Hello, welcome to another episode of unpacking neuro queerness
This is your host George Munez guns today. I have a very special guest on the podcast
Livia Sarah from the live label free podcast
Welcome, Livia
Thank you so much for having me George very excited to be here. Thank you for coming on
I have many questions for you today about your
You in general your podcast and then also your
Your your new book that just came out
a rainbow girl, yes, and I had my
Head I got a little stuck a little bit. I
I so the first question I wanted to ask you is
Tell us a little bit about yourself your journey with battling and eating
Battling and eating disorder and how you came to realize that you're autistic
Yeah getting straight into it. Well, I always have such a hard time
Which is it's usually the first question to come but I feel like oh my gosh
I could literally even start because it's like my whole life which of course I wrote an entire book about
So if I am going on a rambling on for too long
Which us autistic people tend to be good at you can just say stop right there and guide me
Um, but yeah, I like to just start at the beginning, you know when I when I was growing up because I think every
Autistic person, you know diagnosed or not can resonate with this feeling of like there's something about me that is different
There's something about me. I don't fit in
Why like why am I weird quote quote quote weird, you know, why are my interests so different?
Um, why am I asking questions that no one else is asking? Um, and
This is kind of something that I've been talking a lot about with with my clients lately
In with that is, you know how when you're an autistic person
I feel like we see straight through the bullshit of society in a sense like
Society at large is just it's all about
Conforming and being a cog in a wheel. That's what you know, it means to be living in society
But I think as autistic people were like what like we can't conform. We can't be part of this like everyone is like
blind to their own blindness basically and obviously not referring to like actual blindness
Um, but it's just from such young age. I just realized like I
Just saw through things and I was like wow
Like I think that's why we can't engage in small talk because it's so meaningless and purposeless to us and for me
Everything always had to have a purpose like there had to be some sort of meaning at the end of everything I did
Um
And so yeah, so in a sense growing up. I was just like, okay, I'm different
I had barely any friends because all of the other girls my age, um
Because yeah, we're just talking about dolls and makeup and gossiping and obviously
This is so so much bullshit
Like why can't we talk about why we exist and you know the infinite universe?
Like that's what I wanted to talk about like existential stuff, you know
And so I quickly learned like the only people that I can actually talk to are like adults. Um
And I remember, you know, just always wow. She's so mature. She's so wise beyond her years
How old is she and my mom and dad would be like the proud parents?
But at the same time like this is awkward. Like why is our kid like this?
And I was also just very perfectionistic and I think you know, that's kind of what
Started out as like my masking journey. I guess it's just trying to find meaning and purpose and validation in external
circumstances, you know
Excelling at my sports, um, and only being satisfied if you know, I got straight A's on was the best student
I was the t2's pet
Even though school was very difficult for me. I felt like well if I can like prove to other people how
Perfect I am. Well, then maybe they'll think I'm a little less weird. Um
So yeah, that was kind of just my childhood growing up with so much anxiety and so much stress because everything had to be perfect
I could not make a misstep and at the time I think when you're a kid, you don't even realize what you're doing
You're just doing it. It's just like an adaptive process
You're just doing it. It's just like an adaptation to to your environment
But now being older and like looking back at my entire life
Knowing I'm autistic because I only knew I was autistic when I was 20
I'm like, wow, all of those behaviors were all adaptations to feel safe in a society
That you know made me feel really unsafe
So anyways going off the perfectionism and the obsessiveness and like seeking external validation
an eating disorder was
Practically landed in my lap when I was around 11 years old
Because that's when we started learning about health and nutrition in school and because I was you know, the perfect student
I was like I'm going to become the epitome of a perfect healthy eater
And then my literal thinking style
Just took all of the quote-unquote health recommendations
Very literally. I truly believed, you know, if I eat sugar, I'm going to develop diabetes
And we can talk about sugar in a second
And you know if I eat quote-unquote unhealthy I'm gonna like develop quote-unquote obesity
I'm gonna get like heart attack because that's what happened
You know if you eat junk food blotty blotty blah
Everything that you know diet culture conditions us to believe and it's all of course
Craying on our fear and our creying on our insecurities in a way
Because there's nothing wrong with eating junk food once in a while
I mean I eat something unhealthy every day, but I've never been this healthy in my entire life, right?
it's even though it's so cliche, you know, it is about the moderation because
Yeah, if you're gonna be eating frickin cinnamon buns all day every day probably not too healthy
but if you obsessed with eating broccoli and
Steamed rice and you know grilled chicken and that's all you eat and you're afraid of eating anything else. That's not healthy either
It's really about that middle ground and I think especially
For autistic people with the executive functioning difficulties that come with that. I am now someone
Who you know?
I eat a lot of processed food like most of my dinners are frickin frozen meals because I do not want to be bothered to cook
Because I'm spending my whole day, you know writing and just navigating all the stimulus that never stops
honestly, um, like I said, I've never been this healthy in my entire life because I'm finally
Investing my energy in places that that lights me up and fills my soul. Um, cuz I think you know one of those
Common phrases you're like I just want to be happy. I don't think anyone wants to be happy
I think we want to feel fulfilled. We want to have meaning and we want to have purpose doesn't it doesn't not sound about happiness
But anyways, that's a side tangent going back to the story. I yeah, so I just
Nutrition and the health and and dieting it just became almost a special interest of mine
And that quickly spiraled into just a full-blown eating disorder within a year
I was in the hospital because my heart rate was too low
Um, I'm a very petite person. I've always had a very high metabolism still do
which I think is
in part due to being autistic because
My brain is just never shutting off and the brain actually consumes 20% of the body's total energy
So you can imagine if our brains are like going on double time
We our brains need more energy and I think that is also why autistic people tend to need more sleep
We're tired more often because the brain is just never
It's always running. Yeah, it's always running. Yeah, it just shocks me
You know when when you talk to another typical person, it's like, what are you thinking about? They're like nothing and I'm like, no, like no
They're like no, like I'm actually not thinking about anything. I was like, how is it? He was possible. Yeah, um
But yeah, so I had an eating disorder
Because I was of course a minor. I was 12 years old
I was forced into treatment and said like if you don't eat your meal plan like we're gonna put a feeding tube
But down your nose
Well, I did not want a feeding tube because I was like that is gonna completely take control away from me
So then it was like okay instead of the eating disorder like the purpose is gonna be the meal plan
I'm gonna be this perfect meal plan follower
Um, and of course that came with weight gain, but
Century-wise I was like I I cannot handle this and I think that's one of the biggest
misconceptions about you know fear of weight gain and
And eating disorders in autistic people's that's like oh fear of being fat or whatever for me
It was never about fear of becoming fat. I never had body dysmorphia
I never saw myself as fat. Um, it was really a century thing
Um, because I am just so incredibly sensitive like I
Don't even need to own a skill for me to know if I've gained a pound like I will feel that
like just the way everything fits and feels and things touching that you don't want to touch and it just
And fullness was also something so scary to me. Um, cuz I was like I want to crawl out of my skin
I want to like unzip my body and just jump out and run away
Which of course is is tied to that
Autistic fight-or-flight mode in a sense
And I think that is what an eating disorder does in a way
Numbs you so much that you don't have to feel confronted with those existential questions and with that
discomfort of being inhabited in the physical body basically, um
So yeah, I was just forced in and out of treatment for years
Um constantly like being kicked out and oh, well, she's too complex like she's non-compliant
She's treatment resistant because the whole thing was bullshit to me
I'm sorry. I don't know if you're allowed to swear on you. It's okay
But it's like, you know, you were talking about like oh
There's like a deep dark hole of trauma like you coping with food and you coping with your emotions
I'm like you guys do not know what you're even talking about and just the therapies that I did like
DBT and CBT and we did like family-based therapy with the parents take over the food
Which is the worst thing you can do to an autistic person because we need autonomy and we need control
Yeah, so if you yeah, so if you're gonna take that away from us
Well, we're just gonna latch onto the eating disorder even more so because you know, that was the evidence-based approach
Which I mean evidence-based could better be called evidence bias your typical evidence bias
Yeah, right and like it goes to men it would mentioning like lobotomies
We're freaking evidence-based too
but that was basically turning brains into men's meat and a lot of autistic people and schizophrenic people and
No-divergent people were lobotomized because their brains were wrong
Um side-tension, but yeah, so after just probably over seven years of being kicked in and out of treatment
It was like okay, like she's never going to get better because this is just hopeless
And from there kind of everything went really downhill my eating disorder got probably the worst it ever had
I really was on the edge of death at some point
until in
2017 I was like I
Can't I can't do this anymore?
Like I know that this is serving a purpose and I'm terrified of living and existing in this
Meaningless world
Which at the time that's what it felt like and I was like, well, I have two options, you know
either I let this illness kill me or I
See what life could be like and I knew in my heart the only way that I could
See what life could be like
Was if I allowed myself to fully experience it. Um
So yeah, that was hard
I'm not gonna go into the whole recovery because that's a whole nother rabbit hole in and of itself, but in
2020 I was
Like recovered from my eating disorder
I'd say you know as far as I believed one could recover
And I started coaching people because I had an Instagram at the time. I had my blog at the time
I was writing a lot at the time. That was my outlet and
People just really resonated with my story and the too complex and the hopeless
And my very first client actually was autistic. I didn't know anything about autism at the time
I was like, okay, you're autistic like tell me more about yourself
And as we were talking and as she was explaining, you know how being autistic
contributed to her eating disorder, I was like
holy
Shit like this is me. This is my entire life
and then as any
Curious autistic person would do I amose myself in everything I could learn about autism
I read probably like 10 books in a week. Um
Just learning like about the traits and how it manifests like specifically in girls and women
And I was like, yep
This is me
Like I basically just like self diagnosed myself on the spot right there and I was like
I don't care what any professional says I am autistic
Because it just it was the thing that clarified my entire life and almost gave me a reason
To make peace with my existence in a way because I was like, I'm not some of course
I'm an anomaly because everyone's an anomaly
Right, but it was like wow
I'm not that alien that doesn't belong here and that was a huge
Permission slip for me to exist on this planet and to stop feeling guilty for existing
Um, I think that's what an autism diagnosis self-diagnosed or professionally diagnosed tend to do to you is it gives you permission to exist
To stop feeling the guilt and the shame for being you
Yeah, ever since that first client and learning about autism
I just started learning more and more about the overlap between autism and eating disorders and just
More and more shocked about how no one was talking about this how there was no awareness around it
Looking back at my own treatment. I was like, wow like so much of this trauma that I had to endure
Wouldn't have been there if the autism had been understood and accommodated
Um, see ever since that I've just been focusing on spreading
Um stories of lived experience also through my own podcast sharing, you know
Common topics and questions that come up around the link
and yeah, so that's basically the live label free podcast and
Label free because I believe that you know a life of freedom and a life without restrictions
Can only be led when you stop placing labels on yourself and you stop placing judgment on yourself in the way you do things
And of course the question always comes up and what is an autism a label?
And I'm like, yeah, of course it is and so isn't eating disorder and so is freaking a computer
And so is the light bulb. They're all labels because that's how we talk to each other. That's how we communicate
Labels are not inherently a bad thing
But I think when we use labels from place of fear of like non-compliant treatment resistant
problematic
Rigid, you know, these labels are not helpful
It's all about you know, what's your intention behind the label and at the same time?
I feel like we can only be our true selves when we say, you know
I I can be myself and I can exist fully without any label even autistic like of course
I'm autistic but like without the autistic label like I'm still me. Um
Yeah, it's very nuanced which has was like the
Yeah, yeah, I know what you're saying
Yeah, and I think that's a very common autistic treat is just nuancing
Everything but because that thinking style can almost make us paranoid
I think that's in a way why we turn to the black and white because we're like if we do that
We don't have to deal with our nuanced thoughts
But I've come to learn that my nuanced way of thinking is my greatest superpower
I think that's what allows me to see things that other people cannot see and I think that's what allows autistic people to
Create things that other people could never create because we're able to read between the lines
So yeah, speaking of reading between the lines and reading in books rainbow girl is my memoir
Basically a very very deep dive into the brief story. I just shared
Just really outlining and illustrating my life growing up undiagnosed autistic
I explain, you know
How the nutrition class and all the factors that contributed to my eating disorder how that manifested?
I also just share, you know
How harmful treatment was and what people especially parents can look out for?
When if they have you know a child who is losing eating disorders
Treatment so they can better support their child because I think there's a lot of shame and blame put on parents
I know for my own parents, you know
They were told, you know, if you don't do this SBT, if you don't put your kid in treatment
You're making a really bad parental decision. Well
And you know, they just want the best and it's like well if they're the professionals like we must listen to them
But then it's of course ironic because when you kicked out of treatment, then suddenly the professionals are off the hook
It's like it just has to convenience them
It's like we throw your kid back to you. Good luck. Now the treatment is suddenly not the best thing anymore
Um, so yeah that and then of course like towards the end of the bucket
It's all about you know
What what I did to truly let go of my eating disorder and to leave that behind me because
Another common misconception about eating disorders is that it's something you just like kind of going to have like in your view of your
Mirror for the rest of your life, but no like the eating disorder is fully behind me
And I really like the metaphor because I'm writing a new book now
I really and I came up with this metaphor of like when you're baking cookies, like you obviously start with like raw cookie dough
Um, and then you bake the cookies in the oven and through that heat process like you can never
Unbaked the cookies again, like you can no matter what you do. You can put them in the freezer
You can never turn them back into raw dough
That is how I see recovery from eating disorder. I can never go back there because I've baked my cookies
And I've gone on to even more complex recipes, um, of course metaphorically
Speaking um, but yeah, that's kind of me in a nutshell
Um and and rainbow girl and it's also worth mentioning that I have a cookbook noticing no diversity
Um, if anyone's interested, I will definitely add the information for that as well. Yes. Okay
I also while there's I just there are a lot of things like I was I resonated with really strongly that you were saying
Um, I was also diagnosed relatively late in life. It was a little bit earlier. I was 16, but it was still
Later than I would have wished because um, even though
society
I still have my questions about like if society would have been more accommodating to how how much more accommodating it would have been
But I know that I would have been a lot more understanding and of myself and tolerant towards myself because what happened I
I had a lot of the same kind of um complex that you were describing about thinking
That I was just like a broken neurotypical that like why
Can't I do these things like everyone else? Why don't I do these things?
Why can't I do these things like everyone else? Why don't I understand these norms that everyone else seems to understand and
Why do these sensory things bother me more?
Than other people they're just like all these things started making
So much more sense and then you know, it also led to like for me
Um, also, you know like seeking validation a lot like always being hyper aware and
Hyper analyzing what other people's perceptions of me were even like during a conversation. I'll be doing that
and then
Yeah, it's hard because then I like I can't fully be in the conversation a lot of times
Because i'm like, how is this person perceiving me?
And then I go home and i'm like in bed and i'm still thinking about it and the other person might be completely like
They it's not even in their head. It's been long gone
And for me i'm like still thinking about it and and you mentioned also like
how we're always
Processing information and I saw there was like a statistic
lately from a study that
Autistic people process an average of 44 more information than neurotypical brains
I love that you mentioned that also regarding the metabolism I was talking about because I have a podcast episode
Coming out next week
Um, obviously, I don't know what that is in reference to this episode coming out
But it's going to be called autism and erection and metabolism and there actually have been studies
Um, that's how I knew about the 20 brain energy consumption thing and it turns out that
There have been a few studies that have found that
Autistic brains actually have like have up to 67 more neurons
Which are like the building blocks of the nervous system in the brain. So I mean obviously if there's more
Connections, there's gonna be more activity more, you know calories burned
Um, which I think is just fascinating. Yeah, it is no and it just helps it's even just like that
snippet of information and
It helps me understand so much about why i'm constantly thinking and like my brain is constantly activated
And the fact that it's not just that but like like you said how the brain
Consumes a lot of energy. So it's like of course i'm always drained and exhausted and
And that's one of the things that's been the hardest I think like throughout life
in terms of getting neurotypicals to understand that or non-autistic people or like
Even like my sister and my mom who are like
Not autistic or at least have very different experiences. Um
and
And it's like they don't seem to understand that like it's always running
I can't just turn it off like my sisters were like
So often telling me to just not think about it or to just relax and it bugs me
Like I if I wanted to I would
Right. Yeah. No, that's so funny because I was talking to a client yesterday. We were talking about just how stupid meditation
is um, because the amount of times i've been told like have you tried meditation and i'm like
Have I tried meditation like is that a joke?
And and someone actually commented on my instagram. I had done a post. Why is it so hard to be with my thoughts?
um
Someone literally commented. I was like, I think you're in the wrong place
Because I commented like you should try meditation seeing the thoughts as clouds just
Floating by and me and my client were just just broke out laughing because we were like they're not fucking clouds
If they were clouds, they would be clouds
They're not
And I think that's one of those things how you you know, we're like we are so in a sense able to see through like
Like what are you even talking about? Whereas other people are so almost
Lost and like oh someone told me that my thoughts are like clouds. They must be like clouds
clouds without even thinking like but they're not fucking clouds
Yeah, exactly. It's so hard to explain but it's just that can
You can hear it in sort just from my tone of voice
But like that can get me so frustrated so nice because i'm like how do you not see what you're saying does not make any sense
Yeah, exactly and and it relates also to like I think what you were saying about how
Neurotypical people they just naturally like go with all these norms and constructs even when they make no sense
right and it's like and i'm and then and it
One of the things that bugs me the most about it
Not only is it so confused confusing and perplexing to me
I'm like, all right, aren't you guys like questioning this or do you guys notice this and but they
Get upset with me when I point it out. They're like they treat me
Like the weird person right when i'm simply pointing out that something isn't accurate
and the reason yeah, the reason why of course they do that is because you're
Challenging the story they're telling you themselves and the human mind will do anything it can to maintain
The story because if you're going to say well the story you're telling yourself is is an illusion
Well, that is that is the biggest blow to the to the human ego
And if we don't know who we are or who we believe we are well, then what's left of us?
I mean, that's the scariest thing to be confronted with and I know we're getting really philosophical here
I think you know that is exactly why we have wars and we have
Conflicts is because just just take me a really simple like say of two political leaders one is saying
This is my view of the world. This is the only way it is
And the only reason I can live with myself is to fully immerse myself in that story because if I
even question the possibility of that well
No, I can't deal with that because then then the possibility become endless and existential ends
I can't face that and someone else who's believing the opposite story saying no
Well, this is how it is and if we can't agree well, then we must fight to the death
Because your story needs to be eradicated and now I'm gonna hire all my soldiers to help
Um, and then we you know have these world issues and then when you
Think about it when you look at it from an objective point of view you're like
Like what is this even about like this is like this is like two toddlers like fighting about the yeah
Like that is what it is and it's like I I truly believe that you know
Well, we would have world peace if every single person would would be open to acknowledging like
Well, maybe my story isn't
everything
Exactly
Yeah, yeah
Yeah, because I I sense that a lot like people they do not want to be it like makes them feel
We like they can't just be wrong about something like and it's okay, but it's really like
I've noticed like I think especially for neurotypicals. It's like more challenging because like for me. I'm like
Okay, I was wrong about this like this I can I can very easily like at least at this point in my life I can
Acknowledge and it doesn't it's like to me. It's like, okay
Like there's nothing wrong with being wrong about something but to some people it's like such a core
Insult to them if you if you say something that challenges their their belief and they have to like defend it to the core
So, yeah, I definitely relate to that
and yeah, I
Also, I just think it's really
And and I think you know
People don't really like when you were saying about
How the autism diagnosis like discovering you were out even before the diagnosis like when you just
When you realize that you were autistic, you know self-diagnosed or professional diagnosed it
Even when you just make that realization. Oh, I am like my brain works in a different way
It's so validating and like how and it can have
Such an impact and I think
People don't understand because like I see
Like I'm so tired of like
The gas lining that happens online when yeah, it like autistic people are just like going online and sharing their experiences and talking about it
Being autistic, but there's it just bothers. I don't understand but some people get so bothered and triggered by it
They and then they start calling us trendy or that we want attention or and it's like no, it's an experience
It's like it's like it's like it's like it's like it's like it's like it's like it's like it's like it's like it's like
No, it's an experience. It's not. Yeah
also the whole like
neurotypical is being like why is everyone getting diagnosed
Nowadays, it's just a trend. You're just trying to talk about it
And like I think so many people are getting diagnosed neurodivergent nowadays because
We have not been acknowledged for the past
Past in history, you know, and I actually saw
a really popular eating disorder recovery person posted something on YouTube and I was just,
I could not believe it because they said, they were talking about, someone had commented
on one of their videos, you know, how is eating disorder recovery different for neurodivergent
people? Probably because this person is just very, I won't name names, but very popular
in the eating disorder recovery space, written a book and everything, and she's talking in
her video and she's like, everyone's getting diagnosed with ADHD and autism left and right,
they're just popping up and you know, it doesn't matter if you're neurodivergent, I don't care
if you're neurodivergent, recovery from eating disorder is going to be the exact same for
you as it is for anyone else, and I was just watching this and I was like, clearly or not
neurodivergent, and I'm like, I cannot even believe you have the audacity to say this
as someone who clearly has no humility around the possibility of there being an alternative
approach. I think kind of that's the danger of gaining, you know, celebrity status in
any kind of space is you're like, I know everything and you lose your humility, and that's what
happens with treatment professionals a lot of the time, that's what happened to me, you
know, is the medical gaslighting is like, I've been working as a professional eating
disorder psychologist for the past 50 years, and I've treated hundreds and thousands of
patients. So if you are not getting better, and my care will obviously cannot be my care,
it must be you that's the problem, must be you that's too complex, and I'm like, too
complex, like, when did we say eating disorder is your autism or any kind of mental health
condition? When did we say it's simple? I mean, that's what defines a condition is something
that is freaking perplexing. Exactly. Yeah, it's it's ridiculous. But yeah, as you can
tell, I'm getting really riled up. But this that's why I'm so passionate about this, because
I think that is again, like, where I found my life's purpose is I'm so I found something
that I'm so incredibly passionate about, that I'm able to creatively turn that into something
that contributes beyond me and helps other people. And I think that is ultimately the
purpose of life. Like I said, it's not about being happy. It's about being so incredibly
passionate about your craft, your art, that you can contribute beyond yourself. Yeah,
definitely. I think that's a really powerful statement, because people get so caught up
in not just like the term is like their idea of like, the idea that it's just about being
happy. But also like what what being happy means to them is usually, though, they'll
go straight to like, how much money they're gonna make or whatever, like, and it's like,
obviously, it is important to like have enough money to be able to survive. But it's also
like not. It shouldn't be. I don't think it's that should be the goal of life is like, get
a super high paying job and like high paying status. It's an external circumstance. I mean,
this is actually funny, because that same client who I was talking about the meditation
in the clouds. We would just talk about how money itself is such a silly thing. It's made
up. We made it up. We made, we made it so important. And I mean, studies have consistently
shown and like billionaires and gazillionaires consistently like come out and on interviews
and say like, the more money I made, the more I realized how meaningless money is, there's
not gonna it's not gonna buy you anything like, yeah, you can have a nicer, shinier
car. And just like a psychologist can go to more use of med school to get a bigger, shinier
diploma. But it's like, I don't, I don't care what's hanging on your wall, what's in your
garage, or like, how big your house is like, that anything that is external is not that
doesn't come from inside you is not going to give you meaning and fulfillment. And I
think the delusion of the human mind is that we think that we can somehow compensate our
internal fulfillment with external things. But the more you you delude yourself, the
more unfocused you become because you're sucking your own possibility of internal fulfillment
you're sucking it in these external things are sucking it out of you. I don't even know
where I'm going with this. But that's something I've definitely learned.
I see what you what you mean. Yeah, because like, I see this happen a lot with like, not
even just society. But I mean, obviously, like, it's happened to me before. But because
of like people around me, just trying just like, yeah, like, making it like, oh, no,
focusing on all these external things. And, you know, just like the definition in this
modern capitalistic society of what success means, or is supposed to look like or like,
oh, what have I what have I produced and accomplished and like, just the meaning of accomplishment
as well. Like, I feel like it's very, the way it's defined is very narrow. It's a very
subjective thing. Because I mean, like I said, I thought, you know, I would be accomplished,
but like, let's take that money thing, for example, like people say, oh, I'll be accomplished
when I'm making like seven figures a year. But it's like, if you were living all by yourself
and have no one you can spend time with, because you're so obsessed with earning more money,
it's like, how successful are you if you have no one to share your success with? And for
me, the I feel more successful than ever, because of the connections I've made, and
I've been able to make those connections through creating my art, you know, through contributing
beyond myself, like, even just, you know, you emailing me and saying, like, I love listening
to your podcast. I'm like, this is what it means to be human is to connect with other
humans. When I, you know, receive messages from people who've read my book, are like,
wow, like, I finally understand myself. And especially from parenting, oh, my god, like,
I understand my kid now. I'm like, that like, I don't care if I'm living in a cabin with
like, earning $1 a day. Like, as long as we have human connection, we don't need anything
else. It's true. Yeah, it's and I, it's so overlooked, like that connection aspect, because
it's like, like, even when I talk to people about my podcast, and like, stuff like that,
I feel like they still like they see it in a different angle, like they're more they
see it like just by numbers and everything. And I'm like, it's not about like the number
it's nice to the I like when I talk about numbers, it's because I'm because I like how
oh my god, it's like impacting these people. It's not about like followers, like not about
clout. It's about like it's an impacting these many people. And I've had like, people reach
out to me and say like, my podcast has really helped them feel seen and understood and understand
themselves. And, you know, just like you were talking about how like, discovering that you
were autistic helped your eating disorder recovery journey. And it helped you understand
your eating disorder behaviors better. And like it's and they can do so many like that's
an example of what it did for you. And they can do so many different things for so many
of us. And yeah, again, what you said about the numbers and the cloud, it's, it's so nuanced,
because it's not about the number itself, but it's about what's underneath the number,
because of course, I'm the same, like, I may check my book, selling statistics a little
more than I care to admit. But you know, when I see that so many copies have been sold,
I'm like, oh my gosh, I reached this many new people that can discover more about themselves.
You know, it's not about the 15 on the screen or the 200 on the screen. It's who's behind
that 15 who's behind that 200. And I think that's where, you know, again, with the nuance
of like, like I said, with with the numbers, oh my god, my brain is doing that thing where
it thinks too fast and then forgets what it's gonna say because my words can't keep up.
Oh, which is why autistic people tend to talk very fast. Yeah, where was I going? Yeah,
it's about it's about, you know, what's underneath the number and what's underneath the external
circumstance. And I think that's why what tends to happen is we get lost and we confuse that fact,
we think, oh, well, it must be that only about the external circumstance. But the moment we lose our
intention behind why we want that circumstance, well, then there's no point in the journey
anymore. So I think it's really important for anyone, you know, to remember when you are
striving for so many downloads or like getting on like the New York Times bestselling list for
authors, whatever, is, you know, why do I want this? Like what actual true fulfillment is in this?
And if it is, you know, coming down to, well, then I can reach more people I can connect,
well, then it's worth it. But if it's like, oh, I just want that so I can tell people how much money
I made. I'm like, no one's gonna care. Yeah, at least not. I'm not gonna care. Like, because
I see, because like, I noticed, like, in neurotypical culture, how
Yeah, it's just like, there's all this emphasis on, oh, this person studied at such and such
university and, and is the art and is on such panel or whatever this and that. And it's like,
and that's like, what's most people like, it's, because like, I'm, I can tell, like, oh, they're
trying to hype this person up for a certain amount, like a group of people that think a certain way.
But I'm like, yeah, but I don't really care, like where he went to school or how much money he makes,
I care about like, what, who is he as a person? What are his values? I care about like, well, what
did you do that, like, is going against conformity? That's what I look for. And it's super funny,
because I always tell people that, you know, I love when people talk about their problems.
And I think, you know, there's this thing of like, oh, my God, I have so many issues, but
that's what makes you interesting. And I think that's what that's why people are interested in
stories. And that's why we love reading books is because like, I could read, read a book that
literally is, John woke up, he sat down, read the newspaper, drink his coffee, he spent the whole
day looking at the flowers, and then he went to bed. Well, technically, that's a story. But no
one is going to be interested because there's no problem. Like, if you know, John woke up and he
went outside, and suddenly there was a tiger in his yard that was about to attack him. It's like,
now I'm interested, what is John going to do to solve the problem? Yeah. And I think that's why,
you know, when I meet people, and I, I very quickly asked like, okay, what's your life story?
And they've had no problems. I'm like, I'm sorry, but I cannot engage with you.
Because clearly, like you've not learned important lessons that you can only learn
once you have to go through hardship. And I think that is what makes autistic people
so incredibly rich as humans is, of course, it's terrible that we've endured really hard
stuff and often have been traumatized in the process. But I think when you learn to turn that
mess right into a message, that is, that is creating art. That is the purpose of human existence
is you're turning whatever hardship or fear or whatever you endured, you're turning it into
something that contributes beyond yourself. I mean, the world's greatest artists and masterpieces
and singers and whatever, like when you ask them about their life story, it's you know,
I had a really hard childhood, I was really poor, music was my outlet, art was my way of expressing
myself. And what does it all come down to? Connection. Because we connect with the people
who are showing our art and they say, I'm really feeling myself in this song because I had a hard
childhood too, you know, but if we're gonna write a song about how pretty the daisies are outside,
it's like, no one's gonna listen to that. Because it's too perfect. Yeah. And it's like, yeah,
and I was just thinking, like, I was realizing that just because of like this, like these social
norms, like these neurotypical social norms and stuff, I feel like people are usually averse to
like real connection and like talking about their experiences. And that's so sad to me, because it's
like, not only is it like, when I start talking about this stuff and starting to connect, it's
like, it comes off as off-putting to them. And it's just to me, it's so much more valuable than
small talk. It's like, no, I want to get to the meat. I want to talk about my traumas. I want to
like connect. And it's also like, they feel like they can't talk about or they're just,
yeah, they feel like they can't talk about their stuff. And then it's like, they just want to keep
reverting to like small talk. And that's one of the things that bothers me so much about small talk.
It's like, yeah, there's no meat, there's no juice to the, there's no juice at all. We're just like,
I mean, it's interesting because it's like, I actually have a special interest in weather. So
like, I will talk about, but I'll start breaking it down because I've noticed because people use
weather as small talk. And they like, they'll talk about it and they expect it to be like a 30 minute
brush on the, no, a 30 second brush on the weather, but I'll give them a 30 minute brush. I'll
I'll go info dump about it. They're like, oh, it's supposed to rain today. Oh, it's a little chilly.
And I'll start talking all about the weather patterns and the wind and why it's chilly and
why it's raining. And because this air mass is coming from here and we have the winds gonna
well, it kind of going back to like the beginning of the conversation, like the conversation, like,
okay, well, if we're going to talk about weather, we're going to talk about weather. It's like,
it's going to have a purpose. And I think that is what it means to live with intention. It's like,
if you do something, do it, not half do it or like kind of do it, but do it. And I think that's
how I am with everything. And I think it's a strength, but it's also a Achilles heel because
I think in a way, if I want to start something and I know that there's a possibility that I won't
finish it or that I won't even start because I'm like, like I either do it or I don't. And
and I think, you know, that that is so important to be fully able to immerse yourself in that
experience. And actually, my Airbnb host, it was so serendipitous, but she's autistic and her son
is autistic and her husband is ADHD. We didn't even know when I came here. And she was saying
how like, she hates going to parties because whenever she goes to parties, and she's in a
conversation, the person will be like, okay, well, I have to go and she'll be like, she'll get so
annoyed because she won't be able to complete the conversation. Exactly. I feel that too. Like I
get into this conversation, I'm super into it. And then the person has to leave or like they start
talking about something else or like, especially if it's in a group, it's really hard. Like that's
why groups are so hard for me because it's like, it's just too much at once. It's too many. Exactly.
Yeah, I can't. I'm the same. And I think in eating disorder treatment, like it was all group therapy.
And that was just so not helpful. And I often joke about, it's not a joke, like it actually happened.
But I just bring it in a really funny way how doing group therapy, like we would all be holding
our like dialectical behavioral therapy books, which is like this big textbook. And I'm like,
why are you making like 16 year old kids read this? Like as if as if reading textbooks written by rich
white guys is going to magically make us recover from the eating disorder. Like the system, like
when you think about it, like that's like, what kind of billion dollar industry is this? Like what
are we even? Anyways, I would be like, this is so pointless. I knew this was bullshit. So I would
like hide like Sudoku books in the dvd. Yeah, just be doing that. And it was, yeah, I mean,
yeah, just so silly. And I think this, but this is one of those things of like, the professionals,
they don't want to have to face the possibility that their methods are not, don't make any sense,
because to do that would be literally to sacrifice and challenge your entire sense of
your identity. And we don't want our identity to be challenged. So we're going to pretend that
everything is fine. And if someone challenges me, well, then we're going to say the problem,
because then at least I'm off the hook. So yeah, anyways, no, exactly. Like I, I relate very much
to what you're saying. I have a few more. I just didn't. I wanted to do a quick check on how much
time you have because I was like, I felt so bad to say anything because I was like, we were just
talking about we're so in the conversation, then someone says they have to go. But yeah, I actually
do have a client call on like 20 minutes. Okay, so we can start wrapping up that would be fantastic.
Okay, cool. Um, rest all just fell on the floor. Oh, my God.
Oh, I'll try to get through these. Pretty. I'm like the start of the chaos.
Yeah. Um, so my next question is, what was it like disclosing your neurodivergence to your friends
and family? Yeah, well, I think it was very mixed. Um, I must say that I had a very positive
general experience. Um, because I know a lot of people when they say like, they're autistic,
their friends and family will be like, you can't be autistic, you're too social, you can't be
autistic, you're too smart, you're not obsessed with mouth and trains, body, body, you're not
way man. Um, and funny thing is, I actually had not seen the movie, way man, until everyone started
talking about it. I was like, Okay, well, I have to watch main man now. Um, but I mean, my mom and
my sisters were like, well, duh, like, that doesn't surprise us at all. Um, especially, you know, when
when reading books about it and stuff, because it was like, yeah, this is just Olivia, this is who
you are. Um, I think the only person that resisted the fact that I was autistic was my dad, who's also
autistic. But it's because he refuses it in himself, because, because he has this really
stereotypical idea of what autistic means. I remember, because I basically diagnosed my dad
with with autism when I knew about it, because I was like, Oh, my God, this makes so much sense.
Like, this is why we're so similar in a way, um, why he was always overstimulated by everything. Um,
and, yeah, just always complaining that everything was too loud, and to this and to that and whatever,
um, just life was too much for him, like he could not handle things. And, um, I remember saying like,
Dad, you're totally autistic. And he was like, No, I'm too social. Like, I went to university, I
got I graduated college, and no way I can be autistic. And I'm like, like, how are those things
related? Um, but I think that that's the perfect illustration of the stigma is like, I am too,
quote unquote, high functioning to be autistic. Um, but I'm like, well, how like, he was telling
me also, like, I started like, of course, challenging him and questioning him, like,
okay, well, how many days do you need after you've had a social interaction? He's like,
Oh, yeah, like, I can't talk to people for like a week. And I'm like, yeah, like, do we need to say
more? And I was like, Well, what about college and university? Like, how was that? And he was
like, Oh, yeah, like, it was awful, because I wanted to like, deepen myself in the subjects,
but we kept moving on to more subjects. And I was like, Yeah, okay. But, but my but it kind of,
I think it's he's been he was very traumatized as a child. And he's very still carrying a lot of
trauma in him, because he's, he's not healing that. And I think that is a conscious choice,
because he's afraid to be vulnerable, which I think can be really difficult when you have been
heavily traumatized in your youngest years. And I think, you know, this saying, like, I can't be
able to say like, I'm too functioning, or to this to that, I think it's his, his way of having adapted
to his circumstances to say, like, if I can say that I'm like a normal person that graduated
college and is able to socially interact, well, then I don't have to admit that I'm different.
And when we don't have to admit that we're different, well, then we're protecting ourselves
from being vulnerable. Because in the past, that's what saved our life if we've been traumatized.
Um, so kind of to answer your question about what was it like disclosing it, everyone was super
receptive. And, you know, everyone who's read my book, and follow my blog and read my podcast, and
especially like knowing and being and seeing the situation, how it was when I was really,
really sick, like they're all so proud of me and how I've like, gone through such a hard time
into something so great. Um, but yeah, like, literally the only person that still challenges
everything I say about autism is my dad. Um, and I know he's not gonna listen to this. Because
he's like the only person in my circle that is like very anti learning about it, because he's like,
we don't need to talk about this. Um, but I think that just goes to show that, again, it's the fear
of you being vulnerable. Yeah, I agree. And I think it's interesting you mentioned that, because I also
have a parent, my mom, that I have a strong suspicion that she is autistic, and I have voices
to her. And it's a similar kind of response. It's like she doesn't want to see it. Because she has a
very stereotypical idea. I mean, she was raised with a very stereotypical idea, I think not not
so much anymore because of raising me, but I still feel like it's like she doesn't want to
accept that label because of the stigma around it. But it's and I mean, I understand that it's like,
she probably doesn't see much difference or like much benefit in getting in self diagnosing or
getting a diagnosis or whatnot. Like she, but it's just like, there's so much about her that I've
always noticed, like she also feels weird in social situations. She also gets like sensory,
yeah, sensitivities and aversions. And it's like there's there all these little things like she
also, I feel like, probably also because of trauma and everything, like I feel like she just goes
with social stuff more than I do. Like, I feel like I'm more unmasked at this point where I'm
just like, no, this doesn't make sense. I don't want to go. I'm not going to go. I'm more like
confident in my boundaries. And I think she's still working on that where like she,
still feels compelled to do certain things. But like, we've always both questioned these norms
and stuff. So yeah, there's just all, there's definitely, there's definitely things that I see
and that's like one of the first things you talked about, like,
an autistic trait that doesn't get talked about a lot, but I think it's it drives so many of us is
like the sense of like questioning societal norms, which is one of the main things I do with this
podcast. And yeah, yeah. So I have one I know you have to go in like 10 minutes. So I have one
final question for you. This has been a really great conversation. Yeah, I feel like honestly,
we could talk like endlessly. Yeah. There's so much to talk about. Yeah, definitely. We could do,
hopefully, maybe we could do another episode in the future. Yeah, yeah. And you can definitely
come on my podcast. Awesome. I'd love to. Yeah. Yeah, I'm taking a little break now from gas,
because I think I told you I'm literally moving next month, and I need to find an apartment
that's affordable in freaking Boston out of all places. So yeah, I've been very stressed about
that, especially because I mean, housing is like a vital human need. And of course, the
unpredictability that comes with that, or the lack of
Yeah, once I'm settled, I'm definitely, I would love to have you on. Awesome. Yeah, I'd love I'd
love to come on. And so I'll just close it off with with this final question. What are some of
the most common eating disorder struggles people reach out to you seeking help for? And what are
the and is sugar one of those? And what is the most common pieces of advice you give them?
Yeah, well, I'll start off with the sugar one, because I think it's it's, it's such a big one.
Because I feel like they're kind of two, they're like three, I don't want to like type people,
but they're like three common angles that people come to me from. And number one is, you know,
from the restriction angle, and that's like anorexia, compensation, like restrictive eating
disorders, feeling really, really stuck in these patterns of basically just being afraid to live
life full out, and using that eating disorder as almost a cocoon of safety of like, of numbing of
counting calories, you know, being obsessed with exercise, obsessed with healthy eating in a way,
because in a way that's provided with us with constraints, like, if I have one option for
everything, if, if I have all these rules around food, well, then I have to don't have to deal with
that like analysis paralysis that comes with, you know, having choices around food and being
spontaneous and being flexible around it. So I think a big question is, you know, like, how,
how do I recover from the eating disorder behaviors while embracing my autism? And part of that is,
you know, being able to distinguish between eating disorder behaviors and autistic traits,
which is really challenging, because they overlap, like, all the time. So we really talk about, you
know, that why and that intention behind the behavior, because that's what it comes down to,
you know, eating disorder behaviors are always rooted in fear, you know, fear of, of those
consequences, fear of feeling a certain way, fear, fear of fullness, fear of gaining weight,
whatever. Whereas I think autistic traits are all about, you know, having that self compassion,
you know, if looking at the menu beforehand, which during my own eating disorder treatment,
wasn't eating disorder behavior, I still do that because it helps me like to know what I can expect.
And if I know what I can expect, I'm going to feel calm, I'm not going to feel anxious. So same
behavior could be coming from a place of fear, in like a typical person of like, oh, I need to know
that the menu has like a healthy salad or something. But for an autistic person, it can be really
helpful to be like, oh, I know that these are a few options that I like, um, doesn't necessarily
mean I'm going to choose like the lowest calorie one, actually, you can use it to your advantage
and say like, oh, I know they have, I don't know, a double cheeseburger, I always wanted that.
I haven't eaten that in 10 years. Um, I'm going to mentally prepare that I'm going to get that
at the restaurant. So in that case, again, super helpful. Um, so and then the, the second one is,
you know, parents come to me who are just so confused by why is their kid not performing the
normal human function of eating, like they're so perplexed. And often the kid has gone through
so much treatment and has been thrown out of the health care system. And these parents are at a
complete loss. It's like, how can I support my kid? How can I provide them with safety and trust?
Because those are such important words. Um, I think especially in the case of demand avoidance,
PDA, autism, um, you know, any of those like family based treatment modalities, the evidence
based thing we talked about, um, that can just have a paradoxical effects. Um, and so I kind of
teach them, you know, from my own perspective of being autistic, like, well, this is probably how
your kid feels like, what if we try this approach, um, really advising them on, you know, how to have
their kid maintain that autonomy and maintain that sense of control, and at the same time, you know,
supporting them so that they feel empowered enough to challenge and move forward and become
healthy. Um, and then the sugar one, um, if you know, a lot of autistic people who just struggle
with that analysis paralysis around food preparation, um, and, and like, oh my gosh, like,
it's so much easier to, to reach for the dopamine and then to take the time to again, be with
yourself and, and think about like, what would actually nourish my body right now? Um, and I
think that would dopamine is a huge one. Um, and stimulation is a huge one. And I think that's why
sugar can be a tricky one for autistic people. Um, is that, you know, it's, it's quick energy,
it's stimulating. Um, it's in every way, it's, it's delicious. Like, um, in a way it's, and it's an
escape from our thoughts. Like if I'm indulging in like a really delicious piece of cake, I don't
have to think about the fact that I have a whole list of emails waiting for me to be answered. I'm
like totally immersed in the enjoyment of that cake. Um, and I think that in and of itself can
become an addiction when you're burnt out and you're overwhelmed is like, the only thing I know that
consistently allows me to escape is sugar, is food. Um, which of course is like the opposite end of
the spectrum when it comes to autism and eating disorders. Um, and, and I think again, it's important
to realize that eating sugar or using food as an escape is not an inherently bad thing. I think
so much stigma about emotional eating, blah, blah, blah, blah. But if food was not supposed
to hold any emotional value, we would not have cookbooks. We would not have Thanksgiving. We
would not have Christmas dinner. Like of course, because again, food is part of why we are able to
establish connection, not only with our body, but with other people. Um, it's, it's allowed to hold
emotional value, but it's about is food the only thing giving you pleasure in life? Well, maybe
that's worth exploring. Is food the only way that you're able to find a temporary escape? Maybe
that's worth exploring. I think a key takeaway from this, um, and something that I talk about
with all my clients when it comes to like reframing our mindset around our food behaviors, whether
it's restriction or overeating or eating sugar or whatever it is, is, you know, how can we look at
the situation from a curiosity rather than judgment? Um, cause when we stop labeling things as good or
bad, right or wrong, I should have shouldn't do this. And we say, Hmm, what purpose is this serving?
Do I want this to keep serving that purpose? Or do I want to explore alternative ways in which I can
manage this difficulty in my life? That's when we feel empowered to actually live a life that's in
alignment with our true core values. Definitely. Yeah. That makes a lot of sense. Um, just like
questioning like where, where it's coming from. Um, yes, I think it's, it's really important. Yeah.
Yeah. I think that's the root of everything in life is asking yourself, why, why do I want this?
What purpose is this serving? Yeah. Well, I know you, you have another meeting coming up soon,
but I wanted to thank you again for coming on. This was a really, really great episode. I'll be,
um, posting the links to Livia's podcast and a book and cookbook. And I will, I'm also really
looking forward to coming on your podcast when you're, when you're more settled in, of course.
Um, and, um, yeah, this once again, this was a great episode. Thanks again. Yeah. Thanks so
much for having me on. And, um, I can't wait to listen when it's out and share it with my friends
and especially my mom. I'll let you know when it's out. I'm estimating like within a few days,
it depends on like the editing and like, yeah, sure. No rush at all. All right. Thanks George.
Thanks. Bye.