Hello and welcome to Listen Up People, a podcast
of the USC Suzanne Dworak-Peck School of Social
Work. I'm Dr. Eric Rice, professor and associate
dean for research. Today we're going to delve
into issues related to the experiences of foster
youth and specifically youth transitioning out
of the foster care system. It's important to
recognize that every year 600 ,000 children spend
some time in foster care. And today my guests
are to folks who are deeply involved in this
work. I'd like to welcome Dr. Julie Cederbaum,
Associate Professor and Social Worker, whose
expertise lies in issues around children and
families with a particular focus on the impact
of childhood adversity and family processes on
the well -being of youth, and Sara Jimenez McSweyn,
who is a professor in the School of Social Work
and also a social worker, who has focused on
the relationship between youth and family ties,
and who serves as the coordinator for the Trojan
Guardian Scholars Program, which is committed
to supporting current and former foster youth
who attend USC. It's great to have you both here.
Before I start diving into the topic in real
detail, I want to ask something a little more
personal, which is Was there a moment in your
career that was really pivotal for you in terms
of getting involved in this issue of foster youth
or former foster youth that you're doing this
work with? Maybe I'll turn to Sarah first. You
know, I don't know that there was a particular
moment, Eric. But I do remember that the first
job I ever had was working in an outpatient community
mental health clinic here in LA County. And it
just so happened that the community I was working
in was in a part of the county where many, many
foster families were located. So by default,
I started working with a lot of foster youth
who were in foster placement. And I just was
really fascinated by the nature of the relational
dynamics between them and their foster parents
and their feelings and experiences related to
their families of origin and the complex dynamics
that played out and I'm a You know, I'm trained
as a clinician. So, you know, we I was looking
at attachment theory, etc. And I realized this
is much more complex You know then I was taught
in the school of social work because you know
here when I was a student here was a nuclear
family the traditional and this was like just
so many different variations to experience and
so I just got very interested in that whole process
you know what happens to to kids who live in
foster homes. What is that like? And what happens
to the relationships they have with other foster
kids, with their parents? What happens when they
go to high school? You know, what stories do
they tell about their lives? And so that's how
I first became interested in all of this. Oh,
that's great. That's great. Julie, what about
you? Yeah, and I think my experiences mirror
Sara's a bit. I was working post MSW at a housing
program also in Northeast L .A. and I was not
specifically focused on foster care, child welfare
system, but so many of the families who live
there had interface with the child welfare system.
And so it wasn't possible really to practice
as a social worker if you were doing family work
and not have connections or kind of work that
was integrated with child welfare workers. And
so sometimes that was the need to remove children.
Sometimes that was about reunification. And so
I I think that I came to learn pretty quickly.
The child welfare system for families with a
lot of adversity and distress tends to be a system
they interface with at some point. and that there
wasn't clear connection or work that was being
done once kids returned. What had their experience
been? How were they meant to integrate when they
were taken out of the home into wherever they
were going? How were they meant to reintegrate
after they returned? And then over time, that
family work as a researcher led to a pretty strong
relationship with Children's Institute here in
Los Angeles, as well as Optimist Youth Homes
and Family Services, both who serve youth transitioning
out of foster care, and it became very apparent
to me that there hadn't been a lot of change,
even in the 20 years since I had been doing that
direct practice. And so there was a real need
both for kind of thinking through direct practice
and evidence -based intervention for this population,
but also policy changes that I think are strongly
needed and I hope will be forthcoming with the
advocacy efforts going on currently. Yeah, yeah.
This makes me think I want to actually ask you
both some questions about what's happening with
these folks. I mean, you've both alluded to in
your stories about how you got into this work
that these are very complex relationships. These
are lots of different things happening. This
doesn't really fit the usual mold of the way
that people maybe are trained around clinical
work, around families. And so maybe just start
for our listeners with. some of the basics, like
what are some of the issues that impact young
people when they're transitioning out of foster
care that our listeners may not even understand?
I'll turn to Julie first and then Sarah, I'd
love to hear what your thoughts on this topic
is as well. Sure, no, this is an important question.
I think it's important to contextualize. There
is federal monies that are kind of given to the
states through the Chafee Act to provide services
to youth to help in the transition out of foster
care. So we don't want to report that there is
no support being given. There are supports. However,
when you think about these supports through a
developmental lens, we've got a lot of problems.
So one of the issues is that these support services
can happen within a two -year period anytime
between the age of 16 and 21. 16 is a little
late to start some of this stuff. 21 is definitely
too late to be doing it, but it also doesn't
span enough time. Most of the services, you know,
the fee is about, they'll pay for about three
to five hours of contact with a youth a month.
And if you think about the state's responsibility,
right? We've removed a child from a family unit.
The state is now serving as the de facto parent
and yet they're only giving three to five hours
a month of time to quote unquote provide that
type of parenting. Now, of course, the state
is not a person, but I... right in the context
of a child or an individual young person who's
not been in foster care, they're having kind
of these types of conversations on an ongoing
basis with a support network. And so there's
the challenge of when services get started, the
amount of time or lack of the amount of time
that's given, and then the expectation of readiness
to be an adult, which is a pretty unfair expectation
placed on youth transitioning out of foster care
because most 18 year olds don't just get launched
into the world to take care of their housing,
to have their banking and their security, all
these things. I was just going to ask you, what
does it even mean to be an adult these days,
right? And for these young people, I mean, so
you're talking about housing on your own. Yeah.
Bank account on your own. Financial. Right. Kind
of managing finances, paying taxes, things that
kind of young people don't tend to do without
supports of adults in their life, decision -making
related to school. And so I think honestly, the
issue of time for me is kind of the blaring issue.
And that is, if we want more, we know that foster
youth drop out of college at greater rates. We
want them to complete college. Well, one, they've
got to get to college. So right. So then we need
to be providing real supports in high school
to get them tracked, because how does a young
person and I'll give you a quick story. I had
two former foster youth working on a research
project with me, one who is at a UC school and
one that's at a community college. And that child
who was in who was at the UC school or now or
the young person, young adult, I should say,
shared that. In ninth grade, she just looked
around to see what the smart kids were taking
the classes. There was no one guiding her. Sure.
Right. So the other piece of this is and she
ended up doing incredibly well, but she had some
level of motivation. She kind of was resilient
enough to figure out, OK, I don't know what I'm
supposed to be doing, but I have a sense that
these people do. And therefore, I'm just going
to kind of replicate what they're doing. And
so this other piece that I think is really critical
for us to be talking about and thinking about,
and I'll throw it to Sara, is this idea that
we kind of expect these young people to just
be resilient. And that's a pretty unfair expectation
as well. And they are incredibly resilient. However,
you know, how How much can you be responsible
for all of these things? I think Julie touched
on so many different issues that I see play out
in the lives of the kids that I work with here
at USC. But I also think that the structural
resources that Julie is alluding to in terms
of what the state is doing, et cetera, to try
and provide some level of support for these youth
are, you know, Not enough. Beyond that, until
recently, actually, which is a really troubling
and disturbing fact, and Julie knows about this,
until recently, the states throughout the United
States who had the discretion to access foster
youths, parents' survivor benefits. So let's
say a kid in foster care and their parent dies.
The states had discretion to access those Social
Security Administration survivor benefits. It
should have been then going to these foster youth
to offset the cost of caring for these kids in
foster care. that was pretty heinous and outrageous.
I think the other issue that I think we want
to mention is the sense of limited capacity to
fill a personal agency, that sense of powerlessness,
the kind of structural variables that have been
at play in California, in the county of Los Angeles,
right, where we think we're so progressive. These
kids were losing access to these survivor benefits.
Think about that, you know, a kid ages out of
foster care into poverty. Right and why couldn't
we just set aside those funds and put a little
savings account for them, right? So that that
would it has changed in the state of California
I don't know if it's changed elsewhere. Now.
That's a structural issue. That's so problematic
that existed for very long I think the other
thing that is interesting is the more nuanced
experiences of what Julie was talking about.
I was sitting here just Wednesday we had a lunch
for all our you know, Progen Guardian scholars,
I find that if you feed them, it really helps,
you know, metaphorically, it's also important,
you know, it's it's nurturing. And so, of course,
we have food here for them. And they were sitting
around chatting with me. And one of them came
to me and she said, you know, I have to buy some
pots and pans for my apartment. And I said, oh,
good. And she says, what about? those skillets,
those cast iron skillets. I said, what about
them, sweetie? He says, how do we care for them?
How do I take care of them? And so I explained
to her and she sat there and she said, You know,
I grew up and nobody explained these kinds of
things to me, you know, what I should do, where
I should, and those are the kinds of things that
happen, you know, in their lives. You know, I
don't, a bank account, some of our kids were
ripped off at the local stores here in the neighborhood
because they live, they're kind of on their own.
Right. And one of them came to us and said, you
know, I'm having trouble having doing my taxes
because for a while I was being paid with personal
checks. And then at other times I was get a payroll
check. And now I don't know how I'm going to
do my taxes. That kind of stuff is the kind of
stuff you if you have parents or you have loving
foster parents, you have folks in your life who
kind of step in to sort of nurture and support
you, then great. But I think then they are sometimes
easily exploited. So these are just the ones.
idiosyncratic experiences, but it tells you something.
The other thing, for example, is they apply for
scholarships. Most scholarships want to see their
parents' income tax returns. These kids don't
have access to that, right? And so I end up having
to write letters saying, by the way, so as I
am here to confirm. Can I do that? I don't know,
but I say it anyways, because those are obstacles
that they face. When you were talking about this
earlier, Julian, you're saying, you know, three
to five hours, and then I'm thinking about all
these obstacles that Sara was just mentioning
and think about, how are you possibly going to
get through any of those things with three to
five hours in a month, right? I mean, that's,
that's just, that seems really, really challenging.
I know you're both really interested in family
relationships and family systems and the complexity
of this. From your perspective, I mean, how is
it that the presence of adults plays into the
lives of these youth? I mean, you know, obviously
they're removed from a family. So there's this
fracture that's happened. But how do these young
people then proceed afterwards? And what are
those relationships? And what do they look like?
And what kind of do we need to do about them?
Jill, you want to maybe take this first? You
know, Sarah and I both kind of give examples
of folks who might not have had any contact with
family or had limited contact. But I think it's
important for us to state that most of these
youth have contact with their families, sometimes
with the parent who was the perpetrator or did
not stop the perpetration. But even if it's not
the parent, their grandparent or siblings, their
aunts and uncles. And so I. And that can be positive,
but can also mean a continued connection into
a dysfunctional family system. And so we know
that there's a fair number of our kids who, you
know, feel responsible for supporting family
members. It's right. They're trying to kind of
take on this dual very kind of parentified role
with their family system. And that can create
complications. And we see that for other populations,
particularly in college settings. Right. It's
not unique to foster youth, but I do think there's
I would say a fair. A majority do have contact
with some family. That family though might not
have been able to take them in. They might not
have been able to provide the support or require
or meet the requirements of the child welfare
system to house them. But I think what happens
with young people is that generally it's our
systems that step in, you know, community based
organizations. But because of the limited time
that supportive adult doesn't stay attached.
along the way. So either that young person has
to continually tell their story to find teachers
that will be helpful, because teachers step up
in all sorts of ways, both in high school. University
professors, we know, step up and step in in multiple
ways to provide supports. But it does require
this young person to be retelling their story.
and potentially re -traumatizing themselves to
kind of get what they need. And I would really
love to kind of think through and see more work
being done about building social networks and
social relationships with stable adults for young
people, whether it's coaches, teachers, but folks
who can help them through transitions and across
time. not just in the setting where they meet
them or know them. So we think there's an organization
called Kids Save that does this for older foster
youth. They're based out of in Los Angeles, in
Houston, and on the East Coast. There are organizations
like Big Brothers, Big Sisters, right, which
has that type of model. I don't know how engaged
they are with youth in foster care, but they
do have this model, right, of this idea that
like you may be from a family system that has
adversity. And so we kind of introduce stable
people, but Big Brothers, Big Sisters, those
folks stay over a long period of time connected
to these young people and sometimes across their
lifespan. And so I think the challenge that really
for me rises is this lack of stable, supportive
adults, resulting then in the reliance on, again,
kind of some level of resiliency or kind of great
fortitude to figure things out on one's own or
relying on peers. which, you know, peers can
be supportive, but they're not generally the
best guiders because they don't know particularly
more than you do as a young person. And so it
leaves these young people kind of unclear of
you don't know what you don't know. So what do
you how do you ask for something when you don't
even know you're supposed to know it or ask for
it? So creates this complication that I think
is again goes back to kind of this developmental
readiness. And yeah, yeah. I do agree with Julie.
I was going to say I wrote some of the notes.
And Julie, one of the things that I had written
in terms of misunderstandings that people have
about this population is the notion that their
families of origin are not part of their lives
when they age out of foster care, which is just
not the case. But as Julie described, it's a
complex dynamic. We've had a couple of kids who
then dread going home for summer. you know, leaving
the campus and going back to Pennsylvania or
Florida or whatever, because, you know, one of
them said to me, it's just that I have to go
back and I'm back in that whole place with my
mom and my uncles. You know, that kind of situation
that sometimes can sort of be. re -traumatizing
for them. But they have to do that summer shuffle,
you see, because they can't stay on campus. So
housing is a real issue and challenge. I think
the other thing that I think is important for
us to remember about this population of foster
youth, I'm thinking of just the USC population
of kids. They all, you know, come into USC with
a 3 .8 or 3 .75 GPA, very bright kids. But the
idea that resilience in that particular domain,
you know, the area of cognitive skills, et cetera,
does not necessarily imply resilience in other
developmental domains. You know, social well
-being, relational dynamics, et cetera. And so
you come to college, right, and you're in this
context, in this environment, you're taking your
classes, but you don't know how to negotiate
the other pieces of the puzzle, right? You don't
know how to navigate that. And so there's that
kind of vulnerability. that plays out. At the
same time then you have other kids who come and
they've been in foster care and they I have one
of our kids who had a paid internship at JPL
this summer and it's doing really really well
so there's a gamut but most of our kids in TJS
are anxious about Who is there for them? What
is going on in terms of reliable adults, people
who they can just feel safe with and anchored
in relationship with? Well, Sarah, let me ask
you to lean into that for a minute because my
impression is that you, as a person who runs
Trojan Guardian Scholars, become that person
oftentimes, right? Or the people that you're
working with do. So can you maybe for our listeners
who have no idea what a Trojan Guardian Scholar
is, or even some sort of program that supports,
can you talk about what it is that this program
does? Yeah, let me share with you briefly. So
the Trojan Guardian Scholars program is our university's
effort to replicate a model that was originally
established in 1998 at Cal State Fullerton. In
response to the needs of former foster youth
who attend post -secondary education Why graduation
rates are appalling 3 to 11 percent of kids graduate
with this lived experience graduate from college
So there's a sense we have to do something about
it So this and when they do get it when their
dropout rates are extremely high, right? Whatever
was offered at the university just wasn't adequate
was not helping this population. So it was created
Cal State Fullerton. Now it exists throughout
the UC system and throughout Cal State universities
and community colleges because the state of California
mandates this program now in the universities.
Some of the universities have very robust programs
with a fairly significant level of support. UCLA
two or three years ago had 400 kids in the Guardian
Scholars Program, right? Every community college
has an office, a branch. How their staff varies.
USC has no obligation. USC is a private university,
and they are not required or mandated by the
state to offer any level of support. So the reason
we exist here at USC is because of the work of
Wendy Smith -Meyer and Jacqueline Kroski. And
Wendy supports us. She supports us with a gift.
It started at USC because of their advocacy for
this population, and it started about 12, 13
years ago. And Wendy approached Dean Flynn about,
you know, let's establish a chapter here. It's
social work. And Marilyn was not supportive of
that. And her, I believe, one of the arguments
was that, you know, TGS really focuses on undergraduate
students for obvious reasons, right? We need
to kind of make sure they get through school.
But there was a sense that this was not a program
that was really going to be something that is
helpful to our MSW students. So Wendy went to
Dornsife. at USC and Dornsife embraced the program
and they had a wonderful ally at Dornsife, Dr.
George Sanchez and the program was launched there
and it really initially offered fairly robust
levels of support to the very small cohort of
students here at USC but eventually the decision
when Sarah Gellert was here, Wendy brought it
back and there was an openness to bring it back
and that's how the program established here.
Well, I mean, it makes sense that we in social
work would be hosting such a program. I mean,
even if it is mostly focused on undergraduates,
I mean, this is this is where the social workers
are. Exactly. This is, you know, so it's great
that it's great that you're doing this and about
how many students do you do you work with? On
average, we have between 35 and 40 students.
Currently we have 27 and we're going through
the process of bringing them aboard the new students
who have just approached us about joining Trojan
Guardian Scholars and there's about eight of
them who approached me over the summer. Financial
Aid sends them our flyer. We can't have the names
obviously for reasons of privacy and confidentiality.
We can't access to that data set, you know, that
cohort of students, but we negotiate and strengthen
our relationship with financial aid and said,
hey, can you just send this out to them? And
then they approach us, you know, and they decide
at what level they want to remain engaged with
us, but we make sure that they know we're here.
That's great. And what are the sort of support
services that you offer to these young people?
people. Well, we know that they're going to have
difficulty staying enrolled. Okay, we know that
they're probably going to have some challenges
with housing. We know that this happens that
an army hybrid 70 % of these kids drop out within
their first year of college. Okay. So we know
that they're going to have a tough time navigating
college, the college experience. So what we do
is we cajole and beg financial assistance to
look at what's going on, get them scholarships.
We developed a whole spreadsheet on all the different
scholarships. And those are the kinds of things.
And then we provide a space where they can just
drop in, you know, if they're having a tough
time. We just had a couple of our kids who were,
you know, in a relationship just broke up. So
it's just so sweet. I mean, this kids, the kind
of stuff that happens in life happens in this
community. So they've been coming in and talking
to me about that. And then another one, another
one of our kids just lost her dad, her biological
father. And this is where what Julie was talking
about is important. And she, she came and she
was talking to me about it because she said,
you know, my family's been protecting me from
contact with my father, but he was my dad, you
know, and, and I, and I feel like, you know,
that loss was a big one for me, even though he
wasn't part of my life. life for 20 years, you
know, but, you know, so just providing a space
where they can come and then figuring out what
we can connect them with. Yeah, that's fabulous.
That's fabulous. I think that's such amazing
and important work to be providing for these
students. It makes me think, you know, as you're
providing these resources and doing the work
of a social worker, one of the other things that
we do a lot here at the School of Social Work
is we do research on populations, right? One
thing is I'm really interested, and you're talking
about data made me think about this. I thought,
oh, you know, hard to solve problems when you
don't know exactly what's going on. I mean, data
is an advocacy tool in some respects. But thinking
about that angle, Julia, I know you're a very
active researcher and you work on this. Are there
particular topics that you think need more exploration
or that you're engaging in recently that you
think, you know, really are important to move
the needle for these folks? Yeah, absolutely.
And some of these projects that Anna and I are
doing together. So it's kind of be talking, having
both of us to hear together because I think there's
a lot of synergy in the way we think about things.
little to no, there's one promising intervention,
but evidence -based interventions for youth transitioning
out of the foster care system. Just as a basic
science kind of evidence -based interventions,
there's a lot of work to be done in our scientific
communities. One of the things Sarah and I are
interested in is getting a sense of Trojan scholars
across the state at different institutions. You
know, our numbers are small, but there does not
seem to be a central hub gathering information
from the Guardian Scholars programs all across
the state. So it's kind of a funny situation
to have like state funding and state mandates
to do work that then nobody's really tracking.
So I think really kind of critical to understand
that Sada and I have talked about is kind of
what do their social networks and social relationships
looks like? And how does that impact their just
overall wellbeing? Obviously, we would look at
mental health, we would look at domains of, you
know, coping, right? Because that's, you know,
different coping styles can result in more positive
or challenging mental distress. And that's something
that's really modifiable. And she and I both
know how to modify that, right? So kind of thinking
about ways social networks can be built, mental
health can be strengthened. So I think that the
work that's been done has been good. There is.
the hub at UC Berkeley that does collect data
on kids transitioning out of foster care, but
it's really focused on kind of more epidemiological
data, meaning like how many are homeless or not,
how many are in higher ed or not, and not about
kind of what facilitates good things happening
and what creates challenges. And so I think.
we're really interested in having a better understanding
of what strengthens or what things lead to better
outcomes for these youth so that we can create
evidence -based interventions and test interventions
to really strengthen both the readiness and the
support over time for youth so that they can
thrive. I mean, I think we owe it to these young
people. to carry that all the way through. And
universities owe it to young people to provide
housing when we shut down for breaks in the summer,
in winter, Thanksgiving. We owe them kind of
direct clinical practice work, but also I think
policy change to really enhance their lives.
Like that is what a parent would do. If the state
is your parent, then they need to kind of fulfill
that role as well. And I think one of the things
that Julie and I had discussed made me think
about something that we did here at TGS, which
was to just start. collecting a lot of data and
research and information related to this population.
And that information was shared with Julie. And
it can just kind of be used. I mean, it's just
rough data, whatever. But there's a piece to
the work we're doing here that is about building
a sense of community and connectedness. But we
understand the importance of the work that Julie
can do and why research is so essential. Right.
I mean, I think research needs clinical practice
and clinical practice needs research. I think
there's a synergy and things are really much
more impactful when researchers are listening
to clinicians and when clinicians have access
to researchers. I mean, I think it's a really
powerful synergy that you have going on. And
it's great that you have a shared vision of the
well -being for these folks. Working with these
young people or working on research with these
young people, but is there anything that is really
burning in your mind? that you'd like to share
with the listeners before we say goodbye here.
One of the things that I've learned from them
that has been really important to me has been
the fact that it is their story to tell. Do you
know what I mean? They need to be the ones who
are deciding what story they share, with whom
they share it. And I need to step back. And not
just listen, but allow them to define how it
is that they want to present themselves in this
context, right? They need to be centered in this
process. It's more of an overarching commitment
to respecting them. Yeah, not surprising. Sarah
and I were about to say the same thing. You know,
I was going to use the quote, nothing for us
without us or nothing about us without us, which
is really, you know, comes out of the disability
and social justice movement. But I think speaks
to this population as well. Part of the research
that we've done includes young people as part
of our data collection teams. We can't understand.
problems without including the voice of people
who have lived experience. And if we want to
be relevant, and if we want to be changemakers,
we have to uplift or lift up people and provide
them the experiences. I think one of the things
that these young people don't have a lot of is
experience, experience to try research, experience
to try different jobs or working experience.
So if you think of, and these are paid opportunities,
right? So this is not asking for free labor.
This is really being intentional and inclusive
of young people as part of our teams and to make
change and to be leaders in that change. And
for them to be able to walk away from the experiences
and working with us with tools and skills that
will launch them into whatever careers they choose
moving forward. Thank you so much. I mean, and
I just want to say thank you, Julie. Thank you,
Sarah. This has been such a great conversation.
I want to say to our listeners, if you want to
learn more about the work that our school and
these folks are doing with the Trojan Guardian
Scholars, you can visit our website, which is
dworakpeck .usk .edu. And if you have questions
for the guests on our show, or you want to support
our transformative research and programs, please
email us at listenuppeople at usc .edu. And thanks
once again, folks. It was great to have you here
today. Thank you. Bye.