Hello and welcome to Listen Up People, a podcast
of the USC Suzanne Dworak -Peck School of Social
Work. I'm Dr. Eric Rice, professor and associate
dean for research. Today we are going to explore
an unusual topic, the intersection of social
work and law enforcement. Social work and police
work have more overlap than is commonly thought.
Approximately 80 % of calls to police are social
service related. Police are also frontline responders
addressing the situations involving intimate
partner violence, people experiencing homelessness,
substance use or youth related crime, and often
find themselves striving to deescalate a disturbance
or connect people with social services. My guests
today are the founders of a first of its kind
social work and public safety program here at
USC. It's a capacity building partnership that
merges social work with law enforcement. Entering
its 12th year, the program provides a working
partnership and professional development pipeline
between social work, local law enforcement agencies,
and public safety and community -based organizations.
I'd like to welcome today my guest, Dr. Rosemary
Alamo, teaching professor of practicum education,
whose 28 -year career has spanned settings as
diverse as healthcare schools. Public Safety
and Public Child Welfare, and Dr. Rick Ornelas,
Associate Teaching Professor of Practicum Education,
who has over 35 years of law enforcement experience
that he integrates with his social work training
to help reimagine and implement effective public
safety strategies. It is great to have you both.
Welcome. Thank you. Thank you, Eric. Oh, yeah.
Thanks. It's so great to have you both. This
is such a great and in many ways out of the box
topic for social workers for us to talk about
today. And with that in mind, I want to start
with, I guess, something that's maybe a little
more personal, which is why did you both decide
to get involved in this topic? So maybe I'll
turn to you, Rosemary, first. What started your
interest in this? And then I'll move to Rick.
Sure. Thank you again, Eric, for having us. So
basically, my transition into public safety really
grew organically. from what I was witnessing
throughout the traditional social work settings
that I was in. There was a lot of unmet need,
which looked at having individuals, families,
and children, and so forth, encountering law
enforcement through the various crisis that I
would observe, whether it was in the schools
and healthcare. And many times, unfortunately,
they'd end up escalating. Although I could see
the genuine interest and desire to help from
the law enforcement side, I could tell and even
after conversations that they would acknowledge
that they didn't have the skills to address the
mental health needs that were arising in those
or during those interactions. So, at that point,
you know, and. Again, it's been years and years
of doing this work that realizing how important
and how beneficial it would be if we would have
social work and public safety working together.
So that again, we would help support with, you
know, the de -escalation mental health needs
resources and really allow law enforcement to
do their work as far as enforcement. And at the
same time, be able to provide a way for both
of us, both of our disciplines. to learn from
each other, right? We would learn together and
collaboratively to better serve the communities.
And Ricky, from your biography, you come from
a different starting point, but I'm curious how
you came to this work. Yeah, thank you for the
question. I've now been in law enforcement over
35 years. I served 21 years as a law enforcement
sergeant for the Los Angeles school police department,
where I worked in various capacities. And while
I was working as a sergeant, much like Rosemary,
I noticed that 21st century urban policing requires
more than just law policy. and the traditional
law enforcement methods. And law enforcement
alone was not designed to meet the challenges
of the 21st century. For example, behavioral
health, homelessness, substance use, and community
trauma. So at the time, I decided to go back
to school. And what fit for me was a master of
social work program. So I attended USC. at the
time the school of social work and obtained my
master's degree. And then Rosemary and I have
been working together now for over 20 years.
And it was together that we saw the gaps in traditional
law enforcement methods and saw the opportunity
for us to collaborate together, not just to address
the needs of law enforcement in supporting their
their work and providing services to the communities
that they serve, but also support in changing
and re -imagining the way the law enforcement
does its work. So around professional development,
trauma -informed practices, and supporting them
with evidence -based interventions. That's great.
I mean, it seems like the two of you really,
coming from different perspectives, really saw
a shared set of needs. So with that in mind,
what, what is this program that you've created?
Can you, I mean, it's been around for a long
time, but I'm going to guess that most of the
listeners of this podcast are going to be scratching
their heads about what is, okay, I get it now
that there's this need. What are you doing to
fill that gap? Well, you know, Eric, I can tell
you, so let's start with the law enforcement
training with the public safety training in California.
So in the police academies currently cadets and
or recruits receive about 15 hours of. behavioral
health training. Okay. Uh, and then the training
officers receive about three hours of behavioral
health training. And then now it's moved to about
four hours. So one, we see the gap there, right?
Just, just in terms of, uh, addressing some of
the needs that one law enforcement requires and
then the needs of the community. We also saw
the opportunity for our students to truly practice
integrative social work practice. Our students
work across not just populations, settings, and
systems to support law enforcement in a number
of capacities, right? So we're talking about
direct services, with families, with youth, also
engaged in program development, program implementation,
evaluation, supporting families through group
services as well. And I'll pause there. Oh, sure,
sure. I mean, I'm sure there's a lot too, but
I was going to say, Rosemary, are our MSW students
also involved in this capacity? Absolutely. And
so basically what happens is we are involved
with public safety or law enforcement across
the country. So we the word has spread. And so
the way it happens is the law enforcement agency
or public safety will contact us and say, we've
heard about the work that you're doing, right?
And so what we do, we sit down with their command
staff, administrators, and help customize the
services and integrating our MSW interns into
those services based on the needs that they have
identified their communities to have. and communities
that basically, because maybe they're undocumented,
maybe because they don't have transportation
or access to the resources, then what happens,
you know, they don't go and don't, you know,
access those resources. And so therefore, our
interns are then critical in providing these
services. So we customize the program, the services
for each agency. And we incorporate our interns
again, as Rick mentioned, across the three levels
of practice. So ensuring that the youth families,
individuals are getting those services while
simultaneously working and supporting the officers
so that they themselves will be in a better place,
not only individually, but in a better place
to be able to support the communities that they
are there to support and serve. So do you then
have? actual placements of our MSW students who
are then working in some ways side by side with
law enforcement? Is that part of how that happens?
Yes, absolutely. So what happens is that we have
students that are actually working side by side
with the officer or public safety to respond
to out in the community. So it could be whether
they're responding to referrals. mental health
crisis related or they're providing follow -up
to calls that officers have made and to be able
to provide services. They have supported victims
that are coming in from domestic violence. The
officers will go ahead and you know conduct that
service call and then the social work intern
will follow up and meet with that individual.
and provide assess and provide the resources
and services needed to include even going with
them to obtain a restraining order if needed
and walk them through that process. So it really
varies and it will see them side by side. We
see them being the the using also like the alternate
response where if there is no safety concerns
that social work intern will take the lead. I
see, I see. So very, you know, it fluctuates
based on the need and what the community is presenting
with. Rick, did you want to add to that? You
look like you've got something on the tip of
your tongue. Well, thank you. I was, you know,
our students not only provide the services that
Rosemary mentioned, but they also develop essential
knowledge, skills and abilities, secondary collaboration
between social work, public safety and the legal
systems. Our Our students provide crisis intervention
strategies, trauma -informed care, and mental
health services to include advocacy, case management,
and policy analysis. Additional skills that our
students develop is crisis intervention and de
-escalation and learning how to navigate the
legal system. And students build on their strengths
to develop professional relationships within
diverse communities and stakeholders. They also
receive hands -on practice in real world settings.
Yeah, no, that makes sense. I was going to say
when you were mentioning about the... some some
phrases that I think are probably more familiar
to people that think about social work more proven
like trauma informed lenses to to taking problems.
I mean, how are those approaches received in
the public safety settings that these students
are being placed in? I have to say they are they
have been so open and receptive. at least based
on our experiences. Many of them, I can tell
you in numerous occasions where to include a
lieutenant that said, you know what, after hanging
out with these interns, I'm now using reflections.
I'm now using affirmations and actually identifying
the particular intervention using the language.
And he's like, after, I don't know, over 30 years,
I never thought that I would, you know, be doing
this, right? And having officers also that have
partnered with the social workers say, man, boy,
does this social work intern really, you know,
she helps me see things from a different perspective.
Yeah. Or, you know, I never thought about it
that way. I would imagine also, though, that
the social work students themselves. Yes. Transformed
by this experience, right? Yes, I have a hard
time imagining that you have a lot of social
work students who might say this is my first
choice of an internship to be placed with public
safety, but I would imagine it's a pretty powerful
transformative experience. I mean, what is the
reaction been from those students? I mean, I
don't know, really, this is something you want
to you want to answer for a second. Maybe go
also with Rosemary with this as well, too. But
I'm really curious how our students respond to
this. Well, you know, I can tell you that we've
been fortunate that the students that that we
have within, that collaborate with our agency
partners are doing it because they are committed
and dedicated to supporting the legal system.
We've now had over 200 students come through
our program since its inception. And while some
of the early on questions or confusion both from
law enforcement and from the MSW students is,
how do we engage within this culture, within
this system? that might look very different,
right? While both are committed to providing
services, problem solving and building trust
with the community. And to our surprise, our
MSW interns have not only had an impact. but
they also have a new and true appreciation for
the challenges and pressures that law enforcement
faces, right? Earlier, you mentioned that 80
% of the calls for service for law enforcement
are social services related. And then we also
talked about the gap in the training, right?
Only 15 hours during the academy and then four
hours post -academy. So clearly there's a gap
there between the training that law enforcement
receives and the calls for service. So our MSW
students now learned the challenges that the
legal system and or law enforcement faces due
to those gaps. And so one, there's a true appreciation
They also see that there's a human side to law
enforcement. Right. And then they also have a
further understanding and appreciation how we
can bring both of those disciplines and professions
together so that they get the best of each talents
and gifts. It's such an interesting, as I said
earlier, out of the box partnership, right? I
think, as you said, Rick, both are social servants,
both are groups of people who are there dedicated
to service. Right. I mean, this is the mantras
of police departments and social workers is very
much about service and yet from a very different
cultural angle. Right. And and I guess with that
in mind. What have been some of the surprises
for for you all in this? I mean, I know maybe
some might even think like, oh, well, obviously
everything's a surprise. But I mean, there's
got to be something that in particular struck
you as this. This was this was a learning moment
that I wasn't that I wasn't I didn't see coming
in coming into this. Maybe I turned to you, Rosemary,
first and then to you. Yes. Love to hear your
reflections on this. Yes. Well, I have to say,
you know, we we meet with all the students that
go through the program. So we go ahead and pre
screen and to be able to determine the goodness
of fit before sending off for their interviews
with the agencies and Sometimes I have to say
there's you know, there's either that excitement
or you know what? I'm not sure but I'm willing
to try it right and The surprise comes in when
that student says, you know, I was coming in
with all these preconceived notions These misperceptions
of what? how things are within law enforcement.
And I realized that it wasn't like that, right?
Realizing that there is a human being on both
sides and also along with the fact that many
of these social workers, because of this experience
that these interns have had and the great job
they have done, that they have been recruited
and hired by these agencies, which was, you know,
initially like, wow, yeah, that would be great.
But then ultimately, it became like a reality,
like a dream come true. And so that's been like
phenomenal to see that indeed, the outcome, you
know, couldn't be more positive. Here it is,
a social work intern coming in and really doing
such a phenomenal job that now that agency says,
you know, I don't know how we did it without
you. We need you. and they advocate and they
bring them on board. And hence now you have somebody
influencing the system inside. So you actually
have a social worker working in a public safety
or police organization. Exactly. Wow. Either
with, again, side by side or an alternate alternate
response programs. So they're spread out. That's
great. That's great. Rick, what surprised you
as you got into this work? Well, I can tell you
that from my experience in my over 20 years with
the L .A. School Police Department. Sure. The
only interaction that I had with social workers
at the time was when there was a crisis. So now
what is striking to me is now how law enforcement
has moved to embracing and appreciating social
workers or working alongside social workers or
having social workers within their organization.
You know, something else that I find striking
is the growth and the influence that our program
has now evolved to. What started as a pilot program
with one law enforcement agency over 10 years
ago has now evolved and expanded throughout California,
Nevada, and Washington. And now our students
are now working. alongside various professionals,
including attorneys, judges, educators, firefighters,
and other mental health providers. You know,
this expansion just reaffirms to us the importance
of embedding social work across the legal system
and how it truly benefits the community because
we are looking at the community holistically.
as you were saying about the growth of this program,
makes me think about another thing that I wanted
to touch on before we wrap up, which is the reputation
and really the visibility that the two of you
have had as a result of this within Los Angeles.
And I know that you were recently both appointed
to this advisory board for the LA Metro transition
team for the development of a transit community
public safety department. Can you tell me a little
bit about what this initiative is and how it's
related to what you did? I mean, maybe Rosemary,
I'll turn to you first just for a second and
sort of say like, what is this opportunity? And
maybe, you know, Rick, you can talk a little
bit about how it came out, how it spurred from
the or what its connection. to our program has
been. Sure. It's so exciting to be able to speak
to it because here it is, LA Metro. They used
to have a police department public safety program
within and however, they no longer did. And so
now here they are. working on identifying what
are the best practices, looking at the community
as a whole, looking at it holistically as well,
and bringing in an array of experts from the
community that will be able to have contributions
in how that public safety department is going
to look. And basically being able to utilize
all of our experiences. to be able to ultimately
have officers and a public safety department
that's going to be the most responsive, trauma
-informed department that I think we've ever
seen, and having people like ourselves be able
to provide feedback, be able to inform how, again,
policies are developed, and knowing that ultimately,
at the end of the day, each rider that gets on
these trains is going to have an opportunity
should the need arise to interact with officers,
individuals that are trained and that are ready
to support in a time of crisis and need. That's
that's great. And I guess, Rick, to turn to you
around this topic, was this opportunity because
of the work that you all have been doing? I mean,
I would assume it would be. But I mean, was there
what was the connection? How did you how did
you all end up in this in this advisory capacity?
Because we've been doing this for over 10 years.
And we continuously receive opportunities or
and or universities, law enforcement. or other
agencies across the nation reach out to us for
consult and insight. Like you've been doing this
for some time. What are the ingredients? What
is it that works? One, how do you start a program
like yours? What are the nuts and bolts of building
out something like this? So as a result of that,
the LA Metro reached out to us because they are
looking to stand up their own public safety department.
We have served on the advisory group to support
in not only building out the agency from the
ground up, but also to provide expertise and
insight around mental health services and policy
and program development as it relates to supporting
people that might have behavioral health issues
and or are unhoused, right? Yeah, yeah. So yeah,
we have consulted with organizations as far east
as Baltimore to include overseas in York, England.
We have noticed that over time, this work specifically
has grown internationally. It must be so satisfying.
for the two of you to not only have successfully
created a program like this, but to be receiving
these requests for consultation and to be able
to be really recognized for what a challenging
area this work is and how important it is. I
really wish, actually, I wish that we had a lot
more time because I'm sure that there's some
amazing more stories about the challenges about
how this was all built out. I had a whole nother
set of questions that just popped into my mind
as Rick, you were telling me about this, about,
wow, let's talk about how do you create something
like this? Because I'm sure there are probably
going to be people out there that want to know,
but this will have to be saved for our next podcast
because we're running short on time. But I really,
really want to thank the two of you. to you for
doing amazing work, really groundbreaking work.
transformative work for both social work students
as well as for law enforcement. And I guess I
want to just give you one last opportunity before
I close things out to say, is there anything
else that you would like our listeners to know
about the work that you're doing or the programs
that you're involved in as we close out for the
day? Well, thank you so much, Eric, again, for
having us here. It's been an honor to be able
to share basically some of our work here. All
I can say is that every day we're looking at
ways of how to remove barriers for our communities
to be able to access resources and be able to
interact with individuals such as law enforcement
and across the legal system in ways that will
be respectful, that they'll be treated with the
dignity and respect that they deserve. And anything
that we can do from our end to ensure that happens,
we are doing it and we're looking at it every
day. That's beautiful. Rick, last thoughts from
you? No, thank you. And for me, it's is that
no single profession can solve today's complex
challenges. And it takes a multidisciplinary
interprofessional collaboration. to support not
only the legal system, but the communities that
they serve as well. And so social work brings
trauma -informed practice, behavioral health
knowledge, and commitment to social justice.
So it's bringing both those strengths together
that we get a holistic response and that truly
serve individuals, families, and uh and communities
inspiring inspiring inspiring just amazing work
that the the two of you have done i want to thank
you both rosemary and rick for joining us on
such a great discussion if you the listener wants
to learn more about the school of social work
and the social work and public safety program
at usc you can visit our school's website which
is dworakpeck .usc .edu social work public safety
And if you have questions for the guests on our
show or you want to support the transformative
research and programs like this one, you can
email us at ListenUpPeople at USC .edu. And one
more time, thank you both so much, not only for
being here with me, but for doing the work that
you do. Thank you, Eric. Thank you.