Hello, welcome to another episode of unpacking neural queerness.
Today I have another very special guest back home podcast,
Aushra also known as the autistic thrifter.
If you haven't checked out my episodes, my previous episodes with Aushra,
127 and 141, I highly recommend those episodes.
Aushra and I are good friends and she's also,
she runs autism support groups for autistic adults.
And of course she's also the creator of autistic thrifter on Instagram.
And without further ado, welcome back Aushra.
Thank you, thank you for having me, I'm excited to be on again.
Yes, I'm excited to have you on again as well.
And today Aushra and I are going to talk about the show Girls on HBO
and how we feel a lot of those characters might be neurodivergent coded
and like the connections we see.
And so yeah, Aushra actually has watched this show several times
and she actually got me into it when we started communicating a few months ago
and then I watched the whole thing and especially the second half.
I went through it in like, gosh, maybe a week or two.
I started moving really fast.
Anyways, so getting right into it, my first question for you Aushra is,
I remember you mentioning that the first time you watched the show it was with your mom.
And so tell us a little bit about how that was like the first time you watched it
and then also how the experience differed like each time you watched it after that.
Yeah, so the first time I watched Girls was actually when it was originally airing
which I don't know what year that was.
But it was definitely probably like, what do you think, do you know?
Maybe it was like 10 to 15 years ago?
I think it was 2012 roughly, yeah.
Okay.
So 12 years.
Yeah, so when it was originally airing is when I watched it with my mom.
I was probably a little bit young for that show, but I was also quite mature in a lot of ways.
So I guess my mom kind of didn't mind me watching it with her.
She also didn't exactly know what to expect because it was her first time seeing it of course too.
But yeah, we watched it together and I remember really liking it,
but also definitely being a little bit young to understand exactly what was happening.
And of course I couldn't really relate to what was happening in the show at that time.
But there was definitely something in me that really loved it even at that young age
because several years later I ended up going back and watching it again.
And I think that was, it was actually probably when I was in college.
So it was definitely quite a few years later, but when I was in college I went back and rewatched it.
And I think that's when I really fell in love with it.
Like my first introduction I liked it, but my next rewatch in college,
that's when I really really fell in love with the show.
And I think I watched it one time through and really loved it,
but I don't know that I watched it again at that point.
It was then several years later again after college that I watched it again.
So this is probably my third rewatch.
And that's when I really was like, okay, this might be my favorite show.
I was like, this is really like, and this was before I was diagnosed too.
So I think I really really at that time at my third rewatch,
that's when I started relating to Hannah's character a lot.
And I think probably before it, like in my first and second watch,
I probably was relating but not exactly putting the pieces together of like why it was really hitting home for me.
But in that third rewatch, I think that's when I started to make the connection of like,
oh, I think I'm really relating to Hannah's character.
And then I think another year or two went by and I then started watching it again.
And that is when I started watching it.
And to this point, like pretty much it never stopped watching it.
So I think that started in 2021 and it's 2024.
So I've been watching this show on repeat for years now.
And I think it's a mixture of like every time I've watched it,
it progressively just became more of a comfort thing.
But I also that that time when in 2021 when I started rewatching again,
I think that's when I started learning about autism as well.
And it was really specifically once I ended up self-diagnosing
that this became like a very, very strong comfort show
and also like a very important show for my diagnosis journey.
Because it's when I started really realizing like why I related to the character so much
and why the show was just like really, really important and pivotal for me in learning about myself.
Yeah, very cool. Very interesting how that happened.
And I can definitely see that happening, especially if like as you watched it again
and as you were discovering more about yourself.
Because I can relate to a similar experience with the show, The Big Bang Theory.
And it was like because it was...
I remember even doing a review on it.
I think it's episode 136 or something.
And it's tricky because there are a lot of things that were problematic about the way they treated Sheldon and everything.
And also like it's kind of a representation of like one specific flavor of autism, which is like the adult male level one autistic kind of scenario.
And it's like of course not all autistics are like that, but there were a lot of traits and like things, characteristics about Sheldon
that I resonated a lot with like his non-understanding of like social norms and constructs.
And having very strong special interests and you know like...
Things like sensory stuff, there were just like a lot of different things in there that I could see and relate to.
And yeah, on the topic of Hannah, what were like some of the first things like when you started making that association
or even like maybe even like before you realized that you were autistic?
What were some of the first things that popped up for you about Hannah?
Maybe even if you didn't know that it was autism yet, what were some of the things that you started noticing about her that you resonated a lot with?
I think probably the main thing that I noticed about Hannah and that I really loved about Hannah and still do love is the way, the honest way that she communicates with people.
I think it's one of the first episodes where it's like Hannah's...
Marnie's boyfriend reads Hannah's diary and like without permission and it's like a real invasion of privacy and stuff and then like ends up basically in like a really dramatic performance telling Marnie and everyone else that he read the diary
and he saw that Hannah had written some things about Marnie's relationship with him basically saying that like Marnie wasn't happy and like needed more and there was you know whatever.
But after that whole... there's like a whole big blow up and at the end of it Hannah asks Marnie like as a literary piece what did you think of it?
And the way that she kind of... I think a lot of people would interpret it as selfish but from my viewpoint I interpreted it as like she wasn't really seeing the emotional intensity of Marnie's experience
or what Marnie was going through and because of that she wasn't like appropriately showing up in the situation and was like more so concerned about how Marnie was interpreting like the literary aspects of the piece
because she was viewing it as like one of her essays and I had a lot of like I guess empathy for Hannah in that moment because it felt like it wasn't a purposeful dismissal of Marnie's feelings
and I was more so that Hannah genuinely like wasn't seeing why it would be inappropriate to ask that question at that time and I really related to that.
I think that's one of the first things I related to and more than anything else something that I really relate to with Hannah is the way that the outside world, the way that the audience sees her
because when I first started like I would write and read it about different ways that I was interpreting Hannah and the show and I would talk to people about it because it was like a big...
I don't know if I'd call it a special interest but like Girls the Show is just a huge part of my life so I talk about it a lot and I realized that people interpret Hannah as really selfish and like brash and harsh and very dismissive of people
which is so interesting because I never saw her that way like now that people have told me that you know I can be open to that viewing of her but I never ever initially saw her that way like I saw her as very honest to herself
and also I see her also as like a very good friend and a loyal person and I do think she can miss certain cues and can also like sometimes miss other people's experiences which I think is a part of cognitive empathy
I think she struggles with that which I also relate to but what I relate to so much is that the world sees her in a certain way that I don't see her
and I feel that way about myself often like the world could interpret me in a way that I completely didn't mean so I think that's the first thing that I really related to with Hannah
yeah I can definitely see how I can see that happening and I could see I also noticed like Hannah being like very honest and straightforward and even in a way like I could see how that would come across to neurotypicals
differently than it could come across to us like but I also relate a lot to like you know just being like thinking very like literally and also like legitimately like wanting to know something
and not really being aware of all like the social constructs but also like you know like you said with with cognitive empathy like knowing why the other person is upset or might be upset or me or like it why I shouldn't ask them this
like I've definitely felt that a lot before in my life too and and it's interesting you know because there is there is a disconnect with the neurotypicals where it gets interpreted and I'm sure like I feel like this is how Hannah's character was interpreted by a lot of people too
where we get interpreted as selfish or as to blunt or whatnot and or we get called we get told that we don't have empathy but it's it's more that we struggle with a certain kind of empathy like you said that we struggle with cognitive empathy
like knowing why someone is upset or but but we actually that we have a lot of emotional empathy like I've always felt that like a Sheldon I feel like not to go back too much into the other show
but I can see that relation to like being perceived that way and actually feeling things very intensely because he was also someone that you could tell like inside that he did have a lot of empathy like because he could tell something was off with someone
and I feel like Hannah was the same way but you've but it's like what is it and why and then I feel also like sometimes just by us wanting to know and then legitimate like when we and then we go to ask them why
and then just the act of wanting to know why and the way it comes across to others we get we get misinterpreted for it
so yeah and I definitely saw those those characteristics and in Hannah as well I saw how she was just kind of trying to to figure things out and trying to to understand and then you know like working on herself and trying to build this career and and I remember like the first
I think it was the very first scene of the show that her parents are cutting her off and and I like felt bad for her and I think like in this society that we live into today like there's this expectation that everyone is like that once you get into your early
age or like after college or whatever that you're like going to be completely independent and everything and it's just not possible for everyone I think even for neurotypicals nowadays it's really hard to like become self sufficient at such a young age
and I think for neurodivergent people especially undiagnosed neurodivergence which I feel like I would categorize Hannah as as an undiagnosed neurodivergent person I feel like it can be even harder because you're also trying to figure out like all these neurotypical norms and anyways I remember
that scene very well and then I remember like hearing these things about how people would call her character privileged or selfish and I remember that also bothered me a lot because I was like I don't see that at all I see someone that's trying to figure herself out figure out her relationships figure out the world and her career and be a writer
so yeah how did you respond to like those criticisms of like people calling her selfish and stuff I felt really bad because I think I connected on such a deep level with Hannah and then when I realized that people were viewing her in that way I was like so that means a lot of people probably see me this way
and it checks out because I've had so many situations like I've been called selfish and I've been called controlling and like all these different things and it sucks to like be inside of a body that like your mind or it just sucks to deal with these things internally and other people are not understanding why it's happening or what's going on
so there's not like any empathy or sympathy or understanding because people just don't seem to understand the root of why certain things happen or why it may come across as selfish but really it's like because of a different reason and it's like I think there's just a lack of understanding that leads to a lot of autistic people
and neurodivergent people just feeling very dismissed and very misunderstood a lot of times so yeah I had a definite I had a strong reaction to it and I think it made me relate even more to her and there's just so many moments in the show that I saw like glimpses of myself in Hannah I'm trying to think of more from the beginning
I think it's just I mean even like with how she's trying to be a writer like you said and she like gets cut off from her parents in such an abrupt way
and people then see it as like she's so privileged to be wanting her parents to pay for her and all this stuff when really like that was a really harsh cut off that her parents gave her and it's like you know like transitioning into having to find a job and she ends up doing it too like she ends up like finding different jobs and like making it work somehow and yeah I just I definitely relate to so many aspects of Hannah
and I feel really bad for the way that the world sees her but that's not to say like of course there's definitely like some problematic things she does you know like not like you can't excuse certain things
but overall just like as a character I think the world sees her in a very in a way that like fails to understand the depth of her experience
yeah do you think that do you think that Lena done him perhaps saw Hannah's character in a different way that that that she was perceived from from people that were watching the show
I don't know that's such a good question like I do wonder if she if she wrote the character like to be seen as selfish or or if like I don't know if in real life if she's narrowed evergant
yeah that's another question I was gonna get to is yeah if you think she might be I guess the first thing that came up to me is if you think Hannah might be an undiagnosed autistic and if they should have diagnosed her if they should have made that clear in the show
and then also like if maybe Lena done him is neuro divergent herself and was kind of using the show as a way to like tell her stories as well maybe
well I think it's possible I also think it's interesting that in the show Hannah does have OCD so and I don't know if that's based on real experience that Lena Dunham has like she has OCD I think it's possible though I think a lot of writers and just like a lot of people in media can use like stories or their art to tell their experience
so I mean I think it's very possible I also think that it's hard it's hard to so accurately write a neuro divergent character if you don't actually have that experience and I found it to be a very accurate depiction of like an undiagnosed autistic or neuro divergent person
and so that makes me believe that it's highly possible that she is neuro divergent in some way just because I think it would be hard to like get such an accurate depiction if not
yeah yeah I felt the same way like I felt like for it to be for it to resonate like this strongly with the undiagnosed or high masking neuro divergent experience it has to like she might maybe she is neuro divergent herself like maybe that maybe it was neuro divergent coded and
I felt the same way about the Big Bang Theory for a long time and I remember it was just something that I was like I had in the back of my head like but and I remember originally because my original diagnosis was Asperger's even though I do not like to use that term anymore
and I remember but that's all like the only term I knew at the time like when the Big Bang Theory was going on and I remember always like thinking about it like oh could Sheldon be like me does he would he also have like the same kind of diagnosis
and then I remember just randomly like googling it on the internet like Sheldon Cooper autistic or Asperger's or something and a bunch of stuff came up it was like oh my god like so much stuff came up and I was like oh wow okay so other people are like catching on to this too
and then years later I found out that one of the creators Bill Prady is in fact autistic and that Sheldon the Sheldon character was based a lot on him and so then that made me
I mean of course I had this whole debate like in my head on if they should have diagnosed him or made it clear in the show that he's autistic and then that's where I was thinking about girls too
and I think it is like it's tricky because I think on one hand it's important because it does destigmatize a little bit of like the idea that people have around what an autistic person, an autistic character is supposed to look like
but then on the other hand sometimes when they do when I see shows that do make someone autistic I feel like they write on it too much or they kind of blow it up too much
and they make it seem that the person that their only personality trait is being autistic and that's what drives me crazy about shows like the good doctor where they name him like autistic where the character is like autistic from the beginning
but an atypical too in a way but they don't I think even atypical is different but what really bothers me about the good doctor is that they never give him personality
and that show is like into the sixth season now and I stopped watching it a while ago because I got frustrated because it's like because they don't give him any personality so I think it would have maybe been cool if she were like
if it were clear that she was like struggling like but and that like she had these differences and that maybe it was because she was autistic but also maybe like without like it's tricky like to do that because then then it wouldn't
they wouldn't have wanted to make it too much about her being autistic but yeah I guess I was wondering like if you've ever thought about that like what would it be like if they if they had diagnosed her or if they if she had self diagnosed her like
like yeah like what what did you think about like maybe different ways that could have gone
yeah it's a good question because I think this comes up for so many different like shows or movies where it's like the character is very obviously neurodivergent or very obviously autistic and it's like we then kind of rely on the audience to pick that up because it's not explicitly stated anywhere
and I think that's okay but the thing that bothers me about that is it often feels like a missed opportunity because the people that are going to pick up on that are the people that are autistic or neurodivergent like other people,
like allistic people, neurotypical people they're not they're not going to pick up on that most likely because they don't relate to it in the same way that an autistic person is going to and I mean of course some of them might pick up on it if they're like really aware and educated on whatever it is
but like at large the general public is probably not it's going to be missed largely and that really bothers me because I think I think if there's like a delicate way that it can be known about the character without the character solely being about that
because I think like for example in girls if it was introduced similar to how the OCD thing was introduced I think it could have been good because with OCD like it only came up in a few episodes
but like we all know as the viewers because it's explicitly stated like we know she has OCD we know that she does have immense struggles and did in her past have immense struggles because of it but it's not something that is like the only thing we know about her
it's not the only character trait it's not the only personality trait that she has it's just a part of her character and we see it come up every now and again
so I think if it could have been like that where you know even if there's one episode where she's just like exploring it like she's doing Google searches with like autism and women and things like you know just so the audience is like oh huh
you know like she's looking that up I wonder and then like you know it just gets it so like more people are aware and thinking about it because the general public isn't going to know otherwise
exactly that's exactly what I was thinking about too and it relates to like how other autistic coded characters that I've seen have been perceived like by neurotypical is like okay it's like you said it's different like
with the way neurodivergent people see them is like oh wow like I relate a lot to that but then like the way neurotypical see them is they often get seen as weird and quirky and nerdy and strange and all these like negative things like we get bullied for a lot
and it would have like that's where I feel like if it were done in the right way where he like comes to find out that he was actually autistic or he's a high-masting autistic person I feel like in a way that really promotes acceptance too
I think it does I think that's huge for I think both neurodivergent and neurotypical people because for neurodivergent people like they're already picking up so strongly on it that it's just and then maybe it is like you said maybe it's someone
high-masking undiagnosed that doesn't even realize this about themselves and are trying to figure out why they're so different and it's like not only is it validation for them as a neurodivergent person is like oh my god this might actually be what what's up with me and why I'm different
and and and so like people can accept and understand themselves but I think like you said too it's so important for the neurotypicals to see that because they're not already that's like they're not already they're not automatically going to make that connection
like they're they're gonna just label him as we are her as weird and quirky or whatnot but then I feel like with that revelation oh they're they're a high-masking autistic it like it expands their understanding of autism and masking and everything but it also it really I feel like it helps promote acceptance
because then like it's very likely like a lot of those people watching like that they have an autistic classmate or they have an autistic coworker and I feel like if they were to watch a show like that and then it becomes revealed like oh my gosh this person is actually a high-masking autistic person and this is how they see the world and how they process information
and then they'll remember they'll be like oh this guy reminds me of Boris from work this guy reminds me of Sam from school this guy reminds me of Julia from from school so and then be like oh wow so that's why Julia is like that's why Julia does this or that's why Julia does that like oh maybe
I think I understand Julia a little better now I think I don't see her as weird so much anymore so like I feel like that's where it can really help neurotypicals understand more about neurodivergence as well
right exactly and I think so many people make the argument against that of like oh well you know art and shows and movies they're meant to be interpreted by the viewer in all different ways like there's so many ways we can interpret it
but it's like some things aren't interpretation like some things are facts and it's like factually those are neurodivergent rates and so if we name that it would go to such great lengths of like promoting awareness and acceptance and like triggering the thought like you said in so many people that would not have put it together otherwise
so it's like to me like yeah you can make the argument of interpretation but also let's just like be honest about facts and about like purposefully and like quite literally using neurodivergent traits to build a character like I think that should be credited and whether that's like
in interviews of just talking about character development or made explicit in the show somehow like I think that should be credited because we're at a point where there isn't the level of awareness and acceptance that we need and so like once we're there sure like you can not be obvious about it
but like before because we're still on the journey of helping to educate people and like the general public needs to be more aware I think it feels just like not good to have the trade to use for entertainment purposes without giving credit at all you know
and I don't see that and obviously like I don't feel that way about girls because also like this was years ago that it was written and everything but now in more current stuff like with the movie poor things this just really grinds my gears it really gets me going because I'm like come on like it's so obvious just say it somewhere say it
exactly and they don't even have to like mention it a lot like they could even just mention it once or twice and it would have a huge impact on like really making people reflect
but I feel like yeah like it's either we don't see it mentioned enough or we don't see it meant or we see it mentioned or we see they make the whole story about like their stigmatized idea like when it's neurotypical shows like I feel like because I have a strong
inclining that Lena Dunham is neurodiverging I feel like of course it wouldn't happen with girls like they would it wouldn't be a stigmatized portrayal but I see a lot of neurotypical run or rush produced shows that end up just just showing all the stigmas and stereotypes of neurodivergence
exactly yeah there's like no middle ground it's either like this is the most autistic person you're ever going to see or we're just going to use all the autistic traits and not say anything about it ever and just not everyone think they're just weird and quirky and whatever
exactly which is such a shame yeah because yeah yeah um anyways the next question that I had for you is what do you think of the Shoshona character and like how also like as the seasons evolved like what were some more things you you noticed about Hannah
and maybe about Shoshona too that that maybe started giving you more suspicions about like neurodiversity I think Shoshona is definitely neurodivergent also and that also leads me to believe that Lena Dunham is because like it's kind of like all these characters have neurodivergent qualities some more than others but Shoshona definitely as well so I mean there's so many things about her like her
her cadence her gait um she she can be very naive about things um and I I really like the way that her character grows throughout the show too because we start out with her just being like very much like a follower in the group like she's kind of very she like really idolizes her
her cousin Jessa and all the other girls and she feels really behind them and wants to catch up really badly and at the end of the show we see that she kind of chooses to like go her own way and split off from the group a little bit and I like that development because it shows that she like kind of comes into her own person throughout the show
um and I like that a lot I like that she she gets to know herself more and decides to loosen her ties with them because she actually sees me and that maybe they didn't understand her or accept her the way that she deserved to be understood and accepted which I relate to also with a lot of relationships that I've had
um but Shashana definitely like there's one episode where um I think it's when they it was after Adams like big role in the play and they go to the hotel and they're like having an after party for him to congratulate him and Jessa and the guy from the rehab that she was at
they're they're talking to Shashana and the guy is like where did you get the cocaine that you're on and she's on is like oh I just always talk this fast like I'm always this excited
that's right I just love that part since like uh sometimes it reminded me of like when I'm really excited about something or like talking about a special interest really fast and excitedly about it yeah yeah I love Shashana yeah me too yeah and I could definitely see like the special
interest thing like like I get like that when I I talk about my special interest too and then even just like having ADHD as well and then being like getting in these spurts where I get really hyperactive um and and and it does relate to like like the fact that
the guy asked if he was on cocaine or something like how people how outsiders perceive it a lot of times like me being really hyper focused on something or really interested in or something on something or talking really fast um so yeah that's another good point of like
a classic neurodivergent experience um and yeah like I think about it now like I think it would have been even though it would have been like cool if they could have incorporated like if they could have
shown like oh like this is high masking neurodivergence but I wonder in a way I think it's still it would help even if they don't realize initially that it's high masking neurodivergence it might help a lot of neurodivergent people relate like you were saying earlier
like they just they see like the hyperactivity or the talking about special interest or being perceived as being high or whatnot um and they could relate to that experience and being like oh and I think even just that alone could help them already in some way of being like oh I'm not alone in these experiences
like I'm not the like this is something that other people can experience too and like oh my god like this character relates um because yeah like I I'm reflecting more now like even before like I started seeing certain TV characters as neurodivergent or neurodivergent coded
I was there is that that that powerful thing that happens where you're able to relate really strongly to to a character's experiences and kind of see it mirrored on yourself right yeah absolutely and I think about also like um when I was younger like when I was first watching girls for the first time when it was
erring like I just think about if if there was some mention of autism and like being highly masked and if she was looking it up or if there was any exploration of that I wonder then if it would have triggered me to start looking into it
um and maybe like I would have known you know 15 or 10 years earlier which who knows how that could have changed my life so yeah just it it could be so powerful to just be honest about that and like let people know what they're watching
yeah exactly like that's what I was thinking too like because even if and I think about this also like in in the in terms of like had I got the bigger question of like had I got my diagnosis had I gotten my diagnosis sooner like if I found out that I was autistic when I was like
8 instead of 16 um would it have been like even though I have questions of like how how I would have been treated by society because what I feel like is a lot of people
like if you're undiagnosed you're just like because your mask is good enough people think that people discredit that you're struggling but then I feel like also like I've read from people that that get diagnosed early and that have the diagnosis but then it's a different kind of ableism where people just kind of look down on you or discredit you or infantilize you or don't take you seriously
um and that can happen to people also after they disclose but I think what the difference the difference then it would have had is I would have been more understanding and accepting of myself like for you to probably like it could have had that impact
um yeah so like even even it's because then I realized like even just for ourselves it's it it can be so powerful so so even if society weren't more accepting of me for for having the diagnosis I think what what's really powerful is that
when once we get the diagnosis where we're so much more accepting and understanding and patient and compassionate towards ourselves exactly like there's so many things that happened throughout my life that I that were strictly due to me trying to understand myself or due to me trying to push myself
because I didn't understand what was going on and like hating myself for it like most of my issues came from self hatred like most of the terrible things that I went through stemmed from me putting myself in those situations purposefully because I was mad at myself so it's like if if I had that understanding if I just knew what it was
you know like I I think it could have changed so many things and prevented a lot of like negative situations that I was in definitely yeah same same for me um I I wanted to ask you a little bit I guess since since we were we were on the topic of characters
um what did you think of the Adam character because I also felt like Adam could be potentially like a diagnosed autistic too yeah I love him I think Adam might be my favorite character honestly because I think he's really funny and like very very very interesting
um like just an interesting person and a very drawn to him for that reason and I think that's also why Adam and Hannah get along so well is because I think they really understand each other in a way that most other people don't yeah
just like in in the episodes where they start officially dating and Adam is like staying over at Hannah and Marnie's often Marnie is like talking about I think in one episode Marnie is talking to Jessa about Adam and saying how weird she thinks he is
and how just like totally weird and odd and then it's like Hannah on the other hand sees him as so just like mesmerizing and so interesting and amazing for all of the same reasons that Marnie finds him weird
and I love that I like I like Hannah's way of seeing him um I think Adam yeah I mean he's definitely like a very unique character and I think he also has a lot of neurodivergent traits
um I also think something that also strikes me as neurodivergent coded is the way that he talks about work and not fitting into like traditional structures of work in society and he and Hannah connect on that when she gets fired or when she quits her writing job or not her writing job her like office job
yeah and I like that too I relate to that because like typical typical nine to five like selling your soul to jobs that you don't really care that much about like totally doesn't work for me like I can't I can't imagine how it works for anyone like I don't know how people do it
I don't know but I really relate to Adam on that yeah yeah me too like I also have a really hard time with like typical like job and office structures like I've worked in an office with a neuro typical person before and it's it there is a lot of like
miscommunication and just like little things like you don't even
not even like
it's just like it feels like every little interaction like every
like they just a neurotypical just have a very different way of doing things and that it's not even just that but it's like the hidden meanings hidden expectations and then like what I hear a lot from people what I also feel like is very unfair is like the
the office culture like I was lucky that I never worked in like a really big office but like I know like there's so many offices out there that
they have like these parties and like events or whatever like and it's really like they force you to like mingle with everyone else but like it's a very neurotypical biased kind of thing so people like
like it's a lot of small talk and it's like a lot of stuff that can be really stressful and overwhelming for for neurodivergent people and then so many times like neurodivergent people end up being forced to participate in these things
even even when it's like non mandatory it's always like there's this pressure you know and then like you get like the side eye or whatever if you don't go which feels mandatory and something that I was remembering now is that you were talking about like
neurotypical like yeah like how it's really hard to wrap our heads around the ideas that like there are people that that really that like that environment or that thrive in there that environment or that
and I also think that it's like because people because like autistic people are more likely to question things and and like think about does this make sense like what's this
this whole dynamic why is it like this like why does that happen why do we have to do these like little party things like I think there's a lot of questioning that we have because we we see the world and
in in a different way in such in detail in such detail sometimes and I feel like we're able to pick apart a lot of these things and I remember hearing something recently about how neurotypicals
they just go they don't question these norms as much and they just go with it and and that is is definitely something that I've been that's been like hitting really strongly for me is that I've been noticing like oh yeah like
sometimes like there are neurotypicals that like they might not like it either but then like they project it on us so much because they just go with them like they think
because they think that they can't question things or that it's taboo like all is this whole thing about like it being so taboo to question things but then it's like they get angry at us for question and I think now I'm really having a revelation is not like
I think they get angry at us a lot of times because we question the things out loud that they had maybe thought about before and like and like we're pointing it out and I guess there's like such this taboo about pointing things out so I feel like
like that's how we get a lot of criticism too.
Definitely I remember even as a kid being told that I asked a lot of questions and like and this was both like in my family but also in school like a lot of people would point out to me or like kind of make fun of the questions that I asked because to them I was asking like silly questions because it didn't the answer I guess didn't matter or like
like it was like an assumed thing or things like that that I didn't get or didn't make sense to me and so like being made fun of for asking those questions because apparently like you know there's just like assumed answers a lot of times or like there's
there's just expectations that you're supposed to understand certain things when really like there's no reason or just little things like even even norms when I was younger like how there's certain things you're not supposed to ask people or there's like certain gestures you're not supposed to make or like
politeness things like social niceties those things didn't really make sense to me until I'd ask that about them and often people wouldn't have an answer and that would upset them because even themselves didn't know why they were doing it.
Exactly exactly because they never questioned it themselves and I and so maybe they feel like like we're quite like we're like asking the questions that they never asked and we're like uncovering it's like this whole
it makes me think of like taking a blanket off of something like there's something that neurotypical society keeps covered like oh like we shall never talk about this and and then like people like get get uncomfortable and they're like not sure
but why and this or that but they never they feel like they never can do it they never can talk about it and someone finally just comments and like puts the takes the blanket off and like oh let's talk about this and I think it's because like they never felt
allowed to talk about so it like really like it takes them aback when they're like following these little rules like so meticulously and someone finally comes maybe maybe it even causes them to be frustrated at themselves to like oh well I never
question that or and then this person comes and questions it and now I'm questioning it like I think about that a lot about like this this discomfort that neurotypicals end up developing around us calling stuff for what it is and it makes me think of how many people
might might have thought the same things but just like never voice them and repress them and and felt that it was wrong and and I feel like there's still a lot of neurodivergent people out there
with internalized ableism that have never questioned it and it's reminding me of not to get too much off topic but of one of the groups that you had recently and that there was one member that he was autistic himself but he had been in neuro typical environments for so long and he had been accustomed
to reading neuro typical body language and like using your typical methods of communication that he came to understand that as the the correct way of communicating or what not even though there's no real correct correct way and I remember just how taken
aback he was in the first meeting that he joined from our series last month that he was he like couldn't understand like he couldn't read anyone because he was trying to use all these neuro typical cues that he had learned and then I just remember like at the end even the next meeting
but particularly also at the end of that series how like how moved he was that he had just figured out that we just have a different like autistics in general like and like in that everyone in that group like we just had a different way of communicating
like he had been so it had been so ingrained in him to like to look for like neuro typical like non verbal signals and that and that he was put off by like we weren't giving that but what we and I remember I remember the specific thing that he said like you guys just say stuff
and and I was just like yeah because I was just like that's what it is it's like we just say things we just call things for what they are and we just like open up and share our experiences and I just remember like I remember witnessing how impacted he was by that and I
I feel like that's also like what makes it so one of the things that makes it so important to have that representation of like what it is like to be a high masking autistic and like questioning these these contracts and stuff because then people that are even neuro divergent themselves that have always been conditioned to think the neuro typical
way is correct they can finally like it opens their eyes to yeah yeah definitely and that's something I really love about the autistic experience that I've had and like that is a big part of support groups is like being able to really
lead into like a lot of the communication styles that autistic people can have that often are like pushed aside or not welcomed in more neurotypical spaces I really love that I love like the very honest way that autistic people can communicate with each other it's very refreshing
yeah me too because it is just like it's always felt to me that it's just like it's just you know like no bullshit it's like just lay it out on the table just say what it is and
there's so much I just one thing I found is that there's a lot of fluff you know yeah yeah it's all fluff it's like neurotypical conversations like small talk like stuff like that it's like and then like we're like trying to like
talk about things with like just by kind of like circling around them but never saying what you really feel and then also I feel like when when neurotypicals are making judgment about something they're like they don't like something or they have a certain reaction or they have a certain
opinion and they'll just because I have neurotypical friends that do this and it's so obvious to me now but it's like and they the other thing is they think that they're not they don't realize that they're being obvious and I don't think it's because I
think it might be because autistic people can pick up on that more more perhaps but like yeah so I think you're right I think a lot of autistic people can pick up on authenticity easier yeah exactly exactly and
and it's just so prevalent like this whole like because I have one neurotypical friend particularly that I'm remembering now that like she doesn't like something or she has an opinion about something and she'll just like make like this so make these faces
but not and it's just like like you can tell that she's judging the whatever it is that's going on and it's just like oh okay because like this actually happened in the I have like and we do like this acting workshop like we call it the alumni
studio every Wednesday at the school I went to and the this person my friend who's neurotypical was working with another she's working with two other people and in the scene and basically it's like her and this other lady who also happens to be
neurotypical are in a living in a house and they're welcome there like recruiting someone to live with them to be their roommate and and so okay so this scene specifically like the this new person had just moved in and was like they had gone out to a party
and they were like smoking and snacking on the couch or something like that and my friend's character Jessica like just comes in and is like like you can tell like she's being so judgmental and stuff and and the other character who was played by my
name who actually happens to be neurodivergent although I don't know if her character is supposed to be but I know that she is and she was just I remember her asking directly like at least a couple times like oh do you mind or is there something wrong or you know like
and I feel like so many times like I've done that just kind of trying to check in because you notice that this person is uncomfortable like I could see that the character that was played by my neurotypical friend was very uncomfortable and but like she just kept making these faces and stuff and then the person would ask like oh is there something wrong or blah blah blah
and then she'd be like oh no um it's just um no yeah but I'm just like oh come on you know like you're obviously you're obviously judging you obviously have a problem but you're just like playing it off and you're just like I don't know it was just so obvious to me and then it's like after the scenes
um like we'll break it down like we um usually people ask like people that were watching for feet we'll give like a little feedback or whatnot and I just remember like mentioning like oh I could tell that Jessica was really her character was Jessica and I was like oh I could tell that Jessica was you know really
um not into what was going on and that she was like quietly judging and I just remember my friend like when I told her that like she seemed like very surprised she was like oh like she even like a little bit ashamed or something maybe like but it just gave me this like
it gave me this vibe that it was like oh like she thought that she was actually she was surprised that I had picked up on that like she thought that she was doing a good job of hiding it and I was
that's so interesting yeah yeah it really is I I definitely I can understand that too it's like and it's something that in the mindfulness class I was taking with a professor theorized that autistic people in some cases are more sensitive to like certain body cues and like certain like face reading
and facial expressions especially like I find it especially with people that I know because with people that I know well I can detect such minor changes in their face or their voice and and it's it's like very impacting to me and very like annoying
setting if I can tell something's wrong and the person is like oh like how you said like oh no exactly yeah exactly like oh no like I'm like come on come on it's so obvious come on
like oh my gosh like yeah cuz I've had that even like with my sister like she'll be oh my gosh she'll be upset about something and I can just tell and then show it'll happen sometimes where she'll deny it like she'll still try to deny it
and this has happened before where she denies it and then like 30 minutes later she'll be like yeah I was upset about that and this or that and I'm like okay I knew it
yeah all the time yeah I wanted to I think I have a couple more questions about like mainly about the the end of the show and like like when in the last season I guess yeah okay spoiler warnings
everybody listening if you haven't finished the show and you don't want to know what happens don't listen to this part but I was wondering what you thought
about like when Hannah gets well when Hannah's dad comes out as being gay and like the fact that who was it um Elijah I think had noticed that like in the very beginning of the show when
Elijah came out as or no like I think Hannah already knew that he was gay right that Elijah was gay in the beginning yeah I think so I think there's um there's the scene of them meeting oh it's because Hannah yeah this is definitely spoiler first if anyone hasn't seen her but
Hannah gets HPV and so she meets up with Elijah to be like she's kind of accusatory she's like well I haven't slept with anyone else really and the only other person I have slept with says that they don't have HPV so it must be from you
and then it kind of comes out because Elijah believes that they're meeting up because he thinks that Hannah knows that he's been dating a guy but really she wanted to talk about the HPV thing so then he kind of tells Hannah like yeah it's true I've been dating a guy
and then Hannah's like oh and she didn't realize and then she's kind of like she gets upset because she's like oh well then if you're gay then how did you date me and then he says well there's a handsomeness to you and then she gets very offended by that and she starts crying
I do remember that now that's right yeah he does in that scene he brings up um that he's like well maybe you should take a look at your dad or something like that
yeah that's right because that's the one part that I really it like stuck with me like that he makes that I feel like he said something like like he always thought like I always thought your dad I can't remember exactly what he said like or maybe it was like you should look into your dad
um and then Hannah ends up being like oh oh he brings up that Hannah's dad has like an ear piercing or something and then Hannah's like well he got that on a trip with all of his male friends and then Elijah's like okay
yeah yeah because I do remember like their being that like where Elijah's like yeah and you know you're he's basically like yeah you know your dad's gay right
and then Hannah gets super offended and she's like no my dad like what do you mean
and then and then it's funny because we don't like that doesn't get touched on again for like several seasons like most of the show and then it comes up if I'm not mistaken at the beginning gosh I can't remember if it was the fifth season or the sixth season
but it was like one of the last couples it was either like the fifth or the sixth I'm almost sure and um yeah then it comes up where her dad comes out I guess I think he comes out to her mom
yeah because they were like having I remember something like they were having they were starting to have more arguments and stuff and kind of like in a rough patch or like they were just like not connect like you could tell their marriage was was um kind of struggling
and and then he comes out to her mom and then her mom tells Hannah and then like they're all like processing that and what that looks like and then her dad comes to visit her in New York and like starts going out with this guy
but then like Hannah was like talking to him and then he's like I think I remember it's like something like she's asking him like so when are you guys gonna gonna split up or something like that and she's like and then he's like oh we're we're actually gonna try to make it work
so yeah like what did you think about like that whole dynamic and how they brought that in and like how her dad and her mom were like gonna make it gonna try to make it work for a while and how her mom gets really angry but then it feels like kind of starts accepting the situation a little more and they decide to go their own ways and yeah how did you feel about all that
I thought it was something that struck me was um when I think they were like they were doing like marriage counseling and then right after the session ends the dad ends up telling the mom that he's gay and she immediately is like she immediately makes it about her and is like saying that he's doing it on purpose to get out of the marriage
which I found so interesting because I tried to put myself in that perspective of like if I was married to someone and then they told me they're gay
I feel like I would never think of it as like they're trying to use it as an excuse I would instead be like like I mean obviously I'd probably be surprised but I wouldn't like throw it at them as like oh you're making an excuse to get out of the marriage um but I thought that was interesting I also
I thought it was funny when um when he comes to visit and him and Eliza like go shopping and then they're like saying that he looks like a daddy and Han is like okay you guys can't say that like I'm proud of you and I want you to like lean into your gay experience but like you're actually my daddy so I don't want other people to be called
yeah that was funny um yeah Han is a lot of like kind of like problematic things but kind of funny things like sometimes um there's something else he says that was weird but I can't remember what it was um but yeah I thought it was a fun exploration
throughout the show of like him you know coming out later in life and like exploring it and like he ends up getting into a really good relationship where like Han ends up being you know like she has a relationship with her dad's boyfriend and stuff which I think is fun and I think it's also fun when
when he meets up with the guy off of I think they connected on Facebook and he like ends up forgetting his wallet at the guys apartment and Han and get it and it's funny and he he's like uh his job is that he sells boots and Han is like interested in that cause she wants to get a pair of boots
the whole thing is pretty funny to me I like yeah I like how they did that too yeah um and yeah something that came up for me now was like with this whole like how Han as mom was initially kind of gate keeping her dad and you know trying to like saying that he was gay
and saying that he was doing it to get out of the marriage or like an excuse you know like and that just resonated like it reminded me of what we get told what autistic people get told when we come out to neurotypicals
totally that and I wonder if maybe there was like maybe there was an intentional connection there that that didn't get voiced but like back to like the the neurodivergent coding or like parts that might have been neurodivergent coded like that part
even just like when you were describing it like how her mom accuses her dad of like using his gayness as an excuse or whatever like that it just hit me so hard I was like wow because that's exactly what we get told as autistics when we're like
and it's possible that that connection hadn't even been thought of that it's just something that kind of happened but it was like I was like oh wow like that that makes a lot of sense because people they it's kind of like they don't want to see it too because and I feel like that's also how it relates like
her mom was kind of in denial like she didn't want to see the fact that her husband was gay so like and I feel like that's a lot of like society like they don't want to see that these disabilities and differences are a lot more common than they think
and I think it forces them to look a little bit within like themselves but also at like how they've interacted with people that could be autistic or how they've seen that and that it is like something that's that's out there and that is like
so still so so under diagnosed but like when people come out that we still have that that resistance like from people not wanting to believe us because they don't want to admit to themselves that they were wrong about this for so long like I see that a lot like with all sorts of stuff like I think that's a huge part of like the resistance that we get when we come out as autistic is because people don't want to believe us
is because people don't want to recognize that they were wrong about autism or that they were wrong about how they treated us or that they were wrong that you know these struggles and needs are valid and that we need support for them
and I feel like it opens it forces them to open a box that they're not always comfortable opening and they have to confront it yeah
so I have one I know that we're like over an hour already and I do have if you have time I have one more question about another spoiler alert by the way for everybody but what you thought about
Hannah's pregnancy and I think the ending of the show and like how they close that that out like what were your thoughts of it like was it were you surprised by it did you kind of expected and and also what you thought like thinking in retrospect
well I was really surprised totally wasn't expecting it and my immediate reaction was that I actually didn't like it I didn't like the pregnancy at the end I felt like it was I honestly felt like it was too dramatic of an ending like I and I think it's also for reasons of like
I get really sad when things end and when things change and I really I felt really really like triggered by such an extreme change in the setup of the show like how she ends up moving and everything and like isn't near the friends anymore
Marnie goes with her but like the whole thing was just such a big change and I think I wanted it to end with everything being the same like I wanted her to still be working on her writing and I wanted it to stay the same because that just felt comfortable to me
and I don't know I guess I just it felt a little out of place like the whole pregnancy thing like it felt very I don't know it kind of confused me I wasn't expecting it and I didn't love it like that's the only thing about girls in the entirety of the show the only thing
that always gets me is that I I'm not sure that I really like how it ended like I think I wanted it to be a less dramatic thing like I wanted it to just be that like yeah she just kept going on her journey and like kept doing her writing and and we don't not even necessarily like that we know what ends up happening
maybe that's it too maybe I didn't want to know like yeah yeah it felt like a little bit I think for me to like it was um very sudden and that we're just like this major event just kind of like gets thrown in there and especially like it being like right as the show is ending
and then we're kind of like left it felt a little bit like a cliffhanger maybe like we're like I felt like oh I really want to know now like what happens like with like Hannah like because it ends up being like Hannah moves into that moves in with her mom and then Marnie moves in with them as well and it's kind of like
it just yeah it was like definitely not what I expected and it was also like it feels like it felt like there's more like I wonder like I think there was a part of me that was like wishing they had explored more of like the
the relationship like with the dad and like how like does he end up coming back and being involved in some way or does he just I also felt like it was very like he's just like oh okay cool so you don't need anything so so bye and I don't know if like because I think even if
like I don't know even if I didn't if I were in that situation like I really didn't want to or expect a kid in that moment I don't know if I would have been able to truthfully just disregarded and forget about it like I think at least for me it would have been something that would have been
definitely pressing on my head like wow like I I have a son like I yeah I don't know it definitely like surprised me like because I felt like everything else was like so well connected in the show like you could see how one thing led to another and it was just like this building like succession
and then I feel like the pregnancy thing was kind of just like you know yeah I felt like it was a little bit of like a reach like that they wanted to be this like big thing that happened at the end and it felt unnecessary to me like I didn't I didn't think it needed to go in that direction like
I felt like it could have just been like a way more just like clean ending I guess like like it didn't need to be all of that like it went into them like Marnie was helping out with raising baby and like going to doctor and stuff and kind of gets this new you know she ends up like working as a
professor I think at college and I don't know if it yeah it felt unnecessary like I think it stayed where it was yeah exactly and I felt like in a way it just made me like
it felt abrupt like it made the ending feel very abrupt it made me long for like wanting more whereas it's interesting like because if they had ended it in a different way and not done the whole pregnancy thing like I feel like there was it definitely could have been
like I feel like a lot of shows like where your like your sad it ended in everything but but it feels right or it feels like things are kind of going on the path that you expected them to
but and you can kind of picture what happens I guess that's another thing is like especially for autistic brains like like ours like we are at least for me like I feel like I
have this like if I can project an idea in my head like I have an idea of like okay this is probably like probably what happens after this like I can kind of close it out in my head smoothly and then this it made it really hard with like just getting these
getting these two big like pieces of like story like oh my god these major things like this major thing happening with their pregnancy and then the baby and then and it left it left me like and maybe I don't know if this was the intention but it
I feel like it left me more starved for a continuation it was like definitely a cliffhanger kind of feeling I totally agree like it wasn't it wasn't a satisfying ending like I remember at the end being like come on like I didn't want it to end like that yeah
only part of the show that really disappointed me I just I felt like it was like if they avoided that whole thing it could have just ended with like a closure where like it doesn't have to like not all the loose ends have to be tied and I think like that's the beauty of
it ending and then it continues in any way that we interpreted but with this it was like almost honestly a little bit too specific because it's like oh okay so she just like we know everything like we know that she's like has this baby and she's just going to raise this baby now like if we avoided all that it could have been that it went anywhere
that we just know like Hannah as a character and like we can kind of think about where it goes like if she just ended up staying in New York City and just kept on writing and whatever like then we can make it anything but this almost felt like pigeonhole to me where it was like oh so she's just a mom now
and like we don't really know what what happens but we know that she has this baby and she like lives in this secluded area where like I don't know it just it felt weird to me that they ended it that way it felt really unexpected in like a way that didn't align with the rest of the show
yeah exactly definitely yeah well those are all the questions I had for you but I just wanted to thank you again for for coming on and this was really great really fun chat about the show and like all the neurodive you know possible like neurodivergent coding that we see in there and like the
you know the connection with like our high masking autistic experiences and and Hannah's character Shoshona's character Adam's character I really enjoyed discussing all of it with you
yeah me too thanks for having me on it was really fun and really fun to be able to talk with another autistic person about the show because I haven't been able to like go in depth with anyone else besides like you know some of the people in my life who are not autistic so it was fun to get another autistic person's perspective on it
nice yeah yeah well thank you once again and thank you everyone for listening I hope you enjoyed this episode I hope we didn't spoil things too much for you and thanks for listening as always and I'll see you guys next time