Hello and welcome to Listen Up People, a podcast
of the USC Suzanne Dworak-Peck School of Social
Work. I'm Dr. Holly Priebe Sotelo, Associate
Teaching Professor of Practicum Education and
your host for the second season of the podcast.
Before I get started, I just really want to give
a quick shout out to my predecessor, Dr. Eric
Rice. He did such a wonderful job hosting our
first season and we're grateful for him for giving
us such a solid start. I was a guest on one of
the episodes on the topic of human trafficking,
and I enjoyed it so much. And now I'm honored
to be launching the first episode of the second
season. So I want to say thank you, Eric, all
the best to you for your new venture, and I will
try to proudly carry this torch you have passed
to me. So today we're going to explore the increasingly
important role that school social workers play
in fostering students' social and emotional well
-being for productive learning in the classroom.
School social workers provide a valuable support
to students struggling with truancy or academic
performances due to a variety of factors that
may include issues in their home life or exposure
to traumatic events. And my background is also
as a school social worker in K -12 public schools,
for 18 years. So this is a subject that's very
near and dear to my heart. My guests today have
experienced many different sides of school social
work in different educational settings in training
and education of school social workers and on
the ground in classrooms. Dr. Kerry Doyle, associate
teaching professor and my colleague at the USC
Susanne Dworak-Peck School of Social Work is
an expert in the area of educational needs of
school social workers including trauma -informed
training. And Dr. Maria Ruelas, a USC MSW alumna
who serves as a district social worker for the
Lawndale Elementary School District in Los Angeles
and was named the 2025 School Social Worker of
the Year by the Los Angeles County Office of
Education. Congratulations to you, Maria. We
are so proud of you. Okay, so it is great to
see you both. It is my honor to I feel like I'm
in a room with friends. So this is going to be
a great conversation. So something Dr. Eric Rice
started off with his discussions was to ask a
more personal question, which I would really
like to continue with you both. It really helps
us to understand what your interests were. How
did you come into this work? And so I'd like
to start with you, Kerry, with how did you become
involved in school social work or social work
in the educational settings? Great. Thanks, Holly.
So I actually had a really circuitous route to
social work in general. So my undergraduate degree
was in political science with the intent to go
to law school. But in my final year, I decided
that being a lawyer really wasn't a right fit
for me. So for a few years, I worked in the insurance
industry. And weirdly enough, that actually was
helpful because I learned the ins and outs of
Medicaid and Medicare. So it actually helped
me in the long run be a better social worker.
But for the first few years, I was really lost.
I didn't know what social work was. I didn't
know what I wanted to do. And during that time,
I would visit my sister who was a school social
worker. And this was back in the late 1990s.
I could visit her at school. And so I would go
multiple days a week to have lunch with her.
And I was able to see firsthand the amazing work
that she was doing. And I fell in love with school
social work. And my first internship, my first
year in my MSW program was at the New York City
schools. And I realized right then and there
I wanted to be a school social worker. But I
returned back to my home state. And I live in
a small New England state. And at that time,
there was limited school social work positions.
And there wasn't a lot of turnover. So I actually
did not have my first school based job until
12 years post MSW. However, during that 12 years,
I worked extensively with children, adolescents,
families in school adjacent settings. So I became
familiar with many of the school districts. I
really honed my mental health skills and interventions.
So when my time came, I felt really not only
excited, but prepared to be a high school social
worker. So it was a circuitous route, but I got
there. I love that. I did not know that about
you, Carrie. Thank you so much for sharing. And
Maria, I mentioned your recent social worker
of the year award, but this is actually your
second time receiving this honor. You first received
it in 2018 from the California Association of
Social Workers. When did you discover that school
social work was for you. It was truly solidified
that I wanted to go into schools when I entered
my first year of internship at the USC School
of Social Work and I really got a front row seat
to what it was to work in systems. The systems
perspective of social work really really encompassed
what I was looking for in terms of mental health,
being preventative, working with community and
the family support. And I never thought school
social workers could be in schools until I had
my internship experience. And that's when I realized
there is a space for us. There is important value
in the work that we do because we do bring in
that systems building. perspective. And so we
look at issues not only within the four walls
of a school, but outside the community, the school,
the relationships that are within the school.
So it's far more than individual counseling and
facilitating groups. There is a space for us
to also be in leadership roles and focus on things
like program development and ensuring we have
workforce pipelines and strengthening mental
health supports across the entire district, not
just one school. And so that's when I realized
this was a space for me. Right on. Oh my god,
Maria. I'm so proud of you because you're a legend
in the schools. Just everywhere and so I'm just
so proud and and you really are did some groundbreaking
work there doing macro bringing in other social
workers which we will talk about more in just
a moment. So thank you so much for sharing that.
So I'm going to go back to Kerry. So Kerry,
I'd really like to start this question out for
you. I want our listeners to know that our school
is one of few schools in the United States that
we offer a specialized curriculum and certification
in school and educational settings. Can you give
our listeners a general overview of what it means
to specialize as a school social worker and what
the curriculum and certification is that our
school offers? Absolutely, Holly. So when we're
talking about specializing as a school social
worker, what we're really talking about, in my
opinion, is about working at the intersection
of mental health, education, families, and as
Maria mentioned, systems. So school social workers
are trained to not only support students at the
individual level, but also through a broader
systems land. The school social work role is
incredibly dynamic. It includes mental health
intervention, but it also includes crisis response,
attendance and engagement, special education
services, collaborating with teachers and administrators
in order to address systemic barriers that might
impact student learning. So it's a very dynamic
role that requires multiple skills. So it's essential
that school social workers go into the setting
understanding that. In terms of preparation for
this role at USC, our curriculum offers a school
and education settings track, which offers specialized
coursework. as well as a school -based practicum
where students have the opportunity to integrate
what they're learning in the classroom setting
into actually a school -based internship, a real
school environment. We also offer what's known
as the PPSC credential. And so that's the pupil
personnel services credential. And for those
of you who are not familiar with that, that is
what the state of California requires for a social
worker to work in public education settings.
And the wonderful thing is in our curriculum,
USC embeds the PPSC requirements directly into
the MSW program when students select that track
and the PPSC option. So students can potentially
graduate with not only their MSW, but their PPSC
credential. But also we go a step further. So
for graduates who are already working in skills
that also want to continue to develop, we also
offer a postgraduate certification in trauma
-informed practices and educational settings,
which is a wonderful continuing education opportunity
for those of you who are already working in schools.
I think, Holly, what I really appreciate about
our approach at USC is we're preparing school
social workers not only to engage on an individual
level, but in complex systems through our specialization,
but also through our curriculum. So we offer
integrative social work and integrative social
work. covers all three levels of social work.
So we're not micro social workers or macro social
workers that are siloed. We are social workers
and being a school social worker demands that
we operate on all levels of practice, micro,
mezzo and macro.
I am so glad that you mentioned integrative social work and thank you so much
because this is for those who are entering or
wanting to learn more about it is that you're
given an experience across a wide spectrum to
working in this school setting. So love that
you integrated that in that USC. I'm so proud
that we're offering that for our society here.
And Maria, do you want to add anything? I completely
agree. First hand, I'm an alumni from the school
and I can attest to that. Those are the experiences
that brought me into school social work. I did
not know I was going to go into school social
work and because of the experiences and the integrative
systems level thinking, that is what got me here.
And now that I'm here, I'm a leader in the field
and I'm really happy to learn that that's something
that the school is actively working on is developing
that for their students. Yes, yes, Maria. And
you know, as a follow -up, I'd really like to
hear some of the main issues that you, that students
and teachers that are impacting schools in your
area. And is there a shortage of school social
workers? Every day that I walk into a school,
I am reminded of the importance of school social
workers. And because our school district has
been very progressive and very supportive of
school social workers, I'd like to say that in
our school district, we don't have a shortage
of them. However, in going to conferences and
speaking to other colleagues, speaking to other
leaders in education, it is almost mind blowing
to know that there's school social workers, that
there's one at each school site here in Lawndale.
versus in other school districts, when I was
hired, there was one social worker, which was
me, for an entire school district. And I remember
how difficult that was for me at the start. And
so it is very difficult. There is a shortage.
The ratio to students is not what we want to
see. And so I do see that there's gaps in our
schools. And I believe that building that strong
partnership and different pipelines to get school
social workers into school is important. For
instance, having interns, graduate level interns
that are entering the workforce and training
them so that they're able to experience what
school social work is like. And then maybe at
their school districts, they're able to be of
service to their school communities. But yes,
there is a shortage with school based mental
health professionals. And I think it's it's an
area that we definitely need to uncover and talk
about more because leaders in educational settings
need to know what school social workers are able
to offer. And that is more than just one on one
counseling or therapy. Right and you know Maria
maybe if we can expand on that just a little
bit more for our listeners who they don't really
know what what is a social worker why are they
in schools isn't it about reading and learning
and why why a social worker and that that's a
question I want all our listeners to know if
you could just kind of give an example like a
day -to -day what a social worker might be doing
in a school. Yes that's a very good question
I think that here in Lawndale it looks very different
in that When our first Latina superintendent
started here, she's from Baldwin Park. She came
to Lawndale and she's like, Maria, what are the
social workers? What do you do? My response was,
well, the social workers here in Lawndale are
like pseudo -administrators. In that, yes, they
do provide one -on -one therapy to students whenever
it's needed, but that's not their primary role.
They don't have a caseload per se. Our interns,
because we have built capacity and partnerships
with universities, our interns are the ones that
obtain that training and that address the mental
health needs of our students with the supervision
of our school social workers. In addition to
that, our mental health providers are also taking
in a lot of referrals and meeting with students.
Social workers are facilitating groups, they're
facilitating parent workshops to engage the school
community. In addition to crisis management,
in addition to implementation of positive behavioral
interventions and supports, that's short. or
in short, PBIS. PBIS is a framework that is used
in the state of California to create community
environment in schools. And so that's implemented
with the help of our social work team. Attendance,
that's another issue in public education, especially
post pandemic, in that a lot of students have
developed mental health issues. And social workers,
instead of just meeting with a student at school,
they go outside of the school. They go to the
parents' homes. They do home visits. And they
ask, what's going on? How can we help? And because
they have that mental health... background they're
able to assess. Is it anxiety? Is it depression?
Is it housing instability? Because once you get
to the home, you realize, wow, I didn't know
this child lived in a motor home. I didn't know
this child, you know, lived across the street
in their car. So that's the way our social workers
in Lawndale are able to address the different
systems. So not only individually, but in group
settings, working with parents. working with
teachers and the school administrators to implement
these initiatives at the school site. Excellent.
Thank you, Maria. And you know, one of the things
I remember as social workers in the schools is
that trying to explain it to people who are not
social workers of what we do is that kind of
thinking about the concept that you can't teach
an empty chair. So if a child isn't able to come
to school, if a child isn't able to eat, if they
haven't slept, if they are experiencing abuse,
they're not going to focus and they're not going
to learn. And so these are the things that as
a school social worker, I just know that children
won't learn when their basic needs have not been
met. And so. It is so crucial that we continue
to support social work in schools because there's
so many gaps that are impacting our students,
not just here in Los Angeles County, but around
the nation. This next question I'm going to ask
Kerry first is that I want to recognize that
we live in an era where gun violence in schools
has become a reality that too many schools have
had to face. And so Kerry, I know that you've
done a lot of work in this area, including your
doctorate dissertation that focused on the experiences
of school social workers providing crisis response
and recovery following a targeted gun violence.
Can you please talk to us about the findings
of your study? and why school social workers
are so important to the response and recovery
process? My focus was really on preparation.
How are we preparing school social workers to
interact and provide support within a setting
that is increasingly becoming more violent? So
in addition, so my research focused on mass gun
violence, but there's violence that occurs. in
schools on smaller scales than mass gun violence.
And so my question was, how are we preparing
our school social workers for crisis response
and recovery? My doctoral research focused on
the experiences of school social workers who
provided actual response and recovery after their
school experience on violence. And it was a qualitative
study and it really focused on did they feel
prepared? What skills did they rely on and how
did it impact them personally and professionally?
And again, I just want to stress School social
workers handle crises on a daily basis outside
of gun violence. So student and staff death,
serious accidents, community violence, natural
disasters. So school social workers are handling
crises on a regular basis. So do they feel prepared
to respond? And one of the most significant findings
in my research was around that. And the majority
of participants only describe themselves as feeling
moderately prepared. to respond to a crisis.
And what really stood out for me was that several
participants struggled to name the specific intervention.
or the theoretical underpinnings for why they
were using that intervention. Instead, they attributed
their response to instinct or intuition rather
than their formal training. And from a social
work education perspective, that's really concerning.
Our work is not just instinctive. We are highly
trained professionals. And being able to name
the interventions and understand why we're using
them is essential for ethical practice and our
professional legitimacy, right? Because As professionals,
we're interfacing with administrators, law enforcement
during a crisis. In addition to how prepared
they felt, many of the participants emphasize
that with trauma, the recovery is not a straight
line. There's always trauma reminders such as
time markers, legal proceedings, media coverage,
or other crises that reactivate the trauma. So
this is a long term process. It's the response
is initial, but then there's recovery. And then
Another finding is around self -care, the impact
personally and professionally. And I went in
thinking, okay, what supports did these professionals
get to why they were providing support to others?
And I was surprised to learn that the biggest
support was being able to connect with their
colleagues who they felt like had a shared experience,
that connection, that relationship. And I think
that as school social workers, it's so important
that we remember the power of relationships.
So as professionals, we're skilled in engagement,
assessment, intervention. But I think it goes
back to what the author, Dr. Judith Herdman said,
that recovery can only take place within the
context of relationships and not occur in isolation.
And I think as social workers, we understand
the importance of connection, relationship, and
also intervention on multiple system levels.
So I think that social workers are uniquely trained
for crisis response and recovery. And I would
echo something Maria said, is that we need a
seat at the table. We need to be at the decision
-makers table because we come from a systems
perspective, we come from a strengths -based
perspective, and we come from a trauma -responsive
perspective. And I would encourage us as school
social workers to be advocates in that area and
try to get a seat at the table. I agree 100%.
Love that. Maria, would you like to add anything?
Yes, I completely 100 % agree that. When I entered
the field of social work in school settings,
I was prepared. The university had prepared me,
my professors had prepared me, and that, yes,
at the root of it all, it comes down to relationships,
relationships with teachers, relationships with
administrators, with parents, with students.
You can't get to the student unless you get to
the parent. We really think systemically, and
I completely agree with what Perry said. There's
so much that we can do with just the connections.
And so integrating that as part of the recovery
process is vital. So excellent. Glad to hear
that. And, you know, I want to shift gears just
a moment and really ask about because we're still
in this recovery. phase from the COVID -19 pandemic
where it's, you know, six years ago. It feels
like it was just yesterday. But Maria, I'd really
like to, you know, just kind of thinking about
there's that lingering debate around whether
or not schools are still feeling impacts from
COVID. Can you share with us how your students
and your district, how your students might be
still impacted if they are, how the schools are
recovering. The pandemic accelerated a lot of
important conversations that social workers were
discussing around mental health, around wellness,
around the whole child support. It became a topic
of conversation that was extremely important
at the time. because students were experiencing
anxiety, grief, uncertainty, isolation. And so
the pandemic really changed the fabric of our
education system. Schools became a safe place
for students to get their meals, to get their
mental health support, their stability, and then
that was taken away. And then six years later,
We see the ripple effects that it's having on
students, on parents, the challenges with attention
span, their emotional regulation. Those are some
of the things that have come up for us after
the pandemic, after seeing that the students
really were affected by this experience. And
so now we've had a lot of conversations about
how can we help our students as a whole. How
can we collaborate with different people within
the school setting so that we could get outcomes?
And I think that's the most difficult part that
administrators have right now is there are multiple
people with various levels of expertise and getting
them together to work collaboratively to support
the students is something that we are working
on. There's been a lot of discussions about like
young people now and some of my contacts still
with with teachers that I work with and principals
and they still see this shift of learners that
are struggling with social emotional you know
attachments and and still having struggles and
they say and they attribute it back to the pandemic
it's like well these young people they grew up
during the time when the pandemic, when they
were so isolated. So there's still, I have heard
from my fellow colleagues and friends that are
in the schools that there is some residual impacts.
Kerry, I don't know if you wanted to add to
that at all and before we start to close up.
Absolutely, it goes back to the whole idea that
trauma is not linear and recovery takes time.
So with trauma, there's impacts in the immediate.
and then there's ongoing impacts. That we're
seeing the continued impact of COVID does not
surprise me. but I am encouraged that as a profession
we're recognizing it and we're developing interventions
and support for these students who were impacted.
Yes, thank you so much. And so as we come to
the end of our discussion today, I'd really like
to ask, I'll start with Kerry first and then
Maria, is there anything else that that we haven't
talked about that I didn't ask about that you
would like our listeners to know about school
social work? My bias is trauma training in schools
and I would encourage any individual that is
interested in school social work to make sure
that you feel that you're prepared. That might
mean taking trainings like psychological first
aid or CBITS, cognitive behavioral intervention
for trauma in schools, or it might be taking
a course in neurobiology of trauma and how trauma
can impact our brains both in the way students
regulate their behaviors and and their emotions
and I think this is critically important because
so often students can be reprimanded for disruptive
behaviors in class and sometimes teachers or
administrators or staff assume that is either
due to oppositionality or due to attentional
difficulties. Oftentimes they'll say oh this
student has ADHD or and what is often overlooked
is the underlying trauma that might be impacting
regulation, emotional and behavioral regulation.
And so my bias is as school social workers, we
need to know the neurobiology of trauma and those
interventions. So we're supporting students,
but not only supporting students, but working
with our educators and our administrators to
develop a trauma responsive. The term trauma
informed is used quite frequently. I steer away
from that term now. One of our colleagues Professor
Lisa Wobbe-Veit, who was a former school social
worker, and she's the crisis recovery consultant
for Marjorie Stoneman Douglas, the most impacted
families. And she has really influenced me to
move away from trauma -informed to trauma -responsive.
It's not enough informed. We have to, at least
as a profession, do our best to influence the
school systems we work within to become trauma
responsive. And just a quick shout out to
Dr. Steve Hydon, the director of schools track,
as well as project specialist, Jenny Kim, who
do an amazing job coordinating the track and
the credential. Excellent. I love that. Thank
you, Kerry. Maria, any final thoughts for our
listeners? Well, I agree that we have to be trauma
responsive, and that's what school social work
is all about. School social workers, they could
be working with a teacher, collaborating with
the administrator, facilitating a parent workshop,
responding to a crisis, and every single day
it looks different. That's what makes it so powerful.
because we're able to advocate for students.
We're able to build systems, problem solve, all
at the same time. And so at its core, this work
is really about hope and possibility. And if
we invest in school social work, we're investing
in students' futures, teachers' support, and
the overall school community. It's more than
a job. It's a calling. It's one of the most meaningful
ways I know to create lasting change. Excellent.
Excellent. I love that. And so thank you, Kerry
and Maria, for joining us for a great discussion
today. To our listeners, if you want to learn
more about social work in schools and the educational
setting, please visit our website dworakpeck.usc.edu/schoolsocialwork
And if you are
interested in our graduate certificate in the
trauma -informed practices in educational settings,
visit dworakpeck.usc.edu/graduatecertificates
Or if you would like to network
with our amazing guests regarding their work
or want to support our transformative research
and programs, please email us at
listenuppeople@usc.edu