Hello and welcome to Listen Up People, a podcast
of the USC Suzanne Dworak-Peck School of Social
Work. I'm Dr. Eric Rice, professor and associate
dean for research. Today we're going to talk
about social work and sports. Awareness of the
connection between physical and emotional health
has grown in recent years. Sports can serve as
a protective factor for at -risk populations
from elementary school to professionals. Yet
despite these benefits, elite collegiate athletes
display higher risk of anxiety, depression, and
suicidal ideation than their peers. My guests
are part of a faculty group that collaborated
to create a new course at USC that aims to demonstrate
how the integration of social work and sports
can promote well -being, inclusivity, personal
growth, and foster positive change within individuals'
communities. and society. I'd like to welcome
my two guests, Dr. Steve Hydon, teaching professor
of practicum education and the director of social
work in schools, and Dr. Aimee Odette, associate
teaching professor. Both have extensive experience
working with children in school settings as well
as personal passions for the role that sports
and exercise can play in mental health and wellness.
It's great to have you both here. I would love
to start off with a question to get more into
something personal before I dive into your new
program and your course, which is, okay, social
work and sports is not necessarily two words
that people put together too frequently. I guess,
well, social work is two words itself. So three
words people put together. So Aimee I'll turn
to you first and then I'll turn to Steve. How
did you get involved in bringing social work
and sports together? Specifically for the course,
Steve invited me to be a part of the development
of it. But for me, I have been a student athlete
for as long as I can remember. elementary school,
middle school, high school up until college.
So it was something that was very much a big
part of my life. I also have three boys. They're
not really boys anymore. They're young men who
all spent time playing sports. And I have one
who is a collegiate athlete right now. So I see
the impact that sports. can have on an individual.
And I think that we as social workers have an
amazing opportunity to have an impact on athletics.
Cool, cool. So Steve, how did you get into this
space? Yeah, very similar. Thanks for the question,
Eric, and good to see you both. And I too was
a scholastic athlete. You could not keep me indoors.
I was outside all the time, whether it was cross
-country running or track or soccer or hoops.
It was just sort of a love of mine. And then
for the last few years, been kind of moving into
this space around athletics and sports and mental
health and resilience and social work. I'm privileged
enough to be on a university committee, the USAC
committee, which looks at sort of faculty and
staff and relationships with collegiate athletes.
And that's been eye opening for me. And then
our former president of the university sort of
launched these moonshots. And one of them was
around sports and well -being and kind of that
being an outward facing type of program. And
so I... worked with some colleagues at our school
and we just started to think about well what
is sports and social work and this is not a new
phenomenon it's actually a space that's been
out there nationally for many many years and
so we thought well I think we're primed and positioned
here in the heart of Los Angeles which is a primary
hub for sports to sort of move into the direction
of looking at wellness of athletes and their
resilience and their mental health. And being
a school of social work, we felt like we had
a lot of expertise to lend to this discipline.
So yeah, that's how I got into it. And I'm so
glad I made, I made that choice a few years ago.
That's great. It's great to hear that you both
have this personal connection, not only as social
workers, but also as having had history of being
athletes. And Steve, one of the things you mentioned
there at the end was the mental health and wellbeing
and, and student athletes. And I think there's
There's been some high profile collegiate student
athletes that have begun to speak openly about
mental health struggles. And I guess the question
here is how is it that social work in particular
might be able to help athletes to not suffer
in silence? Yeah, I'm so glad that we do have
athletes that have come out publicly on what
they've been experiencing. It kind of confirms
the need. and validates what we're trying to
build here at the School of Social Work. I think
because of the expertise we have, we sort of
have positioned ourselves to embrace those conditions
that athletes face, whether it's mental health,
whether it's substance abuse, performance anxiety,
isolation, bullying, all these different sort
of ways that athletes experience. these conditions
and I think our role is to, as you suggested,
sort of bring out their voice, highlight why
there's a special attention specifically to athletes.
that social workers can fulfill. A lot of the
individuals as we started to talk about this
initiative and whether it was with colleagues
like Aimee and Professor Rafael Angulo, who was
also instrumental in the development of the course,
and many other colleagues. I also talked with
external colleagues of mine across the country
about they were once athletes or they had to,
Dr. Odette's point, they have children who are
athletes. I've talked to school districts who
have said, yeah, I've seen that in our school
campuses. And so thank you. for addressing this
and bringing kind of some attention to this very
needed area of practice. So yeah, I think that's
one of the goals of ours is to, again, allow
athletes to feel comfortable expressing who they
are and what they're going through and how we
can help them get through their day -to -day
sort of progress. I think, and I don't want this
to come out wrong or sound like I'm downplaying
a high -profile athlete coming out and saying
that I've struck with this, but there is a certain
level of privilege to be able to do that. And
I think that where we can absolutely have an
impact are those. local groups, the young kids
within our communities that they don't have the
resources. The coaches don't know how to have
that conversation with the kids. I spoke just
a moment ago, how I have a son who is, he's playing
collegiate baseball and he is at a very, a school
that has a lot of resources. And he was excited.
He said, mom, we've got a mental health professional
coming to talk to us at the beginning. a fall
ball, but the conversation was, hey, I'm here
if you need anything. And that to me, I mean,
it's great that they know that there's somebody
there, but that doesn't help them have the conversation.
And I think that's where this course and what
we're doing can help people kind of get us integrated
to help folks have the conversation. That's such
an interesting point. I think mental health and
struggling with mental health is still this taboo
topic for lots and lots and lots of communities.
And are you envisioning this course and sports
as a way of helping break down some of those
barriers? Is this part of the mission as well,
other than just reaching out to athletes who
may be suffering, but also the power of sports
as a vehicle to engage communities? Well, so
I can start here then Aimee I'm sure we'll share.
And that is one of the things that Aimee said was
how do coaches talk with their athletes? And
I think part of that is teaching language and
vocabulary. And that's experiencing some of these
conditions is a very real thing. And we're not
talking about sort of athletes who, yes, the
elite and the privileged, but also athletes that
are sort of hard to reach and hard to encourage
to want to talk. Oftentimes, coaches are role
models. Whether we want to believe that or not,
they are. And so athletes look up to them. And
they look to them to be led in particular directions
or in particular pathways. And so one of the
assignments in the course, and I'm so excited
that we're going to be talking about this, is
that students have to actually interview a coach.
and interview the coach and what is their idea
of mental health? How do you address mental health
in your facilities, on your on your playgrounds,
in your fields? And surprisingly, which is a
really good thing, we've learned that there are
coaches that have some awareness of these conditions.
They believe in mental health. They believe in
mindfulness engagement. They believe in open
door policies. So they may not have the in -depth
knowledge of how to address mental health conditions
the way a social worker would do. They certainly
have an awareness that I think has come along.
Over the last few years, and so there's almost
this sort of, yep, I understand that this is
something that we want to embrace and I'm glad
that I can work with a mental health or school
social worker, somebody who I can refer my athlete
to. But yes, certainly encourage that and it's
not about. toughen up and just, you know, get
through what you need to get through, not at
all. The conversations that our students have
had with the coaches that they've identified
have been pretty positive. And that was really
refreshing to see. That's great. Amy, do you
want to add to that? I would like to add to that,
please. You know, we need to meet people where
they're at. That is not a new concept in social
work, either. And that's something that we teach
Social Work 101. Meet people where they are at.
And so I think with social work and sports, it's
meeting them on the playing field. meeting them
in parks, meeting them at their dance class,
meeting them in yoga, meeting them where they
are naturally coming together as a community.
I think that there is a misconception about who
we are as a profession. I think today, if you
still ask people, what does a social worker do?
Aren't those the people that take kids out of
people's homes and that kind of thing? So I think
we have such an opportunity here to show our
strengths as community organizers by being in
our communities where folks are at. And so I
think then that also takes some of that taboo
away around or the stereotype or the shame around
mental health, mental wellness, so. But I love
what you're saying here too, which is that. It's
also an opportunity for social workers to do
a little bit of, for lack of a better way of
putting it, PR around what it is that we as social
workers in our profession do. And have you been
experiencing... a positive reception in communities
when you are approaching these sports teams and
athletes as a social worker? So I know that our
students have, and to Amy's point, which was
a great one, and that is, again, part of that
assignment is to not only interview a coach,
but to actually go to a park recreational facility,
a rec center, and observe. What do you see? How
do you see people interacting? How do you see
the community embracing sports? We do something
that we call a windshield survey, where they
literally go out in their cars, if they have
one, okay, any motor transportation, and they
compare and contrast two different neighborhoods
with two different recreational and park settings,
and then they interview individuals that are
in those neighborhoods. And again, overwhelmingly,
the response has been positive, people have embraced.
individuals, they've shown support, they've said
come back and let us know how this class has
been moving for you. So that's really been wonderful.
The other thing that's super exciting is that
there's a National Alliance for Social Work and
Sports, which has been around I want to say for
about 10 to 15 years. I know it's a bit of a
large window, but they're solely dedicated. to
this profession of sport and social work? And
how are professional teams? So NBA teams are
required to have mental health staff. I've got
a lot of individuals who have reached out to
say, I'm a social worker for an NFL team. And
so hockey teams, if you look at. some of these
sports where there is violence there's unfortunately
domestic violence there's substance use there's
a need for this profession to be in these spaces
and to bring attention to it not in a shaming
way but more in a helpful approach and that's
what's really exciting about getting into this
profession that this is not something again like
I mentioned earlier it's not new it's something
that's going to be around for a while and we're
glad to be a part of it again especially since
We're at the heart of many huge events that are
coming up with the World Cup and the Olympics
and the Super Bowl and all these wonderful activities.
Why not be involved? How can you not get excited
about it? USC has a small reputation of being
a decent place to be a student athlete. So I
think it's only appropriate that you all are
starting a program where you're really bringing
social work into an appropriate visibility. as
a helping profession around mental health and
behavioral health issues. Like Steve and Aimee,
you both have mentioned the good work that social
workers can do in these communities. I want to
turn a minute for our listeners to be able to
hear a little bit more about this course that
you've started. You've alluded to these... cool
assignments where you're sending students out
into the community to really see where are people
at, as Aimee pointed out. But can you talk a little
bit about the process of creating this course?
And really, I think the thing that's most exciting
to me is what is the student reception been?
I mean, perfect. Yeah, sure. I mean, so what
happened was a few years ago, myself, Aimee, and
I mentioned Rafael Angulo a little bit earlier.
we said, you know, let's think about what a course
in an elective would look like. And what's one
of the first goals was to look at what's already
being offered in other schools. So we're not
replicating that or maybe we're filling in some
gaps. And so that was the first kind of mini
lit review. And then we came together and we
literally just sat down and said, okay. It's
a 15 unit course. Amy, you take a few weeks.
I'll take a few weeks. Rafael, you take a few
weeks. But what's important to us? And we didn't
want the course to focus on one particular athlete.
We wanted to focus on the lifespan of an athlete.
So scholastic, collegiate, professional, older
adults. We had a lot of fun building out this
course, looking at women's rights, looking at
mental health interventions. looking at substance
use, looking at the mentality of an athlete,
what happens when you're injured or sports is
no longer part of your DNA, then what happens
and how do you deal with some of that isolation
and maybe even depression that might sit in.
When you look at the protective factors of sports
and why it could be a good thing. that you're
involved in sport activities. So we kind of,
we had a lot of fun also with like the titles.
So like Friday Night Lights is a title. The Mamba
Mentality is a title. There's No Crying in Baseball.
That's one of the titles of the units. We're
all familiar with that Tom Hanks movie. And so
we just got a lot of fun with that. And I think
that captured a lot of the interest. From students,
I literally said to students their very first
class, which was the first time we taught this
class was last spring and the very first class
again. So it would have been in January. And
I said, why did you sign up for this course?
You know, just be honest with me. And we actually
had over enrollment, which was really exciting.
And a good percentage of the students said, you
know, I was a student athlete and I experienced
some of these conditions and I didn't know that
there was somebody out there I could talk to.
Oftentimes it was a high school guidance counselor
and they were great, but they didn't always.
provide what they would need it. And so students
signed up to say I just never thought about this
marriage between sport and social work so that
just got me excited. A couple other students
said it just sounded cool and there was nothing
else left to take. I'm like all right that's
cool. By the time our class was over we had guest
speakers. We had students engaged in debates.
We had students engaged in hot topics. We had
students create podcasts like this. We had students
create motivational speeches. So they literally
would set the stage and say, OK, I'm a coach
in the middle of an auditorium and I'm getting
all my guys ready or girls ready to kind of warm
up and get ready to go out and play. So that
was a lot of fun. The students gave each other
feedback. So we really kind of did this. flip
design style of teaching where the students did
all the activities and they shared and they enjoyed
and then they were able to kind of see while
they brought the breadth and depth of social
work and sports and in my last class and I'll
stop talking so I know Amy has some thoughts
the very last class I said listen you're going
to get an evaluation and you're going to fill
that out and that's wonderful I want to see that
but I'd like to get some I'd like to solicit
some of your feedback now so I can begin to jot
down some ideas that we can think about moving
forward. So overall sort of how was this experience
for you? And overwhelmingly students love the
course, they love the idea, you changed my whole
paradigm and like shift in how I look at athletes
and sports and why social work is so important.
I started off the class not really knowing what
to get, but I was, you know, okay, I was intrigued.
And they left the class feeling much more empowered
with how they look at this field. There are jobs
out there that I forwarded to students, whether
they're in athletic departments or sport facilities.
And then we got some really good feedback about,
hey, it would be great to actually have one class
hybrid and go to a community center on like a
Saturday. And let's actually see people who are
doing this work. And I thought that was great.
And then one of the areas, there was a couple
other areas and another one was on this whole
changing landscape of name, image and likeness.
And how are we looking at students who are using
that for whatever you believe in to their advantage.
And so that was an area that. I'm going to work
on so that we can weave that into the conversation.
Keeping up with the very, very cutting edge of
what's happening in student sports. Amy, do you
have anything you want to add about the design
of the class? Just quickly, when we first got
together to do this, you have your ideas on things
that you think you want to have in the course
or things that you know that you want to have
in the course. I think what was amazing as we
continue to talk was how many things we could
have incorporated into the course that we even
said, gosh, we could have a whole other course
filled. And just how the dynamic between sports
and athletics can be such a wonderful, powerful
dynamic force in an athlete's or an individual's
life, but how there is the flip side too. And
how it can absolutely be a part of maybe even
leading down a path that a student didn't want
to in terms of impacting their mental health
in a negative way. So I think that we tried to
touch on as many things as we could and we didn't
sugarcoat it. Yeah, I know that's that's that's
really powerful. Go ahead, Steve. And I was going
to know I agree 100 % what Amy's saying. The
other thing is this. Word has gotten out. I literally
just got an email this morning from someone at
another institution who wants to meet with me
to talk about, hey, I heard you've got this really
cool sports course. We're thinking about something
similar. Would you mind meeting with me to talk
about it? And I'm like, yeah, of course. Like,
let's talk about it. I've shared the syllabus
with other colleagues. So we're starting to get
out there that people are aware that we're launching
this initiative. And I mentioned earlier a little
bit about the Alliance for Social Work and Sports.
That is one of our next things. annual symposium.
We've spent three years working with their board
and next year they're bringing the alliance here
to Los Angeles and USC for their annual symposium.
So super excited to highlight and profile all
the wonderful work that we're building in this
area. Is this something that is only available
to social work students? I know the focus is
on social work and sports or is this something
that is more broadly open to students at USC?
I really don't know. Broadly open to to any student
who is interested in taking the course. You can
be a graduate student and then there are some
undergraduate students that are eligible to take
graduate courses. We only lost it for the first
time in the spring, so we had 19 of our current
MSW students. But yes, it's open to anybody who's
interested in taking the course and that included.
Did you see people from other departments or
other schools that were trying to get in? I know
you said you had an overflow. I did see people
from outside schools yet, but I have seen a few
people who reached out who aren't at USC. I see
can you tell me a little bit more about this
course and kind of what you're doing over there?
Is there an opportunity for me to do that? So
we've had the interest just have not enrolled
yet. Some of those outside of our school students,
but it's kind of hope is to absolutely do that
though. Yeah, it's coming. It's coming. Yep.
That's great. That's great. Something that you
said. Amy i want to touch back on for just a
second which was that you had said a lot of this
course is focused on not sugar coating the the
some of the issues around how student athletes
may be encountering mental health issues or substance
use issues but i also know that there is a pretty
robust dialogue, especially in work on school
age kids and adolescents that really talks about
the benefits of sports. And is this part of the
course as well? And if so, how do you talk about
social work's role in that? Absolutely. I think
that sports can be a tremendous positive influence.
But go back to something that I said at the very
beginning is that we have to educate people.
I think that just given my experience personally,
given my my kids experiences, I don't think coaches
or they underestimate the impact that they have
on their athletes on their team. And and maybe
it's something in the way that it's well, this
is the way that it's always done, or they have
been doing their job for, you know, so many decades.
there is an opportunity to educate on many levels
because coaches. They are sometimes with our
kids more hours than parents are, depending on
what level of sport, you know, the athlete is
at. I think also, too, that parents need education
on their impact with their student, with their
athlete, the things that we say. It's a huge
piece of it. So, yes, we definitely talk about
it as a protective factor, but I think there's
a tremendous amount of education that needs to
happen at various levels, depending on what league.
Is it a school league? Is it a travel league?
Is it a collegiate league? There needs to be
that dialogue so that we're on the same page
in terms of this isn't shameful to talk about
your feelings. especially in certain sports.
Well, I'm curious to ask a follow up to that
question, but I'm going to pitch it over to Steve
for a second, which is that I would imagine some
of these students who come into this, especially
since you said a lot of them. have backgrounds
as athletes themselves. Is there perspective
on taking this class and engaging in this more
from a college and high school and other athletic
experiences where these great things and I want
to return to this or was it or has it been more
of an experience of this is a complex and nuanced
space and I want to explore that more. I'm just
curious kind of where the headspace of your students
is with respect to these this dynamics. I would
say it's probably leans a little bit towards
the latter, like this complex relationship between
sports and athletes, between marginalized groups,
vulnerable groups, how are we building up courage,
bravery, teamwork, leadership, compassion, all
these wonderful elements that we talk about in
social work all the time. And how are we then
bringing that to the surface through the vehicle
of athletics? Yes, do they want to find perhaps
jobs in those some of those other spaces that
you mentioned? But I think it has been more about
this complex dynamic between how can where do
I fit in the role? Where's the role of social
work? And why is there a need for social work
specifically to be working with student athletes?
I think. That's primarily where our students
so far have been landing in thinking through
these concepts, these ideologies, the literature,
the research. And again, these assignments, it's
interesting to think about assignments as exciting,
but they kind of are. You're outdoors and you're
doing things outside and you're kind of navigating
all those complex, you know, areas that you then
bring back to the classroom conversation. So
there isn't like a final, there isn't a 20 page
paper. These are all more experiential types
of activities. that I think students have resonated
with thus far. That's great. It sounds way better
than sitting in front of a Zoom screen or maybe
even sitting in a basement classroom that I've
certainly taught some MSW courses in without
windows. Not that those classes haven't been
fabulous. No, no, no, of course. Of course they
were. The windowless part is kind of rough sometimes.
So being outdoors in spaces and where people
are participating in sports sounds like a great
experience for a student. Before we wrap up,
I really want to give you each a chance to...
talk about if there's anything in this work that
has been meaningful to you that you really want
to share with our listeners. I think that this
has been such a great and lively conversation.
We have a time for just a little bit of a wrap
up. So maybe I'll turn to Aimee first and then
Steve close it out. Is there anything that you
would like our listeners to know about social
work and sports in general that you haven't had
a chance to talk about? You know, I think that
initially some people might believe this is kind
of an odd pairing or an oddball couple, but it
really isn't. I was thinking about the course
and I was thinking about, you know, some of the
interventions that that we promote. within schools,
one of them being social and emotional learning.
As I was thinking about that, I was thinking
about what an athlete experiences when they're
a part of a team. And it absolutely lines up.
If you think about what, you know, the five components
of social, emotional learning, self -awareness,
you know, learning, learning who you are in your
environment, in your community, with your teammates,
being able to self -manage, right? So you don't
get the red card and get chucked out of the game
or whatever it is, social awareness and relationship
skills and responsible decision making. So the
marriage really is a beautiful marriage that
works really well. And I've said this to Steve
a million times, this is just the beginning.
Well, Steve, you want to take us home? Got some
thoughts for us? Well, I'll just say this, that
not a two or three week window goes by where
I don't get something via email from a colleague
who says, here's an article, here's a story,
here's a publication. here's a podcast. And that's
to Aimee's point, there's so much out there that
we easily could begin to already start thinking
about another course, a certificate in this area
that I think is our future direction. And then
eventually, how can we start to tap into maybe
some research and look at some funding for research
in some of this particular area? And then one
last thing is to have somewhat of a presence
at the LA Olympics, which is in three years.
And I think for us to have some type of platform
or space or stage to sort of highlight and showcase
this very much needed area, that's a personal
goal of mine that I'm hoping to bring to fruition
in a couple of years. Very cool, very cool. Thank
you, Steve, and thank you, Aimee, for such a great
conversation about such an interesting and potentially
truly impactful line of work. And so to our listeners,
if you want to learn more about social work in
sports and the new course at USC, you can visit
our school's website at dwarkpeck .usc .edu.
And if you have any questions for the guests...
or myself, and the transformative research and
programs that happen here at the USC Suzanne
Dworak-Peck School of Social Work, you can email
us at ListenUpPeople @usc.edu. And one more
time, I just want to thank the two of you for
giving me your time and giving the passion and
energy to our students and our communities through
this work. Thank you so much. Thanks, Dr. Rice.