WEBVTT 00:00:13.740 --> 00:00:16.620 Hello and welcome to Listen Up People, a podcast 00:00:16.620 --> 00:00:19.399 of the USC Suzanne Dworak -Peck School of Social 00:00:19.399 --> 00:00:22.059 Work. I'm Dr. Eric Rice, professor and associate 00:00:22.059 --> 00:00:25.300 dean for research. This episode, we are focusing 00:00:25.300 --> 00:00:30.420 on advancing addiction science. In 2024, 48 .4 00:00:30.420 --> 00:00:33.259 million people aged 12 or older had a substance 00:00:33.259 --> 00:00:36.060 use disorder in the past year, yet only one in 00:00:36.060 --> 00:00:38.719 five people received treatment. My guests today 00:00:38.719 --> 00:00:41.799 are part of the USC Institute for Addiction Science, 00:00:42.200 --> 00:00:44.460 which aims to revolutionize the way substance 00:00:44.460 --> 00:00:47.079 use is discussed and treated and prevented. I'd 00:00:47.079 --> 00:00:49.200 like to welcome Dr. Jennifer Lewis, teaching 00:00:49.200 --> 00:00:51.820 professor and director of the Master of Social 00:00:51.820 --> 00:00:55.460 Work program, and Dr. Olivia Lee, associate professor 00:00:55.460 --> 00:00:58.369 and director of the PhD. It's great to have you 00:00:58.369 --> 00:01:00.549 both here with us. Hi, thank you for having us. 00:01:00.750 --> 00:01:03.850 So I want to start off with something that I've 00:01:03.850 --> 00:01:05.750 been enjoying doing for the past few episodes, 00:01:05.829 --> 00:01:08.090 which is to ask people a personal question as 00:01:08.090 --> 00:01:10.209 we get this started, which is why did you get 00:01:10.209 --> 00:01:12.829 involved in this kind of work? So maybe I'll 00:01:12.829 --> 00:01:16.150 turn to Jen, you first, but what got you interested 00:01:16.150 --> 00:01:19.329 in addiction? Thank you again for having me. 00:01:19.329 --> 00:01:21.810 And I'm happy to share a little bit about this 00:01:21.810 --> 00:01:25.890 really exciting initiative with USC. You know, 00:01:25.890 --> 00:01:28.870 as a clinician in practice, I think so many of 00:01:28.870 --> 00:01:32.150 us worked with individuals who had co -occurring 00:01:32.150 --> 00:01:35.450 disorders. And back in the day, not to show my 00:01:35.450 --> 00:01:39.430 age, but anybody we were assessing, we were determining 00:01:39.430 --> 00:01:43.170 whether or not they had addiction that preceded 00:01:43.170 --> 00:01:46.010 their mental health issues or were a consequence 00:01:46.010 --> 00:01:49.670 of potentially. And depending on what we found, 00:01:49.750 --> 00:01:53.829 we would refer them to services either for addiction 00:01:53.829 --> 00:01:56.140 or for mental health. health. And even at the 00:01:56.140 --> 00:01:58.140 time, I just thought that this does not make 00:01:58.140 --> 00:02:00.480 sense. This really, you know, so many of these 00:02:00.480 --> 00:02:04.719 issues are intertwined. And so separating into 00:02:04.719 --> 00:02:08.139 those, those different areas just didn't make 00:02:08.139 --> 00:02:12.280 sense to me. And in during that time, the treatment 00:02:12.280 --> 00:02:15.099 that we had available was really focused on, 00:02:15.159 --> 00:02:18.879 you know, like peer led addiction treatment and 00:02:18.879 --> 00:02:21.659 versus the mental health side, which had more 00:02:21.659 --> 00:02:23.979 evidence based interventions and professional 00:02:23.849 --> 00:02:27.490 care. And so it just, it seemed at the time that, 00:02:27.490 --> 00:02:30.530 you know, they weren't great options and maybe 00:02:30.530 --> 00:02:33.770 not the best for the, the clients that we were 00:02:33.770 --> 00:02:35.870 working with. Yeah. Yeah. Olivia, how about you? 00:02:35.969 --> 00:02:38.389 How did you get involved in addiction work? Uh, 00:02:38.990 --> 00:02:42.889 so let me think. So like, so kind of similar 00:02:42.889 --> 00:02:47.319 to what Janice is saying. So before me joining 00:02:47.319 --> 00:02:50.259 in a PhD program and a whole kind of thing, I 00:02:50.259 --> 00:02:52.659 was a practitioner. I was a social worker in 00:02:52.659 --> 00:02:55.240 the field. And before that one, there's a practicum 00:02:55.240 --> 00:02:58.560 and all of those. And you saw the intersection 00:02:58.560 --> 00:03:03.340 between the poverty and then substance use a 00:03:03.340 --> 00:03:06.479 lot. But back then, before me joining the PhD 00:03:06.479 --> 00:03:10.050 program, My obsession was a poverty, so I did 00:03:10.050 --> 00:03:12.430 not really see the substance use of science that 00:03:12.430 --> 00:03:14.770 much, even if I was working with them and a whole 00:03:14.770 --> 00:03:18.370 kind of thing. But my interest in the substance 00:03:18.370 --> 00:03:21.409 use is really picked up and I clearly see the 00:03:21.409 --> 00:03:25.129 intersection from the PhD program. I was a part 00:03:25.129 --> 00:03:29.680 of. this research group and I was on the grant 00:03:29.680 --> 00:03:32.419 and study, so really study about the kind of 00:03:32.419 --> 00:03:35.680 social determinant of substance use and whole 00:03:35.680 --> 00:03:38.740 kind of thing. So that was how my trajectory, 00:03:38.939 --> 00:03:41.840 but like a beginning was like Jen was in the 00:03:41.840 --> 00:03:44.819 field by working with people, see them one, it 00:03:44.819 --> 00:03:49.180 was in me and then it blossomed in the PhD program. 00:03:49.419 --> 00:03:51.020 Yeah, that's so interesting to hear both of you 00:03:51.020 --> 00:03:53.240 talk about your experiences as practitioners 00:03:53.240 --> 00:03:56.060 informing this. I think From my perspective, 00:03:56.099 --> 00:03:58.340 at least, I don't know that a lot of people think 00:03:58.340 --> 00:04:01.599 about social work and social workers as having 00:04:01.599 --> 00:04:05.439 a lot to do with addiction. And yet for the two 00:04:05.439 --> 00:04:08.539 of you, I know we have both a strong commitment 00:04:08.539 --> 00:04:11.280 to both educational programs and research programs 00:04:11.280 --> 00:04:13.580 driven by your social work and your passion. 00:04:13.620 --> 00:04:16.180 So it's really great to see. I guess I want to 00:04:16.180 --> 00:04:18.810 turn to talking about each of those. Things right 00:04:18.810 --> 00:04:21.209 the educational programs as well as the research 00:04:21.209 --> 00:04:23.410 programs and maybe we'll start a little bit with 00:04:23.410 --> 00:04:26.529 the education part of things. Jen, I know you've 00:04:26.529 --> 00:04:30.360 been. deeply involved with creating new programs 00:04:30.360 --> 00:04:33.300 around addiction here at USC. Can you talk about 00:04:33.300 --> 00:04:35.980 those programs? Yeah, you know, interestingly, 00:04:36.620 --> 00:04:39.420 when we look at social work programs around the 00:04:39.420 --> 00:04:41.939 country, we all have accreditation standards. 00:04:41.980 --> 00:04:44.779 And so there's some uniformity with all of us. 00:04:45.040 --> 00:04:47.560 We oftentimes differ in terms of our specializations, 00:04:47.740 --> 00:04:49.639 but at least at the foundation level, it's all 00:04:49.639 --> 00:04:51.639 sort of the same. And we have a lot of competencies 00:04:51.639 --> 00:04:55.680 to cover. And addiction is not one of them. Interestingly, 00:04:55.680 --> 00:04:59.399 so if we as programs in this country are going 00:04:59.399 --> 00:05:02.720 to insert addiction knowledge, you know, we do 00:05:02.720 --> 00:05:05.819 so in the form of electives or maybe a specialization, 00:05:05.819 --> 00:05:09.019 but it really isn't uniform. And so in our program 00:05:09.019 --> 00:05:11.839 specifically, we just didn't have a lot. And 00:05:11.839 --> 00:05:14.600 while CSWE had provided some guidance around 00:05:14.600 --> 00:05:17.759 addiction education, we had we had pieces of 00:05:17.759 --> 00:05:19.939 it, but we weren't doing it comprehensively. 00:05:20.100 --> 00:05:24.560 And so I became really interested in the Institute 00:05:24.560 --> 00:05:27.480 for Addiction Science, which was an institute 00:05:27.480 --> 00:05:31.000 where education was part of their mission across 00:05:31.000 --> 00:05:34.160 transdisciplinary across the university. And 00:05:34.160 --> 00:05:36.720 they were starting a master's in addiction science 00:05:36.720 --> 00:05:41.920 as a transdisciplinary degree so that it was 00:05:41.920 --> 00:05:46.180 bringing social work, public health, pharmacy 00:05:46.180 --> 00:05:49.959 and medicine to the table to develop curriculum, 00:05:50.079 --> 00:05:52.540 literally to sit down with each other, build 00:05:52.540 --> 00:05:55.079 relationships and develop curriculum that would 00:05:55.079 --> 00:05:57.920 serve all of our professions with the intent 00:05:57.920 --> 00:06:01.100 that our students would not only receive the 00:06:01.100 --> 00:06:04.500 education, but would learn at the same time in 00:06:04.500 --> 00:06:07.459 classrooms with other professionals and so not 00:06:07.459 --> 00:06:10.199 just learning with their own profession and then 00:06:10.199 --> 00:06:12.379 going into the field and working with different 00:06:12.379 --> 00:06:14.540 professions, but actually learning with different 00:06:14.540 --> 00:06:16.889 professions. So I was not only interested in 00:06:16.889 --> 00:06:20.089 increasing or enhancing the social work knowledge 00:06:20.089 --> 00:06:24.610 within addiction, but really the idea of interprofessional 00:06:24.610 --> 00:06:28.129 education or transdisciplinary education where 00:06:28.129 --> 00:06:30.569 people were learning together at the same time. 00:06:30.629 --> 00:06:35.310 Are you developing any social work specific programs 00:06:35.310 --> 00:06:38.790 or is it mostly a collaboration with the Institute? 00:06:38.970 --> 00:06:42.339 Well, we did something really Well, I think there 00:06:42.339 --> 00:06:45.180 was an opportunity for us. There was some funding 00:06:45.180 --> 00:06:48.259 from the state of California to do workforce 00:06:48.259 --> 00:06:51.240 development, because really, unfortunately, most 00:06:51.240 --> 00:06:54.860 of the certification and addiction is tailored 00:06:54.860 --> 00:06:58.519 towards laypeople, a lot of community colleges, 00:06:58.879 --> 00:07:00.980 or for people to get a certification in addiction. 00:07:00.980 --> 00:07:04.560 And it takes a long time in those settings. And 00:07:04.560 --> 00:07:07.120 so the state of California was interested in 00:07:07.120 --> 00:07:09.540 enhancing the workforce, making sure that we 00:07:09.540 --> 00:07:12.199 could create more knowledgeable addiction people. 00:07:12.560 --> 00:07:15.800 And so we actually were able to integrate our 00:07:15.800 --> 00:07:19.399 certification for addiction into our social work 00:07:19.399 --> 00:07:22.480 program. So individuals through the support, 00:07:22.540 --> 00:07:24.579 with the support of the state of California and 00:07:24.579 --> 00:07:28.040 funds that supplement their tuition, were able 00:07:28.040 --> 00:07:32.819 to receive a certification in addiction at the 00:07:32.819 --> 00:07:35.120 same time that they were receiving their masters 00:07:35.120 --> 00:07:38.079 of social work. So that was a way of sort of 00:07:38.079 --> 00:07:42.480 layering our masters in social work with additional 00:07:42.480 --> 00:07:45.779 addiction training without diminishing their 00:07:45.779 --> 00:07:47.879 their master of social work content that we're 00:07:47.879 --> 00:07:50.319 required to provide. That's really cool. I think 00:07:50.319 --> 00:07:53.699 one thing I'm excited about with today's podcast 00:07:53.699 --> 00:07:56.279 is that we have both the director of the MSW 00:07:56.279 --> 00:07:58.740 and the director of the PhD program on here. 00:07:59.120 --> 00:08:02.620 And so Olivia, I want to ask you How is it that 00:08:02.620 --> 00:08:05.800 you're engaging with our PhD students around 00:08:05.800 --> 00:08:09.019 issues in addiction and addiction science? So 00:08:09.019 --> 00:08:14.300 as you know, Eric, the PhD program is a little 00:08:14.300 --> 00:08:17.939 different from the MSW program, because my PhD 00:08:17.939 --> 00:08:21.920 program is driven by students' research interests. 00:08:22.620 --> 00:08:25.800 So whenever I see other students are interested 00:08:25.800 --> 00:08:28.699 in addiction, like PhD students are interested 00:08:28.699 --> 00:08:31.980 in addiction, Essentially, one of them I'm trying 00:08:31.980 --> 00:08:34.980 to do is engage them in activity, especially 00:08:34.980 --> 00:08:40.019 the research side of activity is going. the IAS 00:08:40.019 --> 00:08:44.480 Institute for Addiction Science. So for example, 00:08:44.700 --> 00:08:47.940 there is going to be some mini retreat, we call 00:08:47.940 --> 00:08:50.100 that one some mini retreat, by like a research 00:08:50.100 --> 00:08:54.259 retreat, where we are going to get together and 00:08:54.259 --> 00:08:57.200 kind of talking about the study, talking about 00:08:57.200 --> 00:08:59.799 the papers, maybe writing a grant together, that 00:08:59.799 --> 00:09:03.120 kind of thing is happening soon, like in October. 00:09:03.639 --> 00:09:08.120 And myself and my colleague, Dr. Eric Peterson, 00:09:08.559 --> 00:09:11.539 we're going to co -lead that conversation. So 00:09:11.539 --> 00:09:14.620 I invited, I spotted some PhD students who are 00:09:14.620 --> 00:09:17.799 interested in addiction or some of the data that 00:09:17.799 --> 00:09:20.179 is going to be discussed there. Then I invite 00:09:20.179 --> 00:09:22.759 them and they're engaged in the conversation. 00:09:23.370 --> 00:09:26.309 And also, some of our faculty colleagues are 00:09:26.309 --> 00:09:28.769 part of, like many of them, are actually part 00:09:28.769 --> 00:09:32.289 of this institute for addiction science so that 00:09:32.289 --> 00:09:34.990 they're going to be there as well. So I facilitate 00:09:34.990 --> 00:09:38.870 that kind of idea of addiction is really complicated 00:09:38.870 --> 00:09:42.590 problem. Social work alone cannot solve the problem. 00:09:43.070 --> 00:09:46.789 We need help and thinking together so that we 00:09:46.789 --> 00:09:49.929 can solve this addiction problem and provide 00:09:49.929 --> 00:09:53.559 the space. and invited PhD students who are interested 00:09:53.559 --> 00:09:56.940 in addiction, bring in the research space, and 00:09:56.940 --> 00:09:59.539 then they can get exposed, and then hopefully 00:09:59.539 --> 00:10:03.379 they can get some collaboration out of it. I'm 00:10:03.379 --> 00:10:05.639 cognizant of the fact that you both have mentioned 00:10:05.639 --> 00:10:07.519 this Institute for Addiction Science a couple 00:10:07.519 --> 00:10:10.960 of times in the answers that you've been providing 00:10:10.960 --> 00:10:13.720 for us this morning, and I'm wondering if maybe 00:10:13.720 --> 00:10:16.470 we could... take a minute to talk a little bit 00:10:16.470 --> 00:10:19.230 more about this institute and what it's all about 00:10:19.230 --> 00:10:22.110 and and how it functions. So maybe I'll turn 00:10:22.110 --> 00:10:24.830 to you, Olivia, first. So can you just give us 00:10:24.830 --> 00:10:28.029 a little bit of an overview of what is this Institute 00:10:28.029 --> 00:10:30.269 for Addiction Science and how and how have you 00:10:30.269 --> 00:10:34.549 been involved with it? So the yeah, the Institute 00:10:34.549 --> 00:10:37.590 for Addiction Science is actually mouthful because 00:10:37.590 --> 00:10:41.029 I never say the full name in a conversation and 00:10:41.029 --> 00:10:46.629 we call this one as IAS. affectionately and it's 00:10:46.629 --> 00:10:50.309 really like kind of nations of first as far as 00:10:50.309 --> 00:10:54.309 we know university wide like uh addiction science 00:10:54.309 --> 00:10:57.269 space and like we can talk about that one so 00:10:57.269 --> 00:10:59.769 what it is is like there are a lot of people 00:10:59.769 --> 00:11:02.789 from a multiple discipline not just from social 00:11:02.789 --> 00:11:06.029 work from the you know like medicine pharmacy 00:11:06.029 --> 00:11:10.799 and we have nursing folks as well and political 00:11:10.799 --> 00:11:14.779 science and really a wide range of disciplines 00:11:14.779 --> 00:11:17.899 get together and really trying to solve this 00:11:17.899 --> 00:11:21.340 like a complicated problem with addiction. Main 00:11:21.340 --> 00:11:24.740 thing that we are doing in that IAS is substance 00:11:24.740 --> 00:11:28.220 use and also other addiction problem like some 00:11:28.220 --> 00:11:30.899 of us are interested in gambling and whole thing 00:11:30.899 --> 00:11:35.940 and we have the research side, we have four different 00:11:35.940 --> 00:11:39.860 research affinity groups. and each research affinity 00:11:39.860 --> 00:11:41.940 group tackling on their front one. I'm going 00:11:41.940 --> 00:11:45.299 to just mention the one dose of four. The first 00:11:45.299 --> 00:11:48.220 one is called mechanism and treatment development. 00:11:48.500 --> 00:11:51.200 So it's a really treatment -focused group and 00:11:51.200 --> 00:11:54.159 a priority population and health equity. That 00:11:54.159 --> 00:11:56.980 is a vulnerable population, the substance use 00:11:56.980 --> 00:11:59.620 issue and addiction issues among the vulnerable 00:11:59.620 --> 00:12:03.620 population and addiction policy and health economics. 00:12:03.960 --> 00:12:06.679 As you can tell, it is a policy -oriented people. 00:12:06.889 --> 00:12:10.250 like for example, legalization of recreational 00:12:10.250 --> 00:12:12.929 cannabis, what is the impact of those on the 00:12:12.929 --> 00:12:15.570 substance use, those kind of thing, or tax policy, 00:12:15.730 --> 00:12:17.830 those kind of thing is happening in that group. 00:12:18.289 --> 00:12:20.769 And the final one is a community engagement and 00:12:20.769 --> 00:12:25.250 the dissemination. The IAS has really wanted 00:12:25.250 --> 00:12:29.029 to focus on and facilitate the collaboration 00:12:29.029 --> 00:12:32.809 between the research space and the community. 00:12:33.120 --> 00:12:36.580 and not just like isolated we are here and a 00:12:36.580 --> 00:12:38.720 community that are out there is nothing like 00:12:38.720 --> 00:12:42.670 that so so that we have like a constant interaction 00:12:42.670 --> 00:12:45.529 and that we invite the community members and 00:12:45.529 --> 00:12:48.049 we have like some workshop, we have a conversation, 00:12:48.350 --> 00:12:51.490 we have the community advisory board and there's 00:12:51.490 --> 00:12:53.850 ongoing conversation. There's a lot of cool things 00:12:53.850 --> 00:12:56.750 that are going on. So that is a little bit of 00:12:56.750 --> 00:12:59.769 kind of more research aside, but a general idea 00:12:59.769 --> 00:13:04.230 of IAS, interdisciplinary, the global people 00:13:04.230 --> 00:13:08.230 who are really obsessed with this substance is 00:13:08.230 --> 00:13:11.250 a problem. We really dedicate themselves to solve 00:13:11.250 --> 00:13:14.110 this problem. We all realize that this is really 00:13:14.110 --> 00:13:17.129 complex a problem. One discipline cannot solve 00:13:17.129 --> 00:13:20.129 it. So that's a nutshell for me. Jenna, how about 00:13:20.129 --> 00:13:26.509 you? I think that the same concepts apply on 00:13:26.509 --> 00:13:29.129 the curricular side in that we have, you know, 00:13:29.230 --> 00:13:32.230 even within our own university, but certainly 00:13:32.230 --> 00:13:35.570 nationally, there are so many Individuals doing 00:13:35.570 --> 00:13:40.289 such great work. around this area, and that just 00:13:40.289 --> 00:13:43.250 we don't oftentimes have an opportunity to really 00:13:43.250 --> 00:13:47.009 get together and share sort of, you know, across 00:13:47.009 --> 00:13:49.429 discipline, what kinds of things that people 00:13:49.429 --> 00:13:52.830 are doing, and engaging professions across discipline. 00:13:52.830 --> 00:13:56.289 And so in on the education side, the director 00:13:56.289 --> 00:14:00.549 of IAS and I are co teaching a course in the 00:14:00.549 --> 00:14:03.649 master addiction of addiction science. And it's 00:14:03.649 --> 00:14:07.539 the introductory course where students from social 00:14:07.539 --> 00:14:10.259 work and public health and undergrad and grad 00:14:10.259 --> 00:14:12.759 students and alumni. And people are coming back 00:14:12.759 --> 00:14:17.340 to take this course. We invite individuals across 00:14:17.340 --> 00:14:21.259 different areas, policy, research, practice, 00:14:21.659 --> 00:14:25.379 to speak about their experiences to a broad range 00:14:25.379 --> 00:14:30.100 of students. And so the students are able to 00:14:30.100 --> 00:14:33.820 really engage in the research or the practice 00:14:33.820 --> 00:14:37.039 or policy. in really meaningful ways. We have 00:14:37.039 --> 00:14:40.559 this one segment of our class that we do called 00:14:40.559 --> 00:14:44.460 Ask the Expert. This past week we had Christian 00:14:44.460 --> 00:14:47.610 Hendershott. coming and describing his research 00:14:47.610 --> 00:14:53.169 on the use of GLP -1 receptors like Ozempic and 00:14:53.169 --> 00:14:55.909 as a novel treatment for alcohol use disorder. 00:14:56.429 --> 00:14:58.870 And so, you know, these are social work students 00:14:58.870 --> 00:15:00.970 and public health students that would have probably 00:15:00.970 --> 00:15:04.409 never read those articles that were, you know, 00:15:04.570 --> 00:15:06.830 getting exposed to cutting edge research. So 00:15:06.830 --> 00:15:08.690 it was such, you know, it's really cool. We do 00:15:08.690 --> 00:15:11.169 one of those each week across different disciplines. 00:15:11.389 --> 00:15:14.509 That's very cool. I imagine the students in these 00:15:14.600 --> 00:15:17.159 settings have a lot of interesting conversations 00:15:17.159 --> 00:15:19.500 with one another because of the variety of backgrounds 00:15:19.500 --> 00:15:22.059 they come from. They really do. And I think, 00:15:22.139 --> 00:15:25.519 you know, in in our in the profession, more and 00:15:25.519 --> 00:15:28.659 more, there's opportunities for professionals 00:15:28.659 --> 00:15:31.759 to engage in treatment in addiction. Whereas, 00:15:31.840 --> 00:15:34.299 as I said earlier previously, it was more peer 00:15:34.299 --> 00:15:37.639 driven. But I think as it's professionalizing 00:15:37.639 --> 00:15:40.740 the different professional groups are working 00:15:40.740 --> 00:15:44.240 together in practice. And so I think it's that 00:15:44.240 --> 00:15:46.360 we have an opportunity to train them together 00:15:46.360 --> 00:15:49.340 is incredibly valuable. I like the way that both 00:15:49.340 --> 00:15:52.080 of you have described the complexity of working 00:15:52.080 --> 00:15:56.039 on the addiction problem and the need for this 00:15:56.039 --> 00:15:59.759 variety of intellectual perspectives, professional 00:15:59.759 --> 00:16:03.759 orientations. I'm personally a big fan of this, 00:16:03.879 --> 00:16:05.240 which I know the two of you know because I've 00:16:05.240 --> 00:16:07.980 been doing work with. social workers and engineers 00:16:07.980 --> 00:16:10.519 together for a while, but I really love this 00:16:10.519 --> 00:16:14.500 notion of bringing a variety of different intellectual 00:16:14.500 --> 00:16:18.000 perspectives together on research topics. And 00:16:18.000 --> 00:16:19.879 Olivia, I want to turn back to you for a second, 00:16:20.120 --> 00:16:22.799 pick up on a thread that you had started on where 00:16:22.799 --> 00:16:25.820 you were talking about research retreats with 00:16:25.820 --> 00:16:27.980 interdisciplinary groups of folks and involving 00:16:27.980 --> 00:16:31.360 the PhD students. You know, what sorts of opportunities 00:16:31.799 --> 00:16:35.600 Are there or have there been for you as a researcher 00:16:35.600 --> 00:16:38.799 in addiction science as a result of this IAS? 00:16:39.360 --> 00:16:45.720 Yeah, so the because of that the nature of IAS 00:16:45.720 --> 00:16:50.019 in the interdisciplinary and also we are very 00:16:50.019 --> 00:16:53.019 collegial like I was a part of the center grant. 00:16:53.399 --> 00:16:56.720 And when I was a part of the center grant, it 00:16:56.720 --> 00:16:59.860 was a lot of conversation. And I met a lot of 00:16:59.860 --> 00:17:02.960 people whom I have never met before. And also, 00:17:03.100 --> 00:17:06.720 like students in Jen and Adam's class, some of 00:17:06.720 --> 00:17:09.160 them I have never thought about it. As a person 00:17:09.160 --> 00:17:12.940 who was really focused on this poverty and socioeconomic 00:17:12.940 --> 00:17:16.059 status aside for the substance use, I did not 00:17:16.059 --> 00:17:18.539 think about like whatever other element. There's 00:17:18.539 --> 00:17:21.319 so many different elements going on. and I have 00:17:21.319 --> 00:17:24.299 not thought about it. Like there was a new collaboration 00:17:24.299 --> 00:17:27.460 happened between me and some of our colleagues. 00:17:27.619 --> 00:17:30.619 And I'm looking at the really policy aspect and 00:17:30.619 --> 00:17:33.839 neighborhood tax policy that I have never thought 00:17:33.839 --> 00:17:36.720 about it. What is the impact of those kind of 00:17:36.720 --> 00:17:39.619 thing? It's just really cool from that perspective. 00:17:40.059 --> 00:17:42.680 Because of a colleague who is so knowledgeable 00:17:42.680 --> 00:17:46.240 about that, it just made me, inevitably made 00:17:46.240 --> 00:17:49.079 me think about that. And then because of that 00:17:49.079 --> 00:17:52.200 synergy, we created something new together. That 00:17:52.200 --> 00:17:57.680 is really like magic about ISA for me. Absolutely. 00:17:58.799 --> 00:18:01.440 People who are in there and that collegiality, 00:18:01.619 --> 00:18:04.200 they're just willing to chime in with their ideas. 00:18:04.579 --> 00:18:06.819 And we talk about that one. Oh, yeah, that's 00:18:06.819 --> 00:18:09.380 awesome. Let's do it together. And then you make 00:18:09.380 --> 00:18:12.839 it happen. Now, like at the paper level and our 00:18:12.839 --> 00:18:15.440 PhD students, I'm hoping that they can be part 00:18:15.440 --> 00:18:18.160 of some new paper that I have never been before. 00:18:18.420 --> 00:18:21.160 So that is a productivity for our PhD student 00:18:21.160 --> 00:18:25.180 colleague. And then by involving in that collaboration, 00:18:25.619 --> 00:18:28.759 they're going to meet new people that intellectual 00:18:28.759 --> 00:18:32.039 space. That's what is really cool about IAS for 00:18:32.039 --> 00:18:35.099 me. No, I love that. And I want to give you an 00:18:35.099 --> 00:18:37.519 opportunity to talk a little bit about your research, 00:18:37.660 --> 00:18:40.259 Olivia, because, you know, you've just spent 00:18:40.259 --> 00:18:44.319 some time giving a lot of accolades to your colleagues 00:18:44.319 --> 00:18:46.940 who've been inspiring you, but you yourself are 00:18:46.940 --> 00:18:51.059 really an expert in this space. I know recently 00:18:51.059 --> 00:18:53.940 you got a big grant from the National Institute 00:18:53.940 --> 00:18:56.960 of Drug Abuse, yes, and I'm wondering if you 00:18:56.960 --> 00:19:00.180 can talk to our listeners a little bit about 00:19:00.180 --> 00:19:01.880 the work that you're doing and what are the kinds 00:19:01.880 --> 00:19:04.359 of questions that you're exploring in the space 00:19:04.359 --> 00:19:06.849 of addiction. that I can talk about forever. 00:19:08.690 --> 00:19:10.769 Whenever I can talk about like, can you talk 00:19:10.769 --> 00:19:12.990 about what you're doing? I can talk about forever. 00:19:13.450 --> 00:19:15.789 But I'm going to be trying to concise and one 00:19:15.789 --> 00:19:18.869 of the main thing, the essence of that grant 00:19:18.869 --> 00:19:22.730 is SES, social economic status. As you know, 00:19:22.869 --> 00:19:25.150 social economic status includes various things 00:19:25.150 --> 00:19:29.410 like education and income and wealth and job. 00:19:29.710 --> 00:19:34.309 And in this grant, we specifically focus on the 00:19:34.309 --> 00:19:37.990 role of job in the shaping substance use problem. 00:19:38.089 --> 00:19:41.269 So that's the main thing. And also we look at 00:19:41.269 --> 00:19:44.630 the neighborhood, the influence in that context, 00:19:44.849 --> 00:19:48.490 in the relationship between job and a substance 00:19:48.490 --> 00:19:51.690 use, what neighborhood or like role of a neighborhood, 00:19:51.910 --> 00:19:56.779 like we have. neighborhood level of density of 00:19:56.779 --> 00:19:59.039 outlet and whole kind of thing. And there's a 00:19:59.039 --> 00:20:01.480 whole whole list of steps. I'm not going to go 00:20:01.480 --> 00:20:04.799 there. And that is by my colleague Rosalind Pakula, 00:20:04.880 --> 00:20:08.400 Dr. Rosalind Pakula comes in. But anyhow, that 00:20:08.400 --> 00:20:11.420 is what this grant is about. And right now, the 00:20:11.420 --> 00:20:16.140 paper that we are working on is that we're looking 00:20:16.140 --> 00:20:20.599 at this employment status. Typically, including 00:20:20.599 --> 00:20:23.559 my own previous work, what we are doing is with 00:20:23.559 --> 00:20:26.960 employment, we split them up. Like in a way, 00:20:27.339 --> 00:20:29.980 you don't have a job, you have a job. Those are 00:20:29.980 --> 00:20:32.880 the one and see to compare those two, whether 00:20:32.880 --> 00:20:36.579 or not you lost your job that has negative impact 00:20:36.579 --> 00:20:38.720 on the substance use. That is a typical thing. 00:20:38.759 --> 00:20:42.079 That's what I did before too. But there are a 00:20:42.079 --> 00:20:46.289 lot of actually, if you think about In the today's 00:20:46.289 --> 00:20:49.869 job situation, it is not simple like that. There's 00:20:49.869 --> 00:20:53.490 a lot of more like a gray area. One of them is 00:20:53.490 --> 00:20:56.730 under employment. So you have a job, but you 00:20:56.730 --> 00:21:00.309 have a bad job. And then whether or not having 00:21:00.309 --> 00:21:03.109 a bad job has an influence on your substance 00:21:03.109 --> 00:21:06.069 use. So that that kind of thing. The other one 00:21:06.069 --> 00:21:10.769 is we are focusing on transition, not just at 00:21:10.769 --> 00:21:13.650 a given point, whether or not you have a job. 00:21:13.920 --> 00:21:16.799 but you have a bad job, or you don't have a job, 00:21:17.519 --> 00:21:19.880 or you're not working. Instead of just looking 00:21:19.880 --> 00:21:23.460 at those four categories at a single point, we're 00:21:23.460 --> 00:21:26.220 trying to understand their history, where they're 00:21:26.220 --> 00:21:29.339 coming from. Then right now they have a bad job, 00:21:29.779 --> 00:21:32.539 but it doesn't mean that they had a bad job before, 00:21:32.539 --> 00:21:35.619 or they actually had a good job and now they 00:21:35.619 --> 00:21:38.880 have a bad job. Versus, they did not have a job 00:21:38.880 --> 00:21:41.599 before, but now they have a job, even if that 00:21:41.599 --> 00:21:45.240 is not an ideal job. Does that trajectory has 00:21:45.240 --> 00:21:48.000 different influence on the substance use? That's 00:21:48.000 --> 00:21:50.900 what we are doing. The one interesting thing, 00:21:51.039 --> 00:21:54.319 at least really interesting to me, is that the 00:21:54.319 --> 00:21:56.940 trajectory wise, one other thing that we find 00:21:56.940 --> 00:22:00.720 is that downward movement, the meaning is you 00:22:00.720 --> 00:22:04.200 have a secure good job and move to the underemployed, 00:22:04.220 --> 00:22:08.380 so not a good job, while losing a job has negative 00:22:08.380 --> 00:22:10.920 impact on substance use. So specifically in this 00:22:10.920 --> 00:22:14.630 paper that I'm thinking, is binge drinking, problematic 00:22:14.630 --> 00:22:17.490 alcohol use. So that one is kind of expected. 00:22:17.650 --> 00:22:21.529 You had a secure job, you moved to the unfavorable 00:22:21.529 --> 00:22:24.309 employment status, so it has negative impact 00:22:24.309 --> 00:22:27.809 on substance use. That is one. But one of the 00:22:27.809 --> 00:22:30.450 really interesting thing, at least again to us, 00:22:30.630 --> 00:22:34.410 is that upward movement. So meaning is, you did 00:22:34.410 --> 00:22:36.950 not have a job, and not having a job, you're 00:22:36.950 --> 00:22:40.450 moving to a bad job situation. Now you have a 00:22:40.450 --> 00:22:43.839 job, but the job is bad. or you moving to the 00:22:43.839 --> 00:22:47.759 secure job and whether or not that has impact 00:22:47.759 --> 00:22:50.299 in terms of substance use, in terms of alcohol 00:22:50.299 --> 00:22:54.960 problem. What we see is if people move from the 00:22:54.960 --> 00:23:00.000 unemployed status to the secure job, the risk 00:23:00.000 --> 00:23:04.400 is the same to you staying in the secure job. 00:23:04.480 --> 00:23:07.180 So there is no difference. It does not have any 00:23:07.180 --> 00:23:11.039 importance. However, if you move not having a 00:23:11.039 --> 00:23:16.019 job to bad job, the risk actually increase. So 00:23:16.019 --> 00:23:19.480 that upward movement in the employment status, 00:23:20.200 --> 00:23:23.640 depending on your destination, your binge drinking 00:23:23.640 --> 00:23:27.339 risk differ. So these kind of thing that nuance 00:23:27.339 --> 00:23:30.960 understanding and then the policy implication, 00:23:31.319 --> 00:23:34.900 if we use any job is better, that means we may 00:23:34.900 --> 00:23:38.519 put the people in. not a good situation in terms 00:23:38.519 --> 00:23:41.319 of like alcohol problem. It's fascinating stuff. 00:23:41.380 --> 00:23:44.319 And I think you bring up a couple of things that 00:23:44.319 --> 00:23:46.720 I just can't help but comment on. I mean, one 00:23:46.720 --> 00:23:50.059 is that it's complex, right? Both of you have 00:23:50.059 --> 00:23:53.539 said over and over, this is complex. And even 00:23:53.539 --> 00:23:56.279 this one set of findings that you're sharing 00:23:56.279 --> 00:23:59.109 with us, there's complexity to it. The other 00:23:59.109 --> 00:24:00.849 thing that I think is really interesting is that 00:24:00.849 --> 00:24:04.690 it reflects also the stresses of transitions, 00:24:04.690 --> 00:24:07.950 right? That not necessarily, even if transitions 00:24:07.950 --> 00:24:11.750 might on some level seem like good transitions 00:24:11.750 --> 00:24:14.750 from the outside, you know, people don't necessarily 00:24:14.750 --> 00:24:18.069 always respond in the ways that we would think 00:24:18.069 --> 00:24:20.690 people would respond to those sorts of situations. 00:24:20.690 --> 00:24:23.450 And that's actually what I wanted to go with 00:24:23.450 --> 00:24:27.349 as a parting serve ideas. for us to talk about, 00:24:27.390 --> 00:24:29.650 which is that I think in a lot of social work 00:24:29.650 --> 00:24:33.029 domains, there's misunderstandings, right? People 00:24:33.029 --> 00:24:36.089 have preconceived notions about whole sorts of 00:24:36.089 --> 00:24:38.150 issues around mental health. And I'm sure that 00:24:38.150 --> 00:24:40.210 people have preconceived notions about substance 00:24:40.210 --> 00:24:42.309 use and addiction. And I'm wondering from your 00:24:42.309 --> 00:24:43.950 perspectives both, and maybe I'll turn first 00:24:43.950 --> 00:24:47.170 to you, Jen, and then to Olivia, if you had the 00:24:47.170 --> 00:24:49.769 opportunity to help our listeners understand 00:24:49.769 --> 00:24:53.430 better something about... addiction. Is there 00:24:53.430 --> 00:24:56.849 some some myth that you would like to myth bust? 00:24:57.769 --> 00:24:59.470 You know, let people know kind of what the reality 00:24:59.470 --> 00:25:02.390 of working with clients is really like. I appreciate 00:25:02.390 --> 00:25:04.849 that question, Erica, because I think that previous 00:25:04.849 --> 00:25:07.170 models, while effective for some, really looked 00:25:07.170 --> 00:25:09.650 at sort of the moral failings of individuals 00:25:09.650 --> 00:25:12.670 related to addiction. And a lot of the treatment 00:25:12.670 --> 00:25:15.769 was based on that. And so that may be helpful 00:25:15.769 --> 00:25:19.309 for some people, but not all. And I think the 00:25:19.309 --> 00:25:22.549 reason that social work is positioned very well 00:25:22.549 --> 00:25:25.609 to be at the table, because what we know is that 00:25:25.609 --> 00:25:28.190 addiction often develops from the context of 00:25:28.190 --> 00:25:31.789 stress and trauma and social disadvantage. and 00:25:31.789 --> 00:25:35.589 that those struggles have a ripple effect outward 00:25:35.589 --> 00:25:39.730 and put strain onto families and communities, 00:25:40.049 --> 00:25:42.690 healthcare systems, justice systems, and they're 00:25:42.690 --> 00:25:45.769 expensive. Addiction's tied to so many layers 00:25:45.769 --> 00:25:50.009 of human experience. And so prevention and treatment 00:25:50.009 --> 00:25:52.990 has to be holistic for it to be effective. And 00:25:52.990 --> 00:25:56.269 so I think that what I appreciate about our opportunities 00:25:56.269 --> 00:25:59.730 to engage in this educationally is that if we 00:25:59.730 --> 00:26:03.130 could just provide somebody a pill or you know 00:26:03.130 --> 00:26:07.210 address one factor. with addiction and be successful 00:26:07.210 --> 00:26:10.069 in that way, we would do it. But it's not effective, 00:26:10.069 --> 00:26:12.670 unfortunately, for enough people. And so really, 00:26:12.829 --> 00:26:16.369 we have to really look at the systemic factors 00:26:16.369 --> 00:26:20.490 that are impacting recovery. Olivia, what's something 00:26:20.490 --> 00:26:22.589 that you feel like you would like to help people 00:26:22.589 --> 00:26:25.809 understand better that you think is a misunderstanding? 00:26:26.309 --> 00:26:29.630 I think my take on is I really appreciate this 00:26:29.630 --> 00:26:32.730 question as well. And I think my thought is similar 00:26:32.730 --> 00:26:37.490 to Jen. one on earth was born with a glass of 00:26:37.490 --> 00:26:40.670 beer in their hand. It's all addiction problem 00:26:40.670 --> 00:26:43.890 and everything. No one really, literally is born 00:26:43.890 --> 00:26:47.099 that way. that all the addiction issues and struggles 00:26:47.099 --> 00:26:50.940 that we see among the people, that happens because 00:26:50.940 --> 00:26:54.000 something happened, like something, some other 00:26:54.000 --> 00:26:56.900 external factor, not because they're morally 00:26:56.900 --> 00:27:00.859 wrong. So having that perception that it's not 00:27:00.859 --> 00:27:03.599 like individual problem, they can fix it and 00:27:03.599 --> 00:27:05.539 you got to like, you know, like tough it up. 00:27:05.839 --> 00:27:08.220 It's not like that. It's really complicated. 00:27:08.859 --> 00:27:11.400 The social determinants side of an addiction 00:27:11.400 --> 00:27:13.480 problem, we've got to pay attention to that one 00:27:13.480 --> 00:27:17.440 a lot. The other one is that prevention. Like 00:27:17.440 --> 00:27:19.900 addiction problem, we talk about today, like 00:27:19.900 --> 00:27:22.460 Jen and I and Eric, all three of us talk about 00:27:22.460 --> 00:27:26.440 specifically addiction problem. But before substance 00:27:26.440 --> 00:27:29.799 use problem happening, there is other precursors. 00:27:30.019 --> 00:27:32.660 So we can intervene. though, like for example, 00:27:32.880 --> 00:27:35.440 exercise and behavior issue, which is happening 00:27:35.440 --> 00:27:38.500 a lot before the substance is a problem. That 00:27:38.500 --> 00:27:41.460 one is happening a lot earlier. And we had I 00:27:41.460 --> 00:27:44.400 had some studies looking at the children's exercise 00:27:44.400 --> 00:27:47.940 and behavior problem from age 2 .5. So that like 00:27:47.940 --> 00:27:50.700 that kind of prevention idea, we got to have 00:27:50.700 --> 00:27:53.720 that one in our mind as well. So balance between 00:27:53.720 --> 00:27:56.720 prevention and treatment. And the other is the 00:27:56.720 --> 00:28:00.190 social determinants. of addiction problem, not 00:28:00.190 --> 00:28:03.490 putting all the blame to an individual who are 00:28:03.490 --> 00:28:06.069 currently struggling and need help. Right. No, 00:28:06.210 --> 00:28:09.069 that's great. This is such a complex issue and 00:28:09.069 --> 00:28:13.420 one that covers a huge span of disciplines. We 00:28:13.420 --> 00:28:15.460 haven't, as you just said, Olivia, we haven't 00:28:15.460 --> 00:28:17.400 even really gotten into talking about prevention. 00:28:17.519 --> 00:28:20.380 It's mostly been about treatment so far. So I 00:28:20.380 --> 00:28:22.980 hope that you will come back, tons more for us 00:28:22.980 --> 00:28:25.819 to dive into. But before we go, I just wanna 00:28:25.819 --> 00:28:28.099 give you each a chance if there's any parting 00:28:28.099 --> 00:28:30.299 thoughts that you have that you haven't had a 00:28:30.299 --> 00:28:32.539 chance to share that you'd like to share about 00:28:32.539 --> 00:28:35.220 your work. Jen, maybe you can go first and then 00:28:35.220 --> 00:28:37.079 Olivia, you can close us out. Is there anything 00:28:37.079 --> 00:28:40.500 that you'd like to share, Jen? for the opportunity 00:28:40.500 --> 00:28:43.519 that I've had to participate in some of this. 00:28:44.339 --> 00:28:47.440 I think certainly I wasn't, I didn't start out 00:28:47.440 --> 00:28:51.099 as a addiction curriculum developer by any means, 00:28:51.359 --> 00:28:55.140 but I think or in any way, you know, I'm a social 00:28:55.140 --> 00:28:58.400 worker as well and have been doing direct practice. 00:28:58.420 --> 00:29:01.940 And I think it's been really exciting to address 00:29:01.940 --> 00:29:05.740 areas in innovative ways that sometimes academics 00:29:05.740 --> 00:29:07.980 don't get to do. And so it's just been really 00:29:07.980 --> 00:29:11.099 fun. And I'm very grateful for the opportunity 00:29:11.099 --> 00:29:13.400 and the students who have been able to participate 00:29:13.400 --> 00:29:15.920 and be engaged and learn something new as well. 00:29:15.920 --> 00:29:18.799 So I'm hoping that we'll be able to continue 00:29:18.799 --> 00:29:21.380 this type of work and really start to measure 00:29:21.380 --> 00:29:24.380 the impact that we're having. And other universities 00:29:24.380 --> 00:29:27.099 will be able to replicate the model. Very cool. 00:29:27.200 --> 00:29:29.700 Very cool. Olivia, some parting thoughts for 00:29:29.700 --> 00:29:32.059 our listeners? They usually start not really 00:29:32.059 --> 00:29:34.640 and have something to say. Perfect. That's what 00:29:34.640 --> 00:29:41.900 we're looking for. I really appreciate this opportunity 00:29:41.900 --> 00:29:45.119 to talk about and it actually helps me to think 00:29:45.119 --> 00:29:49.220 about my own work and my collaboration with the 00:29:49.220 --> 00:29:53.400 folks and everything. I guess I got to come back 00:29:53.400 --> 00:29:56.559 to the main point that I was trying to come across 00:29:56.559 --> 00:29:58.759 throughout the whole hour conversation today 00:29:58.759 --> 00:30:01.990 is that Addiction is a really, really complicated 00:30:01.990 --> 00:30:05.529 problem. We need everyone's help and everyone's 00:30:05.529 --> 00:30:09.750 intellectual capacity so that we can solve this 00:30:09.750 --> 00:30:14.890 problem. And it will be really incredible someday. 00:30:15.369 --> 00:30:19.450 we can say I can say that I contributed at least 00:30:19.450 --> 00:30:23.170 a point or one percent of that additional problem 00:30:23.170 --> 00:30:25.890 down the road and we can talk about that one 00:30:25.890 --> 00:30:28.470 at some point without without my colleagues and 00:30:28.470 --> 00:30:31.089 whole kind of thing at the end we can say we 00:30:31.089 --> 00:30:33.710 did something together to solve problem even 00:30:33.710 --> 00:30:37.700 if It was not a 90%, but we did something together. 00:30:37.819 --> 00:30:40.140 That's beautiful. And I think there's probably 00:30:40.140 --> 00:30:43.259 no doubt in at least my mind that the work that 00:30:43.259 --> 00:30:47.799 you are both doing will be more than a 0 .0001 00:30:47.799 --> 00:30:50.980 % contribution to this massive problem. And it 00:30:50.980 --> 00:30:54.180 is such a big problem. And it's great to see 00:30:54.180 --> 00:30:56.519 people from our school being so heavily involved 00:30:56.519 --> 00:30:59.299 in the education and research aspects of trying 00:30:59.299 --> 00:31:02.519 to help. Our society deal with such a major problem 00:31:02.519 --> 00:31:06.119 that addiction is. So thank you both to Jen and 00:31:06.119 --> 00:31:08.920 Olivia for joining us today. If you, the listener, 00:31:08.960 --> 00:31:11.960 want to learn more about the USC Institute for 00:31:11.960 --> 00:31:14.279 Addiction Science or the Master of Addiction 00:31:14.279 --> 00:31:17.099 Science program, you can visit our school's website 00:31:17.099 --> 00:31:21.579 at dwarracpeck .usc .edu. And if you have questions 00:31:21.579 --> 00:31:24.160 for our guests on the show or you want to support 00:31:24.160 --> 00:31:27.000 our transformative research and education programs, 00:31:27.339 --> 00:31:30.619 you can email us at listenup .edu. people at 00:31:30.619 --> 00:31:34.339 usc .edu. And Jen, Olivia, thank you both again 00:31:34.339 --> 00:31:37.259 for joining me today. And thanks again for doing 00:31:37.259 --> 00:31:39.559 such wonderful work in the world. Thank you for 00:31:39.559 --> 00:31:41.640 having me. Thank you, Eric. Appreciate it.