and welcome to Listen Up People, a podcast of
the USC Suzanne Dworak-Peck School of Social
Work. I'm Dr. Holly Priebe Sotelo, Associate
Teaching Professor of Practicum Education and
your host for the second season of this podcast.
Today, we're going to cover a timely and important
topic during this especially challenging time
in our democracy, social work and public policy,
and how deeply they intersect. Social workers
have the ability to accurately and unapologetically
inform policy that often bridge the gaps between
community, community needs, and the government
action to build a more just society. I'd also
like to add that I recently received my doctorate
in public policy planning and development, and
I also coordinate all the macro based practicum
internships for our school. So this is a topic
that's very near and dear to my heart. I'm excited
to have have two special guests who will expand
on this topic and it's important during this
critical time. So I'm glad to get right into
the introduction so we can get this conversation
started. I'd like to welcome Sam Mistrano, Associate
Teaching Professor and colleague at
USC Social Work. He's an expert in public policy
and policy practice and holds a Juris Doctorate
in law. And Dr. Melissa Bird, a USC alumna who
is currently a candidate for US representative
in Oregon's fourth congressional district. Congratulations,
and this is very exciting. So great to have you
both. Thank you for having me. Thank you so much.
Fantastic. So I'd like to get started if it's
OK to ask something a little personal about you
and how you became interested in this policy
work, as it gives our listeners a little more
insight into your backgrounds. So let's start
with Sam, if that's OK, and then we'll go to
Melissa. Hi. After I graduated from law school
from the University of Minnesota, my first job
was with the American Civil Liberties Union of
the National Office in DC, where I worked on
a lot of policy, of course. And then I transferred
over to the ACLU of Southern California to be
a legislative director. And after many, many
years in LA, the School of Social Work I asked
if I wanted to part -time teach a policy course
and 23 years later I'm a full -time associate
professor here and the thing I want to leave
with you and with our listeners is that the reason
I've stayed so long is that this profession,
the profession of professional social workers
is a prime profession that exists to make society
better, make families better, communities better,
societies better. And there's no other profession
I've interacted with that has that kind of mission.
And so I'm always very excited every semester
I teach some level of policy classes to interact
with grad students who are at least open to,
if not like Melissa, motivated to become elected
and make decisions. Excellent. Thank you, Sam.
I didn't know that about UNC. Now I'm learning
something new. Thank you, Sam. Melissa, please.
Yeah, so I was getting my master's degree back
in 2001. Dear God. So long ago. When I was getting
my master's degree, I entered my MSW program
thinking I was going to be a play therapist because
I had been a preschool teacher and I wanted to
work with kids. I took my first policy class
from a woman named Dr. Emma Gross at the University
of Utah. I was like, what is this policy? I was
hooked. At the same time, I was doing the very
first research in Utah for my research methods
class about homeless LGBTQ plus youth. in Utah.
And I asked Dr. Gross and also my research professor,
Dr. Karen Frost, who both became mentors to me
eventually, if there were any jobs and policy.
And I remember Dr. Gross saying, you're going
to have to move to DC to do that. And what happened
was that I did that research on homeless youth.
And our law said you can't shelter a youth. for
longer than eight hours without parental consent
or emancipation. And I'd work long enough in
child welfare to know that we didn't actually
have an emancipation law on the books. And so
this is pre -Google. And so using Bruce Jansen's
model in one of my policy books, I wrote the
Emancipation of a Minor Bill on my dining room
table. I got I called the Child Welfare League
of America and figured out what states had emancipation
statutes, went line by line in all those statutes
and picked the ones I thought would fit for Utah.
And I knew a legislator and I called her and
I said, I think I just wrote a bill. Will you
sponsor it? And she's like, that's not how this
works. And I said, well, I'm going to get it
to you anyway. So I printed it and took it to
her. Maybe I emailed it to her. I don't know
This is like Yahoo days, right? But anyway, she
called me back and she said You wrote a bill
And now you got to learn how it becomes a law.
And so I taught myself how a bill becomes a law
and passed it into law a couple of years later.
And that was my foray. I mean, like I was literally
sitting at my dining room table writing this
bill. And what happened from that was that I
developed so many relationships in the Utah legislature
that eventually I got hired by Planned Parenthood
to be their chief lobbyist for the federal and
state level for the state of Utah. And that led
into me coming to USC to get my PhD and do research
on how women navigate religious stigma to get
abortion and contraception in rural California.
My dissertation, of course, was built on this
framework of macro practice. One of the things
I learned from this whole trajectory, and now,
of course, I'm running for Congress in the Democratic
primary here in Oregon's fourth congressional
district. But one of the things that I've learned
across this trajectory is how accessible policymaking
is for people. If you have an idea that's going
to change the world, you can take it to your
elected officials because That's actually democracy
in action. And it was a great honor to actually
work with Dr. Bruce Janssen while I was at USC.
The whole thing culminated on itself. And I think
that being able to work with Sam and the work
that I did with our policy classes at SC, I want
people to know how accessible policy making is.
that it's for all of us. I could just highlight
that what Melissa was saying. That's one of the
biggest things in my graduate level policy classes
is to destigmatize and defear. students understanding
of the word lobbying or running for office or
making an impact, it's almost a psychological
hurdle rather than a real life hurdle. And once
you, like Melissa was just sharing, and I've
noticed it for decades now, once one has a little
bit of experience practicing their professional
voice, I'm not saying it becomes addictive like
it did to Melissa, but it becomes a part of your
longer career that you'd no longer have that
same hesitancy before your eyes were opened about
how easy it is to be a part of things policy
wise. Wow. I am just, I know this is just audio
only, but I'm just like snapping and so excited
because this is literally what I hear from many
of our students who say, you know, I don't know
anything about macro -social or I don't know
anything about policy. What do you mean? And
so I love your stories how, and Melissa, how
you just said that it just kind of stumbled upon
you. You were inspired by, you know, a really
powerful professor that made you kind of see
the light, which is where you are today. Yeah,
Sam, please. I'd like to ask Melissa a question,
actually. It sounds like you came to the social
work table already interested in bigger picture.
Issues, but my specific question is do you remember
how it felt when you were first sort of learning
clinical? Related festival social work. What's
it a huge switch for you to transition from clinical
minded? I know she's like forever ago to more
of a policy focus Do you remember that sort of
transition? Well, I think yes and thanks for
the question I think the switch was all of a
sudden I realized that with this degree I could
impact so many more people than just doing group
work or one on one clinical work and I thought.
My God, if I can write these bills that are going
to help. Like for years, I got updates about
how many kids we've gotten emancipated and gotten
services. And it's got to be in the thousands
now for sure. But like realizing that through
all of these pieces of legislation that I've
passed, I'm not just impacting a small number
of people, I'm impacting a large number of people.
And it has been such an honor and a privilege
to teach social work students that, you know,
they're coming to me when I was teaching social
justice. advocacy classes, when I was talking
to them, they'd be frustrated about their clinical
work. And I'd be like, well, did you know that's
actually related to policy? And here's how. And
so all of a sudden, we're creating these. I think
if we didn't call it macro, it would help destigmatize
it for people because it feels so big when we
call it that. But when we help social workers
and also other advocates in the community recognize
that when we ask a community what it needs, instead
of assuming what they need, all of a sudden we're
able to create policies that are created by the
community in a relational aspect. And so the
switch wasn't hard because I want to impact as
many people as possible throughout my lifetime.
And that's what policy gave me. Excellent. Wow,
which is, you know, so transformative in our
lives, which really leads me to this next question,
too, that I want to give both an opportunity
to answer if you want. But I'll start with Sam,
if you can explain what it means. You started
to already talk about it, but what it means by
policy practice and forming policy within the
social work practice. And two, how does this
translate to your teaching and preparing students
to take a deeper dive? to affect social change?
Well, as Melissa just was sharing, clinical social
workers, their jobs and the structure of their
work and how they help is all dictated by policy,
funding, bigger picture issues that she was just
sharing. And once that connection is made, a
clinical social worker, an LCSW, someone who
focuses on therapy or groups or working with
school children and elementary schools, etc.
One becomes more aware of how, like, the organization
they work with makes decisions that impact their
caseload, for example, how bigger funding streams
fund programs and implementation strategies that
are more effective or not. So it actually is
more seamless than the words micro, meso, macro,
indi - So I also want to reinforce what Melissa
said there, too. I mean, the way we talk about
these issues sort of makes it a little further
away. And that's how the foundation policy courses,
which I lead for our school, are sort of structured,
is to introduce grad students seeking their masters
of social work in order to first see the bigger
picture like that. Second, practice having a
professional voice on these issues because not
everybody's a born advocate who's loud and talking
all the time, so it's a practice. And then everybody
practices either publicly testifying at a public
forum or lobbying, and that's a first -year class.
And that little, to conclude, that little bit
is enough to open the door that even full -time
LCSW social workers 10 years into their career
are motivated to spend about 5 % of their career
working on issues they care about like this,
whether it's volunteering, I don't want to just
say go to marches or whatever, but having that
part of their brain more open. So that's how
I try to frame it and get it across. Fantastic.
Thank you, Sam. Melissa, would you care to add?
Yeah. I mean, I think that one of the things
that just is so profound to me about the social
work profession as a whole is how uniquely suited
we are to engage in policy advocacy because of
the work we're doing in communities with people.
And I think we also have an innate ability to
approach people from where they're at, not where
we want them to be. And that makes us an extremely
effective advocate. Right. Like when I approach,
even as I'm approaching my campaign, right, like
I'm going out and talking to voters and all my
social work skills are coming into play. Right.
I'm listening to people. I'm hearing what they
have to say. I'm thinking creatively of policy
issues that we can use to address this. And so
the issues that are coming up for voters. And
I think that social workers are so uniquely suited
to listening to people and also being really
creative and thinking about how can we develop
supports for people. And there has never been
a more critical time in this country in our lived
history. I think since World War two for social
workers to be deeply engaged, not just in protest,
not just in engaging with our communities in
whatever ways we're called to do, but to really
be thinking critically about how the people that
we are interacting with are being deeply affected
by the decisions made. at a federal level, because
what's happening at the federal level is so impacting
our school boards, our cities, our county, our
states. Like it goes all throughout the system.
And I think that social workers and other advocacy
folks that work in social services would just
remember that we are so uniquely suited to do
this work because we are trained to approach
people where they are at. I just want to highlight
that also, Melissa, that's fantastic that a unique
aspect of professional social work is a person
and environment orientation. And you know what?
The longer I do this, it's been forever now.
That's a life skill. That's not just a social
work tool, and all other professions should have
that. We're very used to, and especially as Melissa
was implying, the last many years of our federal
government, we're used to a sort of command and
control model of governance, at least trying
to govern like that, apparently, where decision
makers parachute in with their checklist and
their commands. And that's the polar opposite
of the entire basis of the social work profession,
where we start with the person. And so it's an
incredibly and powerful tool, both professionally,
but also in each of our lives. Excellent. And
I can't stress enough the importance of the listening,
those skills, the reflective listening, right?
And knowing what our constituents, what society
is needing. And so, which leads me to wanting
to understand, I know, Melissa, you're running
for office and what are you hearing on the campaign
trails? What are people asking for or needing
and what's been your strategy? I think that it's
changed. I announced I was running on July 1st,
and so I really started calling voters in August.
And what they were worried about in August has
completely transformed now that we're here in
January. And there is a consistent through line
about housing, about education, and about health
care. That's a consistent through line. But it
was... people really worried about reproductive
justice issues, people really concerned about
the economy and how things were impacting them.
a little bit. And then we moved into the issue
of taking, you know, stopping SNAP benefits.
We moved into the government shutdown and all
of a sudden people became really worried about
food access. Right. And how our kids are going
to be eating at school. And then now people are
100 percent concerned about ice and what's happening
with ice and immigration and the attacks on people's
bodily autonomy in that way. But one of the things
that I am recognizing and this is where I just
think it's so powerful the social work training
that we have is that Sam, I'm so glad you brought
up this sort of top -down approach to governance.
And I have this great idea as a congressperson,
and so I'm going to tell the community what I'm
going to do. What I am noticing as I'm talking
to people is I'm going in and saying, well, what
do you need? Because this is a very rural district.
There's two cities here, Eugene and Corvallis,
but most of this district is rural. And so I'm
going in and asking people in rural areas, what
do you need? And they're like, nobody has ever
asked us this question. First of all, nobody
has ever come here, but nobody's also asked me
the question. And so people are really responding
to this idea of, well, what do you all need on
the coast? Because what you mean on the coast
is not what we need in Corvallis or Eugene. And
so this is what I really urge people to do is
really start to think about asking your community
what it needs instead of assuming what people
need, which is very much how we do grant making
and policy work from this top down approach.
We are being called to get back into community
with each other and be in relationship with each
other so we can really identify how like this
is why I think mutual aid is becoming such a
powerful force because that we're really connecting
with people on the ground. And one more thing
I want to add. Is that we need more people in
elected office who actually understand the programs
that they are cutting right now. So my family
is on Medicaid. We have been on food stamps.
I'm married to a disabled veteran. My kids are
still in public school. I have a daughter that
saddled with student loan debt. You know, like
we need people in particularly in Congress who
actually understand that the actions that are
being taken at a federal level impact our families
so deeply. And I think that if we could get more
social workers just engaged in this process.
First of all, they'd realize how accessible our
elected officials are because they are accessible.
Even at the highest level of government, they're
accessible. And that is a switch that has flipped
for me since I started my career 25 years ago,
is that I used to tell people to really keep
things local. And the federal government's going
to federal government. And now I'm realizing
how deeply we need to be involved at all the
different levels of government. Excellent. Oh
my gosh, Melissa, you hit on so many different
important points. One obviously is the unintended
consequences that people are when they vote or
not vote, all the different policies that get
impacted and that equals to lives being impacted.
And I appreciate the re -emphasis about listening
and how important that is to listen to your constituents
about what they need and not assume. So, which
is kind of a social work trait that we always
say, you know, start where your clients are,
right? I hear so often about, you know, voting,
you know, oh, why should I vote? It doesn't matter.
And so trying to reinstill that, that yes, your
vote does matter. So I know we have so much to
cover here. And I really also want to just kind
of ask right now, it seems kind of obvious, but
I'm just going to put it out there for our listeners.
And I'll start with Sam, if you don't mind. What
do you feel like are the most critical legislative
changes over the past year? And what are the
potential long term consequences? Very good.
I guess I have a two tier response. Response
number one about sort of the most concerning
aspects of policy right now. The first thing,
and we sort of have been talking about it less
overtly today, is that the tone of the federal
government is this tone that really creates disengagement.
a trillion miles away. Like how ICE is conducting
itself as a professional force that has, you
know, an important role but the way that they're
doing their role is so offensive and the way
the federal government can really performatively
doing things really turns people off. I don't
know if it's part of the strategy or what have
you and so I think longer term especially with
our students or who are already a little bit
They don't come to school necessarily to get
more engaged with policy. Like I said, it's got
a little mental hump to get over. But once you're
over, like Melissa's demonstrating with her career
in life, you're in. But like it becomes even
harder to approach it because of the tone. That's
part one. And then part two. And again, Melissa
is really setting the stage for all my answers
here. The big, beautiful, bogus Bill. does substantial
harm to America's safety net programs. The SNAP
budget, which is food stamps, which 42 million
people in America use. Moving forward, the federal
budget's cut by a third. and the federal government's
mandating work requirements to get any kind of
food assistance. And the same thing that's going
on in Medicaid. Medicaid is a humongous insurance
program. I know Melissa here in Oregon and in
California, 15 million Californians see doctors
via their Medicaid insurance and requiring work
requirements across the country and making it
harder to access and the wait times are already
really long. Those things are going to further
chip away at our meager safety net program. And
so I think, substantively, those are the things
that I'm highlighting right now is particularly
bad. Thank you, Sam. Would you care to add? Oh,
I sure would. Go get them. SNAP is a great example
because When we think about policy, this isn't
just about those people that rely on the SNAP
benefit itself. The way we decide and determine
whether or not a school district gets free school
breakfast and lunch is determined by the number
of children who are receiving SNAP benefits.
So if you cut SNAP, you also cut free breakfast
and lunch for children in public school. And
I think that's part of the process. So my social
worker brain kicks in and I start to thread the
needle and weave the connections, because that's
what we're trained to do. And I'm over here going
in and testifying at the school board meeting
that that this isn't just about the actual food
stamp benefit. This is actually about making
sure that children don't have access to food
during the day, which makes it more difficult
for them to learn, which makes them more malleable
to the rhetoric that is being spread across the
country. Right. And so so. But that's not overwhelming
to me. That's actually clarifying. And the other
thing I will say is it is not as if I mean, we
have Project 2026 now. It's not as if they have
not laid out the entire playbook for what's going
to happen. And one of my frustrations has been
that there has been no coordinated response,
particularly from the Democratic Party. To what
they are laying out in this blueprint that you
can literally follow and the social worker in
me is going y 'all like Come up with them. So
they're gonna say this they're gonna do this
How are we gonna fight back against it as a unified
front? and I think that is what is missing and
I really truly believe that yes, it feels like
we are drinking out of a violent chaotic fire
hose every single day and also Things are cracking
in this democracy. I spoke at a vigil for democracy
the other night and I said, it's okay. For this
democracy in its current form to be showing us
For the light to be breaking in where it does
not work because any democracy built on slavery
and genocide is Not a democracy of the people
by the people for the people if we want a democracy
for all of the people Then we have to start to
notice where the cracks are in the democracy
and allow it to crumble a little bit I'm not
suggesting it should go away but so that we can
figure out how to rise up collectively and say,
this is the actual government that we want. We
want those separation of powers. We want to be
engaged with our elected officials. And we want
a democracy that is actually representative of
everybody. Amen. Melissa, you've got my vote.
Oh my gosh. I'm with you. This discussion is
so incredible. I know there's a few other questions
I want to make sure we get to for our listeners,
but I know we have a graduate certificate program
that I want to make sure that Sam talks a little
bit about. So Sam, can you just share with us
about this two graduate certificate courses so
that our listeners know a little bit more about
this? And then we're going to start to wrap up
in just a moment. For our listeners who don't
know, the USC School of Social Work, in addition
to when you earn, you seek to earn your Masters
of Social Work, we also offer 12 or 15 different
like more intense areas of study across all kinds
of different modalities. And so we have two joint
certificates between the School of Social Work
and the Gold School of Law at USC. Then one focuses
on administration of social agencies. and the
other focuses on more sort of clinical orientation
to just sort of be clear law students. also take
this and they take social work classes like the
only ones that they've ever taken in addition
to our social work students have an ability to
take law classes and it's really very interesting.
I've had in my time here a couple different people
got joint degrees MSW JD which is very powerful
combination so it's always very exciting when
I talk with social work students explaining what
they can expect on and they have some they can
choose the law classes they take. And it's really
interesting to see a different sort of orientation
towards society, because to conclude, law has
a totally different orientation towards society
than social work does. I know them both, and
I have to share, I prefer the social work orientation.
That's why I've been here for so long. But having
a little bit of a foot inside the legal thinking
is helpful to your skill set. Excellent. Thank
you, Sam, for sharing. And again, I'm so sorry
we're running out of time, but this is such a
rich conversation. So maybe what we can do is
just add if there's anything, and I'll give maybe
Sam first and then Melissa to bring us home,
is if there's anything else that you would like
to share for our listeners that we didn't ask
about. social work and informing policy. What
would you add? Sam, we'll start with you and
then Melissa, you can bring us home. Well, my
my ending thing would be make an argument for
working on issues you care about personally is
a form of self care. Voting, when you do it regularly,
whether you think your vote makes a difference
or not, it's a form of self -care. You're self
-caring your position in society as a person
whose career it is to make things better. And
I would like to conclude in that you do a little
bit of policy work throughout your career, not
running for office and making your entire career,
but partially. portion of your career and it's
a form of self -care you'll feel better in the
long term about your role here in America. Excellent,
thank you Sam. And Melissa? I want to say that
I think voting is a form of soul care. because
what we are craving is this connection to the
self in a way that we think we are making an
impact in the world. And I have heard from thousands
of voters who are so frustrated with this two
party system that they've left the parties. And
what I want to remind people is that often the
primaries are closed primaries, which is another
barrier to engaging in democracy. And so if you
are looking at candidates who are inspiring you,
if you want to see more progressive candidates
remember to pay attention to your voter registration
because for people to be able to vote for me
in the May 19th primary here in Oregon they have
to be a registered Democrat and people are telling
me they are changing their voter registration
to vote for me which is which I honor like it
makes me weep I have cried numerous times with
people because they have given me that honor
that is sacred voting is sacred and I have voted
in every election since I turned 18 no matter
what the election was. So I just really want
people to leave this conversation inspired and
what Sam said is so important, what lights you
on fire, what makes you feel passionate, that
thing that gives you the chills when you think
about it, go and follow it because that is how
my career has been made for sure. And follow
the thread like if it totally lights you up.
There are ways that you can make a difference
and I am happy to mentor anybody who wants to
go into I've said this my whole career If you
want someone to talk to or you have a question,
I am totally accessible to people And I just
really want people to be just guided by the thing
that gives them the chills and makes them feel
passionate Because that we can't save the whole
world. We can't make a difference with all of
the things But the thing that is most immediate
to you is the thing that you go and do I have
the chills and I am ready to go out and vote.
Let's do it, right? Thank you so very much. I
just really am taking away, you know, that public
policy equals soul care. right oh my gosh that
sounds like a t -shirt we need to put that on
the t -shirt right but anyway i just want to
say thank you thank you thank you Sam and Melissa
for joining us for this incredible discussion
i do believe at some point we're going to need
to bring you both back as the world turns right?
If you would like more information about our
work on public policy please visit our website
at dworakpeck.usc.edu. If you are interested
in our graduate certificates in law and advocacy
or social work administration that Sam teaches,
please visit dworakpeck.usc.edu/graduatecertificates.
And you can learn more about Melissa's
campaign for Congress at melissabirdforcongress.com.
And if you would like to network with our
guests regarding their work and want to support
our transformative research and programs, please
email us at listenuppeople@usc.edu.
Thank you.