Hello, welcome to another episode of unpacking
neuro queerness today I have my friend X back
on the podcast Welcome back X. Nice to be back.
We are going to talk about the shooter trope
the quiet kid turned school shooter trope it's
so problematic to start out this episode i'm
gonna talk about an experience i had when i first
realized that this was a thing because you didn't
know it was a thing because i didn't know it
was a thing of course because for me that was
just like existing but without a gun without
a gun and without like these thoughts I didn't
know people thought I had these kind of thoughts
so it was when I was in a acting class it was
actually part of the cohort that I was with for
two years and or two and a half years which is
kind of like it made me a little more bothered
that this would come up I knew these people for
a while and anyways I had done like this two
-year training with them and we were at the very
last part of this training which was sort of
an auditioning intensive and we would go through
everyone other people would give suggestions
what they they thought what type this person
could play so i had seven classmates only one
of them to be fair like thankfully only one of
them made this suggestion but it was a suggestion
that i could play the quiet misunderstood kid
in a high school that becomes a school shooter.
Yeah, that was the gist and there wasn't even
any elaboration. It was like that was the gist
of it. And I just remember that not sitting well
with me. Understandable and they're saying yeah,
and I couldn't figure out why like I I mean I
guess I kind of knew why but I guess my first
thought was like Why the the fact that I had
worked with this person or been in this class
with this person for two and a half years? Okay,
like yes I am like more quiet and like I don't
present like other people do and I guess if someone
doesn't know me that well yet that might scare
them or they might be unsure but the fact that
I been in this class with this person for two
and a half years just makes me like wow you will
I mean maybe if they didn't think of me specifically
as doing that but just like this whole idea they
thought you were marketable that's yeah yeah
it's unfortunate because that comes from an entire
culture that creates this assumption about neurodivergent
people especially white male or people on the
spectrum. If you're quiet, then you must be dangerous.
Yeah. Well, what if I play someone that's like,
you could, you could still have the shy, quiet,
misunderstood part because I could easily do
that. And it's an experience I've had. But then
what if the person, instead of going to, but
making the leap from like quiet kid to school
shooter, like what bothered me, there's quite
a leap. So what bothered me was like, instead
of that, how about this person is quiet and misunderstood
and then find their community and then find their
passion and then becomes, I don't know, like
a meteorologist or an actor take big passions
of mine like or a pilot if my mom didn't say,
yeah, my mom really does not want me to become
a pilot and I understand why. Because she loves
you. She doesn't want you to get hurt. So give
that up to your mom. I'll give that up to my
mom. But I'm like, okay, like I could become
all these things. Like, why does it have to be?
Why is it? It's like you said, like, they thought
of me. Oh, like, that's the type I could do.
Like, that's the character. It's marketable.
Yeah. As a plot device in a lot of different
high school films, the misunderstood kid who
comes in halfway through the year, very bright,
doesn't care what anyone thinks, has some very
interesting and poignant political ideas, but
ends up being a psychopath. There's an entire
trope, and the only reason that they're introduced
is to keep the plot coming along. Mm -hmm I see
yeah of the quiet kid in the background Yeah,
many people see that and don't make any other
observation other than oh, this is a film, but
I will decide to make this Observation everywhere
else in my life because I don't either know that
the people I know are on the spectrum or neurodivergent
Or I just don't care. Yeah for an actor to decide
I'm not gonna think about this person's internal
life at all I'm just gonna decide this is what
they are as a 2d thing is not a sign of a good
actor. Yeah, I agree. It's equating being shy
and misunderstood with becoming a sh - it's a
big leap. Like, of course there are some people
that happen to be autistic that do happen to
go down that path, but it's not because of being
autistic. The leap that people are making, although
it's not correct to do this to people on the
spectrum, when it comes to - intelligent white
quiet males. There is a type. A lot of privileged
white men who believe they're entitled to something
and they don't get it and historically they have
tended to be the shooters. A lot of them are
very bright, again entitled. Some of them have
diabetes but no one ever mentions that as a cause
of shooting. Some of them have other mental health
problems that aren't being taken care of because
of a broken medical system. Yeah, exactly exactly.
It's like the and access to guns Not excusing
what these people did at all. Yeah, but access
to weapons without proper vetting as well as
a lack of Health care systems in place for these
people to go to or a community of other people
that they feel they can speak to Because men
isolate each other so they can't speak to a lot
of men isolate each other, they don't have other
emotional connections to men. They create really
toxic communities, incels being one of the most
famous ones at the moment. And a lot of incels
become school shooters, but we don't talk about
them as incels, we talk about them as, or as
the news does it, as lone wolves, as loners,
as, again, shy, intelligent, isolating, very
fixated. Yeah. And I can see how people would
mistake those things for people on the spectrum,
but that there's now enough information, places
for people to go to understand how people on
the spectrum work, what the spectrum actually
means for them not to conflate you too. There
are different kinds of autistic people and I
still see so many people that think autism means
a young white non -speaking boy. Usually a child
like there are people that don't even seem to
be aware of Autistic adults there are people
that think that like autism is supposed to look
a certain way my neighbor I tell him that I'm
autistic and I mean he had probably already kind
of noticed that I was a little shy and whatnot
But then I tell him I'm autistic or it comes
up somehow because of my podcast and then he's
like, oh I had no idea And then he thinks he's
being supportive, which is sad. He thinks he's
being nice. He thinks he's being supportive.
And that's just like, no, like good intentions,
really bad delivery. Yeah. You shouldn't be ashamed.
You hide it well. Yeah. It's like, Oh, thanks.
Yeah. Oh my God. You mask so well. My stepmom
one time and I think she's learned she was like,
Oh, but your autism is very mild. And I'm like,
Oh, but literally it looks mild to you from the
outside maybe and then it's also like inferring
that oh you're not like those autistics I mean
I just feel like when most people see spectrum
they think of it as a line which is a problem
and I get why people would think of it that way
because now I know that the spectrum is like
a wheel like a chart there's so many people including
this person and many other people that I've come
across that think of it as a line Is it surprising
that people think of things as a binary? No.
Is it incredibly limiting? Yes. People tend to
describe non -amateur people, queer people, things
that they don't understand, in terms of how it
inconveniences them. Mm -hmm, yeah. That straight
line you're talking about is mildly inconveniences
me, or it really inconveniences me. Uh -huh,
exactly. It's not based on the individual. are
autistic people, or can be shooters. Actually,
they're not. They're statistically more likely
to be victims. I agree, yeah. They're more likely
to be victims of social abuse, of bullying. And
I think a lot of people, coming back to the insult
point, think, oh, a lot of specifically white
men, because people who make these kinds of assumptions
also assume that people on the spectrum are white
men, as you've mentioned. They go, oh, so all
of that not being understood emotional repression
will come out as violence. And there's precedent
for this. It's a bit like watching conspiracy
theorists put things together, and you can see
them almost get to the next step. We're like,
perhaps emotionally repressed men need help.
Sounds like we might be on the spectrum. It is
a logic to it, and I can't, again, blame them
for making these connections, but there is just
one step they're not getting, and it ends up
harming an enormous community of people who are
completely innocent. While letting a lot of other
people go scot -free. And those people who are
going scot -free are people who are not regulating
guns. If you want to stop shootings, you start
with regulating gun control. Any other country
you look at that has gun laws, I can't even,
I have a statistic somewhere, I don't even really
want to look it up because it's depressing. The
amount of shootings that happen in the US in
one year versus, I think it's like in Australia.
over 50 years yeah i'm not saying that it doesn't
happen at all in other places and i mean there
have been it happens occasionally occasionally
it's not like it happens here and even like it's
not something that you have to be constantly
nervous and worried about it's ubiquitous that's
the word in the u .s and people have assumed
that that is normal and it is not yeah There
was a really lovely article in 2015. It's behind
a paywall. So we found a free version for you
guys by Andrew Song. He wrote a book called,
I think it's Far From the Tree. He is a, I believe,
queer autistic person, and he went around to
kids with Down syndrome. on the spectrum ADHD
a whole bunch of other stuff and talk to their
parents wrote a really lovely book who also put
the link to that in the show notes and he wrote
this thing called the myth of the autistic shooter
as an op -ed contribution and he makes a point
about how people are trying to make sense of
inexplicable violence that it's difficult to
accept so like as a human you want to insert
logic you're trying to find patterns a lot of
these myths as they put it about quote unquote,
autistic shooters, come from the last 20 or so
years of online content or discussion. There
was a Yahoo chat about this mother named Laura
Harper. She characterized herself and her sons
having Asperger's syndrome, which is a category
that is no longer in medical use. She attended
a school that cares to children's special needs.
And she was talking about a Facebook page called
Families Against Autistic Shooters, which have
links to the annoying one. Which one? Autism
Speaks, that's what it is. Autism Speaks, okay,
yeah. I know that I forgot it, that's how forgettable
they should be. Quote -unquote, they reacted
about the soulless dead eyes of autistic children
and characterized them as cold calculating killing
machines with no regard for human life. And what
do all shooters over the last few years have
in common? A lack of empathy and compassion due
to autism. Oh, the classic lack of empathy trope
as well. Some autistics do experience difficulties
with certain types of empathy I even have hyper
empathy and I know a lot of other autistic people
have this where you feel the emotion really strongly
like someone is upset or someone is distressed
or whatever it may be and you're with them and
you feel that really intensely and I'll have
kind of a shutdown from that won't know what
to say or like what to do or how to support them
because I've like been corrected because of this
in class before about when I was doing acting
exercise with my partner they start crying or
something or they have like this really emotional
reaction and I'm being perceived by the teacher
like allegedly would be by the audience by not
like as being cold by not like going right up
to them and the idea of however I should be empathizing
with them But what happens with me is I feel
their energy really intensely and it overwhelms
me. So I shut down. Probably one of the things
that I've been... And I know this happens to
a lot of other autistic people too, but that
we get misjudged on the most is like... not is
that like that people read that like us having
a shutdown because we're so overwhelmed by the
emotion reading that is not having empathy and
I guess that's a whole I don't know because then
people don't look into it people don't look into
like okay but like what type of like what what
what's going on in the person's brain when this
happens and they're just like oh autism means
no empathy and like they don't even because it's
not empathy in the traditional ways that we expect.
And again, we were talking about people are in
a fear response, especially if they're concerned
about social interactions or signifiers or behavior
and shooting. They're hypervigilant anyway. They're
not in a space where their brain is going to
take in information that's going to allow them
to process the idea that some people might look
like a threat but are not. Yeah, this it surprises
me that some people like when they associate
meltdowns with like having this kind of like
a violent behavior or doing a shootout or whatever
after a meltdown I don't I don't even have energy
to get out of bed sometimes you've talked about
meltdowns before on your podcast yeah and you've
not word for word but you've said like you have
this feeling of overwhelming like sensory well
It's always a build -up. Yeah You've discussed
this and we've discussed this there's a difference
and then afterwards there's like a drop of feeling
shame Do you feel that you could do anything
other than curl up and watch your favorite television
show after one of those? No, not at all. Not
at all for like 12 or 24 hours. Like I've had
mouth towns where after the meltdown I could
barely get out of bed for like an entire day
maybe I wanted to go like to the other room and
watch some TV you have to psych yourself up to
do it I have to psych myself up like even if
I want to go get some water so it's just go to
the bathroom it's a whole thing you know so I'm
like how in the world am I gonna plan a whole
like mass Murder thing and I'm gonna go out and
like go execute this whole plan Not that you
want to not that I even want to but and it's
just like even if I wanted to like which I don't
Like I don't have I can barely get out of bed.
I'm just like what? If a white man who is not
neurodivergent is having a meltdown, you should
be slightly afraid. But... I'm being sad. You're
on must. You're on must. It's just... I think
he's a narcissist and he's not even autistic.
And even if he is, it's the least of his problems.
That's all the time I'm ever gonna give him.
Just gonna put that out there. But I was like,
you should be afraid of people like that. He
says his own spectrum is probably not. And if
he is... Occasionally there's terrible ones.
I'm sorry. Yeah, occasionally there are. Like,
there are. not all of us are perfect not all
of us are perfect like there's also people that
try to justify things you know oh he did this
because he's autistic and but no because or like
autistic like we're all perfect like we're all
blue angels no like you can be autistic and you
can still Me an asshole yeah, like it can go
I mean like unfortunately a lot of us do get
painted as assholes when we're not but they're
also people that are like genuinely genuinely
assholes, but it's like I don't know tons of
queer people who are fucking horrible. It's true
and homophobic and transphobic and sexist. And
terrible to especially like bio -racer and all
of that. So many people within the queer community,
like for straight people and people who don't
understand any of this, it's very similar to
not all queer people have great fashion sense.
It's true because it's a stereotype. Very stupid
analogy but you can't expect every gay man to
be yes. Yeah, exactly. Some of them are slobs
and that's fine, but they don't hurt anyone.
People in the UN does. People who are autistic
shooters that are mostly non -existent have other
problems and make it as someone else's problem.
They do exist, but they're in the minority. The
overarching characteristic is that they are mostly
men. Socially isolated which can happen to autistic
people which makes sense. Oh, yeah, but it's
not Yeah, but that's not why it's a correlation
not a causation Exactly. Yeah much like a vaccine,
you know, the whole vaccines cause on which is
another whole episode I'd like to probably do
very clear point of correlation versus causation
Mm -hmm. Yeah studies that should be done are
how what are these people's home lives? Like
are they getting mental health support? The author
of that New York Times op -ed pointed out that
the mother of one of the shooters who happened
to be autistic said, you know, they were rumored
to have been diabetic or afflicted with male
pattern baldness, but no such explanations of
this behavior would have surfaced. They're not
gonna say, oh, he was bald, so he shot down a
school. Yeah, you don't hear about that. Just
jokingly, if you're an incel and you're balding
and you're mad, you might be more likely to shoot
down a school. than anyone on the spectrum. I'm
gonna try to make light of this. If we're gonna
play by their rules, that logic makes more sense.
Even that doesn't make sense. Gosh, people like,
sometimes they get so close to figuring out what
the problem is, but they miss it. so close yeah
so yeah another thing that came to mind relates
to what i was saying earlier about the shutdowns
i get irritable sometimes but so does everyone
so does everyone and it's also like It's not,
like, maybe being a little upset or maybe even,
I don't know, having a big display of emotion
or whatnot. It's not gonna lead me drained after
that, it's not. It's just - You're in the seat
of conviction watching your favorite television
show. Yeah, I'm not plotting, like, this major
thing or having, like, I'm not even having thoughts.
You're trying to exist, not cancel other existence.
Yeah, exactly. Seems like a lot of work, killing
people. when you're in a situation where you
just want to be in bed. Yeah, it's just such
a... It makes it so unlikely, which is our point.
Yeah. It's not the cause. Yeah. The ease with
which someone, even if they're on the spectrum
of having a meltdown, could go or have access
to a weapon in the United States. Not that they
would, let's say hypothetically. That is a huge
part of the problem. Yeah. And I think also this
culture where there's so many violent video games.
This was brought up to me or I read about it.
like from someone else but it made a lot of sense
to me like I hadn't realized originally but like
there's so many movies and video games that people
play that are like really violent be it exacerbates
it as well but of course being the access to
guns on top of that on top of the societal factors
that lead all these people to be in that state
on the point of the video game thing because
this is something that's been again, in the last
20 years has been something that people like
to debate. You do make a good point. However,
there are, again, also studies that show that
people who play violent video games when they're
upset are less likely, specifically men, to go
out and do it. So it's not so much the video
games themselves. It's the culture that informs
the video games. Yeah. That's toxic masculinity.
It's, if I have an emotion, I will do this. In
fact, a lot of video games Help people not do
your shit. Yeah, that's true. Like I can see
how it can be helpful to like release That energy.
Yeah, what you noticed correctly is that the
culture informing these video games and a lot
of these films for for a man with no other emotional
outlet or support system or education other than
girlfriends that they end up despising or you
know projecting onto etc certain type of man
they might play that video game they might watch
that film but the culture that informs those
sorts of things that they interact with it's
not that they're wrong it's that it upholds a
certain emotional standard which is very low
if that's their only way of learning how to interact
with people i'm not saying like they see us like
monkey see monkey do but if They're isolated.
They don't know much. They don't have other people
to talk to or feel they can talk to It becomes
kind of a monkey see monkey do kind of situation.
Yeah, I can see that happen. It's like you put
something in front of a video game and they know
nothing else and That's all they play. Of course,
they can be violent. Yeah, it's behavior learning
So what you're talking about is people who know
nothing else and they have no other reinforcing
factors Yeah, exactly exactly and that comes
down to a lot of men isolating themselves in
a culture of male isolation and incels, which
is sad. And I'd feel sadder for them if they
didn't hurt everyone around them. Yeah. While
being in a place, a lot of them of power or privilege
and deciding to do nothing with it. It's one
thing if you or anyone feels a certain way or
has a trauma or is in a place of privilege, but
doesn't have the means. or the skills or the
access to help. A lot of the people now do. And
yet they decide to keep doing this. They keep
deciding to hurt other people. They keep deciding
to project. They keep deciding despite the ever
expanding options. yeah that is inexcusable no
like i see that like how in my case i have some
privileges and i use those to empower people
and also educate people that need to be educated
on those things like i remember when i started
my podcast and i think it still is like those
are the two main goals i think it's funny because
and it's still both of these but like it started
out more as like educating neurotypicals on autism
and neurodiversity And then it became, I realized
it also became about making other neurodivergent
people feel more accepted and understood, but
really understanding themselves, even if the
system around them or the people around them
are failing to understand them, at least they
can understand themselves. And I realized that
because I started getting messages from people
from other neurodivergent people as I started
my podcast, I was like, people were like oh thank
you so much for your podcast like you make me
feel seen like i'm tired of masking all day at
my stupid job and i listened to your podcast
and it made me feel really good so then i was
just like that's what it's about like that's
that's what and i wish other people used their
like privileged or their like platforms to do
that as well sadly that's not the case but you
know i know i do and i know a lot of other people
do so i guess that's what we have to keep striving
for. And, to make this full circle, I love that
you became the story that you weren't typecasted
for. You found community, you created community.
You became your own typecast person. I did! Yeah.
You did! You made the story! I mean, I just wish
that... I don't know, I... because I know it's
not just about this person I wish that that's
what the idea were I wish like that's what people
would think of the quiet person as instead of
like oh they're shy they're quiet they're gonna
go be a shooter no how about they're shy they're
quiet they're gonna find their community they're
gonna find their passion they're gonna you know
yeah you becoming the character that you wish
you were typecast at yeah exactly exactly which
is great that is excellent And I highly recommend
that. We do claps. Thank you. Yes, thank you.
On that note, this was a great episode. Thank
you so much everyone for listening. Hopefully
you were able to get a lot of useful information
and there will be links down below as well. Thank
you X for joining me and always bringing like
the research and your insights as well, which
I always appreciate This is our first official
episode together as co -hosts of the Unpassing
Neuroclearness podcast. Yes, I had given everyone
I talked about this a little bit in like my previous
Solo episodes X and I are gonna like become co
-hosts. And so this is the first official episode
of that so there's a nice little historical milestone
i'm watching i am actually watching listeners
i'm very very happy and excited to join occasionally
it is still dino's our podcast but i will occasionally
come in and bother everyone so thanks for having
me your your host thanks for listening everyone
that's been following the podcast for all this
time