WEBVTT 00:00:13.710 --> 00:00:16.309 Hello, and welcome to Listen Up People, a podcast 00:00:16.309 --> 00:00:18.910 of the USC Suzanne Dworak-Peck School of Social 00:00:18.910 --> 00:00:21.429 Work. I'm Dr. Eric Rice, Professor and Associate 00:00:21.429 --> 00:00:24.289 Dean for Research. Today, we're going to discuss 00:00:24.289 --> 00:00:26.710 the needs of military personnel, veterans, and 00:00:26.710 --> 00:00:29.149 their families. Social work and the military 00:00:29.149 --> 00:00:31.829 have a long history. In fact, the Veterans Administration 00:00:31.829 --> 00:00:34.350 is the single largest employer of social works 00:00:34.350 --> 00:00:37.689 in the US, with over 18 ,000 social workers serving 00:00:37.689 --> 00:00:40.119 the needs of veterans and their families. My 00:00:40.119 --> 00:00:42.759 guests today are nationally and internationally 00:00:42.759 --> 00:00:44.920 recognized experts in the needs of active duty 00:00:44.920 --> 00:00:47.859 military veterans and their families. They lead 00:00:47.859 --> 00:00:50.119 the military and veterans programs at the USC 00:00:50.119 --> 00:00:52.280 School of Social Work. So it's my pleasure to 00:00:52.280 --> 00:00:55.079 introduce Dr. Carl Castro. He's a professor, 00:00:55.359 --> 00:00:58.320 the director of military and veterans programs, 00:00:58.420 --> 00:01:00.759 the director of the Center for Innovation and 00:01:00.759 --> 00:01:03.460 Research on Veterans and Military Families, and 00:01:03.460 --> 00:01:07.500 the director of the Rand USC Epstein Family Foundation 00:01:07.500 --> 00:01:10.189 Center for Veterans Policy Research. And his 00:01:10.189 --> 00:01:12.569 colleague, Dr. Sara Kintzle, who's a research 00:01:12.569 --> 00:01:15.489 professor whose work focuses on the experiences 00:01:15.489 --> 00:01:17.549 of individuals who've served in the military 00:01:17.549 --> 00:01:19.609 and the transition from active duty to civilian 00:01:19.609 --> 00:01:21.590 life and who's currently the principal investigator 00:01:21.590 --> 00:01:24.450 on several large grants here at the university. 00:01:24.730 --> 00:01:26.370 It's great to have you both here. Thank you for 00:01:26.370 --> 00:01:28.530 having us. Yeah, welcome. I want to start off 00:01:28.530 --> 00:01:31.290 with asking a more personal question that I've 00:01:31.290 --> 00:01:35.109 been asking guests on the podcast, which is... 00:01:34.920 --> 00:01:38.180 why folks got interested in the areas that they 00:01:38.180 --> 00:01:41.159 spend their careers studying and researching. 00:01:41.519 --> 00:01:44.180 So maybe I'll start with you, Sarah. Is there 00:01:44.180 --> 00:01:48.719 a reason or an incident or a passion that drove 00:01:48.719 --> 00:01:50.959 you into working with veterans, the military 00:01:50.959 --> 00:01:52.959 personnel, and their families? For me, it was 00:01:52.959 --> 00:01:55.599 really the time in which I got my education. 00:01:56.760 --> 00:01:59.540 have a personal connection to the military other 00:01:59.540 --> 00:02:02.260 than my great -grandfather who died during World 00:02:02.260 --> 00:02:04.640 War II. I did grow up hearing he actually died. 00:02:04.840 --> 00:02:07.120 My grandmother, she never got to meet him. Her 00:02:07.120 --> 00:02:09.759 mother got pregnant with her. He left for World 00:02:09.759 --> 00:02:13.039 War II and he died during that conflict. And 00:02:13.039 --> 00:02:15.219 so I did grow up hearing stories from her and 00:02:15.219 --> 00:02:18.610 how that impacted her. But I was a freshman in 00:02:18.610 --> 00:02:22.569 college, actually, when the conflict in Iraq 00:02:22.569 --> 00:02:24.830 started. And at the same time, one of my best 00:02:24.830 --> 00:02:28.009 friends went into the military. I was very interested 00:02:28.009 --> 00:02:30.370 in trauma. I was getting a bachelor's of social 00:02:30.370 --> 00:02:33.669 work. And my education and my interest unfolded 00:02:33.669 --> 00:02:37.039 at a time in history where We had a lot of questions 00:02:37.039 --> 00:02:39.039 about how to help people who were in the military, 00:02:39.180 --> 00:02:41.099 who were leaving the military. And we didn't 00:02:41.099 --> 00:02:43.439 have a lot of answers. And where we were just 00:02:43.439 --> 00:02:46.800 really inundated with kind of the impacts of 00:02:46.800 --> 00:02:50.180 those conflicts. And so I got my bachelor's degree, 00:02:50.360 --> 00:02:52.699 my master's degree at just this really interesting 00:02:52.699 --> 00:02:54.740 and important time. And that's really where my 00:02:54.740 --> 00:02:57.819 interest came from. Wow. Wow, that's great. So 00:02:57.819 --> 00:03:02.000 Dr. Castro, Carl, you are also a retired colonel, 00:03:02.000 --> 00:03:05.129 if I'm not mistaken. How did you get interested 00:03:05.129 --> 00:03:08.550 in this work? Well, you know, in many ways, my 00:03:08.550 --> 00:03:11.189 work as a professor at the University of Southern 00:03:11.189 --> 00:03:14.370 California is a continuation of the work that 00:03:14.370 --> 00:03:16.650 I did while I was on active duty, because while 00:03:16.650 --> 00:03:20.050 I was on active duty, I had the best job in the 00:03:20.050 --> 00:03:22.270 world until I came to the University of Southern 00:03:22.270 --> 00:03:24.710 California. This is the best job in the world. 00:03:24.849 --> 00:03:29.069 But I was studying. soldiers and Marines and 00:03:29.069 --> 00:03:32.169 airmen while they were on active duty, getting 00:03:32.169 --> 00:03:35.909 ready to deploy to combat, coming home from combat, 00:03:36.509 --> 00:03:39.689 deploying to Kosovo and Saudi Arabia, coming 00:03:39.689 --> 00:03:43.349 home from. And so it was sort of a natural extension 00:03:43.349 --> 00:03:45.569 that I would continue to study them as they leave 00:03:45.569 --> 00:03:48.430 the military and return to their civilian community. 00:03:48.490 --> 00:03:51.069 So in many ways, it's just a continuation of 00:03:51.069 --> 00:03:54.210 what I was already doing. on active duty. So 00:03:54.210 --> 00:03:56.969 now, since I had a wonderful transition, you 00:03:56.969 --> 00:03:58.990 know, second best job in the world, moving to 00:03:58.990 --> 00:04:02.050 the best job in the world. I think your response 00:04:02.050 --> 00:04:03.810 reminds me of one of the very first things that 00:04:03.810 --> 00:04:04.990 I want to talk to you about. You were talking 00:04:04.990 --> 00:04:07.310 about people transitioning as they went overseas, 00:04:07.330 --> 00:04:09.990 came back as people are leaving the military. 00:04:10.469 --> 00:04:12.050 You know, you and I have had a few conversations 00:04:12.050 --> 00:04:15.409 over the years about, I think, what I might think 00:04:15.409 --> 00:04:17.009 of as some of the misconceptions that people 00:04:17.009 --> 00:04:21.910 have about military personnel and veterans. And 00:04:21.910 --> 00:04:25.680 there's a I thought about PTSD, suicidality, 00:04:25.920 --> 00:04:27.459 homelessness, these are sort of the core issues. 00:04:27.860 --> 00:04:29.360 But when you and I talk, you keep coming back 00:04:29.360 --> 00:04:31.360 to this idea of transitions, right? Do you want 00:04:31.360 --> 00:04:34.899 to maybe tell our listeners more about your insights 00:04:34.899 --> 00:04:36.860 about the importance of transitions for these 00:04:36.860 --> 00:04:40.779 folks? Well, it all starts, I'll try to be very 00:04:40.779 --> 00:04:43.759 brief, because one, I don't want to bore the 00:04:43.759 --> 00:04:47.579 listeners. But I take this very, very strong 00:04:47.579 --> 00:04:52.139 view that the military is its own culture. And 00:04:52.139 --> 00:04:54.480 there's a military culture, and then there's 00:04:54.480 --> 00:04:57.800 the civilian culture. And when service members 00:04:57.800 --> 00:05:00.939 leave the military, they're moving from one culture 00:05:00.939 --> 00:05:05.019 to another culture. And they often don't appreciate 00:05:05.019 --> 00:05:09.000 that. But all the challenges that you would have, 00:05:09.160 --> 00:05:11.699 that Sarah would have, that anyone would have, 00:05:12.180 --> 00:05:14.860 if, say, we picked up and moved to India, we 00:05:14.860 --> 00:05:16.439 would have to figure out where we're going to 00:05:16.439 --> 00:05:19.009 live, where we're going to work. If we have kids, 00:05:19.029 --> 00:05:21.269 where are they going to school? Is my wife going 00:05:21.269 --> 00:05:23.649 to work or my husband going to work? Where am 00:05:23.649 --> 00:05:25.910 I going to shop for food? All of these things, 00:05:25.949 --> 00:05:28.250 you'd have to figure out. People living in the 00:05:28.250 --> 00:05:30.209 military have to figure all of this out too, 00:05:30.430 --> 00:05:32.970 to include where are they going to get their 00:05:32.970 --> 00:05:34.850 healthcare? Where are they going to get their 00:05:34.850 --> 00:05:36.910 dental care? Where are they going to get a haircut? 00:05:37.269 --> 00:05:39.490 All of these things that you take for granted 00:05:39.490 --> 00:05:42.730 in one culture, you now have to figure out on 00:05:42.730 --> 00:05:46.110 your own when you leave the military and return 00:05:46.110 --> 00:05:48.540 to your communities. Of course, all of those 00:05:48.540 --> 00:05:51.420 issues you mentioned, homelessness, suicide, 00:05:51.819 --> 00:05:54.620 mental health disorders, these are huge issues. 00:05:54.639 --> 00:05:57.680 So I don't anyway want to minimize those. Those 00:05:57.680 --> 00:06:01.819 issues get compounded in this transitioning process. 00:06:02.100 --> 00:06:05.040 So we're trying, if you will, move upstream, 00:06:05.540 --> 00:06:08.560 move upstream and really prepare our service 00:06:08.560 --> 00:06:11.500 members for, I'm not going to call it a culture 00:06:11.500 --> 00:06:14.889 shock, but some veterans will even describe I 00:06:14.889 --> 00:06:18.310 feel like a foreigner in my own country as an 00:06:18.310 --> 00:06:21.990 example of this cultural shift that they're going 00:06:21.990 --> 00:06:24.889 through. And of course, most veterans ultimately 00:06:24.889 --> 00:06:28.889 transition fine and go on and major contributions 00:06:28.889 --> 00:06:31.029 to the community, et cetera. So I don't anyway 00:06:31.029 --> 00:06:32.449 want to say, oh, and they can't make it because 00:06:32.449 --> 00:06:34.589 they do make these wonderful contributions as 00:06:34.589 --> 00:06:37.069 well. Yeah. So what are some of you mentioned 00:06:37.069 --> 00:06:40.230 as people transition from the military into civilian 00:06:40.230 --> 00:06:42.629 culture, but there are other transitions as well. 00:06:42.709 --> 00:06:44.189 Yeah. I mean, what are some of the other points 00:06:44.189 --> 00:06:47.389 that are sort of particularly stressful for people? 00:06:47.449 --> 00:06:51.529 Well, we know from like, if you look at the life 00:06:51.529 --> 00:06:54.730 cycle of transitions for service members and 00:06:54.730 --> 00:06:57.269 veterans. There are three time points that I 00:06:57.269 --> 00:07:00.410 like to highlight. When people join the military, 00:07:01.009 --> 00:07:06.629 huge, huge point of issues. It's where 25 % of 00:07:06.629 --> 00:07:09.029 all suicides in the army occur within the first 00:07:09.029 --> 00:07:12.170 two years of someone joining the army. 85 % of 00:07:12.170 --> 00:07:14.850 all sexual assaults of women occur in the first 00:07:14.850 --> 00:07:17.449 two years of joining the army, ex -joining the 00:07:17.449 --> 00:07:20.329 military. Wow. When service members come back 00:07:20.329 --> 00:07:23.470 from deployment, again, you see issues. when 00:07:23.470 --> 00:07:26.769 they leave the military, the first two years, 00:07:27.089 --> 00:07:29.029 and the data now looks like it even can go out 00:07:29.029 --> 00:07:31.750 to five years, that's when veterans are the most 00:07:31.750 --> 00:07:35.189 susceptible of dying by suicide. So all of these 00:07:35.189 --> 00:07:38.550 sort of major transition points is where people 00:07:38.550 --> 00:07:40.910 struggle, and I think it's for a lot of the reasons 00:07:40.910 --> 00:07:44.129 that I just mentioned earlier. So understanding 00:07:44.129 --> 00:07:47.350 the challenges around these transitions then 00:07:47.350 --> 00:07:52.569 becomes central to intervening early or preventing 00:07:52.569 --> 00:07:54.750 some of these issues from happening? No, that's 00:07:54.750 --> 00:07:56.910 really that's really insightful and important 00:07:56.910 --> 00:07:58.649 for us to think about. You know, Sarah, when 00:07:58.649 --> 00:08:01.370 you were talking about your interest in getting 00:08:01.370 --> 00:08:04.329 involved, you had mentioned a sense that there 00:08:04.329 --> 00:08:07.529 was a lack of information available about what 00:08:07.529 --> 00:08:10.149 was happening. And I know that you in the work 00:08:10.149 --> 00:08:13.290 that you've done at USC have been the lead for 00:08:13.290 --> 00:08:15.730 the study that was called the State of the American 00:08:15.730 --> 00:08:18.689 Veteran. And this was something where you were 00:08:18.689 --> 00:08:21.509 really trying to understand you know what's happening 00:08:21.509 --> 00:08:24.629 and can you maybe tell us a little bit about 00:08:24.629 --> 00:08:27.230 what that study was and what it was that you 00:08:27.230 --> 00:08:29.350 were trying to accomplish with that? Sure, so 00:08:29.350 --> 00:08:31.629 we've done on our team a series of community 00:08:31.629 --> 00:08:33.610 -based studies that look at veterans in different 00:08:33.610 --> 00:08:36.330 communities and prior to this one we had done 00:08:36.330 --> 00:08:39.090 one in LA, Orange County, Chicago, San Francisco 00:08:39.090 --> 00:08:41.970 and we find that they're really powerful because 00:08:41.970 --> 00:08:45.009 we take a community, we do a needs assessment 00:08:45.009 --> 00:08:48.200 of the veterans living there and it's It's really 00:08:48.200 --> 00:08:50.620 hard to ignore when I'm looking at your community 00:08:50.620 --> 00:08:52.720 and saying these are your neighbors. These are 00:08:52.720 --> 00:08:54.360 the people you work with who are experiencing 00:08:54.360 --> 00:08:56.980 these challenges. As Carl likes to talk about, 00:08:57.039 --> 00:08:59.460 a lot of times people can ignore national data. 00:08:59.539 --> 00:09:01.200 They'll say, well, that's not happening here. 00:09:01.559 --> 00:09:03.879 But it also allows us to give communities tools 00:09:03.879 --> 00:09:05.860 that are really specific to what veterans are 00:09:05.860 --> 00:09:08.299 experiencing there. And this most recent study, 00:09:08.299 --> 00:09:11.700 we did the first ever study of Southern California 00:09:11.700 --> 00:09:15.259 as a whole. So veterans in Los Angeles, Orange 00:09:15.259 --> 00:09:17.440 County, and San Diego. And we took every we had 00:09:17.440 --> 00:09:19.679 learned from the previous studies and really 00:09:19.679 --> 00:09:21.960 tried to continue to advance the thinking and 00:09:21.960 --> 00:09:23.820 the knowledge. And in one area that we did that 00:09:23.820 --> 00:09:25.879 really was thinking about military transition. 00:09:26.299 --> 00:09:28.820 But these are large studies that focus on a lot 00:09:28.820 --> 00:09:31.019 of different aspects of the challenges veterans 00:09:31.019 --> 00:09:33.360 may experience. Well, you mentioned this transition 00:09:33.360 --> 00:09:35.679 idea, right? So this is something that Carl's 00:09:35.679 --> 00:09:37.870 been kind of educating us about conceptually. 00:09:38.009 --> 00:09:39.309 I mean, what were some of the things that you 00:09:39.309 --> 00:09:41.970 found in this study about transitions? Well, 00:09:41.970 --> 00:09:44.269 for the first time, we wanted to take a more 00:09:44.269 --> 00:09:46.909 in -depth look at transition. And Carl and I 00:09:46.909 --> 00:09:48.990 both came to USC around the same time, and he 00:09:48.990 --> 00:09:51.149 had been talking about transition previously. 00:09:51.149 --> 00:09:53.769 But it was a time where we really focused a lot 00:09:53.769 --> 00:09:56.230 of our work on that. You'll find that in the 00:09:56.230 --> 00:09:59.330 previous studies. But we really talked about 00:09:59.330 --> 00:10:01.450 kind of the things Carl brought up at first, 00:10:01.490 --> 00:10:04.409 finding a job, housing, access to health care, 00:10:04.950 --> 00:10:07.779 kind of those basic needs, which are where you 00:10:07.779 --> 00:10:10.299 should start. That's where we started. And a 00:10:10.299 --> 00:10:12.279 lot of the work that's being done today has been 00:10:12.279 --> 00:10:15.299 built on the conceptual model and the research 00:10:15.299 --> 00:10:18.820 that this team has done. And that work is important. 00:10:20.559 --> 00:10:22.460 You're going to struggle if your basic needs 00:10:22.460 --> 00:10:24.639 aren't met. But at the same time, we also know 00:10:24.639 --> 00:10:27.299 that there's more to life than basic needs, especially 00:10:27.299 --> 00:10:31.000 a healthy and happy life. And so we started to 00:10:31.000 --> 00:10:33.350 take a look more at constructs that we thought 00:10:33.350 --> 00:10:35.950 were also where we might be missing the mark 00:10:35.950 --> 00:10:38.970 in transition, things like purpose, and meaning, 00:10:39.750 --> 00:10:42.789 and identity, and how you overcome some of the 00:10:42.789 --> 00:10:44.950 emotional challenges, like feeling like I have 00:10:44.950 --> 00:10:47.669 to start over, feeling angry about that, the 00:10:47.669 --> 00:10:50.450 rejections that happen, and really answering 00:10:50.450 --> 00:10:54.070 that question, who am I now? And what do I do? 00:10:54.129 --> 00:10:56.269 Well, I figure it out. Yeah. Carl, did you want 00:10:56.269 --> 00:10:58.629 to add to that? You got something on the tip 00:10:58.629 --> 00:11:01.639 of your tongue. You hear a lot of veterans. when 00:11:01.639 --> 00:11:04.899 they're in the early transition phase will say 00:11:04.899 --> 00:11:07.299 things like feel like I wasted four or five years 00:11:07.299 --> 00:11:10.460 of my life serving in the military because they 00:11:10.460 --> 00:11:13.980 come back and they like have to start over right 00:11:13.980 --> 00:11:16.440 where they see their high school classmates are 00:11:16.440 --> 00:11:20.820 now managers and college graduates and they're 00:11:20.820 --> 00:11:24.440 like starting over in it, although in America, 00:11:24.480 --> 00:11:27.720 we love veterans, we love our military, I've 00:11:27.720 --> 00:11:30.679 traveled all over the world, I guarantee you 00:11:30.679 --> 00:11:34.340 there is no nation in the world that supports 00:11:34.340 --> 00:11:37.279 their military and veterans like America does. 00:11:37.759 --> 00:11:41.080 And I say this, but then but veterans still feel 00:11:41.080 --> 00:11:44.799 underappreciated, their skills being minimized 00:11:44.799 --> 00:11:47.899 and having to reprove themselves all over again. 00:11:48.299 --> 00:11:50.399 So these are the, you know, Sarah would call 00:11:50.399 --> 00:11:53.600 these sort of the emotional elements of the transition. 00:11:53.759 --> 00:11:56.679 And I think, for a large part, that has been 00:11:56.679 --> 00:11:59.279 ignored. And actually, Sarah's the one that brought 00:11:59.279 --> 00:12:05.100 that, this idea and this reality to attention, 00:12:05.179 --> 00:12:07.019 where now other people are talking about the 00:12:07.019 --> 00:12:10.179 emotional aspects of leaving the military and 00:12:10.179 --> 00:12:13.279 rejoining, you know, American society. No, it's 00:12:13.279 --> 00:12:14.779 really beautiful. I mean, you're talking not 00:12:14.779 --> 00:12:17.419 just about our people, I don't know, succeeding 00:12:17.419 --> 00:12:20.059 in the sort of the obvious ways, but you're talking 00:12:20.059 --> 00:12:23.080 about how do you understand if somebody is thriving, 00:12:23.080 --> 00:12:26.500 right? And I think that that's a really powerful 00:12:26.500 --> 00:12:31.620 part of a social work lens on research is trying 00:12:31.620 --> 00:12:36.019 to think about people as holistic and not just 00:12:36.019 --> 00:12:38.919 as how many of these folks got a job, for example, 00:12:39.120 --> 00:12:42.970 right? And with this in mind, Sarah, have you 00:12:42.970 --> 00:12:46.809 had much traction sharing these findings? Who 00:12:46.809 --> 00:12:49.490 has been? I know you mentioned that you had said 00:12:49.490 --> 00:12:53.629 something about you have these specific studies 00:12:53.629 --> 00:12:56.629 that are grounded in specific communities and 00:12:56.629 --> 00:12:58.950 that you are able to share with those communities 00:12:58.950 --> 00:13:02.350 that this is their neighbors. But what are the 00:13:02.350 --> 00:13:04.029 constituent groups that you share these findings 00:13:04.029 --> 00:13:06.509 with? Well, one of the things that's wonderful 00:13:06.509 --> 00:13:10.539 about the work we get to do is that we have stakeholders, 00:13:11.340 --> 00:13:13.559 veteran service organizations who are just so 00:13:13.559 --> 00:13:16.259 interested in getting access to research, understanding 00:13:16.259 --> 00:13:19.940 it, and utilizing it. So we have no problem finding 00:13:19.940 --> 00:13:21.840 people who are interested in listening to these 00:13:21.840 --> 00:13:25.860 findings. And we do that at many levels. At the 00:13:25.860 --> 00:13:28.580 top level, Carl and I have gone to DC. We meet 00:13:28.580 --> 00:13:30.460 with congressional leaders. This is a topic they 00:13:30.460 --> 00:13:32.820 are very interested in. They're very interested 00:13:32.820 --> 00:13:36.059 in using research to kind of advance what we 00:13:36.059 --> 00:13:39.220 are doing in this area. after the study was released, 00:13:39.279 --> 00:13:42.679 I gave over 150 presentations all over the country 00:13:42.679 --> 00:13:46.460 on Zoom, just to interested parties who just 00:13:46.460 --> 00:13:49.200 outlining the findings and how these organizations 00:13:49.200 --> 00:13:51.899 can use them and how they can think about some 00:13:51.899 --> 00:13:55.200 of these problems in different ways. And they 00:13:55.200 --> 00:13:58.980 do that. They've really listened to what the 00:13:58.980 --> 00:14:01.759 research finds and they wanna know not only does 00:14:01.759 --> 00:14:04.490 it help them. serve veterans better, but I'm 00:14:04.490 --> 00:14:06.250 also giving them information that they can use 00:14:06.250 --> 00:14:08.049 to show the efficacy of what they're doing and 00:14:08.049 --> 00:14:09.809 the need for what they're doing. So it helps 00:14:09.809 --> 00:14:12.360 their funding as well. So they can say, look, 00:14:12.480 --> 00:14:14.340 USC did this research and it shows that there's 00:14:14.340 --> 00:14:17.059 a big need here for what we're doing. And so 00:14:17.059 --> 00:14:19.240 just so beneficial. And that's something Carl 00:14:19.240 --> 00:14:21.620 and I really value is that we want to do research 00:14:21.620 --> 00:14:24.740 that gets to the people who are making policies, 00:14:24.820 --> 00:14:27.200 who are seeing veterans every day, who are making 00:14:27.200 --> 00:14:29.159 decisions that affect veterans and their families. 00:14:29.179 --> 00:14:31.659 And we do a lot of work to make sure that happens. 00:14:31.940 --> 00:14:35.159 Yeah. And I know, Carl, that you've gone and 00:14:35.159 --> 00:14:37.279 done really outreach on Capitol Hill, right? 00:14:37.299 --> 00:14:39.100 I think that so, I mean, and I know that you 00:14:39.100 --> 00:14:42.440 also have this Rand Epstein Family Foundation 00:14:42.440 --> 00:14:44.860 Center for Veterans Policy Research. What are 00:14:44.860 --> 00:14:48.279 some of the initiatives that you guys are spearheading? 00:14:48.279 --> 00:14:50.059 What kind of policies are you trying to impact? 00:14:50.360 --> 00:14:54.059 Well, let me say this because you've mentioned 00:14:54.059 --> 00:14:57.740 Dan Epstein, whose support has been central to 00:14:57.740 --> 00:15:01.340 what we do. All of these needs assessments, if 00:15:01.340 --> 00:15:04.580 you want to call them that, but it's really an 00:15:04.580 --> 00:15:07.639 understatement because we use a very rigorous, 00:15:08.039 --> 00:15:10.220 scientifically -driven driven, theoretically 00:15:10.220 --> 00:15:15.039 driven survey in our research. So much of our 00:15:15.039 --> 00:15:17.080 needs assessment community -based studies, you 00:15:17.080 --> 00:15:19.019 know, we would publish in peer review journals, 00:15:19.039 --> 00:15:23.519 et cetera. But we couldn't do this work. without 00:15:23.519 --> 00:15:27.360 the support of foundations and individual donors 00:15:27.360 --> 00:15:30.279 like Dan Epstein, because it's not a topic that 00:15:30.279 --> 00:15:33.360 NIH or the Department of Defense or even the 00:15:33.360 --> 00:15:35.940 Department of Veterans Affairs is really interested 00:15:35.940 --> 00:15:39.720 in funding based on sort of how they fund work, 00:15:39.740 --> 00:15:42.820 because they want to like foundational research, 00:15:43.139 --> 00:15:45.779 you know, theoretically driven research, things 00:15:45.779 --> 00:15:47.980 that are going to lead to direct interventions, 00:15:48.299 --> 00:15:52.590 and that's not this kind of work. So it's In 00:15:52.590 --> 00:15:56.250 some ways, it's this partnership of where we 00:15:56.250 --> 00:16:00.269 use federal funding and nonprofit funding, funding 00:16:00.269 --> 00:16:04.210 from folks like Dan Epstein to really drive and 00:16:04.210 --> 00:16:06.809 leverage all of our underfunding to make a bigger 00:16:06.809 --> 00:16:10.830 impact on what we do in the community. So it's, 00:16:11.009 --> 00:16:13.710 I don't even know, you know, how to say it, you 00:16:13.710 --> 00:16:16.809 know, succinctly other than. You know, you have 00:16:16.809 --> 00:16:20.350 to figure out what is it that's needed and who 00:16:20.350 --> 00:16:23.740 is the likely funder of that. those studies. 00:16:24.240 --> 00:16:27.039 So we would never try to fund a study from a 00:16:27.039 --> 00:16:31.279 donor that we should be going to DOD or NIH to 00:16:31.279 --> 00:16:33.980 fund, right? We would go to the appropriate funding 00:16:33.980 --> 00:16:36.299 agencies, but you know, from just their calls, 00:16:36.299 --> 00:16:38.159 they're not going to fund the needs assessment 00:16:38.159 --> 00:16:40.700 of a community because they want to do like a 00:16:40.700 --> 00:16:42.899 national, they would like, they would never fund 00:16:42.899 --> 00:16:46.159 a Southern California veteran study as an example. 00:16:46.159 --> 00:16:48.860 They would want to fund a national study of veterans, 00:16:48.899 --> 00:16:51.639 but they wouldn't be able to make the impact 00:16:51.639 --> 00:16:54.139 then. at the community level that we wanna make, 00:16:54.500 --> 00:16:57.460 right? So it's a different level of where we're 00:16:57.460 --> 00:17:00.220 trying to drive change, but showing as an example 00:17:00.220 --> 00:17:02.960 of how you can drive change, if others did these 00:17:02.960 --> 00:17:04.839 needs assessments, and others, by the way, have 00:17:04.839 --> 00:17:06.619 picked up and started doing needs assessments 00:17:06.619 --> 00:17:08.859 of their communities as well. So I don't know 00:17:08.859 --> 00:17:11.140 if you wanna jump in and add to that or not. 00:17:11.319 --> 00:17:16.579 Okay, I think I wanted to ask a slightly, maybe 00:17:16.579 --> 00:17:18.940 it's a little bit of a left turn here, but Carl, 00:17:18.960 --> 00:17:22.500 I know you've been talking about now this impact 00:17:22.500 --> 00:17:24.740 in the community, which is something that social 00:17:24.740 --> 00:17:28.359 work values for sure. I think it's curious. You 00:17:28.359 --> 00:17:31.140 had this over a 30 -year career in the Army. 00:17:31.319 --> 00:17:34.099 You retired as a colonel. How did you make the 00:17:34.099 --> 00:17:37.539 transition from that career into a career in 00:17:37.539 --> 00:17:41.299 social work? Well, it's not as difficult as one 00:17:41.299 --> 00:17:46.150 would think. Okay. As I like to remind people, 00:17:46.410 --> 00:17:50.509 there are three great institutions that were 00:17:50.509 --> 00:17:54.150 basically invented in the Middle Ages. The church, 00:17:54.730 --> 00:17:57.869 the military, and academia. So I basically moved 00:17:57.869 --> 00:18:01.490 from one middle age institution, the military, 00:18:01.789 --> 00:18:03.950 to one in academia. People think they're all, 00:18:03.950 --> 00:18:06.769 these are very different. But I guarantee you, 00:18:06.829 --> 00:18:08.990 having been in both, they're very, very similar. 00:18:09.170 --> 00:18:12.680 All right? it you know we have gowns you know 00:18:12.680 --> 00:18:15.819 the church has gowns the military has their uniforms 00:18:15.819 --> 00:18:18.500 we have you know the universe like so but we're 00:18:18.500 --> 00:18:21.160 very informal but we all know you what are you 00:18:21.160 --> 00:18:23.259 a full professor are you just starting out are 00:18:23.259 --> 00:18:25.819 you a researcher are you just teaching right 00:18:25.819 --> 00:18:28.279 so we have this hierarchy that we really pay 00:18:28.279 --> 00:18:30.440 attention to you don't wear it on your collar 00:18:30.440 --> 00:18:33.819 let you do in the military folks are very conscious 00:18:33.819 --> 00:18:38.099 of rank, tenure, or professor. And so it has 00:18:38.099 --> 00:18:41.200 these parallels. It's also occupations that you 00:18:41.200 --> 00:18:44.460 have for life, tenure, the military, you retire, 00:18:44.740 --> 00:18:47.460 priesthood's a lifetime commitment. So there's 00:18:47.460 --> 00:18:49.900 a lot of similarities between these. And I think 00:18:49.900 --> 00:18:52.619 it made my transition a much easier when I figured 00:18:52.619 --> 00:18:56.549 that out. It's very similar to what I did for 00:18:56.549 --> 00:18:59.470 33 years. And it's also, believe it or not, and 00:18:59.470 --> 00:19:03.269 I tell people this, very, very top -down it can 00:19:03.269 --> 00:19:06.470 be, you know, where few people making all the 00:19:06.470 --> 00:19:08.390 decisions that other people do. We like to think 00:19:08.390 --> 00:19:12.069 in academia, it's more collegial and participatory. 00:19:12.190 --> 00:19:15.130 I will tell you, I had more input into decisions 00:19:15.130 --> 00:19:17.549 when I was in the military than I do as a full 00:19:17.549 --> 00:19:19.869 professor at the University of Southern California. 00:19:20.390 --> 00:19:26.700 So it's - I think you just broke my brain. I'm 00:19:26.700 --> 00:19:28.920 not quite sure how I could process that information, 00:19:29.099 --> 00:19:31.980 Carl, although I do love the fact that you are 00:19:31.980 --> 00:19:35.480 making the connection between these medieval 00:19:35.480 --> 00:19:39.200 institutions and certainly there is a... a historical 00:19:39.200 --> 00:19:43.359 reality there. And the uniforms and the rank 00:19:43.359 --> 00:19:47.039 certainly, yeah, you speak some truth. You speak 00:19:47.039 --> 00:19:48.960 some truth. Also, though, you're somebody who's 00:19:48.960 --> 00:19:50.980 been really interested in transitions and transitioning 00:19:50.980 --> 00:19:53.819 from one culture to another. So I'm not surprised 00:19:53.819 --> 00:19:56.119 in some ways that you've thought about how is 00:19:56.119 --> 00:19:59.440 this one culture similar to or different from 00:19:59.440 --> 00:20:02.900 this other culture. One thing that I wanted to 00:20:02.900 --> 00:20:05.400 also ask you, though, is the two of you are leading 00:20:05.400 --> 00:20:09.960 these these big institutes at USC that are working 00:20:09.960 --> 00:20:12.539 with veterans and military families. What are 00:20:12.539 --> 00:20:16.579 some of the goals that you have for the work 00:20:16.579 --> 00:20:18.799 that you're doing moving forward to try to support 00:20:18.799 --> 00:20:21.140 this community? Maybe I'll turn to Carl, you 00:20:21.140 --> 00:20:24.000 first, and then go to Sarah. Well, one of the 00:20:24.000 --> 00:20:27.019 things that, and Sarah said this very, very nicely, 00:20:28.140 --> 00:20:32.720 the big things people are focused on, homelessness, 00:20:33.759 --> 00:20:37.440 suicide, mental health issues, physical health 00:20:37.440 --> 00:20:41.000 issues. But there are other issues that complete 00:20:41.000 --> 00:20:44.700 the person, right? That's the holistic approach 00:20:44.700 --> 00:20:49.059 that I like us to really focus on, the whole 00:20:49.059 --> 00:20:53.519 person. And I really mean it when I say bio, 00:20:53.619 --> 00:20:57.269 psycho, social, spiritual. and financial health. 00:20:57.390 --> 00:20:59.369 We always forget that financial health, even 00:20:59.369 --> 00:21:02.609 in social work. But I always remind folks, this 00:21:02.609 --> 00:21:05.150 is America. And in America, money is important. 00:21:06.029 --> 00:21:08.549 And you know, so we talk about, do you have a 00:21:08.549 --> 00:21:11.970 job as an example? But what we like to look at, 00:21:12.049 --> 00:21:15.750 well, do you have a well -paying job? And then 00:21:15.750 --> 00:21:18.450 to get to a point that Sarah made, do you have 00:21:18.450 --> 00:21:21.190 a meaningful job, a job that you're deriving 00:21:21.190 --> 00:21:24.420 meaning and purpose from? So having a job is 00:21:24.420 --> 00:21:26.859 like an unemployment statistic or an employment 00:21:26.859 --> 00:21:29.299 statistic, but we want to know, do you have a 00:21:29.299 --> 00:21:31.940 well -paying job where you could live? And then 00:21:31.940 --> 00:21:34.920 do you drive meaning from that job? So that's 00:21:34.920 --> 00:21:37.680 like just in one small element, how we try to 00:21:37.680 --> 00:21:41.460 take a very holistic approach to it. And I know 00:21:41.460 --> 00:21:43.579 Sarah has thought about this as well. Yeah. I 00:21:43.579 --> 00:21:45.680 think our biggest goals is we're always trying 00:21:45.680 --> 00:21:49.720 to push what we think we know. I think with veterans 00:21:49.720 --> 00:21:52.079 in the military, and this is probably true of 00:21:52.079 --> 00:21:54.589 a lot of a lot of social issues, but it's very 00:21:54.589 --> 00:21:56.630 easy to fall into narratives. When I started 00:21:56.630 --> 00:21:59.089 my career, the big narrative was people go into 00:21:59.089 --> 00:22:00.910 the military, they go to combat, they get PTSD, 00:22:00.910 --> 00:22:04.509 and then they become suicidal. That's not really 00:22:04.509 --> 00:22:07.990 at all how this population experiences these 00:22:07.990 --> 00:22:10.849 things. It's very simplistic. Most people who 00:22:10.849 --> 00:22:12.990 go to the military don't see combat. A lot of 00:22:12.990 --> 00:22:15.910 people don't even deploy. So we try to think 00:22:15.910 --> 00:22:18.930 about these problems. Are we really getting at 00:22:18.930 --> 00:22:21.690 the issues here? Are we really studying this 00:22:21.690 --> 00:22:24.569 as a whole person. And we focus on things like 00:22:24.569 --> 00:22:27.490 sleep, pain, being in the military is hard on 00:22:27.490 --> 00:22:30.349 your body. They don't really endorse the best 00:22:30.349 --> 00:22:32.349 sleep behaviors and these things follow you and 00:22:32.349 --> 00:22:34.930 they really impact your wellbeing. What role 00:22:34.930 --> 00:22:38.569 do those play in the overall wellbeing of a person? 00:22:39.089 --> 00:22:41.130 So we're always looking to challenge what we 00:22:41.130 --> 00:22:43.750 think we know and dig deeper and to really get 00:22:43.750 --> 00:22:46.349 at the root of how we solve these problems because 00:22:46.349 --> 00:22:48.680 we've been trying to solve these problems. But 00:22:48.680 --> 00:22:50.759 we're not seeing the outcomes we want, right? 00:22:51.059 --> 00:22:53.720 So we want to think differently. And we're always 00:22:53.720 --> 00:22:55.440 thinking about, how do we ask the questions that 00:22:55.440 --> 00:22:57.420 are going to get us real answers to these questions 00:22:57.420 --> 00:23:00.660 and really move us forward in getting to the 00:23:00.660 --> 00:23:02.339 outcomes we want so that our veterans are living 00:23:02.339 --> 00:23:05.039 happy and healthy lives like they deserve? Yeah, 00:23:05.099 --> 00:23:07.599 I love the two of you just articulated trying 00:23:07.599 --> 00:23:10.480 to think outside of the box about getting away 00:23:10.480 --> 00:23:13.140 from these narratives, treating people as a whole 00:23:13.140 --> 00:23:16.400 person, which maybe leads me to So the last question 00:23:16.400 --> 00:23:18.779 that I prepared that I wanted to ask you all, 00:23:18.960 --> 00:23:20.839 along with all the random ones that I threw in 00:23:20.839 --> 00:23:22.980 there just for good measure, but the thought 00:23:22.980 --> 00:23:25.740 was, when talking to civilians, when talking 00:23:25.740 --> 00:23:29.160 to people like me that don't spend their careers 00:23:29.160 --> 00:23:32.730 working with these folks. What is it that you 00:23:32.730 --> 00:23:36.150 wish people understood better about the military 00:23:36.150 --> 00:23:39.210 life or military experience that you can share 00:23:39.210 --> 00:23:41.829 with our listeners here, just as even one or 00:23:41.829 --> 00:23:43.809 two things that you that you want to share? And 00:23:43.809 --> 00:23:46.630 maybe I'll I'll turn first to Carl and then come 00:23:46.630 --> 00:23:48.930 back to you, Sarah. I get asked this question 00:23:48.930 --> 00:23:51.509 a lot. You know, what what should civilians know 00:23:51.509 --> 00:23:55.690 about people that serve? And what I first thing 00:23:55.690 --> 00:23:58.630 I say and Sarah said, it's so much nicer than 00:23:58.630 --> 00:24:01.089 I'm going to say. And that is make no assumptions. 00:24:01.359 --> 00:24:04.640 talk to the veteran, get to know who they are, 00:24:04.740 --> 00:24:08.180 don't make assumptions about what it's like to 00:24:08.180 --> 00:24:12.400 serve. That's number one. Make no assumptions. 00:24:13.180 --> 00:24:18.259 Two, you have to really set expectations for 00:24:18.259 --> 00:24:20.440 veterans. Veterans like to hear, what do you 00:24:20.440 --> 00:24:25.359 expect from me? That's a culturally driven thing 00:24:25.359 --> 00:24:30.589 that for five, six, 10, 20, 30 years, people 00:24:30.589 --> 00:24:33.730 always said, here's the task condition standard. 00:24:34.109 --> 00:24:38.109 That's the expectation of what you want. And 00:24:38.109 --> 00:24:42.009 veterans like that. I think, by the way, non 00:24:42.009 --> 00:24:45.049 -veterans like that too. It's not that they're 00:24:45.049 --> 00:24:47.789 unique, but veterans really, that's their culture 00:24:47.789 --> 00:24:51.119 they come from. What do you expect from me to 00:24:51.119 --> 00:24:53.859 do? What do you expect? In our classrooms, we 00:24:53.859 --> 00:24:58.299 call it rubrics, right? We call it rubrics. And 00:24:58.299 --> 00:25:01.980 people like rubrics. And even though you may 00:25:01.980 --> 00:25:04.000 personally not like rubrics, I struggle with 00:25:04.000 --> 00:25:09.180 them sometimes. But just set expectations. Beautiful. 00:25:09.579 --> 00:25:12.920 Thank you, Carl. I would say for me, and I'll 00:25:12.920 --> 00:25:15.019 just use military transition as an example, but 00:25:15.019 --> 00:25:16.839 I think this applies to a lot of the challenges 00:25:16.839 --> 00:25:20.960 we see in military populations. But when we think 00:25:20.960 --> 00:25:23.299 of military transition, people always want to 00:25:23.299 --> 00:25:25.700 talk about, well, what's going on here? What 00:25:25.700 --> 00:25:27.759 is it about the military? What is it about service 00:25:27.759 --> 00:25:30.859 members who are separating? And I think the basic 00:25:30.859 --> 00:25:33.259 fact is it's just a very hard life experience. 00:25:33.680 --> 00:25:35.500 Everything is different after you transition. 00:25:35.700 --> 00:25:38.519 Carl's experience is not the norm. Most people 00:25:38.759 --> 00:25:41.160 are suddenly living a life that looks very different 00:25:41.160 --> 00:25:44.220 to the one they had before. And that's an experience 00:25:44.220 --> 00:25:47.079 that most of us as civilians are not going to 00:25:47.079 --> 00:25:50.039 understand. But I think we can think about a 00:25:50.039 --> 00:25:51.900 lot of us have had times in our lives where we 00:25:51.900 --> 00:25:54.019 woke up and something has changed profoundly 00:25:54.019 --> 00:25:56.740 in our life. And we need to think about what 00:25:56.740 --> 00:25:58.460 did it take for us to get through that? What 00:25:58.460 --> 00:26:02.440 kind of skills and grace and support did we need? 00:26:02.859 --> 00:26:05.619 And I think these are just hard experiences. 00:26:06.039 --> 00:26:08.720 And I think we need to think about them like 00:26:08.720 --> 00:26:11.099 that instead of trying to think about who's to 00:26:11.099 --> 00:26:13.299 blame or who's deficient here or what's going 00:26:13.299 --> 00:26:16.460 on. But, you know, reflect on your own life and 00:26:16.460 --> 00:26:18.240 think about what if I woke up and everything 00:26:18.240 --> 00:26:20.019 was different and I didn't know who I was? What 00:26:20.019 --> 00:26:22.440 would I need? That's really what's at the root 00:26:22.440 --> 00:26:24.220 of what's going on here. And I think that's how 00:26:24.220 --> 00:26:26.380 we can have some compassion and understanding 00:26:26.380 --> 00:26:28.819 and grace for what everyone is experiencing when 00:26:28.819 --> 00:26:31.180 they go through this. That's beautiful. I want 00:26:31.180 --> 00:26:34.329 to give you each a chance to leave us with some 00:26:34.329 --> 00:26:36.529 closing thoughts other than my prompted closing 00:26:36.529 --> 00:26:39.289 thoughts. So is there something that you Sarah 00:26:39.289 --> 00:26:42.369 would like to have the listeners leave with in 00:26:42.369 --> 00:26:44.750 addition to those thoughts? Yeah, I will give 00:26:44.750 --> 00:26:47.529 a shout out to anyone who's doing this work, 00:26:47.730 --> 00:26:49.230 especially our social work students who are going 00:26:49.230 --> 00:26:50.990 into the military track to the students who are 00:26:50.990 --> 00:26:53.190 thinking about one of the first things I always 00:26:53.190 --> 00:26:55.569 tell my students is how important they are that 00:26:55.569 --> 00:26:58.539 I went into. this career and this work at a time 00:26:58.539 --> 00:27:01.119 where everyone really cared about veterans and 00:27:01.119 --> 00:27:03.519 there was a lot of attention on it. And as Carl 00:27:03.519 --> 00:27:05.599 said, it's not that people don't care about veterans. 00:27:06.099 --> 00:27:08.039 Everywhere I go, people care about the work I'm 00:27:08.039 --> 00:27:09.859 doing. It's just that there's a lot of things 00:27:09.859 --> 00:27:11.799 going on in the world now. There's a lot of choices 00:27:11.799 --> 00:27:13.640 to make about, you know, where you're going to 00:27:13.640 --> 00:27:16.519 put your advocacy. And so I'll just give a shout 00:27:16.519 --> 00:27:18.910 out and to all the people who are choosing to 00:27:18.910 --> 00:27:20.609 do it with this population and to our social 00:27:20.609 --> 00:27:23.250 workers, reminding them how important they are 00:27:23.250 --> 00:27:26.710 for a group who are still facing the same challenges 00:27:26.710 --> 00:27:28.390 that they were when I started my career, but 00:27:28.390 --> 00:27:31.369 aren't really getting the same attention. Carl, 00:27:31.430 --> 00:27:33.670 what would you like our listeners thinking about? 00:27:34.009 --> 00:27:37.750 I would like everyone to realize that no matter 00:27:37.750 --> 00:27:41.089 what topic you're looking at, whether it's mental 00:27:41.089 --> 00:27:43.809 health issues, physical health issues, aging, 00:27:44.190 --> 00:27:48.049 children, families, all of these topics, impact 00:27:48.049 --> 00:27:52.809 veterans too. And I will just, again, using Sarah's 00:27:52.809 --> 00:27:56.609 model, give an example. So veteran homelessness 00:27:56.609 --> 00:28:00.930 is a major, major priority within the nation 00:28:00.930 --> 00:28:02.910 and within the Department of Veterans Affairs. 00:28:03.190 --> 00:28:05.670 There are about 40 ,000 homeless veterans in 00:28:05.670 --> 00:28:10.710 America. In the mid -1980s, there were 400 ,000 00:28:10.710 --> 00:28:15.519 homeless veterans. So we've made huge progress 00:28:15.519 --> 00:28:18.980 in reducing homelessness among veterans that 00:28:18.980 --> 00:28:21.000 we really don't talk about very much because 00:28:21.000 --> 00:28:23.539 we don't have 40 ,000, and that's a big number. 00:28:23.680 --> 00:28:27.480 But there's also a lot of resources put towards 00:28:27.480 --> 00:28:30.880 ending veteran homelessness. If we can't end 00:28:30.880 --> 00:28:33.759 veteran homelessness, there is no way we will 00:28:33.759 --> 00:28:36.339 end homelessness among non -veterans because 00:28:36.339 --> 00:28:39.000 the resources aren't even comparable. And so 00:28:39.000 --> 00:28:41.279 if we could figure out some of these problems 00:28:41.279 --> 00:28:43.910 in the veteran space... I think there's going 00:28:43.910 --> 00:28:46.730 to be pathways to solving these problems in the 00:28:46.730 --> 00:28:49.730 non -veteran space as well. So for those who 00:28:49.730 --> 00:28:51.349 are listening, so why don't look at veterans? 00:28:51.630 --> 00:28:54.569 I'm telling you, all of the issues that you're 00:28:54.569 --> 00:28:56.990 looking at, you see the same issues among veterans. 00:28:57.369 --> 00:28:59.170 This has been such a great conversation. And 00:28:59.170 --> 00:29:03.849 I love the holistic and thoughtful vision of, 00:29:04.250 --> 00:29:07.950 and just human vision that you've given. me this 00:29:07.950 --> 00:29:10.170 today. And I hope our listeners have enjoyed 00:29:10.170 --> 00:29:13.109 it as much as I have. So thank you, Carl. Thank 00:29:13.109 --> 00:29:15.210 you, Sarah, for joining us for such a great conversation. 00:29:15.569 --> 00:29:17.490 If you, the listener, want to learn more about 00:29:17.490 --> 00:29:19.990 the military and veterans programs or research 00:29:19.990 --> 00:29:22.309 on military and veterans, you can visit our school's 00:29:22.309 --> 00:29:27.140 website, which is dworakpeck .usc .edu. And if 00:29:27.140 --> 00:29:29.359 you have questions for the guests on our show 00:29:29.359 --> 00:29:31.880 or want to support the transformative research 00:29:31.880 --> 00:29:35.859 and programs at USC around veterans, you can 00:29:35.859 --> 00:29:40.539 email us at listen up people at USC .edu. And 00:29:40.539 --> 00:29:43.299 once again, Carl, Sarah, thank you both so much 00:29:43.299 --> 00:29:45.440 for being here. Thank you. Thank you. Happy to 00:29:45.440 --> 00:29:45.900 be here.