:56:51,840 --> 00:56:56,040
and people see things.

606
00:56:56,040 --> 00:57:02,480
And it does remind me you saying that reminds me again of the movie Prince of Darkness,

607
00:57:02,480 --> 00:57:15,280
where the mirror is the is the main focal point of as a a barrier and a doorway.

608
00:57:15,280 --> 00:57:26,920
To the netherworld that the devil or demon is is held from this world on the other side.

609
00:57:26,920 --> 00:57:38,600
And that that barrier that we take for granted in a lot of ways that this world and that

610
00:57:38,600 --> 00:57:54,040
world are separate very much plays on that, including to the point of, you know, of shriveled

611
00:57:54,040 --> 00:58:02,600
clawed fingers coming through the surface of the mirror and then ultimately, apparently

612
00:58:02,600 --> 00:58:07,640
being a means of time travel.

613
00:58:07,640 --> 00:58:09,360
Yes.

614
00:58:09,360 --> 00:58:14,960
And jumping back really quickly to the the Aztecs, the idea that the mirror was representative

615
00:58:14,960 --> 00:58:19,840
of both fire and water, which I found.

616
00:58:19,840 --> 00:58:29,640
Again, we do keep coming back to this symbol of duality comes back to duality, but duality

617
00:58:29,640 --> 00:58:33,920
that as you break it apart and put it back together, it makes sense.

618
00:58:33,920 --> 00:58:35,400
The mirror is reflective.

619
00:58:35,400 --> 00:58:37,440
It's like reflective water.

620
00:58:37,440 --> 00:58:47,800
The Celts considered the mirror image of a pool of water, a bog, a pond to be a liminal

621
00:58:47,800 --> 00:58:51,000
space and an opening into the underworld.

622
00:58:51,000 --> 00:58:56,960
It appears that the Aztecs were perhaps channeling the same similarities of idea.

623
00:58:56,960 --> 00:59:04,400
In this case, the mirror is is representative of water as well as the elemental subconscious

624
00:59:04,400 --> 00:59:06,440
and magical properties of water.

625
00:59:06,440 --> 00:59:11,520
At the same time, a mirror can be used to focus sunlight.

626
00:59:11,520 --> 00:59:19,120
It should create fire, which is also associated with war.

627
00:59:19,120 --> 00:59:25,200
And a lot of their mirrors were made from obsidian, which is basically volcanic glass,

628
00:59:25,200 --> 00:59:32,520
which I'm sure they realized made association of the glass coming from the volcanoes and

629
00:59:32,520 --> 00:59:33,520
fire.

630
00:59:33,520 --> 00:59:38,680
So you have this obsidian that is born of fire.

631
00:59:38,680 --> 00:59:47,880
Reflects fire, focuses light into fire, but shimmers like the surface of water.

632
00:59:47,880 --> 00:59:52,040
Yes, which is really, it is beautiful.

633
00:59:52,040 --> 00:59:57,600
I love this because it's really forcing.

634
00:59:57,600 --> 01:00:00,000
It's an unboxing.

635
01:00:00,000 --> 01:00:02,960
It's forcing us to.

636
01:00:02,960 --> 01:00:05,600
Meme reference.

637
01:00:05,600 --> 01:00:14,280
It is forcing the mind to get outside of it's this or it's that.

638
01:00:14,280 --> 01:00:18,000
Right, right.

639
01:00:18,000 --> 01:00:25,000
And that sense of duality is probably a good segue into discussing John Dee.

640
01:00:25,000 --> 01:00:33,040
Aside from the fact that he used an Aztec mirror to describe.

641
01:00:33,040 --> 01:00:37,480
He did, and John Dee is one of our heroes, I think.

642
01:00:37,480 --> 01:00:40,800
I think it's fair to say.

643
01:00:40,800 --> 01:00:47,080
He is born in 1527 and died in 1608 or 9.

644
01:00:47,080 --> 01:00:51,480
He actually died, we don't know when he died and we don't know where he's buried.

645
01:00:51,480 --> 01:00:58,720
No, because he had a falling out with the king after he saved him.

646
01:00:58,720 --> 01:01:01,200
James had that habit.

647
01:01:01,200 --> 01:01:04,400
I get that.

648
01:01:04,400 --> 01:01:11,320
Oh, and John Dee for people who are unfamiliar was an English polymath.

649
01:01:11,320 --> 01:01:19,120
He was court astronomer and astrologer and advisor to Queen Elizabeth I.

650
01:01:19,120 --> 01:01:25,120
And his resume included but was not limited to mathematician, astronomer, astrologer,

651
01:01:25,120 --> 01:01:29,320
teacher, occultist, and alchemist.

652
01:01:29,320 --> 01:01:31,320
And.

653
01:01:31,320 --> 01:01:36,640
And by some accounts, which Hunter.

654
01:01:36,640 --> 01:01:39,960
Yes, and by other accounts of which.

655
01:01:39,960 --> 01:01:40,960
Yes.

656
01:01:40,960 --> 01:01:49,560
So, you know, again, you know, it kind of just depends on which side you're on.

657
01:01:49,560 --> 01:01:51,040
It really, really does.

658
01:01:51,040 --> 01:01:57,320
I am fascinated by the fact that his grave site is unknown.

659
01:01:57,320 --> 01:02:01,000
It's very vivid for him.

660
01:02:01,000 --> 01:02:03,600
This made and fascinated.

661
01:02:03,600 --> 01:02:13,040
I was also very pleased in doing some additional research for the episode to realize that the

662
01:02:13,040 --> 01:02:15,640
John Dee was of Welsh ancestry.

663
01:02:15,640 --> 01:02:16,640
Yes.

664
01:02:16,640 --> 01:02:20,280
Not, so I'm not surprised about that.

665
01:02:20,280 --> 01:02:25,240
And very excited as well for personal reasons.

666
01:02:25,240 --> 01:02:34,760
And John Dee is as really as far as I'm concerned, as close as you can get to the archetypal

667
01:02:34,760 --> 01:02:41,800
magician wizard in our current historical narrative.

668
01:02:41,800 --> 01:02:45,960
I think that is very fair to say.

669
01:02:45,960 --> 01:02:52,340
And it's in some ways it's perplexing that he's not as well known as some others such

670
01:02:52,340 --> 01:02:56,520
as Nostradamus, who we will mention in a moment as well.

671
01:02:56,520 --> 01:03:03,520
Yeah, but he I mean.

672
01:03:03,520 --> 01:03:12,120
He served Elizabeth the first.

673
01:03:12,120 --> 01:03:19,160
Using his occultist powers a very successfully.

674
01:03:19,160 --> 01:03:31,680
And went on his basically sabbatical and to consternation of Elizabeth as well as other

675
01:03:31,680 --> 01:03:41,880
regions in Europe who either viewed him with open arms or suspiciously as a spy.

676
01:03:41,880 --> 01:03:52,240
And then came back a bit of a rocky relationship with Elizabeth after that, but did serve James.

677
01:03:52,240 --> 01:04:07,520
And if stories are to be believed that through use of his obsidian mirror was able to reveal

678
01:04:07,520 --> 01:04:09,480
the gunpowder plot.

679
01:04:09,480 --> 01:04:11,240
Interesting.

680
01:04:11,240 --> 01:04:17,840
And this this obsidian mirror is believed and pretty securely believe to have been of

681
01:04:17,840 --> 01:04:19,840
Aztec origin.

682
01:04:19,840 --> 01:04:30,320
Yes, they they've determined that through a scientific examination that the obsidian

683
01:04:30,320 --> 01:04:38,240
came from a particular volcano that I think is about 30 or 35 miles from Mexico City.

684
01:04:38,240 --> 01:04:39,300
Yes.

685
01:04:39,300 --> 01:04:46,280
So it made its way back with the Spanish and he procured it.

686
01:04:46,280 --> 01:04:52,520
And I think it sits in one one of a museum in London, I believe, doesn't it?

687
01:04:52,520 --> 01:04:53,520
Quite possibly.

688
01:04:53,520 --> 01:04:57,920
I'm not 100% sure, but it is on believe it is on display.

689
01:04:57,920 --> 01:05:04,160
And I'm just curious as to what John D did to procure it.

690
01:05:04,160 --> 01:05:08,120
I think that could be a story in and of itself.

691
01:05:08,120 --> 01:05:15,240
I've read a couple of articles previously that basically there's some conjecture that

692
01:05:15,240 --> 01:05:20,280
he's procured it through a particular conquested or but they really don't know.

693
01:05:20,280 --> 01:05:27,280
They're really kind of perplexed how he ended up in England.

694
01:05:27,280 --> 01:05:39,080
But that his divination using a screen would be was very successful and accurate as those

695
01:05:39,080 --> 01:05:41,360
things went.

696
01:05:41,360 --> 01:05:50,800
So so coming into that and just digging into scrying is a subject because the mirrors,

697
01:05:50,800 --> 01:05:55,520
there's a number of things that are used for scrying, but mirrors are certainly a dominant

698
01:05:55,520 --> 01:05:56,520
tool.

699
01:05:56,520 --> 01:06:02,520
And the question is, how?

700
01:06:02,520 --> 01:06:06,960
How does someone scry?

701
01:06:06,960 --> 01:06:15,600
Well, to be in some ways, you can sort of equate it to the discussion earlier with yoga

702
01:06:15,600 --> 01:06:30,400
and confronting the unknown, the unknown versus the unconscious and yoga that things are revealed

703
01:06:30,400 --> 01:06:41,160
and from a purely objective scientific basis, you would say it's peridelia.

704
01:06:41,160 --> 01:06:51,880
It's just manifestations of the subconscious, etc. that you're seeing, you know, either

705
01:06:51,880 --> 01:07:00,320
tricks of light in the mirror or say Nostradamus with all of his predictions, he used a bowl,

706
01:07:00,320 --> 01:07:06,440
a dark bowl, and I can't remember, I think it was metal, but I may be wrong with water.

707
01:07:06,440 --> 01:07:13,040
And he would see images in the water.

708
01:07:13,040 --> 01:07:21,960
And this is very much the same ideas as crystal balls as people, you know, have seen them

709
01:07:21,960 --> 01:07:27,080
used by, you know, fortune tellers, etc.

710
01:07:27,080 --> 01:07:31,560
It's the same concept.

711
01:07:31,560 --> 01:07:42,560
And I think it's one of the things that I'm a little sad that we essentially lost beginning

712
01:07:42,560 --> 01:07:50,000
with James the first and then continued to lose as we moved into the Cromwell era.

713
01:07:50,000 --> 01:08:07,560
Oh, no more Christmas is that prior to James the first, we certainly, I think it would

714
01:08:07,560 --> 01:08:17,480
be reasonable to say that Elizabeth was really at the pinnacle of this brave new world in

715
01:08:17,480 --> 01:08:25,360
which these types of art, and I would classify it as an art more than a science, but that

716
01:08:25,360 --> 01:08:35,800
these types of arts were recognized, were held in comparatively high esteem.

717
01:08:35,800 --> 01:08:44,440
It was not, you know, something that was looked askance at, obviously, of a memory serves,

718
01:08:44,440 --> 01:08:54,280
and it was utilized astrology to choose Elizabeth's coronation date for her for an auspicious

719
01:08:54,280 --> 01:08:55,520
day.

720
01:08:55,520 --> 01:08:57,600
Yes.

721
01:08:57,600 --> 01:08:59,080
And then we see how well that worked out.

722
01:08:59,080 --> 01:09:04,360
One of the most successful monarchs in all of English history.

723
01:09:04,360 --> 01:09:13,560
And at the same time, this is Queen Elizabeth was not someone that we think of as flighty

724
01:09:13,560 --> 01:09:21,160
or superstitious or capricious in, you know, off on flights of fancy and following crazy

725
01:09:21,160 --> 01:09:22,160
ideas.

726
01:09:22,160 --> 01:09:26,000
Here was a woman who was extremely grounded in her leadership.

727
01:09:26,000 --> 01:09:36,640
She was grounded in the military and the economic needs of her burgeoning empire, and at the

728
01:09:36,640 --> 01:09:44,520
same time, very comfortable with a favorite court astrologer and with James, beginning

729
01:09:44,520 --> 01:09:51,000
with James and then continuing on into the Civil War, slash Puritan Wars, etc.

730
01:09:51,000 --> 01:10:01,340
We just began this monumental shift away from that mindset that it could be both.

731
01:10:01,340 --> 01:10:16,240
We could be perfectly grounded, rational leader who also without contradiction embraces these

732
01:10:16,240 --> 01:10:24,140
arts that less sense to someone who is not skilled in them.

733
01:10:24,140 --> 01:10:25,140
Very true.

734
01:10:25,140 --> 01:10:36,240
I think that it's a matter that my guess is just she viewed it as one more set of tools.

735
01:10:36,240 --> 01:10:43,720
And one that seems as with, you know, some of these situations, some of the my understanding

736
01:10:43,720 --> 01:10:51,080
is that she would consult John Dee in terms of potential assassination attempts on her,

737
01:10:51,080 --> 01:10:53,080
of which there were many.

738
01:10:53,080 --> 01:10:54,080
Yes.

739
01:10:54,080 --> 01:11:00,000
And, etc. and presumably she was doing so because he had a good track record.

740
01:11:00,000 --> 01:11:10,820
I would assume and I mean, obviously she had a very long reign that did was not ended by

741
01:11:10,820 --> 01:11:12,840
violence.

742
01:11:12,840 --> 01:11:28,240
So I think that astutely she was looking at probably the advice from on all fronts and

743
01:11:28,240 --> 01:11:37,480
then trying and then making that decision of what made sense based on all the information.

744
01:11:37,480 --> 01:11:47,520
And again, John Dee is a little more complicated than being an astrologer.

745
01:11:47,520 --> 01:11:59,320
He was so gifted and skilled in so many areas that I think I would assume that he came at

746
01:11:59,320 --> 01:12:12,200
things with all of those disciplines at once, which most people don't do granted that probably

747
01:12:12,200 --> 01:12:24,880
ended up with a more balanced sense than we would normally give credit to when we hear

748
01:12:24,880 --> 01:12:27,000
the word astrology.

749
01:12:27,000 --> 01:12:36,160
I think that is extremely fair and something that is to be really fascinating about the

750
01:12:36,160 --> 01:12:41,920
aspect of really the fusion between science and art.

751
01:12:41,920 --> 01:12:48,220
And typically in our in our very modern world or postmodern world now, we separate those

752
01:12:48,220 --> 01:12:52,720
two into very far apart boxes.

753
01:12:52,720 --> 01:13:02,040
And our cultural mind and I think that that does a disservice to both.

754
01:13:02,040 --> 01:13:16,960
You look at the alchemical roots of individuals like Isaac Newton, you look at the scientific

755
01:13:16,960 --> 01:13:23,440
roots of individuals like John Dee, and you see that there is a fusion as we're coming

756
01:13:23,440 --> 01:13:33,040
into the early modern era in England and as England is becoming the British Empire, which

757
01:13:33,040 --> 01:13:43,580
is apparently or allegedly a term coined by John Dee, the British Empire, is a beautiful

758
01:13:43,580 --> 01:13:55,000
fusion of science, rationality and the esoteric arts that we don't really hold particular

759
01:13:55,000 --> 01:13:58,160
space for at this time.

760
01:13:58,160 --> 01:14:03,560
No, and really, when you think about it, to be perfectly honest, in a lot of ways, there's

761
01:14:03,560 --> 01:14:11,560
not a lot of difference between John Dee and Isaac Newton as far as their interests in

762
01:14:11,560 --> 01:14:14,720
the things that they researched.

763
01:14:14,720 --> 01:14:19,040
Very similar.

764
01:14:19,040 --> 01:14:24,480
The most notable difference is that, you know, is that Dee ended up holding a position of

765
01:14:24,480 --> 01:14:32,360
court astrologer, whereas Newton was at university.

766
01:14:32,360 --> 01:14:45,360
But they both were pursuing alchemy and these esoteric arts as well as science.

767
01:14:45,360 --> 01:14:53,480
They were, which is something that in the cursory reviews and our cursory understanding,

768
01:14:53,480 --> 01:14:59,080
sort of our grade school understanding of Sir Isaac Newton, it's usually left out of

769
01:14:59,080 --> 01:15:00,080
the process.

770
01:15:00,080 --> 01:15:09,960
We've got, you know, Isaac inventing calculus and having a figurative or perhaps literal

771
01:15:09,960 --> 01:15:13,560
apple drop on his head to give us the gravity.

772
01:15:13,560 --> 01:15:15,640
And that's usually about as far as it goes.

773
01:15:15,640 --> 01:15:27,000
So digging for these esoteric arts is, I think, on an initial review can be very unsettling

774
01:15:27,000 --> 01:15:36,000
for individuals who aren't prepared for their hyper rational scientific heroes to be meddling

775
01:15:36,000 --> 01:15:37,960
around in this kind of stuff.

776
01:15:37,960 --> 01:15:42,000
But it wasn't by accident.

777
01:15:42,000 --> 01:15:43,000
Very true.

778
01:15:43,000 --> 01:15:46,200
Very true.

779
01:15:46,200 --> 01:15:55,000
I want to switch gears a little bit and kind of do compare and contrast with Dee with Nostradamus.

780
01:15:55,000 --> 01:15:59,960
I think it is fascinating.

781
01:15:59,960 --> 01:16:06,800
And Nostradamus is a household name, but most people don't know a lot about what it was

782
01:16:06,800 --> 01:16:08,600
he was actually doing.

783
01:16:08,600 --> 01:16:09,600
True.

784
01:16:09,600 --> 01:16:16,280
And again, in a lot of ways, he fits into this same box with Newton and Dee.

785
01:16:16,280 --> 01:16:19,320
He was a physician.

786
01:16:19,320 --> 01:16:26,960
So he was a man of medicine at the time, as medicine was at the time.

787
01:16:26,960 --> 01:16:32,120
He actually treated plague victims.

788
01:16:32,120 --> 01:16:50,680
But he would use the divining arts through mirrors and water.

789
01:16:50,680 --> 01:16:58,120
And he hid this pretty much because it could get you killed.

790
01:16:58,120 --> 01:17:12,960
But similar to Dee, he did end up in the favor of the queen because his reputation did get

791
01:17:12,960 --> 01:17:22,200
around even though he was trying not to get a foul with the law and the crown.

792
01:17:22,200 --> 01:17:33,040
And he made a prediction of how or what could be interpreted as a prediction of how the

793
01:17:33,040 --> 01:17:34,880
king would die.

794
01:17:34,880 --> 01:17:46,560
And King Henry died jousting with a splinter through the eye.

795
01:17:46,560 --> 01:18:00,680
And of course, anyone familiar with the quatrains of Nostradamus, they are poetic, vague in

796
01:18:00,680 --> 01:18:04,120
a lot of ways, and certainly open to interpretation.

797
01:18:04,120 --> 01:18:12,320
But that one is interesting because while a lot of them people say he predicted this

798
01:18:12,320 --> 01:18:19,480
400 years in the future, this was something that happened in his lifetime.

799
01:18:19,480 --> 01:18:24,680
And it certainly caught the attention of the queen.

800
01:18:24,680 --> 01:18:28,320
And then it tended to bear itself out.

801
01:18:28,320 --> 01:18:36,860
But he was still very careful to not portray himself as actually predicting the future

802
01:18:36,860 --> 01:18:43,240
because he didn't want to run afoul of the church, et cetera, either.

803
01:18:43,240 --> 01:18:47,240
And that's why we do have his writings that are so vague.

804
01:18:47,240 --> 01:18:54,280
And now people say, oh, he predicted 911, he predicted this, he predicted that, which

805
01:18:54,280 --> 01:18:59,960
you read them and it's like, it could be this or it could be that.

806
01:18:59,960 --> 01:19:02,960
It could describe a lot of things that have happened.

807
01:19:02,960 --> 01:19:26,680
But in essence, he had a very similar, if not personality, career path as Dee.

808
01:19:26,680 --> 01:19:34,160
But I think the reason that he is so well known now is just because he wrote down the

809
01:19:34,160 --> 01:19:35,840
quatrains.

810
01:19:35,840 --> 01:19:37,680
I think that's very fair.

811
01:19:37,680 --> 01:19:52,640
And my general understanding is probably mid-'80s, late-'80s, there started to be semi-historical

812
01:19:52,640 --> 01:20:05,440
boundaries with a bit of a lean toward the gratuitous in terms of exciting the imagination

813
01:20:05,440 --> 01:20:14,240
about Nostradamus, about his predictions, about the fact that here's a character, a

814
01:20:14,240 --> 01:20:22,280
personality from the Renaissance who has these predictions that are speaking to us about

815
01:20:22,280 --> 01:20:24,960
something today.

816
01:20:24,960 --> 01:20:35,400
And almost salacious nature of magical voyeurism in that sense that it's getting you to watch

817
01:20:35,400 --> 01:20:40,440
the Mountain Dew commercial to get to the next part where Nostradamus is going to reveal

818
01:20:40,440 --> 01:20:45,360
your future as well.

819
01:20:45,360 --> 01:20:58,560
And I think that is the romanticism of it is that if he was accurate, even with just

820
01:20:58,560 --> 01:21:07,440
a percentage of his quatrains, then it might be possible that we all might define our future

821
01:21:07,440 --> 01:21:10,760
if we are so accurate.

822
01:21:10,760 --> 01:21:13,160
And that's both exciting and frightening.

823
01:21:13,160 --> 01:21:22,040
I think because, and again, coming back to the mirrors and then the association scrying,

824
01:21:22,040 --> 01:21:28,120
we're looking at mirrors utilized for defining the future, to looking into the future and

825
01:21:28,120 --> 01:21:30,280
saying what's going to happen.

826
01:21:30,280 --> 01:21:42,200
And that is something that is extraordinarily enticing, equal parts frightening.

827
01:21:42,200 --> 01:21:43,200
It is.

828
01:21:43,200 --> 01:21:44,640
I'm curious your thought on this.

829
01:21:44,640 --> 01:21:55,080
How would you view scrying with mirrors or mirror-like surfaces, all included, versus

830
01:21:55,080 --> 01:22:00,760
other divination that is still done, say tea leaves and things like that, chicken bones,

831
01:22:00,760 --> 01:22:02,760
things like that?

832
01:22:02,760 --> 01:22:03,760
It is interesting.

833
01:22:03,760 --> 01:22:09,400
And I don't have a good answer in that regard.

834
01:22:09,400 --> 01:22:24,240
The commonality that is, I think, both wise and confounding simultaneously is that if

835
01:22:24,240 --> 01:22:29,920
you yourself happen to be unfamiliar with the practice, and most of us are unfamiliar

836
01:22:29,920 --> 01:22:36,280
with the practice, we could have two people in front of us using any of the potential

837
01:22:36,280 --> 01:23:02,320
methods, scrying mirror, crystal ball, et cetera, that we, the chicken bones, it doesn't

838
01:23:02,320 --> 01:23:03,680
really matter.

839
01:23:03,680 --> 01:23:11,040
And one person could be doing it correctly, and another person could just be making stuff

840
01:23:11,040 --> 01:23:12,040
up.

841
01:23:12,040 --> 01:23:17,440
And we on the outside wouldn't necessarily be able to tell the difference.

842
01:23:17,440 --> 01:23:20,920
I mean, that's true.

843
01:23:20,920 --> 01:23:31,400
I wonder if there's something more unique with a mirrored surface that interacts with

844
01:23:31,400 --> 01:23:32,400
our subconscious.

845
01:23:32,400 --> 01:23:36,320
That, I think, is fair.

846
01:23:36,320 --> 01:23:44,320
I think, again, it is associated with that sense of portal, that sense of a window into

847
01:23:44,320 --> 01:23:46,800
another world.

848
01:23:46,800 --> 01:23:59,680
And there are aspects of mirror work that are hard to duplicate in other forms of divination.

849
01:23:59,680 --> 01:24:08,680
Your tea leaves, your chicken bones, your variety of divination tools.

850
01:24:08,680 --> 01:24:14,240
It's not a reflective or immersive portal.

851
01:24:14,240 --> 01:24:15,240
That's true.

852
01:24:15,240 --> 01:24:22,640
The sense of three dimension, I think, has an effect on the brain and perhaps intuitive

853
01:24:22,640 --> 01:24:25,880
powers, I'm not sure.

854
01:24:25,880 --> 01:24:32,720
And there's the aspects of potential connection with the subconscious, which is extraordinary.

855
01:24:32,720 --> 01:24:39,320
But then there is that next step, which is you may be connecting with something that's

856
01:24:39,320 --> 01:24:42,240
no longer internal.

857
01:24:42,240 --> 01:24:43,240
That's true.

858
01:24:43,240 --> 01:24:53,200
And as soon as you make the leap that you are interacting with even the fates to see

859
01:24:53,200 --> 01:25:06,760
the future, you open that possibility that it's something else, that you have no control

860
01:25:06,760 --> 01:25:13,400
over and may have its own intelligence and free will.

861
01:25:13,400 --> 01:25:19,440
It reminds me of the moment with the volunteer in Fellowship of the Ring.

862
01:25:19,440 --> 01:25:21,800
They're not all crowded for.

863
01:25:21,800 --> 01:25:24,560
Maybe you don't know who may be watching.

864
01:25:24,560 --> 01:25:25,560
Exactly.

865
01:25:25,560 --> 01:25:26,560
Exactly.

866
01:25:26,560 --> 01:25:37,680
And it's certainly a practice that has made its way into the modern New Age and Wiccan

867
01:25:37,680 --> 01:25:39,680
communities.

868
01:25:39,680 --> 01:25:46,120
Yes, it absolutely has.

869
01:25:46,120 --> 01:25:49,560
With a variety of reactions and responses.

870
01:25:49,560 --> 01:25:56,280
I think there is something innately engaging.

871
01:25:56,280 --> 01:26:03,920
There's something archetypal about the work that we recognize it.

872
01:26:03,920 --> 01:26:05,560
And we don't just recognize it.

873
01:26:05,560 --> 01:26:14,240
It doesn't just resonate because we watched Wizard of Oz.

874
01:26:14,240 --> 01:26:22,960
But I think that when the original audiences watched Wizard of Oz, those moments resonated

875
01:26:22,960 --> 01:26:25,560
on an archetypal level as well.

876
01:26:25,560 --> 01:26:34,280
The idea that there are powers, there are esoteric arts, there are ways of doing things

877
01:26:34,280 --> 01:26:39,280
or affecting the world around us or seeing things that could not otherwise be seen.

878
01:26:39,280 --> 01:26:49,200
And that this is part of the human story, albeit one that has largely been lost in modernity.

879
01:26:49,200 --> 01:26:56,880
And so we resort to fiction and dramatization and novelization to explore these things.

880
01:26:56,880 --> 01:27:06,800
Because it's very difficult to explore these things in a more traditional or educational

881
01:27:06,800 --> 01:27:07,800
realms.

882
01:27:07,800 --> 01:27:08,800
True.

883
01:27:08,800 --> 01:27:20,320
That said, many of the New Age and Wiccan practices involving these things are, for

884
01:27:20,320 --> 01:27:28,360
better or for worse, detached from the actual lineage of ancient knowledge, despite what

885
01:27:28,360 --> 01:27:30,760
might be said.

886
01:27:30,760 --> 01:27:41,600
And that in both cases, much, though not all, of Wicca is very modern, was developed in

887
01:27:41,600 --> 01:27:51,600
the 20th century, and is certainly a read on, in many cases, Celtic paganism, as well

888
01:27:51,600 --> 01:28:00,720
as other typically European, although not limited to European.

889
01:28:00,720 --> 01:28:10,360
In some cases, pre-Christian practices, or in other cases, folk magic, lore that was

890
01:28:10,360 --> 01:28:18,440
in opposition with the authoritarian aspects of the more overarching church.

891
01:28:18,440 --> 01:28:27,920
So there is an element of reactionary, reactionism, and as a result of that.

892
01:28:27,920 --> 01:28:36,240
There is also the aspect that it has to be recognized as a newer religion than it appears

893
01:28:36,240 --> 01:28:41,800
or it feels like, just based on its historical reality.

894
01:28:41,800 --> 01:28:47,400
Yeah, I agree with you there.

895
01:28:47,400 --> 01:28:56,920
Before I forget, I was going to mention, see your thoughts, the significance of the convent

896
01:28:56,920 --> 01:28:59,920
mirror.

897
01:28:59,920 --> 01:29:17,920
Besides conveniently spotting that 18th wheeler creeping up on my left bumper.

898
01:29:17,920 --> 01:29:25,040
I do find it interesting that they're associated with demons and driving.

899
01:29:25,040 --> 01:29:28,040
Well, that's fair.

900
01:29:28,040 --> 01:29:31,040
Very, very fair.

901
01:29:31,040 --> 01:29:38,160
Drive around town today, that's for sure.

902
01:29:38,160 --> 01:29:47,480
No, I think it's interesting, to say the least.

903
01:29:47,480 --> 01:29:51,840
I am personally fascinated.

904
01:29:51,840 --> 01:30:01,600
The thing that really stood out to me about many of these aspects with mirrors, and again,

905
01:30:01,600 --> 01:30:04,720
I'm going to resort to a dichotomy.

906
01:30:04,720 --> 01:30:18,080
On one hand, something that we see is a mystical obsession with mirrors in an era when mirrors

907
01:30:18,080 --> 01:30:24,320
were not common.

908
01:30:24,320 --> 01:30:35,820
I think that has to be taken into account at a time when, certainly we'll just take the

909
01:30:35,820 --> 01:30:43,800
Renaissance period, at a point when the technology had developed in order that a very effective

910
01:30:43,800 --> 01:30:52,160
mirrors could be created, mirrors that were concave, mirrors that were convex, mirrors

911
01:30:52,160 --> 01:31:02,240
that were flat, could be created and were almost de facto put into use in varying ways

912
01:31:02,240 --> 01:31:07,640
associated with the esoteric arts, associated with conjuring, associated with divination,

913
01:31:07,640 --> 01:31:13,760
associated with reaching into portals of other realms, comes into play.

914
01:31:13,760 --> 01:31:21,560
Certainly the everyday people who were far removed from this technology couldn't help

915
01:31:21,560 --> 01:31:29,160
but look at this stuff very differently than we would look at it today.

916
01:31:29,160 --> 01:31:30,160
True.

917
01:31:30,160 --> 01:31:41,120
It is automatically easy to simply relegate the esoteric art aspect or the magical quality

918
01:31:41,120 --> 01:31:46,720
to primitive superstitious people, so on and so forth.

919
01:31:46,720 --> 01:31:53,520
I also think that that would be a mistake because we seem to consistently see odd and

920
01:31:53,520 --> 01:32:03,520
interesting things archetypally and then also in actuality happening around these mirrors

921
01:32:03,520 --> 01:32:04,520
through the ages.

922
01:32:04,520 --> 01:32:14,000
I think, again, the answer is both, but as to the demons with concave or convex mirrors,

923
01:32:14,000 --> 01:32:22,360
I'm a bit of a loss, but I do like to have one on my side panel on the truck.

924
01:32:22,360 --> 01:32:25,640
I'm right there with you on that one.

925
01:32:25,640 --> 01:32:33,280
Now, what you just said pretty well leads into we have to talk about Bloody Mary a little

926
01:32:33,280 --> 01:32:34,280
bit.

927
01:32:34,280 --> 01:32:37,280
I love Bloody Mary.

928
01:32:37,280 --> 01:32:39,440
She's spooky.

929
01:32:39,440 --> 01:32:48,280
The antecedents to the Bloody Mary game actually go back a very long ways.

930
01:32:48,280 --> 01:32:49,280
They do.

931
01:32:49,280 --> 01:33:02,200
The current iteration of Bloody Mary almost exists really just an urban legend as teenagers

932
01:33:02,200 --> 01:33:07,920
trying to spook each other out on sleepovers.

933
01:33:07,920 --> 01:33:14,040
That's really the construct that we have for Bloody Mary.

934
01:33:14,040 --> 01:33:18,960
The bits and pieces of the lore tend to vary, but for people who are not familiar, basically

935
01:33:18,960 --> 01:33:23,800
you say Bloody Mary three times while looking into a mirror and she appears over your shoulder,

936
01:33:23,800 --> 01:33:27,160
but only in the mirror.

937
01:33:27,160 --> 01:33:29,680
Then she may answer questions.

938
01:33:29,680 --> 01:33:30,680
Yes.

939
01:33:30,680 --> 01:33:46,080
Basically, it's a bit like summoning a genie with a mirror and albeit unhappy dead spirit

940
01:33:46,080 --> 01:33:58,480
slash demonic slash poltergeist aspect that you're conjuring and then you're harnessing

941
01:33:58,480 --> 01:34:01,240
what you've conjured.

942
01:34:01,240 --> 01:34:05,480
Which tends to not engender affection.

943
01:34:05,480 --> 01:34:15,560
No, it's the idea that and certainly there is an unspoken implication in the story, which

944
01:34:15,560 --> 01:34:29,880
is if you're in theory that there was someone long ago who was very good at conjuring and

945
01:34:29,880 --> 01:34:35,200
harnessing and so that if you were skilled in the arts, you could do this sort of thing

946
01:34:35,200 --> 01:34:49,120
safely but chances are if you're a 14 year old kid in your suburban parent's bathroom,

947
01:34:49,120 --> 01:34:59,360
the likelihood that you have the requisite skill is unlikely so you're taking a grave

948
01:34:59,360 --> 01:35:03,320
risk.

949
01:35:03,320 --> 01:35:13,640
And 14 year old girls, these iterations of what became Bloody Mary go back hundreds of

950
01:35:13,640 --> 01:35:20,880
years and tend to revolve around young girls trying to figure out who they're going to

951
01:35:20,880 --> 01:35:22,200
marry.

952
01:35:22,200 --> 01:35:28,600
Yes, which is a consistent theme and divination.

953
01:35:28,600 --> 01:35:39,320
It is, it is, and it is also what they believe started the Salem witch trials basically.

954
01:35:39,320 --> 01:35:50,920
Into a bowl of water with broken eggs, which really is the surface of the water is again

955
01:35:50,920 --> 01:35:52,920
using a mirror.

956
01:35:52,920 --> 01:35:56,360
Yeah, it is.

957
01:35:56,360 --> 01:36:06,840
You know, I just realized that if they did it wrong back in Salem, they might have accidentally

958
01:36:06,840 --> 01:36:18,040
conjured Bloody Mary and she just, you know, wreaked havoc and initiated the witch trials.

959
01:36:18,040 --> 01:36:19,560
That's not an official theory.

960
01:36:19,560 --> 01:36:21,000
No, it is not.

961
01:36:21,000 --> 01:36:26,820
I am.

962
01:36:26,820 --> 01:36:33,560
But certainly certainly be a discussionary tale about about doing this.

963
01:36:33,560 --> 01:36:41,880
Well, it also speaks to the fact that in order to be in order to be a witch hunter, you have

964
01:36:41,880 --> 01:36:46,580
to be a pretty good witch yourself.

965
01:36:46,580 --> 01:36:47,920
Although they would never admit it.

966
01:36:47,920 --> 01:36:49,480
No, absolutely not.

967
01:36:49,480 --> 01:36:53,480
I mean, the ear of the Ozarks, it's called being a power doctor.

968
01:36:53,480 --> 01:36:54,480
That's right.

969
01:36:54,480 --> 01:36:59,480
Because you don't use the term witch.

970
01:36:59,480 --> 01:37:03,480
And that being said,

971
01:37:03,480 --> 01:37:21,480
another use of the mirrors is that part of the lore is that a mirror will turn dark in the presence of an evil witch or evil spirit.

972
01:37:21,480 --> 01:37:29,480
That is so it's like a comfort.

973
01:37:29,480 --> 01:37:40,480
So again, duality, either the mirrors going to go dark and you don't see anything, or you see the evil spirit through the mirror, and you have to worry about it.

974
01:37:40,480 --> 01:37:43,480
One or the other.

975
01:37:43,480 --> 01:37:52,480
Either. So, obviously the there's the scrying aspect and the long standing

976
01:37:52,480 --> 01:37:58,480
divination for one's future partner.

977
01:37:58,480 --> 01:38:14,480
But we you know and we, that is that is typically the the impetus behind a dumb supper. That is the the impetus for Apple divination Halloween, and the use of apples in Halloween.

978
01:38:14,480 --> 01:38:18,480
And traditions like bobbing for apples.

979
01:38:18,480 --> 01:38:33,480
Now, coming back to Bloody Mary. I largely know Bloody Mary as simply the urban legend, and also from one episode on supernatural which are like,

980
01:38:33,480 --> 01:38:54,480
the idea of a ghost, tormented soul, existing within the mirror waiting, unhappily to answer your questions, don't let her off the leash.

981
01:38:54,480 --> 01:39:04,480
That's a pretty dark territory. Well, I mean, you're you're one step away from middle juice, you know, times.

982
01:39:04,480 --> 01:39:10,480
And you don't have to use a mirror either.

983
01:39:10,480 --> 01:39:19,480
Which I'm sure you know I you know, my guess is that Bloody Mary is the sort of the inspiration for that.

984
01:39:19,480 --> 01:39:22,480
Right.

985
01:39:22,480 --> 01:39:41,480
It's to me it is, it is fascinating, and it's, you know, it goes into a pretty large pantheon of

986
01:39:41,480 --> 01:39:53,480
humans, spirits, dangerous fey that are traditionally female.

987
01:39:53,480 --> 01:39:58,480
Oh, there are the fair share that are males.

988
01:39:58,480 --> 01:40:02,480
That's true.

989
01:40:02,480 --> 01:40:08,480
Is there is there a lot of tradition of adolescent boys doing Bloody Mary or is it mostly girls.

990
01:40:08,480 --> 01:40:11,480
I think.

991
01:40:11,480 --> 01:40:17,480
Obviously, I've never done it but that just seemed like a bad idea.

992
01:40:17,480 --> 01:40:25,480
I just always thought it was stupid myself.

993
01:40:25,480 --> 01:40:27,480
I'm just being candid.

994
01:40:27,480 --> 01:40:29,480
Yeah, fair.

995
01:40:29,480 --> 01:40:33,480
I think it's very fair. I was.

996
01:40:33,480 --> 01:40:45,480
Just in terms of the, you know, reaching into the, the other realm and I was contemplating the banshee.

997
01:40:45,480 --> 01:41:03,480
And, and also the faith. The traditional, both the Greek and the Norse traditions of the faiths that the, you know, reminders to me of these things.

998
01:41:03,480 --> 01:41:08,480
Yeah, the winter.

999
01:41:08,480 --> 01:41:20,480
The Jewish power that all of these things just remind me a little bit of time in, you know, divination, death.

1000
01:41:20,480 --> 01:41:44,480
And, and, and even though we're dealing we're dealing with near spirits. The, there is an aspect of it that reminds me of the say the idea that you're, you're you're interacting with the other, you're interacting with the other world, and it could really go badly.

1001
01:41:44,480 --> 01:41:49,480
Yes, it really could.

1002
01:41:49,480 --> 01:41:52,480
And,

1003
01:41:52,480 --> 01:41:56,480
as a bit of a curve ball.

1004
01:41:56,480 --> 01:42:08,480
And I threw in disgust her before we started all this. While we research the idea of natural holograms.

1005
01:42:08,480 --> 01:42:13,480
That one is very odd.

1006
01:42:13,480 --> 01:42:37,480
But really what fascinated me about this and basically it's developing theory in theory in psychology that basically is giving more quote a modern language to the idea of thought form really.

1007
01:42:37,480 --> 01:42:40,480
So, essentially a top up.

1008
01:42:40,480 --> 01:42:43,480
Yes.

1009
01:42:43,480 --> 01:43:04,480
But it goes a step further that there's manifestations that are reflections of the living world, not necessarily the dead, but of, and not even necessarily of living beings like doppelgangers.

1010
01:43:04,480 --> 01:43:26,480
But that our interaction with reality creates a two dimensional, or actually three dimensional image out of our subconscious.

1011
01:43:26,480 --> 01:43:40,480
Well, apparitions or whatever we're seeing could actually be from our own subconscious a little bit what you were discussing with yoga.

1012
01:43:40,480 --> 01:44:03,480
And so it's a little bit of a twist and the idea that what we think of holograms like, you know, the image of Princess Leia Star Wars as a hologram or the one in the new Blade Runner Ruby.

1013
01:44:03,480 --> 01:44:15,480
It's all done with focused light and so forth. But theoretically, there's fair meaning with idea that this could happen.

1014
01:44:15,480 --> 01:44:18,480
And it's seen.

1015
01:44:18,480 --> 01:44:25,480
But without a focus of light, which to me is no different than when people see an apparition.

1016
01:44:25,480 --> 01:44:36,480
I think that's very true and it's help me everyone can help me, you're my only hope.

1017
01:44:36,480 --> 01:44:39,480
For the record, I can do that entire spiel.

1018
01:44:39,480 --> 01:44:44,480
I have no doubt.

1019
01:44:44,480 --> 01:44:46,480
I know.

1020
01:44:46,480 --> 01:45:12,480
But I won't. But in case anybody, you know, challenges me on it, I can, I can respond. But what we're essentially talking about is a is an organic projection or naturally occurring projection, which to me is a fascinating concept, I think, certainly

1021
01:45:12,480 --> 01:45:18,480
in terms of my study I haven't necessarily encountered a physical or visual projection.

1022
01:45:18,480 --> 01:45:32,480
But I think that a number of what we classify as poltergeist activities are projections from intense energetic projection from the subconscious.

1023
01:45:32,480 --> 01:45:49,480
And this to me this gets into really first of all really interesting territory, but also troubling territory not troubling to me, because I deal with duality and weird contradictory dichotomy.

1024
01:45:49,480 --> 01:46:13,480
And that's part of for fun. But for for individuals who are really locked into a particular theory or opinion based on activity. This can be presented as a, as a way of explaining away all sentient paranormal activity.

1025
01:46:13,480 --> 01:46:17,480
Right, and I'm not suggesting that.

1026
01:46:17,480 --> 01:46:39,480
But I think that, and I think the interesting aspect of this for this conversation is that the basically the barrier between our mind and the outside world

1027
01:46:39,480 --> 01:46:44,480
works exactly the same way as the surface of the mirror.

1028
01:46:44,480 --> 01:46:58,480
And I think that is a fascinating perspective that is is well worth consideration I think it's well worth consideration in the, the realm of investigation.

1029
01:46:58,480 --> 01:47:12,480
And it's, it's one of those areas. Again, you know, embracing the messiness of the duality that you take this into consideration.

1030
01:47:12,480 --> 01:47:20,480
And then also these other

1031
01:47:20,480 --> 01:47:28,480
aspects of of parallel as well. So it could be this, it could be that it could be something else entirely.

1032
01:47:28,480 --> 01:47:30,480
It or both.

1033
01:47:30,480 --> 01:47:32,480
Or both.

1034
01:47:32,480 --> 01:47:40,480
And I think that is really fascinating because it really begins.

1035
01:47:40,480 --> 01:47:47,480
An internal any mental dimensional shift in the way of analysis.

1036
01:47:47,480 --> 01:47:52,480
I think so, it, at least it's food for thought.

1037
01:47:52,480 --> 01:48:01,480
I think maybe now we shift to mirrors that are in those arts.

1038
01:48:01,480 --> 01:48:04,480
Which one would you like to start with.

1039
01:48:04,480 --> 01:48:12,480
Do you want to start with your, your own experience or say that for last.

1040
01:48:12,480 --> 01:48:26,480
We'll start with the land mansion we had the opportunity to visit the land mansion very informally, not as an investigator, just just just walked in.

1041
01:48:26,480 --> 01:48:33,480
And the land mansion is in the is in St. Louis.

1042
01:48:33,480 --> 01:48:43,480
And it was constructed in 1890 by the lymph family, the lymph brewery.

1043
01:48:43,480 --> 01:48:50,480
Beer, and prior to prohibition it was busy building St. Louis for decades.

1044
01:48:50,480 --> 01:49:08,480
And it actually was the biggest brewer, some people said the biggest brewer brewery in the country, certainly in St. Louis, and sir, son, and hyzer Bush, but they were Johnny come lately in the game.

1045
01:49:08,480 --> 01:49:14,480
And a lot of their success owed to the downfall of the lamps.

1046
01:49:14,480 --> 01:49:21,480
Yes, yes in the little family was clearly played by deep tragedy.

1047
01:49:21,480 --> 01:49:23,480
Yes.

1048
01:49:23,480 --> 01:49:46,480
And the house is open to the public, both as a boutique hotel, and also as a high end restaurant, and as well as a as an event venue. And they also have investigations there so it's increasingly well known for its paranormal activity.

1049
01:49:46,480 --> 01:49:49,480
Yes, it's gained quite a reputation the last few years.

1050
01:49:49,480 --> 01:49:59,480
And I would based on my limited time at the mansion, would sign up on that.

1051
01:49:59,480 --> 01:50:08,480
It was very intrepid and had the chance to go in there and

1052
01:50:08,480 --> 01:50:23,480
look around and go up to the second floor. And the second floor is the first the main floor for the bedrooms, and the bedrooms were many of the deaths took place.

1053
01:50:23,480 --> 01:50:47,480
There's a very at the time and mid morning, very odd, intense push pull energy and heaviness strong heaviness. And it was also notable there were a number of mirrors, some of them very oddly shaped one particularly long rectangular mirror that was in the second floor land on

1054
01:50:47,480 --> 01:51:00,480
the wall of the second floor landing some equally interesting family portraits on the wall that also could be described as a bit unsettling.

1055
01:51:00,480 --> 01:51:24,480
But overall my, my two impressions for the space was simply being impressed by its extraordinary beauty, and also a sense of, especially on the second floor feeling as though I was intruding.

1056
01:51:24,480 --> 01:51:35,480
That. I mean, especially considering the everything that happened in the house and clean the number of suicides.

1057
01:51:35,480 --> 01:51:37,480
I can understand that.

1058
01:51:37,480 --> 01:51:52,480
Yeah, it was, it was, it was a space that I was really excited about being in just because of its historicity and for its beauty. At the same time I kind of wanted to not be in the space in a very short amount of time.

1059
01:51:52,480 --> 01:52:05,480
And then it was on because the sense of unsettling, the unsettling sense tended to follow through the day.

1060
01:52:05,480 --> 01:52:08,480
Even if you left, even after I left. Yes.

1061
01:52:08,480 --> 01:52:19,480
And then, and this is the this is we get to the mirror part, because two o'clock the next morning I do think it was interesting it was in the two o'clock hour.

1062
01:52:19,480 --> 01:52:29,480
Because I don't really believe in the wishing hour but I did note the time that staying in an Airbnb in St. Louis.

1063
01:52:29,480 --> 01:52:42,480
Not within close proximity to the Lemp Mansion, but still within St. Louis so you're, you're in the same town.

1064
01:52:42,480 --> 01:52:47,480
And my dog

1065
01:52:47,480 --> 01:53:08,480
suddenly became incredibly agitated took between two to two 30 in the morning, barking at the mirror, which was interestingly enough placed right next to the bed became extremely agitated was was whining was barking, opening up was bouncing on the bed,

1066
01:53:08,480 --> 01:53:18,480
and then he would look at the mirror and then react as though he was seeing something and was doing it very consistently it was specifically focused on this mirror.

1067
01:53:18,480 --> 01:53:29,480
There was another mirror in the room that was on the door. But this large standalone

1068
01:53:29,480 --> 01:53:46,480
person size height mirror next to the bed was the one that he was reaching out about. And this was third, third or fourth night that he been there and then sleeping on the bed, and then in the bedroom at night.

1069
01:53:46,480 --> 01:54:03,480
And had never acted like this prior, and very unsettling. And I'm lying there half awake half asleep. Going, What are you doing. And then I start thinking about two things one.

1070
01:54:03,480 --> 01:54:26,480
One, how does the supernatural sky, my puppy act in regards to supernatural entities and or paranormal entities, and to the mirrors at the Lent mansion, and that weird sense of antagonism, but allure that was existing on the second floor.

1071
01:54:26,480 --> 01:54:35,480
And then I jumped out of bed and grabbed a quilt and threw it over the mirror.

1072
01:54:35,480 --> 01:54:44,480
Well, who knows he might have kept you for losing your soul. He might have and that would have been sad.

1073
01:54:44,480 --> 01:54:53,480
I, I rather, I seem to be rather attached to my soul and glad I still have it.

1074
01:54:53,480 --> 01:55:11,480
I mean, it's, it's definitely an interesting I mean it's definitely interesting and you know, unsettling because there doesn't seem to be a good alternate, alternate explanation for doing that.

1075
01:55:11,480 --> 01:55:22,480
You know, the way I'm approaching it at this point is it simply documented as a thing that occurred.

1076
01:55:22,480 --> 01:55:35,480
And I, on one hand I'm, I am hesitant to attach too much one way or the other, but I can tell you at 230 in the morning with sky barking at the mirror.

1077
01:55:35,480 --> 01:55:41,480
I'm highly uncharacteristically, and after the after having been in the mansion earlier.

1078
01:55:41,480 --> 01:55:47,480
My mind did put a lot of things together perhaps accurately perhaps inaccurately.

1079
01:55:47,480 --> 01:55:56,480
And I don't get creeped out too much, I did find that unsettling.

1080
01:55:56,480 --> 01:56:03,480
I probably would, you know, in that, in those circumstances, and you left it covered.

1081
01:56:03,480 --> 01:56:07,480
Yes, yes, I was there for another two days.

1082
01:56:07,480 --> 01:56:14,480
And I, for the record I was not about to take that blanket off.

1083
01:56:14,480 --> 01:56:24,480
I was, I, again, I just, I was, it felt like Gandalf with the volunteer.

1084
01:56:24,480 --> 01:56:29,480
You just don't know who might be watching, and was very unsettling.

1085
01:56:29,480 --> 01:56:36,480
Did not like that. And so, Saturday morning, I think it was.

1086
01:56:36,480 --> 01:56:47,480
Packed everything up, got ready to go and very expressly packed everything else to the truck.

1087
01:56:47,480 --> 01:57:02,480
Did my my last checks my last look under the bed my last looking closet for anything that might have rolled under there or I might have forgotten so on and so forth check the kitchen it was a lovely Airbnb for the record near older at 66.

1088
01:57:02,480 --> 01:57:06,480
It was Ted Drew's frozen custard.

1089
01:57:06,480 --> 01:57:15,480
But it was made sure that everything else was taken care of, ready to lock everything up.

1090
01:57:15,480 --> 01:57:26,480
Check the doors, etc. and everything in the truck took sky out put him in the truck, walked back in.

1091
01:57:26,480 --> 01:57:32,480
And pulled the blanket off immediately turned around and walked out of the room.

1092
01:57:32,480 --> 01:57:37,480
We are not spending time in front of this, whatever y'all are doing.

1093
01:57:37,480 --> 01:57:40,480
You're going to do it without me in the room.

1094
01:57:40,480 --> 01:57:44,480
Well, if nothing else.

1095
01:57:44,480 --> 01:57:49,480
You empathize with people who've had experiences with mirrors.

1096
01:57:49,480 --> 01:58:03,480
Absolutely. Absolutely. And I think that's very important. I think that this is, again, and this, this goes across the board with anyone who's had paranormal experiences.

1097
01:58:03,480 --> 01:58:23,480
One's personal experience is one's personal experience, and that may be very unsettling.

1098
01:58:23,480 --> 01:58:45,480
But the experiences you're not and you and I both had experiences it's were very clearly outside of ourselves. True, and, and that happens and and your story actually makes me think of experience I've had not quite as dramatic, but at a historic

1099
01:58:45,480 --> 01:58:58,480
time in the job one area that we used to do investigations at. It's not open for investigations at this point, because it's being used as a private home again.

1100
01:58:58,480 --> 01:59:14,480
The john wise house and beautiful Victorian, and twice family were sort of rads to riches situation and made a lot of money in the mining in the area.

1101
01:59:14,480 --> 01:59:25,480
And beautiful beautiful parlor that is probably the size of the.

1102
01:59:25,480 --> 01:59:30,480
My front parlor living room and dining room together at least or more.

1103
01:59:30,480 --> 01:59:34,480
Wow.

1104
01:59:34,480 --> 01:59:46,480
Beautiful antique mirror that contemporaneous to the house being built, built about 1890.

1105
01:59:46,480 --> 01:59:52,480
That is about 10 feet tall.

1106
01:59:52,480 --> 02:00:00,480
Maybe even 12 feet tall, and probably six feet wide.

1107
02:00:00,480 --> 02:00:05,480
Very heavy wooden frame.

1108
02:00:05,480 --> 02:00:25,480
And there were, we would have people who going through the room or so forth, would say that they saw a girl dancing in the mirror, and would turn, and you know of course no one's there.

1109
02:00:25,480 --> 02:00:42,480
I never saw the girl, but I have been in front of it and seen movement that seem to be contained in the mirror.

1110
02:00:42,480 --> 02:00:45,480
Really explain that one.

1111
02:00:45,480 --> 02:00:54,480
And I always had the feeling when in that room, I did not want my back to that mirror.

1112
02:00:54,480 --> 02:01:01,480
Right I can't really explain the reason for it because I absolutely love the marriage, absolutely gorgeous.

1113
02:01:01,480 --> 02:01:09,480
But I was fine, as long as I, as long as my back wasn't to it.

1114
02:01:09,480 --> 02:01:18,480
So what do you, what do you make of that just anecdotally of that phenomena or experientially.

1115
02:01:18,480 --> 02:01:24,480
I do think there was some sort of energy around the mirror.

1116
02:01:24,480 --> 02:01:34,480
And, you know, I guess another aspect of this is that particularly

1117
02:01:34,480 --> 02:01:37,480
a silver mill mirror.

1118
02:01:37,480 --> 02:01:44,480
And this is a very large one with glass

1119
02:01:44,480 --> 02:01:48,480
current.

1120
02:01:48,480 --> 02:01:53,480
If it's silvered current won't pass through it.

1121
02:01:53,480 --> 02:02:00,480
I don't know if it could be some sort of electrical phenomena around it.

1122
02:02:00,480 --> 02:02:08,480
That seems to make it a focal point.

1123
02:02:08,480 --> 02:02:21,480
I do think that there were two different times over the years that I saw move movement in the mirror that there was no there was no, no one else around and it wasn't me moving.

1124
02:02:21,480 --> 02:02:30,480
First time I just chopped it up to trick of the eye. Second time it was like, wait a minute, I've seen that before.

1125
02:02:30,480 --> 02:02:37,480
But it wasn't formed to where I could say it looked like a person moving or anything it was the sense of moving.

1126
02:02:37,480 --> 02:02:41,480
The house also

1127
02:02:41,480 --> 02:03:03,480
was known to people see movement in other areas in the house as well catch a lot of movement and shadow man a hat man actually was caught on video in the house, actually moving through

1128
02:03:03,480 --> 02:03:07,480
the mirror.

1129
02:03:07,480 --> 02:03:17,480
And through the room that the mirrors in, but on that when it was caught it was on the opposite side of the room but I don't know.

1130
02:03:17,480 --> 02:03:19,480
Wow.

1131
02:03:19,480 --> 02:03:22,480
It's neat to contemplate. It is also.

1132
02:03:22,480 --> 02:03:28,480
There is as there have been with so many of the things we've talked about tonight.

1133
02:03:28,480 --> 02:03:46,480
It is unsettling. Yes, and and I'm not particularly superstitious about mirrors, even with any or anything that that is the that is the one mirror that at times I was unsettled by even though I absolutely love it, because it's gorgeous,

1134
02:03:46,480 --> 02:03:52,480
but can't explain that one.

1135
02:03:52,480 --> 02:04:13,480
Then of course there there's there's the, the, the tail well before we get to sort of the more famous buildings. One other one to discuss is actually a location that we do investigations at an event that your house, and

1136
02:04:13,480 --> 02:04:22,480
I'll give you a disclosure this did not happen while I was there anything but the owner told me about it.

1137
02:04:22,480 --> 02:04:33,480
And happened. A few months ago, she and some friends were there, and a couple of her friends decided to do an EVP session.

1138
02:04:33,480 --> 02:04:40,480
And, as you know, it is full of antiques.

1139
02:04:40,480 --> 02:04:44,480
And the owner's done a wonderful job curating.

1140
02:04:44,480 --> 02:04:46,480
Yes.

1141
02:04:46,480 --> 02:04:55,480
And she's got a mirror in the parlor that and in fact she said I don't know anything about it she she bought it at an antique stores has no idea.

1142
02:04:55,480 --> 02:05:04,480
She's I'm not even sure that it's really that all it's my guess it's probably from the 40s or 50s so it's not like it's, you know, 150 years old that kind of thing.

1143
02:05:04,480 --> 02:05:12,480
But she said they were sitting there and while they're doing this she was kind of almost spacing off, getting bored.

1144
02:05:12,480 --> 02:05:22,480
And she's watching. She's seeing opposite the mirror. And she notices that the mirror.

1145
02:05:22,480 --> 02:05:36,480
It's turning black.

1146
02:05:36,480 --> 02:05:48,480
And then, and then she sends me one that she's like an hour later, you know after they're done everything she goes back in and sits in the same position and it's reflecting fine.

1147
02:05:48,480 --> 02:05:58,480
And it's not even that was just colored, or I think that the entire surface.

1148
02:05:58,480 --> 02:06:02,480
What tarnished black.

1149
02:06:02,480 --> 02:06:06,480
And there is more associated with that.

1150
02:06:06,480 --> 02:06:20,480
There is it's the Lord tends to say that that would indicate the presence of either an evil witch or a malevolent spirit or something.

1151
02:06:20,480 --> 02:06:36,480
Which, you know, certainly have not encountered there, but certainly can't explain it either I mean certainly some things happen there that are hard to explain, including a vacuum cleaner running that's not plugged in.

1152
02:06:36,480 --> 02:06:39,480
Like that.

1153
02:06:39,480 --> 02:06:42,480
Yeah.

1154
02:06:42,480 --> 02:06:56,480
Very very unclear. I mean the the house is haunted. That's, yes. And certainly some of our experiences I know we went in, you I know.

1155
02:06:56,480 --> 02:07:03,480
We know we went in and

1156
02:07:03,480 --> 02:07:06,480
pushed back on Noah pretty hard.

1157
02:07:06,480 --> 02:07:08,480
Yeah.

1158
02:07:08,480 --> 02:07:13,480
It did.

1159
02:07:13,480 --> 02:07:28,480
That was in it and you know, Noah's Noah's one of those blessed or unfortunate souls that highly active locations tend to push back on him pretty hard at the moment.

1160
02:07:28,480 --> 02:07:30,480
They change the time to.

1161
02:07:30,480 --> 02:07:34,480
Yeah, but that's not uncommon with adolescents.

1162
02:07:34,480 --> 02:07:39,480
No, it's not.

1163
02:07:39,480 --> 02:07:57,480
It does tend to happen more to adolescents so yeah definitely there's activity there and some that makes sense and some that's a little harder to explain like vacuum cleaner in the mirror I can't really explain either one of the rationality so

1164
02:07:57,480 --> 02:08:11,480
yeah, I guess. Yeah, those are those are interesting combinations of course and Noah having an interesting experience at the ballhouse which was not dissimilar to his experience at the Kendrick house.

1165
02:08:11,480 --> 02:08:15,480
That's true. That's true. I forgot about that.

1166
02:08:15,480 --> 02:08:22,480
Basically splitting headache that would end the second he stepped out of the building.

1167
02:08:22,480 --> 02:08:29,480
And in candidness I tend to at times,

1168
02:08:29,480 --> 02:08:40,480
have a physical reaction in a location that seems to correlate with how someone passed, you know.

1169
02:08:40,480 --> 02:08:42,480
Yes.

1170
02:08:42,480 --> 02:09:00,480
In the sense of not being able to breathe with someone that had a breathing problem or, you know, pain in an area, correlate into an injury etc so physical reactions do happen.

1171
02:09:00,480 --> 02:09:03,480
They do. And they do.

1172
02:09:03,480 --> 02:09:08,480
And that's occupational hazard of our work.

1173
02:09:08,480 --> 02:09:10,480
It is, it is.

1174
02:09:10,480 --> 02:09:14,480
Now then we,

1175
02:09:14,480 --> 02:09:24,480
you know, of course, there's a lot of buzz with the Crescent Hotel be, you know, as one of the most haunted places in America it certainly has.

1176
02:09:24,480 --> 02:09:35,480
It has benefited from paranormal television and documentaries over the last 20 years with its reputation.

1177
02:09:35,480 --> 02:09:40,480
But it does in founded.

1178
02:09:40,480 --> 02:09:44,480
Well founded, but it has its own mirror story.

1179
02:09:44,480 --> 02:09:51,480
And that one. I'm less familiar with I'm familiar with a number of the hauntings.

1180
02:09:51,480 --> 02:09:52,480
Yeah.

1181
02:09:52,480 --> 02:09:54,480
With the, the crime.

1182
02:09:54,480 --> 02:10:08,480
I, and I mean I've not experienced it or anything but I you know the story goes is that the image of a woman is seen in the lobby mirror.

1183
02:10:08,480 --> 02:10:09,480
Interesting.

1184
02:10:09,480 --> 02:10:18,480
I, I, I'm still fascinated by the bat owl, I was too busy looking at the bat owls.

1185
02:10:18,480 --> 02:10:24,480
It's interesting to hear the lobby.

1186
02:10:24,480 --> 02:10:28,480
But I love the Crescent Hotel is built in 1886.

1187
02:10:28,480 --> 02:10:34,480
And a very had an extremely varied history.

1188
02:10:34,480 --> 02:10:51,480
Certainly as a Victorian and warrior era hotel as a girl's school as a pseudo hospital for cancer patients to go to die.

1189
02:10:51,480 --> 02:11:08,480
And the hotel was typically locked away in the servants quarters, screaming in agony for a short period of time and then late 1930s early 1940s before the owner was parted off to the penitentiary for mail fraud, because they couldn't get him.

1190
02:11:08,480 --> 02:11:27,480
And it's, it's, it is a fascinating place, one of the most beloved experiences that I ever had was at the Crescent Hotel, and it was because it was me and it freaked me out for about a year and a half and then since then I've been back more than a dozen times

1191
02:11:27,480 --> 02:11:33,480
trying to replicate it to see what would happen and it's been very peaceful since then.

1192
02:11:33,480 --> 02:11:38,480
But, and in part, you weren't.

1193
02:11:38,480 --> 02:11:46,480
You weren't expecting it and as I recall you weren't very familiar with the haunted lore of the building at that time.

1194
02:11:46,480 --> 02:11:58,480
Not at all. I was what I had no, no knowledge of the hardest aspects and this was 2008.

1195
02:11:58,480 --> 02:12:07,480
So, it was, and I wasn't paying any attention to ghost shows. So, no, I had no clue.

1196
02:12:07,480 --> 02:12:18,480
But I do know that I'm standing directly over my left shoulder on the sky bar balcony, and that person was not happy with my presence.

1197
02:12:18,480 --> 02:12:23,480
That it happens, it happens sometimes.

1198
02:12:23,480 --> 02:12:30,480
And most of the time ghosts seem to like me okay, or just

1199
02:12:30,480 --> 02:12:35,480
extraordinarily ambivalent to my presence which I'm fine with.

1200
02:12:35,480 --> 02:12:43,480
And, but in the same sense, coming back to the reference to horses.

1201
02:12:43,480 --> 02:12:55,480
I'm standing in a barn full of horses, I'm standing in a corral full of horses. I want them to be ambiguous to my presence.

1202
02:12:55,480 --> 02:13:01,480
You know, and I approach, I approach most things in the paranormal and the normal that way.

1203
02:13:01,480 --> 02:13:04,480
Yes.

1204
02:13:04,480 --> 02:13:07,480
And

1205
02:13:07,480 --> 02:13:20,480
And who knows, there's a wide variety of reasons that whomever or whatever it was on the balcony hated my guts but something about me, you didn't like.

1206
02:13:20,480 --> 02:13:22,480
But you didn't see anything in the mirror.

1207
02:13:22,480 --> 02:13:27,480
Did not see anything in the mirror, did not see anything over my left shoulder and trust me I would.

1208
02:13:27,480 --> 02:13:36,480
But whatever was there was so absolutely terrifying that I was scared to get into the elevator, and instead ran down the stairs.

1209
02:13:36,480 --> 02:13:38,480
You mean you ran.

1210
02:13:38,480 --> 02:13:40,480
I hurried.

1211
02:13:40,480 --> 02:13:42,480
Okay.

1212
02:13:42,480 --> 02:13:47,480
You power watch.

1213
02:13:47,480 --> 02:13:51,480
My heart rate was very elevated before I even got to the stairs.

1214
02:13:51,480 --> 02:13:53,480
That's fair.

1215
02:13:53,480 --> 02:13:57,480
Whatever it was.

1216
02:13:57,480 --> 02:14:03,480
I am confident saying it was not my subconscious.

1217
02:14:03,480 --> 02:14:09,480
And I'm also confident in saying that initiated a fight or flight response.

1218
02:14:09,480 --> 02:14:18,480
And that that does happen occasionally not often. I mean, at least not often for me.

1219
02:14:18,480 --> 02:14:21,480
But it can happen.

1220
02:14:21,480 --> 02:14:34,480
And then another example of haunted or magical mirror in the Ozarks is that one of our favorite locations, the Coleman theater in Miami, Oklahoma.

1221
02:14:34,480 --> 02:14:37,480
Yes, Coleman theater.

1222
02:14:37,480 --> 02:14:46,480
Absolutely Gordon's location. I recommend you check it out. It's a route 66 stop and built 1929.

1223
02:14:46,480 --> 02:14:53,480
And fascinating.

1224
02:14:53,480 --> 02:15:02,480
Fascinating structure, lots of history of the location before 1929, as well.

1225
02:15:02,480 --> 02:15:16,480
And with that, I am still taken by the Spanish colonial revival exterior and the Versailles inspired interior.

1226
02:15:16,480 --> 02:15:18,480
Thank you, Mr. Coleman.

1227
02:15:18,480 --> 02:15:20,480
Yes.

1228
02:15:20,480 --> 02:15:27,480
Yes, George Coleman made a statement and and and then so it's seemingly well.

1229
02:15:27,480 --> 02:15:39,480
I will recall the first time that our producer Alex was in there he he actually stopped and said I I've never been in a building like this since I was at Versailles.

1230
02:15:39,480 --> 02:15:47,480
Well, that's not a coincidence.

1231
02:15:47,480 --> 02:15:58,480
It's extraordinary. And, and if memory serves the the mirror lore that's associated with the Coleman is in the green room.

1232
02:15:58,480 --> 02:16:02,480
Yes.

1233
02:16:02,480 --> 02:16:18,480
You recall, when you're in the green room.

1234
02:16:18,480 --> 02:16:23,480
There's a gold guilt framed mirror on the wall.

1235
02:16:23,480 --> 02:16:28,480
And very, very nice mirror very attractive.

1236
02:16:28,480 --> 02:16:33,480
Not huge.

1237
02:16:33,480 --> 02:16:41,480
I'd say maybe three feet by two, roughly, maybe slightly larger.

1238
02:16:41,480 --> 02:16:58,480
And a number of people over the years I've not had any it's, I've not had any experience with the mirror, but a number of people over the years have had the experience of looking into the mirror and seeing the reflection of a ballerina.

1239
02:16:58,480 --> 02:16:59,480
Yes.

1240
02:16:59,480 --> 02:17:03,480
Yes. And then turn around and no one's there.

1241
02:17:03,480 --> 02:17:18,480
Which is, it's very interesting, I, there's a lot of activity that associated with the green room and it's, it is in the basement underneath the stage.

1242
02:17:18,480 --> 02:17:34,480
And I have every reason to be unsettled or creeped out by the space for the record and I've granted I've been there with, you know, in groups I haven't been down there by myself to just hang out.

1243
02:17:34,480 --> 02:17:38,480
It, for me personally, it has not been unsettling.

1244
02:17:38,480 --> 02:17:52,480
It really has. There's been, I think, one time over the years that I've been in there that kind of had a heavy feeling, but nothing extraordinary for my experience.

1245
02:17:52,480 --> 02:17:56,480
And again I haven't seen the ballerina. I.

1246
02:17:56,480 --> 02:18:00,480
Every time I go down there I hope I do, but I haven't.

1247
02:18:00,480 --> 02:18:09,480
Actually I, I'm more fascinated by the mirrors and lobbying myself.

1248
02:18:09,480 --> 02:18:14,480
True, true. Very large years.

1249
02:18:14,480 --> 02:18:16,480
Yeah.

1250
02:18:16,480 --> 02:18:17,480
Yeah.

1251
02:18:17,480 --> 02:18:19,480
Yeah.

1252
02:18:19,480 --> 02:18:38,480
And not necessarily haunted but then you you add to that, that actually pretty much opposite one of the large mirrors in the lobby is the portrait of George Coleman, who built the theater.

1253
02:18:38,480 --> 02:18:42,480
And it's under glass.

1254
02:18:42,480 --> 02:18:44,480
It's a photo.

1255
02:18:44,480 --> 02:18:47,480
And his eyes follow you.

1256
02:18:47,480 --> 02:18:49,480
Yeah.

1257
02:18:49,480 --> 02:18:50,480
There's.

1258
02:18:50,480 --> 02:18:59,480
And of course you've got the glass of over the photo which is a mirror is a mirror.

1259
02:18:59,480 --> 02:19:05,480
Yeah, it is a little unsettling how that photo follows you.

1260
02:19:05,480 --> 02:19:14,480
There's, and of course, one of the notable spirits haunting the common theater is George Coleman.

1261
02:19:14,480 --> 02:19:16,480
Yes, yes.

1262
02:19:16,480 --> 02:19:22,480
Yes, and I do believe I have heard him.

1263
02:19:22,480 --> 02:19:25,480
Complaining about the phone ringing.

1264
02:19:25,480 --> 02:19:38,480
There is a trail of energy in that lobby space.

1265
02:19:38,480 --> 02:19:55,480
There is and, and, to be honest, I've seen shadow men through their multiple times, including in the lobby area as well as coming down the stairs from the mezzanine.

1266
02:19:55,480 --> 02:20:06,480
And then there's been various people who have been said they were pushed on those stairs.

1267
02:20:06,480 --> 02:20:09,480
It's.

1268
02:20:09,480 --> 02:20:17,480
To me it just is you know based on my experiences with a with a with a space.

1269
02:20:17,480 --> 02:20:28,480
The, the green room basement feels very ordinary does not feel like space that is out of space.

1270
02:20:28,480 --> 02:20:31,480
No, it doesn't.

1271
02:20:31,480 --> 02:20:33,480
But the lobby does.

1272
02:20:33,480 --> 02:20:55,480
It does, and everywhere where there, there's, you have either, you know, people have been pushed on the stairs, where shadow men are seeing George Coleman's portrait, and are all spots that are reflected from the mirrors.

1273
02:20:55,480 --> 02:21:08,480
Yes, they are. It's just there is a there's a lot of energy movement throughout that space. It's not necessarily negative.

1274
02:21:08,480 --> 02:21:12,480
No, but there is definitely movement.

1275
02:21:12,480 --> 02:21:26,480
And I find that really interesting. Actually one of one of the photos of us for Darko's arcs is taken on the second floor of the lobby. That's true. That's true.

1276
02:21:26,480 --> 02:21:42,480
And many of our social media a lot. It's used quite a bit for advertising the show and so forth so. And actually I think there was a mirror.

1277
02:21:42,480 --> 02:21:47,480
There's mirrors all over.

1278
02:21:47,480 --> 02:21:57,480
Yes, and, and, and, and appropriately so it's based on beside but yeah, very fascinating.

1279
02:21:57,480 --> 02:22:02,480
And I but I love the space.

1280
02:22:02,480 --> 02:22:04,480
I do, I do.

1281
02:22:04,480 --> 02:22:17,480
And I definitely will risk the mirrors again to go back so I'll be to well either for an investigation or presentation, or just go to see something that's playing at the Coleman.

1282
02:22:17,480 --> 02:22:34,480
Exactly, and definitely recommend checking that out. And they give daily tours, and not even scheduled if you just go in they will take you through all four stories, so.

1283
02:22:34,480 --> 02:22:35,480
Yeah.

1284
02:22:35,480 --> 02:22:38,480
Yes, it's definitely worth it.

1285
02:22:38,480 --> 02:22:42,480
That'd be a good place to to end.

1286
02:22:42,480 --> 02:22:51,480
But we want to remind everyone, not to forget to check out upcoming events and merchandise at Darko's arts calm and paranormal science lab calm.

1287
02:22:51,480 --> 02:22:58,480
Thank you again to always buying books and beard engine brewing company for helping to bring the dark goes to everyone.

1288
02:22:58,480 --> 02:23:15,480
In this episode we're going to be discussing beasts and monsters, catch the dark those are podcasts on Branson podcast network, Apple podcasts, Spotify, Amazon music, Google podcasts, sub stack, or about any other podcast platform.

1289
02:23:15,480 --> 02:23:32,480
Thank you everyone and remember, there are no easy answers in the dark goes.