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Hello and welcome to episode number 18 of the Awesome Algo podcast.

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Today we have a very special guest, MG.

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He is a co-founder of a platform and a protocol called Go Plausible, previously known as Algorand

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Proof of Attendance Protocol.

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Yeah, the one that was previously named.

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Yeah.

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And essentially we will try to do a high-level overview of the platform's architecture,

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its main features, what distinguishes it from the other competition in the Algorand space

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and perhaps some major comparisons with bigger protocols that provide similar capabilities.

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And with that, thanks again for coming to the show, MG.

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The stage is yours.

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I would really love us to start, as it's given with most of the guests on the show, with

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your background.

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And if we could perhaps start with, can you share a little bit about your early years

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getting into computer science?

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What sparked your interest in engineering and computers in the first place?

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First of all, hey everyone, hey Algorand, hey Algo fam, everybody.

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Thank you so much Al for inviting me on.

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Here's a great honor for me.

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Very simply, I just started, I've been more than 25 years on the field for the computer,

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whatever role, because it was a lot of variations.

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I started with network and security, got drawn to software design and architecture.

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And since there's a point where everyone involved on that level to somehow recognize for some

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tasks when you want something done, it's better that you do it yourself, at least do the first

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version of it yourself.

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So I got drawn into more serious developments and learned some programming languages and

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got started with that.

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And I've been a little bit around eight years focusing on developing solutions myself with

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the help of my wife, who is actually the co-founder of Go Plausible, 15 years happily married.

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And since the first, actually weeks or so, we started to co-developing with each other.

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She's focused on front-end solution engineering and I'm more focused on backend APIs, data

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and anything related to smart contracts recently because we are actually on the field of ELTs.

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So this is a brief history of me.

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And very simply, I just, I would like to think, I don't care about the programming languages,

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but more care about the data structures and algorithms.

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Once they're there, once you understand them, it doesn't matter which language you use,

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it's just a matter of syntax.

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And syntax is very, very related to abundance and actually the nurturing nature of availability

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for information here and there, first on the internet and secondly now during the age of

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AI and it's easily there.

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So syntax is not a huge problem.

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If you get dedicated to it.

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So I would like to think that the most important part for anyone involved in computer science

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is the problem solving.

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So once you learn how-to's regarding those algorithms and data structures and learn some

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kind of problem solving mindset, I think you're set to go.

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I absolutely agree with your point and thank you.

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Thank you with this wonderful introduction.

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I guess I'll spare you from the question of asking what was your first ever programming

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language you had experience with, but if you want to mention it, it would be interesting

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as well.

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Yeah, you will laugh at me, but the first programming language, what was actually, it

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was not a programming language, more like a scripting language.

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I started with R. My first serious assignment, and it was a very heavy project, categorization

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of tons of actually scientific papers written in order to finding duplications, counterfeiting,

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copying, and all those sort of things.

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And I just needed to do that with R somehow because it was very restricted.

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So I started with R and just continued to learn my way into, for a small portion of

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time, I used.NET for a very large banking project, one of the most serious ones I've

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had so far.

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Actually, the first risk management system that was implemented in my country's banking

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system.

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So after that, I just immediately found out at the time, because it was the.NET version

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too, the limitations of.NET and migrated into Java for, I think, five or six years.

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And right after that, because of something, I just left Java and never touched that back

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again and just came into this new paradigm, as I told you, to being floated right among

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and not caring about the programming language.

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But most focused, I very much love to use Python, JavaScript, TypeScript, and ROS.

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These are the languages I'm most comfortable with currently.

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But again, it doesn't somehow not make a difference.

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If something is needed to be learned in order to provide some functionality or something

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that you cannot find in other languages, so be it.

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You need to learn it.

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There's no way to do it.

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I must say though that R is, in certain scenarios, is pretty great for data visualization and

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especially for dealing with data transformation, like the Deployer framework and the way they

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have this plugin system, very convenient for data scientists to do.

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The plugins are awesome.

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In that ecosystem, you will find everything and the coexistence of the C and C++ programming

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languages, native usage of those languages, made it a vast plugin ecosystem for R that

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you can use for fast computation or whatever tasks you have in mind.

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So yeah, I agree, totally agree.

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One of my favorites.

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If any data science enthusiast is listening to this and is interested in making some cool

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drafts and charts for Algorand statistics, probably check out R and the R studio and

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the Deployer.

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A lot of things can be simplified there.

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And I guess maybe proceeding a bit further in terms of biography, what was your...

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And before I ask about Algorand, obviously, co-plausible is built on Algorand.

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There's going to be an interesting set of questions we can cover there.

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But before that, if we are to touch a little bit broader in terms of just the world scope

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of decentralized systems, fault-tolerant systems, prior to Algorand, what would you say was

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one of the first things that made you interested in this particular domain and what appealed

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to you the most about them?

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Actually, my first encounter with similar technologies and more like cryptography or

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DL, some sort of distributed ledger technologies, goes far back to a project I was...

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I somewhat submitted to on an Innocentive website, if you're familiar with.

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It was an old website that was using to submit great challenges as ideas and invite people

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in order to provide solutions, some kind of bounty system.

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And there was a project called VOTEM, and that project was some sort of creating a voting

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system based on distributed ledger technologies, cryptography, and so on and so forth.

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So my first encounter was for that project, I was one of the submissions and I actually

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made it from the first round to the second round of the 100 elected solutions.

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So that was my first encounter with similar...

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With this domain of technology.

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But I didn't touch that again for years after.

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And some of my close friends, dear friends, were going to start a company working on some

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NFT projects on some blockchain.

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They ran an R&D, came up with some initial candidates.

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The most prominent one was Algorand and just asked me if I am interested to collaborate

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with them.

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So that was my first encounter.

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I ran an R&D about Algorand, tried to read the papers here and there, whatever I could

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somehow take my hands on.

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And right after that, based on two initial properties of Algorand, that was love at first

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sight.

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Number one was performance and number two was composability.

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These two for me was the first two properties of Algorand.

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So definitive that for me, it was totally convincing right at that moment.

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And I just decided because I was in the middle of some changing domains phase in my personal

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life and professional life as well.

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So it was instantly the best candidate that I could count on in order to create or being

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part of the future of the economy as it is getting shaped by these new technologies.

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So for me, it was that.

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And when you speak of composability, if you could just expand a little bit on that, I

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guess, aside from maybe core properties of the consensus itself, you're probably referring

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to the architecture as a whole in this case.

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Exactly.

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And different building elements available in there because let me just rewind a little

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bit back.

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I'm a big fan of Lego and Lego architecture and Lego way of thinking.

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So because since I somehow opened my eyes, there were the dominant toys around me.

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I just got into them since a very, very early age.

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And that gave me some kind of mindset around that.

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So even I use it in my professional life and I'm going to or trying to build something

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regarding the architecture.

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I always think of it as a Lego structure.

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So we're starting by very distinctive, very raw building blocks and trying to get to that

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whole architecture as of a structure, not as of a big monopole or monolith thing.

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So Algorand was actually the only blockchain that had all of these basic Lego elements,

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different shapes that are needed in order for you to be able to create a bigger thing

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or bigger structure.

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So totally suitable for me and my way of looking at things using all of those elements, the

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standard assets, smart contracts, atomic transactions, everything.

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They just help that because they're very raw, very basic and very essential and elemental

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in their own way.

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But they can compose with each other and create more complex structures.

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This is what you need.

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This is organic.

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So whatever that creates a very complex organic structure with very basic fundamental elements

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is what I fell for and I love to work with.

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Awesome.

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Yeah, I see.

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So you're, I guess, in this case also referring to the L1 capabilities of the chain and the

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way I guess particular features are basically designed in a manner that are essentially

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not overlapping with each other.

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As you said, you can use them as building blocks for something very complex.

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And by introduction of contract to contract calls and ADIs, it just got to a whole new

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level and it just got unleashed.

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It's just waiting to be explored more and more because the systems, yes, the financial

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systems, the economic systems, the payment system, everything that are building, some

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are getting built right now, they are not as complex as the actual traditional banking

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systems in place.

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Or for example, the industrial operations support systems such as the ARPs and so on

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and so forth.

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They are not as complex as them.

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They are in their infancy.

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The technology, the whole technology is somehow in its infancy.

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They need to get mature and the way of maturity gets paved in by the first building blocks

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and Algorand has them all.

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Everything is in place.

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It's just something in need of getting built more and more complex systems and they are

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coming regardless of the bearish market, which is somehow doing us a little bit of damage

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and harm in terms of developments and improvement.

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But if there is one thing, one thing real in this world that is change, so all we need

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to do is be patient and waiting for the world to do as it does.

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Change.

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And I guess let the developers create.

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Well, everyone is, I guess, awaiting in these bear cycles.

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Yeah, we build.

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We need to.

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There is no way.

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If you are a builder or developer by nature, you cannot help it.

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Yes, you complain about conditions, you're uncomfortable, you somehow may go through

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some hard times.

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Nobody can tell you your mood changes, everything.

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But the only constant thing if you're doing it by passion and love is building.

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That will continue.

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You cannot help it.

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In your saddest moments, you find yourself behind that keyboard and looking at that code

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and wishing, okay, let me do it differently.

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It may work this time.

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Awesome.

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And that makes me think of a few questions that we can tackle closer to the end of the

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episode when we will talk a little bit about some, you know, advices for aspiring developers

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and engineers.

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But with that, I guess, let's talk about the main topic of the episode, Go Plausible.

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So what is, I suppose, the first story behind Go Plausible?

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How was the project first conceived?

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If you could perhaps start with a little story behind, you know, the first days of the project

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and perhaps if you could also give a bit of insights into how you researched on, because

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I assume you probably had to look at some examples in the bigger ecosystems outside

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of Algorand and curious if you also found some interesting lessons there as well.

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Sure.

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Actually, it goes back to a year and I think a year and a half, yes, something like that

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ago.

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And that was when I was working on some projects.

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I was freelancing on some projects.

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And during the talk with Adriana and separately with Johanna, they just brought on a very

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interesting subject of Algorand events and venues and the requirement for them to be

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somehow, first of all, trackable, to see, OK, what are the statistics?

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How many people have been met?

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How many people have been engaged to?

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And also be more engaging and more interactive.

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So at that and at the time, there was a project, Proof of Attendance Protocol, that was mainly

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working on their ecosystem.

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But that project was the only project that somehow was workable through these scenarios

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for unchain recording of your interactive attendance or participation or something like

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that.

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So, yes, naturally and obviously, I just look at it as a problem.

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And in order to solve it, the first step was research and to see what is available, what

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are the other opinions and comments regarding that and how other people are trying to solve

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that.

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But the fact I just found was that that was because solutions are different.

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Some solutions are short-term solutions, more like a patch solution or band-aid solution

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in order to, for example, a very simple example, when you cut your finger, you just use a very

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simple band-aid or use a napkin in order to stop bleeding and everything else would take

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place naturally.

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So no more continuous solution for this problem, problem solved very easily within a minute

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or so.

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But for some more serious problems, you need a routine, you need some methodology to guarantee

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that what you provide as a solution is first future-proof and then guaranteed to be continuous,

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continuously able to grow, continuously able to extend, to expand, and so on and so forth.

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So first of all, that was the only project that was active on such a similar domain that

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our problem was on.

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So the competition scope, when we want to refer it in the future in this discussion,

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was completely narrow.

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There was only one actually project.

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The other projects were located mostly on Web2 space.

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So for Web3 space, there was only one project strongly working and having a solution at

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hand, PoApp project by PoApp Inc.

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So I researched them and I just found them mostly non-decentralized and mostly non-permissionless

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to very, very high extents.

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So I just learned from it.

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I just set it aside and again went to the problem, raw problem itself.

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How are we going to solve it in a very dynamic way, Lego way, if you want to call it that.

247
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So I came to some idea of, okay, for anything that happens outside of an unchained realm,

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we can have a replica proof, unchained, and actually if we could implement it dynamically

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and by configuration enough, by dynamic configuration enough, we can make sure that we have a system

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that can generate a proof for anything and distribute it unchained to as many wallets

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as possible.

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So that was the idea proof of anything.

253
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That was when the idea proof of anything got born.

254
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But since the first step, I would like to think myself as very simple and classic man.

255
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So I have a classic mindset and very strict mindset about some things.

256
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One of them is respect.

257
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I always try to have that respect, respecting elders, respecting those who are pioneers,

258
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who tried some way for the first time, so on and so forth.

259
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So other respect, I just said, okay, let's start by having a combination of the blockchain

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that I'm working on, algo for sure, and the name of the protocol, which took the first

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step, so that was totally honorary and out of respect move, I just code name the project

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AlgoPoA.

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But when the project got built and got some traction and got some usage, we got some frictions

264
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with them and somehow got threatened by their lawyer with the lawsuit, sent some attachments,

265
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some PDFs, letters here and there, and we decided, okay, it doesn't worth it, respect

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to some extent, and okay, let's move beyond it because since the first inception of project

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on the project website, there was a presentation of proof of attendance on Algorand, but the

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attendance word was glitching into anything.

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So the idea was there since day one, and we just made it extra unnecessary movement out

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of respect, which we corrected along the way and rebranded to GoPlausible, and here we

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are now and working under the name of GoPlausible as a brand, and the protocol name is plausible,

272
00:20:54,000 --> 00:20:59,360
and the unit of operation is called Clause instead of that POAP name that they are using.

273
00:20:59,360 --> 00:21:02,480
So Clause is the operational name for proof of anything on Algorand.

274
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I see.

275
00:21:03,480 --> 00:21:04,480
I see.

276
00:21:04,480 --> 00:21:09,480
Yeah, I mean, sorry to hear about some misfortunes in regards to the original name.

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I recall that, I guess, yeah, on some sense, you could also view it as a way because since...

278
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The name was weird, I think.

279
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I've been told that the name was weird, and I some kind of agree with that.

280
00:21:24,120 --> 00:21:28,720
Algorand POAP was some kind of not as...

281
00:21:28,720 --> 00:21:33,200
For brand name, I totally agree with everybody that complained about that.

282
00:21:33,200 --> 00:21:39,000
It was a little bit weird, but again, project code names for startups, they're all weird.

283
00:21:39,000 --> 00:21:40,880
They're called night toots, something like that.

284
00:21:40,880 --> 00:21:44,880
They're code names, and when you got into some phase that you need a brand for some

285
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serious business, you need to change them into some serious names.

286
00:21:48,160 --> 00:21:49,160
Yeah, exactly.

287
00:21:49,160 --> 00:21:53,760
And there was also, I guess, there's just far too many, I guess, things in the ecosystem

288
00:21:53,760 --> 00:21:58,400
that at Algorand in the beginning, so I guess this was also one of the ways to see how this

289
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can be worked out.

290
00:22:00,120 --> 00:22:06,760
But on the other hand, also maybe for some layman listeners there who are not entirely

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familiar with what the heck we are talking about here, if you perhaps could also, before

292
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we also talk a little bit about some of the major features of the platform, if you could

293
00:22:20,240 --> 00:22:28,440
showcase a very simple explanation of how exactly this platform can help you for a scenario,

294
00:22:28,440 --> 00:22:31,200
let's say, and I'll pick something simple.

295
00:22:31,200 --> 00:22:37,600
Let's say you have a friend who is essentially organizing a concert, let's say a concert

296
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for a nonprofit organization.

297
00:22:40,280 --> 00:22:46,120
He has rented a place that has 100 seats and he goes to Google or Bing or whatever and

298
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he starts typing, okay, how do I make a registration system for that?

299
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How do I prove that these people actually attended this and they maybe made some donations?

300
00:22:56,600 --> 00:23:01,680
And I feel like this is where GoPlosable can fit right in and solve this exact scenario.

301
00:23:01,680 --> 00:23:06,880
But if you could explain a little bit, well, how?

302
00:23:06,880 --> 00:23:16,120
For whatever event or interaction or whatever physical event that happens in the real world,

303
00:23:16,120 --> 00:23:18,320
you can create or generate the proof.

304
00:23:18,320 --> 00:23:25,320
And regarding your example, when those 100 people go to that concert in order to explain

305
00:23:25,320 --> 00:23:32,400
how does it work, they can simply find a QR code in front of their seats or some are displayed

306
00:23:32,400 --> 00:23:34,960
on a screen or on a banner.

307
00:23:34,960 --> 00:23:41,420
When they scan that QR code, each one of them can claim a proof regarding their attendance

308
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or participation in that event or venue is as simple as that.

309
00:23:45,760 --> 00:23:51,880
And when an event organizer wants to find out, okay, how can I do that?

310
00:23:51,880 --> 00:23:56,480
When they go for searching on Google, if they use the correct set of keywords, because we

311
00:23:56,480 --> 00:24:03,920
work extensively on our search engine optimization process as well, if they use, for example,

312
00:24:03,920 --> 00:24:11,000
the words proof, distribution, and algorithm, some correct keywords, they will be leaked

313
00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:12,720
on the first page of Google.

314
00:24:12,720 --> 00:24:22,920
And also, if they ask the chat AI agents such as GPD, very soon they will find out that

315
00:24:22,920 --> 00:24:28,080
they are getting aware of this concept and they can guide them, okay, go plausible and

316
00:24:28,080 --> 00:24:32,960
POAP, Inc. are currently the ones that provide such a service.

317
00:24:32,960 --> 00:24:34,720
So it is easy to find us.

318
00:24:34,720 --> 00:24:41,480
And in order to provide those proofs, in order to be able to author them, you need a Web3

319
00:24:41,480 --> 00:24:42,480
wallet.

320
00:24:42,480 --> 00:24:48,800
And in order to claim them or participate or somehow claim a proof that you have attended

321
00:24:48,800 --> 00:24:55,360
on that event or in that interaction or somehow anything else that needs a proof, you don't

322
00:24:55,360 --> 00:25:02,120
need to have a wallet because we, since the start, we provided the claiming process to

323
00:25:02,120 --> 00:25:04,620
be available in a Web2 and a half way.

324
00:25:04,620 --> 00:25:11,720
So either you are just a pure Web2 user with a browser and internet connectivity, or you're

325
00:25:11,720 --> 00:25:17,880
a Web3 user with a wallet on hand, you can claim your proof by simply scanning that QR

326
00:25:17,880 --> 00:25:22,040
code or clicking that link that is being sent to you as an attendee.

327
00:25:22,040 --> 00:25:23,040
I see.

328
00:25:23,040 --> 00:25:24,040
Yeah.

329
00:25:24,040 --> 00:25:29,120
So essentially to recap here, the main use case is extremely broad and generic.

330
00:25:29,120 --> 00:25:35,640
Anything that requires a proof and anything that requires certification of a proof based

331
00:25:35,640 --> 00:25:37,400
on certain physical event, right?

332
00:25:37,400 --> 00:25:39,400
This could even be expanded to...

333
00:25:39,400 --> 00:25:45,480
I could also bring up a quick reference to one of the projects we are maintaining at

334
00:25:45,480 --> 00:25:52,640
MakerX called Data History Museum, which essentially stores records of earthquakes that happen

335
00:25:52,640 --> 00:25:54,200
on Algorand blockchain.

336
00:25:54,200 --> 00:26:01,080
And I assume this is also one of the use cases where perhaps AlgoPoOP could be helpful as

337
00:26:01,080 --> 00:26:07,000
a platform to essentially streamline some of this business logic on chain computation

338
00:26:07,000 --> 00:26:13,400
to an already existing protocol that is built for anything that requires proof.

339
00:26:13,400 --> 00:26:18,960
And just to clarify a bit on the terminology, I guess for people who are not familiar with

340
00:26:18,960 --> 00:26:27,240
what Web2.5 means, this is essentially just a terminology referring to usually authentication

341
00:26:27,240 --> 00:26:33,800
or authorization flow that hides certain aspects of dealing directly with wallet providers.

342
00:26:33,800 --> 00:26:39,520
Not everyone is of course, I guess, comfortable or familiar with dealing with mobile wallets

343
00:26:39,520 --> 00:26:43,400
and memorizing 25 words in your memory.

344
00:26:43,400 --> 00:26:47,980
So there are certain businesses currently being built in the industry that provide features

345
00:26:47,980 --> 00:26:50,320
that allow you to hide and abstract this away.

346
00:26:50,320 --> 00:26:55,360
So you present it with a regular email, login flow as usual, but then behind the scenes

347
00:26:55,360 --> 00:26:58,640
it actually interacts with an actual crypto wallet.

348
00:26:58,640 --> 00:27:02,880
But it just makes the experience a bit easier for you because it's still...

349
00:27:02,880 --> 00:27:07,720
Web3 is still a very small, I would say, exposure towards if you compare it with big giants

350
00:27:07,720 --> 00:27:12,280
or technologies that everyone is essentially grown up with already.

351
00:27:12,280 --> 00:27:17,320
So that's what Andrzej meant when he mentioned Web2.5.

352
00:27:17,320 --> 00:27:25,760
We are on our own way in order to get there and no good thing in this world can be achieved

353
00:27:25,760 --> 00:27:27,920
in a very short amount of time.

354
00:27:27,920 --> 00:27:36,880
It needs patience and dedication and when we pay that much patience and determination

355
00:27:36,880 --> 00:27:41,800
and dedication to the subject, it will grow, it will be dominance.

356
00:27:41,800 --> 00:27:43,920
Yeah, exactly.

357
00:27:43,920 --> 00:27:52,240
But yeah, the topic of adoption of wallet providers, this is probably something that

358
00:27:52,240 --> 00:27:55,960
an entire different episode can be dedicated to because it's certainly somewhere in the

359
00:27:55,960 --> 00:27:56,960
middle, right?

360
00:27:56,960 --> 00:28:02,640
It's not there yet, absolutely not there until you have your parents and grandparents grabbing

361
00:28:02,640 --> 00:28:07,720
the phone and easily navigating through all the complexities of these current interfaces

362
00:28:07,720 --> 00:28:14,320
to send a transaction somewhere similar to how they do with banking providers.

363
00:28:14,320 --> 00:28:15,520
There's not going to be a lot of change.

364
00:28:15,520 --> 00:28:18,280
There's definitely needs to be something in the middle in terms of convenience.

365
00:28:18,280 --> 00:28:24,480
Maybe because of the nake financial or monetary nature of how did this technology start?

366
00:28:24,480 --> 00:28:30,760
This technology didn't start by how can you send the postal card to your friend?

367
00:28:30,760 --> 00:28:36,040
It started by how can you transfer money easily from this point on the globe to the other

368
00:28:36,040 --> 00:28:37,040
side?

369
00:28:37,040 --> 00:28:43,440
So by starting on that nature, because to all users and humans, you just open a very

370
00:28:43,440 --> 00:28:49,840
simple learning app or game app or music app on your phone without any care.

371
00:28:49,840 --> 00:28:53,880
So you open it, you explore it, you give it some try, you make some errors, you learn

372
00:28:53,880 --> 00:28:57,600
it and you get savvy with it within no time.

373
00:28:57,600 --> 00:29:04,400
But when that same user starts to work with something that works with money, bears the

374
00:29:04,400 --> 00:29:11,360
name of wallet or something like that, immediately it totally goes to some other areas of brain

375
00:29:11,360 --> 00:29:15,960
or pink matter in terms of processing.

376
00:29:15,960 --> 00:29:18,240
It's totally processed in different realms.

377
00:29:18,240 --> 00:29:25,720
You're more careful, you're very well focused about what you're doing, you're trying not

378
00:29:25,720 --> 00:29:30,640
to make any mistakes because your brain tells you that if you make mistakes, you lose money.

379
00:29:30,640 --> 00:29:38,080
So this may be one of the biggest barriers of having blockchain technology as a day-to-day

380
00:29:38,080 --> 00:29:43,880
tool for everybody and every average user out there to go to for their daily lives and

381
00:29:43,880 --> 00:29:46,960
tasks and businesses and errands.

382
00:29:46,960 --> 00:29:56,120
In my humble opinion, if blockchain technology and DL technology started on, I'm not going

383
00:29:56,120 --> 00:30:03,120
to say non-financial, but as much as the financial activities on the other side of real-world

384
00:30:03,120 --> 00:30:10,680
use cases such as, for example, tickets, fan clubs, transaction for real estate, so on

385
00:30:10,680 --> 00:30:16,000
and so forth, you can count them infinitely.

386
00:30:16,000 --> 00:30:22,680
If that was as a strong aspect as the monetary or financial aspect of blockchain technology

387
00:30:22,680 --> 00:30:29,800
was at the start, it could have gained a lot more traction and usage in common users out

388
00:30:29,800 --> 00:30:32,800
there, in my humble opinion of course.

389
00:30:32,800 --> 00:30:39,080
But luckily, I guess this is certainly some of the areas where the expansion is happening,

390
00:30:39,080 --> 00:30:43,400
mentioning things like TravelX perhaps in South America.

391
00:30:43,400 --> 00:30:48,080
And things like Lofty AI or Kubeye.

392
00:30:48,080 --> 00:30:56,680
Yes, the museum projects, the national heritage projects, real estate projects, you name it,

393
00:30:56,680 --> 00:30:59,040
the Planet Watch project, everything.

394
00:30:59,040 --> 00:31:07,200
So these give this domain of technology a more natural and day-to-day life sort of image

395
00:31:07,200 --> 00:31:11,560
and people can communicate with that more easily and they're daring about it.

396
00:31:11,560 --> 00:31:18,320
They can try an error about it and that will make the use case and the ground for use case

397
00:31:18,320 --> 00:31:21,880
a lot more vast than it already is.

398
00:31:21,880 --> 00:31:23,220
Yeah, exactly.

399
00:31:23,220 --> 00:31:28,280
So anyone who's saying that there's not enough use cases for blockchain, well, probably it's

400
00:31:28,280 --> 00:31:35,320
simply because this is an area of expansion yet and the tech is being built doesn't necessarily

401
00:31:35,320 --> 00:31:39,560
mean that, as you said, it's just a lot of traction and money and investment went into

402
00:31:39,560 --> 00:31:45,440
this industry and grown around this notion of let's live in a utopian society and replace

403
00:31:45,440 --> 00:31:51,680
everything with code, code is law and basically let's flip the banking system.

404
00:31:51,680 --> 00:31:57,120
But of course, this is not how things are going to happen in real world and these technologies

405
00:31:57,120 --> 00:32:03,840
are certainly useful in scenarios where you might probably not expect it.

406
00:32:03,840 --> 00:32:05,520
Exactly.

407
00:32:05,520 --> 00:32:11,480
And to continue on this, perhaps maybe if you can dive a little bit deeper into some

408
00:32:11,480 --> 00:32:18,880
of the, let's say, major features of the GoPlazable platform, you mentioned modularity and composability.

409
00:32:18,880 --> 00:32:24,940
I wonder whether I assume in this case we're referring to individual features of the platform

410
00:32:24,940 --> 00:32:30,560
that you can also use independently or you can combine them to have a, I guess, for more

411
00:32:30,560 --> 00:32:34,480
feature reach functionality available.

412
00:32:34,480 --> 00:32:39,600
And yeah, I guess after that we'll be very curious to have a quick rundown over the architecture

413
00:32:39,600 --> 00:32:40,600
as well if possible.

414
00:32:40,600 --> 00:32:41,600
Sure.

415
00:32:41,600 --> 00:32:46,800
First of all, all the features are basic elements of any interaction that could happen or occur

416
00:32:46,800 --> 00:32:48,760
in the real world.

417
00:32:48,760 --> 00:32:55,960
You have actors, you have data, actual data that somebody is being transmitted or communicated

418
00:32:55,960 --> 00:33:00,800
and you have the metadata which describes the whole scenario and scene for this interaction

419
00:33:00,800 --> 00:33:01,880
to happen.

420
00:33:01,880 --> 00:33:07,560
So what we did is that we actually are doing as well because it is a continuous development

421
00:33:07,560 --> 00:33:17,720
and continuous effort and it is growing and we are not by any sense near our vision about

422
00:33:17,720 --> 00:33:23,160
how we envision the GoPlazable or plausible protocol to be in the future.

423
00:33:23,160 --> 00:33:25,360
So we are building toward that point.

424
00:33:25,360 --> 00:33:32,720
But the ultimate goal is that you have all of these elements as configurations and as

425
00:33:32,720 --> 00:33:38,800
configurable constraint controllers within a very, very simple user-friendly Web2 format

426
00:33:38,800 --> 00:33:47,240
form that for each one of them the author user decides whether to enable them or disable

427
00:33:47,240 --> 00:33:54,380
them and when enabled some very simple configuration to somehow tell the system as the rules to

428
00:33:54,380 --> 00:33:58,640
tell the system what are the boundaries of this constraint controller.

429
00:33:58,640 --> 00:34:01,160
Let me give you an example.

430
00:34:01,160 --> 00:34:07,560
You as an author are now free to use, for example, to set geofencing controllers for

431
00:34:07,560 --> 00:34:09,480
your proof distribution or not.

432
00:34:09,480 --> 00:34:11,960
When you decide to enable them, it's very simple.

433
00:34:11,960 --> 00:34:14,320
Just enable a switch during your setup form.

434
00:34:14,320 --> 00:34:19,960
There's only one setup form through and through the whole platform to create the new PLaZ.

435
00:34:19,960 --> 00:34:22,760
So it's not a complicated process, three-step process.

436
00:34:22,760 --> 00:34:25,200
You sign, you set up, and you finalize.

437
00:34:25,200 --> 00:34:26,200
That's it.

438
00:34:26,200 --> 00:34:32,520
And within that one form, through the whole application, one Web2 form, you have different

439
00:34:32,520 --> 00:34:33,640
options.

440
00:34:33,640 --> 00:34:35,480
You have steps of setup.

441
00:34:35,480 --> 00:34:40,280
You can ignore them because the only mandatory thing for a PLaZ to be created is the title.

442
00:34:40,280 --> 00:34:44,960
So you can choose for other options to be enabled.

443
00:34:44,960 --> 00:34:48,800
And when you enable them, for example, when you enable the time constraint, you have the

444
00:34:48,800 --> 00:34:56,080
ability to specify the start time and the end time and the time zone for that specific

445
00:34:56,080 --> 00:34:59,960
PLaZ scenario that you are setting up right now.

446
00:34:59,960 --> 00:35:01,680
And same goes for geofencing.

447
00:35:01,680 --> 00:35:07,240
Same goes for enabling the page feature and lots of other features that are very simply

448
00:35:07,240 --> 00:35:08,240
a toggle switch.

449
00:35:08,240 --> 00:35:13,200
They can be enabled and configured very simple Web2 way within a form.

450
00:35:13,200 --> 00:35:19,320
So this is the meaning of modularity and making everything configurable by the user when you

451
00:35:19,320 --> 00:35:23,640
create the scenario, you prove distribution and generations in that area.

452
00:35:23,640 --> 00:35:29,960
And just for the listeners out there, and MJ mentioned PLaZ.

453
00:35:29,960 --> 00:35:34,240
So PLaZ by definition, I suppose, is two things, right?

454
00:35:34,240 --> 00:35:38,280
And I'm looking into the Gitbook, which is very detailed.

455
00:35:38,280 --> 00:35:43,080
I think there are some sections that are going to be covered once you guys progress on the

456
00:35:43,080 --> 00:35:48,480
roadmap, but you can already check it out at goplosible.gitbook.io and it's also available

457
00:35:48,480 --> 00:35:49,480
at goplosible.com.

458
00:35:49,480 --> 00:35:51,480
You can find the documentation there.

459
00:35:51,480 --> 00:35:56,520
So PLaZ is basically an operational unit for the PLaZable protocol.

460
00:35:56,520 --> 00:36:01,320
And essentially, each of those is represented by a smart contract, which I assume user is

461
00:36:01,320 --> 00:36:03,560
basically deploying when he creates the...

462
00:36:03,560 --> 00:36:04,560
It's dynamically.

463
00:36:04,560 --> 00:36:08,440
It's behind every complexity behind the scene.

464
00:36:08,440 --> 00:36:13,560
But actually, when you create a PLaZ, you are creating a smart contract, dynamically

465
00:36:13,560 --> 00:36:18,720
creating a smart contract, which is created by contract to contract calls from the mother

466
00:36:18,720 --> 00:36:20,480
smart contract.

467
00:36:20,480 --> 00:36:26,640
And by using the ABI calls, you control that via the mother smart contract.

468
00:36:26,640 --> 00:36:30,760
You say, for example, for prod operations of those contracts.

469
00:36:30,760 --> 00:36:32,400
And for more...

470
00:36:32,400 --> 00:36:38,640
For interactive proof distribution features, you only interact with that created a smart

471
00:36:38,640 --> 00:36:39,640
contract.

472
00:36:39,640 --> 00:36:45,560
So goplosible as a service provider vendor goes out when you are interacting with that

473
00:36:45,560 --> 00:36:51,240
PLaZ scenario and just have the governing role when you as an author want to do something

474
00:36:51,240 --> 00:36:52,240
with your contract.

475
00:36:52,240 --> 00:36:57,520
We don't interact with the end user interactions with their PLaZ.

476
00:36:57,520 --> 00:37:00,360
So each PLaZ in its own is an application.

477
00:37:00,360 --> 00:37:04,960
You create it on a fly, you set it up, and it is there on chain in order to serve the

478
00:37:04,960 --> 00:37:13,120
APIs to the new user who want to claim their own versions of that PLaZ from chain.

479
00:37:13,120 --> 00:37:19,760
So it is a totally independent application on chain, which is dynamically created for

480
00:37:19,760 --> 00:37:26,960
your specific purposes reflected in your setting up scenario for that specific PLaZ.

481
00:37:26,960 --> 00:37:32,840
And this, I guess, also brings up a point in regards to some, perhaps users may be listening

482
00:37:32,840 --> 00:37:42,160
to this and wondering what is the key distinction between systems like this and let's say a

483
00:37:42,160 --> 00:37:49,920
person going to some sort of, let's say web tool provider that provides this software

484
00:37:49,920 --> 00:37:55,360
as a service platform somewhere and essentially just hosts his entire infrastructure on some

485
00:37:55,360 --> 00:37:58,520
AWS or Google Cloud server.

486
00:37:58,520 --> 00:38:05,040
And it may seem easy, it may be familiar and things like that, but the key distinction

487
00:38:05,040 --> 00:38:12,920
here that MJ just outlined is that the control over the PLaZ that you as a creator essentially

488
00:38:12,920 --> 00:38:20,000
is issuing and then the PLaZ acting as the application is completely decentralized in

489
00:38:20,000 --> 00:38:23,320
a sense that there's no governing control over that entity.

490
00:38:23,320 --> 00:38:25,560
If you deployed it, you own it.

491
00:38:25,560 --> 00:38:29,080
It's a completely different, I guess, paradigm of shipping software.

492
00:38:29,080 --> 00:38:34,520
It's not like an owner of the platform can go ahead and just patch something and essentially

493
00:38:34,520 --> 00:38:40,120
deploy it to the cloud provider and the cloud provider goes down and entire ecosystem of

494
00:38:40,120 --> 00:38:43,960
things that are built on top of goes down or there's an exploit or a hack.

495
00:38:43,960 --> 00:38:48,040
Of course there are hacks and exploit and there's a lot of them in web 3 as well, but

496
00:38:48,040 --> 00:38:52,200
there's a key distinction in regards to how they happen because in case of a smart contract,

497
00:38:52,200 --> 00:38:57,800
for example, there's a lot less mutability in this regard because once you deploy the

498
00:38:57,800 --> 00:39:03,320
code it's not like MJ can just go ahead and change anything he wants in the code.

499
00:39:03,320 --> 00:39:06,440
PLaZ is one of the contracts that are audited and that's also the reason why there's so

500
00:39:06,440 --> 00:39:10,800
much money being made in the auditing industry is because people are paying a lot of money

501
00:39:10,800 --> 00:39:16,760
for people to make extremely detailed audits for a code that potentially isn't going to

502
00:39:16,760 --> 00:39:18,440
change for long periods of time.

503
00:39:18,440 --> 00:39:24,280
There's examples in the Ethereum ecosystem where you could see protocols for decentralized

504
00:39:24,280 --> 00:39:29,440
exchanges, for example, being live for decades basically and some things are being built

505
00:39:29,440 --> 00:39:33,920
on top of them, but it's a different mindset of building apps essentially.

506
00:39:33,920 --> 00:39:39,160
Of course, not talking about decentralization, we had 17 episodes on this podcast already.

507
00:39:39,160 --> 00:39:44,880
Hopefully listeners of this are familiar with the pros and cons of having a centralized

508
00:39:44,880 --> 00:39:51,280
architecture versus a decentralized architecture, but you can name a very good chunk of attack

509
00:39:51,280 --> 00:39:56,440
vectors that simply hosting on a decentralized architecture is going to prevent you from

510
00:39:56,440 --> 00:39:58,000
being worried about.

511
00:39:58,000 --> 00:40:05,880
Once again, you essentially own your own infrastructure completely.

512
00:40:05,880 --> 00:40:13,360
I guess if we could just briefly touch on the architecture as well for a bit more tech

513
00:40:13,360 --> 00:40:18,760
savvy listeners out there who may be interested in, and from my side, I'm also interested

514
00:40:18,760 --> 00:40:24,800
in regards to some tooling, would be very curious to hear some of the feedback in regards

515
00:40:24,800 --> 00:40:32,240
to the tooling that you were using to build these particular smart contracts.

516
00:40:32,240 --> 00:40:38,640
As of today, just a quick recap, in the Algorand ecosystem, we have a large variety of different

517
00:40:38,640 --> 00:40:40,180
transpilers.

518
00:40:40,180 --> 00:40:42,120
Some of them are community-based.

519
00:40:42,120 --> 00:40:45,640
There's still some people, I don't know if any, but there's still probably some very

520
00:40:45,640 --> 00:40:48,120
hardcore people who are doing pure teal.

521
00:40:48,120 --> 00:40:53,440
We have PyTeal, we have Beaker, we have AlgoKit.

522
00:40:53,440 --> 00:40:54,440
One of those dinosaurs.

523
00:40:54,440 --> 00:40:55,440
Just use raw teal.

524
00:40:55,440 --> 00:40:59,600
I have a confession to make here.

525
00:40:59,600 --> 00:41:02,480
I cannot.

526
00:41:02,480 --> 00:41:07,320
Very easily, coding Python, it's a matter of the paradigm of coding.

527
00:41:07,320 --> 00:41:09,040
I'm unable to use PyTeal.

528
00:41:09,040 --> 00:41:10,800
I tried.

529
00:41:10,800 --> 00:41:17,760
Honest confession, even other variations, because when it comes to SAC programming,

530
00:41:17,760 --> 00:41:21,660
raw teal is the best representative of data SAC programming.

531
00:41:21,660 --> 00:41:28,280
Your mind gets around it and comprehends it pretty much easily, and actually it goes with

532
00:41:28,280 --> 00:41:30,800
the flow.

533
00:41:30,800 --> 00:41:34,980
Your mind operates in the SAC programming when you're using raw teal.

534
00:41:34,980 --> 00:41:40,720
But with others, I'm more familiar and comfortable with using OK.

535
00:41:40,720 --> 00:41:47,480
If I want to write complex systems and go OOP about it, yes, let's use those languages.

536
00:41:47,480 --> 00:41:50,280
But raw teal serves me pretty good.

537
00:41:50,280 --> 00:41:51,280
I love it.

538
00:41:51,280 --> 00:41:58,760
I love it so much to the extent that maybe it's some kind of mental projection and self-disability

539
00:41:58,760 --> 00:42:03,160
about it that I cannot use PyTeal and other high-level variations of teal.

540
00:42:03,160 --> 00:42:05,600
But I'm pretty comfortable with raw teal.

541
00:42:05,600 --> 00:42:06,600
Wow.

542
00:42:06,600 --> 00:42:07,600
Yeah.

543
00:42:07,600 --> 00:42:16,240
I suppose you're also dealt with building ABI compatible methods in PyTeal as well?

544
00:42:16,240 --> 00:42:20,080
Yes, completely.

545
00:42:20,080 --> 00:42:27,000
Because the whole thing is working based on contract-to-contract calls, so it is somehow

546
00:42:27,000 --> 00:42:28,880
woven into it.

547
00:42:28,880 --> 00:42:33,240
The system extensively uses the ABI's all over the place.

548
00:42:33,240 --> 00:42:37,960
Since the inception of your contract, you're creating your new contract.

549
00:42:37,960 --> 00:42:42,920
You set it up and you activate it as a scenario.

550
00:42:42,920 --> 00:42:49,240
After that, it's you as the author and your application smart contract out there.

551
00:42:49,240 --> 00:42:56,520
But again, then, all of your interactions are in terms of ABI calls into that contract.

552
00:42:56,520 --> 00:43:04,880
So it is you as some either author or claimer and that application on chain, and you're

553
00:43:04,880 --> 00:43:06,760
interacting with that from client side.

554
00:43:06,760 --> 00:43:10,720
No middle servers, no hubs, no nothing in between.

555
00:43:10,720 --> 00:43:14,840
So direct interactions and those are needed for there as well.

556
00:43:14,840 --> 00:43:23,960
I guess someone needs to make a applause to give a batch of additional certification to

557
00:43:23,960 --> 00:43:29,160
builders in the algorithmic system who build complex platforms in the road here because

558
00:43:29,160 --> 00:43:37,880
it's certainly something that is somewhat of an accomplishment.

559
00:43:37,880 --> 00:43:39,240
Actually I come from those backgrounds.

560
00:43:39,240 --> 00:43:46,640
If you go back 25 years ago, actually many and many of the syntaxes that we used back

561
00:43:46,640 --> 00:43:54,280
then were actually happening in this very, very simple stack-oriented programming style.

562
00:43:54,280 --> 00:44:02,480
So I somehow didn't find maybe for some because tooling landscape has changed massively recently

563
00:44:02,480 --> 00:44:07,080
and most recently by the rise of AI.

564
00:44:07,080 --> 00:44:08,960
It's totally different paradigm.

565
00:44:08,960 --> 00:44:16,800
I totally agree that my mindset may not match the new very young developers who are starting

566
00:44:16,800 --> 00:44:23,120
from very, very young ages right now because yes, you need to cope with your available

567
00:44:23,120 --> 00:44:24,520
tool set around you.

568
00:44:24,520 --> 00:44:29,560
When you're coming from age of axe and hammer, you are more comfortable with axe and hammer.

569
00:44:29,560 --> 00:44:35,880
But when you advance to the age of chainsaws and drills and everything, you advance your

570
00:44:35,880 --> 00:44:38,760
mindset in order to be able to use them.

571
00:44:38,760 --> 00:44:45,400
But it never hurts even for those that are using the higher level languages, tool sets,

572
00:44:45,400 --> 00:44:46,400
whatever.

573
00:44:46,400 --> 00:44:52,320
It never hurts to understand what's going on the knees, especially if you are an engineer

574
00:44:52,320 --> 00:44:54,720
trying to create a system.

575
00:44:54,720 --> 00:45:01,480
I'm not saying being able to work with that or write code, complex code in raw teal, but

576
00:45:01,480 --> 00:45:08,720
being able to read teal and understand what is going on without even needing to decide

577
00:45:08,720 --> 00:45:14,000
to disassemble it, you just read the whole context as okay, it does this, it does this

578
00:45:14,000 --> 00:45:16,400
and it checks this and it checks that.

579
00:45:16,400 --> 00:45:20,920
This much is totally recommended for everyone, even if you're not using that.

580
00:45:20,920 --> 00:45:21,920
Yeah, exactly.

581
00:45:21,920 --> 00:45:22,920
I totally agree with you.

582
00:45:22,920 --> 00:45:28,360
I guess this is also one of the big hurdles in general if you look into Ethereum is often

583
00:45:28,360 --> 00:45:33,480
brought up as an example of that because they also had the same evolution in terms of languages.

584
00:45:33,480 --> 00:45:40,960
Algorand is still in comparison, I would say, in early ages in terms of improvements in

585
00:45:40,960 --> 00:45:42,920
the tooling and things like that.

586
00:45:42,920 --> 00:45:49,240
It's definitely evolving very rapidly, but Ethereum also had a very similar non-structured

587
00:45:49,240 --> 00:45:56,400
bytecode-like language where that essentially was migrated into Solidity and then on top

588
00:45:56,400 --> 00:46:01,120
of Solidity, you're also now having more dynamic variations around it.

589
00:46:01,120 --> 00:46:08,760
I guess just to bring also the point that first of all, I completely agree with you.

590
00:46:08,760 --> 00:46:14,140
There's a lot of very prominent builders in the Algorand ecosystem who are very paramount

591
00:46:14,140 --> 00:46:19,000
on advocating for not hiding AVM complexity, basically.

592
00:46:19,000 --> 00:46:24,240
Not to say that AVM is complex, like any complex system is complex to the point until we understand

593
00:46:24,240 --> 00:46:27,400
the system.

594
00:46:27,400 --> 00:46:32,600
Since we are talking about blockchains and in most cases, the application builder are

595
00:46:32,600 --> 00:46:37,920
for financial sector, systems that are built for financial sector never should compromise

596
00:46:37,920 --> 00:46:41,000
on consistency.

597
00:46:41,000 --> 00:46:44,920
If you're not compromising on consistency, it means it has to be extremely secure.

598
00:46:44,920 --> 00:46:50,180
If it is extremely secure, it means that you probably should understand the stack on which

599
00:46:50,180 --> 00:46:55,000
you're building to a very lower level extent, which in case of Algorand implies being able

600
00:46:55,000 --> 00:47:01,360
to at least understand the syntax of Teal, understand cases where perhaps building something

601
00:47:01,360 --> 00:47:06,480
is beneficial to be done in Teal versus more higher level abstractions because anytime

602
00:47:06,480 --> 00:47:14,160
you go higher level, it means your computer has to make N-hoops from the code that you're

603
00:47:14,160 --> 00:47:18,520
typing that is structured to convenient to understand perhaps with the modern paradigms

604
00:47:18,520 --> 00:47:24,400
into this that may seem a bit overwhelming some people, but once again, this is potentially

605
00:47:24,400 --> 00:47:32,360
something that can just make your understanding of how secure the platform is and maybe identify

606
00:47:32,360 --> 00:47:33,360
attack vectors.

607
00:47:33,360 --> 00:47:38,560
Then another point towards raw Teal and maybe for systems that are doing transpilation to

608
00:47:38,560 --> 00:47:44,080
Teal, the more structured your raw Teal code is probably, the easier it will be for you.

609
00:47:44,080 --> 00:47:48,840
You're also going to make the life of people who are doing audits a little bit easier because

610
00:47:48,840 --> 00:47:53,240
a lot of those processes, they also involve reading actual Teal code.

611
00:47:53,240 --> 00:47:59,080
It's not just like you pay $100,000 and they just look at your Pytiel code and say, oh,

612
00:47:59,080 --> 00:48:00,080
it's all great.

613
00:48:00,080 --> 00:48:01,840
Now you can go shift to main net.

614
00:48:01,840 --> 00:48:03,240
They will inspect it very thoroughly.

615
00:48:03,240 --> 00:48:08,840
They'll look into the raw Teal and sometimes it also matters that the code is structured

616
00:48:08,840 --> 00:48:10,760
that is in a very readable format.

617
00:48:10,760 --> 00:48:15,720
It's not just the higher level abstractions that you build, but the lower level stuff

618
00:48:15,720 --> 00:48:21,200
that is transpiled or built directly has to be potentially easily readable and maintained

619
00:48:21,200 --> 00:48:22,200
in that regard.

620
00:48:22,200 --> 00:48:31,240
I can't speak much about the stuff on the AlgoKit side, but I'm always inspired by

621
00:48:31,240 --> 00:48:32,240
folks in the industry.

622
00:48:32,240 --> 00:48:38,720
If you're familiar with Chris Latner, the guy behind LLVM, Swift, and now he's doing

623
00:48:38,720 --> 00:48:43,480
this awesome thing with Modular and the module language.

624
00:48:43,480 --> 00:48:48,760
I think this is potentially something that the paradigm, for example, like in Swift,

625
00:48:48,760 --> 00:48:52,120
the higher level looks like a very sort of...

626
00:48:52,120 --> 00:48:55,280
It seems like it indeed does have a lot of syntactic sugar, right?

627
00:48:55,280 --> 00:48:57,880
It's optimized for iOS, micro-OS development.

628
00:48:57,880 --> 00:49:03,360
But then if you're a hard-core engineer, you can always sort of have some guardrails, disable

629
00:49:03,360 --> 00:49:09,880
them and just have a relatively low level access to C-like primitives and things like

630
00:49:09,880 --> 00:49:10,880
that.

631
00:49:10,880 --> 00:49:18,120
I feel like this might be the sweet spot eventually if Algorand matures enough to satisfy hardcore

632
00:49:18,120 --> 00:49:25,320
users in the community who are paramount on the fact that AVM has to be understood and

633
00:49:25,320 --> 00:49:29,800
the complexity which shouldn't be hidden, it should be simplified versus people coming

634
00:49:29,800 --> 00:49:35,720
from other ecosystems or web too who are building basically simple things and just starting

635
00:49:35,720 --> 00:49:38,600
to learn these.

636
00:49:38,600 --> 00:49:43,920
That range of flexibility is potentially something that if done right could be a great boost

637
00:49:43,920 --> 00:49:46,320
overall for the adoption.

638
00:49:46,320 --> 00:49:48,400
But well, we'll see.

639
00:49:48,400 --> 00:49:49,400
The future is still ahead.

640
00:49:49,400 --> 00:49:50,400
So it's...

641
00:49:50,400 --> 00:50:00,240
Let's hope that it goes this way and it proceeds as it started and getting pace more and more

642
00:50:00,240 --> 00:50:03,200
and more each and every day.

643
00:50:03,200 --> 00:50:08,600
And I guess I'll just try to outline it from my understanding of...

644
00:50:08,600 --> 00:50:14,720
I was looking and doing some minor research on the documentation you have from the Go

645
00:50:14,720 --> 00:50:21,080
plausible, so for people I guess interested in the way...

646
00:50:21,080 --> 00:50:24,320
First of all, you also mentioned Teal...

647
00:50:24,320 --> 00:50:28,720
Oh, okay, it's number eight, sorry.

648
00:50:28,720 --> 00:50:32,360
On the page with the architecture description it says Teal B, I thought it's B. And I was

649
00:50:32,360 --> 00:50:34,240
like, wait, is that like some sort of...

650
00:50:34,240 --> 00:50:36,480
When you work for it, it's number...

651
00:50:36,480 --> 00:50:38,200
It's Teal, okay, okay, okay.

652
00:50:38,200 --> 00:50:39,840
Okay, yeah, that explains it then.

653
00:50:39,840 --> 00:50:46,880
So I suppose there are sort of three main primitives that you can look at if you're

654
00:50:46,880 --> 00:50:48,600
just strictly...

655
00:50:48,600 --> 00:50:52,760
And once again, we're strictly talking about the smart contract architecture.

656
00:50:52,760 --> 00:50:55,840
So we have the parent smart contract, right?

657
00:50:55,840 --> 00:51:04,080
I guess it's some sort of registry that essentially is a starting point once you want to create

658
00:51:04,080 --> 00:51:06,600
your own pull-up.

659
00:51:06,600 --> 00:51:12,000
And I assume this is also made so that you are not wasting the minimum balance requirements

660
00:51:12,000 --> 00:51:14,840
in the wallets of the users, right?

661
00:51:14,840 --> 00:51:19,880
And so that you can also have sort of a single track record to see all of the main interactions

662
00:51:19,880 --> 00:51:21,520
with the parent.

663
00:51:21,520 --> 00:51:26,520
Because if you were to do it from the user's wallet, right, that would get a bit inconvenient.

664
00:51:26,520 --> 00:51:31,880
User basically in this case has a lot of complexity, his minimum balance rises and things like

665
00:51:31,880 --> 00:51:32,880
that.

666
00:51:32,880 --> 00:51:39,080
So you come in to the platform, you interact with the parent smart contract, then you're

667
00:51:39,080 --> 00:51:40,560
firstly deploying it.

668
00:51:40,560 --> 00:51:44,560
I assume it's also used for managing fees and things like that.

669
00:51:44,560 --> 00:51:55,280
And this is probably the only registry contract that managed by GoPlosable as a platform in

670
00:51:55,280 --> 00:51:56,280
that regard.

671
00:51:56,280 --> 00:52:05,040
So by managing it means that we just can update it because all of the update, for example,

672
00:52:05,040 --> 00:52:12,960
we started with till version 6 and upgraded it to till version 7 and finally till version

673
00:52:12,960 --> 00:52:13,960
8.

674
00:52:13,960 --> 00:52:18,880
So all of the features and functionalities added during these upgrades, they are reflected

675
00:52:18,880 --> 00:52:24,160
mostly separately on child smart contracts and parent smart contracts.

676
00:52:24,160 --> 00:52:29,300
So parent smart contract is getting updates occasionally based on the upgrades that are

677
00:52:29,300 --> 00:52:32,880
available from the AVM itself.

678
00:52:32,880 --> 00:52:43,040
And then we have, well, ABI, right, the ARC4 specification and using ABI you have the Plos

679
00:52:43,040 --> 00:52:46,720
entities, which are the smart contracts that are created by the parent entity.

680
00:52:46,720 --> 00:52:52,000
So now Plos is once again something that you as a user of GoPlosable own.

681
00:52:52,000 --> 00:52:59,280
Basically this is what controls different metadata that you can assign to this Plos

682
00:52:59,280 --> 00:53:05,160
and this is what your users of your Plos are interacting with when they are essentially

683
00:53:05,160 --> 00:53:06,600
doing the claims.

684
00:53:06,600 --> 00:53:12,960
And the claim in this regard is represented by an Algorand standard ASA, right, an NFT.

685
00:53:12,960 --> 00:53:13,960
For now, yes.

686
00:53:13,960 --> 00:53:14,960
For now, yes.

687
00:53:14,960 --> 00:53:22,800
So the hopes are that by rise of non-ASA NFTs and assets on Algorand, for example, ARC72

688
00:53:22,800 --> 00:53:30,320
type of assets on Algorand and by supporting them with GoPlosable, we can open a whole

689
00:53:30,320 --> 00:53:34,920
new horizon for new opportunities and implementation scenarios.

690
00:53:34,920 --> 00:53:43,760
So for now, they are Algorand standard assets, but it will somehow get elevated and get improved

691
00:53:43,760 --> 00:53:50,000
by time and we will be enjoying lots of new opportunities by rise of those kind of non-ASA

692
00:53:50,000 --> 00:53:52,480
NFTs and tokens.

693
00:53:52,480 --> 00:53:53,480
Awesome.

694
00:53:53,480 --> 00:54:01,320
And basically, yeah, so the standard assets is something you get after you deal with the

695
00:54:01,320 --> 00:54:07,040
claim and essentially this is your digital certificate in some sense for people who are

696
00:54:07,040 --> 00:54:13,960
familiar with, for example, systems like Udemy or Coursera, you usually get the certification

697
00:54:13,960 --> 00:54:14,960
at the end.

698
00:54:14,960 --> 00:54:21,040
They also have a, in some cases, it's a centralized sort of record where you could see that on

699
00:54:21,040 --> 00:54:23,880
this date, this person received this and this.

700
00:54:23,880 --> 00:54:24,880
So this entity...

701
00:54:24,880 --> 00:54:25,880
Completely decentralized.

702
00:54:25,880 --> 00:54:30,320
The only difference is here it is decentralized.

703
00:54:30,320 --> 00:54:36,400
And one other thing I might add, the difference between these NFTs or ASAs or tokens being

704
00:54:36,400 --> 00:54:43,080
transferred and the normal, for example, NFTs that you transfer from your wallet is a process

705
00:54:43,080 --> 00:54:50,280
that the declaimer and the user going through in order to being eligible to being sent one

706
00:54:50,280 --> 00:54:52,240
of these certificates.

707
00:54:52,240 --> 00:55:00,600
All of those processes and interactions are available on chain and you know about usability

708
00:55:00,600 --> 00:55:07,120
of the state proofs in the future when they are totally routinely used as a day to day

709
00:55:07,120 --> 00:55:13,560
technology from AVM, we have the opportunity of creating the zero knowledge proofs for

710
00:55:13,560 --> 00:55:15,000
every and each one of them.

711
00:55:15,000 --> 00:55:18,840
And without, for example, exposing your...

712
00:55:18,840 --> 00:55:19,840
Personally identified information.

713
00:55:19,840 --> 00:55:20,840
Exactly.

714
00:55:20,840 --> 00:55:27,800
You get a certificate from, for example, your learning or educational institution and without

715
00:55:27,800 --> 00:55:34,280
even going that NFT or showing the content of that NFT, you can prove that, okay, I received

716
00:55:34,280 --> 00:55:39,240
that NFT by just sending an estate proof and getting it verified on the other side.

717
00:55:39,240 --> 00:55:44,660
So this is the ultimate vision beside going multi-chain for Go Plausible.

718
00:55:44,660 --> 00:55:51,240
This is the last piece of the puzzle, which makes it the real and feasible proof of anything

719
00:55:51,240 --> 00:55:52,960
protocol.

720
00:55:52,960 --> 00:56:03,240
So by using that technology, we're just waiting for it to get matured and get within the tooling

721
00:56:03,240 --> 00:56:05,560
ecosystem of the algorithm.

722
00:56:05,560 --> 00:56:09,160
And after that, sky would be the limit.

723
00:56:09,160 --> 00:56:15,400
You can do anything and you can just prove it without exposing or disclosing anything

724
00:56:15,400 --> 00:56:20,760
and that would make the perfect ground in order to nurture some such solutions.

725
00:56:20,760 --> 00:56:30,080
Exactly, and I guess we live in very crazy and unprecedented times, but that makes me

726
00:56:30,080 --> 00:56:35,120
hope that sometime in the future, governments are going to be a bit more privacy aware in

727
00:56:35,120 --> 00:56:39,960
certain regards and maybe zero knowledge is going to be the foundation for things like

728
00:56:39,960 --> 00:56:46,520
verifying your nationality or verifying your digital identity without actually exposing

729
00:56:46,520 --> 00:56:51,280
a lot of personally identifiable information out there because privacy has always been

730
00:56:51,280 --> 00:56:57,400
important and it's always going to be important, but the times are showing that there's a

731
00:56:57,400 --> 00:57:03,960
lot of struggle all over the world in regards to privacy versus non-privacy systems.

732
00:57:03,960 --> 00:57:11,320
For sure, and you're giving out, if you consider your daily lives, you're giving out treasures

733
00:57:11,320 --> 00:57:16,840
of information on daily basis, whether it's on your identity, properties, everything,

734
00:57:16,840 --> 00:57:23,840
you name it, you're just somehow bleeding information out to those centralized services

735
00:57:23,840 --> 00:57:25,920
that you use on daily basis.

736
00:57:25,920 --> 00:57:33,320
So why not stopping all that information flow and make the user in control and somehow give

737
00:57:33,320 --> 00:57:39,880
this ability to user that without, for example, I'm just mentioning a very extreme case, without

738
00:57:39,880 --> 00:57:47,600
sending your actual biometric information into every and each service that you encounter

739
00:57:47,600 --> 00:57:54,520
with, you can somehow send a proof of it that, okay, I own this biometrics of this identity

740
00:57:54,520 --> 00:58:01,560
without exposing that biometrics by itself, for example, by using a cold pad.

741
00:58:01,560 --> 00:58:04,800
And these are not fringe technologies.

742
00:58:04,800 --> 00:58:10,000
Currently they have been in use with intelligence organizations for more than a decade right

743
00:58:10,000 --> 00:58:11,000
now.

744
00:58:11,000 --> 00:58:15,000
For example, the one I just named the cold pad, the cold pad is for biometrics without

745
00:58:15,000 --> 00:58:17,440
exposing biometrics.

746
00:58:17,440 --> 00:58:22,940
That has been in use, not using the same technology as zero knowledge proof, but using some sort

747
00:58:22,940 --> 00:58:29,220
of technologies, they are somehow known to those who care for privacy, care for security

748
00:58:29,220 --> 00:58:31,240
to some critical extent.

749
00:58:31,240 --> 00:58:38,280
So by making it global in terms of usage and accessible to everyone actually around us,

750
00:58:38,280 --> 00:58:45,120
this technologies has the potential to actually gain the future of any kind of operation and

751
00:58:45,120 --> 00:58:48,040
interaction that is happening digitally.

752
00:58:48,040 --> 00:58:54,240
Because yes, when you have the option of not disclosing your vital information or critical

753
00:58:54,240 --> 00:58:56,760
information, you will choose it for sure.

754
00:58:56,760 --> 00:59:00,760
When you have the option of closing the door to your house, you close it.

755
00:59:00,760 --> 00:59:04,400
You have a door, you keep it closed, you don't open it.

756
00:59:04,400 --> 00:59:05,400
Yeah, exactly.

757
00:59:05,400 --> 00:59:11,720
And I guess, yeah, like the comfort is usually the big enemy of privacy.

758
00:59:11,720 --> 00:59:19,720
The moment when privacy will become the second when privacy will become a bit more, I guess,

759
00:59:19,720 --> 00:59:21,600
accessible and easier to use.

760
00:59:21,600 --> 00:59:26,200
That's when people will just stop having issues with adopting these protocols and systems.

761
00:59:26,200 --> 00:59:33,640
But just to ask a few brief questions on the architecture as well, I just find it very

762
00:59:33,640 --> 00:59:35,320
interesting.

763
00:59:35,320 --> 00:59:39,400
It's probably my favorite part of the episode usually when we do discussions specifically

764
00:59:39,400 --> 00:59:40,880
on the architecture and things like that.

765
00:59:40,880 --> 00:59:47,640
But I assume that majority of the core business logic is completely on chain.

766
00:59:47,640 --> 00:59:52,640
You have the front end, which I assume is in most interactions, it's just interactions

767
00:59:52,640 --> 00:59:55,200
with the contracts on chain.

768
00:59:55,200 --> 01:00:03,000
But are there any particular features of functionality that still rely on some off-chain computation?

769
01:00:03,000 --> 01:00:06,240
And if yes, can you just briefly touch on that?

770
01:00:06,240 --> 01:00:16,200
The front end and some utility services are hosted as a cloudflare serverless modules.

771
01:00:16,200 --> 01:00:24,320
So they are very, very much distributed and distributed beside some core internet services.

772
01:00:24,320 --> 01:00:30,960
So they are highly improbable to go down or to be somewhat canceled or stopped or something

773
01:00:30,960 --> 01:00:31,960
like that.

774
01:00:31,960 --> 01:00:39,560
Because if they go down because of the architecture and the majority of the nodes and services

775
01:00:39,560 --> 01:00:44,560
that Algorand relies on, we can make sure that Algorand will suffer as well.

776
01:00:44,560 --> 01:00:52,480
So those very fundamental infrastructural services, such as, for example, the 1111 DNS

777
01:00:52,480 --> 01:00:56,880
by cloudflare, if that goes down, 40% of internet goes down.

778
01:00:56,880 --> 01:00:59,000
So that would be a catastrophe.

779
01:00:59,000 --> 01:01:03,320
And during catastrophes, no one counts how many services go down.

780
01:01:03,320 --> 01:01:08,800
But aside from those global catastrophes that are highly improbable to happen within the

781
01:01:08,800 --> 01:01:18,520
considerations of those services, we needed to because the decentralized hosting services

782
01:01:18,520 --> 01:01:25,600
and content delivery services, they are not to the extent reliable that we needed for

783
01:01:25,600 --> 01:01:27,680
this service to be distributed.

784
01:01:27,680 --> 01:01:32,280
But serverless modules from cloudflare, they are distributed to the edge.

785
01:01:32,280 --> 01:01:36,620
They are actually processed on the edge instead of being on a centralized place.

786
01:01:36,620 --> 01:01:46,240
So if you're living on Montana, your function alongside with your static content are being

787
01:01:46,240 --> 01:01:51,880
processed and accessed from your nearest ISP in your region, Montana.

788
01:01:51,880 --> 01:01:56,920
So they are not a call from a server from half a way around the world.

789
01:01:56,920 --> 01:02:04,160
This single property had us use the cloudflare services in order to provide for content delivery

790
01:02:04,160 --> 01:02:08,480
and also some utility functions, for example, logging.

791
01:02:08,480 --> 01:02:12,440
Logging of the requests as pure as they come from the browsers.

792
01:02:12,440 --> 01:02:18,280
It is a necessary part of the story because we need to keep an eye on some sort of security

793
01:02:18,280 --> 01:02:26,920
aspect of system, for example, avoiding some attack vectors and so on and so forth.

794
01:02:26,920 --> 01:02:28,460
Logging, something like that.

795
01:02:28,460 --> 01:02:35,640
These kind of utility services, they are provided as serverless functions and modules or as

796
01:02:35,640 --> 01:02:38,240
they call it on cloudflare workers.

797
01:02:38,240 --> 01:02:45,320
Serverless workers are the third part of the system, but they are not anywhere when you

798
01:02:45,320 --> 01:02:53,420
as a claimer interact with your, with on-chain smart contracts using your front end.

799
01:02:53,420 --> 01:02:56,640
It is all you, your wallet and algorithm blockchain.

800
01:02:56,640 --> 01:03:01,200
When you're claiming something and only when you're creating something or interacting

801
01:03:01,200 --> 01:03:06,460
as an author, those logging and everything else located as serverless functions kicking

802
01:03:06,460 --> 01:03:10,760
the place in order to keep a track of everything going on in the system.

803
01:03:10,760 --> 01:03:12,920
I see.

804
01:03:12,920 --> 01:03:21,600
Things like, I suppose, geofencing is all primarily thanks to the serverless on the

805
01:03:21,600 --> 01:03:22,600
cloudflare.

806
01:03:22,600 --> 01:03:23,600
Yes.

807
01:03:23,600 --> 01:03:27,280
Essentially, just, I suppose, three major parts, right?

808
01:03:27,280 --> 01:03:36,000
The front end, geofencing done through cloudflare and edge compute and serverless and we have

809
01:03:36,000 --> 01:03:39,000
these smart contracts, which are all left completely on chain, basically.

810
01:03:39,000 --> 01:03:41,600
The rules sets are part of a smart contract.

811
01:03:41,600 --> 01:03:43,920
They got a sword on a smart contract.

812
01:03:43,920 --> 01:03:45,320
So you cannot change them.

813
01:03:45,320 --> 01:03:53,960
For example, you cannot change your geofencing schema and your rules toward that.

814
01:03:53,960 --> 01:04:02,120
But implementation and how, for obvious reasons, you cannot, you know, store a large amount

815
01:04:02,120 --> 01:04:04,200
of arbitrary data on chain.

816
01:04:04,200 --> 01:04:10,880
So we just use some these serverless workers in order to do that off-chain computation

817
01:04:10,880 --> 01:04:19,120
aspect of the operation and just keep the critical and very vital and vital to be immutable

818
01:04:19,120 --> 01:04:27,680
and vital to be kept forever part of information on chain to maintain the balance between what

819
01:04:27,680 --> 01:04:32,320
is needed to be processed and what is needed to be stored on chain.

820
01:04:32,320 --> 01:04:34,320
Exactly.

821
01:04:34,320 --> 01:04:42,120
And I assume this also implies comparing the same infrastructure that you would have maintained

822
01:04:42,120 --> 01:04:45,320
if you were to build this on a cloud hosting provider.

823
01:04:45,320 --> 01:04:52,520
I assume the hosting infrastructure fees is significantly...

824
01:04:52,520 --> 01:04:55,120
Actually the fees about, you know...

825
01:04:55,120 --> 01:04:57,800
Do you run your own node, actually?

826
01:04:57,800 --> 01:04:59,520
Do you guys run your own?

827
01:04:59,520 --> 01:05:00,520
No, no, no.

828
01:05:00,520 --> 01:05:05,920
So this is a redundant, failover redundant and failover structure between the node that

829
01:05:05,920 --> 01:05:10,800
I locally host on my DigitalOcean servers and also the quick node.

830
01:05:10,800 --> 01:05:14,280
The quick node, here's a big shout out to those guys.

831
01:05:14,280 --> 01:05:20,300
Very close collaborations and very, very good service I just experienced from them.

832
01:05:20,300 --> 01:05:23,400
So very happy with that.

833
01:05:23,400 --> 01:05:28,280
Right again, because you always have that last connection and that last connectivity

834
01:05:28,280 --> 01:05:30,640
to tend them to be on your turf.

835
01:05:30,640 --> 01:05:34,520
So I couldn't somehow avoid that mindset.

836
01:05:34,520 --> 01:05:41,880
And that failover structure, my local nodes are mainly used for developments and everything

837
01:05:41,880 --> 01:05:48,360
locally but they kick in automatically whenever or by any reason the quick node service got

838
01:05:48,360 --> 01:05:56,280
disconnected or a problem, they kick in automatically so user will not see or face any kind of shortcoming

839
01:05:56,280 --> 01:05:58,360
or disconnection in the service.

840
01:05:58,360 --> 01:06:01,160
I see, I see.

841
01:06:01,160 --> 01:06:08,680
And perhaps to continue on, you know, if you can also briefly just touch on what were sort

842
01:06:08,680 --> 01:06:15,040
of the, I would say the main challenges you had during the implementation and any perhaps

843
01:06:15,040 --> 01:06:18,040
interesting ways in how you test GoPosable?

844
01:06:18,040 --> 01:06:19,880
Yeah, for sure.

845
01:06:19,880 --> 01:06:25,000
The main challenge is, you know, what is obvious to everybody on the main.

846
01:06:25,000 --> 01:06:30,720
I think a little bit of wrong time because when I started to contribute, I was still

847
01:06:30,720 --> 01:06:40,280
living in my own country, which is a little bit restricted in any sense you can call.

848
01:06:40,280 --> 01:06:44,240
And also, we were in the list of embargoed countries.

849
01:06:44,240 --> 01:06:46,480
I'm originally Persian.

850
01:06:46,480 --> 01:06:52,760
But for Algorand and in order to be able to openly and freely contribute to Algorand,

851
01:06:52,760 --> 01:06:58,400
I just migrated to Turkey two years ago and I'm living in Turkey since then.

852
01:06:58,400 --> 01:07:01,440
But I think there was a little bit of time mismatch.

853
01:07:01,440 --> 01:07:08,320
So I missed the fortune train by a little bit because now we are living in a bearish

854
01:07:08,320 --> 01:07:10,400
market, very harsh time.

855
01:07:10,400 --> 01:07:18,520
And actually, right now, the only problem we have is the actual fuel for this progress,

856
01:07:18,520 --> 01:07:24,040
which was plenty available even one year, one year and a half ago, but now it is not

857
01:07:24,040 --> 01:07:25,120
that time.

858
01:07:25,120 --> 01:07:31,280
But for that, we are going to in order to face that challenge, the only solution that

859
01:07:31,280 --> 01:07:36,280
we found was that not to limit ourselves to one community and one ecosystem because this

860
01:07:36,280 --> 01:07:41,760
is a globally usable system and we try to put everything complex in behind the scenes

861
01:07:41,760 --> 01:07:50,480
and just show a very familiar Web2 style of communication and user-ship to our daily users.

862
01:07:50,480 --> 01:07:57,360
So hopes are by going multi-chain and going a little bit more specific on more day-to-day

863
01:07:57,360 --> 01:08:03,640
usages because right now it is some kind of author should know what they're preparing

864
01:08:03,640 --> 01:08:10,440
the plus for, but some kind of atomic use cases, one-click creation of some use case,

865
01:08:10,440 --> 01:08:19,080
for example, those use cases along with going multi-chain are our strategy and hope to work

866
01:08:19,080 --> 01:08:27,480
getting out of this somehow restrictive era of non-nurturing era that we are facing.

867
01:08:27,480 --> 01:08:33,960
And for sure, the policies coming from US policymakers is not helping these harsh times

868
01:08:33,960 --> 01:08:41,560
and by much, but hopes are and when you listen to Congress congressional hearings, the bills

869
01:08:41,560 --> 01:08:47,840
are being proposed and everything, the progress is on the pace and they're getting the feeling

870
01:08:47,840 --> 01:08:53,260
of okay, this is not just yet another technology popping up from everywhere that trying to

871
01:08:53,260 --> 01:08:54,380
change the world.

872
01:08:54,380 --> 01:09:00,760
This is something essential to the future and maybe we need to think twice about it,

873
01:09:00,760 --> 01:09:05,200
think a little bit deeper about it rather than just give it to our consultants and ask

874
01:09:05,200 --> 01:09:06,480
for their opinion.

875
01:09:06,480 --> 01:09:08,720
It is happening.

876
01:09:08,720 --> 01:09:14,760
You just listen to those hearings, the senators, the Congress people, the way they talk about

877
01:09:14,760 --> 01:09:16,680
the things is not superficial anymore.

878
01:09:16,680 --> 01:09:21,480
When they're talking now, it means that, okay, they read something at least a large amount

879
01:09:21,480 --> 01:09:26,600
of information right now, but a year ago, it was all superficial, just naming some acronyms

880
01:09:26,600 --> 01:09:28,160
and get along with it.

881
01:09:28,160 --> 01:09:29,400
Now it is very good.

882
01:09:29,400 --> 01:09:32,640
So progress, progress is always good.

883
01:09:32,640 --> 01:09:37,040
And I mean, I don't think there's anything wrong with going multi-chain and at all, even

884
01:09:37,040 --> 01:09:41,880
Silvio himself was mentioning that there's going to be N chains that will eventually

885
01:09:41,880 --> 01:09:42,880
endure.

886
01:09:42,880 --> 01:09:47,800
Each of them will have their own unique edge cases and will serve its individual functionality

887
01:09:47,800 --> 01:09:51,520
and it's all about interoperability basically.

888
01:09:51,520 --> 01:09:56,440
I guess Algorand's strongest point is micro payments, extremely fast finality.

889
01:09:56,440 --> 01:10:02,480
You can essentially rely on this because it scales to a large set of people and there's

890
01:10:02,480 --> 01:10:07,960
a lot of unique things that could be built around the fact that the finality is so short

891
01:10:07,960 --> 01:10:12,640
essentially, but it doesn't necessarily mean that it's the only chain that essentially

892
01:10:12,640 --> 01:10:18,360
should endure and survive and it should capture the entire market.

893
01:10:18,360 --> 01:10:20,440
That's why Algorand has state pros.

894
01:10:20,440 --> 01:10:21,440
Right?

895
01:10:21,440 --> 01:10:22,440
Exactly.

896
01:10:22,440 --> 01:10:26,920
It's still a very undervalued piece of tech because well, we don't live in future where

897
01:10:26,920 --> 01:10:29,960
quantum computers attack everyone every day.

898
01:10:29,960 --> 01:10:35,360
But the fact that it already exists and it's sort of this beacon of potential interoperability

899
01:10:35,360 --> 01:10:43,340
is really telling about how Algorand tries to foresee the events that can potentially

900
01:10:43,340 --> 01:10:48,400
come in near or near distant future basically.

901
01:10:48,400 --> 01:10:50,520
You mentioned state proofs.

902
01:10:50,520 --> 01:10:53,400
Something you can expand on this just briefly.

903
01:10:53,400 --> 01:11:01,240
Actually, now that I have this opportunity to ask for something very publicly, it would

904
01:11:01,240 --> 01:11:09,080
be very much appreciated if this line of work and implementation get a little bit more acceleration

905
01:11:09,080 --> 01:11:16,160
because in my humble opinion, this is one of the things that can persuade and actually

906
01:11:16,160 --> 01:11:26,080
push other non-web3 policymakers or decision-makers to think twice about usages and use case of

907
01:11:26,080 --> 01:11:33,120
this technology and give it a more serious thought and more serious look and assessment.

908
01:11:33,120 --> 01:11:42,280
I think the sooner we can get the state proofs into our daily developer and daily user routines

909
01:11:42,280 --> 01:11:51,760
and processes and normal operations, the bigger chance we stand to be recognized as globally

910
01:11:51,760 --> 01:11:58,520
usable technology, not only as some means for some financial systems and so on and so

911
01:11:58,520 --> 01:11:59,520
forth.

912
01:11:59,520 --> 01:12:06,280
A global tool and a global problem-solving platform and solution.

913
01:12:06,280 --> 01:12:08,820
This can help it so much.

914
01:12:08,820 --> 01:12:12,280
This is one of the golden keys in my humble opinion.

915
01:12:12,280 --> 01:12:17,520
Again, maybe many people somewhat disagree with me, but I think this is one of the greatest

916
01:12:17,520 --> 01:12:23,400
vectors, one of our power levers that we can count on in order to achieve to that point

917
01:12:23,400 --> 01:12:31,060
without any descriptive efforts because right now we have to explain why this is good.

918
01:12:31,060 --> 01:12:32,060
It is immutable.

919
01:12:32,060 --> 01:12:33,060
It is fast.

920
01:12:33,060 --> 01:12:40,320
It is proven you're able to have your history intact for your transactions and so on and

921
01:12:40,320 --> 01:12:41,800
so forth, lots of properties.

922
01:12:41,800 --> 01:12:49,920
We need to describe them, but with zero-knowledge proofs implemented in our daily operations

923
01:12:49,920 --> 01:12:59,760
and daily real-life and real-world errands, I think that that's a landscape changer.

924
01:12:59,760 --> 01:13:05,200
We can see it clearly that, okay, this technology doesn't have a peer in traditional world

925
01:13:05,200 --> 01:13:08,000
and we need to employ this one.

926
01:13:08,000 --> 01:13:09,480
We need to give it a chance.

927
01:13:09,480 --> 01:13:11,480
We need to use it.

928
01:13:11,480 --> 01:13:12,480
Exactly.

929
01:13:12,480 --> 01:13:16,080
Yeah, I absolutely agree with you.

930
01:13:16,080 --> 01:13:23,480
It's certainly something that is a great vector for expansion.

931
01:13:23,480 --> 01:13:28,200
After the original announcements on this, I think there's still a lot of work in terms

932
01:13:28,200 --> 01:13:36,920
of general applications of state proofs and perhaps a lot of room for expansion and collaboration

933
01:13:36,920 --> 01:13:39,840
with other ecosystems in this regard.

934
01:13:39,840 --> 01:13:48,920
The biggest issue right now is simply you need to have a nurturing environment for people

935
01:13:48,920 --> 01:13:55,160
to build on a technology, not because it's great, but a lot of ventures, for example,

936
01:13:55,160 --> 01:14:00,720
you wouldn't invest in something that doesn't potentially have a large target audience or

937
01:14:00,720 --> 01:14:07,120
whatever in case of something that promises for a lot of security.

938
01:14:07,120 --> 01:14:11,760
It needs a lot of actual applications in this regard.

939
01:14:11,760 --> 01:14:17,240
Potentially Ethereum, for example, is a big, big, big competition to basically overcome

940
01:14:17,240 --> 01:14:22,880
because the main sentiment that started popping up, and I guess it's common for bear market

941
01:14:22,880 --> 01:14:30,000
in general, is like, okay, I got N dollars invested in me over the past couple of months.

942
01:14:30,000 --> 01:14:33,400
I'm about to choose a blockchain on which I'm going to build.

943
01:14:33,400 --> 01:14:41,560
In most cases, he or she will have to prioritize picking a blockchain that has a lot of market

944
01:14:41,560 --> 01:14:42,560
cap.

945
01:14:42,560 --> 01:14:46,400
Unfortunately, biggest out there is, well, we have Bitcoin.

946
01:14:46,400 --> 01:14:50,360
You can't really do a lot of smart contracts on native Bitcoin layer.

947
01:14:50,360 --> 01:14:52,440
Of course, there are tools that allow you to do it.

948
01:14:52,440 --> 01:14:54,360
I'm not going to get into that discussion.

949
01:14:54,360 --> 01:14:58,720
Then you have Ethereum, and probably Ethereum is currently the biggest one.

950
01:14:58,720 --> 01:15:04,080
If you get on that, you probably get a lot of exposure to the users.

951
01:15:04,080 --> 01:15:05,720
That's the big barrier at the moment.

952
01:15:05,720 --> 01:15:10,440
It's not even coming to discussions over technology these days.

953
01:15:10,440 --> 01:15:15,720
People given the conditions of the market simply have to prioritize something that can

954
01:15:15,720 --> 01:15:20,600
sustain profits over a period of time and then potentially expand to things that are

955
01:15:20,600 --> 01:15:28,360
obviously more beneficial and more efficient and more secure and things like that.

956
01:15:28,360 --> 01:15:31,440
Once again, it all comes down to adoption.

957
01:15:31,440 --> 01:15:37,460
Essentially, that's what a lot of people, I think at Algorand and affiliates, are being

958
01:15:37,460 --> 01:15:39,080
focused at the moment.

959
01:15:39,080 --> 01:15:44,040
It's the period of trying to see.

960
01:15:44,040 --> 01:15:46,240
The direction is totally okay.

961
01:15:46,240 --> 01:15:52,560
Things may not be nurturing, but the direction, I think, the community and the technology,

962
01:15:52,560 --> 01:15:55,960
totally okay.

963
01:15:55,960 --> 01:15:58,440
It is totally correct because it's aiming.

964
01:15:58,440 --> 01:16:02,000
Yes, the road is very hard.

965
01:16:02,000 --> 01:16:09,160
One other thing I just want to add is we should not forget about the timing because every

966
01:16:09,160 --> 01:16:14,440
technology, when it starts, if it's some kind of interesting technology, it experiences

967
01:16:14,440 --> 01:16:15,440
a hype time.

968
01:16:15,440 --> 01:16:19,840
During that hype time, when Ethereum was hyping, there was no Algorand.

969
01:16:19,840 --> 01:16:21,480
They are ahead of us.

970
01:16:21,480 --> 01:16:24,200
That is the fact we cannot evade.

971
01:16:24,200 --> 01:16:26,560
We should accept that.

972
01:16:26,560 --> 01:16:32,600
But when we are intending to create a paradigm shift and actually have all the potential

973
01:16:32,600 --> 01:16:38,800
and everything necessary in terms of means, tools, potential, talent, whatever it is,

974
01:16:38,800 --> 01:16:41,720
we have it, I think it's just a matter of time.

975
01:16:41,720 --> 01:16:47,760
Again, being patient and deterministic about it and just think about the destination and

976
01:16:47,760 --> 01:16:48,920
going toward that.

977
01:16:48,920 --> 01:16:55,280
With that mindset and just with a little bit of time passing, I think after because we

978
01:16:55,280 --> 01:17:00,640
just witnessed the hype time and hype era for all cryptos coming to an end.

979
01:17:00,640 --> 01:17:06,320
After that, if there is a hype, that's a hype based on real use case and real value because

980
01:17:06,320 --> 01:17:12,840
the values that those tokens, yes, Bitcoin is some kind of exception because it was the

981
01:17:12,840 --> 01:17:16,640
first one pioneered the new era and so on and so forth.

982
01:17:16,640 --> 01:17:21,480
But for other ones, some of those token prices are not based on the real value and the real

983
01:17:21,480 --> 01:17:23,520
impact they create in the real world.

984
01:17:23,520 --> 01:17:24,520
They're just hype.

985
01:17:24,520 --> 01:17:28,560
Yes, it is, for example, a thousand dollar or something like that.

986
01:17:28,560 --> 01:17:32,080
You cannot do any kind of math around it.

987
01:17:32,080 --> 01:17:38,600
There is no transaction wise, user base wise, even a simple card payment provider in traditional

988
01:17:38,600 --> 01:17:45,240
banking will beat them easily in every kind of calculation on math, numbers, volume, everything.

989
01:17:45,240 --> 01:17:51,720
But they experienced a hype era and because their community were totally felt comfortable

990
01:17:51,720 --> 01:17:55,880
with everything that they have, their NFTs, their marketplaces, the DEXs, everything,

991
01:17:55,880 --> 01:18:01,680
it continued to keep some of that momentum they gained during that hype era.

992
01:18:01,680 --> 01:18:04,480
For Algorand, that hype era didn't last so much.

993
01:18:04,480 --> 01:18:11,280
So we didn't gain so much momentum during that and we are somehow exhausting that little

994
01:18:11,280 --> 01:18:13,640
momentum that we gained during that hype era.

995
01:18:13,640 --> 01:18:17,000
We didn't go beyond two dollars, if I'm correct.

996
01:18:17,000 --> 01:18:24,240
So the momentum is smaller, but the potential and talent is much bigger.

997
01:18:24,240 --> 01:18:33,000
So we stand a lot more chance if we got solid in what we do, go toward, don't think about

998
01:18:33,000 --> 01:18:34,000
the hardship.

999
01:18:34,000 --> 01:18:39,280
Yes, we get damaged, we get hurt for sure, but don't think about it as I want to quote

1000
01:18:39,280 --> 01:18:46,520
from the Lawrence of Arabia that says, yes, it does hurt, but the point is not minding

1001
01:18:46,520 --> 01:18:47,680
that it hurts.

1002
01:18:47,680 --> 01:18:54,720
I think this way, with not minding that it hurts and just continue with our passion and

1003
01:18:54,720 --> 01:19:01,320
our building, we can get there eventually because again, the technology has the potential.

1004
01:19:01,320 --> 01:19:04,640
I absolutely agree with your point.

1005
01:19:04,640 --> 01:19:11,600
I've been on an Ethereum conference recently and I had experience trying that competition

1006
01:19:11,600 --> 01:19:16,600
of yours and I believe it's called Po-op Inc.

1007
01:19:16,600 --> 01:19:17,800
Yes, yes, Po-op.

1008
01:19:17,800 --> 01:19:23,400
I think it was Po-op Inc. actually and not to bash any technology out there and because

1009
01:19:23,400 --> 01:19:25,880
it existed, but I had a pretty bad experience actually.

1010
01:19:25,880 --> 01:19:27,520
I wasn't able to claim it.

1011
01:19:27,520 --> 01:19:34,760
There was issues with basically transaction being propagated.

1012
01:19:34,760 --> 01:19:43,480
Up until a year ago, I think if I'm not wrong, you need to send emails to creators and send

1013
01:19:43,480 --> 01:19:49,360
your information, ask for a Po-op to be created and they got to decide if they want to do

1014
01:19:49,360 --> 01:19:54,640
it or not and respond to your email and then they created a web form for you to send your

1015
01:19:54,640 --> 01:19:56,440
information after that.

1016
01:19:56,440 --> 01:20:05,880
So it was a very good idea, but it was limited first of all to one use case and it was to

1017
01:20:05,880 --> 01:20:12,960
many extent centralized, to many extent not permissionless and not trustless.

1018
01:20:12,960 --> 01:20:19,920
So what needed to be done is to rethink the whole thing and that process led to creation

1019
01:20:19,920 --> 01:20:21,800
of that proof of anything protocol.

1020
01:20:21,800 --> 01:20:26,600
Why not create something much better and much more flexible?

1021
01:20:26,600 --> 01:20:30,320
Doing that as a part of a story would cover a lot of more use cases.

1022
01:20:30,320 --> 01:20:31,320
Why not doing that?

1023
01:20:31,320 --> 01:20:40,800
And once you get used to this 3.3 second finality, you just can go like for example, I think

1024
01:20:40,800 --> 01:20:45,960
they used Polygon in that case for attendance on the Ethereum conference and I remember

1025
01:20:45,960 --> 01:20:52,120
it was at least 15 to 20 minutes for this thing to basically get propagated and I thought

1026
01:20:52,120 --> 01:20:55,520
that it's a bug on my phone or something like that.

1027
01:20:55,520 --> 01:21:00,880
You get used to certain things that you only start appreciating when you experience other

1028
01:21:00,880 --> 01:21:01,880
technologies.

1029
01:21:01,880 --> 01:21:05,120
Exactly and then you got wondered and shocked what happened because you used to say, okay,

1030
01:21:05,120 --> 01:21:07,280
I press send and it's there.

1031
01:21:07,280 --> 01:21:08,760
You go there, okay.

1032
01:21:08,760 --> 01:21:11,520
I was converting using change now.

1033
01:21:11,520 --> 01:21:17,560
I was converting something to I needed some ether on my Ethereum to be able to do something

1034
01:21:17,560 --> 01:21:19,280
on Ethereum.

1035
01:21:19,280 --> 01:21:24,120
I totally forget about that for a second and it's just okay.

1036
01:21:24,120 --> 01:21:26,000
Something went wrong with my transit.

1037
01:21:26,000 --> 01:21:27,800
When is it going to arrive?

1038
01:21:27,800 --> 01:21:30,800
And it just reminds me, oh, it's Ethereum.

1039
01:21:30,800 --> 01:21:32,800
Man, you should wait.

1040
01:21:32,800 --> 01:21:33,800
Be patient.

1041
01:21:33,800 --> 01:21:34,800
It's an algorithm.

1042
01:21:34,800 --> 01:21:35,800
Wait.

1043
01:21:35,800 --> 01:21:40,560
And I'm realizing that we went a little bit over time.

1044
01:21:40,560 --> 01:21:47,480
I'm sorry if we spent too much on the architecture side, but I guess just because you already

1045
01:21:47,480 --> 01:21:53,600
answered a lot of the points in regards to the future roadmap, the things that are being

1046
01:21:53,600 --> 01:21:59,040
planned for interoperability and I think it would be amazing if somehow state proofs are

1047
01:21:59,040 --> 01:22:01,120
going to be involved in this regard.

1048
01:22:01,120 --> 01:22:07,440
It's certainly going to be the more use cases are there for using this technology, the better

1049
01:22:07,440 --> 01:22:11,160
for the success of the overall chain and not just Algorand itself.

1050
01:22:11,160 --> 01:22:18,840
I think it's a great way for anyone to basically use the Falcon signatures.

1051
01:22:18,840 --> 01:22:26,480
If you want some sort of, which I believe is still to this point is the closest thing

1052
01:22:26,480 --> 01:22:33,680
to the cutting edge sort of research that is happening in regards to things that quantum

1053
01:22:33,680 --> 01:22:36,800
computers can tamper with.

1054
01:22:36,800 --> 01:22:50,480
And if you were to give an advice on sort of essential skills and experience for successful

1055
01:22:50,480 --> 01:22:56,840
engagement with blockchain development, what advice would you give to aspiring software

1056
01:22:56,840 --> 01:23:02,440
engineers who would like themselves to try some blockchain development in general?

1057
01:23:02,440 --> 01:23:06,040
And this is usually something I ask to most of the guests, but if you want, we can be

1058
01:23:06,040 --> 01:23:07,760
even more specific.

1059
01:23:07,760 --> 01:23:15,680
And what advice would you give to aspiring software engineers who are targeting to specifically

1060
01:23:15,680 --> 01:23:18,160
build something on Algorand basically?

1061
01:23:18,160 --> 01:23:21,800
So it's, I guess.

1062
01:23:21,800 --> 01:23:28,000
First of all, in general, first of all, I'm not in that place to give advice, but I can

1063
01:23:28,000 --> 01:23:29,520
just share what I've learned.

1064
01:23:29,520 --> 01:23:31,320
Some of it in hard way.

1065
01:23:31,320 --> 01:23:38,240
First of all, don't get the day you think that you're satisfied, you have whatever you

1066
01:23:38,240 --> 01:23:43,840
need and you don't need anything more even for a week or even for a day.

1067
01:23:43,840 --> 01:23:49,500
Last day you actually somewhat assassinated your career as a developer or as a builder.

1068
01:23:49,500 --> 01:23:56,080
So as I'm quoting this, say hungry, changing it about knowledge and about gaining knowledge

1069
01:23:56,080 --> 01:23:57,600
on everything.

1070
01:23:57,600 --> 01:24:05,960
Don't get settled with your own niche or your domain and always try to say up to date with

1071
01:24:05,960 --> 01:24:13,960
other trends, other domain, other niches, even if they're not somehow overlapping or

1072
01:24:13,960 --> 01:24:17,720
interfering with your line of business.

1073
01:24:17,720 --> 01:24:22,920
But keeping yourself up to date as a builder or developer with all of those trends and

1074
01:24:22,920 --> 01:24:27,760
know what's going on in different areas of tech and science would help you greatly.

1075
01:24:27,760 --> 01:24:34,880
And secondly, I think this is the thing I learned in a hard way, but we are living in

1076
01:24:34,880 --> 01:24:42,320
a little bit cruel mindset era where all of the developers are advised, if you create

1077
01:24:42,320 --> 01:24:45,080
something, make sure you get paid for it.

1078
01:24:45,080 --> 01:24:49,360
This is a very harsh and very straight and very frank one and coming from actually a

1079
01:24:49,360 --> 01:24:55,080
very hard experience for me, no matter how kind, how humble, whatever you are, if you

1080
01:24:55,080 --> 01:25:01,240
create a bit, a line of code and somebody else says, hey, it's good, your next word

1081
01:25:01,240 --> 01:25:04,760
should be how much are you going to pay for it.

1082
01:25:04,760 --> 01:25:13,400
Because when you do this, I'm saying this with very heavy heart, but people don't care

1083
01:25:13,400 --> 01:25:17,120
if Beethoven plays piano on the subway.

1084
01:25:17,120 --> 01:25:24,680
Nobody, nobody would even care to turn their head watching Beethoven or Mozart playing

1085
01:25:24,680 --> 01:25:31,320
in a subway because the mindset tells them if you get it free, it's cheap, it doesn't

1086
01:25:31,320 --> 01:25:32,320
worth it.

1087
01:25:32,320 --> 01:25:36,720
So be expensive, sell yourself very expensive in order to be noticed.

1088
01:25:36,720 --> 01:25:39,880
If you want to be noticed, there's no humble way to do that.

1089
01:25:39,880 --> 01:25:46,720
Even if it means to fake being expensive, I just learned it very hard way.

1090
01:25:46,720 --> 01:25:51,460
But for young developers, I totally give this advice.

1091
01:25:51,460 --> 01:25:54,360
This is more solid than the first one even.

1092
01:25:54,360 --> 01:26:00,960
So make sure you take care of your financial aspect and your monetary aspect as well as

1093
01:26:00,960 --> 01:26:07,280
you have your passion about building because sometimes for people, you need to keep some

1094
01:26:07,280 --> 01:26:12,680
aspect of your inner child alive in order to be a good builder or a good developer.

1095
01:26:12,680 --> 01:26:14,840
You need to be excited with technology.

1096
01:26:14,840 --> 01:26:17,640
You need to be excited with display tools that you find.

1097
01:26:17,640 --> 01:26:25,840
So that aspect stays with you and a child doesn't have a regard or doesn't have an

1098
01:26:25,840 --> 01:26:33,820
answer prioritized level of mind for money or for gaining opportunities or for benefits.

1099
01:26:33,820 --> 01:26:42,120
If you give in with that part of you and just go with that flow, you will suffer consequently.

1100
01:26:42,120 --> 01:26:44,280
So keep a balance between the two.

1101
01:26:44,280 --> 01:26:50,760
Keep the child alive, but keep that adult watching over that child and constantly ask

1102
01:26:50,760 --> 01:26:57,880
for, here's what the child has created and I'm the adult, how much are you going to

1103
01:26:57,880 --> 01:27:01,360
pay for it?

1104
01:27:01,360 --> 01:27:04,800
That's an amazing advice, I would say.

1105
01:27:04,800 --> 01:27:07,240
I certainly can agree with this more.

1106
01:27:07,240 --> 01:27:12,080
The passion, no matter how passionate you are about any particular domain of engineering

1107
01:27:12,080 --> 01:27:19,240
or just computer science in general, that passion is only sustainable as long as the

1108
01:27:19,240 --> 01:27:22,560
conditions in which you are are sustainable and to sustain it.

1109
01:27:22,560 --> 01:27:28,000
We live in a society where a lot of things are unfortunately very materialistic and so

1110
01:27:28,000 --> 01:27:29,720
you have to worry about that.

1111
01:27:29,720 --> 01:27:32,040
Well, that is what it is.

1112
01:27:32,040 --> 01:27:33,040
It is out there.

1113
01:27:33,040 --> 01:27:39,880
It is the dominant mindset and as I exactly give you the example, if you take that Beethoven

1114
01:27:39,880 --> 01:27:46,720
and put him in the Albert Hall Saloon in London, people would happily pay $100,000 per seat

1115
01:27:46,720 --> 01:27:52,080
for the Franz Rode to hear Beethoven playing and they don't even care if that's what is

1116
01:27:52,080 --> 01:27:55,560
the name as much as he is playing in Albert Hall Saloon.

1117
01:27:55,560 --> 01:27:56,560
So it is expensive.

1118
01:27:56,560 --> 01:27:58,200
So it should be something.

1119
01:27:58,200 --> 01:28:04,440
So 70% of people there don't have a clue what the music is, what this player name is, what

1120
01:28:04,440 --> 01:28:08,400
is his background, what did he go through to be on this stage.

1121
01:28:08,400 --> 01:28:13,800
They just come here to hear a music which worth $10,000 ticket.

1122
01:28:13,800 --> 01:28:20,640
This is for 70 or 80% out there and this goes for the VCs, investors and everybody out there,

1123
01:28:20,640 --> 01:28:23,480
managers, you name it.

1124
01:28:23,480 --> 01:28:25,200
Everybody has this mindset.

1125
01:28:25,200 --> 01:28:27,440
So go with it.

1126
01:28:27,440 --> 01:28:29,680
Don't be carried away with your passion that much.

1127
01:28:29,680 --> 01:28:32,960
Keep a balance between the two and you will be good to go.

1128
01:28:32,960 --> 01:28:33,960
Awesome.

1129
01:28:33,960 --> 01:28:39,520
And maybe just as a very last note, as you mentioned, being open-minded in regards to

1130
01:28:39,520 --> 01:28:43,000
the latest trends and things that are happening in the technology.

1131
01:28:43,000 --> 01:28:49,440
Just wanted to bring out one very interesting area of research that is potentially something

1132
01:28:49,440 --> 01:28:58,640
that I guess happening is currently in the Ethereum ecosystem, but the area of zero knowledge

1133
01:28:58,640 --> 01:29:05,600
machine learning, which I think if I'll grant is to go the way to start exploring zero knowledge

1134
01:29:05,600 --> 01:29:10,400
further in regards to how things like, for example, state proofs can be applied and etc.

1135
01:29:10,400 --> 01:29:18,080
There's a very interesting area basically on how you can make things like decentralized

1136
01:29:18,080 --> 01:29:23,040
Kaggle, for example, deploying and solving AI challenges without revealing how your model

1137
01:29:23,040 --> 01:29:28,000
is built, how exactly it was trained, basically introducing a bit more privacy into these

1138
01:29:28,000 --> 01:29:29,000
systems.

1139
01:29:29,000 --> 01:29:33,560
But things like that can only happen if you're looking at...

1140
01:29:33,560 --> 01:29:34,680
Sorry?

1141
01:29:34,680 --> 01:29:36,840
And the ethical aspects of it.

1142
01:29:36,840 --> 01:29:38,200
Of course.

1143
01:29:38,200 --> 01:29:43,920
There is no other way recently, there is no way except for accessing the whole data and

1144
01:29:43,920 --> 01:29:47,120
the whole process they went through to train those models.

1145
01:29:47,120 --> 01:29:53,120
There's no way that you can check for some kind of truth or for some kind of rule or

1146
01:29:53,120 --> 01:29:54,440
for some kind of...

1147
01:29:54,440 --> 01:29:55,440
Citation or...

1148
01:29:55,440 --> 01:29:59,360
... facts in that large language model, for example.

1149
01:29:59,360 --> 01:30:06,760
And by that, using that sort of technology for zero knowledge proofs, you can at least

1150
01:30:06,760 --> 01:30:13,360
make sure by having an index of these embedded or these inferencing data that is being added

1151
01:30:13,360 --> 01:30:20,280
as a training to that language model or information model, as you can call it, you can make sure

1152
01:30:20,280 --> 01:30:27,120
at least you have a manifest that proves that we consider these vectors, we consider these

1153
01:30:27,120 --> 01:30:31,040
data as factual data, and this is the proof for it.

1154
01:30:31,040 --> 01:30:35,000
You can have it, you can verify it without going through the whole complexity of the

1155
01:30:35,000 --> 01:30:39,840
AI system and also the large model.

1156
01:30:39,840 --> 01:30:46,200
So it makes the verification in terms of our ethical verification, perfectual verification,

1157
01:30:46,200 --> 01:30:54,680
everything, it makes it much easier for produce learning models to be assessed and checked

1158
01:30:54,680 --> 01:30:56,480
afterwards, their creation.

1159
01:30:56,480 --> 01:30:57,480
Yeah.

1160
01:30:57,480 --> 01:31:01,160
So it's definitely going to be interesting to see how this area of research is being

1161
01:31:01,160 --> 01:31:07,760
evolved and would be glad to hear some ways where Algorand can basically apply its tech

1162
01:31:07,760 --> 01:31:14,560
because it seems to be the only area of synergy in terms of AI and cryptography these days.

1163
01:31:14,560 --> 01:31:21,120
But on that note, once again, MJ, thanks again for being an amazing guest on the show and

1164
01:31:21,120 --> 01:31:27,920
I'm looking forward to see some new developments and improvements on the Co-Plosable platform

1165
01:31:27,920 --> 01:31:32,520
and for everyone who paired with us through this long conversation.

1166
01:31:32,520 --> 01:31:36,000
Thank you for listening and stay tuned for new episodes.

1167
01:31:36,000 --> 01:31:37,000
Thank you so much.

1168
01:31:37,000 --> 01:31:38,320
It was a pleasure and an honor.

1169
01:31:38,320 --> 01:31:40,040
I hope everybody enjoys it.

1170
01:31:40,040 --> 01:32:02,920
Thank you so much, Al.