Hello and welcome to Listen.Up.People., a podcast
of the USC Suzanne Dworak-Peck School of Social
Work. I'm Dr. Holly Priebe Sotelo, associate
teaching professor of practicum education. In
this episode, we are talking about neurodiversity,
and my guests today bring a rich perspective
on the topic from a variety of angles. First,
my colleague, Dr. Christina Paddock, associate
professor of social work, practicum education
here at USC Social Work., co -lead for
the USC Neurodiverse Student Affinity Group,
and she also brings lived experience as the mother
of a child who is neurodiverse. Also, we're pleased
to have Dr. Mona Kay, a USC PhD alumna, and she
is also the host of the Neurodiverse Love podcast
and specializes in helping people navigate the
relationship challenges that often arise when
at least one partner is neurodivergent. I'm pleased
to welcome you both here today to discuss this
important topic. Great to have you both here.
Thank you. Thank you, Holly. You're welcome.
So continuing with our tradition, I'd like to
start off by asking a more personal question
about how each of you became interested in the
focus of your work. So starting with you, Tina,
what drew you to working with neurodivergence?
Yes, it's so good to be here today, Holly, and
think that's a great question to start with today.
I have a personal reason as well as a more professional
reason. When I started, when I was an undergrad
many years ago, back in the late 80s, early 90s,
I'm dating myself, I actually took a class on
behavioral therapy or behavioral psychology and
the professor of that class was the director
of the Autism Center in Claremont. So she asked
me to be part of that. So I learned, I knew nothing
about working with children on the autism spectrum,
but I started there and we did behavioral techniques
to help children. Again, autism, and we're going
to talk about this probably a little bit more,
follows under the umbrella term of like neurodiversity
and neurodivergence. So that's what I'm talking
about it today, but I started working with these
kids. And back then we used a lot of behavioral
techniques to try to get them to ask questions.
questions or help with conversations, social
skills, as well as work with them if they were
doing a lot of what we call self -stimming or
self -stimulation, which maybe you think about
when you think of kind of old ideas of those
on the autism spectrum or those with autism,
you know, stimming, waving their hands or being
focused on things that are spinning. That's kind
of an old, I think very outdated. idea about
what autism is. So we worked on, you know, with
them decreasing that behavior. But nowadays,
which I'm so excited about with this, when we
work with those on the autism spectrum, the techniques
are much more affirming, less deficit based,
more strength based. We sit more on a spectrum.
So I started there many, many years ago. And
again, now the field has really changed. And
on a personal level, I have a daughter who is
neurodiverse. She was diagnosed very, when she
was in first grade with dyslexia. As you know,
many people in, you know, in our community, I'm
thinking Governor Gavin Newsom is dyslexic, have,
you know, issues with processing and with...
So I became very involved with that because as
many parents will know, it's very hard sometimes
in the school district with services and many
times we have to get outside services if we can't
get all the services through the school district.
So I really became an advocate for my daughter,
got her to work with a developmental optometrist
and also started a affinity group there for parents
so we all could support each other, parents and
other caregivers. Just in a nutshell, that's
some of my work, and I've just been involved
in my career throughout with neurodiversity,
also working with those on the autism spectrum.
Thank you, Tina. Excellent. I appreciate you.
Same question for you, Mona. When and how did
neurodivergence become your focus? Yeah, well,
it's very personal for me. I was married for
30 years, and a friend of mine was talking to
me about a guy she was dating. She thought he
was neurologically different. And at the time,
I was separated from my husband. This was 2017.
And the more she talked about him, the more I
realized, oh, that's my husband too. And then
I realized that he was autistic. And we had had
lots of challenges with communication and emotional
reciprocity and decision -making, which I'm sure
we'll talk about a little bit more. And when
I discovered autism in adults, I was like, oh
my gosh, I never learned about this at all in
school. And Holly, you're very lucky. I mean,
Tina, you're very lucky that you learned about
it. I don't remember maybe minute or two on kids
who were autistic. um, in a behavior class or
something like that. So when I discovered that
we were in a neurodiverse marriage, I asked my
ex to go get assessed and he went and the psychologist
who assessed him said, yes, you're probably on
the spectrum, but so what? And that was the beginning
of the end of our marriage because he said, this
is the way I am. I'm not working on a marriage
anymore. I'm not doing anything else. So we divorced
in 2018. So for me as a social worker, I have
a bachelor's, a master's, and a PhD in social
work, so there's no part of me that isn't a social
worker. I did my healing for about two years,
and I said, I need to do something in this world
to make this known to more people. And so I started
a podcast, Neurodiverse Love, in the middle of
a pandemic, right, in 2020, and I've been doing
it for now five and a half years. I publish one
weekly, and I've interviewed people from all
over the world and authors and researchers and
academicians. everybody that I could find that
would come on the podcast. And what I found is
there's so many folks that are struggling in
their romantic relationships and they don't understand
why. And then they find out about autism or they
find out about neurodivergence. Things begin
to make sense. And then they get to decide if
they want to go for help through a coach or a
therapist who understands neurodivergence. or
if they're no longer compatible and want to end
their marriage or relationship. So this is a
very, very, very personal thing for me. And I
have been doing this since 2020 and I absolutely
love it. Yeah. Thank you, Mona. Thank you, Tina.
Thank you for your vulnerability for, you know,
bringing your authenticity into this discussion
because for so many people there is such a stigma,
sometimes a that people might feel a little different
and they're not quite sure how to, what to call
that, what is that? And so I really appreciate
the genuine dialogue. So Tina, if you could please
help us learn a little bit more about some of
the different ideas when we hear the word neurodivergent,
what do we mean by that word and why it's important
to have a common understanding? And Mona, you
might also want to answer this question too,
but we'll start with Tina. And you know, Mona
brings up such a good point too. You know, I
never learned in undergrad until I had the behavioral
class or even in my education about autism or
about neurodivergence. I think just recently
with my daughter and then some of the work we've
been doing at the school, I've learned more about
neurodivergence. And I've also been involved
in a study with our USC Autism Center and some
other webinars and presentations I've done with
a team of other colleagues. So it's been something
where I've learned a lot too, because it hasn't
been part of just my general learning as a social
worker. And then there's a lot of kind of myths
and misunderstandings about what it means. But
in terms of neuro, a neurodivergence or neurodiversity.
I mean, I see it as kind of like an umbrella
term. I almost imagine an umbrella. Underneath
the umbrella are, you know, different, what we
could call in social work diagnoses or different
identities. For example, like autism, learning
issues, like dyslexia, ADHD. kind of describes
the idea that people experience the world in
different ways, right? How we learn, we see that
in the classroom, also to how we take in stimuli,
how we process things. Again, for my daughter,
you know, she's wonderfully great, very artistic,
very good visually, in many ways, auditory as
well, but just looking at that page with words
or numbers. it really for for her it was very
difficult for her to track nothing to do with
intelligence that's the biggest myth and another
myth too is those on the autism spectrum those
on who are neurodiverse can be wonderful social
workers that's another thing we really professionals
need to remember too i think we'll talk a little
bit more about that but they can also be wonderful
social workers but that that's how i view neurodiversity
or neurodivergence thank you tina mona would
you care to add yeah and and i think it's neurologically
different, being neurologically different. And
we can add Tourette's to that. We can add brain
injuries to that. And so folks that are neurologically
different are neurodivergent. And I think there
has been so much stigma attached to being neurologically
different, and now we have more shows that highlight
autistic individuals, not just Love on the Spectrum,
but there's The Good Doctor and there's a few
others that have come out recently, Atypical,
and so we see different. types of people who
are doing different types of work. And I think
that if we focus on the strengths, which is really,
really important in social work, and each person
has strengths, but neurodivergent folks, their
strengths may not have been recognized because
in school or at work, in relationships, people
may have focused on what was different about
them. And so they've struggled because they felt
oftentimes broken or wrong. and they're not and
I identify as ADHD and so I wondered why I have
this seven -page resume and every two to three
years I was getting a new job or had to have
you know multiple jobs at the same time because
I needed the dopamine hit and now I understand
myself at 62. I really appreciate clarifying
this for for our listeners because again there
are some folks still out there that are just
not quite sure how to articulate it and beautifully
done. Thank you so much. You have this focus
where you talked a little bit or you have where
you call or refer to the lost generation of folks
30 years or older who often recently discovered
that they are neurodivergent. Can you share something
more about this population, some of the common
challenges they may be experiencing? Yes, absolutely
and you know, we are fortunate now that we have
YouTube and we have social media So even if you're
part of the last generation you can find yourself
somewhere on social media so the last generation
are adults who were never evaluated or assessed
in school because how they presented was just
so different that what Tina talked about as the
typical person who was autistic ADHD or now you
can be diagnosed with both. autism and ADHD until
2013 you could only be diagnosed with one which
is just amazing. So these are the kids that may
have been and also if you're gifted you're neurodivergent
so these are kids that might have been in gifted
class that might have been quirky that might
have been amazing musicians artists poets they
may have had trouble socializing but they found
their quirky group their nerdy group you know
that played the games, I don't even know them,
Dungeons and Dragons or whatever, right? So...
but they were different than maybe the majority
of the kids, so they never got assessed or evaluated.
Then they get into an intimate relationship,
a romantic relationship, where they feel overwhelmed
and they wonder why. And the reason is that now
you're with one person who you have to socialize
with, who you have some physical intimacy with,
you have to do finances with, that's executive
function issues, you're going to go on vacation
with them, and there's going to be lots of changes
in your environment. And a lot of autistic people
thrive on routine and rituals. And so for the
first time in your life, you're like, oh, my
gosh, I'm not able to function the way I could
maybe at school, at work, where there was routine,
where I knew what my role was. And I love this
person. but what the heck is going on? And then
you find something on social media and you realize
that you're part of the lost generation and I
can't tell you how many couples I've met who
are on the verge of divorce and then they find
out that one or both of them is neurodivergent
and they they work with me or somebody else and
I can help them translate what is going on and
how it is related to their neurological differences.
And it's like, you know, a hundred different
light bulbs going off. It changes their lives.
And so what I would say to folks out there, if
any of this sounds like what you're experiencing
in your relationship, or you see somebody in
your family experiencing this, or a friend, you
know, check out the Neurodiverse Love Podcast.
Do some Googling on the internet about neurodiverse
relationships of the lost generation. Excellent.
Oh my gosh. Thank you so much. Lightbulbs are
going off in my head too. I was like, oh my gosh,
maybe this is Y, X, Y, and Z. I really appreciate
that. Thank you, Mona. And I'm really excited.
I'm going to listen to your podcast as well,
for sure. Awesome. Yeah, I love that. And Tina,
you know, you co -lead as a faculty member, you
co -lead the USC Neurodivergent Student Affinity
Group. As you mentioned, you started your parent
affinity group at your daughter's school. Can
you talk about why these groups are important
and what they offer? Yes, yes. And, you know,
I think one thing with these groups that are
so important for those who are neurodiverse.
you know, as well as your, you know, podcast
to Mona is that it makes you, I think for the
students, it really makes them feel not alone,
right? It normalizes the experience. There's
just, again, I'm going back to autism, a lot
of myths out there. It, you know, provides education
to the whole myth is that those on the autism
spectrum do not want to have relationships. They'd
rather be alone, right? That could be far from
the case. In fact, with the study that myself
and Dr. Deborah Waters -Roman, who I do the affinity
group with, did, we found that students at USC
who are on the autism spectrum actually want
to feel quite isolated and want to have connections.
In fact, we used to have a group called, I think
it was Neurodiverse Trojans. It was like a Facebook
group. It's not active anymore, but we used to
have that. Going back to your question is that's
why we have this affinity group at USC for our
MSW students as well as our DSW students, our
doctoral students, and coming up our BSW students
will be welcomed too so that they can share.
and they can share resources, they can share
experiences. For example, things will come up
about being in placement, being in internship.
For students who get their master's in social
work, they need to do a thousand hours out in
the field doing social work. And so things will
come up in terms of how I communicate with my
supervisor about my learning style. I need my
supervisor to understand I need things more concrete.
Right. I need to be aware if there's going to
be changes. I don't want changes just thrown
on me, because changes and transitions, as Mona
was saying, can be difficult. I want to share
with my supervisor that I'm neurodiverse, that
I'm on autism spectrum. I'm not sure how they're
going to react. How do I share that? Do I share
that? So a lot of those questions come up, and
then others can provide support. And then Dr.
Deborah and myself, we provide kind of that guidance,
that facilitation too. So it's been just a wonderful
group. The same thing with the parent group at
my daughter's school. We share resources. We
share, gosh, we need to get this testing and
get this service. The testing is so expensive.
What do I do? Or I need this additional service.
Where can I go? Everything's so expensive. I
don't know what to do. So we... Share that. It's
interesting now, more people are self -identifying,
as Mona was saying, as being neurodiverse. In
the past, it had been more through diagnosis,
having to get these tests, right? Test for ADHD.
tests for being on the autism spectrum. Now more
people are self -identifying but as you know
Holly since you've worked in the schools to get
IEP services you have to get testing. I had to
put a lot of my own money in it as a parent you
know because sometimes the school doesn't always
cover that. I also really quickly I worked at
South Central Los Angeles Regional Center another
reason why I'm interested and I know to get testing
there it is quite a process and and we also just
a reminder too as Mona was saying. um you can
go to the regional center anytime during your
life okay and this is for state of california
we have these regional centers and ask for testing
asked to be evaluated um for services for being
on the autism spectrum that doesn't always mean
you're gonna get the services but you can anytime
throughout your life not just in childhood excellent
gosh tina they're so lucky to have you gosh i
yeah oh they're just wow thank you holly And
you're also welcome to join us. One thing about
these groups, it's not just for those that identify
as neurodiverse, it's also for allies, right?
Those that want to support others and want to
learn. due to their own personal reasons or other
reasons or being a professor, you know, you're
you're welcome to join us. This is an open group.
And I do want to just kind of highlight you mentioned,
you know, I did work in schools and specifically
around the topic of bullying. And I know that
a lot of young people, young children who are
on the spectrum have been victims of bullying.
And that has been a real problem for schools
like educators to understand what does that look
like what does that mean and then for parents
who are advocating for their their children on
that topic of bullying and so we we did see that
a lot in schools and and earlier on like you
mentioned you know we didn't know what that was
you know we just you know it was the student
who kind of was odd couldn't make friends was
oh socially And so even that is another whole
topic that maybe we could have a second show
on how do we work with young people in schools?
How can we support? uh you know those young people
from not being bullied that's a whole other topic
that i just wanted to put them yeah tina please
really quickly i will make sure to get back to
mona you know we did do my colleague and i deborah
and i did a social skills group in a school to
address those that are on the autism spectrum
um who are neurodiverse with social skills and
we paired paired them with a peer mentor that
was not identified as being neurodiverse around
the autism spectrum. So it really helped with
that building that relationship and that understanding
because you're right in the schools it's built
for what we call typically developing kids. I'm
just going to use that word and not for those
that are neurodiverse. So it can be overstimulating
for kids. It can be confusing for kids. The social
situation can be confusing. So we need to remember
that to make it inclusive for everybody. Yes,
100 % because there's a lot going on in schools
today. And so we need to prepare our students
and the educators who are working with those
young people. So again, so much is going on.
I want to make sure that we have some time for
talking a little bit about Mona's podcast, which
obviously we started to talk about that. that
she focuses on neurodiverse couples where one
partner is neurodivergent and the other might
be neuro -typical. Can you talk a little bit
more about some of the most common challenges
that these couples experience? I know you mentioned
it a little bit more, but as well as some resources
that might be available for them? Yes, absolutely.
And I want to say something that a lot of people
don't understand. If you have a neurodivergent
child, specifically, an autistic, ADHD, or ADHD
child, probably one of the parents is also autistic,
ADHD, or ADHD. And this is a big issue that's
coming up because what's happening is a parent
or a grandparent is seeing their child's assessment
or evaluation and they're like, I've done that
all my life." So they're understanding that they
are neurodivergent too and many are going and
getting assessed or evaluated so that they can
have accommodations in the workplace or at school
or somewhere else. So I just wanted to mention
that. The podcast is called Neurodiverse Love
and I started it because I really believed there
wasn't enough out there for folks that were struggling
like I was in my marriage. And so for me, the
most important issues are whatever your patterns
are that are challenging you. and your partner.
And for every couple, it's going to be different.
But the ones that keep recurring over and over
again, the more I meet either one or both partners
or the couple together, communication. So one
partner may be focused on very rational and logical
communication. They want the facts, and then
that's it. They don't want to process for long.
And as a social worker who's ADHD and hyperverbal,
I was always processing everything. And that's
not what my ex -husband wanted. So communication
for the non -autistic person can be very emotional
and very process oriented and the two can clash.
Another area is emotional reciprocity. One partner
may be very emotional, the dog just died and
they really need comfort hugging somebody who
can process the emotions that they're having
because this was a family member as far as they
were concerned. And the other partner may say,
well, we can go get a new dog next week. You
know, I don't understand why this is a problem.
And that becomes a conflict because one is very
logical and rational and the other is more emotional.
Another area is socializing. The non -autistic
partner may want to socialize with family and
family events may be very important to them,
going to weddings, going to holiday events, whatever.
And it may cause a lot of stress for the autistic
or neurodivergent partner because that's taking
them away from their routine. They're around
a lot of stimuli, maybe a lot of people that
they don't know. They may have to engage in small
talk. can become a conflict if they don't understand
each other's needs. And then another, I mean,
there's so many different areas, but another
area that keeps recurring is physical intimacy.
And I have couples that one partner may say,
I don't ever want to kiss you again. I don't
like kissing. I don't like hugging. And I will
not hold your hand. And the other partner feels
rejected and doesn't understand what is going
on. But when they look under the hood and they
see what their sensory sensitivity or preferences
are, maybe it's that the autistic or ADHD partner
doesn't like kissing because they don't like
French kissing, or they don't like kissing for
more than 10 seconds, and their other partner
wants to be kissing for a long time. And so there
are folks out there who are neurodivergent and
specialize in this and can help couples, because
I can't tell you how many couples I work with.
who are no longer engaging in any physical intimacy,
find out they're a neurodiverse couple, and then
either come to me or somebody else for help and
realize that it's these sensory sensitivities
that need to be addressed, haven't been. And
so they're causing literal physical discomfort
oftentimes for the neurodivergent partner. So
there's so many different things, but those are
the patterns that I see over and over again.
And somebody hearing this might... recognize
themselves or their partner and say, I think
we're a neurodiverse couple. They can come to
my podcast, Neurodiverse Love, anywhere you listen
to podcasts, and then I've just released the
Neurodiverse Love docuseries, and it's four episodes,
and the first episode aired on Valentine's Day,
and you can find the link on my website. So I'm
really excited that there's more information,
and oh, I wanted to share one other thing. I
do support groups for the non -autistic partners.
They're free. I've been doing them for five years,
and you can find more information. on my website,
but I also do couple support groups. And what's
wonderful about the couple support groups, those
are $50, but you have never probably met another
neurodiverse couple and known it. So there's
never more than eight couples. And so you're
in a Zoom room with people you've never met.
And as they're talking, they're sharing their
stories. You're like, oh my gosh, I've never
met this person. I've never met this couple.
And they're literally telling our story. And
you know how wonderful group work is, right?
And this is like light bulbs going off for all
these couples. Yeah. Amazing. Wow, Mona. I'm
really excited. And this is such an incredible
discussion. I wish we had more time, but we're
going to have to start wrapping up. So therefore,
I would really like to end on a question for
both of you. We'll start with Tina. Is there
anything else that you that you want our listeners
to know about this topic that I haven't asked
about or just kind of a point to bring it home
for the listeners. We'll start with Tina and
then Mona. It's been such a pleasure, Mona, being
in this podcast with you. And then of course,
Holly, the wonderful facilitator of the podcast.
I think the most important thing and what I've
seen in my teaching and also my interest in neurodiversity,
my own personal experience is if you meet one
person who's neurodiverse, you've met one person
who's neurodiverse. I'm going to again talk to
him about my dear friend. Deborah, who actually
shared that statement with me. And you are right.
I think we have to really be careful about kind
of these images, these myths we have about people
on the autism spectrum, people who are neurodiverse
that we may get from at least for me, I got it
from media. early on, back in the 80s and 90s,
and when I didn't really understand, Rain Man,
the movie, right? So, you know, those sorts of
things. We had to be really careful and do our
own, do our own work, do our own, you know, listen
to Mono's podcast, be curious about it. I always
remind my students to do that. I know we're talking
about more of it in our classes. I have students
that have accommodations that come to me and
share about their neurodiversity and how it is
for them. Okay. I think the biggest thing is
how do I share that I am neurodiverse? You know,
will they, would there be judgment? How do I
explain that? So I that that's probably the one
thing I really hope to take away from this is,
is kind of to look at neurodiversity in a different
way and to understand it more. Again, it's like
that umbrella with the different identities and
also you know, diagnoses as, you know, social
worker. I'd say diagnoses too. Yeah, so thanks
Holly. I appreciate that. Mona, any final thoughts
for our listeners? Yeah, I'd like to thank both
of you too, Tina and Holly. It's been a great
discussion. I agree. I think one, I agree with
what Tina said. I think one of the most important
things is curiosity and patience. and a growth
mindset because if you're in a neurodiverse relationship,
you are literally in a brand new relationship
than the one you started with. When you fell
in love with your partner, you did not know who
they really were and they did not know who they
really were if they're neurodivergent and part
of the lost generation. I think without the curiosity,
without the patience, and without the growth
mindset, I think it's going to be really hard
to have a healthy relationship moving forward.
forward because there's going to be a lot more
judgment and anger and bitterness and all of
that. And so I just recommend everybody come
to my website, neurodiverselove .com because
I have so many amazing resources. I have a list
of, I can't even tell you how many books on neurodiverse
relationships. I have links to other podcasts
and other YouTube channels that might be helpful
and access to the Neurodiverse Love podcast in
the docuseries. So there are so many more resources
out there than I had access to in 2017 when I
found out. So it's been a great journey to share
so much and to see more resources out there for
neurodiverse couples. So thank you both. It's
been really, really fun. Fantastic. Thank you
so much. So many wonderful golden nuggets taken
away from today's discussion. So thank you, Tina.
Thank you, Mona, for joining us for a wonderful
discussion. If you would like to learn more about
the USC Social Work programs, please visit dworakpeck.usc.edu.
Or if you would like to network with our guests
regarding their work or want to support our transformative
research and programs, please email us at listenuppeople@usc.edu.
Thank you.