Hello and welcome to Listen Up People, a podcast
of the USC Suzanne Dworak-Peck School of Social
Work. I'm Dr. Eric Rice, professor and associate
dean for research. Today, we're going to be talking
about sustainability and the impact of the environment
on health and mental health. When many of us
think about sustainability and environmental
issues, our thoughts often go to green energy,
deforestation, carbon emissions, or global climate
change. But at the heart of social work is the
study of the person and environment. how people's
interactions with their social, cultural, and
physical surrounding impact who they are and
their health and well -being. Today, more than
ever, that includes the disproportionate impact
of climate -related disasters on pollution and
the health and well -being of marginalized communities.
My guests today are part of a faculty working
group here at the USC Suzanne Dworak-Peck School
of Social Work that aims to elevate education
about environmental justice and its impact on
social determinants of health. I'd like to welcome
my colleagues, Dr. Shelly Zappas, who is associate
teaching professor and director of the Masters
of Science in Nursing program. And she's joined
by my fellow colleague and member of the sustainability
faculty group, senior lecturer Rick Newmyer,
who is co -developing curriculum around social
determinants of health for the new Bachelor of
Social Work program launching in 2026. It's great
to have you both here today. And I guess I want
to start off by asking you both a question that
I've been asking my guests at the beginning of
the episodes. How did you get involved in this
particular topic? I mean, we can all as academics
choose to work on almost anything that we want
all the time. And so maybe I'll turn to you first,
Shelly. So how did you get interested in the
environment and its impact on health? I think
that when I first sort of heard about... the
climate change from a health perspective, I was
a little bit confused. I was like, what does
that have to do? But as you mentioned, the environments
that we live in have such an impact on us in
so many ways. When I really decided to sort of
take a deep dive into this topic was actually,
Over the summer, I was traveling with my family,
and we were in the Galapagos Islands in Ecuador
during the time of the earthquake in Russia.
And obviously, that set off a ripple effect of
tsunami warnings in a lot of coastal regions.
And although the proximity between Russia and
Ecuador is quite large. We were on islands that
were somewhat vulnerable. So we ended up getting
evacuated to just higher ground, right? That's
sometimes all you can do. And the way... that
most countries, even including the United States,
evacuate people is through auditory signals,
right? Sirens, even radio, things like that.
And my daughter is deaf. And so they literally
were just driving through the streets. blasting
sirens and, you know, kind of giving those sort
of warnings. And it got me really thinking about
vulnerable populations and how severe weather
events and climate change related environmental
disasters have a disproportionate effect on vulnerable
populations. And yeah, so it took me into a deep
dive of looking particularly at people with disabilities,
but the deaf and hard of hearing and the impact
that climate related weather events have on their
experiences with them, right? In terms of accessibility
to warnings and evacuation practices and all
of that sort of stuff. So it, really, I mean,
it's always been something that I've been interested
in, obviously, is, you know, the environment
and climate change. But that really kind of put
it into more of a personal perspective and is
something that I'm working on right now. Clearly,
deeply personal impact for you in that regard.
Rick, how about you? How did you get interested
in this topic? Most recently, it has been the
Tijuana sewage crisis. So I live in San Diego
County. in the southern part, literally 10 minutes
from the border that we share with Mexico. And
growing up raising four kids here, my kids love
the water and particularly love the beach in
Coronado. And I can't tell you how many times
that we've gone to the beach and there's signs
up all along the sand warning people to stay
out of the water because it's contaminated with
sewage. It's the Tijuana sewage crisis. It's
one of the worst environmental crises in the
history of the U S and it's been happening for
over 90 years. It impacts me because it's, you
know, can't take my kids to the beach, but it
impacts other people who live close to that situation
on both sides of the border, much more profoundly
on a daily basis. And the more you dig into it,
the more concerning it is. It's interesting to
hear that both of you are thinking about this
issue in relationship to your children. And I
think that that's maybe something that I've heard
in other conversations I've had with people recently
around climate change. I was actually having
a conversation about the social impact of climate
change at a dinner two nights ago. And again,
the person I was having dinner with there. was
discussing how really their experience with their
children and not wanting to leave a planet to
their children and eventually hopefully grandchildren
that is that is in such disrepair is I think
something that's really hitting people of our
generation in particular. I mean not to call
you out and how old you all are. But I think
we're all kind of more or less the same middling
ages these days. And some of us are older than
others. But says the man with gray, a lot of
it. But I think that there's really is this interest
and concern about the well -being of people,
but also the way that we're seeing that in our
own personal lives. I think I want to pick up
from that. a little bit, Shelley, you had mentioned
in your comments that you've been interested
in environmental issues for a while, but I also
know that in your role as the chair of the nursing
program that you are really interested in social
determinants of health. And I guess I'm wondering.
you know, how it is that you conceptualize this
environmental climate change as part of that
larger umbrella of social determinants of health.
I mean, we can kind of explain to people what
even is social determinants of health. Some of
our listeners may not be that familiar with the
concept. Social workers have been sort of pioneers
in understanding that the that there are a lot
of social determinants that account for health
and well -being. The statistics are something
like 80 % of our health and well -being impact
outcomes are related to social, not biomedical
determinants, right? where we live, the work
that we have, even our financial situations,
education all have a profound impact on our health
and how we take care of ourselves and the impacts
that present. So I think. In terms of climate
change, I mean, we can look at it from a variety
of perspectives from everything from air pollution,
increasing the risk of asthma and respiratory
illnesses, extreme heat, increasing the risk
of acute kidney disease or acute kidney injury,
I should say, and to wildfires and, you know,
that, again, that impact on respiratory health,
even I found this sort of interesting, even that
there's an increased risk of skin conditions
and skin cancer, right, with our ozone layered
depletion. So there's a lot of, I think, in my
opinion, impacts that are really not sort of
thought about overtly that the environment and
and more so the destruction of the environment
that have had on our, yeah, cancer rates, morbidity,
mortality, personal injury. But from a mental
health perspective, PTSD, mass trauma, depression,
all of that sort of ripple effect to houses,
income, all of that, and then also physical conditions.
broad, it is varied, and it is very real, you
know? Yeah. Yeah. And I think one of the issues
that I think is also really interesting is the
way that that impact is not necessarily evenly
distributed across our society, right? And maybe,
Rick, I mean, you had sort of mentioned this
a little bit when you were talking about the
Coronado, you know, your experience in Coronado
with the Tijuana sewage issues. I mean, these
environmental impacts aren't how should I put
it, evenly distributed across population. So
can you maybe help our listeners understand a
little bit better about what it means to have
this disproportionate impact? These are things
that happen, you know, environmental issues happen
all around the world. And what you often see,
whether it's entire countries or cities or neighborhoods
or communities, is they're often impacting people
who are living in poverty or people who are under
resourced, people who are more affected economically.
And sometimes that's because that's where projects
are built, whether it's factories or sewage treatment
or just different types of things that add to
or deal with these toxins and pollutants and
things like that. They don't tend to go... in
the more well -to -do neighborhoods. They tend
to go into the neighborhoods of people who have
less means and less ability to sort of push back
on getting those things, you know, built in their
communities. And then in terms of just who can
afford to live where, sometimes folks, it's when
you're closer to some of these impacts, it's
cheaper to live. That might just also be where
people's family and history and, you know, extended
families live and their support systems. And
so it's not like they can just get up and move
someplace else to get away from these things.
And so definitely has a disproportionate impact
on people with less money and needs. Yeah. Yeah.
And I think one thing that this conversation
is also making me want to dive into a little
bit more around Shelley that you mentioned is
there are disproportionate impacts that are related
to economic well -being, right? But there's also
disproportionate impacts that are related to
other issues such as you were describing, you
know, your daughter having hearing impairment
issues. And so what else are you thinking about
in your work in terms of these disparities, you
know, aside from the economic disparities that
Rick just mentioned? It's a little hard to separate
sometimes, right? Because I do think that people
with disabilities are oftentimes marginalized
and therefore do receive, you know, less education
and less income and things like that. And that's
actually something that I have also seen reflected
in the literature, even the fact that again,
as I said, a lot of times, emergency alerts and
warnings and things like that are very auditory
for forward. And so therefore are not necessarily
better. They're not very accessible to the entire
population. But one thing that I found is is
sort of interesting, too, is that even people
that are deaf are heterogeneous, right? In that
Some of them don't know how to sign. Some of
them do know how to sign. There's home signs
and things like that. There's actually quite
a few studies that I'm looking at currently out
of Vietnam. And just looking at that, I think
Vietnam is a very vulnerable place in terms of
disasters and climate. So a lot of people from
urban versus rural situations might not have
even the same sort of knowledge of sign language
or literacy levels in terms of that. It's just
this very, very complicated sort of situation
when you look at it because it is hard to extract
vulnerability in sort of this singular way, right?
People are vulnerable in multiple ways and they
all sort of impact one another. But, you know,
from a policy perspective, I think that people
with disabilities are often left out of the governmental
sort of policies and procedures related to disaster
release or emergency preparedness. And I think
that that is also impacting our vulnerable populations,
not just people with disabilities, but obviously
a variety of subsets of the population, right,
are just sort of left off the table and not even
kind of considered. when we're thinking about
climate change or when we're thinking about disaster
relief and just this eco -racism that exists,
there is just this big gap for health. literacy
and economic reasons, et cetera. Yeah. I mean,
it reminds me of a few weeks ago, I was watching
a documentary about the impact of Hurricane Katrina
on New Orleans, right? And there's a stark example
of class and race issues with this proportionate
impact. And it also strikes me that It's not
only that there are these disparities that make
people more vulnerable to the negative impacts,
but our ability to help people through formal
systems cope with the impact of these disasters
also has an ongoing disparities as well, right?
So I think, you know, Rick, I know you're a social
worker by training, right? And so, you know,
there's also a disparity in terms of who has
access to good mental health care. that would
help people to deal with these things afterwards.
And I'm wondering if this is also something that
you've been thinking about in terms of the downstream
interventions that one does to try to help people
deal with these crises. Yeah, access to mental
health care is an interesting thing because as
we look at the health care system in the United
States, It's not just about having access to
doctors and things like that and being able to
afford preventative treatment and treatment for
different conditions that you might have. But
even if you have good health care, it often does
not include very much mental health care. And
so a lot of folks that, you know, they'll go,
they have great insurance, but if they want to
see a mental health provider, they might get
a few visits and then they're looking at out
of pocket or some, you know, serious sliding
scale, you know, something beyond maybe getting
them through a crisis or an event. And sometimes
people have ongoing needs where it's really helpful.
to be able to talk to someone on a regular basis
and not have to wait three months till your next
appointment or worry about how you're gonna be
able to afford treatment. And so that's definitely
a big concern is the mental health aspect of
that. Well, sure, and I would imagine people
who live in these communities that are really
impacted, especially by pollution or regular
occurrences of natural disasters, it's not. like
that's a one -time thing that goes away after
three visits, right? You're going to have to,
you know, these are ongoing stressors in a person's
life. I want to shift our conversation just a
little bit because I know that the two of you
are working on developing some new curriculum
around determinants, social determinants of health
with this environmental justice as a component
of this for the BSW program. So I Wondering,
perhaps, Rick, you want to start us off describing
what is this program that you're working on?
And then maybe, Shelley, you can fill in some
of the gaps, because I'm sure that there's way
more than just a couple of sentences to be said
about developing a brand new program for a brand
new degree. What we're looking at is a course
on social determinants of health, structural
and social determinants of health, and issue
of health equity. in the United States specifically.
Now, certainly it's a global phenomenon, but
it definitely, because of the particulars of
our healthcare system, environment, and history,
there's a lot to focus on just here in the United
States. And one of the things as we've been working
on this and just working in this field over the
years is seeing all the research that indicates
how much social determinants of health, it accounts
for over half of population health outcomes and
is the single greatest contributor to individual
health, even more than genetics and personal
behavior and all of that, which is a really interesting
thing because it's here in the US, it's we're
about we're rugged individualists, pull yourself
up by your bootstraps, personal behavior and
responsibility. All those things are important,
but it really doesn't get to the truth of how
much we're connected to one another. And, you
know, earlier in the conversation talked about,
you know, needing to, you know, what we're leaving
to our children, grandchildren, all of that,
but just also the people who were alive at this
moment with us. And so making sure that people
have access to nutritious foods, physical activity,
clean air and water, safe neighborhoods. All
those kinds of things, it's not just for their
sake, it's for all of our sakes because of the
way that we're all connected. Shelly, how does
the environmental piece of this that we've been
talking about, how does that play into this curriculum
that you're developing? Yeah. So as Rick mentioned,
we're working on a course about social determinants,
health disparities, right? Health disparities
obviously can look at a variety of different
topics, everything from race, gender. disability
status, et cetera, but it also is tightly entwined
with the the climate in which we live in. As
Rick was saying, droughts can impact our food
security or flooding can impact our food security
or environmental disasters can impact the pollution
and the air quality that we live in. But what
I really liked about what Rick said and what
I think has sort of I think been lost at least
in the the US sort of political sort of system
is that we all are so interconnected and how
I. am doing is going to have an impact on how
you are doing, which is going to have an impact
on how somebody else on the other side of the
world is doing. And so I think that it is our
social responsibility to be proper stewards of
the environment. but also be good and kind to
one another and care about all of our health
and wellbeing, right? And so I think that that
is, our course isn't just about all of the problems,
right? It's not just about. oh, health disparities,
you know, social determinants of health, they're
impacting us with X, Y, and Z, but it's also
looking at it from sort of a solution -driven
perspective, which again, I think that social
works do very well. And the Suzanne Dvorak Peck
School of Social Work is really all about is
how, then what are we gonna do about it? And
how can we boost ourselves and one another and
really have a better impact on us. from a micro,
macro, and meso perspective. I can't help but
make a quick little comment, which is I'm a guy
who's been studying a lot about social networks
and social network theory. And I do social network
analysis. And I do these studies, especially
with youth experiencing homelessness around social
networks. And one of my favorite books is a book
called Connected by Chris Stakis and Fowler.
And it's a book written by academics, but for
a popular press. And one of the things they talk
about is that Our happiness and well -being is
not just a function of our own personal happiness
and well -being, but our friends impact us, but
our friends' friends' happiness impacts us, and
our friends' friends' friends' happiness impacts
us. And not only that, our friends' friends'
friends' friends' happiness impacts us. So it's
not just the people that we don't know, but the
people that our friends don't know impacts us.
And so we are part of this interconnected web
that... we, whether we want to, as rugged individuals
in America acknowledge it or not, the science
is very clear that we impact one another profoundly.
And I love that you are taking in that notion
of the interconnected communities in which we
live and how those are a big part of the well
-being and health that we experience in our personal
lives, which I think is something that people
don't... often think about, although it's a profound
part of our experience. I think that we think
a lot about our friends and family and how important
they are to us. But I don't know that we always
think about how deeply enmeshed in a web of humanity
and the well -being of those others around us.
So it's great to hear you're doing that. And
I also love, and I would love to hear, Rick,
your thoughts on this as well, too, something
that you said at the very end there, Shelly,
which was that in social work and nursing as
well, too, and certainly in our school, a focus
on solution, not just identifying problems, but
then what do we do about this? And so I'm curious
to know, are there particular perspectives or
interventions or thoughts that you all are thinking
about infusing into this curriculum that are
about those solutions? Yeah, I mean, one of the
things. to do is to look at cases where people
have been successful in taking action and that
can be throughout our history in the U .S. going
back to Jane Addams and organizing in Chicago
around the trash and trash pickup and all of
that. It's like social work is so glamorous.
To more recent examples of that, and then also
around the world. We haven't cornered the market
on good ideas in the US alone. There's things
that happen around the world. And so looking
at what governments have done around the world
to take care of people, communities, organizations
coming together. So helping students to learn
some of these different cases and pull the learnings
and see how they can apply those in small and
large ways. And that's the thing with this is
that not everything we do is going to, there's
no silver bullet that's going to solve this problem,
but we can hopefully chip away at it. We'll have
small victories, hopefully some large victories
at different points. But just the act of taking
action is good for us, is good for our mental
health. The fact that we're doing something and
not just sort of doom scrolling and seeing all
the impacts and things, but getting out and doing
something, joining with other people who care
about the same things. is immensely good for
our mental health and keeps us going, keeps you
going to do, you know, keep doing this work.
That's great. That's great. Before we go, I wanted
to give you each an opportunity to have some
closing thoughts and maybe if you have something
that you think you'd like to share about. what
you maybe wish that people better understood
about this problem, or if you have something
else that you think is a thought that you haven't
had an opportunity to share with our listeners
yet, I'd love to give you an opportunity. And
maybe Shelley, I'll turn to you first and then
turn things back to Rick. But is there anything
that you want to leave our listeners with as
we are closing out for the day? This is a little
bit trite, but I think as we're talking about
connectedness and the impact that we can have
on each other and the environment is. yeah, let's
just be kinder to one another, to ourselves,
to the environment and, and just be conscious
of that because it can have a very profound impact
if you kind of look at it from a broader level,
something that we consider just maybe a little
bit simple. It might not necessarily have a simple
impact, right? It can definitely have a very
profound impact. And I do think that humanity,
has been a little bit lost. And one thing that
is quite easy for us to do is just be a little
bit softer and kinder to ourselves, each other
and the environment. I love that. I love that.
Rick? Yeah, I think along those lines, there's
this phrase that pops up in memes and things,
which is like, I don't know how to explain to
you that you should care about other people.
And sometimes it's people very kind of cavalierly
like they enjoy or they make fun of people who
do care about other people. And that it's some
type of a weakness or a deficit or something.
And that's just so bananas to me. And, you know,
and again, it doesn't matter. You don't have
to be a parent. You don't have to have children,
grandchildren, you know, whatever it is. But
just as a human being, having some empathy and
some care and thinking about how much you're
using of resources and what's being available
for people and just how you're, if you're leaving
things better, all that kind of stuff, it just
makes sense. And it's just, I can't understand
kind of going the other direction. You don't
have to be a social worker. to care about other
people and to live in a way in which you leave
things a little bit better. Just little bits
of kindness. Doesn't matter what your job is.
You will do a better job if you care about other
people. You will make your workplace a better
place, your home a better place, your community
a better place. Almost no better way to demonstrate
that than the things that we do around the environment.
What a positive end note in our current climate
of climate change and, and political climate
and et cetera. You know, I think having some,
some optimism about our ability to enact some
positive change in our local spaces and the impact
that that has is it ripples out. that it can
be profound is a really great place to leave
our audience when they're thinking about issues
that can sometimes feel so large and so almost
impossibly large at the level of the planet,
you know, and to remind folks that, yeah, you
can make a difference in your own life and the
lives of the people around you and what an important
part that has to do with other people on the
planet. And so thank you, Shelley. Thank you,
Rick. What a great conversation. I will say to
our listeners that if you want to learn more
about the environmental impact on health and
the new BSW program that includes social determinants
of health, as well as the research going on here
at the USC Suzanne Dworak -Peck School of Social
Work, you can visit our school's website at
dworakpeck.usc.edu. And if you have questions for our
guests on the show, or you want to support the
transformative educational programs and research
that happens here at our school, you can email
us at listenuppeople@usc.edu. And let me
just say one more time to both of you. Thank
you so much for such an enlightening and inspiring
conversation today. Thank you, Eric. This is
great. Thanks for having us.