1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:07,320 Hey guys, welcome to the first episode of the uninvested podcast. My name is Crockett Callaway. I'm Sahil Seth 2 00:00:07,680 --> 00:00:11,040 And today we're gonna be kicking off the inaugural episode of the podcast 3 00:00:11,240 --> 00:00:16,280 Why and invested to be completely honest for two broke college students would have any money in the game 4 00:00:16,320 --> 00:00:20,040 The only thing we have invested in the venture capital space is our own interest 5 00:00:20,040 --> 00:00:24,040 And so every episode we're gonna be breaking down exciting things that are happening in the space 6 00:00:24,480 --> 00:00:28,920 Really interesting investments that have recently happened and really just general venture capital and investing news 7 00:00:28,920 --> 00:00:35,360 So what are we talking about today? So today we're gonna be talking about Adobe's acquisition of figma for those for those of you 8 00:00:35,360 --> 00:00:39,940 That don't know Adobe is really just the grandfather of everything design, you know Photoshop 9 00:00:40,640 --> 00:00:43,720 Lightroom all these applications and they just bought, you know 10 00:00:43,720 --> 00:00:50,300 Possibly one of the heart with the hottest startups figma for 20 billion dollars and something really want to get in here is how can they 11 00:00:50,300 --> 00:00:56,600 Justify this sticker price of 20 billion dollars. It's it's interesting, you know, we've seen before they have they raised nearly 12 00:00:56,600 --> 00:01:03,520 300 and I think 38 million dollars in funding and to date the revenue is not at that 13 00:01:03,520 --> 00:01:06,880 I mean they bought it for 20 billion dollars. What's the current revenue right now? 14 00:01:06,880 --> 00:01:09,480 So they just doubled from 200 million to 400 million 15 00:01:09,480 --> 00:01:13,300 So that's a 50x revenue multiple and for those of you that don't know what that means 16 00:01:13,520 --> 00:01:17,580 Essentially, the sticker price is the revenues time some X amount in this case 17 00:01:17,580 --> 00:01:23,560 It was 20 X which is a number that would be crazy even a year ago when venture capital was pouring all this money to startups 18 00:01:23,560 --> 00:01:27,880 Even now when we've pumped the brakes during this like current recessionary environment that we're in 19 00:01:28,160 --> 00:01:30,600 So I think to justify that 50x 20 00:01:31,160 --> 00:01:34,640 Multiple we have to look at like what are Adobe's motivations in the first place, right? 21 00:01:34,640 --> 00:01:37,920 Because like we have not seen the acquisition like this and by the way that 22 00:01:38,040 --> 00:01:40,520 Hasn't gone through yet like the FTC saw us to check it out 23 00:01:40,840 --> 00:01:46,000 That's it. That's something we'll get to later in the podcast as well. But what are Adobe's motivations behind this? 24 00:01:46,400 --> 00:01:50,280 You know Adobe is a legacy company. Like I said, you know, some could say they're failing 25 00:01:50,280 --> 00:01:55,240 You know the age of having you know, this suite of applications is really not something anyone wants anymore 26 00:01:55,240 --> 00:02:00,840 Everyone wants a one platform business and they saw figmas really their number one competitor in the space 27 00:02:00,840 --> 00:02:04,040 You know, they're really fast growing the year-over-year growth is insane 28 00:02:04,040 --> 00:02:09,880 Like we said, they still were able to manage doubling revenues from a staggering number of 200 million to 400 million 29 00:02:10,040 --> 00:02:15,200 So we want to think about do you think this is a really a defensive move or why other motivations that they'll be half of this? 30 00:02:15,200 --> 00:02:19,700 so I like think of is defensive and I think the biggest thing that jumps to mind is 31 00:02:19,700 --> 00:02:24,780 Is when have people done things like this in the past and have those actions been defensive or offensive? 32 00:02:24,780 --> 00:02:28,660 And so the first thing I think of is is Facebook buying whatsapp for example 33 00:02:28,660 --> 00:02:34,160 So we see like 2008 whatsapp starts super small private messaging company 34 00:02:35,220 --> 00:02:38,060 Obviously Facebook at that point had already like been up and coming and they're 35 00:02:38,780 --> 00:02:40,780 Continuing to grow like insanely rapidly 36 00:02:41,780 --> 00:02:43,780 But then somewhere around 37 00:02:43,780 --> 00:02:51,060 2011 Facebook starts to notice what whatsapp is doing a little bit freaked out that it's just first and foremost like a social messaging platform 38 00:02:51,060 --> 00:02:54,460 Right because Facebook was starting with messenger which they thought was gonna be the next thing 39 00:02:55,020 --> 00:02:57,840 They end up buying in 2014 Facebook buys whatsapp 40 00:02:58,420 --> 00:03:04,700 For at the time 19 billion dollars, which I did a little inflation adjustment. That's like a 23 billion dollars today. So even bigger 41 00:03:05,420 --> 00:03:08,420 Than than the actual deal we're talking about today the figma acquisition 42 00:03:08,420 --> 00:03:15,340 But at the time it was completely defensive like Facebook was saying at the time that the biggest threat to their growth 43 00:03:15,820 --> 00:03:19,980 And their future product success, especially for messenger was whatsapp 44 00:03:19,980 --> 00:03:22,780 And so, you know bought it out completely wiped it off the mark 45 00:03:22,780 --> 00:03:26,860 I mean still exists in the market today, but like completely eliminated a competitive threat 46 00:03:26,860 --> 00:03:33,700 And so I think today when we look at like what are Adobe's threats in this space their biggest threats are like these huge new 47 00:03:33,700 --> 00:03:39,460 Right innovative game changers in the space and that's why designers love figma in the first place exactly 48 00:03:39,460 --> 00:03:43,420 It's just that one clever platform, but just jumping what you're the point about Facebook 49 00:03:43,420 --> 00:03:46,860 You know, they've been known to make these defensive maneuvers think about buying Instagram 50 00:03:46,940 --> 00:03:53,040 But something I really want to think about is Facebook really didn't integrate whatsapp and she and they really kept them separate 51 00:03:53,180 --> 00:03:57,060 You know, but I think Adobe's gonna take a different out here and they're really gonna like integrate fake 52 00:03:57,060 --> 00:04:01,620 But there's not gonna still be you know figma by Adobe or maybe just thinking by itself 53 00:04:01,620 --> 00:04:06,220 I would think they're gonna make it one cohesive platform, you know, unlike what Facebook is doing 54 00:04:06,220 --> 00:04:08,660 They kind of like had this cannibalization of their same 55 00:04:09,420 --> 00:04:15,920 Customers, you know, we have the young people going on Instagram old people still going on Facebook and really like no mix of the in-between here 56 00:04:15,920 --> 00:04:18,620 So that's one of the words I have about you know 57 00:04:18,620 --> 00:04:23,380 Adobe trying to keep figma separate is they're really gonna cannibalize their existing market rather than merging it 58 00:04:23,540 --> 00:04:27,980 So, I mean when we talk about that existing market to like I think at the end of the day 59 00:04:27,980 --> 00:04:33,460 The UI UX space is completely driven by designers. It's like a weird like cultish space a little bit 60 00:04:33,820 --> 00:04:38,420 designers have these toolkits of like products they use their own product suite if you will and 61 00:04:38,900 --> 00:04:45,020 They're like super culty about the things they like and they build these like online reddit communities behind what they like and they're actually a lot 62 00:04:45,020 --> 00:04:48,940 Of people right now who are super unhappy with the deal from the designer end 63 00:04:49,580 --> 00:04:57,220 There are massive communities of designers who are kind of outraged at what's happening because they've seen before previous acquisitions of 64 00:04:57,220 --> 00:05:04,140 Smaller UI startups and UI integrations where their integrations and they're really their innovation just halts once they get once they get acquired 65 00:05:04,780 --> 00:05:10,460 Do you think like what Adobe's gonna do right now is like because you mentioned they're gonna integrate them into their product suite 66 00:05:10,820 --> 00:05:16,100 Do you think their ideas like keep building it or kind of just like fizzle it into what they have right now? 67 00:05:16,100 --> 00:05:18,420 Yes, so my only thought is you know, I was reading on tech crunch 68 00:05:18,420 --> 00:05:22,260 They had this really big idea that Adobe is essentially gonna go into figma 69 00:05:22,260 --> 00:05:24,220 If you will set up a figma becoming, you know 70 00:05:24,220 --> 00:05:30,140 Just another part of the creative cloud suite and I really think that's what's gonna happen that Adobe's gonna become figma 71 00:05:30,140 --> 00:05:33,220 We have this one cohesive platform, you know, you're gonna be on Photoshop 72 00:05:33,220 --> 00:05:38,700 I could be doing it right alongside you because that really is the future this collaborative natures of company going in the future 73 00:05:38,700 --> 00:05:42,380 You know, we can't have this, you know one product here one product here 74 00:05:42,380 --> 00:05:44,860 And then you'll combine them at the end who really need to be working on it 75 00:05:44,860 --> 00:05:51,320 You know start to finish together to really understand the customer that aspect for these faster and faster iterations that you know 76 00:05:51,320 --> 00:05:58,740 The current market landscape is calling for so your your idea right now is that right Adobe has bought let's say let's imagine like 77 00:05:59,380 --> 00:06:04,060 Six months from now FTC puts a green stamp on this deal goes through right which by the way 78 00:06:04,060 --> 00:06:07,700 I'd be like I would be I would say six months is like probably kind of 79 00:06:08,460 --> 00:06:12,580 Like liberal with that like I think it's probably closer to a year until this goes through 80 00:06:13,780 --> 00:06:18,420 Because by the way, like this is it's essentially monopolies what they're creating. Yeah, we can talk about that 81 00:06:18,420 --> 00:06:22,060 You know these legacy companies buying sharks, but we'll pump the brakes on that for now 82 00:06:22,060 --> 00:06:25,940 We'll put the brakes for a second. So my idea let's say imagine they put a green stamp on the deal. Yeah 83 00:06:27,020 --> 00:06:33,140 Next year a year from now is you log on to Adobe comm and when you go to your manager subscriptions on their creative cloud 84 00:06:33,140 --> 00:06:34,660 Which is just their suite of platforms 85 00:06:34,660 --> 00:06:40,780 Do you have access to buy Adobe Figma or when you log on to figures website just as figma by Adobe like who's retaining? 86 00:06:41,060 --> 00:06:44,700 Kind of a larger brand image and ownership here. I think it has to be Adobe 87 00:06:44,700 --> 00:06:48,380 They're not really going for a complete rebrand. I want to say like into figma 88 00:06:48,380 --> 00:06:53,300 They don't want to steal essentially figmas thunder and say oh, we are now figma figmas our competitor 89 00:06:53,340 --> 00:06:56,860 That's really kind of like submitting to them rather than they're gonna take the best 90 00:06:57,100 --> 00:06:59,340 aspects of figma and kind of use it to 91 00:07:00,180 --> 00:07:05,980 Refuel Adobe in that nature really try to take over figmas growth for themselves and like 92 00:07:06,340 --> 00:07:10,580 Reestablish themselves as this number one player, you know going into the future 93 00:07:10,580 --> 00:07:17,860 Mm-hmm. See, I mean my idea though there is that I think the most important thing to like when we talk about like who's retaining 94 00:07:18,020 --> 00:07:20,020 brand ownership, right I 95 00:07:20,340 --> 00:07:24,020 Think we have to go back to my earlier point is designers in the first place, right? 96 00:07:24,020 --> 00:07:29,020 Because designers biggest thing is that they're afraid that they're gonna go log on to figma comm 97 00:07:29,020 --> 00:07:33,340 It's gonna redirect them to this like old grandfather legacy product like Adobe XD 98 00:07:33,620 --> 00:07:36,300 That now just has little snippets of what they liked from the past 99 00:07:36,300 --> 00:07:42,180 But the end of the day people jump onto figma and I think this is something that hopefully we'll discuss in future 100 00:07:42,260 --> 00:07:46,760 Podcasts people jumped on it because it was just an insane amount of innovation happening really quickly 101 00:07:46,760 --> 00:07:53,340 I mean figma is a it's a sub 10 year old startup, right and and they've done more stuff, you know native real-time 102 00:07:53,780 --> 00:07:55,780 like collaborative editing 103 00:07:56,340 --> 00:07:59,740 You know prototyping and stitching between the UI to UX landscape 104 00:07:59,740 --> 00:08:06,140 They've done stuff that like hasn't been available before and I think people's fear is that look we invested our time our efforts 105 00:08:06,140 --> 00:08:09,580 companies have invested enterprise level subscriptions into figma and 106 00:08:10,380 --> 00:08:13,660 Now figma is just gonna revert back to what people stopped using ten years ago 107 00:08:13,660 --> 00:08:16,420 I think that's their fear here, but I could be totally wrong 108 00:08:16,420 --> 00:08:20,980 So you're kind of thinking like figma is gonna like fade away into the fold that is the greater, you know 109 00:08:20,980 --> 00:08:22,860 Adobe what it is 110 00:08:22,860 --> 00:08:23,980 That's my fear here 111 00:08:23,980 --> 00:08:28,900 And I think look if we talk if we go back to what we just talked about about being a defensive maneuver 112 00:08:28,900 --> 00:08:31,900 I think really defensive maneuver right like they're eliminating their competition 113 00:08:31,900 --> 00:08:37,020 But I think when we look at it from the consumers perspective, it might not be in their best interest 114 00:08:37,020 --> 00:08:42,260 I think there's that there's this real fear here that you know, they're gonna be completely stalled 115 00:08:42,780 --> 00:08:44,220 I 116 00:08:44,220 --> 00:08:48,300 Don't know my thoughts are really that you know, like you were saying you're gonna type in figma.com 117 00:08:48,300 --> 00:08:54,380 That's gonna be saving is typing adobe.com. It's gonna be you a one application. Maybe just even one online platform 118 00:08:54,380 --> 00:09:00,180 I know it's gonna take a lot of infrastructure to really take all those separate applications like like we talked about Photoshop 119 00:09:00,180 --> 00:09:07,220 Adobe XD and bring them all into one like application, but that is really what I think Adobe needs going in the future 120 00:09:07,220 --> 00:09:09,520 You know you're not gonna be able to pick and choose which different 121 00:09:09,740 --> 00:09:12,980 Sweets you want maybe that will based on like their different subscription models 122 00:09:12,980 --> 00:09:17,700 They have like you have access to all of these or you have access, you know only two of the products 123 00:09:17,700 --> 00:09:23,540 But I do think it's gonna be one interactive platform now going forward instead of like multiple separate platforms 124 00:09:23,540 --> 00:09:28,060 I will say though recent quote from Dylan Field who's the co-founder 125 00:09:28,060 --> 00:09:30,060 original co-founder of 126 00:09:30,380 --> 00:09:36,240 Figma and still continues on he recently said Adobe is deeply committed to keeping figma operating 127 00:09:36,460 --> 00:09:40,220 autonomously and I will continue to serve as CEO and so I think this is kind of 128 00:09:40,900 --> 00:09:43,700 Insighting that they want them to remain completely separate 129 00:09:43,700 --> 00:09:51,700 I think that like there's probably a fear on his end that that joining them a little bit more like they know who their competitor 130 00:09:51,700 --> 00:09:55,140 Yes, they know that their main competitor is someone who people view is very old 131 00:09:55,620 --> 00:09:57,620 and so I think like I 132 00:09:57,620 --> 00:09:59,620 Actually kind of disagree. I think that way 133 00:10:00,020 --> 00:10:02,580 Although what I'd like to think is Adobe's gonna swallow them up 134 00:10:02,580 --> 00:10:05,920 Like I think there's gonna be real pressure and this is probably part of the deal in the first place 135 00:10:05,920 --> 00:10:12,340 Yeah, I find it very interesting because you know Adobe did I believe they bought Figma with half a stock essentially when Adobe was in the 136 00:10:12,500 --> 00:10:17,060 Attempt of buying back shop really doing like a reverse maneuver to buy it by thing 137 00:10:17,060 --> 00:10:20,860 So I wonder if like that was part of like the stipulations how you know figma 138 00:10:20,860 --> 00:10:24,780 They want some stake in Adobe rather than just like becoming Adobe itself 139 00:10:24,780 --> 00:10:29,180 Which is interesting though because I don't know because I now you're talking about like keeping them autonomous 140 00:10:29,180 --> 00:10:32,860 I feel like they're really just gonna cannibalize their own market like Adobe customers are just gonna become 141 00:10:33,540 --> 00:10:34,940 figma customers 142 00:10:34,940 --> 00:10:41,360 Essentially, I mean from that perspective like do you think it's gonna be like they're forced to almost like they have they have no real choice 143 00:10:41,360 --> 00:10:44,220 In this matter, they just get introduced to this new figma 144 00:10:44,220 --> 00:10:49,660 I don't like Adobe figma is maybe the new service will pioneer like they just get introduced and they're forced to do that 145 00:10:49,660 --> 00:10:51,980 Or do you think they're actually really gonna lose that market? 146 00:10:51,980 --> 00:10:56,260 I think they will lose that market because this ties back to you know, like that Facebook Instagram thing 147 00:10:56,620 --> 00:11:01,500 Facebook really did lose that market, you know, we can see Facebook is going through their own terminal right now 148 00:11:01,500 --> 00:11:04,980 You know, they've tried other rebrands with meta metaverse not panning out 149 00:11:04,980 --> 00:11:06,060 Maybe they will in the future 150 00:11:06,060 --> 00:11:12,220 But my fear is that this is really just like a Facebook Instagram parallel where this giant legacy company Adobe 151 00:11:12,220 --> 00:11:14,220 You know, they bought this very hot up-and-coming 152 00:11:14,660 --> 00:11:17,860 startup now like high growth company and you know 153 00:11:17,860 --> 00:11:23,700 They're just competing for the same markets in that aspect but so what I look at is a little bit different, too 154 00:11:23,700 --> 00:11:30,580 So when we think about them losing this massive market just because of you know, the sticker price in their previous market share 155 00:11:30,820 --> 00:11:33,340 Let's go back to that. Let's look at when Facebook bought Instagram, right? 156 00:11:33,340 --> 00:11:38,400 Yeah, one of the reasons they bought Instagram is because the demographic for Instagram was way younger than Facebook 157 00:11:38,400 --> 00:11:41,400 It's true and they didn't want to lose out on that market now figma 158 00:11:41,900 --> 00:11:47,740 At the time of the purchase had 77% of the market and so you could say they were already a monopolist 159 00:11:47,740 --> 00:11:53,580 On this market. Yeah, Adobe who was kind of like poor shriveling out like disheveled who's by the way 160 00:11:53,580 --> 00:11:59,300 They're their stock sticker price was in the down down 46% I think over the year something like that 161 00:11:59,900 --> 00:12:06,460 This was completely like look we have way more money than you but you are on a way better trajectory than us 162 00:12:07,020 --> 00:12:12,440 And so I think it's like and in this case and this is my larger point when Facebook bought Instagram 163 00:12:12,440 --> 00:12:14,180 Even though they had this dominance over the market 164 00:12:14,180 --> 00:12:20,380 I don't think they lost much of their consumer base consumers were kind of fine that like that remaining with existing 165 00:12:20,580 --> 00:12:24,580 Consumer base will stay the same for Adobe, you know, the Adobe's not gonna lose to figma 166 00:12:24,580 --> 00:12:29,500 But I'm saying what about the new people, you know, like we just made our logo off of figma for free 167 00:12:29,500 --> 00:12:36,780 Like you're not gonna go use Adobe. Yeah, you're gonna stay with figma. How can Adobe compete to get new customers then? 168 00:12:37,580 --> 00:12:40,660 How can they compete to get well, okay, let's let's take it like one by one 169 00:12:40,660 --> 00:12:42,880 So there's the question how can they compete to get new customers? 170 00:12:42,880 --> 00:12:46,580 But then how can they retain their own customers and kind of like avoid churn, right? 171 00:12:46,780 --> 00:12:52,540 And so I think when it's retaining customers, it's just they have to remain they kind of like garner that loyalty 172 00:12:52,940 --> 00:12:58,180 Just by continuing the path of innovation like being very transparent a quote like that from Dillon Field about 173 00:12:58,540 --> 00:13:01,060 Her remaining on a CEO. I think it's like really important 174 00:13:01,060 --> 00:13:05,980 Yeah, especially for this huge very like invested consumer base in the design industry where people are like 175 00:13:06,500 --> 00:13:11,700 Constantly obsessed with what they're they're working on. But when we look at like gathering new consumers, I don't know 176 00:13:11,700 --> 00:13:16,460 I think it's like I wonder if they're gonna continue to be an industry cannibal and just go after 177 00:13:17,300 --> 00:13:24,140 All of these startups that we see today are already integrating with figma. Yeah, I wonder how that's gonna change those integrations in the first place 178 00:13:24,140 --> 00:13:25,420 I think 179 00:13:25,420 --> 00:13:29,060 Sahil and I were chatting about this when the deal initially happened. There are 180 00:13:29,620 --> 00:13:34,180 Hundreds of startups now whose entire existence is dependent upon figma, right? 181 00:13:34,180 --> 00:13:39,580 Like they exist so that UI designers can just pull them into the toolkit and integrate them 182 00:13:39,580 --> 00:13:42,780 I mean, do you think they're gonna lose all those as well or like I 183 00:13:43,780 --> 00:13:45,860 Don't know. It's just a question. Let's see in the future 184 00:13:45,860 --> 00:13:48,340 I think they will lose in the at the end of the game 185 00:13:48,340 --> 00:13:50,220 They're gonna pour all their money into figma 186 00:13:50,220 --> 00:13:56,020 But I sort of know going back to our first point of you know a 50x revenue multiple if we're not seeing like 187 00:13:56,220 --> 00:14:02,720 Adobe's core business itself getting any increase in revenue rather than just you know taking on figmas rent revenue 188 00:14:02,720 --> 00:14:05,400 I think maybe an interesting 189 00:14:05,400 --> 00:14:10,740 Note on that topic is because I feel like at this point right like we could we could pick this apart all day 190 00:14:10,740 --> 00:14:15,860 But I think something that's really interesting here is when you're in a position like Adobe was where you are 191 00:14:16,080 --> 00:14:18,080 Although you have a ton of capital 192 00:14:19,120 --> 00:14:25,200 Your shareholder support is tanking your stocks are down people are not using your services figma owns 193 00:14:25,720 --> 00:14:28,540 77% of the design market meanwhile Adobe's been pumping 194 00:14:29,120 --> 00:14:32,840 Millions into Adobe XD and Photoshop and Lightroom over the last 15 years 195 00:14:32,840 --> 00:14:39,000 In general, what are your options as as a company because they chose to make a maneuver, right? 196 00:14:39,000 --> 00:14:43,680 We're gonna buy out this company exactly. There's also the you know, you could you could pivot to a different product 197 00:14:43,680 --> 00:14:49,480 You could go target another consumer segment like what are your options? Like how do you weigh your options in that position? 198 00:14:49,840 --> 00:14:52,880 Exactly. I think this makes like a good segue to our next point about you know 199 00:14:52,880 --> 00:14:58,080 legacy companies going out and buying startups like should this deal even go through it really sets a 200 00:14:58,080 --> 00:15:02,800 precedent that you know these legacy companies they have all this money billions of dollars can they just 201 00:15:03,080 --> 00:15:05,480 Swallow up starts and no one can really compete anymore 202 00:15:05,480 --> 00:15:11,080 Like do we think legacy companies should be allowed to buy startups, you know up-and-coming high growth companies 203 00:15:11,560 --> 00:15:18,200 Like Adobe bought figma, but does this really kill innovation? Do we think or does it bolstered in fact by having these capital injections? 204 00:15:18,200 --> 00:15:21,440 Well, look I think at the end of the day companies are allowed to do whatever they want, right? 205 00:15:21,440 --> 00:15:24,800 Like that's part of the beauty of operating in a free market. I think to 206 00:15:24,800 --> 00:15:30,200 By the way, like with the regulation of the FTC to make sure that you're not completely running out of the competition 207 00:15:30,200 --> 00:15:34,600 I don't know to be completely honest. Like I don't know what the FTC specific regulations are 208 00:15:34,600 --> 00:15:39,800 You know if they let Facebook buy a whatsapp which has been heavily contested and many people think it was a horrible decision 209 00:15:39,800 --> 00:15:45,400 Especially given in the last two years all the controversy we've seen over social media gathering people's information 210 00:15:45,400 --> 00:15:50,400 I don't know. I assume like I assume the deal will go through otherwise they'll be like insane scrutiny 211 00:15:50,400 --> 00:15:55,400 But maybe there should be like more of a specific metric right like if your market share is over 212 00:15:56,000 --> 00:16:01,160 X amount like you should not be able to buy a company that is x amount close to what you do 213 00:16:02,160 --> 00:16:05,240 I don't know. I think at the end of the day like they're completely allowed to do it 214 00:16:05,240 --> 00:16:12,120 Someone made a smart decision on Adobe's behalf whether or not you think that they're like completely erasing the competition or they're harming 215 00:16:13,120 --> 00:16:16,960 Figma fans out there and like stalling the design industry. They made a smart business decision 216 00:16:16,960 --> 00:16:20,760 So I don't I mean do you feel that like there should be tighter regulations on it? 217 00:16:20,760 --> 00:16:25,720 No, I think the deal should be allowed to go through my only worry is you know, if I'm a startup 218 00:16:25,720 --> 00:16:26,320 I have a great idea 219 00:16:26,320 --> 00:16:30,320 How am I gonna compete against Figma now like you were already unable to compete against them? 220 00:16:30,320 --> 00:16:36,440 Like I said seventy percent seventy seven percent of the market now. They're backed by this billion dollar public corporation 221 00:16:36,440 --> 00:16:37,360 They could just do it 222 00:16:37,360 --> 00:16:42,480 You know Facebook does someone comes along or like take that does someone comes along with the great idea like be real did 223 00:16:42,480 --> 00:16:44,480 You know, you just make it internally now 224 00:16:44,480 --> 00:16:47,080 And you just put it on your own platform. It's like an extra feature 225 00:16:47,080 --> 00:16:51,320 So like I just wear that this could like pause innovation like you're saying in the design space 226 00:16:51,320 --> 00:16:55,080 Like obviously Figma will keep you know progressing and innovating themselves 227 00:16:55,080 --> 00:16:58,680 But I think the greatest innovation comes from the pressure of your competition 228 00:16:58,680 --> 00:17:02,280 And you can see what everyone else is doing and finding new ways to beat out competition 229 00:17:02,280 --> 00:17:05,920 But if you can just build something internally, how can you really compete against that? 230 00:17:05,920 --> 00:17:12,360 Yeah, it's there's a gradient of competition right like like minor or like mediary competition that helps thrive innovation like yours 231 00:17:12,360 --> 00:17:18,080 Or how spur innovation and you're talking about but when the competition owns a hundred percent of the market like it's not a company 232 00:17:18,080 --> 00:17:22,400 It's a brick wall. That's not competition. Um, my question for you though is 233 00:17:23,200 --> 00:17:25,200 What do you think canvas response is gonna be now? 234 00:17:26,000 --> 00:17:30,200 I don't know camera, you know, I don't you guys have seen they recently released a new work speed 235 00:17:30,200 --> 00:17:36,080 They're kind of competing with Google's works workshop in this suite in this case, but I don't know what they're gonna do 236 00:17:36,080 --> 00:17:40,040 I think they might you know pivot into their own niche a little bit be more for like the beginners 237 00:17:40,040 --> 00:17:44,240 They might say, you know with their templated versions rather than figmas for for the advanced 238 00:17:44,240 --> 00:17:47,440 So kind of catering towards people, you know that are beginning 239 00:17:47,440 --> 00:17:51,960 But I wonder how they can hold on to those people because once you can become more advanced UI UX design 240 00:17:51,960 --> 00:17:54,760 Like you eventually go to figment, but just because it's a more powerful program 241 00:17:54,760 --> 00:17:58,720 So what are your thoughts like how can canva really keep on to their customers? 242 00:17:58,720 --> 00:18:05,240 Look, I think canvas like quaking right now. Yeah, I think they're absolutely terrified if I'm if I'm the canvas co-founders 243 00:18:05,240 --> 00:18:10,280 I mean, you're probably in talks with the FTC trying to like lobby this not to go through 244 00:18:10,280 --> 00:18:12,280 Yeah, you're probably talks with execs at figma 245 00:18:12,280 --> 00:18:17,760 I think I think their biggest thing right now is canva attracts much more of a beginner market. I think 246 00:18:17,760 --> 00:18:21,960 You mentioned it before and I think you said figma like our logo straight from camera, right? 247 00:18:21,960 --> 00:18:28,560 And like what the fuck do we know and I think for figma like you have to be more of like an intermediate or experienced designer 248 00:18:28,560 --> 00:18:32,640 And so maybe that's a market that they're gonna really try and dive after like 249 00:18:32,640 --> 00:18:38,360 I have this background fear that now this adobe figma carnivore is going to double up canva 250 00:18:38,360 --> 00:18:43,160 Oh god, but then I don't then like how do you like where's your attention coming from? 251 00:18:43,160 --> 00:18:49,040 Like what is stopping someone, you know for building the skills on canva and not just like and then just leaving canva 252 00:18:49,040 --> 00:18:53,920 How do you incentivize people to stay? I don't know. I don't know the answer 253 00:18:53,920 --> 00:18:58,600 Yeah, I mean, I think that's something that we're gonna have to leave to discuss further in the next episode 254 00:18:58,600 --> 00:19:03,040 But I'm Crockett Callaway. I'm Sahil Seth and this is uninvested