Hello, and welcome to Listen Up People, a podcast
of USC Suzanne Dworak-Peck School of Social
Work. I'm Dr. Eric Rice, professor and associate
dean for research. Around the globe, an estimated
27 million people are exploited for labor, services,
and commercial sex. Traffickers prey on some
of the world's most marginalized and vulnerable
individuals, profiting from their plight. This
crisis affects both men and women, boys and girls.
My guests today have dedicated their careers
to preventing and combating human trafficking
with a vision of eradicating trafficking in all
of its forms. It's my pleasure to introduce today
my two colleagues, Dr. Annalisa Enrile, teaching
professor, and Dr. Holly Priebe Sotelo, associate
teaching professor of practicum education. We
at the School of Social Work are so fortunate
to have this formidable pair of anti -trafficking
warriors educating the next generation of social
work leaders at our school. It's great to have
you both here. Thank you. Thank you for having
us. I like to start these episodes off with a
personal question, which is, how did you get
interested in doing this particular kind of work?
And maybe I'll turn to Annalisa first and then
Holly, but Annalisa, human trafficking, why did
you get involved in this work? So I've actually
been working on human trafficking even before
we were calling a lot of the things that we're
calling trafficking now. trafficking. In 1993
I was an undergraduate student and I was at an
event, a women's conference event, and two of
the speakers were mail order brides in one workshop
and two of the speakers were former garment workers
that had been enslaved in Saipan. And just hearing
their stories and listening to them talk about
their lives as they and they were so when they
started with their traffic were so close in age
to what I was I just thought like this is going
to be what I am committed to forever no matter
you know what happens and it just so happened
you know that I stayed in academia and as a social
worker I think what's really beautiful about
our field is that we can work in so many different
capacities. I always say like the whole continuum
of trafficking, I have experienced, you know,
work in those areas. And it seems so daunting.
It grows bigger and bigger. But that's always
because we are learning more and more about it.
But that's really how I started. Holly, what
about you? How did you get interested in doing
this kind of work? Thank you, Eric. And I just
want to start by saying I'm so honored to be
sharing this podcast with you both. Annalisa
is truly a warrior. I started You know, as a
social worker in 1991, 92 at DCFS LA County,
and similar to what Annalisa said is that we
were doing this work before we knew it was called
CSEC or sex trafficking. We didn't call it that.
This is a fairly new term within the last 25
years. But as a social worker for LA County,
I remember having cases, working with families
who were selling young children to keep their
lights on. to sustain their drug habits, then
fast forward working in the school district at
LA Unified School District for 16 years doing
violence prevention work. crisis response work.
I was approached by our police chief, Chief Zipperman,
I think it was 2014, when he said, you know,
Holly, what are we doing in the schools about
human trafficking? And I paused for a really
long time and I said, I don't understand what
you mean. We don't have human trafficking in
schools. And so very quickly, I was educated
by some real warriors. These are the real people
on the ground, that Michelle Gaimans of the world
and a number of experts that came forward and
educated me on what was happening in our schools
under our noses that young people were being
trafficked out of our schools. And so right away
I put together a task force in the school district
even before there were laws to do that. And from
there, this movement of prevention in schools
has really been my passion, is really making
sure that we educate young people and their parents
about what this is and how to protect kids. So
that's how I, in a very short summary, how I
got involved. But thank you. Amazing, amazing.
I'm struck that both of you said, before we call
it human trafficking, maybe a place for us to
start this conversation is to just say, what
are we talking about when we say human trafficking?
Maybe, Annalisa, you can start off with kind
of how you conceptualize it, and then, you know,
Holly, you could maybe add to it if there's more,
because I'm sure there will be. So, Annalisa?
I think that the definition of human trafficking,
like I said earlier, is one of the things that
we're getting better and better at understanding
the nuances. So, you know, 20 years ago, it was
we talked about, you know, issues of coercion
and didn't include things like poverty, which,
you know, Holly was alluding to. And now we recognize
that people who are living in extreme poverty
have very limited choices. So this could be considered
a form of coercion. I think like the official
definition is something around recruitment, transport,
harboring, you know, of persons and exploitation
for, you know, where fraud, coercion, force.
has occurred, and usually for the purposes of
commercial sexual exploitation or labor. But
we also see in many countries, especially underdeveloped
countries, the trafficking of human organs. So
I also see that as part of human trafficking
as well. Wow. Holly, do you want to add to that,
since you were just talking about how much you
want to educate families about these issues?
Yes. Thank you so much. And to add to Annalisa's
comments, We know now that there are special,
there's factors that create more risk, that puts
populations at risk. So again, we used to think
about it as something overseas, but what we know
is that again, poverty is a very common denominator
for many of the families or victims or survivors,
histories of child sexual abuse, a history where
their ACEs obviously are adverse childhood. experiences
put families at a significant risk of being trafficked
because when you're trying to determine, how
do I feed my children? How do I keep my lights
on? How do I pay my rent or my mortgage, et cetera?
These are things where people are in survival
mode and will do almost anything to stay alive.
So we know that there are some common denominators
that we need to help our families to stay out
of being recruited or knowing what it looks like.
There's some other elements and like in schools
where we know where we can help people do simple
things, you know, connecting with young people,
asking what's happened to them, you know, being
more trauma informed about, you know, our work
that. perhaps maybe young people are behaving
in such a way because there's a history, there's
some trauma that needs to be uncovered. substance
abuse and homelessness and so all these things
that are contributing to why people fall into
the trap of human trafficking. Something you
said just like triggered something for me as
well in terms of you know we want to have these
really simple definitions and I think that what
is very difficult especially about sex trafficking
is that there are these shades of gray so in
many countries the United States included we've
you know tried to say oh there's this you know
at 18 18 and below for sure that sex trafficking
and then it becomes a little bit hazy but even
to get you know that classification of trafficking
for children was a very very difficult fight
for the anti -trafficking movement because of
you know this idea that you know sex is something
that it can be transactional and you know and
so it was very difficult convincing people. about
all of the things that Holly has mentioned that
can be considered or should be considered a form
of coercion. I mean, even today, it is a debate
amongst people whether or not trauma really plays
a role in what we think of as true choice. And
so sometimes it's really frustrating coming from
a background of what we know as social workers,
especially around mental health and what trauma
does, because it's, you know, you've got to go
five steps back when you start this education.
And oftentimes, it doesn't fit nicely into a
box. And so that is where I think a lot of the
challenges have been in this space. And you know
what, can we just add something? Sorry. I just
you also triggered something else for me, Annalisa,
where most people who are involved or most victims
don't see themselves as victims. They go through
this life span of thinking that they have somehow
consented or maybe it was their fault. And so
there's so much shame associated, the stigma
associated with it, that they defend themselves
sometimes to say, no, I consented, even though
we know in California, minors are not able to
consent until they're 18 years old. But so there's
this debate about people are out there on the
on the track or they're participating. This is
their livelihood and leave them alone. They're
making a living. And so there's that debate as
to whether or not is this a crime? Are they consenting?
And so that's half of the battle when you talk
to people that are not in our field of social
work is that they they just can't get their heads
around. It's like, wait, if they're on this or
if they're doing this, can't they just leave?
Why don't they go? Why, right? The big debate
is they don't, a lot of times they don't see
themselves as victims. So this vicious cycle
continues. So that's part of the problem too.
Absolutely. I mean, I know. Probably both of
you know that I do a lot of work with young adults
and teenagers who are experiencing homelessness.
And I certainly am not an expert in the field
of trafficking, but I know that this bleeds into
the space that I study. And I certainly have
seen what you're talking about, which is young
people that are engaged in commercial sex work
or transaction sex. And they wouldn't define
themselves necessarily as trafficking victims,
but their freedom of choice is not something
that I would necessarily say is very strong.
But you also don't want to necessarily tell people
that they don't have freedom of choice. I think
it's a very fine line about supporting folks
as well. And I think one of the things that I
was really interested in as a follow up to this
question really is, you know, Annalisa, you have
said sometimes that there's a normalization of
transactional relationships that you think has
contributed to this problem. Can you maybe speak
to what it is that you mean by this? What is
a transactional relationship and what does it
mean that it's become so normalized in our global
culture? Yeah, thanks. That's such a great question.
I think there's a normalization through social
media, especially on TikTok and also through,
you know, reality. where you get into relationships
and part of the function of an intimate relationship,
a romantic relationship, is this idea of gifts.
experiences, you know, I mean, there's like this
whole viral thing on TikTok about like, he doesn't
really love you if he takes you to Cheesecake
Factory. I mean, I mean, it's like, you know,
ridiculous kinds of things like that. And this,
this idea that, okay, it's something that I can
trade my, my time, my sexuality, my sex act,
you know, in order for things. And you know,
what happens then is because it's normalized,
there is that this narrative that I think those
kids who are involved in survival sex, you know,
where they are treating sexual favors for a night
on someone's couch, or if they have been, like
Holly said, trafficked but don't want to admit
that they're trafficked. I mean, I don't think
that it is a coincidence that, especially in
the United States, when we look at girls who
are domestically trafficked, or youth in general
that are domestically trafficked, a more large
majority of them are traffic by Romeo pimps,
what we call Romeo pimps, which is traffickers
who have convinced them that they are in a relationship.
and that they love this person. And the only
reason that they are asking them to engage in
commercial sexual acts is because they need money
to support both of them. It's just temporary.
You're my favorite. They can have multiples and
still find a way to rationalize that. And I think
that that is very much mirrored in a lot of mainstream
culture in certain ways. And even if it's not
these kinds of viral trends, if you go like to
any high school, and many high schools are actually
making this, you know, are disallowing this,
like dance proposals, promposals, where these
very elaborate kind of proposal scenarios occur.
Torrance High School is a good example. This
was a couple of years ago. They've outlawed these
promposals because a couple of years ago, there
was a promposal that was done on social media.
They streamed it live where the boy gave the
promposal along with $900 in cash on this sign
board. And the girl said yes. And then there
was this debate in the comments, like, oh, I
guess you can buy a prom date now. And all these
kids were like, Yeah, yes. You know, yes. Like,
hands up. I'm not gonna be sold for less than
a thousand. And that was the language that they
were using. And as youth get older, I have heard
of sororities in college using sugar -babying
sites as ways to raise money for their sorority.
So this idea that sex work is a plausible form
of and not exploitation, I think is very much
popularized. It is one of the big debates that
Holly has mentioned. And what it does is it really
kind of muddies this question around human trafficking
and sex trafficking. And if you look at who is
really fueling a lot of that debate and discussion
on sex work, there's a lot of other interests
and other beneficiaries, namely the porn industry,
that is benefiting. from this type of, well,
some of it should be legal. Sure. Yeah. And Holly,
these comments that Annalisa made about kids
in high schools really brings me back to some
of the work that you've done and alluded to.
And I know you've said that oftentimes people
that are being human trafficked are hidden in
plain sight and that you want people to be aware
of how to even understand or identify a potential
human trafficking situation. Can you maybe give
our listeners a little bit of an understanding
so that we can be a bit more proactive about
this situation that Annalise has been talking
to us about. Yeah, a few points. So hidden in
plain sight, it really helps to open our eyes
that the person right next door to us perhaps
is being engaged or is being trafficked. And
I'll give an example. There's a video that I
use about a young lady who was being trafficked.
She was 15 years old when she met her trafficker
on Instagram. because they liked each other's
tattoos. So I showed this video for the purpose
of demonstrating how recruitment, how easy it
happens, how quickly it can grow. So this video
that I showed in class when I was doing a workshop
or training, and lo and behold, at the end of
the training, Two of the participants in my class
said, Holly, we know that person. She was our
next -door neighbor. And we never knew that she
was being trafficked. We always just said in
the community, she's a slut. She was loose. She
had many boyfriends. We just all judged her.
That's an example of the fact that right next
door to them, and they were social work students
who said this, they didn't know, but the community
had ostracized her. So I say this because...
Oftentimes, people who are actively being trafficked
are attending our schools. They're in our supermarkets.
They're in our hospitals. We know about like
85 % of people who are being trafficked visit
emergency rooms, and usually their pimp is right
with them. Pimp, meaning their trafficker, is
standing right with them, oftentimes not allowing
their girl or whoever not to speak. So there's
a number of trainings of ways that we can make
people that are working in what we would consider,
you know, just public facing types of jobs, whether
you're delivering mail, whether you're bagging
groceries at a tattoo parlor, wherever you are,
you might be encountering a victim of human trafficking
right under your nose. And so if we could just
help people recognize what are some of the red
flags, what are some of the questions that you
might be able to ask. I did a training not too
long ago in New Mexico last month where we were
training 47 hospitals, their administrators and
ER workers about what does it look like when
a trafficker brings in someone and then what
questions might you be able to ask. Again, to
answer your question about hidden in plain sight,
they're everywhere. They're not just like what
the movies might think that they're hidden in
a basement. They're not hidden always in a basement
they are out in plain sight and we need to be
able to recognize that. And I think one of the
things that's great, you know, as Holly's mentioned,
is the kind of front line against trafficking
are all these people that are like the first
point of contact, you know, the people that are
working in stores and people that are nail technicians,
people that are hairdressers, people that are,
you know, emergency room nurses, hotel workers,
you know, like, so trainings, for example, for
hotel workers, if you are like at the front desk
hotel and you're checking someone in who is you
know wearing like some booty shorts and a sports
bra and it's raining and freezing outside that's
a red flag. If there's no luggage, if the person
that's checking them in is extremely older than
them, and especially if you see one or both of
them leave without the other, all of these are
very easy tells. And I think that there's just
brave frontliners out there. But if we could
give them that information that Holly is describing,
it arms them with the ability to call the authorities.
and say, I think this is happening because of
these types of red flags. I think some other
red flags could be, you see an uptick in trafficking
whenever there's events. We always talk about
major athletic events, but any events. For example,
one of the big tracks, which is where we see
a lot of what we call areas, where we see a lot
of sex trafficking activity happening is on Figueroa,
right down the street from USC. And during graduation
week, during the month of May, it is so busy
and congested in that. area, anyone driving down
there can see that those tracks are full. And
it doesn't take a huge red flag to notice that
some of the folks on the street are very, very
young, could not possibly be 18. And so I think
there's a lot of flags that are out there that
we have to be trained to see. And I think there's
also a lot of things that we don't want to see.
Your story that you shared, Holly, is so touching
because because it's a lot easier to malign than
it is to say, I wonder what's going on there.
Why is that a different person every time I see
them? Why are we talking about this person in
this way? as opposed to just us making assumptions.
It would be remiss if we didn't mention the New
York Times article that was just published October
26th that talked about young girls being trafficked
on Figueroa Street. And there's a sentence here
that says, the blade, which is what they call
it, or the kitty troll, the blade was an eight
minute drive from the University of Southern
California and yet another universe. So right
down the street, From our own university, we
have human trafficking happening in broad daylight.
It is not unusual to drive down the street to
see young girls on the street in just very, like
you mentioned, it could be so cold outside, raining,
and they're almost half naked. it feels like
the whole community has turned a blind eye, which
is a whole other topic in and of itself when
we talk about the laws that have recently changed
that have made it really, really difficult for
law enforcement to do their job. And so that
has also really debilitated us as a society to
properly provide resources to get young people
off the streets to get them their resources.
So that's a whole nother debate as well that
needs to be addressed at some point. Just kind
of listening to us, I always think about like,
God, this is a black hole. How are we going to
ever find ourselves out of it? How can we stay
even a step ahead? You know, one of the ways
that I've been able to keep working on this issue
is to also focus on like the amazing work that
people are doing and really the innovation that
is happening to to fight, you know, not just
sex trafficking, but also, you know, labor exploitation
and trafficking, especially in these times. Try
to do something that will make an impact. Well,
this is this is. actually exactly what I wanted
to ask as a follow -up and I would love to ask
this of both of you which is it is such a huge
problem. Holly's just alluded to the fact that
there are some legal changes that have made it
even more difficult. What is it that you as social
work educators and social workers are encouraging
people to do and how is it that social work is
entering the fray? I mean I'm sure there's a...
a thousand different things, but maybe you can
talk about a couple of things that you think
are the most important that folks are engaging
in. I think for starters, I think people need
to be educated voters period. They need to understand
what's on the ballot and really do their homework
about the unintended consequences. Sometimes
that happens. And oftentimes I think our society
right now, as you know, you can tell what what's
been happening over the last few years that we,
I think we have a society that's asleep at the
wheel a little bit and that are afraid to, maybe
a little apathetic feeling that, well, I'm not
a social worker. I'm not a police officer. How
am I supposed to stop human trafficking? Hasn't
this been happening for centuries? Well, yes,
it's been happening for centuries, but we must
be... active consumers, we must be active voters,
we must educate ourselves about what's happening
in our society and what that might look like.
I'm kind of appalled when I talk to maybe other
professionals, even our students who say they
don't vote because they don't feel empowered,
they don't feel like their vote matters. And
so I think people need to be involved, be aware
what's happening. What's on the ballot? What
does that really mean? We can't arrest our way
out of this problem by no means, but we can become
educated and put money into prevention programs
where we are educating families. Because I think
through education, that's the only way out of
this is that we need a society that's more educated.
Annalisa? I agree. And I also think that we have
to look at this in context. So when you are raising
children that think that it is OK to buy and
sell bodies, right, that this is the whole transactional
piece. And this includes the demand side, right?
This includes the buyers. You know, we've seen
like a huge change shift in demand where buyers
are younger, where buyers say things, you know,
in the kind of their exit and fuse when they
are caught, where they say things like, yeah,
I don't want to deal with the relationships.
I'd rather just pay for it and then be done.
If we don't understand kind of both sides and
keep saying, how do we work with these victims
of trafficking, but never talk about perpetrators,
we're not going to make a dent in what is happening.
I think that We also have to support those people
that are creating innovations that have the potential
to make great change. We have an alumnus from
our program who created, so simple, just by talking
to survivors and victims, she found out the one
thing that they had in common was that their
trafficker would leave them alone. at least an
hour a week to go get their nails done, because
they still had to have this kind of aesthetic
look. And during that hour of freedom, because
they're getting sent there alone, is an opportunity
for intervention. And one of our students, they
created this little sticker for their nails that's
a QR code in this tiny sticker. So we know, as
Holly alluded to, it's not easy to leave. It's
something like seven or eight times. to get someone
out of that sex trafficking loop. But when they
are ready, they can scan that finger and that
QR code, if they don't trust authorities, can
be registered to contact a loved one or someone
that they trust to come get them because those
QR codes also have like a geo tag in them. And
it's, you know, yeah. Holly, I know, speaking
of interventions, that you are one of the members
of the L .A. Regional Human Trafficking Task
Force. So I assume that this has a force for
intervention. I mean, can you tell us a little
bit about that experience and how that plays
into these sorts of interventions that Annalisa
was just telling us about? When L .A. County
Board of Supervisors started the first responder
protocol, I attended. Many of their meetings
as the prevention side and I was the only school
district representative for the whole state of
California for the whole LA County that was at
the table to talk about prevention and that how
we were incorporating it. Because when when sitting
around the table back in 2014, obviously it was
very heavily. law enforcement. Sheriff Jim McDonald
at the time, he was at the forefront of him and
all the board of supervisors at the time. And
slowly the Department of Children and Family
Services became. the number one priority for
children who are being identified who are being
trafficked as the primary lead. So there there's
a first responder protocol right now that has
been in effect since about 2014, where it there
and there's reports that you can pull it up on
the internet as well. But there's a protocol
on how when a person has been identified in this
and what we're speaking about is the sex trafficking,
not technically the labor trafficking. trafficking
part of it. But when a victim has been identified,
there's a protocol that within 72 hours, you
know, the person has a medical exam, they have,
they go through a variety of screenings and interviews,
and then they, a team approach where they are
determining where, what's the safety protocols
for this person. So it's been, you know, I'm
really proud to have been a part of that conversation.
When I left LA Unified School District in 2016
to join USC, My shift kind of changed a little
bit because I was no longer in the school district,
but now my shift is really. a little broader
in that I'm able to support school districts
in the nation around what can we do in the school
system to have early identification, early prevention
and intervention protocols. So that's kind of
my work right now is really kind of honing in
on schools because that is kind of the epicenter
of where educational movements can happen is
in the schools, which we. obviously has had its
share of problems in the last couple of years.
So hopefully that helps to answer a little bit
of that. Oh, absolutely. Go ahead, Annalisa,
go ahead. I think that we have to be able to
look at this from all of these multiple fronts.
And when Holly said, you know, looking at through
this lens of like, what can we do like within
large school organizations, districts and bigger
is also like what whole industries have done,
right? So what the hoteling industry is doing
all the way from creating like everybody wants
to take a selfie in their hotel room. And so
we have some like great tech people that. created
this database so that when a kid goes missing,
they can match that picture up to all these different
selfies that are being taken if they're registered
in this database to say, oh, it's pretty likely
they're on that hotel on Figueroa, blah, blah,
blah. And the airline industries, now you go
into the airports and in bathroom stalls, there's
definitions of what human trafficking is for
labor and for sex. And I think so at these big
macro level. Right. Holly's talked very much
about policy, but also looking at like, how do
we get our systems engaged? And then I also think
about it like in on these like micro levels,
looking at some of the coolest things that I've
ever heard in terms of combating traffic have
been because Again, people feel empowered by
being educated on what this is and on being able
to see the signs and on listening to each other
and kind of going with your gut, like being brave.
You know, I know that sounds so cliche. Being
brave is so important. I mean, this topic is
so vast. I feel bad that we only have about a
half an hour to talk because I feel like we have
hardly gotten started and the time has run away.
I think clearly there's a need for us to come
and talk more about this because I think there's
so many more nuanced pieces of this and the interventions
are so challenging, but also the need for innovation
is so great. I want to make sure that before
we wrap up, give you each a moment for a minute
or so if there's something else that you really
feel like for our listeners that are maybe hearing
about this topic from a social work angle for
the first time, something that you want to share
with them. Maybe I will turn first to Annalisa
and then I'll turn to Holly. Annalisa, what would
you like to leave our listeners thinking about?
I think we're living in times of great fear and
it's caused a lot of immobility like people not
knowing what to do or if what they do matters.
Having worked so closely with trafficking survivors
and victims. I want to say that any little thing
we do matters. And because you've given me permission,
Eric, to say be brave, that it is not a cliche,
I think, in this sense. I've seen five -year
-old girls be able to identify labor trafficking
in their neighborhoods and successfully help
stop it. And I've seen fathers at slumber parties
who are brave enough to say, why does your phone
keep dinging? who is messaging you and then have
been able to identify this is someone who is
grooming these little girls. We have to be willing
to be there for each other. and to speak up when
we see something that we know in our gut is wrong.
And I would rather be wrong about it than be
right about it and not say anything. And so I
think that hidden in plain sight that Holly has
mentioned, that it is happening all around us,
and to really challenge things that have been
normalized that should not have been, are things
that we have to do if we want to make a dent
in these trafficking. that you started with.
Beautiful. Thank you, Alisa. Holly? Yeah, thank
you. Great question. And I think my first appeal
is what I want is if someone is listening right
now, who may be in the life right now, who is
being trafficked, but may not have seen themselves
or called themselves a victim, if you're listening
right now, I want you to know that there's help,
that this is not okay. There's people that care
about you and that... there are resources. And
so I just want also families to talk to your
young children, talk to them, help them understand,
communicate with them. Don't fear the internet.
Don't fear schools and partnering with public
schools. I think public schools are great. resource
for families. As much as you feel like, oh, my
voice doesn't matter, your voice matters. It
matters when you look the other way. If you're
on a train or a plane or wherever you are and
you see something that feels a little weird to
you that makes the hair on the back of your neck
stand up, that's something that's telling you
to pay attention. So even as simple as just speaking
up and giving eye contact and kind of disrupting
something that may be happening, who knows? And
oftentimes these victims are uncovered or the
victimization is uncovered because the simple
act of an ordinary human being who came into
contact to say, hello, are you OK? Is there somebody
I can call for you? So thank you, Eric. Thank
you, Annalisa, for your time. And thank you,
Holly. That was amazing. I feel embarrassed to
try to even follow that up. But I will say it
has been amazing to have the two of you here.
speaking with so much passion and so much dedication.
This is something that needs to be addressed
and it needs to be addressed with bravery, as
you say, Annalisa. And thank you for the, a little
bit of a playbook for that bravery, Holly, there
at the end. I want to thank you both so much
for joining me today. And I will say to our listeners,
if you want to learn more about our work around
human trafficking, you can visit our school's
website, dworakpeck.usc.edu. If you have questions
for the guests or our show, or you want to support
our transform - research and education programs,
please email us at listenuppeople@usc.edu.
And one more time, Holly, Annalisa, amazing to
have you both here and thank you so much. Thank
you.