WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:03.640 Hello, welcome to another episode of unpacking 00:00:03.640 --> 00:00:07.459 neuro queerness first episode and I want to say 00:00:07.629 --> 00:00:11.509 six months, roughly. My co -host, X, and I just 00:00:11.509 --> 00:00:14.230 made a film, little documentary recently, I'll 00:00:14.230 --> 00:00:16.469 link it at the bottom, it's called Neurodivergent 00:00:16.469 --> 00:00:19.269 Stories. We had a really great time making this 00:00:19.269 --> 00:00:22.670 documentary, really wanted to talk about everything 00:00:22.670 --> 00:00:24.730 that I've talked about and that we've talked 00:00:24.730 --> 00:00:28.329 about on this podcast before, but really summarizing 00:00:28.329 --> 00:00:31.190 it into like a film and we'll get into how it 00:00:31.190 --> 00:00:33.909 came about and all that. We'll also probably 00:00:33.909 --> 00:00:35.729 be going on tantrums because that is what this 00:00:35.729 --> 00:00:37.820 podcast is about. is what you have come to know 00:00:37.820 --> 00:00:39.880 us for and we have to give it to you. You know, 00:00:39.920 --> 00:00:42.079 we can't really help it. I would like to start 00:00:42.079 --> 00:00:44.020 off with questions since you know it's your documentary. 00:00:44.399 --> 00:00:46.979 On this podcast specifically... You often talk 00:00:46.979 --> 00:00:48.979 about how outside perceptions of neurodivergent 00:00:48.979 --> 00:00:51.159 individuals contribute to economists' conceptions 00:00:51.159 --> 00:00:53.759 and how that influences discussions about neurodiversity. 00:00:53.939 --> 00:00:55.820 You do it extensively on this podcast and I'm 00:00:55.820 --> 00:00:57.359 very grateful to be a part of that discussion. 00:00:57.500 --> 00:00:59.700 Were there particular topics you decided to focus 00:00:59.700 --> 00:01:01.799 on to avoid things you would see previously as 00:01:01.799 --> 00:01:04.120 external narratives of neurodivergent experiences? 00:01:04.280 --> 00:01:06.439 That's a good question. Thank you. Yeah, I was 00:01:06.439 --> 00:01:08.299 thinking about that, you know, when I had the 00:01:08.299 --> 00:01:10.079 idea of doing the project and everything and 00:01:10.079 --> 00:01:13.159 I wanted to make sure that I phrased the prompt. 00:01:13.260 --> 00:01:15.540 I wanted to make sure that I put it in a way 00:01:15.469 --> 00:01:19.250 Where people were comfortable expressing just 00:01:19.250 --> 00:01:21.469 themselves from the gut from what they're feeling 00:01:21.469 --> 00:01:25.090 Instead of trying to script or trying to to fit 00:01:25.090 --> 00:01:27.689 something I didn't want it to be too vague because 00:01:27.689 --> 00:01:30.590 I know for a lot of us It's helpful to have an 00:01:30.590 --> 00:01:33.609 idea of what exactly you're gonna be talking 00:01:33.609 --> 00:01:36.090 about when it comes to something like the neurodivergent 00:01:36.090 --> 00:01:38.950 experience I knew that I wanted it to be like 00:01:38.950 --> 00:01:40.989 I didn't want people to be too lost either and 00:01:40.989 --> 00:01:44.329 then so it was actually X gave me a great idea 00:01:44.329 --> 00:01:47.719 of Having these little questions sort of like 00:01:47.719 --> 00:01:50.780 optional questions for people to respond to just 00:01:50.780 --> 00:01:53.420 kind of give them some guidance One way that 00:01:53.420 --> 00:01:56.159 you could talk about your experience, but I remember 00:01:56.159 --> 00:01:58.299 telling them in the email that the questions 00:01:58.299 --> 00:02:00.599 were strictly optional They also didn't want 00:02:00.599 --> 00:02:03.549 them to to feel like they had to follow something 00:02:03.549 --> 00:02:05.989 that would be beside the point of the entire 00:02:05.989 --> 00:02:08.750 yeah exactly so when i went to prepare the questions 00:02:08.750 --> 00:02:12.250 i remember focusing a lot on things that aren't 00:02:12.250 --> 00:02:17.150 usually shown in mainstream tv and media things 00:02:17.150 --> 00:02:20.849 like for example sensory stings such especially 00:02:20.849 --> 00:02:23.689 related to food things like masking but just 00:02:23.689 --> 00:02:26.069 like the internal experience of masking i think 00:02:26.069 --> 00:02:28.610 that is definitely something that if i had to 00:02:28.610 --> 00:02:31.840 name the thing that's definitely not talked about 00:02:31.840 --> 00:02:34.539 barely at all in the mainstream world is definitely 00:02:34.539 --> 00:02:37.840 masking because masking is such an internal experience 00:02:37.840 --> 00:02:41.699 to that point masking not from the again external 00:02:41.699 --> 00:02:44.719 ways that people see it but the strong small 00:02:44.719 --> 00:02:47.379 details from within that are completely different 00:02:47.379 --> 00:02:50.389 yeah what people see, correct? Yeah, exactly. 00:02:50.729 --> 00:02:53.250 Everything that goes on in your mind, particularly, 00:02:53.449 --> 00:02:56.229 I guess, in the example of autism, is you get 00:02:56.229 --> 00:02:59.569 so focused on... For me, I guess, at least, I 00:02:59.569 --> 00:03:02.210 would get really worried about how is the other 00:03:02.210 --> 00:03:04.310 person interpreting what I'm saying, because 00:03:04.310 --> 00:03:07.030 I know that for me, I'm putting the emphasis 00:03:07.030 --> 00:03:09.530 in the word. But I know that a lot of people, 00:03:09.830 --> 00:03:12.370 particularly neurotypicals, the way they communicate 00:03:12.370 --> 00:03:15.449 is more through facial language or expressions 00:03:15.449 --> 00:03:19.139 or like tone or whatnot. noticed this early on 00:03:19.139 --> 00:03:22.000 I became really self -conscious about it from 00:03:22.000 --> 00:03:24.400 a young age and then really nervous about being 00:03:24.400 --> 00:03:27.960 misinterpreted I guess that was one form of masking 00:03:27.960 --> 00:03:31.659 is feeling like I had to change my or modify 00:03:31.659 --> 00:03:34.979 my intonation or like my facial expressions at 00:03:34.979 --> 00:03:37.639 the same time that I'm saying something which 00:03:37.639 --> 00:03:40.400 I realized would be so stressful because it's 00:03:40.400 --> 00:03:42.960 like you're already working on the main task 00:03:42.960 --> 00:03:45.659 of trying to explain whatever you're explaining 00:03:45.659 --> 00:03:47.840 or talk about what you're talking about and then 00:03:47.840 --> 00:03:50.319 I caught myself also having to do all this math 00:03:50.319 --> 00:03:52.340 in my head for most people they don't realize 00:03:52.340 --> 00:03:54.500 because for them it comes naturally. As someone 00:03:54.500 --> 00:03:57.080 who is mostly natural those are things that I 00:03:57.080 --> 00:03:59.759 would experience when I'm having a tough conversation 00:03:59.759 --> 00:04:02.180 with someone I care about so I think for everyone 00:04:02.180 --> 00:04:04.259 else out there that's the experience of sitting 00:04:04.259 --> 00:04:06.060 down with someone you're having difficulty connecting 00:04:06.060 --> 00:04:08.319 to and want to and have feel you have to very 00:04:08.319 --> 00:04:11.520 carefully do so with that is a slice or a snippet 00:04:11.520 --> 00:04:13.240 of what that might be like for you on a daily 00:04:13.240 --> 00:04:16.350 basis. Yeah exactly so I was feeling like I to 00:04:16.350 --> 00:04:19.069 do that I started noticing I guess probably by 00:04:19.069 --> 00:04:22.470 the time I was five or six maybe before like 00:04:22.470 --> 00:04:24.629 whenever I was going to school and whatnot I 00:04:24.629 --> 00:04:27.709 think I did start to notice oh and I guess it's 00:04:27.709 --> 00:04:30.230 trial and error I started noticing that certain 00:04:30.230 --> 00:04:33.110 expressions if I said it a certain way if I said 00:04:33.110 --> 00:04:35.509 it with this tone if I said it with that tone 00:04:35.509 --> 00:04:38.470 if I made my face like this or that if you put 00:04:38.470 --> 00:04:41.009 the emphasis on the right syllable Right? Yeah, 00:04:41.089 --> 00:04:43.769 exactly. The reaction would be vastly different. 00:04:43.790 --> 00:04:45.829 And I could be saying the same exact thing, but 00:04:45.829 --> 00:04:48.829 it's just how I said it. All these little ingredients, 00:04:48.910 --> 00:04:51.310 I had to kind of mix those in there. And so there's 00:04:51.310 --> 00:04:54.470 the constant mental math of doing that. And then 00:04:54.470 --> 00:04:56.670 watching the other person's reaction. So I guess 00:04:56.670 --> 00:04:59.009 there's three things. I'm speaking, and then 00:04:59.009 --> 00:05:01.750 I'm doing all this math in my head. Okay, how 00:05:01.750 --> 00:05:03.670 do I convey this in the way they're going to 00:05:03.670 --> 00:05:05.730 understand? I'm not going to misunderstand. And 00:05:05.730 --> 00:05:08.389 then the third thing is watching them. And as 00:05:08.389 --> 00:05:11.509 I'm watching them, I'll adjust but then I can 00:05:11.509 --> 00:05:13.389 also get really confused because it's like oh 00:05:13.389 --> 00:05:15.629 maybe it's not working and I don't know and then 00:05:15.629 --> 00:05:17.730 I start getting really in my head and then it's 00:05:17.730 --> 00:05:21.029 a whole spiral because then I'll lose track of 00:05:21.029 --> 00:05:23.269 what I'm saying or what they're saying because 00:05:23.269 --> 00:05:25.310 I noticed this happening the other way around 00:05:25.310 --> 00:05:28.189 as well I notice it when they're saying something 00:05:28.189 --> 00:05:31.449 and they might misunderstand or misinterpret 00:05:31.449 --> 00:05:34.569 my reaction or how it's making me feel because 00:05:34.569 --> 00:05:37.050 like maybe I'm just processing and I'm processing 00:05:37.050 --> 00:05:39.959 this information and so I'm focused on just gathering 00:05:39.959 --> 00:05:42.420 it and so maybe my face looks different but then 00:05:42.420 --> 00:05:44.319 they might assume that I don't understand what 00:05:44.319 --> 00:05:46.259 they're saying or they might assume that I don't 00:05:46.259 --> 00:05:48.839 agree with them and then I think the other big 00:05:48.839 --> 00:05:52.060 thing with masking was having to force eye contact. 00:05:52.220 --> 00:05:54.199 You do talk about forcing eye contact quite a 00:05:54.199 --> 00:05:56.300 bit and people mention it throughout the documentary 00:05:56.300 --> 00:05:58.980 as well in the context of you trying so hard 00:05:58.980 --> 00:06:01.339 in what seems to you especially when you guys 00:06:01.339 --> 00:06:03.180 are younger the people who are on the spectrum 00:06:03.180 --> 00:06:05.500 that are part of this documentary is managing 00:06:05.500 --> 00:06:07.699 expectations to feel safe and it sounds like 00:06:07.699 --> 00:06:09.939 you try to keep that in mind when you wrote the 00:06:09.939 --> 00:06:13.100 questions yeah exactly i think also just explaining 00:06:13.100 --> 00:06:15.819 the sensory sensitivities is another thing that 00:06:15.819 --> 00:06:18.600 i remember came up a lot i think i had at least 00:06:18.600 --> 00:06:21.180 one question related to that which i'm glad it 00:06:21.180 --> 00:06:23.319 came up anyways but i don't think i i had even 00:06:23.319 --> 00:06:25.420 thought of food people talked about clothing 00:06:25.420 --> 00:06:27.819 textures as well yeah people talked about clothing 00:06:27.819 --> 00:06:30.360 i think even in general that's something that 00:06:30.360 --> 00:06:33.019 most people aren't familiar with the sensory 00:06:33.019 --> 00:06:35.399 aspect of but i think that even when it is discussed 00:06:35.399 --> 00:06:38.279 mentioned more with light and sound because it's 00:06:38.279 --> 00:06:40.660 beyond that like food sensitivities is something 00:06:40.660 --> 00:06:43.220 that I've had for a long time and it's one of 00:06:43.220 --> 00:06:44.939 the things that it makes me sad that's where 00:06:44.939 --> 00:06:46.860 there needs to be more understanding for sure 00:06:46.860 --> 00:06:49.360 but a lot of people that have sensory sensitivities 00:06:49.360 --> 00:06:51.939 with food they just get disregarded as picky 00:06:51.939 --> 00:06:54.180 eaters or just people think it's just because 00:06:54.180 --> 00:06:56.199 we don't want to eat something just because we 00:06:56.199 --> 00:06:58.459 don't like it or just because it's healthy if 00:06:58.459 --> 00:07:01.660 I try to eat something that my body does not 00:07:01.660 --> 00:07:04.220 like the texture of trying to eat something that 00:07:04.220 --> 00:07:07.629 my body doesn't want or can't the texture I'll 00:07:07.629 --> 00:07:09.709 literally start to gag and it's even happened 00:07:09.709 --> 00:07:11.949 one or two times where I've had that reaction 00:07:11.949 --> 00:07:14.470 because I feel like someone was forcing me to 00:07:14.470 --> 00:07:16.790 eat something when my body was saying no and 00:07:16.790 --> 00:07:18.569 then they think I'm being dramatic because I 00:07:18.569 --> 00:07:20.569 remember this happening when I was a kid and 00:07:20.569 --> 00:07:22.529 everything and I couldn't it's a bummer because 00:07:22.529 --> 00:07:24.670 I couldn't even explain what it was back then 00:07:24.670 --> 00:07:27.029 but I remember always feeling like there's something 00:07:27.029 --> 00:07:29.290 that that people just don't understand I knew 00:07:29.290 --> 00:07:31.829 I wasn't being dramatic I knew it was something 00:07:31.829 --> 00:07:34.470 it's a proportional response to the texture ache 00:07:34.699 --> 00:07:36.540 that you were feeling especially as a kid you 00:07:36.540 --> 00:07:38.459 know i'm not saying what the texture was but 00:07:38.459 --> 00:07:40.339 for everyone else if they're imagining something 00:07:40.339 --> 00:07:43.240 unexpectedly slimy or something that didn't taste 00:07:43.240 --> 00:07:44.540 the way you thought it was going to be in your 00:07:44.540 --> 00:07:46.720 kid you know you have this lizard brain reaction 00:07:46.720 --> 00:07:49.579 of yeah it's like a gag or something it's like 00:07:49.579 --> 00:07:52.319 my body is rejecting it nope not for me yeah 00:07:52.319 --> 00:07:54.319 which i don't even like getting to that point 00:07:54.319 --> 00:07:56.740 before i even put it in my mouth sometimes if 00:07:56.740 --> 00:07:58.899 i can sense like okay this texture is not going 00:07:58.899 --> 00:08:01.879 to go go well then I won't even eat it because 00:08:01.879 --> 00:08:04.540 I know, like, okay, I'm not even gonna put myself 00:08:04.540 --> 00:08:07.040 in that situation. I'm glad that I put that in 00:08:07.040 --> 00:08:09.439 there. Especially with the food thing, it's an 00:08:09.439 --> 00:08:12.699 example of the, again, masking that you are trying 00:08:12.699 --> 00:08:15.180 to get people to explain in addition to other 00:08:15.180 --> 00:08:17.790 things that other people don't see. it's hard 00:08:17.790 --> 00:08:20.250 for them to understand from the intern like the 00:08:20.250 --> 00:08:22.949 sensory thing that comes with it i think it's 00:08:22.949 --> 00:08:26.129 harder for them to to grasp yeah you managed 00:08:26.129 --> 00:08:28.329 to capture the difference between other people 00:08:28.329 --> 00:08:30.189 looking at what they think is someone being picky 00:08:30.189 --> 00:08:33.210 when actually it's just chaos inside that person's 00:08:33.210 --> 00:08:36.000 body or head Yeah, exactly. Because I know it 00:08:36.000 --> 00:08:38.779 comes up in the film as well. I frame autism 00:08:38.779 --> 00:08:42.039 as sometimes feeling like a different language 00:08:42.039 --> 00:08:44.799 or the communication differences associated with 00:08:44.799 --> 00:08:47.279 being autistic. It's like you speak autistic 00:08:47.279 --> 00:08:50.100 and you can learn neurotypical as a second language, 00:08:50.500 --> 00:08:52.460 but it's never going to be your first language. 00:08:52.659 --> 00:08:54.980 Masting is learning neurotypical, isn't it? Essentially, 00:08:55.240 --> 00:08:57.580 yes. It's like you speak a different language, 00:08:57.600 --> 00:08:59.919 but most people don't realize that it's a different 00:08:59.919 --> 00:09:02.480 language. They think that you're just struggling 00:09:02.480 --> 00:09:05.240 to learn the language well I have an example 00:09:05.240 --> 00:09:07.740 actually I have one for myself I speak English 00:09:07.740 --> 00:09:10.639 and Russian interchangeably I think in both I 00:09:10.639 --> 00:09:13.379 don't have any language issues when I speak English 00:09:13.379 --> 00:09:16.340 there are certain things in phrases that I say 00:09:16.340 --> 00:09:19.679 in English yeah not because of neurodivergence 00:09:19.679 --> 00:09:22.980 but because of a cultural background that people 00:09:22.980 --> 00:09:25.720 will look at me confused mm -hmm they will be 00:09:25.720 --> 00:09:27.580 confused because it sounds like perfect English 00:09:27.580 --> 00:09:30.200 to them because it is but it comes from a place 00:09:30.200 --> 00:09:33.110 that they don't understand If someone comes and 00:09:33.110 --> 00:09:34.870 they have an obvious accent, which is completely 00:09:34.870 --> 00:09:37.070 fine. Very impressive when someone else can learn 00:09:37.070 --> 00:09:40.539 a different language, much less their own. I 00:09:40.539 --> 00:09:42.379 think other people will hear that and go, oh, 00:09:42.440 --> 00:09:44.059 there's a reason this person's not doing this. 00:09:44.200 --> 00:09:46.059 But say in your case, when you're artistic, people 00:09:46.059 --> 00:09:48.580 hear you speaking, say, perfect English. Do you 00:09:48.580 --> 00:09:50.639 think there's a jumping to conclusions that happens? 00:09:50.879 --> 00:09:55.179 Yeah, I think when you say something directly, 00:09:55.659 --> 00:09:58.059 because of your tone, they might interpret it 00:09:58.059 --> 00:10:00.299 a different way. I can send you the link, or 00:10:00.299 --> 00:10:03.769 I'd be happy to send you the link. I've noticed 00:10:03.769 --> 00:10:07.250 that sometimes people can misinterpret that as, 00:10:07.450 --> 00:10:10.370 if you're too busy to search or whatever, I'll 00:10:10.370 --> 00:10:13.009 send you the link. I don't know, I legitimately 00:10:13.009 --> 00:10:15.629 mean no, if this person is going to be able to 00:10:15.629 --> 00:10:17.690 find it otherwise, because sometimes I can't 00:10:17.690 --> 00:10:19.490 find it otherwise. Your intention is to share 00:10:19.490 --> 00:10:22.090 information. Yeah. I think that's a good point, 00:10:22.289 --> 00:10:23.730 regardless of whether you're on the spectrum 00:10:23.730 --> 00:10:25.730 or not, and a lot of neurodivergent people, I 00:10:25.730 --> 00:10:27.070 certainly have this where I share something, 00:10:27.129 --> 00:10:29.269 or I try to give people more information, because 00:10:29.269 --> 00:10:30.769 I don't think they're going to take it personally. 00:10:30.970 --> 00:10:33.110 because why would they maybe they're feeling 00:10:33.110 --> 00:10:35.370 a bit down maybe they've had a conversation with 00:10:35.370 --> 00:10:37.009 someone else where they felt put down all of 00:10:37.009 --> 00:10:39.549 a sudden yeah go well so you think you know more 00:10:39.549 --> 00:10:41.750 than and often i'll just say actually i can't 00:10:41.750 --> 00:10:43.409 remember exactly how they explained it and they 00:10:43.409 --> 00:10:45.470 do it better than me so here is the information 00:10:45.470 --> 00:10:47.250 that i think you might find interesting but as 00:10:47.250 --> 00:10:48.970 you're saying they might take it as they might 00:10:48.970 --> 00:10:53.000 take it as i think that they can't do it or that 00:10:53.000 --> 00:10:55.320 I can do it begrudgingly. I think it happened 00:10:55.320 --> 00:10:57.360 when I was telling someone about my film. Oh 00:10:57.360 --> 00:10:59.279 I can send it or I'd be happy to send it and 00:10:59.279 --> 00:11:01.700 then they were like oh I can look it up and find 00:11:01.700 --> 00:11:03.519 it or I don't remember if that's what they said 00:11:03.519 --> 00:11:06.179 afterwards but I don't know it came up again. 00:11:06.440 --> 00:11:08.159 where I was like oh I can send it and they're 00:11:08.159 --> 00:11:10.820 like oh if you don't mind and I'm like no I don't 00:11:10.820 --> 00:11:12.559 we're trying to make people's lives easier yeah 00:11:12.559 --> 00:11:16.679 I also really wanted to shift away from stereotypical 00:11:16.679 --> 00:11:20.480 narratives such as autistic people being seen 00:11:20.480 --> 00:11:24.820 as inherently infantile or even like as inherently 00:11:24.820 --> 00:11:27.299 innocent which is not true either you can still 00:11:27.299 --> 00:11:30.600 be an asshole and inherently oblivious or gullible 00:11:30.600 --> 00:11:32.940 like I've seen that kind of trope played a lot 00:11:32.940 --> 00:11:35.320 I think that's a disconnect people think that 00:11:35.320 --> 00:11:39.539 oh we're communicating in this set way so they 00:11:39.539 --> 00:11:42.360 must be oblivious or the poor thing or he's trying 00:11:42.360 --> 00:11:45.700 to learn let's teach him the right way of communicating 00:11:45.700 --> 00:11:48.240 and I understand and a lot of times people are 00:11:48.240 --> 00:11:50.200 doing it with good intentions but it's because 00:11:50.200 --> 00:11:53.259 they don't understand that it's not that we don't 00:11:53.259 --> 00:11:55.899 know how to communicate it's that we communicate 00:11:55.899 --> 00:12:08.799 differently. for him specifically autistic caricatures 00:12:08.799 --> 00:12:14.120 that have become a default in thinking high skills 00:12:14.120 --> 00:12:16.620 because of something else but low social skills 00:12:16.620 --> 00:12:19.600 or on the other side of this narrative spectrum 00:12:19.600 --> 00:12:22.919 to not be able to speak or being a problem and 00:12:22.919 --> 00:12:26.080 there is very little in between and there's nuances 00:12:26.080 --> 00:12:30.730 to each situation it's complicated But I know 00:12:30.730 --> 00:12:33.690 that a lot of people, particularly neurotypicals, 00:12:33.730 --> 00:12:36.669 the way they communicate, instead of saying no, 00:12:36.690 --> 00:12:38.549 or I can't make it, or I don't know if I'm gonna 00:12:38.549 --> 00:12:41.110 make it, they'll just not respond. For me, that 00:12:41.110 --> 00:12:44.090 makes me more stressed. Did I say something that 00:12:44.090 --> 00:12:46.470 made them feel weird? Not the social ghosting. 00:12:46.610 --> 00:12:49.230 Yeah, the social ghosting is frustrating. But 00:12:49.230 --> 00:12:51.190 I get it, because I guess people aren't used 00:12:51.190 --> 00:12:53.769 to the directness. It feels really discouraging 00:12:53.769 --> 00:12:57.509 when you try to communicate in the way that's 00:12:57.509 --> 00:12:59.870 not only most authentic to you, but It's actually 00:12:59.870 --> 00:13:02.129 a more direct way. And because people aren't 00:13:02.129 --> 00:13:04.169 used to that, because in most people's mind, 00:13:04.190 --> 00:13:05.970 they wouldn't do that unless they were upset. 00:13:06.169 --> 00:13:08.289 You are trying to be as clear as possible to 00:13:08.289 --> 00:13:11.269 not have this problem. And it's creating a problem. 00:13:11.490 --> 00:13:13.070 It's part of those communication differences 00:13:13.070 --> 00:13:15.129 that you talk about. It's difficult because you're 00:13:15.129 --> 00:13:17.289 being direct to avoid miscommunication. And these 00:13:17.289 --> 00:13:19.610 are things that you think about very deeply, 00:13:19.870 --> 00:13:21.889 obviously. and people in the documentary think 00:13:21.889 --> 00:13:24.389 about, and there are still problems, and I'm 00:13:24.389 --> 00:13:27.409 not on the spectrum, so I don't have my own experience 00:13:27.409 --> 00:13:29.309 with it. I have it with my brother, who is in 00:13:29.309 --> 00:13:31.409 the documentary and has a lovely voice in the 00:13:31.409 --> 00:13:34.850 documentary. Everyone, please get ready. But 00:13:34.850 --> 00:13:38.009 he's on the spectrum, and he talks about scripting 00:13:38.009 --> 00:13:40.970 or mimicking people, and considering that you 00:13:40.970 --> 00:13:43.610 have both ADHD and are on the spectrum, and you've 00:13:43.610 --> 00:13:46.950 only previously... done scripted work as a director 00:13:46.950 --> 00:13:49.970 or an actor. What was it like doing a non -scripted 00:13:49.970 --> 00:13:52.629 piece where you are, as you said, thoughtfully 00:13:52.629 --> 00:13:55.649 putting out questions to provoke insightful answers 00:13:55.649 --> 00:13:57.730 that will hopefully get people to open up, but 00:13:57.730 --> 00:14:00.070 this is a new thing for you, is it not? Yeah, 00:14:00.090 --> 00:14:03.049 it is new for sure. I like how it made it more 00:14:03.049 --> 00:14:06.210 natural. I had been used to doing mostly work 00:14:06.210 --> 00:14:09.190 like either directly from a script verbatim or 00:14:09.190 --> 00:14:12.049 I had done something done like improvisation 00:14:12.049 --> 00:14:14.769 off of a script but it was still based on the 00:14:14.769 --> 00:14:17.370 basic structure of the script of like a basic 00:14:17.370 --> 00:14:19.649 like I would change the line around a little 00:14:19.649 --> 00:14:22.269 bit which thankfully like in my training the 00:14:22.269 --> 00:14:24.610 Meisner technique that I did it was that's something 00:14:24.610 --> 00:14:27.049 we worked on a lot. Being able to do a script 00:14:27.049 --> 00:14:29.340 in your own words but it was different than this, 00:14:29.379 --> 00:14:32.940 you know, basically what topics roughly might 00:14:32.940 --> 00:14:35.779 come up, but you have no idea what the individual 00:14:35.779 --> 00:14:37.620 minds are going to be. You don't know what the 00:14:37.620 --> 00:14:39.159 variables are, which is something that you're 00:14:39.159 --> 00:14:41.340 accustomed to in your work. Knowing just the 00:14:41.340 --> 00:14:44.259 general idea, even if I was going off of my words, 00:14:44.360 --> 00:14:46.340 but then I guess I was able to do that. I just 00:14:46.340 --> 00:14:48.960 had to reframe it. I mean, what was helpful is 00:14:48.960 --> 00:14:51.500 I did use bullet points. So I guess I knew, I 00:14:51.500 --> 00:14:53.759 guess like the questions that I asked everyone 00:14:53.759 --> 00:14:56.700 or the optional questions, I use that for myself 00:14:56.700 --> 00:14:58.860 as well. And it was nice. There's a part that 00:14:58.860 --> 00:15:01.659 is really freeing of not having it preplanned. 00:15:01.860 --> 00:15:03.820 How much did it stress you out when I said we 00:15:03.820 --> 00:15:05.980 should probably mix people together? I think, 00:15:06.039 --> 00:15:08.559 I don't know if it stressed me, it threw me for 00:15:08.559 --> 00:15:10.879 a loop a little bit, not in a bad way. And may 00:15:10.879 --> 00:15:12.960 I say you were very gracious about it when I 00:15:12.960 --> 00:15:15.740 did introduce it. Thanks, yeah. I know. So that's 00:15:15.740 --> 00:15:17.559 very good from a director, just so everyone knows, 00:15:17.559 --> 00:15:19.700 but I could tell that you needed some processing 00:15:19.700 --> 00:15:21.759 time, which is completely fine. Yeah, just because 00:15:21.759 --> 00:15:24.759 I had envisioned it in one style, and then I 00:15:24.759 --> 00:15:26.779 had the kind of morph, and then I guess that's 00:15:26.779 --> 00:15:28.850 one thing that came. up with the scripted versus 00:15:28.850 --> 00:15:31.909 non -scripted is that when it's non -scripted 00:15:31.909 --> 00:15:34.409 you really don't know what someone's gonna say 00:15:34.409 --> 00:15:37.289 and what order they're gonna say it so figuring 00:15:37.289 --> 00:15:40.269 out how to put each piece together becomes a 00:15:40.269 --> 00:15:43.590 little harder but that's where you were really 00:15:43.590 --> 00:15:45.669 great with that like figuring that out because 00:15:45.669 --> 00:15:48.070 I remember we had selected different clips that 00:15:48.070 --> 00:15:50.450 we wanted to use from different people but then 00:15:50.450 --> 00:15:52.809 I think you did a really great job of figuring 00:15:52.809 --> 00:15:55.509 out how to put those together and how to combine 00:15:55.509 --> 00:15:57.830 them and then turn out really great and it's 00:15:57.830 --> 00:15:59.909 the thing that people like the most about the 00:15:59.909 --> 00:16:02.809 documentary that back and forth of different 00:16:02.809 --> 00:16:05.129 people telling their stories because even though 00:16:05.129 --> 00:16:07.570 there was the logical rational like structured 00:16:07.570 --> 00:16:10.210 part of my brain that wanted it to be like this 00:16:10.210 --> 00:16:12.570 block this block this block there was also this 00:16:12.570 --> 00:16:15.590 part that i realized realized this as i was watching 00:16:15.590 --> 00:16:18.149 the individual clips that i had picked it might 00:16:18.149 --> 00:16:21.269 feel a little long if we didn't know these people 00:16:21.269 --> 00:16:23.750 i obviously would try but i can even see myself 00:16:23.750 --> 00:16:27.639 with my yeah I get the themes, just get to the 00:16:27.639 --> 00:16:30.440 point. I could see the same thing. I can see 00:16:30.440 --> 00:16:32.460 how this could feel dragged out for some people. 00:16:32.659 --> 00:16:36.279 I saw how it made sense to do it like you were 00:16:36.279 --> 00:16:38.860 proposing. I also want to say you were very gracious 00:16:38.860 --> 00:16:41.039 as a director when I proposed it, and so was 00:16:41.039 --> 00:16:43.960 everyone else. Generalistically, it's an ethical 00:16:43.960 --> 00:16:46.740 gray area. to take people's stories even with 00:16:46.740 --> 00:16:48.940 the best intentions and cut and paste them in 00:16:48.940 --> 00:16:51.840 a way that's a bit more patch quilting or something 00:16:51.840 --> 00:16:54.600 and everyone after we sent them a tiny clip of 00:16:54.600 --> 00:16:57.120 what we would like to do were not just gracious 00:16:57.120 --> 00:17:00.240 but seemed to feel it was an accurate representation 00:17:00.240 --> 00:17:02.620 and as someone at least for me specifically who 00:17:02.620 --> 00:17:05.700 was nervous about doing this with people it was 00:17:05.700 --> 00:17:07.680 incredibly validating and I want to thank everyone 00:17:07.680 --> 00:17:10.099 for giving that much support back because as 00:17:10.099 --> 00:17:12.180 a writer and a journalist I and someone who's 00:17:12.180 --> 00:17:14.819 been neurodivergent has been around ever do people 00:17:14.819 --> 00:17:17.759 most of my life. There's so many ways that my 00:17:17.759 --> 00:17:20.079 ADHD brain connects all the different themes 00:17:20.079 --> 00:17:23.819 and I... personally felt that it would make more 00:17:23.819 --> 00:17:26.619 sense telling a story if we had everyone else 00:17:26.619 --> 00:17:28.779 and by the way almost no one else other than 00:17:28.779 --> 00:17:31.259 me and Gino saw anyone else's videos before they 00:17:31.259 --> 00:17:33.380 recorded which is what struck me the most was 00:17:33.380 --> 00:17:36.619 if i took that raw material and had them almost 00:17:36.619 --> 00:17:38.980 talking to each other without seeing each other 00:17:38.980 --> 00:17:40.900 i thought that might be really interesting and 00:17:40.900 --> 00:17:43.160 everyone was really really great about me doing 00:17:43.160 --> 00:17:44.500 that and so i just want to thank everyone who 00:17:44.500 --> 00:17:46.140 participated and you as well Gino for letting 00:17:46.140 --> 00:17:48.440 me do because that was a you know a huge leap 00:17:48.440 --> 00:17:49.880 from what we originally thought we were going 00:17:49.880 --> 00:17:52.190 to do yeah Yeah, no, of course. I mean, I'm glad 00:17:52.190 --> 00:17:54.930 you suggested it. It did really make it really, 00:17:54.930 --> 00:17:57.089 like, engaging. I think it made it really fun 00:17:57.089 --> 00:18:00.890 and engaging. It was a great way of showing that 00:18:00.890 --> 00:18:03.950 this is an experience that a lot of these people 00:18:03.950 --> 00:18:06.430 have. The part about masking, for example, like 00:18:06.430 --> 00:18:08.690 when we're all talking about masking, we're all 00:18:08.690 --> 00:18:10.970 saying it in different ways. We're saying it 00:18:10.970 --> 00:18:13.549 in different contexts as a part of what we were 00:18:13.549 --> 00:18:15.789 talking about before. And what I love is that 00:18:15.789 --> 00:18:18.170 you all do it, again, as I mentioned, without 00:18:18.170 --> 00:18:20.900 seeing each other's stuff. when I was doing my 00:18:20.900 --> 00:18:22.319 own, I completely forgot about everyone else's. 00:18:23.720 --> 00:18:25.599 because I was focused on trying to get words 00:18:25.599 --> 00:18:28.039 together in my head instead of writing them down. 00:18:28.400 --> 00:18:30.920 But it was, you know, the fact that so many words 00:18:30.920 --> 00:18:32.980 were common between people who weren't privy 00:18:32.980 --> 00:18:35.660 to the editing process or had seen everyone else's 00:18:35.660 --> 00:18:38.299 videos. From a journalistic perspective, this 00:18:38.299 --> 00:18:40.960 is really fascinating. Yeah, it worked so well. 00:18:41.059 --> 00:18:43.940 I wouldn't have wanted it to seem I was telling 00:18:43.940 --> 00:18:46.799 people or prompting people to say the exact same 00:18:46.799 --> 00:18:49.099 thing in the same way. And I think there's a 00:18:49.099 --> 00:18:50.940 lot of neurodivergent back and forth talking 00:18:50.940 --> 00:18:53.950 too much stuff, which I appreciate. When you're 00:18:53.950 --> 00:18:55.769 over explaining and I don't think anyone actually 00:18:55.769 --> 00:18:58.450 is over explaining in this I think there's a 00:18:58.450 --> 00:19:00.589 enthusiasm and a passion for being heard that 00:19:00.589 --> 00:19:03.529 in this documentary and it probably comes from 00:19:03.529 --> 00:19:05.670 the relationships that you have forged with these 00:19:05.670 --> 00:19:09.700 people which is a testament to you creating that 00:19:09.700 --> 00:19:11.920 trust that they are willing for that to happen 00:19:11.920 --> 00:19:13.980 and are even willing for me to remix it and are 00:19:13.980 --> 00:19:16.779 okay with that. Yeah, very grateful that I've 00:19:16.779 --> 00:19:19.420 made these great friendships with these great 00:19:19.420 --> 00:19:22.099 people, mostly from support groups, but also 00:19:22.099 --> 00:19:25.140 extended family and even one immediate family 00:19:25.140 --> 00:19:28.160 member, my father. How was that like watching 00:19:28.160 --> 00:19:30.940 your father talk about his experiences? Did he 00:19:30.940 --> 00:19:33.140 talk to you about it beforehand ever? I think 00:19:33.140 --> 00:19:36.900 not everything. I mean, I kind of knew him. really 00:19:36.900 --> 00:19:41.140 specifically said oh I started smoking weed because 00:19:41.140 --> 00:19:43.460 I had a lot of hyperactivity and I needed to 00:19:43.460 --> 00:19:46.960 calm down or I mean I knew that that was why 00:19:46.960 --> 00:19:49.720 I kind of figured it out after a while I was 00:19:49.720 --> 00:19:51.539 like yeah I know that kind of makes sense I mean 00:19:51.539 --> 00:19:54.299 it's funny because he hadn't he didn't get diagnosed 00:19:54.299 --> 00:19:58.160 ADHD Until maybe six or seven years ago, but 00:19:58.160 --> 00:20:00.400 I knew that he smoked cannabis way before that 00:20:00.400 --> 00:20:03.160 and I knew that he was hyperactive Before that 00:20:03.160 --> 00:20:06.819 was never like oh, this is like what led to this 00:20:06.819 --> 00:20:08.339 And I want to thank your father as well for being 00:20:08.339 --> 00:20:11.259 this open. Yeah A lot of fathers wouldn't be 00:20:11.259 --> 00:20:13.619 so crunchy. We love you Which yeah is like what 00:20:13.619 --> 00:20:16.500 is really great about my dad for sure. I mean 00:20:16.500 --> 00:20:21.130 meant one of the many things It's never direct 00:20:21.130 --> 00:20:23.450 I don't know I feel like outside of the documentary 00:20:23.450 --> 00:20:25.869 He'll never really tell me directly like oh, 00:20:25.930 --> 00:20:28.509 yeah, I had this or that because of ADHD But 00:20:28.509 --> 00:20:31.630 I can just I can see it I can see it one on I 00:20:31.630 --> 00:20:33.390 had to come I had to go to the office and I was 00:20:33.390 --> 00:20:35.529 doing this and then I got well And I got distracted 00:20:35.529 --> 00:20:38.609 with this or that and I'm like, yeah More open 00:20:38.609 --> 00:20:40.569 with you about things. I mean, it's been a very 00:20:40.569 --> 00:20:42.369 short time since we've put this on the internet 00:20:42.369 --> 00:20:44.630 But do you feel it's affected your relationship 00:20:44.630 --> 00:20:51.200 in any way? I think I mean If not, you guys had 00:20:51.200 --> 00:20:53.460 an open relationship anyways. Yeah, I think we 00:20:53.460 --> 00:20:55.880 had a pretty good open relationship, but it's 00:20:55.880 --> 00:21:01.500 it's like it's still Cool to like see to see 00:21:01.500 --> 00:21:03.640 him tell it and then cuz I guess I had already 00:21:03.640 --> 00:21:07.799 kind of pieced this together But to see him tell 00:21:07.799 --> 00:21:10.140 it and then from his perspective and then I don't 00:21:10.140 --> 00:21:12.819 know if I remember like specific It's just like 00:21:12.819 --> 00:21:14.859 in the and I don't want to I don't want to spoil 00:21:14.859 --> 00:21:16.660 it for people either. So probably better if I 00:21:16.660 --> 00:21:19.180 don't say what it was specifically but like in 00:21:19.180 --> 00:21:21.900 the beginning because one of the prompts was 00:21:21.900 --> 00:21:24.019 like what were the first differences you noticed 00:21:24.019 --> 00:21:26.839 and so and so and so I guess to hear him talking 00:21:26.839 --> 00:21:29.380 about all of that in the context of ADHD and 00:21:29.380 --> 00:21:32.000 then now knowing that he has ADHD and it's just 00:21:32.000 --> 00:21:34.220 like I guess in general like even if we're not 00:21:34.220 --> 00:21:36.940 talking about it day to day like when I see these 00:21:36.940 --> 00:21:39.140 things and when I notice these things in him 00:21:39.140 --> 00:21:41.960 it feels kind of cool it's different than just 00:21:41.960 --> 00:21:44.619 observing or just kind of deducing in your head 00:21:44.619 --> 00:21:48.059 as we talk about my dad being in the film, what 00:21:48.059 --> 00:21:51.819 was it like for you to watch your brother in 00:21:51.819 --> 00:21:55.599 the film and to edit your brother? Did it bring 00:21:55.599 --> 00:21:58.859 anything up for you that hadn't come up before? 00:21:59.279 --> 00:22:01.240 Oh, it did. Alex, I hope you never have to listen 00:22:01.240 --> 00:22:02.799 to this because I'm about to compliment you. 00:22:03.000 --> 00:22:06.799 He has such a lovely voice. He really does. It's 00:22:06.799 --> 00:22:09.940 upsetting and he's worked so hard. on doing, 00:22:10.079 --> 00:22:12.400 and he mentions this in the documentary, trying 00:22:12.400 --> 00:22:15.380 to figure out how to use his voice and his face 00:22:15.380 --> 00:22:18.240 and he's just so good at it and I wish it wasn't 00:22:18.240 --> 00:22:20.859 so painful for him to figure out who he has become. 00:22:21.519 --> 00:22:24.059 He is my best friend. We fought a lot, but he 00:22:24.059 --> 00:22:26.660 is my best friend and he is an absolute joy to 00:22:26.660 --> 00:22:28.819 edit, but it did bring up a lot of memories. 00:22:29.019 --> 00:22:31.730 I did remember. but I hadn't thought about in 00:22:31.730 --> 00:22:35.170 over a decade and a half being there with him 00:22:35.170 --> 00:22:39.470 and going through kind of emotional relationship 00:22:39.470 --> 00:22:41.809 one -on -one with the therapist and some very 00:22:41.809 --> 00:22:43.589 unhelpful things that she did and some helpful 00:22:43.589 --> 00:22:46.829 things I just I don't like to say proud of him 00:22:46.829 --> 00:22:49.470 for me proud kind of makes me feel like I'm responsible 00:22:49.470 --> 00:22:51.769 for some of it I was there I was a kid I'd like 00:22:51.769 --> 00:22:53.690 to say I tried to help but that's all him and 00:22:53.690 --> 00:22:55.470 I know he tries really hard and there's this 00:22:55.470 --> 00:22:59.099 one moment where he talks about his nuclear cooldown 00:22:59.099 --> 00:23:02.079 playlist and I know his face so well and he looks 00:23:02.079 --> 00:23:04.980 so he does this little side grin with himself 00:23:04.980 --> 00:23:08.259 on camera and I was it just made me I had to 00:23:08.259 --> 00:23:11.200 pause it and it almost made me cry really how 00:23:11.200 --> 00:23:13.559 happy it made me he was like I have this playlist 00:23:13.559 --> 00:23:16.019 called called nuclear cooldown and then he just 00:23:16.019 --> 00:23:20.359 sort of does this grin yeah it's an awesome playlist 00:23:20.359 --> 00:23:23.220 title and I know yeah that's you should be proud 00:23:23.220 --> 00:23:25.240 of that you absolutely should be and it was it 00:23:25.240 --> 00:23:27.400 just brought me so much joy i watched that over 00:23:27.400 --> 00:23:29.579 and over and over it was a really good moment 00:23:29.579 --> 00:23:31.980 because it's just really authentic and like yeah 00:23:31.980 --> 00:23:34.700 like that's i know it's awesome i'm like you 00:23:34.700 --> 00:23:38.720 are yeah and to hear him talk about things that 00:23:38.720 --> 00:23:40.579 even i didn't know he remembered when he was 00:23:40.579 --> 00:23:43.079 first diagnosed it wasn't being autistic it was 00:23:43.079 --> 00:23:45.420 a developmental disorder i didn't know he remembered 00:23:45.420 --> 00:23:48.359 that you know and to hear him talk about things 00:23:48.359 --> 00:23:51.130 that I haven't talked to him about in that context 00:23:51.130 --> 00:23:53.190 or that specifically in years because we've both 00:23:53.190 --> 00:23:55.170 been there, so why talk about it? We just sort 00:23:55.170 --> 00:23:57.890 of share memories of trauma experiences and make 00:23:57.890 --> 00:23:59.769 jokes about it. We don't specifically talk about 00:23:59.769 --> 00:24:01.630 it anymore because we were both there to hear 00:24:01.630 --> 00:24:03.789 him say it. It made me very emotional in a good 00:24:03.789 --> 00:24:06.630 way. I think he's amazing. Yeah, no, I agree. 00:24:06.630 --> 00:24:09.950 I'm really glad that he was down to participate 00:24:09.950 --> 00:24:12.569 in the documentary. I feel like he touched on 00:24:12.569 --> 00:24:15.210 every one of the optional questions or like topics 00:24:15.210 --> 00:24:17.970 or whatnot and in a great way just to explain 00:24:17.960 --> 00:24:22.200 did he got the masking down yeah that's masking 00:24:22.200 --> 00:24:30.730 yeah yeah and that's what I find so not necessarily 00:24:30.730 --> 00:24:32.049 admirable because people shouldn't have to do 00:24:32.049 --> 00:24:34.089 that. I mean, I understand because I've been 00:24:34.089 --> 00:24:35.970 in a similar situation with the ADHD, but not 00:24:35.970 --> 00:24:37.710 quite to the extent he does. There's a, he and 00:24:37.710 --> 00:24:39.950 I both have this performance aspect of our lives 00:24:39.950 --> 00:24:43.150 that we're trying to mediate at the moment. And 00:24:43.150 --> 00:24:45.609 the way he's managed to do it with more challenges 00:24:45.609 --> 00:24:48.490 than I've had to deal with in his case is really 00:24:48.490 --> 00:24:51.509 spectacular. I call him the dude. The dude. Like 00:24:51.509 --> 00:24:53.430 from the Big Lebouts. We call, in my family call 00:24:53.430 --> 00:24:56.599 him the dude. I feel, yeah, I also feel like 00:24:56.599 --> 00:25:00.460 really close with my dad and I do feel like he's 00:25:00.460 --> 00:25:03.859 probably my best friend as well. Realizing that 00:25:03.859 --> 00:25:06.579 there was a lot of kind of like masking and kind 00:25:06.579 --> 00:25:09.119 of like negative feedback and things that he 00:25:09.119 --> 00:25:11.880 had to deal with as well. He had to feel like 00:25:11.880 --> 00:25:14.500 he had to cover some things up. Yeah, like covering 00:25:14.500 --> 00:25:16.759 up and or just feeling really ashamed or I still 00:25:16.759 --> 00:25:18.940 kind of catch that sometimes where I mean just 00:25:18.940 --> 00:25:21.259 like as a trauma response where he's like embarrassed 00:25:21.259 --> 00:25:23.940 or ashamed about being laid or or getting it 00:25:23.720 --> 00:25:27.150 excited or talking or interrupting. like we all 00:25:27.150 --> 00:25:29.470 do that but i guess it's just i because i can 00:25:29.470 --> 00:25:32.049 see that too like i can see the thinking the 00:25:32.049 --> 00:25:34.289 thinking so there's that part that's sad too 00:25:34.289 --> 00:25:36.410 that i'm like darn it like i mean not only does 00:25:36.410 --> 00:25:38.670 he have a lot of these same things that i have 00:25:38.670 --> 00:25:41.130 or that i noticed but he also had to go through 00:25:41.130 --> 00:25:43.809 a lot of this kind of masking stuff but even 00:25:43.809 --> 00:25:46.970 maybe more so because he grew up decades before 00:25:46.970 --> 00:25:50.430 i did and the environment there was like even 00:25:50.430 --> 00:25:53.009 like way way and he mentions it in the documentary 00:25:53.009 --> 00:25:56.849 also that there was a lot lot less understanding 00:25:56.849 --> 00:26:01.089 it is incredibly difficult and the again what 00:26:01.089 --> 00:26:02.390 you were talking about the grace that we have 00:26:02.390 --> 00:26:06.150 to have for ourselves and for the information 00:26:06.150 --> 00:26:09.089 that we have and also reminding ourselves that 00:26:09.089 --> 00:26:11.549 now that we have more information there is a 00:26:11.549 --> 00:26:14.009 line to that grace if you have access to that 00:26:14.009 --> 00:26:16.769 information if say people like you or me are 00:26:16.769 --> 00:26:19.279 in your family and we're giving you access to 00:26:19.279 --> 00:26:21.019 this information and you decide to do nothing 00:26:21.019 --> 00:26:23.099 about it and to continue hurting people around 00:26:23.099 --> 00:26:26.960 you, that is now on you. I think it is an important 00:26:26.960 --> 00:26:30.180 point to make that when we have people like you 00:26:30.180 --> 00:26:33.700 and me who spend lots of our time researching, 00:26:33.799 --> 00:26:35.900 making sure that our sources are accurate, there 00:26:35.900 --> 00:26:37.599 is so much more information. We're so careful 00:26:37.599 --> 00:26:39.880 about how we are filtering it and communicating 00:26:39.880 --> 00:26:42.319 to people, which a lot of other people with platforms 00:26:42.319 --> 00:26:45.700 do not do. There is a point at which if people 00:26:45.700 --> 00:26:47.539 in our inner circle have that information and 00:26:47.539 --> 00:26:49.819 decide to do nothing with it. Yeah, exactly. 00:26:49.980 --> 00:26:53.880 It's on them. And also have the financial ability 00:26:53.880 --> 00:26:56.599 to say, go get help, right? Because not everyone 00:26:56.599 --> 00:26:59.259 else does. But if they do, or they don't know 00:26:59.259 --> 00:27:00.779 where to turn to, or they decide to do nothing, 00:27:00.859 --> 00:27:03.900 that's quite damning for them. And it's sad to 00:27:03.900 --> 00:27:05.420 watch, but there's nothing you and I can do. 00:27:05.660 --> 00:27:07.880 And what's great about your family and my family 00:27:07.880 --> 00:27:11.859 is that all of them, thanks to privilege also 00:27:12.029 --> 00:27:14.170 deciding that they needed to do better for their 00:27:14.170 --> 00:27:16.390 children. These are all huge decisions that they 00:27:16.390 --> 00:27:19.009 had to make that probably affected their ego 00:27:19.009 --> 00:27:21.470 and themselves and their sense of worth. They 00:27:21.470 --> 00:27:24.089 decided to do it. Yeah. It's not that it's not 00:27:24.089 --> 00:27:26.430 scary. I have a lot of respect for the fact that 00:27:26.430 --> 00:27:29.049 they would do that. Yeah, me too. I know it's 00:27:29.049 --> 00:27:30.930 not always the case. I know that there are a 00:27:30.930 --> 00:27:33.569 lot of people that have a really hard time, a 00:27:33.569 --> 00:27:35.609 really strained relationship with their family 00:27:35.609 --> 00:27:38.970 because their family doesn't try to understand. 00:27:39.190 --> 00:27:42.839 There is... a lot of intention that has to be 00:27:42.839 --> 00:27:45.740 present and the need to better oneself. I think 00:27:45.740 --> 00:27:48.339 with the information we have, depending on your 00:27:48.339 --> 00:27:50.519 financial status, what kind of privilege you 00:27:50.519 --> 00:27:53.059 have, your access to information and resources, 00:27:53.440 --> 00:27:55.279 you and I are talking from a place of a lot of 00:27:55.279 --> 00:27:57.839 privilege. I want to make it very clear that 00:27:57.839 --> 00:27:59.640 anyone listening to this where your parents did 00:27:59.640 --> 00:28:02.099 not have that and are trying or didn't want to, 00:28:02.140 --> 00:28:03.740 or you don't know how to talk to them about it, 00:28:03.900 --> 00:28:06.579 that is what it is. And that's not because of 00:28:06.579 --> 00:28:08.829 them. Sometimes it might be. There are a lot 00:28:08.829 --> 00:28:10.569 of parents who don't do that because they have 00:28:10.569 --> 00:28:12.269 the information. Just decide that it makes them 00:28:12.269 --> 00:28:15.009 too uncomfortable. Yeah, yeah. I know sometimes 00:28:15.009 --> 00:28:16.670 it's because they don't have the information, 00:28:16.849 --> 00:28:19.509 but I know that it does happen a lot that they'll 00:28:19.509 --> 00:28:21.950 have the information and they'll still be like 00:28:21.950 --> 00:28:23.789 really uncomfortable. That makes sense because 00:28:23.789 --> 00:28:26.529 then they have to rethink their entire life and 00:28:26.529 --> 00:28:28.549 they might not want to do that. Yeah. And that's 00:28:28.549 --> 00:28:29.970 a choice. That's really hard for their kids. 00:28:30.049 --> 00:28:34.220 Yeah. the best thing a person can do if you're 00:28:34.220 --> 00:28:37.140 a newly diagnosed neurodivergent or self -diagnosed 00:28:37.140 --> 00:28:39.980 or your parents are reeling from the realization 00:28:39.980 --> 00:28:41.940 that they too might be neurodivergent because 00:28:41.940 --> 00:28:44.000 you're neurodivergent the best thing you can 00:28:44.000 --> 00:28:46.880 do is try and keep an open conversation and know 00:28:46.880 --> 00:28:50.119 that as long as you provide answers for them 00:28:50.119 --> 00:28:53.099 or try to give them space you're doing the best 00:28:53.099 --> 00:28:56.160 you can they can and you can if they don't respond 00:28:56.160 --> 00:28:59.400 in the same way that's not on you yeah it's I 00:28:59.400 --> 00:29:02.940 seek out how it can be hard to not internalize 00:29:02.940 --> 00:29:05.680 it. I know especially when people are just discovering 00:29:05.680 --> 00:29:09.779 that they're autistic or ADHD. I know that imposter 00:29:09.779 --> 00:29:12.799 syndrome happens a lot and then it's just unfortunate 00:29:12.799 --> 00:29:16.019 that a lot of times they go to tell their their 00:29:16.019 --> 00:29:18.599 family and their family. Jessica talks about 00:29:18.599 --> 00:29:20.940 this in the documentary as well that yeah her 00:29:20.940 --> 00:29:23.259 she was the first one to diagnose herself said 00:29:23.259 --> 00:29:26.930 that Oh, she was just the youngest or in the 00:29:26.930 --> 00:29:29.289 therapy said that she made eye contact and quote 00:29:29.289 --> 00:29:31.470 unquote had empathy, which you've talked about 00:29:31.470 --> 00:29:34.029 extensively how frustrating it is to hear that. 00:29:34.289 --> 00:29:36.849 Yeah, because people assume that because we don't 00:29:36.849 --> 00:29:39.369 show it in the same traditional way most people 00:29:39.369 --> 00:29:41.710 are used to it, then they think that we don't 00:29:41.710 --> 00:29:45.930 have it. Emotionally, I feel even it feels like 00:29:45.930 --> 00:29:49.250 I feel more empathy than most people. But and 00:29:49.250 --> 00:29:51.910 you have to learn to regulate it. Much more than 00:29:51.910 --> 00:29:54.130 a lot of people do in order to make sure the 00:29:54.130 --> 00:29:57.650 people around you know you care Yeah, you're 00:29:57.650 --> 00:30:00.029 doing that little bit of extra effort. Mm -hmm. 00:30:00.029 --> 00:30:04.789 Yes If you didn't that would be sad Yeah, I mean 00:30:04.789 --> 00:30:11.150 I wish I didn't have to but Yeah, but it's annoying 00:30:11.150 --> 00:30:14.190 like I I do wish like I do really hope that at 00:30:14.190 --> 00:30:17.849 one point we get to a point where people don't 00:30:17.849 --> 00:30:20.069 have to do that necessarily where there's enough 00:30:20.069 --> 00:30:23.089 understanding about these different ways of communicating 00:30:23.089 --> 00:30:25.690 and so there doesn't have to be like all this 00:30:25.690 --> 00:30:28.730 effort put into like trying to regulate how you're 00:30:28.730 --> 00:30:30.450 saying something that you can just say something 00:30:30.450 --> 00:30:34.150 and be some way and be understood. I think the 00:30:34.150 --> 00:30:36.490 language point you made earlier is a great explanation, 00:30:36.690 --> 00:30:38.470 which is that, for example, as the world has 00:30:38.470 --> 00:30:40.710 become more connected, more international, more 00:30:40.710 --> 00:30:42.190 connected to other cultures, more connected to 00:30:42.190 --> 00:30:44.509 other languages, people have, not very well, 00:30:44.589 --> 00:30:47.750 but some people have started to make space for, 00:30:47.849 --> 00:30:49.009 oh, this person's trying to connect with me, 00:30:49.029 --> 00:30:50.829 but they don't have the language, they have their 00:30:50.829 --> 00:30:53.670 own language. Yeah. One of the things that I 00:30:53.670 --> 00:30:56.109 really enjoyed about what your father contributed 00:30:56.109 --> 00:31:01.509 as someone who just has ADHD, as do I, was his 00:31:01.660 --> 00:31:04.579 motor metaphor. So for context, I've heard a 00:31:04.579 --> 00:31:08.759 lot of vehicle metaphors and similes about ADHD. 00:31:09.759 --> 00:31:11.380 I thought I'd heard them all. I've heard the 00:31:11.380 --> 00:31:14.220 ones about having a Ferrari motor but having 00:31:14.220 --> 00:31:18.220 tricycle wheels. I've heard ADHD is like being 00:31:18.220 --> 00:31:21.740 on a, you know, a train with no railway. Those 00:31:21.740 --> 00:31:23.640 things did bother me a little bit. The Ferrari 00:31:23.640 --> 00:31:27.039 and the tricycle wheels particular because it's 00:31:27.039 --> 00:31:29.759 not so much that I can't do it it's that or that 00:31:29.759 --> 00:31:31.880 I don't have the materials for it which is what 00:31:31.880 --> 00:31:34.339 that implies is that everything around me is 00:31:34.339 --> 00:31:36.660 not supporting me yeah one of the things that 00:31:36.660 --> 00:31:38.940 your father used that is motor related that I 00:31:38.940 --> 00:31:41.779 did end up cutting together and I felt so seen 00:31:41.779 --> 00:31:44.539 whilst I did it him talking about starting at 00:31:44.539 --> 00:31:47.599 a certain speed with ADHD and being asked to 00:31:47.599 --> 00:31:50.730 park in that speed yeah and that really resonated 00:31:50.730 --> 00:31:52.470 with me because one of the things that i get 00:31:52.470 --> 00:31:55.789 told to this day is oh you need to calm down 00:31:55.789 --> 00:31:58.329 you're doing too much or you're getting too excited 00:31:58.329 --> 00:32:01.650 or why can't you just chill yes i've been asked 00:32:01.650 --> 00:32:05.230 that as well i can't but if i'm supposed to be 00:32:05.230 --> 00:32:08.069 around people i'm friends with and it's an appropriate 00:32:08.069 --> 00:32:10.450 situation everyone's sharing i'm gonna go faster 00:32:10.450 --> 00:32:13.640 mentally other people and I spend a lot of time 00:32:13.640 --> 00:32:15.460 trying to make sure that I ask people questions 00:32:15.460 --> 00:32:17.339 not because I have to mentally think about it 00:32:17.339 --> 00:32:19.259 because I've raced ahead and I go I'm actually 00:32:19.259 --> 00:32:20.759 interested in what this person has to say I have 00:32:20.759 --> 00:32:22.859 to go back to what I thought but it's the parking 00:32:22.859 --> 00:32:25.700 metaphor that your father used I don't have a 00:32:25.700 --> 00:32:28.680 park it's like he said like trying to park a 00:32:28.680 --> 00:32:30.960 car at 20 miles an hour or something like that 00:32:32.449 --> 00:32:34.509 When everyone's around you and if it works like 00:32:34.509 --> 00:32:36.890 as a journalist it works, right? But it also 00:32:36.890 --> 00:32:39.630 burns you out And so having to learn how to not 00:32:39.630 --> 00:32:41.769 have people take advantage of that and then tell 00:32:41.769 --> 00:32:43.990 you off for when you can't stop is very difficult 00:32:43.990 --> 00:32:46.849 Yeah, when you are going at whatever miles an 00:32:46.849 --> 00:32:50.220 hour from I get up. I'm just there yeah that 00:32:50.220 --> 00:32:52.519 often happens with me as well it's a struggle 00:32:52.519 --> 00:32:55.099 sometimes because like it really is about regulation 00:32:55.099 --> 00:32:57.859 sometimes it's not enough dopamine and sometimes 00:32:57.859 --> 00:33:00.660 it's too much dopamine societally there's a lot 00:33:00.660 --> 00:33:03.299 of focus on the not enough dopamine part it's 00:33:03.299 --> 00:33:05.839 not just that the opposite can happen i can also 00:33:05.839 --> 00:33:08.500 have too much and then i can't slow down even 00:33:08.500 --> 00:33:11.119 if i want to slow down The fact that even in 00:33:11.119 --> 00:33:13.220 different generations, your father and I could 00:33:13.220 --> 00:33:15.579 be edited together. Yeah, no, because that was 00:33:15.579 --> 00:33:17.740 really cool. That was another part of the documentary 00:33:17.740 --> 00:33:19.920 that I really liked. I felt like I was talking 00:33:19.920 --> 00:33:22.000 to your dad in that moment. Yeah, I felt like 00:33:22.000 --> 00:33:23.880 when I was watching, I felt like you two were 00:33:23.880 --> 00:33:26.559 talking to each other. I'm sure that some people 00:33:26.559 --> 00:33:29.460 would probably assume it was scripted just because 00:33:29.460 --> 00:33:31.740 it was well done. We're touching on such similar 00:33:31.740 --> 00:33:34.259 themes. And speaking from a shared experience 00:33:34.259 --> 00:33:36.700 as people with the HG is different but similar, 00:33:36.900 --> 00:33:39.160 even in different generations, even coming from 00:33:39.160 --> 00:33:41.460 different countries. What you've, I think, done 00:33:41.460 --> 00:33:43.960 such a great job with, and I'm again very glad 00:33:43.960 --> 00:33:47.180 to be a part of, is finding people who feel comfortable 00:33:47.180 --> 00:33:49.440 talking about it in a way that, for me as an 00:33:49.440 --> 00:33:52.269 editor... made it really easy to find the connections 00:33:52.269 --> 00:33:55.009 in those stories genuine and not forced. We're 00:33:55.009 --> 00:33:57.009 just talking to each other without actually seeing 00:33:57.009 --> 00:33:59.150 each other and I think that's part of this documentary 00:33:59.150 --> 00:34:01.710 is we just so desperately want to connect to 00:34:01.710 --> 00:34:04.829 each other and we are but it's so difficult to 00:34:04.829 --> 00:34:07.869 do that without pushback and without being acknowledged 00:34:07.869 --> 00:34:10.670 and that's all we're asking. So I wanted to thank 00:34:10.670 --> 00:34:12.690 you for the opportunity to work on this and to 00:34:12.690 --> 00:34:14.389 work with you because it was really, really fun. 00:34:14.510 --> 00:34:17.650 I'm grateful that you were also willing to do 00:34:17.650 --> 00:34:19.869 it and take on the time. It was my pleasure. 00:34:20.050 --> 00:34:22.710 It was absolutely my pleasure. The short documentary 00:34:22.710 --> 00:34:26.909 is going to be screened at the Sanford Meisner 00:34:26.909 --> 00:34:31.289 Film Festival with 2025 in San Francisco, California. 00:34:31.769 --> 00:34:33.829 You will be there to answer questions. Yes, I 00:34:33.829 --> 00:34:36.429 will be there answering questions given the exorbitant 00:34:36.429 --> 00:34:40.190 cost and also logistics of air travel from the 00:34:40.190 --> 00:34:43.570 UK to... San Francisco X unfortunately won't 00:34:43.570 --> 00:34:45.869 be able to make it but I will be there answering 00:34:45.869 --> 00:34:48.550 questions and then also for anyone who wants 00:34:48.550 --> 00:34:51.210 to watch the for anyone else who can't make it 00:34:51.210 --> 00:34:53.889 and wants to watch the film on YouTube I will 00:34:53.889 --> 00:34:56.800 be linking that as well. And that is completely 00:34:56.800 --> 00:35:00.539 free. Yes. So thank you once again, everyone, 00:35:00.719 --> 00:35:03.340 for listening. Welcome back to Unpacked Neural 00:35:03.340 --> 00:35:06.539 Queerness. And I hope you enjoyed this episode 00:35:06.539 --> 00:35:10.719 of us kind of giving the insight of how we made 00:35:10.719 --> 00:35:13.019 this documentary. And then more importantly, 00:35:13.619 --> 00:35:15.300 I hope you enjoyed the documentary as well.