Hello and welcome to Listen.Up.People., a podcast
of the USC Suzanne Dworak-Peck School of Social
Work. I'm Dr. Holly Priebe Sotelo, associate
teaching professor of practicum education. We
are in real time development of social work and
technology. So much is happening with artificial
intelligence alone. Today, we're going to take
a look at where social work meets tech and the
ways in which it can be used for social good.
My guests have been considering the impact of
an integration of technology and social work
practice and education for the past few years.
I'd like to welcome two of my social work colleagues
to the show, Jennifer Parga and Jenebah Lewis,
who are both associate teaching professors of
practicum education. Great to have you both here.
And I'm excited to learn more about this subject
from the two of you. So I'd like to start off
by asking a more personal question about how
each of you became interested in the intersection
of social work and technology. Why don't we start
with you, Jenebah, and then we'll go to Jen.
First, Holly, thank you for having us here today.
Jen and I have conversations about technology
and social work practice, whether it's in the
professional realms or even in our personal lives
all the time. So it's nice to be having this
conversation with you today. But I want to first
begin, at least for me, by professing to not
be an expert in technology or artificial intelligence.
So I just want to first say that. And while I
am incredibly curious, I am concerned at the
same time as a citizen, as a parent. and as a
social worker about this thing called technology,
right? It's a conversation I think we all need
to have, no matter how knowledgeable you are
about the subject, because it is all around us,
and I think it is here to stay. Most of the conversations
I think is specifically around artificial intelligence,
but Jen and I want to focus on the broader conversation
of technology, which also includes AI or artificial
intelligence. So on a personal note, I remember
sort of connecting with technology in this way.
So many, many years ago, and I want to date myself,
as I graduated from the MSW program and began
working in community mental health, I remember
us grappling with trying to figure out ways to
increase access to care. there was a lot of gaps
in which our clients were not coming to the office
to receive mental health services, if you will,
or they would not be able to see their psychiatrist
for a variety of reasons. And so across Los Angeles
County, we were trying to figure out ways of
how can we eliminate or help to improve access
to care for some of those clients. And so an
idea came to mind that we would start doing video
appointments. And I thought that was crazy. And
some of my colleagues, we all thought it was
a crazy idea and that it would not work. And
so in many meetings, we started sharing our thoughts
about why this would be an issue, including trust
and, you know, the system is not going to work.
Our clients, you know, may not want to talk to
us or the psychiatrist through a video screen.
But what we found was, is while there were some
clients who did not necessarily like the idea
or utilize this, some did. and we were able to
address the access to care, right? And so we
now see this as a part of telehealth and telebehavioral
health, which I've been a provider of and also
a consumer of. So those are positive outcomes.
The other thing I would say in terms of from
a personal note, and then I'll turn it over to
Jen so that I'm not speaking so much, but I
just, I've watched older relatives. who's utilized
technology and trying to navigate like automated
systems and becoming incredibly frustrated and
so I would have to you know step in to help them
to navigate those systems or they would tell
me I need to go online to fill out paperwork
just to get a service or to do this and I don't
know how to do that and so I think about this
as a social worker as the digital divide right
so the inequities that that's coming up. And
so I'm seeing that in my personal life and thinking
about why I know that there's other families
that are going through this and other communities
that are experiencing this and what can we do
about this as social workers. And then lastly,
I'm a parent and My daughter, I remember when
she was small, she's a teenager, y 'all, I won't
go into that. But when she was smaller, we would
go to the park, we would have safety conversations
around how to stay safe. And so I would give
her a lot of the ways to remain safe when we
would be at the park. But she's grown up with
tablets and iPads, which if you are listening
in the audience, your kids or maybe you might
even grown up with tablets, right? And so I remember
sitting with her and looking at a game she was
playing. And I became a bit concerned because
of what I was noticing happening. And it was
in that moment that I realized the playground
that I once grew up on or grew up playing on
has now changed for my daughter. Her playground
is a digital playground. And so now this conversation
around safety has to change. There's no blueprint
for this, right? My mom couldn't share how to
do this or how to navigate this, but I had to
learn early on, and I think many other families
are grappling with this. Excellent. Thank you, Jenebah.
And Jen, what about you?
Yeah, so I appreciate that context, Jenebah. You know,
my kind of discovery with technology or... wanting
to be curious about that. I realized while thinking
about this podcast that it was really about piecing
together all these moments throughout my career.
And one of the first ones was I was a community
organizer and I was hired to do a community assessment
in San Diego and, you know, straight to traditional
organizing strategy. I'm going to go door knocking.
I'm going to talk to every person and see whoever
will talk to me about completing this survey
that a funder was willing to utilize a neighborhood
data to fund projects. So it was really exciting.
And I, you know, as a social worker, wanted to
get as many assessments or survey completions
as I could. And as I started door knocking and
the strategy was tell people about this survey,
have them complete it when they get to their
computer. And as I was doing the door knocking
on the first day, I'm realizing they don't have
access to computers. It's like telling them to
go do something that they're never going to do.
And now we're not going to get their input and
say they never provided their voice or we didn't
get their voice. And so I thought, man, I need
to bring the survey to them. And so, I mean,
this is 20 years ago. So, you know, I'm advocating,
I need like a tablet of some sort or like an
iPad or something to help and be with. the community
as they complete this assessment and we get their
voice in real time and it might take longer so
please give me more time to get these surveys
completed and so I look back on that I'm like
man I was thinking about how can we be efficient
and still reach our goal? And it was still social
work. I was still engaging. But I was utilizing
this technology that gave the neighborhood a
layer of access that they didn't have. And so
I think that's where my desire. to utilize technology
or information communication technologies like
emails and scheduling, phone calls, websites,
as a way to be more efficient and to allow social
workers to have more time to focus on the client,
obtaining the client voice and moving forward
in those ways. Jennifer mentioned this context
of how she came to be. That's my context. But
I think now, because we're in this present state
of AI and large language models, Jennifer and
I think back to our experiences 20 years ago,
and that's like our positionality with. with
technology. And so in social work, I know we
think of positionality on how that relates to
your social identities. So race, gender, class,
and your ability and how those identities shape
your perspective. So if I'm using that same tech
positionality, I would anchor my positionality
in I used tech in my practice 20 years ago. I
grew up analog, like beta was on the way out.
I had a video home system, my VHS tape. I put
my little, my video in and I was kind and I rewinded
and I, you know, send it back to Blockbuster.
But that's what I grew up with and that's what
I know. My adult life has been digital. And so...
I've straddled both of these worlds and kind
of can speak to both languages, right? The analog,
like I'm gonna go door to door, I'm gonna knock
and that's the traditional practice. And then
I also am like. Like let's do this in a way that
allows us to be in this digital space and still
hold on to the essence of social work and things
like that. So question for you from Jenebah
and I, what would you consider your tech positionality?
Ooh, I love it. I love the guests are turning
on the host here. I love that. And my tech. positionality.
I never really thought about that term, to be
quite honest. And I'm a little older than both
of you. And I think to myself, gosh, I grew up
in the 70s and the 80s where, I mean, pagers
didn't even come out. I think when I was working
at DCF Fest, we didn't even have a cell phone.
So I think for me, I'm still at that place in
my life where I am, you know, not very trusting
of all technologies. I'm always wary of like,
is this a scam? What am I doing? You know, so
I'm a little wary about that. but I do learn
so much from my students. I learned so much from
my colleagues like you both. And obviously I
learned from my daughter who is a millennial
and she answers all of my questions. But yeah,
there's so much about this topic that I am still
learning. And so I'm so excited that we have
this topic. There's a variety, a spectrum of
a gap in social work and technology, which leads
me to my next question really, for you both is
like, how is social work related to technology
and where do we even start?
Technology is already a part of social work practice. I think we've
talked about various instances already. Jen,
you had mentioned information communication technology,
and that's at its basic function, right? Where
we're emailing clients, emailing each other.
using various platforms to do that, maybe even
using scheduling reminders for our clients to
come to appointments. I'm even thinking about
electronic health record systems. Many of our
audience members are using, probably all of you,
and have learned about best practices on how
to protect client data and integrated care systems,
how to share information across clinical departments
or systems of care. the use of technology already
in our practice. And then there's sort of more
of the advanced use. Right. And so there's the
telehealth platforms that we're currently using,
whether you're utilizing it on computer or even
on your phone device. Right. And so there is
also the use where Many agencies or social workers
might be having their clients to monitor or track
their symptoms and wellness using apps. So there's
apps that are, that's helping us to do the work,
to even apps that can help support and manage
wellness, right? And so clients and community
members can go to an app to help support them,
like leading them through sort of a grounding
exercise or listening to music, those sorts of
things on your phone device. I mean, I'm sure
many of us have done that. And then there's even
case management. I'm sure all of us could raise
it. We're all could raise our hands in this room
in this digital space where we've given a referral,
a paper referral to a client for them to link
them to services, right? Well, there are platforms
now where you can do sort of care coordination
thinking of one. And we actually had a guest
in one of our events, Jen and I events in the
past one degree. It's a platform that we can
utilize to help clients. and their referrals
so we can link them through a sort of a digital
platforms rather than giving them a paper referral.
That's helped, I think, support our work and
to make it more efficient, but also to close
the gap in the loop and did the client actually
make it to that referral, right? So there's that
piece. and how technology has been really helpful.
And then I think there's opportunities for social
workers to provide psycho education through digital
technology or means such as like social media
and YouTube. And there's so much information
out there already and our community members are
utilizing these platforms to seek information.
So I think that. Us being experts in this area,
there's a real opportunity for us to continue
to engage in these spaces, to provide information
about mental health, wellness, social justice
issues, et cetera, for community members to learn
from us and for us to reach a larger audience
or community. And then lastly, I'll just kind
of say that I think about all of the things that's
happening in society and advocacy and social
justice is one of the pillars of the work that
we do. And we can do that on social media, right?
putting up really short reels on Instagram about
social justice issues or doing talks on YouTube
about various social justice issues and advocating
for our clients. So not just in this space, but
also in the wider space. In social work practice,
we are training and educating, utilizing platforms
such as this, Zoom, right? To teach and educate
students about social work practice. You made
me reflect on back when I started. Social Work
35 plus years ago using the Rolodex. how, where
was my Rolodex? And it's like, oh, dang, did
I pull that card out? Where's that card? You
know, and not having, because we didn't have
technology back then, no internet back when I
started. So yes, I love, love this, the way that
it has evolved our work. But love it. Thank you
so much, Jenebah. And Jen, so where does the
problem, I'm sorry, where does the profession
of social work stand in relations to technology
integration in practicum? or in curriculum? Short
answer, I tend to have both, short and long answer.
Short answer is the profession, organizations,
and social workers are in different stages of
change and acceptance. I'll leave it at that.
The long answer is like when you shared, which
I appreciate you sharing, because I think a lot
of people can relate to the not trusting of technology.
My hope is that folks can get to a thirst for
knowledge, if you will, like transition that
the fear or the not trusting into a curiosity
or an inquisition or things like that. And so
back to this long answer of where is the profession
in terms of technology integration, in practice,
and or in curriculum. COVID really almost got
a lot of folks, I would say the majority of folks
on the same page of technology can be useful.
We can work from home. We can work remotely.
We can still be productive. And so I think that
was a big shift that folks, organizations, and
businesses had. And that even applies to our
professional organizations. So for example, the
National Association of Social Workers created
the Code of Ethics, which we all adhere to and
know that we are held to and are held accountable,
made some updates, maybe. man, must be eight,
10 years ago that added a layer of technology
into the code of ethics. So we're actually obligated
to adhere to the code of ethics, which also includes
the pieces of technology, whether we we trusted
or not. But one of the main competencies that
were updated was about being competence and receiving
training. And so I bring this up because it makes
me think about how we used to have the language
about cultural competency. and that we kind of
transition that to cultural humility. And I don't
argue that we can do the same thing with technology,
that we're not going to be competent in tech.
We're not going to know everything. We're not
going to know how to code. We're not going to
know how to create apps. Maybe we will someday,
parts of it. But I think there needs to be a
technological humility that we bring to the table
as social workers because our professional organization
is calling us to do so. So that's one organization.
Another one that I think about is the grand challenges
for social work. And so we're not alone in having
grand challenges. Other professions have grand
challenges, engineering, occupational health,
climate science. So we are a large organization
of individuals at social workers with these call,
like a call to action. And we just celebrated
our 10 year anniversary with the Grand Challenges.
And so I'll admit to a bias there. I am on the
leadership for the Grand Challenges. So I'll
be like, okay, that's my shameless plug. But
they are really trying to identify. where technology
intersects with all the other grand challenges
because technology isn't and I'm quoting Jonathan
Singer. If anybody knows him and his podcast
like technology isn't something to be solved
like we're not going to fix or solve or get rid
of or whatever you think the solution is to technology.
That's not going to happen, but we do need to
adjust our perspective to include technology
in the practices that. that we all have. Another
standard that was created was the standards of
technology and social work practice and I actually
brought this up to my class yesterday and I said
I'm not going to make you read it no offense
to the creators because it's 64 pages but I will
tell you the main sections are very helpful to
identify where you can explore more as a social
worker. Do you want to explore the provisions
of information to the public? Like how, what
we say, who we are, and what we do. The trainings
that we are, the certifications that we have,
reflects and is accurate what people are consuming
on wherever they're getting your information.
Back to the telehealth example from Jenebah about
designing and delivering services. Are we doing
it in an ethical way? Are we ensuring competence
and informed consent? That was Jenebah's. From
the clients that are on receiving services to
a more administrative and macro level, are we
gathering, managing, and storing information
in a way that's maintaining confidentiality,
that gives clients data privacy, that their security,
I could go on. And then the last one is as faculty,
we not only can deliver social work education
via online education, create asynchronous material,
but we also need to be proficient in how that's
done, best practice in terms of our pedagogy
and teaching online. So that area, I think, has
really expanded a lot in the last few years.
I feel like in the clinical space, and I realize
I do this a lot. Like I try and find something
that are like clinical social workers can relate
to and then connect it back to technology. But
this one, for example, is like, if you think
of like Judith Beck from like the CBT space,
like she was a pioneer. She's created an institutionalized
system, right? for CBT, there are also social
workers that are the Judith Becks of technology.
And so I just wanted to share a few of them in
case folks want to really dive into the history.
Walter Allamondola was huge in terms of information
communication technology and how those functions
can support social practice. Frederick Reamer
is kind of brings that ethical lens into tech.
And I don't know if Jonathan Singer or Lori Goldkind
will be mad that I'm saying that they're like
the all these but goodies of technology. But
Jonathan Singer has had a podcast for 20 years
disseminating so like social work information
and Lori Goldkind is actually now the editor
of the Journal of Technology and Human Services.
And it's also in the community. So it's like,
you can be both. You can be a social work practitioner
and be engaged in technology. Oh my gosh. Jen,
I had no idea. I mean, it's just so beautiful
how thinking about it in very simple terms that
we have not just a responsibility to integrate.
technology and social work but there's been so
many opportunities and being technologically
humble I'm thinking is you know a lot of takeaways
with that so then then tell our audience how
do we prepare future social workers or or can
we or can social work students tap into their
existing knowledge of digital technologies and
and how to apply social work practice. So maybe
Jenabah, if you could answer that or?
Sure. Thanks, Holly. That's a really great question. And I
think it really responds to what Jen said in
terms of there's an obligation. No matter if
you decide to have a huge focus on technology
in your work, at the minimum, you should understand
the ethics of it. I think is what's critical
and what's critical in our practice every day.
And so Jen and I just had a conversation this
week. I think you were alluding to this, Jen,
about just even the very use of Zoom, right?
And so AI is now integrated in our Zoom platforms
and it can help us summarize our meetings. We
no longer, unless you just like to write down
notes or summaries of your meetings, but do we
ask permission? to utilize AI in the meetings.
We may inform, but we don't get consent. Two
different things. And so it is even just small
practices like that that we need to be aware
of as we are interfacing with the various platforms.
And those are things that we can teach our students,
right, in terms of the ethics. So let me just
start with, you know, one of our grand challenges,
as Jen mentioned, and happy 10 years to our grand
challenges is that one of them is harnessing
technology for good. And one of the things that
we recommend that the audience do or anyone who's
listening is to perhaps read the original grand
challenge concept paper on harnessing technology.
that was developed so that you can kind of get
a sense of the historical context and applicability
to today's artificial intelligence environment.
So that's one thing we could do is sort of propose
that as a homework assignment for anyone who
is listening. Part of Jen and I's conversations
have also been around helping students to continue
to be critical thinkers. while utilizing technology.
I think that that's one of the fears is that
we sort of take away that aspect of our work
and that technology is doing everything for us.
But how can we help them to do both, right? To
continue to be critical thinkers, but also utilize
technology in a way that it can help support
and complement the work that we are already doing
as social work. It's not takeover, right? And
so it's kind of moving. the narrative from it's
going to take over our jobs, but how can we use
it in a way that is ethical, but that also can
support and complement the work? And then I think
preparing them to use and engage in digital spaces
in an ethical way is incredibly important. We
already teach interdisciplinary work in clinical
practice or social work practice, so why not
apply the same strategies, right? So all of us
have talked about integrated behavioral health
and in a professional education. And so I think
what we can do as educators and in this sort
of space is plant the seeds for social workers
to be a part of the tech space, not that the
tech space is over there and we're kind of outsiders,
but that we are and can be a part of this process,
meaning we can be participants from the start
of an idea or concept. When we think about technology
during the design process, during the implementation
phase and even at the point of evaluation, right?
So we can be a part of this idea or concept of
technology in any way. We can encourage and plant
the seeds for this. And so this is another area
of interprofessional education from my perspective,
right? We teach students integrated behavioral
health. As I mentioned before, we can also do
the same in tech space. And so we've taken seats
in healthcare, education, government, public
safety. And so this is just yet another table
for us to grab a seat to. And so my thought is
that we can either get involved on the back end
or the front end. This would be considered the
front end. The back end would be us responding
to the harm that is caused by the acceleration
of technology. And so it is our thoughts that,
you know, we can help students to really engage
in this process, but to be a part of the conversations,
not in isolation, but also with others who are
designing technology. And so having said that,
I'll just briefly state that Jen and I, as a
result of that, developed a course, Social Work
310. It's an undergraduate course, and so it's
to hopefully help social work students or students
who are coming to the social work field to be
engaged with students from other disciplines
and diverse backgrounds, which includes technology
or computer science. that they can collaborate
and learn from each other and talk about the
very ideas that we've been talking about and
concepts that we've been talking about in this
conversation. And so the hope is that through
that collaboration, we are thinking about the
ethical implications of the technology that we're
building, how we're implementing it, who's getting
left out. who's engaged, who's involved, who
do we need to come sit at the table so that we're
bringing that insight as social workers to the
table into that conversation. And so we are launching
this class to really provide an opportunity for
students at USC to begin to have these conversations
with each other so that they hopefully will then
go out and do this work in collaboration and
not in isolation. So. That is one way that I
think we can have a second part of this, you
know, sort of conversation around how we can
help prepare and support students in the digital
age. Excellent. Jenebah, you covered so much
in this with this response. Jen, I know that
there was also some information or some ideas
about some, you know, some of the concerns about
technology. Did you want to add about, you know,
what are some of the concerns? Jennifer started
to answer that. I did want to say that when Jenebah
said you know join on the front end or the back
end just just be involved and I think our professional
organizations are recognizing that they too need
to step up and provide parameters and policy
and changes to curriculum so CSWE's tech committee
just submitted a report suggesting that maybe
technology is another competency in social work
education. So we might all be having to do this
because we have to, whether we want to or not.
So I don't know. I'll leave that there. But some
of the concerns, I think, and I'll do that same
kind of approach as Jennifer was talking about
where we do integrative social work is our curriculum
at USC. And so we look at the impact of something
at the individual, the group and organizational
level. And we practice social work fluidly throughout
all those spaces. So in terms of individuals,
I think a lot of people think about the concerns,
which some were mentioned earlier about the digital
divide, access to technology, being left behind.
I think there's a lot of public concern right
now about AI and the environment, the environmental
impact, the data centers being in communities,
in low income communities, the communities not
having a say. And I'll go back to one of our
pioneers. Jonathan Singer, we were all in a training
the earlier this week and like we're not gonna
make AI go away as social workers. We're not,
that's impossible, but we can still be involved
and think about it in a way that can support
the communities that are being impacted. So like,
what if we could all advocate that? Whoever has
a data center that that builder has to give 10
% back to the community or they have to build
a park or they have, you know, whatever the community
wants to offset the impact. So there is a space
for social workers. It's this unique approach.
And those are just some of the concerns. I think
the other one is, has to do with social media.
There's a social media addiction trial happening
right now. And I'm a parent to my... Girls are
approaching middle school, so it's out there.
It's a conversation, and I think parents are
concerned and social workers that work with teens.
It has to be a part of your approach in terms
of that biopsychosocial technological. This is
all such wonderful and valuable information.
I wish we had more time, but so can you please
tell our listeners, you know, what's next for
the two of you? You know, how can people get
involved? Jen? Well, Jennifer talked about launching
our social work course, the Tech for Global Good
and our Bachelors of Social Work program at USC
mentioned the event on March 26. That's a virtual
panel where we're bringing different disciplines
together. I also think in terms of getting involved,
a lot of this is is mindset. As a social worker,
the goal is to stay curious, just like we interrogate
clinical interventions for goodness of fit. do
the same thing for technology or whatever tech
you're using, it might not fit. It might not
be a good match. But and the other thing is getting
involved, I think. also includes consultation.
So as clinicians, you consult about something
with your peer, with your boss, when you have
a concern and you have a dialogue and an openness
to hear another person's perspective. And it's
hard to have a dialogue when a person comes to
the table with an unwillingness to explore the
possibilities. So I think I would just ask social
workers to continue doing what they do in terms
of consultation and things like that, but just
bring that extra layer, that curious mindset.
All right, love that. Jenabah, any final thoughts
about what's next? I think Jen hit it on the
nail is being curious, continuing to be curious,
to be in conversation. This is as much part of
our conversation as social workers around the
areas and issues that we cover in classes and
whatever space we're in. It's a part of the work
that we do and it's all around us. I think that
it's important for us to just continue to engage
in conversation no matter where you are in your
own tech sort of identity, no matter where you
are in the spectrum. And so I started with just
picking up a book. What is artificial intelligence?
That's where I started, just to understand what
it means. So that's what I encourage the audience
to do. Love that. Such a wonderful dialogue today.
I'd like to thank you, Jen and Jennifer, for
joining us for a great discussion. To learn more
about technology and social good, please visit
our website at dworakpeck.usc.edu. And if you
would like to network with our guests regarding
their work or want to support our transformative
research and programs, please email us at
listenuppeople@usc.edu.