WEBVTT 00:00:13.830 --> 00:00:16.789 Hello and welcome to Listen Up People, a podcast 00:00:16.789 --> 00:00:19.809 of the USC Suzanne Dworak-Peck School of Social 00:00:19.809 --> 00:00:22.929 Work. I'm Dr. Eric Rice, professor and associate 00:00:22.929 --> 00:00:27.089 dean for research. My guests today are two prolific 00:00:27.089 --> 00:00:29.570 researchers who are dedicated to advancing the 00:00:29.570 --> 00:00:32.189 health and wellbeing of the LGBT population. 00:00:33.149 --> 00:00:36.270 Overall, LGBT individuals experience significantly 00:00:36.270 --> 00:00:38.929 higher rates of health, mental health, and behavioral 00:00:38.929 --> 00:00:41.789 health problems than their heterosexual peers. 00:00:42.299 --> 00:00:47.740 Yet research on these disparities is under -researched 00:00:47.740 --> 00:00:50.740 and lacking. The current political climate has 00:00:50.740 --> 00:00:53.840 raised questions around there being an even less 00:00:53.840 --> 00:00:56.320 welcoming environment for research around these 00:00:56.320 --> 00:00:59.259 issues. But my guests today have a vision of 00:00:59.259 --> 00:01:01.380 a world that promotes the physical, emotional, 00:01:01.920 --> 00:01:04.439 and social well -being of all people, regardless 00:01:04.439 --> 00:01:07.519 of their sexual orientation or gender identity. 00:01:07.680 --> 00:01:11.140 So let me introduce my two colleagues, Associate 00:01:11.140 --> 00:01:14.540 Professor Dr. John Blosnich, whose expertise 00:01:14.540 --> 00:01:17.859 focuses on health disparities related to sexual 00:01:17.859 --> 00:01:21.379 orientation and gender identity, and Assistant 00:01:21.379 --> 00:01:25.120 Professor Dr. Gabriel Robles, who focuses his 00:01:25.120 --> 00:01:29.000 research on healthcare access and wellbeing of 00:01:29.000 --> 00:01:31.819 sexual and gender minorities. Welcome both of 00:01:31.819 --> 00:01:34.370 you. Thanks. Thank you. Glad you could spend 00:01:34.370 --> 00:01:37.150 some time with me here today and with our listeners. 00:01:37.730 --> 00:01:40.049 I want to start with something a little more 00:01:40.049 --> 00:01:43.030 perhaps personal, rather than just jumping right 00:01:43.030 --> 00:01:45.469 into your research, which is something that I've 00:01:45.469 --> 00:01:48.750 been trying to ask folks in these podcasts, which 00:01:48.750 --> 00:01:53.189 is What got you interested in doing this kind 00:01:53.189 --> 00:01:56.129 of research? Did you have a moment in your life 00:01:56.129 --> 00:01:59.129 or an experience that made you think I have to 00:01:59.129 --> 00:02:02.189 work on, you know, with this population on these 00:02:02.189 --> 00:02:06.109 issues? Maybe we'll turn to to John first. Was 00:02:06.109 --> 00:02:08.469 there was there a white light moment for you 00:02:08.469 --> 00:02:10.930 in this in this world of research? You know, 00:02:10.930 --> 00:02:13.449 I think for me, it's clearly a personal thing, 00:02:13.750 --> 00:02:16.370 too. But for me, it came when I was doing my 00:02:16.370 --> 00:02:17.889 training in public health and how I kind of found 00:02:17.889 --> 00:02:19.669 my way to public health. You know, I knew I always 00:02:19.669 --> 00:02:22.430 want to be an advocate, but I knew I was not 00:02:22.430 --> 00:02:25.289 the person to be standing in front of any sort 00:02:25.289 --> 00:02:28.909 of decision making group to try to make a plea. 00:02:29.490 --> 00:02:31.509 I'm more of a behind the scenes advocate. So 00:02:31.509 --> 00:02:34.539 I was like. you know, to the more polished people 00:02:34.539 --> 00:02:38.639 who speak real well, I was like, tell me what 00:02:38.639 --> 00:02:41.860 you need to know, and I will find the data, find 00:02:41.860 --> 00:02:44.479 the studies for it, or I will do them to give 00:02:44.479 --> 00:02:48.039 you that information to take forward. So, you 00:02:48.039 --> 00:02:51.919 know, I kind of found a place to hone my advocacy 00:02:51.919 --> 00:02:54.659 and in research. Yeah, and that's kind of how 00:02:54.659 --> 00:02:57.069 that's great. That's great. Gabriel, how about 00:02:57.069 --> 00:02:59.189 you? Was there was there a moment that you said, 00:02:59.189 --> 00:03:02.770 oh, this is what I want to do with my career? 00:03:03.169 --> 00:03:06.909 Yeah, so it started just I had just graduated 00:03:06.909 --> 00:03:10.590 from undergrad. So I was in Long Beach and I 00:03:10.590 --> 00:03:12.629 was working at the Y. I was working with kids 00:03:12.629 --> 00:03:16.009 and the kids, you know, at certain times of the 00:03:16.009 --> 00:03:18.849 afternoon, I mean, after school hours, they go 00:03:18.849 --> 00:03:22.009 out and have structured kind of recess. And so 00:03:22.009 --> 00:03:24.860 I stayed behind and I cleaned up. the office. 00:03:25.099 --> 00:03:27.719 There's a bunch of toys everywhere. One of the 00:03:27.719 --> 00:03:31.039 white staff brings in a kid saying, oh, he's 00:03:31.039 --> 00:03:33.139 not feeling well. Can he, you know, sitting here? 00:03:33.159 --> 00:03:36.000 Well, they have recess. So I said, yes, but I'm 00:03:36.000 --> 00:03:37.400 going to be cleaning. If that's okay, you can 00:03:37.400 --> 00:03:39.659 help me. And he said, oh, I'll just watch. And 00:03:39.659 --> 00:03:41.759 so I was cleaning up. I had a bunch of toys. 00:03:42.159 --> 00:03:44.580 I put on, you know, a fake crown and like some 00:03:44.580 --> 00:03:46.419 beads just because I wanted to, you know, carry 00:03:46.419 --> 00:03:49.259 it all at once. And the kid comes up to me and 00:03:49.259 --> 00:03:53.139 asks, you like to play princess? Can we do that? 00:03:53.530 --> 00:03:56.229 And I said, oh, yeah, I like to play princess. 00:03:56.449 --> 00:03:57.990 It doesn't matter as long as, you know, I'm having 00:03:57.990 --> 00:03:59.849 fun. That's all I care about. And that's when 00:03:59.849 --> 00:04:02.770 I knew that there was something happening, like 00:04:02.770 --> 00:04:05.770 with well -being and like these kids. So I wanted 00:04:05.770 --> 00:04:08.770 to kind of explore that a little more. How old 00:04:08.770 --> 00:04:13.550 is this kid? I believe he was in either kindergarten 00:04:13.550 --> 00:04:16.250 or first grade. I don't exactly remember. Yeah, 00:04:16.569 --> 00:04:20.259 that's great. Can I play princess? Well. Speaking 00:04:20.259 --> 00:04:22.420 of well -being, I know both of you are really 00:04:22.420 --> 00:04:27.660 invested in this. I mean, John, you have been 00:04:27.660 --> 00:04:30.319 doing some really, I guess it's nice to start 00:04:30.319 --> 00:04:33.259 with a story about a kid who's making Gabriel 00:04:33.259 --> 00:04:36.540 smile because I think your stories tend to get 00:04:36.540 --> 00:04:41.720 a bit darker, a bit faster. But I know that you're 00:04:41.720 --> 00:04:45.360 doing some really groundbreaking work on... sexual 00:04:45.360 --> 00:04:48.779 orientation and gender identity that is buried 00:04:48.779 --> 00:04:51.279 within mortality surveillance data. So I mean, 00:04:51.600 --> 00:04:53.620 not to be a downer, but you're doing some really 00:04:53.620 --> 00:04:55.540 groundbreaking work. You want to talk to us a 00:04:55.540 --> 00:04:58.379 little bit about how you got into that and what 00:04:58.379 --> 00:05:00.839 sort of work you're doing in that space? Yeah, 00:05:00.920 --> 00:05:02.959 absolutely. I don't mind dimming a room. I seem 00:05:02.959 --> 00:05:05.399 to do that every time I walk into one. So what 00:05:05.399 --> 00:05:07.920 happens when we don't have well -being in a community? 00:05:09.199 --> 00:05:11.220 is that we know that it doesn't bode well to 00:05:11.220 --> 00:05:14.480 thriving or survival. And so we have a lot of 00:05:14.480 --> 00:05:20.279 research that focuses on the increased risk profiles 00:05:20.279 --> 00:05:22.240 that happen for people who are sexual and gender 00:05:22.240 --> 00:05:26.240 minorities. Increased rates of smoking, substance 00:05:26.240 --> 00:05:29.459 use, suicidal ideation, suicide attempts, a lot 00:05:29.459 --> 00:05:32.060 of health risks there, but we don't know a lot 00:05:32.060 --> 00:05:34.589 about the ultimate outcome. in public health, 00:05:34.730 --> 00:05:36.829 which is mortality. So one of the best ways to 00:05:36.829 --> 00:05:39.170 keep populations alive is to learn about what's 00:05:39.170 --> 00:05:41.610 killing them. It lets you focus your energies 00:05:41.610 --> 00:05:44.170 and your interventions on, you know, what are 00:05:44.170 --> 00:05:46.550 the priorities that are actually limiting people's 00:05:46.550 --> 00:05:50.329 lives. We don't have that for LGBT populations 00:05:50.329 --> 00:05:52.250 because we don't have that information about 00:05:52.250 --> 00:05:55.740 mortality in terms of sexual orientation and 00:05:55.740 --> 00:05:58.120 gender identity. You know, you could look up 00:05:58.120 --> 00:06:00.480 and know what are the top 10 leading causes of 00:06:00.480 --> 00:06:03.319 death for someone based on race, race, ethnicity, 00:06:04.040 --> 00:06:06.019 based on sex. I mean, hell, even where they live, 00:06:06.300 --> 00:06:08.500 we could generate top 10 leading causes based 00:06:08.500 --> 00:06:10.779 on zip code. But we don't have that for sexual 00:06:10.779 --> 00:06:13.000 orientation, gender identity. And for those of 00:06:13.000 --> 00:06:15.259 us working in the suicide prevention space, it's 00:06:15.259 --> 00:06:18.180 a problem. If we don't have this ultimate outcome, 00:06:18.600 --> 00:06:21.139 we don't know how to really quantify the burden 00:06:21.139 --> 00:06:23.509 of disease, which is one of the key things that 00:06:23.509 --> 00:06:26.930 epidemiologists do. But we also cannot do the 00:06:26.930 --> 00:06:29.370 second thing, which is, you know, how do we hatch 00:06:29.370 --> 00:06:32.009 prevention? And how do we evaluate that it's 00:06:32.009 --> 00:06:33.930 actually working? If you don't have a benchmark, 00:06:34.529 --> 00:06:38.110 you can't tell if the program you launch has 00:06:38.110 --> 00:06:39.769 made a dent in that because you don't know it's 00:06:39.769 --> 00:06:43.050 gone up or gone down. You don't have a rate of 00:06:43.050 --> 00:06:45.829 death. So you don't you can't evaluate your solution. 00:06:46.310 --> 00:06:50.079 So we started from from scratch and from scratch 00:06:50.079 --> 00:06:52.959 in a very dark place, which is where do these 00:06:52.959 --> 00:06:58.459 mortality data originate? And that is with medical 00:06:58.459 --> 00:07:01.259 examiner and coroner's offices. Suicide deaths, 00:07:01.699 --> 00:07:03.660 specifically what I focus on my research on, 00:07:04.339 --> 00:07:07.199 they all go through coroner and medical examiner 00:07:07.199 --> 00:07:09.540 systems. And that's where we learn about the 00:07:09.540 --> 00:07:12.269 circumstances of how someone you know, died. 00:07:13.069 --> 00:07:15.750 They don't routinely gather information about 00:07:15.750 --> 00:07:17.750 sexual orientation and gender identity. So we 00:07:17.750 --> 00:07:19.829 hatched a plan to develop and test a training 00:07:19.829 --> 00:07:22.769 for death, specifically medical legal death investigators, 00:07:23.149 --> 00:07:27.029 and how to gather this information in the course 00:07:27.029 --> 00:07:30.589 of their investigations. So that's what we, we 00:07:30.589 --> 00:07:32.589 spent a couple of years doing that on a study 00:07:32.589 --> 00:07:37.149 that was funded from 2020 to 2022. We train death 00:07:37.149 --> 00:07:39.329 investigators in LA County and in the state of 00:07:39.329 --> 00:07:43.019 Utah. and along the way learned about how to, 00:07:43.240 --> 00:07:46.480 from these investigators, how do we edit this 00:07:46.480 --> 00:07:49.360 training, what information was left out that 00:07:49.360 --> 00:07:52.839 they need to know, what elements of their job 00:07:52.839 --> 00:07:55.720 need to be represented to increase the credibility 00:07:55.720 --> 00:07:59.180 of this kind of a training. So it was a really 00:07:59.180 --> 00:08:04.379 fascinating education. in how I became partially 00:08:04.379 --> 00:08:07.180 a workforce trainer when I never thought I would 00:08:07.180 --> 00:08:09.720 be because I always envisioned myself as a kind 00:08:09.720 --> 00:08:12.910 of a data jockey analyst kind of person. Yeah, 00:08:13.149 --> 00:08:14.990 that's that project. That's an interesting change 00:08:14.990 --> 00:08:18.170 of change of career paths to go from being somebody 00:08:18.170 --> 00:08:21.170 who runs statistical models to somebody who's 00:08:21.170 --> 00:08:24.029 training people to do death investigations. You 00:08:24.029 --> 00:08:26.670 know, I would certainly not think of those as 00:08:26.670 --> 00:08:29.410 one leading to the other in a linear path. Five 00:08:29.410 --> 00:08:31.470 years earlier, if the fortune teller had told 00:08:31.470 --> 00:08:32.929 me I would have been there, I would have demanded 00:08:32.929 --> 00:08:37.929 my money back. And it came true. It sounds like 00:08:37.929 --> 00:08:39.590 a really exciting thing to do, though. I mean, 00:08:39.690 --> 00:08:42.470 before I ask Gabriel a question, I want to just 00:08:42.470 --> 00:08:44.210 have one quick follow -up question with you about 00:08:44.210 --> 00:08:46.809 this, which is, how was this received, especially 00:08:46.809 --> 00:08:49.230 I'm thinking about in Utah, where I think of 00:08:49.230 --> 00:08:53.649 that as a much more conservative state than California 00:08:53.649 --> 00:08:55.309 and death investigators in Los Angeles, and just 00:08:55.309 --> 00:08:57.330 thinking about what was it like to work with 00:08:57.330 --> 00:09:00.570 people asking them to now be probing about people's 00:09:00.570 --> 00:09:03.009 sexual and gender identity when they had not 00:09:03.009 --> 00:09:05.159 been doing that before? Yeah, for sure. I think 00:09:05.159 --> 00:09:10.039 the main thing about this was this was not political 00:09:10.039 --> 00:09:15.399 work. This was about the work of getting data 00:09:15.399 --> 00:09:19.059 that's important to a public health end. The 00:09:19.059 --> 00:09:21.139 death investigators, their jobs, they have one 00:09:21.139 --> 00:09:23.639 of the hardest jobs on earth. I shadowed death 00:09:23.639 --> 00:09:25.779 investigators here in LA County. They go to scenes 00:09:25.779 --> 00:09:29.700 that are grisly and grim, to put it nicely. Sometimes 00:09:29.700 --> 00:09:32.840 these scenes are literally unstable. And their 00:09:32.840 --> 00:09:35.539 job is to, you know, recover and process the 00:09:35.539 --> 00:09:37.580 body, document evidence at the scene and talk 00:09:37.580 --> 00:09:41.240 to next of kin. This is not a job for the light 00:09:41.240 --> 00:09:43.600 hearted, but this is where these public health 00:09:43.600 --> 00:09:47.379 data start. And not enough of us understand. 00:09:47.679 --> 00:09:49.279 I think a lot of us don't have appreciation for 00:09:49.279 --> 00:09:51.600 it because we just didn't know. And so their 00:09:51.600 --> 00:09:54.059 jobs are hard and they ask people very personal 00:09:54.059 --> 00:09:58.500 questions. Next of kin, sometimes really personal 00:09:58.500 --> 00:10:00.700 things that sometimes next of kin didn't know. 00:10:01.899 --> 00:10:04.299 And they're delivering this to a person who just 00:10:04.299 --> 00:10:06.700 may have just found out that they this investigator 00:10:06.700 --> 00:10:08.320 is the one who's alerting them that their loved 00:10:08.320 --> 00:10:11.919 one has passed away. So in that regard, there's 00:10:11.919 --> 00:10:13.960 really no question that's off the table for them. 00:10:14.139 --> 00:10:16.100 They're already delivering the worst news possible. 00:10:16.159 --> 00:10:18.940 There's very little they can say to somebody 00:10:18.940 --> 00:10:21.200 that is going to be worse than the news they 00:10:21.200 --> 00:10:24.120 just delivered. The challenge was their conversation. 00:10:24.519 --> 00:10:27.350 They are not. data collectors in a traditional 00:10:27.350 --> 00:10:29.210 epic sense of I have a survey and I'm going to 00:10:29.210 --> 00:10:31.230 run through these questions. Sure, sure. They 00:10:31.230 --> 00:10:34.370 have to stoke a conversation. So it's, you know, 00:10:34.509 --> 00:10:37.370 running through this with them to identify ways 00:10:37.370 --> 00:10:39.850 that this can be brought into the conversation 00:10:39.850 --> 00:10:43.350 extremely naturally. It's just they need to know 00:10:43.350 --> 00:10:45.409 about the concepts and how to introduce them. 00:10:45.429 --> 00:10:47.590 So I think once we talked about that with them 00:10:47.590 --> 00:10:50.429 and ran through it with them and established 00:10:50.429 --> 00:10:53.350 that they are crucial to public health, I think 00:10:53.350 --> 00:10:56.159 that got people on a at a place where they understood 00:10:56.159 --> 00:10:57.980 the importance of the work and they understood 00:10:57.980 --> 00:11:00.679 that it was feasible and that this was not about 00:11:00.679 --> 00:11:03.820 anyone singular person's beliefs about what they 00:11:03.820 --> 00:11:05.460 thought about gay people, what they thought about 00:11:05.460 --> 00:11:09.580 trans people. It was rooted in we have a health 00:11:09.580 --> 00:11:13.679 problem and we need these data to inform that. 00:11:13.799 --> 00:11:16.879 You are in a very unique space to do that. They're 00:11:16.879 --> 00:11:20.059 tough questions, but that's the name of your 00:11:20.059 --> 00:11:22.960 gig is tough questions and tough news. So yeah. 00:11:23.049 --> 00:11:26.230 It was very cool. I imagine it was actually something 00:11:26.230 --> 00:11:28.929 fairly empowering for them in some regards as 00:11:28.929 --> 00:11:32.009 well, given the way you've described it. Gabriel, 00:11:32.269 --> 00:11:35.789 let me, as promised, maybe we can lighten things 00:11:35.789 --> 00:11:40.190 a little bit. But I know that you also deal with 00:11:40.190 --> 00:11:41.690 some very serious stuff, though, too. I don't 00:11:41.690 --> 00:11:45.289 mean to make light of, in any way, what you do. 00:11:45.610 --> 00:11:48.049 I know that you're very much interested in community 00:11:48.049 --> 00:11:51.179 cohesion. social support and how it is that people 00:11:51.179 --> 00:11:53.200 are accessing health care kind of born out of 00:11:53.200 --> 00:11:56.279 this experience of what's happening for folks 00:11:56.279 --> 00:11:58.340 and how do we create well -being in these communities. 00:11:58.700 --> 00:12:01.379 Can you talk about what you've been working on 00:12:01.379 --> 00:12:04.500 recently? Yeah, so one of the things that I like 00:12:04.500 --> 00:12:09.539 to talk about is, of course, you know, as a field, 00:12:10.679 --> 00:12:13.340 we are, to some extent, we're well -versed in 00:12:13.340 --> 00:12:17.360 kind of intersectionality. And as Kimberly Crenshaw 00:12:17.360 --> 00:12:20.389 describes it, like, these intersecting roads 00:12:20.389 --> 00:12:23.710 of oppression, or the systemic forces that kind 00:12:23.710 --> 00:12:27.070 of interact and like reinforce each other. But 00:12:27.070 --> 00:12:29.830 with that, or along those lines, I also want 00:12:29.830 --> 00:12:32.990 to look at kind of how people belong to multiple 00:12:32.990 --> 00:12:37.029 communities. They're likely drawing from various 00:12:37.029 --> 00:12:38.929 strengths from each of each of the communities 00:12:38.929 --> 00:12:42.529 they belong to. I do a lot of my work with racialized 00:12:42.529 --> 00:12:46.110 minorities who are in the LGBTQ community, specifically 00:12:46.110 --> 00:12:49.230 Latino, you know, gay, bisexual, and other queer 00:12:49.230 --> 00:12:53.389 men. And so we're often kind of embedded and 00:12:53.389 --> 00:12:56.929 I say we because I identify as part of that community. 00:12:57.850 --> 00:13:00.830 We're often embedded in, you know, at least the 00:13:00.830 --> 00:13:03.850 Latino community. And so that community comes 00:13:03.850 --> 00:13:06.350 with lots of sources of strengths and, you know, 00:13:06.350 --> 00:13:09.809 things that can help us be resilient in our daily 00:13:09.809 --> 00:13:12.870 lives. And some of us are also kind of connected 00:13:12.870 --> 00:13:16.830 to the LGBTQ kind of broadly speaking. And those 00:13:16.830 --> 00:13:19.570 in that community kind of has this, you know, 00:13:19.850 --> 00:13:22.750 history of advocacy, this history of kind of, 00:13:22.750 --> 00:13:25.789 you know, you know, being out there and in the 00:13:25.789 --> 00:13:27.950 front lines trying to, you know, fight for what's 00:13:27.950 --> 00:13:31.480 right. And so you know, at people who belong 00:13:31.480 --> 00:13:33.539 to both communities, I think that we can kind 00:13:33.539 --> 00:13:35.860 of draw upon, you know, various strengths and 00:13:35.860 --> 00:13:39.480 kind of build one kind of cohesive, you know, 00:13:39.519 --> 00:13:41.440 life or one cohesive community where we can kind 00:13:41.440 --> 00:13:43.779 of all, you know, work together collectively. 00:13:44.320 --> 00:13:46.240 Sure. I mean, are there other challenges though 00:13:46.240 --> 00:13:48.639 there as well? I mean, I would imagine that there's 00:13:48.639 --> 00:13:51.250 some ways in which the I don't know, the idealized, 00:13:51.389 --> 00:13:56.610 the archetypical Latino man and the stereotypes 00:13:56.610 --> 00:13:59.090 in the gay community. I mean, those things don't 00:13:59.090 --> 00:14:03.509 necessarily go as easily as the mutual strengths 00:14:03.509 --> 00:14:06.470 you were just talking about, right? Right. Exactly. 00:14:07.049 --> 00:14:10.070 So for example, I've done some work on machismo. 00:14:11.470 --> 00:14:14.750 So, you know, people just report that, oh, if 00:14:14.750 --> 00:14:17.549 I'm going to be a part of the Latino community, 00:14:17.769 --> 00:14:20.610 I might not be as accepted as I would be if I 00:14:20.610 --> 00:14:22.950 were kind of interacting with people in the LGBTQ 00:14:22.950 --> 00:14:27.470 space. And so that kind of leads us to like, 00:14:28.110 --> 00:14:31.870 where is the work and where do we need to do 00:14:31.870 --> 00:14:35.250 the work? Is it that we need to really make spaces 00:14:35.250 --> 00:14:38.460 that are, you know, historically Latino? more 00:14:38.460 --> 00:14:42.360 inclusive of LGBTQ individuals? Or is it the 00:14:42.360 --> 00:14:46.100 inverse in which we're making LGBTQ spaces more 00:14:46.100 --> 00:14:49.620 inclusive of racialized minorities? My answer 00:14:49.620 --> 00:14:51.399 is always like, we need to be doing the work. 00:14:51.549 --> 00:14:54.090 you know, in tandem together at the same time, 00:14:54.370 --> 00:14:56.730 because we can't kind of prioritize one experience 00:14:56.730 --> 00:14:59.889 over the other. Because it may be that today, 00:15:00.149 --> 00:15:02.149 you know, on this specific day, I'm interacting 00:15:02.149 --> 00:15:04.110 with the Latino community, but it may be later 00:15:04.110 --> 00:15:06.629 on tonight, I'm interacting with the LGBTQ community. 00:15:06.649 --> 00:15:10.110 So there really isn't this, you know, separate 00:15:10.110 --> 00:15:13.149 or the separation that we kind of find in research 00:15:13.149 --> 00:15:15.850 or in these data sets. It's very complex and 00:15:15.850 --> 00:15:19.230 it's kind of together. Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's 00:15:19.230 --> 00:15:21.490 interesting you say the separation in these data 00:15:21.490 --> 00:15:23.750 sets, right? I think, I mean, maybe even in the 00:15:23.750 --> 00:15:25.570 data, there's not necessarily the separation. 00:15:25.570 --> 00:15:27.809 We just like to have these very separate concepts 00:15:27.809 --> 00:15:32.250 in research dialogues. And at least in my experience, 00:15:32.250 --> 00:15:34.610 I don't think that that necessarily, as you suggest, 00:15:34.809 --> 00:15:37.590 jives with people's reality, right? I mean, people's 00:15:37.590 --> 00:15:41.529 reality is much more nuanced, complex. It's fluid. 00:15:41.809 --> 00:15:44.250 It moves, you know, changes from moment to moment 00:15:44.250 --> 00:15:47.950 during the day sometimes. And I think that doesn't 00:15:47.950 --> 00:15:50.370 necessarily lend itself to statistical models 00:15:50.370 --> 00:15:53.950 in the easiest of ways, but it certainly is the 00:15:53.950 --> 00:15:58.850 reality of our lives. So John had mentioned his 00:15:58.850 --> 00:16:01.049 focus being on suicide and suicide prevention. 00:16:01.769 --> 00:16:05.350 What are some of the issues for this population 00:16:05.350 --> 00:16:10.649 of Latino, you know, LGBTQ men that you're interested 00:16:10.649 --> 00:16:15.190 in working on? So I primarily, you know, as we're 00:16:15.190 --> 00:16:17.110 talking about research, you know, researchers 00:16:17.110 --> 00:16:18.789 often ask, well, what's the outcome of interest? 00:16:19.090 --> 00:16:21.750 And my outcome of interest is kind of accessing 00:16:21.750 --> 00:16:25.049 health care services. OK, there's a history in 00:16:25.049 --> 00:16:28.490 the LGBTQ space that, you know, when we look 00:16:28.490 --> 00:16:31.259 at health care access, we look at sexual health 00:16:31.259 --> 00:16:34.240 care access. And I do think that's very important. 00:16:34.539 --> 00:16:36.779 That's extremely important. It's, you know, it's 00:16:36.779 --> 00:16:39.720 a salient need and we need that. I also think 00:16:39.720 --> 00:16:41.899 that we can think broader than that. We can start 00:16:41.899 --> 00:16:44.700 to think about how we can start to access preventative 00:16:44.700 --> 00:16:47.700 services, primary care services, and how can 00:16:47.700 --> 00:16:51.980 we kind of integrate this idea of being inclusive 00:16:51.980 --> 00:16:56.179 to both Latino and LGBTQ people in one space. 00:16:56.419 --> 00:17:00.379 And I think the clinic could be a space where 00:17:00.379 --> 00:17:03.220 we can do that or we can begin that work and 00:17:03.220 --> 00:17:07.519 ultimately, you know, make communities, I guess, 00:17:07.740 --> 00:17:11.960 healthier again, I know, right? I think that 00:17:12.089 --> 00:17:16.049 focus, I've certainly done some research on within 00:17:16.049 --> 00:17:18.410 the work that I've done with homeless young adults 00:17:18.410 --> 00:17:22.049 around some of the issues that face LGBT communities 00:17:22.049 --> 00:17:24.170 within that space. And you're right. I mean, 00:17:24.190 --> 00:17:26.549 oftentimes some of the research and even advocacy 00:17:26.549 --> 00:17:29.349 work was around sexual health. And that's only 00:17:29.349 --> 00:17:31.369 part of people's lives. And honestly, when I 00:17:31.369 --> 00:17:33.930 do work in those communities, those young people 00:17:33.930 --> 00:17:37.539 are much more concerned about their You know, 00:17:37.579 --> 00:17:39.640 there's their safety for the night or they're 00:17:39.640 --> 00:17:40.920 concerned about where they can get some of the 00:17:40.920 --> 00:17:42.720 e there Maybe if they've got a health concern, 00:17:42.720 --> 00:17:44.539 it's more about, you know, their mental health 00:17:44.539 --> 00:17:47.400 maybe or even the fact that they've got an infection 00:17:47.400 --> 00:17:49.180 They're there, you know, and by infection. I 00:17:49.180 --> 00:17:50.799 don't mean like a sexually transmitted infection 00:17:50.799 --> 00:17:53.259 I mean, you know, they they like cut themselves 00:17:53.259 --> 00:17:55.759 and now they've got a big, you know infected 00:17:55.759 --> 00:17:58.079 boil on their on their leg and they're not really 00:17:58.079 --> 00:18:01.160 in sexual health is is an important thing which 00:18:01.160 --> 00:18:03.980 I think maybe easily tracks on to those communities, 00:18:04.039 --> 00:18:06.500 but people are so much more than that. That's 00:18:06.500 --> 00:18:07.880 one of the things I love about your research, 00:18:07.980 --> 00:18:10.900 and John's too, is that it's a much more holistic 00:18:10.900 --> 00:18:14.559 vision of people. It's not just trying to pigeonhole 00:18:14.559 --> 00:18:17.119 sexual and gender minority folks around their 00:18:17.119 --> 00:18:21.180 sex lives. I mean, I think that that's so limiting 00:18:21.180 --> 00:18:25.460 in some respects. And thinking about why do people 00:18:25.460 --> 00:18:27.880 live healthy, thriving lives, or why do people 00:18:27.880 --> 00:18:29.619 end their lives when they're not having health 00:18:29.619 --> 00:18:33.619 and thriving is really fascinating. I want to 00:18:33.619 --> 00:18:38.579 touch on the way in which some of the recent 00:18:38.579 --> 00:18:42.000 federal decisions around research initiatives 00:18:42.000 --> 00:18:44.670 have impacted research and I know that John, 00:18:45.069 --> 00:18:49.529 you had a grant that was focused on parents who 00:18:49.529 --> 00:18:52.410 had a child who was a sexual minority that had 00:18:52.410 --> 00:18:54.529 come out and about how they were coping with 00:18:54.529 --> 00:18:57.430 that experience that was defunded and then perhaps 00:18:57.430 --> 00:19:00.069 reinstated. And I'm kind of wondering if you 00:19:00.069 --> 00:19:01.730 can share with folks a little bit about what 00:19:01.730 --> 00:19:03.650 that research was about, why you thought it was 00:19:03.650 --> 00:19:05.490 important, and also maybe some of your thoughts 00:19:05.490 --> 00:19:08.910 about the future of that kind of work. Yeah, 00:19:08.910 --> 00:19:14.630 absolutely. So the grant was focused on like 00:19:14.630 --> 00:19:16.829 you said, parents who had a child come out to 00:19:16.829 --> 00:19:20.450 them about sexual orientation. This project did 00:19:20.450 --> 00:19:23.750 not involve gender identity. It was terminated 00:19:23.750 --> 00:19:26.910 by the NIH citing that it was focused on gender 00:19:26.910 --> 00:19:29.529 identity, which was patently false. That was 00:19:29.529 --> 00:19:34.769 not part of the grant at all. But the impetus 00:19:34.769 --> 00:19:37.890 for the grant was really taking an upstream approach 00:19:37.890 --> 00:19:42.450 to suicide prevention for sexual minority youth, 00:19:42.650 --> 00:19:44.950 who we know have very high rates of suicidal 00:19:44.950 --> 00:19:47.730 ideation and attempts. But because when I talked 00:19:47.730 --> 00:19:49.549 about our other project, we don't have any idea 00:19:49.549 --> 00:19:51.809 if suicide deaths are greater in this group. 00:19:51.910 --> 00:19:53.609 But we know enough to know that ideation and 00:19:53.609 --> 00:19:57.049 attempt are massive problems for youth who identify 00:19:57.049 --> 00:20:00.109 as sexual minority. But we wanted to take a family 00:20:00.109 --> 00:20:03.819 systems approach because research consistently 00:20:03.819 --> 00:20:06.680 demonstrates that family rejection is a major 00:20:06.680 --> 00:20:09.640 predictor of mental distress among sexual and 00:20:09.640 --> 00:20:11.880 gender or sexual minority youth. You know, naturally 00:20:11.880 --> 00:20:14.079 we're like, it's really, we want to know more 00:20:14.079 --> 00:20:17.599 about parents. You know, so when a kid comes 00:20:17.599 --> 00:20:21.279 out, you know, parents are a cornerstone of a 00:20:21.279 --> 00:20:23.819 family unit and parents need to figure out how 00:20:23.819 --> 00:20:26.279 they sort of guide and manage their families. 00:20:26.740 --> 00:20:28.920 And when a kid comes out, that's a family system 00:20:28.920 --> 00:20:32.799 change for sure. but we don't know what parents 00:20:32.799 --> 00:20:35.460 need or how they navigate that family system 00:20:35.460 --> 00:20:37.980 change. The lore is kind of, you know, well, 00:20:37.980 --> 00:20:40.019 if a parent doesn't automatically sign up to 00:20:40.019 --> 00:20:42.160 be the marshal of the pride parade, they're awful, 00:20:42.440 --> 00:20:44.640 right? Parents just love their kids unconditionally. 00:20:45.160 --> 00:20:48.920 And many parents do. But parents are afraid for 00:20:48.920 --> 00:20:51.779 their children for, ironically, the very reasons 00:20:51.779 --> 00:20:54.480 why our grant was terminated. A kid who comes 00:20:54.480 --> 00:20:57.440 out for a parent who's not a sexual minority, 00:20:57.859 --> 00:20:59.579 they Their understanding is their kid's going 00:20:59.579 --> 00:21:03.799 to have a very different time in life, which 00:21:03.799 --> 00:21:05.720 frankly is going to be a tougher time in life 00:21:05.720 --> 00:21:07.920 than if their kid was straight. And a lot of 00:21:07.920 --> 00:21:09.619 parents react poorly because they're just afraid 00:21:09.619 --> 00:21:12.599 for their child. But ultimately, the literature 00:21:12.599 --> 00:21:14.759 does not know where parents go for help, what 00:21:14.759 --> 00:21:16.619 they consult. Do they just Google what to do? 00:21:16.720 --> 00:21:19.940 Do they go visit clergy, religious leaders, medical 00:21:19.940 --> 00:21:22.539 professionals? Do they not talk about it at all? 00:21:22.779 --> 00:21:24.740 And what do they need to get through this? Because 00:21:24.740 --> 00:21:27.259 most families will get through this. But that's 00:21:27.259 --> 00:21:29.339 what we wanted to focus on was surveying and 00:21:29.339 --> 00:21:31.759 interviewing parents. And this is not an easy 00:21:31.759 --> 00:21:35.019 group to find. Right? Folks who are going to, 00:21:35.059 --> 00:21:38.579 you know, who are parents of the person who identifies 00:21:38.579 --> 00:21:41.079 as a section of the minority person, right? So 00:21:41.079 --> 00:21:43.220 this research really digging into how do we find 00:21:43.220 --> 00:21:45.299 them? And when we find them, you know, we have 00:21:45.299 --> 00:21:47.559 a lot of questions we need to ask both in a survey 00:21:47.559 --> 00:21:50.539 and then getting more detailed information from 00:21:50.539 --> 00:21:52.619 them from folks who would agree to do an interview 00:21:52.619 --> 00:21:55.700 with us. So that grant was terminated. It was 00:21:55.700 --> 00:21:58.640 reinstated in July. We've been working on it, 00:21:58.960 --> 00:22:01.319 resuming work on it as best we can with that 00:22:01.319 --> 00:22:05.619 kind of a disruption to it. Sure. But yeah, so 00:22:05.619 --> 00:22:07.920 that's where that project currently stands. I 00:22:07.920 --> 00:22:09.819 want to get really nerdy with you for just a 00:22:09.819 --> 00:22:12.019 second here. Forgive me for this, but I can't 00:22:12.019 --> 00:22:14.859 help myself. You know, you said, how do we find 00:22:14.859 --> 00:22:17.480 these parents? It makes me think that I guess 00:22:17.480 --> 00:22:21.559 my assumption would be that the two places you 00:22:21.559 --> 00:22:24.680 might find parents are in some space where they're 00:22:24.680 --> 00:22:29.319 being a very loud positive advocate for their 00:22:29.319 --> 00:22:31.819 child that's come out, or perhaps they're being 00:22:31.819 --> 00:22:36.480 a very loud decryer of their child's coming out. 00:22:36.619 --> 00:22:40.180 And I wonder you know, what you're how you're 00:22:40.180 --> 00:22:41.819 trying to deal with, not just trying to find 00:22:41.819 --> 00:22:44.200 the extreme cases. Right. Because I mean, I think 00:22:44.200 --> 00:22:46.480 that those are the the visible folks, the people 00:22:46.480 --> 00:22:48.259 that are very upset about it or the people that 00:22:48.259 --> 00:22:51.539 are very welcoming or proud of it. And I would 00:22:51.539 --> 00:22:53.640 imagine there's a lot there's a lot in between. 00:22:53.799 --> 00:22:57.440 Right. Maybe there is. And we really want the 00:22:57.440 --> 00:22:59.720 between. Right. You don't want the outliers necessarily. 00:22:59.900 --> 00:23:02.680 I mean, they'll be there. But our main component 00:23:02.680 --> 00:23:07.220 is, you know, and this is sort of survey recruitment 00:23:07.220 --> 00:23:11.460 nightmare slash experiment 101 was being able 00:23:11.460 --> 00:23:15.019 to target large enough samples where we could 00:23:15.019 --> 00:23:18.980 find the baseline inclusion criteria is, are 00:23:18.980 --> 00:23:22.380 you a parent? The stepwise thing of, are you 00:23:22.380 --> 00:23:26.720 a parent? And then, you know, do you have a child 00:23:26.720 --> 00:23:29.000 who identifies or is coming? So it's sort of, 00:23:29.099 --> 00:23:31.240 we're starting at that umbrella level, trying 00:23:31.240 --> 00:23:34.359 to find them. So we're using very large level 00:23:35.100 --> 00:23:39.319 recruitment avenues. So research match is a resource 00:23:39.319 --> 00:23:42.279 developed by NIH of individuals who have opted 00:23:42.279 --> 00:23:45.819 in to basically volunteering for research projects. 00:23:46.559 --> 00:23:48.640 The inclusion criteria is not that you want to 00:23:48.640 --> 00:23:51.720 do this because of any number of things in your 00:23:51.720 --> 00:23:53.920 characteristics that make you who you are. It's 00:23:53.920 --> 00:23:55.440 just you have an interest in being in research 00:23:55.440 --> 00:23:58.559 and then you get this kind of newsletter that 00:23:58.559 --> 00:24:00.539 shows you all these different opportunities and 00:24:00.539 --> 00:24:04.500 you can opt into it. Gabriel, I'm wondering if 00:24:04.500 --> 00:24:07.299 you wanted to talk a little bit about some of 00:24:07.299 --> 00:24:10.240 the sampling or some of the research strategies 00:24:10.240 --> 00:24:11.700 that you've been employing recently, because 00:24:11.700 --> 00:24:12.920 I think it's really interesting to hear from 00:24:12.920 --> 00:24:15.420 John about the death investigators and about 00:24:15.420 --> 00:24:18.180 trying to reach these samples. But I mean, where 00:24:18.180 --> 00:24:22.039 have you been targeting the actual time that 00:24:22.039 --> 00:24:24.019 you spend in the day working with these folks 00:24:24.019 --> 00:24:27.460 recently? So one of the things that I want to, 00:24:27.460 --> 00:24:30.000 I guess, be clear and give credit to is that 00:24:30.140 --> 00:24:36.579 I work with a group of kind of men, like gay, 00:24:36.759 --> 00:24:39.539 bisexual, and other queer men, kind of throughout 00:24:39.539 --> 00:24:43.680 the United States. When I first started here 00:24:43.680 --> 00:24:48.339 at USC, I was trying to create some type of community 00:24:48.339 --> 00:24:51.099 group or advisory group. And so I kind of recruited 00:24:51.099 --> 00:24:54.740 on social media. Is anybody willing to work with 00:24:54.740 --> 00:24:57.640 me? We can work on projects together. And so 00:24:57.640 --> 00:24:59.920 several men did. They signed up, they emailed 00:24:59.920 --> 00:25:01.519 me and they were like, oh, yeah, I'm interested 00:25:01.519 --> 00:25:03.400 in like, you know, giving I'll give you some 00:25:03.400 --> 00:25:05.539 of my thoughts and like where we can go as kind 00:25:05.539 --> 00:25:11.539 of as a field. And so one thing that I I personally 00:25:11.539 --> 00:25:15.240 implemented first was this social media kind 00:25:15.240 --> 00:25:18.059 of recruitment. Let's recruit, you know, Latino 00:25:18.059 --> 00:25:23.559 gay men on social media. And things became a 00:25:23.559 --> 00:25:27.830 little complex once the election happened. and 00:25:27.830 --> 00:25:30.789 nobody was kind of signing up. And then it was 00:25:30.789 --> 00:25:34.410 like, I don't want to give up or let you know 00:25:34.410 --> 00:25:38.529 what some of my demographic information is. And 00:25:38.529 --> 00:25:42.130 so I went back to the community advisory group 00:25:42.130 --> 00:25:47.309 that we formed and they were like, yeah, we are 00:25:47.309 --> 00:25:49.730 literally, this is happening in our communities. 00:25:49.789 --> 00:25:52.509 This is happening at our clinics, at our CBOs. 00:25:52.670 --> 00:25:56.799 Nobody wants to come. come in for any service. 00:25:56.900 --> 00:25:59.640 Nobody wants to come in and fill out any intake 00:25:59.640 --> 00:26:03.640 form. Wow. And so one of the things that they 00:26:03.640 --> 00:26:05.700 recommended and you know, I'm really grateful 00:26:05.700 --> 00:26:08.299 that they did is that I work with community organizations 00:26:08.299 --> 00:26:11.759 directly because each community organization 00:26:11.759 --> 00:26:16.220 is kind of finding out is tailoring the recruitment 00:26:16.220 --> 00:26:19.119 methods that is good and appropriate for their 00:26:19.119 --> 00:26:22.049 own community. And so that's kind of how I've 00:26:22.049 --> 00:26:25.309 been working with these participants of the studies 00:26:25.309 --> 00:26:27.670 is let me connect with organizations throughout 00:26:27.670 --> 00:26:30.950 the United States. One of the things that we 00:26:30.950 --> 00:26:33.690 saw was, you know, depending on which community 00:26:33.690 --> 00:26:37.390 you're in, you know, some Latino gay men are 00:26:37.390 --> 00:26:40.589 receiving all the services. But if you're you 00:26:40.589 --> 00:26:43.230 happen to be in a community that is not, you 00:26:43.230 --> 00:26:46.009 know, where health is and kind of at the forefront 00:26:46.009 --> 00:26:48.269 of their community, they may not be receiving 00:26:48.269 --> 00:26:50.680 services at all. I mean, it just depends on what 00:26:50.680 --> 00:26:53.980 the priorities are. Are these community organizations 00:26:53.980 --> 00:26:56.279 mostly health organizations, or are they mostly 00:26:56.279 --> 00:27:02.500 organizations for gay, bisexual, queer men? So 00:27:02.500 --> 00:27:07.119 they're for gay, bisexual, and queer men. They're 00:27:07.119 --> 00:27:10.440 specifically ones that are working with the Latino 00:27:10.440 --> 00:27:15.559 communities. Oh, OK. And so often, these organizations, 00:27:15.660 --> 00:27:19.079 they fill the gaps. that the broader health care 00:27:19.079 --> 00:27:21.400 system is not meeting. And so what it means is 00:27:21.400 --> 00:27:23.339 that they integrate services. It's mental health 00:27:23.339 --> 00:27:26.099 services. It's, you know, primary care services. 00:27:26.279 --> 00:27:28.519 As we mentioned, it's sexual health services. 00:27:29.319 --> 00:27:32.700 Often, they're just providing a space for kind 00:27:32.700 --> 00:27:34.940 of social well -being. No, that's great. And 00:27:34.940 --> 00:27:37.920 I think the way that you just mentioned this 00:27:37.920 --> 00:27:40.500 community advisory board helping you think through 00:27:40.500 --> 00:27:44.259 the future of research, this is... I think how 00:27:44.259 --> 00:27:47.160 I wanna lead us out of this conversation, which 00:27:47.160 --> 00:27:51.099 is to ask both of you what you are envisioning 00:27:51.099 --> 00:27:55.500 over the next few years as being important avenues 00:27:55.500 --> 00:27:58.500 for research to work with the health and wellbeing 00:27:58.500 --> 00:28:01.059 of the communities that you each are a part of. 00:28:01.460 --> 00:28:05.019 So maybe I'll turn to you, John, first and then 00:28:05.019 --> 00:28:06.940 end with you, Gabriel, about what you think is 00:28:06.940 --> 00:28:09.900 an important direction for the research to move 00:28:09.900 --> 00:28:12.539 in in the next few years. Yeah, I think for me, 00:28:12.619 --> 00:28:16.359 I'm still in the space of vital statistics, especially 00:28:16.359 --> 00:28:20.480 around mortality data, to really understand the, 00:28:20.579 --> 00:28:24.519 from my perspective, the toll of inequity on 00:28:24.519 --> 00:28:27.759 populations. And these mortality data are key. 00:28:27.980 --> 00:28:30.019 I think we see this happening. Well, I mean, 00:28:30.099 --> 00:28:32.460 the case in point, what's happening with maternal 00:28:32.460 --> 00:28:36.099 mortality in the country now, in a post -Dobbs 00:28:36.099 --> 00:28:41.559 decision, America, where states that have banned 00:28:41.559 --> 00:28:45.519 abortion care are seeing increases in rates of 00:28:45.519 --> 00:28:48.720 maternal mortality. And that's only known to 00:28:48.720 --> 00:28:52.160 us because we count, we collect this information 00:28:52.160 --> 00:28:54.059 and we count this information at the time of 00:28:54.059 --> 00:28:57.420 death. And that is absolutely crucial to knowing 00:28:57.420 --> 00:29:00.359 again where interventions should be placed, but 00:29:00.359 --> 00:29:03.539 also holding people and policymakers accountable 00:29:03.539 --> 00:29:07.279 for decisions that they made. So I am all about 00:29:07.279 --> 00:29:11.029 finding ways to enhance our mortality. information 00:29:11.029 --> 00:29:13.750 because I just think that's the that is a bedrock 00:29:13.750 --> 00:29:17.269 of our our public health and it's if we don't 00:29:17.269 --> 00:29:20.329 have it inclusive of our communities we're not 00:29:20.329 --> 00:29:23.190 understanding the full toll of what's going on. 00:29:23.490 --> 00:29:27.490 So well put. Gabriel? Along the lines with inclusive 00:29:27.490 --> 00:29:31.779 inclusivity I think that the future of research 00:29:31.779 --> 00:29:35.579 in this area is how can we make every healthcare 00:29:35.579 --> 00:29:39.200 setting kind of inclusive to people so that the 00:29:39.200 --> 00:29:42.819 burden isn't on the community member, on the 00:29:42.819 --> 00:29:45.519 queer man to figure out, okay, if I need primary 00:29:45.519 --> 00:29:47.940 care services, let me see if I can find someone 00:29:47.940 --> 00:29:50.319 who can provide services that is specifically 00:29:50.319 --> 00:29:54.440 tailored to me. But if I want to go to a place, 00:29:54.619 --> 00:29:56.259 doesn't matter where it is, I should be able 00:29:56.259 --> 00:29:59.650 to do so. and make sure that the staff and the 00:29:59.650 --> 00:30:02.089 health care providers are providing services 00:30:02.089 --> 00:30:05.190 that are not only scientifically sound, but that 00:30:05.190 --> 00:30:07.690 are socially and culturally appropriate. So I 00:30:07.690 --> 00:30:09.710 think that that's kind of where we're headed, 00:30:10.230 --> 00:30:12.309 something that's a little more integrated. That's 00:30:12.309 --> 00:30:16.180 great. That's great. certainly hope that both 00:30:16.180 --> 00:30:20.119 of your agendas are things which we pursue in 00:30:20.119 --> 00:30:23.180 the near future. I think they're both absolutely 00:30:23.180 --> 00:30:25.920 needed. I just want to thank you, John and Gabriel, 00:30:25.920 --> 00:30:28.380 both for such a great discussion. So I hope that 00:30:28.380 --> 00:30:30.900 you will be willing to come back and share more 00:30:30.900 --> 00:30:32.500 with me in the future. I also want to commend 00:30:32.500 --> 00:30:36.599 the two of you on being in the center of research 00:30:36.599 --> 00:30:39.799 that is requiring people to be brave. And I really 00:30:39.799 --> 00:30:42.440 appreciate your bravery of doing work that you 00:30:42.440 --> 00:30:45.460 believe is important to and scientifically relevant, 00:30:45.799 --> 00:30:48.940 and I wholeheartedly support you and believe 00:30:48.940 --> 00:30:52.200 in its importance and scientific relevance. So 00:30:52.200 --> 00:30:54.460 in the meantime, if listeners are interested, 00:30:55.079 --> 00:30:58.619 they can check out more on our school's website 00:30:58.619 --> 00:31:00.819 where we have a lot of information about ongoing 00:31:00.819 --> 00:31:05.480 research. So you can go to dworakpeck .usc .edu 00:31:05.480 --> 00:31:07.940 to learn more about all the work that's going 00:31:07.940 --> 00:31:12.069 on. at our school around these topics. And if 00:31:12.069 --> 00:31:14.170 you have questions for our guests or for me about 00:31:14.170 --> 00:31:16.109 the show and you want to support the transformative 00:31:16.109 --> 00:31:19.269 research of our program, you can email us at 00:31:19.269 --> 00:31:24.069 listenuppeople at usc .edu. So that's L -I -S 00:31:24.069 --> 00:31:28.109 -T -E -N -U -P -P -E -O -P -L -E at usc .edu. 00:31:28.650 --> 00:31:31.849 And just one more time, John and Gabriel, thank 00:31:31.849 --> 00:31:34.329 you so much for spending your time with me and 00:31:34.329 --> 00:31:36.109 I hope our listeners enjoyed it as much as I 00:31:36.109 --> 00:31:39.539 did. you