WEBVTT 00:00:13.979 --> 00:00:17.219 Hello, and welcome to Listen Up People, a podcast 00:00:17.219 --> 00:00:20.199 of USC Suzanne Dworak-Peck School of Social Work. 00:00:20.620 --> 00:00:23.179 I'm Dr. Eric Rice, professor and associate dean 00:00:23.179 --> 00:00:26.800 for research. Homelessness is a serious issue 00:00:26.800 --> 00:00:29.620 affecting society, and it's also become a public 00:00:29.620 --> 00:00:32.579 health epidemic nationwide. For many people, 00:00:32.719 --> 00:00:35.259 the problem appears unsolvable and that the best 00:00:35.259 --> 00:00:37.719 that we can hope for is to mitigate it. But my 00:00:37.719 --> 00:00:40.420 guest today, unapologetically believe that it 00:00:40.420 --> 00:00:43.619 is within our reach to end homelessness. Their 00:00:43.619 --> 00:00:45.899 dedicated research and community partnership 00:00:45.899 --> 00:00:48.280 initiatives are proving a pathway forward for 00:00:48.280 --> 00:00:51.579 achieving that reality. Creating solutions to 00:00:51.579 --> 00:00:53.939 homelessness is also a focus of my own research, 00:00:53.939 --> 00:00:55.920 so I'm excited to delve into this issue with 00:00:55.920 --> 00:00:58.979 my two colleagues. Today I have Dr. Ben Henwood, 00:00:59.119 --> 00:01:01.439 who leads the Center for Homelessness, Housing 00:01:01.439 --> 00:01:05.079 and Health Equity Research, also known as H3E, 00:01:05.219 --> 00:01:09.329 and He is the director also of the USC Homelessness 00:01:09.329 --> 00:01:12.549 Policy Research Institute, also known as HPRI. 00:01:13.230 --> 00:01:15.790 And our second guest is Dr. Seth Pickens, who 00:01:15.790 --> 00:01:18.109 is the managing director of the Homelessness 00:01:18.109 --> 00:01:20.829 Policy Research Institute. Welcome to both of 00:01:20.829 --> 00:01:22.989 you. Great to be here. Thanks. Thanks for having 00:01:22.989 --> 00:01:28.079 me. Diving right into some meaty questions. I 00:01:28.079 --> 00:01:29.739 want to ask you something a little more personal 00:01:29.739 --> 00:01:33.359 to start which is Was there a moment in your 00:01:33.359 --> 00:01:36.519 life or in your career that was the moment where 00:01:36.519 --> 00:01:38.739 you said? Oh, this is this is the problem I want 00:01:38.739 --> 00:01:41.400 to work on homelessness is is is where it's at 00:01:41.400 --> 00:01:43.000 for me because I know you've devoted your careers 00:01:43.000 --> 00:01:45.719 to this at this point Yeah, sure. You know, I 00:01:45.719 --> 00:01:48.640 don't have that one moment that you're describing 00:01:48.640 --> 00:01:52.079 I mean, I think to me it was it was really a 00:01:52.079 --> 00:01:56.359 journey, you know where I was trying to find, 00:01:56.420 --> 00:01:59.319 you know, what is it that I'm passionate about? 00:01:59.819 --> 00:02:02.959 Homelessness is not really the thing that sort 00:02:02.959 --> 00:02:06.000 of came to mind. I think early on in my career 00:02:06.000 --> 00:02:09.819 as a social worker, I learned about this housing 00:02:09.819 --> 00:02:12.020 -first approach to homelessness. And what intrigued 00:02:12.020 --> 00:02:15.979 me about it was it was, at the time, this, like, 00:02:16.099 --> 00:02:19.979 novel concept that was counterintuitive. It was 00:02:19.979 --> 00:02:23.419 really flipping systems, flipping the script, 00:02:23.500 --> 00:02:25.960 really, of how we thought about homelessness 00:02:25.960 --> 00:02:30.639 services. And the research was just coming out 00:02:30.639 --> 00:02:33.180 at the time. This was in 2001 when I was in my 00:02:33.180 --> 00:02:37.580 master's program. And it was intriguing to me. 00:02:37.840 --> 00:02:44.210 And so I wanted to learn more about it. did my 00:02:44.210 --> 00:02:47.530 MSW placement in a housing first program that 00:02:47.530 --> 00:02:51.530 was doing the work. And I think just really seeing 00:02:51.530 --> 00:02:54.469 how transformational it could be to get people 00:02:54.469 --> 00:02:57.090 off the streets and into a safe environment, 00:02:57.270 --> 00:02:59.389 I think that was really the beginning for me 00:02:59.389 --> 00:03:02.479 of how it started. Yeah, that makes sense. Seeing 00:03:02.479 --> 00:03:05.240 those transformed lives is a powerful, powerful 00:03:05.240 --> 00:03:09.180 experience. Before I jump to Seth's answer, could 00:03:09.180 --> 00:03:11.520 you explain a little bit maybe what is this housing 00:03:11.520 --> 00:03:12.560 first thing you're talking about? You're talking 00:03:12.560 --> 00:03:14.460 about flipping the script and it's counterintuitive, 00:03:14.539 --> 00:03:16.659 but maybe our listeners are thinking, I don't 00:03:16.659 --> 00:03:18.960 even know what that means. Yeah, of course, of 00:03:18.960 --> 00:03:23.750 course. You know, I think for most people today, 00:03:24.389 --> 00:03:27.689 when we think about homelessness, you think about 00:03:27.689 --> 00:03:30.770 people living on the streets as if that is something 00:03:30.770 --> 00:03:34.009 that just is part and parcel to modern day life. 00:03:34.629 --> 00:03:36.710 But the truth is, it hasn't always been like 00:03:36.710 --> 00:03:40.710 this. This is a relatively historically recent 00:03:40.710 --> 00:03:44.009 phenomenon. And I can remember actually in fifth 00:03:44.009 --> 00:03:48.680 grade, having a classmate who was collecting 00:03:48.680 --> 00:03:51.180 blankets at the time. This was in Philadelphia. 00:03:52.460 --> 00:03:55.419 And Trevor, who was in our classmate, started 00:03:55.419 --> 00:03:58.479 the Trevor Project, not the one affiliated with 00:03:58.479 --> 00:04:00.599 suicide prevention that people know today, but 00:04:00.599 --> 00:04:04.039 this was in the 80s. And the reason he started 00:04:04.039 --> 00:04:06.400 that was because... That was the first time we 00:04:06.400 --> 00:04:08.819 were seeing people actually living on the streets. 00:04:09.020 --> 00:04:11.819 I mean, before that, yes, there was homelessness, 00:04:12.180 --> 00:04:14.500 housing, and stability, but not this sort of, 00:04:14.500 --> 00:04:17.699 you know, mass amount of people on our streets. 00:04:18.680 --> 00:04:20.819 And, you know, there's a historical reason for 00:04:20.819 --> 00:04:23.000 that that we can get into that has a lot to do 00:04:23.000 --> 00:04:26.399 with sort of this dismantling of the safety nets 00:04:26.399 --> 00:04:30.050 in our country during the Reagan era. There was 00:04:30.050 --> 00:04:33.930 a economic recession. There were demographic 00:04:33.930 --> 00:04:36.550 shifts. But all of this came together to really 00:04:36.550 --> 00:04:41.050 cause homelessness as we know it. today and you 00:04:41.050 --> 00:04:43.149 know we weren't society wasn't really set up 00:04:43.149 --> 00:04:46.290 to deal with this problem and so we were very 00:04:46.290 --> 00:04:49.230 reactive and we were reactive by you know what 00:04:49.230 --> 00:04:51.110 do we do what do we do with these people living 00:04:51.110 --> 00:04:54.170 on the streets and so shelters were really the 00:04:54.170 --> 00:04:56.949 the main way in which we try to address the problem 00:04:56.949 --> 00:05:00.589 right um and getting people off the streets and 00:05:00.589 --> 00:05:03.480 you know it's It's interesting because there 00:05:03.480 --> 00:05:05.819 was some really good research that was that was 00:05:05.819 --> 00:05:07.980 done by a colleague of ours Dennis Culhane at 00:05:07.980 --> 00:05:10.560 the University of Pennsylvania Who noticed you 00:05:10.560 --> 00:05:14.060 know this was? In the 80s that a lot of people 00:05:14.060 --> 00:05:17.259 would go to shelters that because of temporary 00:05:17.259 --> 00:05:20.399 disruptions in their life And then they after 00:05:20.399 --> 00:05:22.959 a short time less than 30 days they'd leave and 00:05:22.959 --> 00:05:26.279 they'd never come back, right? And yet, but he 00:05:26.279 --> 00:05:28.439 noticed there was another group of people that 00:05:28.439 --> 00:05:30.560 if they were there longer than 30 days, they 00:05:30.560 --> 00:05:33.560 often stayed there for a really long time, or 00:05:33.560 --> 00:05:35.800 maybe they'd exit, but they'd come back. And 00:05:35.800 --> 00:05:38.199 this was a group that we thought of as sort of 00:05:38.199 --> 00:05:40.959 the more chronically homeless. And they tended 00:05:40.959 --> 00:05:45.720 to have, you know, Increased rates of like mental 00:05:45.720 --> 00:05:49.699 illness and other disabilities And so as we struggle 00:05:49.699 --> 00:05:52.279 to like what do we do with these folks that are 00:05:52.279 --> 00:05:55.240 you know? Living in shelters ending up back on 00:05:55.240 --> 00:05:58.319 the streets. They'd get picked up in hospitals 00:05:58.319 --> 00:06:01.100 incarcerated Right, we didn't really know what 00:06:01.100 --> 00:06:03.839 to do. And we were really trying to push people 00:06:03.839 --> 00:06:06.699 into, you know, they need treatment for whether 00:06:06.699 --> 00:06:10.600 it's mental illness or addiction. And and that 00:06:10.600 --> 00:06:13.939 just wasn't working. It's what, you know, was 00:06:13.939 --> 00:06:17.620 coined by by Kim Hopper at the time as this institutional 00:06:17.620 --> 00:06:22.120 circuit. And housing first really came along 00:06:22.120 --> 00:06:25.459 in reaction to that. Right. And Sam's embarrassed 00:06:25.459 --> 00:06:27.680 who actually works works here at our school, 00:06:27.759 --> 00:06:32.079 at our center right now. He sort of created this 00:06:32.079 --> 00:06:35.540 model, which we now know as Housing First. But 00:06:35.540 --> 00:06:37.980 at the time, it was a very fringe idea, this 00:06:37.980 --> 00:06:40.920 idea that you would Target these individuals 00:06:40.920 --> 00:06:44.699 who had lots of issues and help them move into 00:06:44.699 --> 00:06:47.579 apartments hand them keys to an apartment that 00:06:47.579 --> 00:06:51.199 that was a very radical idea at the time. But 00:06:51.199 --> 00:06:53.800 the rationale was this is what people are asking 00:06:53.800 --> 00:06:56.019 for this is what they want and they're probably 00:06:56.019 --> 00:06:58.259 gonna be in a much better place to address all 00:06:58.259 --> 00:07:00.060 the problems they have if they actually have 00:07:00.060 --> 00:07:03.480 a stable safe secure place to live. Fortunately, 00:07:04.100 --> 00:07:08.339 Sam had the wherewithal when he was getting his 00:07:08.339 --> 00:07:11.720 program together, Pathways to Housing, to actually 00:07:11.720 --> 00:07:15.240 study the model. He even conducted a randomized 00:07:15.240 --> 00:07:18.259 control trial where people were randomly either 00:07:18.259 --> 00:07:20.639 selected to get housing first or to get that 00:07:20.639 --> 00:07:23.019 kind of usual care, which in hindsight we call 00:07:23.019 --> 00:07:25.560 treatment first. But there was never a treatment 00:07:25.560 --> 00:07:28.319 first model or design. That was sort of the default 00:07:28.319 --> 00:07:33.300 approach. And that research pretty much showed 00:07:33.300 --> 00:07:36.060 that when you get people into an apartment and 00:07:36.060 --> 00:07:40.660 you support them that housing stability goes 00:07:40.660 --> 00:07:42.839 a long way. And so we were seeing, you know, 00:07:42.939 --> 00:07:44.959 upwards of 80 % of people were successful in 00:07:44.959 --> 00:07:47.319 the housing first model, whereas the people, 00:07:47.360 --> 00:07:50.000 you know, in the treatment first approach, stayed 00:07:50.000 --> 00:07:52.660 on the streets in and out in and out of institutions 00:07:52.660 --> 00:07:55.899 for years. And so that's, you know, that's really 00:07:55.899 --> 00:07:57.939 what we talk about housing first. And, and I 00:07:57.939 --> 00:08:00.160 have to say, it's a it's a remarkable example 00:08:00.160 --> 00:08:05.879 of where Um, we had, you know This evidence -based 00:08:05.879 --> 00:08:09.240 practice research that actually influenced policy 00:08:09.240 --> 00:08:12.019 decisions because that initial research that 00:08:12.019 --> 00:08:17.000 came out. Um, I think the the The 2004 publication 00:08:17.000 --> 00:08:21.540 on housing first, um that that showed those results 00:08:22.720 --> 00:08:26.319 You know at 2010 housing first became national 00:08:26.319 --> 00:08:28.339 policy in terms of how you address homelessness 00:08:28.339 --> 00:08:32.340 so that that is a very short lifespan for you 00:08:32.340 --> 00:08:35.840 know research results to get. adopted as federal 00:08:35.840 --> 00:08:38.100 policy, which we sure I mean, there's that there's 00:08:38.100 --> 00:08:40.100 this joke about, you know, it usually takes well, 00:08:40.159 --> 00:08:42.120 not a joke. I mean, it's it's a sad reality that 00:08:42.120 --> 00:08:44.279 we bemoan in research, which is that it often 00:08:44.279 --> 00:08:48.519 takes 17 years to go from the bench to the bedside, 00:08:48.519 --> 00:08:50.639 as we like to say, within health research. So 00:08:50.639 --> 00:08:53.519 to go from, you know, six years from this publication 00:08:53.519 --> 00:08:58.059 to federal policy is incredibly fast in the slow 00:08:58.059 --> 00:09:01.299 moving time frame. And for those of you in the 00:09:01.299 --> 00:09:03.259 audience who who may think, wow, Ben knows a 00:09:03.259 --> 00:09:06.549 lot about this. Ben literally wrote the book 00:09:06.549 --> 00:09:09.730 on Housing First. There's a book that Samson 00:09:09.730 --> 00:09:12.750 Barris, Ben Henwood, and Deb Padgett wrote that 00:09:12.750 --> 00:09:15.710 is called Housing First, Ending Homelessness, 00:09:15.830 --> 00:09:19.110 Transforming Systems, and Changing Lives. So 00:09:19.110 --> 00:09:21.830 if you are thinking, wow, this guy seems to know 00:09:21.830 --> 00:09:26.009 a lot about this, he is... one of if not the 00:09:26.009 --> 00:09:30.850 world's expert in this approach. And before we 00:09:30.850 --> 00:09:33.450 dive deeper into that, because I know this is 00:09:33.450 --> 00:09:36.090 a rabbit hole that we could spend the entire 00:09:36.090 --> 00:09:40.450 time in, I wanna give Seth you a chance to chime 00:09:40.450 --> 00:09:42.809 in and talk about what was the experience that 00:09:42.809 --> 00:09:45.750 brought you into doing this work on housing and 00:09:45.750 --> 00:09:49.570 homelessness? Yeah, I think it's, like Ben said, 00:09:49.649 --> 00:09:53.409 I don't know if a thunderbolt went off that said, 00:09:53.610 --> 00:09:57.990 homelessness. But there was that kind of epiphany 00:09:57.990 --> 00:10:02.490 moment and for me my background is that I'm actually 00:10:02.490 --> 00:10:05.769 a pastor by training and I've been a senior pastor 00:10:05.769 --> 00:10:11.350 in South LA since 2009. So I got into it from 00:10:11.350 --> 00:10:16.210 that angle and homelessness was just one of the 00:10:16.210 --> 00:10:21.009 civic issues that we were seeing 10 -15 years 00:10:21.009 --> 00:10:24.039 ago. And, you know, they're running a food pantry, 00:10:24.500 --> 00:10:27.799 people even let someone sleep in my office, you 00:10:27.799 --> 00:10:30.000 know, like kind of pulling together money for 00:10:30.000 --> 00:10:32.399 hotel nights for people in a pinch for all sorts 00:10:32.399 --> 00:10:35.019 of different reasons. So that was really my baptism 00:10:35.019 --> 00:10:38.340 into it. And that was just one aspect of kind 00:10:38.340 --> 00:10:41.700 of the larger work. I think maybe that's part 00:10:41.700 --> 00:10:43.759 of the conversation. One of the things when we're 00:10:43.759 --> 00:10:45.820 talking about homelessness, we talk about silos, 00:10:45.820 --> 00:10:47.820 right? So there's like the political side, there's 00:10:47.820 --> 00:10:50.120 the real estate side, there's the researchers, 00:10:50.299 --> 00:10:53.419 there's the funders, right? And the faith community 00:10:53.419 --> 00:10:57.460 has is kind of its own silo. You know, and so 00:10:57.460 --> 00:11:00.059 it's operating and kind of doing well and intention, 00:11:00.179 --> 00:11:03.340 but there's a lot of very robust conversation 00:11:03.340 --> 00:11:07.679 that can in that silo breaking bring insight 00:11:07.679 --> 00:11:10.299 and maybe we'll talk more about some of those 00:11:10.299 --> 00:11:14.960 specifics. But as far as my own journey. Yeah, 00:11:15.039 --> 00:11:18.259 I got an opportunity with the economic roundtable 00:11:18.259 --> 00:11:22.419 to direct a project working with. Community college 00:11:22.419 --> 00:11:24.799 students, Long Beach City College at a high risk 00:11:24.799 --> 00:11:28.519 of persistent homelessness. And directed that 00:11:28.519 --> 00:11:31.440 project for 3 years and learned a lot about. 00:11:32.159 --> 00:11:35.559 Bringing research into play as well as like, 00:11:35.559 --> 00:11:38.019 we're running the program and evaluating it. 00:11:38.419 --> 00:11:39.980 Community college students at a high risk of 00:11:39.980 --> 00:11:44.059 persistent homelessness. If they get housing 00:11:44.059 --> 00:11:46.279 for solutions, and I didn't even know the term 00:11:46.279 --> 00:11:48.980 at the time, but essentially housing support 00:11:48.980 --> 00:11:52.809 with other. you know clinical and social service 00:11:52.809 --> 00:11:57.289 resources and expungement and all that then they'll 00:11:57.289 --> 00:12:00.889 be less likely to be homeless also with employment 00:12:00.889 --> 00:12:03.230 pathways so they can earn more income and be 00:12:03.230 --> 00:12:07.330 less likely to be homeless so yeah homeless community 00:12:07.330 --> 00:12:10.389 college students young adults here's what we 00:12:10.389 --> 00:12:12.710 do let's get them jobs now they're in the trade 00:12:12.710 --> 00:12:14.669 union now they're in health care now they're 00:12:14.669 --> 00:12:16.250 making money and they're not homeless anymore 00:12:16.399 --> 00:12:18.980 like that sounds like you know something doesn't 00:12:18.980 --> 00:12:21.059 sound like rocket science but it's remarkably 00:12:21.059 --> 00:12:23.179 difficult to do i am that's the point i was gonna 00:12:23.179 --> 00:12:24.659 say it sounds like something a researcher would 00:12:24.659 --> 00:12:26.700 come up with and like everyone's like it's brilliant 00:12:26.700 --> 00:12:31.200 right but then so the reality of course is that 00:12:31.200 --> 00:12:35.879 somewhere between there there's so much uh psycho 00:12:35.879 --> 00:12:39.539 socio emotional stuff just to put it briefly 00:12:39.539 --> 00:12:42.950 that it's like I'm homeless today. Now I have 00:12:42.950 --> 00:12:44.850 a good job. Now I'm not homeless. There's something 00:12:44.850 --> 00:12:46.870 in there. So that report last year was called 00:12:46.870 --> 00:12:52.070 the work behind work. And that has unfolded into 00:12:52.070 --> 00:12:56.090 this conversation around flourishing and our 00:12:56.090 --> 00:12:58.230 flourishing summit, September 11th. Maybe we'll 00:12:58.230 --> 00:13:02.230 talk more about that. But the idea that if that's 00:13:02.230 --> 00:13:06.070 the difficulty, then let's just look at that. 00:13:06.490 --> 00:13:08.330 And we were like, what was the most valuable 00:13:08.330 --> 00:13:10.850 part of this experience for them? And there were 00:13:10.850 --> 00:13:14.070 two things that were both like 86%. One was the 00:13:14.070 --> 00:13:17.450 money to have housing security and not be homeless. 00:13:17.450 --> 00:13:20.950 And the other was literally the moral support, 00:13:21.629 --> 00:13:24.570 the learning about mindfulness, the networking 00:13:24.570 --> 00:13:27.190 that they didn't have before, like all of these 00:13:27.190 --> 00:13:28.830 things that are sometimes considered softer. 00:13:29.090 --> 00:13:30.549 So we're like, how about if we literally just 00:13:30.549 --> 00:13:34.090 do that? So now with some of the work with Homelessness 00:13:34.090 --> 00:13:36.379 Policy Research Institute, And when opportunity 00:13:36.379 --> 00:13:39.360 comes to work with the guy who wrote the book 00:13:39.360 --> 00:13:43.620 on housing first, I mean, come on. So here I 00:13:43.620 --> 00:13:46.559 am. So one of the things we're doing is working 00:13:46.559 --> 00:13:48.220 with the Department of Health Services, which 00:13:48.220 --> 00:13:50.759 is rolling into this new county department this 00:13:50.759 --> 00:13:54.539 year, next year, looking at best practices. So 00:13:54.539 --> 00:13:56.559 we look at it. Okay. Permanent supportive housing. 00:13:56.620 --> 00:13:59.340 Guess what? Some things are going well, lack 00:13:59.340 --> 00:14:01.639 of collaboration, lack of accountability, lack 00:14:01.639 --> 00:14:06.200 of shared vision. is why it's not just working. 00:14:06.820 --> 00:14:10.639 So what if we literally look at that solve for 00:14:10.639 --> 00:14:12.720 collaboration? These are skills that can be taught. 00:14:13.039 --> 00:14:17.580 Accountability, trust is low, no shared vision. 00:14:18.100 --> 00:14:21.860 And so it's actually the same model that the 00:14:21.860 --> 00:14:24.080 homeless community college students need and 00:14:24.080 --> 00:14:28.379 the county managers and leaders and case managers 00:14:28.379 --> 00:14:32.870 and everyone. how you're actually doing, feeling, 00:14:33.429 --> 00:14:36.990 how you're working together, you know, is pretty 00:14:36.990 --> 00:14:39.769 important. And so sometimes the term flourishing 00:14:39.769 --> 00:14:42.669 gets like short shrift, but that's kind of the 00:14:42.669 --> 00:14:45.070 journey. And you can see how, you know, the faith 00:14:45.070 --> 00:14:47.230 journey kind of ties in with some of that too. 00:14:47.490 --> 00:14:50.590 Yeah, of course. Of course. It makes me think. 00:14:51.679 --> 00:14:54.759 With this Housing First and the way it enables 00:14:54.759 --> 00:14:57.899 people to flourish, you would think that, and 00:14:57.899 --> 00:15:00.279 the fact that there's this body of evidence that's 00:15:00.279 --> 00:15:03.940 been around for almost 20 years that impacted 00:15:03.940 --> 00:15:07.000 policy, you'd think that everyone would be on 00:15:07.000 --> 00:15:08.899 board with Housing First. But I certainly know 00:15:08.899 --> 00:15:13.059 from my own following of the media and also my 00:15:13.059 --> 00:15:15.980 own interactions with folks in the homelessness 00:15:15.980 --> 00:15:17.600 service sector community, that there's actually 00:15:17.600 --> 00:15:21.710 been a backlash against Housing First. I mean, 00:15:22.370 --> 00:15:25.570 Ben, maybe Seth, I mean, either one of you wanna 00:15:25.570 --> 00:15:28.450 address sort of what you've seen with respect 00:15:28.450 --> 00:15:32.450 to this turning, the tide seems to be, at least 00:15:32.450 --> 00:15:35.730 for a moment, the moment, there's a lot of skepticism 00:15:35.730 --> 00:15:38.450 about Housing First. I mean, there definitely 00:15:38.450 --> 00:15:40.830 is misinformation about what is and isn't Housing 00:15:40.830 --> 00:15:43.789 First, so we can talk about that, but I think 00:15:43.789 --> 00:15:46.690 at the end of the day, really people are frustrated. 00:15:47.070 --> 00:15:53.230 right, that this problem persists. Despite what 00:15:53.230 --> 00:15:56.590 are perceived as large investments, especially 00:15:56.590 --> 00:16:00.230 in Los Angeles, voters have voted to approve 00:16:00.230 --> 00:16:02.309 additional funding for this problem. And yet 00:16:02.309 --> 00:16:05.110 we know, in fact, we're involved in producing 00:16:05.110 --> 00:16:07.830 the estimates each year. We know over the past 00:16:07.830 --> 00:16:10.210 decade, the homeless population has doubled in 00:16:10.210 --> 00:16:13.570 Los Angeles. I think the refrain is, if Housing 00:16:13.570 --> 00:16:17.129 First was working, why is the homeless population 00:16:17.129 --> 00:16:21.110 growing right and and and so people are looking 00:16:21.110 --> 00:16:24.529 for someone to blame and and and i think housing 00:16:24.529 --> 00:16:27.110 first has become a sort of a victim of its own 00:16:27.110 --> 00:16:29.889 of its own success so to speak in that it's an 00:16:29.889 --> 00:16:32.289 easy target right it's an easy target to say 00:16:32.289 --> 00:16:35.529 that must not be working otherwise this problem 00:16:35.529 --> 00:16:38.590 would have been solved and you know the the truth 00:16:38.590 --> 00:16:43.769 is is that we've never really scaled housing 00:16:43.769 --> 00:16:47.149 first approach to the size of the problem, right? 00:16:48.269 --> 00:16:51.370 And the few instances where we've gotten close, 00:16:52.009 --> 00:16:55.149 we've seen dramatic reductions in homelessness. 00:16:55.269 --> 00:16:58.830 So I'm just going to sort of invoke the VA as 00:16:58.830 --> 00:17:02.039 a prime example. Sure, sure. I don't know if 00:17:02.039 --> 00:17:07.940 our listeners know, but back in 2014, let's say, 00:17:08.279 --> 00:17:11.019 when the VA adopted Housing First as its main 00:17:11.019 --> 00:17:14.759 approach, and Congress went ahead and approved 00:17:14.759 --> 00:17:17.920 appropriations funding to really support and 00:17:17.920 --> 00:17:21.319 scale that program, we saw veterans homelessness 00:17:21.319 --> 00:17:27.890 in less than a decade reduced by 50%. And that's 00:17:27.890 --> 00:17:30.789 an example of like, this is a problem that that 00:17:30.789 --> 00:17:34.990 can respond very well to resources when you have 00:17:34.990 --> 00:17:37.990 these effective solutions in place. And we saw 00:17:37.990 --> 00:17:40.450 that with the veterans in part because there's 00:17:40.450 --> 00:17:44.630 bipartisan support. People believe that veterans 00:17:44.630 --> 00:17:46.990 shouldn't be on the streets. And so we were willing 00:17:46.990 --> 00:17:50.309 to allocate resources. There's never really, 00:17:50.309 --> 00:17:53.269 you know, who is the VA for the rest of the for 00:17:53.269 --> 00:17:54.769 everyone else who's homeless, right? There's 00:17:54.769 --> 00:17:58.470 not there's never been a funding source uh that 00:17:58.470 --> 00:18:03.809 that that can really you know scale um the the 00:18:03.809 --> 00:18:06.910 solutions we know work to the to the size of 00:18:06.910 --> 00:18:09.170 the problem so anyway so that i mean i think 00:18:09.170 --> 00:18:13.089 that that makes that makes housing first an easy 00:18:13.089 --> 00:18:18.069 scapegoat when you know really the research and 00:18:18.069 --> 00:18:21.500 all the work that's been done we know that Lack 00:18:21.500 --> 00:18:25.579 of affordable housing is the main driver. Along 00:18:25.579 --> 00:18:28.099 with that are sort of all the other inequities 00:18:28.099 --> 00:18:30.759 that come along with who gets access to housing, 00:18:30.799 --> 00:18:34.180 who doesn't. That's the main driver. And, you 00:18:34.180 --> 00:18:39.079 know, I think more recently we've had a 180 on 00:18:39.079 --> 00:18:41.420 as much as I talked about Housing First becoming 00:18:41.420 --> 00:18:45.680 federal policy in 2010. As of this year, it is 00:18:45.680 --> 00:18:49.470 by decree executive order. People are not supposed 00:18:49.470 --> 00:18:52.349 to be doing housing first anymore and you know 00:18:52.349 --> 00:18:55.069 that that's unfortunate because that unlike the 00:18:55.069 --> 00:18:59.730 initial adoption of housing first that was driven 00:18:59.730 --> 00:19:03.930 by you know Empirical results. This is really 00:19:03.930 --> 00:19:07.230 driven by ideology at this point Yeah, no, it's 00:19:07.230 --> 00:19:08.650 it's interesting and I think you know the other 00:19:08.650 --> 00:19:12.250 thing that has struck me often is very ideological 00:19:12.250 --> 00:19:19.410 is the blaming of Housing programs that are home 00:19:19.410 --> 00:19:21.990 that are for people experiencing homelessness 00:19:21.990 --> 00:19:25.730 as being somehow responsible for why people are 00:19:25.730 --> 00:19:28.329 homeless and i've sometimes thought about it 00:19:28.329 --> 00:19:31.170 in the as an analogy to emergency rooms right 00:19:31.170 --> 00:19:34.720 like that when this would be like saying. Well, 00:19:35.099 --> 00:19:37.720 there's too many people. And the reason that 00:19:37.720 --> 00:19:39.539 there's so many people in the emergency room 00:19:39.539 --> 00:19:41.420 is because there's not enough emergency room 00:19:41.420 --> 00:19:43.720 doctors. It's like, no, people go to the emergency 00:19:43.720 --> 00:19:45.359 room because they get in car accidents or they 00:19:45.359 --> 00:19:48.319 have their appendix is about to burst or they've 00:19:48.319 --> 00:19:50.759 had some other situation happen that drives them 00:19:50.759 --> 00:19:53.059 to the emergency room. And yeah, there's some 00:19:53.059 --> 00:19:55.900 triaging and life saving stuff that happens in 00:19:55.900 --> 00:19:58.400 an emergency room. But the flow of people into 00:19:58.400 --> 00:20:00.339 that emergency room has nothing to do with the 00:20:00.339 --> 00:20:03.440 emergency room. And so, you know, housing first 00:20:03.440 --> 00:20:06.380 is an emergency response to a problem where someone 00:20:06.380 --> 00:20:10.099 has already become homeless. It's not a solution 00:20:10.099 --> 00:20:12.740 for preventing people from ever becoming homeless 00:20:12.740 --> 00:20:14.839 in the first place. And as you talked about these... 00:20:14.700 --> 00:20:17.279 problems of, you know, lack of affordable housing, 00:20:17.400 --> 00:20:19.559 especially in the major urban centers of the 00:20:19.559 --> 00:20:21.180 United States over the last while. I mean, there's 00:20:21.180 --> 00:20:22.759 another great book that's out there recently 00:20:22.759 --> 00:20:25.519 called, you know, Homelessness as a Housing Problem 00:20:25.519 --> 00:20:29.900 by a colleague of ours in Washington. And it's, 00:20:29.900 --> 00:20:31.299 you know, another one of these, as Seth, you'd 00:20:31.299 --> 00:20:33.000 say, like the sort of thing that only a researcher 00:20:33.000 --> 00:20:34.960 would say, right? Like housing is a homeless, 00:20:34.960 --> 00:20:36.980 you know, homelessness housing problem, like, 00:20:37.180 --> 00:20:41.839 no kidding. But sometimes the dialogue seems 00:20:41.839 --> 00:20:45.160 to get very caught up in ideology as opposed 00:20:45.160 --> 00:20:47.559 to caught up in what we're actually observing 00:20:47.559 --> 00:20:49.740 that this this reminds me of another thing that 00:20:49.740 --> 00:20:53.259 i wanted to talk to you you about ben and also 00:20:53.259 --> 00:20:56.660 seth which is that. USC and the school social 00:20:56.660 --> 00:21:00.460 work has been really involved in tracking and 00:21:00.460 --> 00:21:03.799 monitoring the number of people who are experiencing 00:21:03.799 --> 00:21:06.079 homelessness in los angeles since about twenty 00:21:06.079 --> 00:21:10.519 seventeen and i know that you just had the twenty. 00:21:11.470 --> 00:21:14.869 25 homeless count results came out very recently 00:21:14.869 --> 00:21:18.289 and there was once again a reduction in homelessness. 00:21:18.529 --> 00:21:22.170 Can you speak to both the experience of working 00:21:22.170 --> 00:21:24.990 on those counts and also sort of what you are 00:21:24.990 --> 00:21:27.369 observing over time? I know you mentioned that 00:21:27.369 --> 00:21:30.279 there's been this... Nearly doubling of the homeless 00:21:30.279 --> 00:21:32.680 population in the last 10 years, but it's not 00:21:32.680 --> 00:21:36.220 all bad news, right? Yeah, right. I mean Look, 00:21:36.259 --> 00:21:39.539 I think there's been a lot of discussion lately 00:21:39.539 --> 00:21:43.619 because for the second year in a row now our 00:21:43.619 --> 00:21:46.579 Annual point -in -time estimates which is basically, 00:21:46.579 --> 00:21:51.119 you know once a year the the county is required 00:21:51.119 --> 00:21:54.839 to produce estimates of how many people they 00:21:54.839 --> 00:21:56.920 think are experiencing homelessness that they 00:21:56.920 --> 00:22:01.059 need to submit that information to HUD as part 00:22:01.059 --> 00:22:03.339 of receiving federal funding for homeless services. 00:22:03.839 --> 00:22:06.579 And since, as you mentioned, since 2017, we've 00:22:06.579 --> 00:22:09.539 partnered with the county to produce those estimates 00:22:09.539 --> 00:22:13.059 and help collect the data. A lot of listeners 00:22:13.059 --> 00:22:15.980 may have participated in the point in time count, 00:22:16.000 --> 00:22:18.500 which is actually just a volunteer effort to 00:22:18.500 --> 00:22:23.559 go out literally once a year. canvass their neighborhoods 00:22:23.559 --> 00:22:25.880 and count how many people they see living on 00:22:25.880 --> 00:22:30.920 the streets. We use the data that the volunteers 00:22:30.920 --> 00:22:36.819 collect and we pair that with survey data that 00:22:36.819 --> 00:22:39.539 our teams go out and we talk to about four to 00:22:39.539 --> 00:22:42.420 five thousand unhoused individuals each year. 00:22:42.799 --> 00:22:48.000 And we use that, really, as the sample to extrapolate 00:22:48.000 --> 00:22:50.700 and understand the population who's out there 00:22:50.700 --> 00:22:53.299 and the size of that population. And so, yeah, 00:22:53.420 --> 00:22:55.539 so the past couple of years, we've finally seen 00:22:55.539 --> 00:22:58.920 sort of a bending of this curve where we peaked 00:22:58.920 --> 00:23:03.200 out at just over 70 ,000 homeless individuals 00:23:03.200 --> 00:23:08.299 in LACOC. continuum of care. That's what we do. 00:23:08.559 --> 00:23:11.039 There are four continuums of care in the county, 00:23:11.500 --> 00:23:13.779 but three are pretty small and we do the majority 00:23:13.779 --> 00:23:16.339 of the county. But those numbers have gone down 00:23:16.339 --> 00:23:19.559 and so people are hopeful that the investments 00:23:19.559 --> 00:23:22.519 that have been made have been in getting people 00:23:22.519 --> 00:23:25.559 off the streets and, you know, and out of homelessness. 00:23:26.039 --> 00:23:28.440 Yeah, I mean, it's a huge lift to think that 00:23:28.440 --> 00:23:31.099 we're going to solve this problem that's at the 00:23:31.099 --> 00:23:35.759 scale of 70 ,000 people a night in just a few 00:23:35.759 --> 00:23:38.279 months or even a couple of years. I mean, at 00:23:38.279 --> 00:23:40.920 least from my perspective, this investment in 00:23:40.920 --> 00:23:45.039 taxpayer dollars that L .A. County and city have 00:23:45.039 --> 00:23:47.660 done, you know, it's an amazing thing and it's 00:23:47.660 --> 00:23:50.240 exactly what we need to have done. And I think 00:23:50.240 --> 00:23:54.700 that folks sometimes are a bit impatient for 00:23:54.700 --> 00:23:57.740 results and it's, you know, we're trying to move 00:23:57.740 --> 00:24:00.980 an iceberg of a problem, not an ice cube, right? 00:24:00.980 --> 00:24:03.539 I mean, it's a huge thing. And another thing 00:24:03.539 --> 00:24:05.640 I know that people are really upset about is 00:24:05.640 --> 00:24:10.079 really the amount of people who they see visibly 00:24:10.079 --> 00:24:15.180 out on the streets, unsheltered, in encampments, 00:24:15.460 --> 00:24:18.720 in tents, you know, on the sidewalks. And, you 00:24:18.720 --> 00:24:23.279 know, is LA unique in this experience? Are we 00:24:23.500 --> 00:24:25.519 you know, worse off than most. I mean, can you 00:24:25.519 --> 00:24:27.240 maybe talk to our listeners about just sort of 00:24:27.240 --> 00:24:30.440 like what this unsheltered homeless experience 00:24:30.440 --> 00:24:34.480 of LA is like? Yeah, well, LA has the dubious 00:24:34.480 --> 00:24:37.400 distinction of having the largest unsheltered 00:24:37.400 --> 00:24:41.099 population in the country. But we're not that 00:24:41.099 --> 00:24:46.539 unusual for any place where housing affordability 00:24:46.539 --> 00:24:49.960 is high. You see higher rates of homelessness. 00:24:51.220 --> 00:24:53.980 And so pretty much across the West Coast, you're 00:24:53.980 --> 00:24:56.519 going to see a lot of unshelteredness. And also, 00:24:56.519 --> 00:24:59.059 there hasn't really been an investment in the 00:24:59.059 --> 00:25:03.700 shelter system like we we have in New York. So 00:25:03.700 --> 00:25:07.240 New York actually has overall more people experiencing 00:25:07.240 --> 00:25:09.940 homelessness than in LA, but most of those people 00:25:09.940 --> 00:25:12.839 reside in the shelter system, which is quite 00:25:12.839 --> 00:25:16.559 expensive to maintain, but there are less people 00:25:16.559 --> 00:25:20.099 on the streets. Here it's the opposite. We see 00:25:20.099 --> 00:25:23.019 a lot more people, almost three out of four people 00:25:23.019 --> 00:25:25.119 experiencing homelessness in Los Angeles are 00:25:25.119 --> 00:25:28.670 gonna be unsheltered. Wow. So Seth, I know you've 00:25:28.670 --> 00:25:31.170 done a lot of work in the areas of prevention 00:25:31.170 --> 00:25:35.369 and driving these systemic changes. So why is 00:25:35.369 --> 00:25:37.390 this multi -level collaboration structure at 00:25:37.390 --> 00:25:39.849 HPRI between researchers and services that you're 00:25:39.849 --> 00:25:42.410 so in part of? Like, why is that so important? 00:25:42.509 --> 00:25:45.430 And what are we trying to improve about these 00:25:45.430 --> 00:25:48.069 systems when we're developing policies? I mean, 00:25:48.069 --> 00:25:52.490 how is this, what's going on for you? Yeah. Just 00:25:52.490 --> 00:25:57.130 to put it, I guess, purely Uh, the collaboration 00:25:57.130 --> 00:26:01.069 is about getting to better questions. You know, 00:26:01.210 --> 00:26:04.230 Einstein says if I had 55 minutes to if I had 00:26:04.230 --> 00:26:06.849 an hour to solve a problem, I'd spend 55 minutes. 00:26:07.230 --> 00:26:09.069 Making sure I had the question, right? Because 00:26:09.069 --> 00:26:10.769 when you really end, of course, with research, 00:26:10.769 --> 00:26:14.029 of course, but getting to better questions. So, 00:26:14.069 --> 00:26:17.349 yeah, when we are collaborating, when we're convening. 00:26:17.549 --> 00:26:19.869 When we're networking, when we're proliferating 00:26:19.869 --> 00:26:22.529 research, and that's in addition to. you know, 00:26:22.529 --> 00:26:25.029 the actual research that the Institute facilitates, 00:26:25.170 --> 00:26:29.029 but that collaborative impact model, which is 00:26:29.029 --> 00:26:33.430 a model that some organizations use anytime. 00:26:33.769 --> 00:26:36.630 I mean, this conversation, you know, if there 00:26:36.630 --> 00:26:38.450 were just one of us, it wouldn't be the same, 00:26:38.569 --> 00:26:40.990 right? So you got to kind of put it together. 00:26:40.990 --> 00:26:45.490 And that is something that is maybe underestimated. 00:26:45.750 --> 00:26:48.869 But when we do that, we come to a lot of fascinating 00:26:48.869 --> 00:26:52.609 things like even in this. conversation, there 00:26:52.609 --> 00:26:56.190 is an element that hasn't come up yet, but it 00:26:56.190 --> 00:26:59.150 has come up in collaborative discussion. And 00:26:59.150 --> 00:27:03.150 that is just the nature of real estate. I mean, 00:27:03.230 --> 00:27:06.069 we realize real estate is the biggest, it's like 00:27:06.069 --> 00:27:08.529 the engine of capitalism or certainly, you know, 00:27:08.630 --> 00:27:10.029 maybe it's the transmission or something, but 00:27:10.029 --> 00:27:13.609 it's pretty important, right? And it's there 00:27:13.609 --> 00:27:17.230 with a profit motive. It's kind of baked in. 00:27:17.369 --> 00:27:23.390 L .A. County has a finite area. Yeah. So X number 00:27:23.390 --> 00:27:27.430 of people on house, the timeline to build and 00:27:27.430 --> 00:27:31.109 the cost to build. So now there are trends like 00:27:31.109 --> 00:27:33.910 higher density, which, you know, then now we're 00:27:33.910 --> 00:27:36.509 changing the scope of the city. So there are 00:27:36.509 --> 00:27:38.950 a lot of things that come up like in response 00:27:38.950 --> 00:27:41.150 to the you're talking about some of the federal 00:27:41.150 --> 00:27:46.369 attacks on housing first. I think it's fair to 00:27:46.369 --> 00:27:50.049 say that wherever you lie politically, there's 00:27:50.049 --> 00:27:54.029 a bit of a danger of throwing out the baby with 00:27:54.029 --> 00:27:58.170 the bathwater to just kind of wholesale, make 00:27:58.170 --> 00:28:02.069 some of these sweeping cuts and changes and stuff. 00:28:02.490 --> 00:28:06.390 And so who's teasing out the baby from the bathwater? 00:28:07.430 --> 00:28:09.150 Because there is a lot, like I said, there's 00:28:09.150 --> 00:28:12.250 a lot going right. And there's a lot of people 00:28:12.680 --> 00:28:16.099 You know, making these efforts. So this is again, 00:28:16.099 --> 00:28:18.259 what kind of took us in the collaborative and 00:28:18.259 --> 00:28:21.180 I don't, you know, but what took us was to this 00:28:21.180 --> 00:28:24.279 idea of flourishing. So many people are understanding 00:28:24.279 --> 00:28:26.819 the importance of well -being. And like I said, 00:28:26.839 --> 00:28:28.819 sometimes it's kind of considered lightweight 00:28:28.819 --> 00:28:33.539 and stuff. Sure. Really too. I mean, the work 00:28:33.539 --> 00:28:36.619 we've done and we're working with community based 00:28:36.619 --> 00:28:40.259 organizations that administer public, you know, 00:28:40.359 --> 00:28:43.950 permanent supportive housing. and they're hungry 00:28:43.950 --> 00:28:49.369 for this conversation. Then even maybe on the 00:28:49.369 --> 00:28:50.990 other side of the aisle, but whether it's liberal 00:28:50.990 --> 00:28:54.789 or conservative, the idea of employment, the 00:28:54.789 --> 00:28:57.970 idea of safety, the idea of dignity, and the 00:28:57.970 --> 00:29:01.029 idea of these teams who are working. There's 00:29:01.029 --> 00:29:04.569 armies in LA alone, thousands of people of clinicians. 00:29:04.769 --> 00:29:08.009 How many clinicians, case managers? you know, 00:29:08.230 --> 00:29:11.690 researchers, you know, just unsung heroes, frontline 00:29:11.690 --> 00:29:15.730 people, mental health, county are all working 00:29:15.730 --> 00:29:18.609 on this issue. So you take those thousands of 00:29:18.609 --> 00:29:22.809 people, whatever kind of like the, the zeitgeist 00:29:22.809 --> 00:29:27.109 mental health, happiness, trust, teamwork, mindfulness 00:29:27.109 --> 00:29:30.869 is among us working on this issue. Oh, sure. 00:29:30.930 --> 00:29:34.109 Sure. It is the results. So, and it is, it is 00:29:34.109 --> 00:29:36.450 expensive to build housing. So this idea of flourishing 00:29:36.450 --> 00:29:39.000 is like, maybe it's more efficient and effective 00:29:39.000 --> 00:29:42.380 to build up people even as we're building up 00:29:42.380 --> 00:29:45.740 the housing. HPRI, like you said, there's a lot 00:29:45.740 --> 00:29:49.099 going on, not even that we're responsible for 00:29:49.099 --> 00:29:53.579 all of it, but a thought hub, a clearing house, 00:29:53.819 --> 00:29:58.440 a collaborative partner, a networking linchpin 00:29:58.440 --> 00:30:03.019 has been something that was thought up. This 00:30:03.019 --> 00:30:06.900 makes me think of for a second that HPRI, we 00:30:06.900 --> 00:30:09.700 haven't really talked about, what is this? And 00:30:09.700 --> 00:30:12.539 I think I'd love to, if you could maybe give, 00:30:12.700 --> 00:30:14.400 I don't know, Ben or Seth or both of you kind 00:30:14.400 --> 00:30:17.660 of give a little bit of a description of what 00:30:17.660 --> 00:30:21.339 this institute is and what its mission is. I 00:30:21.339 --> 00:30:23.400 think it's a really important thing for our listeners 00:30:23.400 --> 00:30:26.079 to understand. Yeah, I was gonna I was gonna 00:30:26.079 --> 00:30:27.839 chime in because I was wondering if people were 00:30:27.839 --> 00:30:30.119 following along There's a you know, a homelessness 00:30:30.119 --> 00:30:33.359 policy research institute at usc There's our 00:30:33.359 --> 00:30:35.720 you know research center on homelessness housing 00:30:35.720 --> 00:30:38.160 and health equity research And so if I can just 00:30:38.160 --> 00:30:40.259 provide a little bit of context, please, you 00:30:40.259 --> 00:30:44.220 know both both of these entities came about around 00:30:44.220 --> 00:30:46.960 the same time, but they have very different sort 00:30:46.960 --> 00:30:52.119 of origins and uh and sort of purposes and so, 00:30:52.119 --> 00:30:56.809 you know, i'll just start uh Eric, with the research 00:30:56.809 --> 00:31:00.069 center that started here at our school in 2018 00:31:00.069 --> 00:31:05.309 -2019, really grew out of, and as you know, the 00:31:05.309 --> 00:31:07.569 work that we were doing here at our school. When 00:31:07.569 --> 00:31:12.450 I came to USC in 2012, I was working with you 00:31:12.450 --> 00:31:16.670 and Suzanne Wenzel and Harmony Rhodes, really 00:31:16.670 --> 00:31:21.099 top scholars in the field looking at this transition 00:31:21.099 --> 00:31:24.700 that people had from off the streets into permanent 00:31:24.700 --> 00:31:27.240 supportive housing using housing first. And in 00:31:27.240 --> 00:31:30.420 fact, the National Institute of Health funded 00:31:30.420 --> 00:31:32.980 what we call the transition study, where we actually 00:31:32.980 --> 00:31:35.380 followed people over the course of the year and 00:31:35.380 --> 00:31:39.880 to see what changes we observed in terms of their. 00:31:40.170 --> 00:31:42.609 They're kind of their health or their behaviors. 00:31:42.869 --> 00:31:46.069 Um, and, and, you know, and, and so that, that 00:31:46.069 --> 00:31:49.289 really was an opportunity for us to work together. 00:31:49.410 --> 00:31:52.069 Since then, there's been a lot of work that we've 00:31:52.069 --> 00:31:55.849 done both in the, in the, uh, doing research 00:31:55.849 --> 00:31:58.369 on supportive housing. So that includes some 00:31:58.369 --> 00:32:01.309 of the, the projects related to, you know, this 00:32:01.309 --> 00:32:05.089 is an aging population. How do we support. adults 00:32:05.089 --> 00:32:07.910 who are coming off the streets into housing. 00:32:08.769 --> 00:32:11.829 They have accelerated aging. How do we help them 00:32:11.829 --> 00:32:14.430 live independently now that we've put all this 00:32:14.430 --> 00:32:16.890 effort into getting them a home, right? So there's 00:32:16.890 --> 00:32:20.490 that. We have a study funded by the National 00:32:20.490 --> 00:32:22.950 Science Foundation to look at can technology 00:32:22.950 --> 00:32:26.569 better support people in supportive housing. 00:32:27.029 --> 00:32:29.569 So we have multiple. Yeah, and you also, we also 00:32:29.569 --> 00:32:31.150 worked on that one project that was one of your 00:32:31.150 --> 00:32:34.890 first. Really big grants that was on on how are 00:32:34.890 --> 00:32:37.390 youth like young adults who are in these permits 00:32:37.390 --> 00:32:39.230 for housing? How are they doing? I mean you've 00:32:39.230 --> 00:32:42.009 really I mean the audience that doesn't know 00:32:42.009 --> 00:32:43.930 I mean not only did Ben literally, you know, 00:32:44.029 --> 00:32:46.069 literally not figuratively write this book But 00:32:46.069 --> 00:32:49.029 I mean, he's really been working on lots of different 00:32:49.230 --> 00:32:52.410 angles, you know, youth, aging adults, you know, 00:32:52.490 --> 00:32:54.890 sort of the more, I guess, you know, typical 00:32:54.890 --> 00:32:57.130 sort of, you know, folks that are sort of our 00:32:57.130 --> 00:32:59.470 age, you know, middle aged folks who are who 00:32:59.470 --> 00:33:01.490 are in housing. But I mean, you know, you've 00:33:01.490 --> 00:33:03.089 been you've been doing a lot of different stuff 00:33:03.089 --> 00:33:05.269 with a lot of different populations and really 00:33:05.269 --> 00:33:08.170 was a big emphasis on as Seth was saying this. 00:33:09.160 --> 00:33:11.779 Flourishing and well -being and health. It's 00:33:11.779 --> 00:33:15.740 not just a focus on hey housing is good unto 00:33:15.740 --> 00:33:18.940 itself But housing makes people's lives better 00:33:18.940 --> 00:33:21.799 Yeah, and that and again and I appreciate that 00:33:21.799 --> 00:33:24.380 and that was really enabled by you know Your 00:33:24.380 --> 00:33:26.880 expertise with the the young adult population 00:33:26.880 --> 00:33:29.059 experiencing homelessness so we so we could do 00:33:29.059 --> 00:33:32.720 that work But you know all that is to say in 00:33:32.720 --> 00:33:34.980 when we started the research center. It was really 00:33:34.980 --> 00:33:37.250 an acknowledgement that We're doing a lot of 00:33:37.250 --> 00:33:40.450 work here. We'd like to, to house it, you know, 00:33:40.670 --> 00:33:44.349 together, given this focus, uh, not just on this, 00:33:44.390 --> 00:33:47.029 on the, on the housing side, but like, as you 00:33:47.029 --> 00:33:48.630 said, I didn't, I didn't even really think of 00:33:48.630 --> 00:33:51.170 myself as a homelessness researcher when I got 00:33:51.339 --> 00:33:53.880 here because quite frankly you know I thought 00:33:53.880 --> 00:33:56.000 that was the easy part addressing the homelessness 00:33:56.000 --> 00:33:58.019 and it was really like you're saying how do we 00:33:58.019 --> 00:34:02.519 help people you know um flourish once they they 00:34:02.519 --> 00:34:04.880 move into housing and so it was really you know 00:34:04.880 --> 00:34:07.220 I was I was a health services researcher but 00:34:07.220 --> 00:34:09.989 but As we mentioned, you know, there is work 00:34:09.989 --> 00:34:12.349 to be done to understand just homelessness. And 00:34:12.349 --> 00:34:14.110 that's why we got involved in the homeless count. 00:34:14.449 --> 00:34:17.110 We we have other projects just related to like 00:34:17.110 --> 00:34:18.949 street medicine and understanding how do you 00:34:18.949 --> 00:34:21.949 bring care to the streets. So that's all that's 00:34:21.949 --> 00:34:24.670 all research that's sort of housed in our research 00:34:24.670 --> 00:34:28.050 center here at the school. It's it's more I don't 00:34:28.050 --> 00:34:29.809 want to say traditional research, but it's funded 00:34:29.809 --> 00:34:32.130 by the traditional institutes like the National 00:34:32.130 --> 00:34:34.409 Science Foundation, National Institutes of Health. 00:34:34.760 --> 00:34:38.239 HPRI has a very different origin story in the 00:34:38.239 --> 00:34:42.699 sense that it was developed initially at the 00:34:42.699 --> 00:34:46.579 Price School of Public Policy. Just last year, 00:34:46.719 --> 00:34:50.000 it became a joint institute, now at Public Policy 00:34:50.000 --> 00:34:52.820 and the School of Social Work. It's a collective 00:34:52.820 --> 00:34:55.719 impact model where the goal is not necessarily 00:34:55.719 --> 00:34:58.300 to produce that research that I was just talking 00:34:58.300 --> 00:35:01.849 about, but it's to support researchers to do 00:35:01.849 --> 00:35:05.829 that work and to have a collective impact to 00:35:05.829 --> 00:35:07.889 like, what is the body of research that's happening 00:35:07.889 --> 00:35:10.650 here in Southern California? And how do we translate 00:35:10.650 --> 00:35:13.849 that into effective policy? And so there's this 00:35:13.849 --> 00:35:16.739 recognition that we need to convene. researchers 00:35:16.739 --> 00:35:19.679 together, along with policymakers, along with 00:35:19.679 --> 00:35:22.619 the people working in the field, along with people 00:35:22.619 --> 00:35:25.820 with lived experience. And that is, that was, 00:35:25.820 --> 00:35:29.780 you know, why HPRI was developed to sort of have 00:35:29.780 --> 00:35:32.360 that convening function. You know, they're much 00:35:32.360 --> 00:35:35.539 different goals and purposes, but they are very 00:35:35.539 --> 00:35:38.539 complementary to one another. And as you're describing 00:35:38.539 --> 00:35:40.739 the center, it makes me think of something that 00:35:40.739 --> 00:35:42.920 Seth, you said at the beginning of our conversation, 00:35:43.119 --> 00:35:45.860 which was that you're really interested in breaking 00:35:45.860 --> 00:35:49.820 down these silos, right? And so with your role 00:35:49.820 --> 00:35:57.400 in the HPRI, what do you do to convene these 00:35:57.400 --> 00:35:59.219 groups of people, break down these silos, make 00:35:59.219 --> 00:36:04.239 an impact? I mean, what's your day -to -day way 00:36:04.239 --> 00:36:08.050 of tackling these problems? That's a great question. 00:36:09.869 --> 00:36:13.010 There's the reactive side of it, and then there's 00:36:13.010 --> 00:36:16.889 a proactive side. That might be one way to frame 00:36:16.889 --> 00:36:24.869 it. Reactive is literally just within USC. There's 00:36:24.869 --> 00:36:27.369 street medicine at Keck. There's the dentistry 00:36:27.369 --> 00:36:29.750 school that stuff going on. There's other research 00:36:29.750 --> 00:36:33.389 institutes publishing things and wanting to make 00:36:33.389 --> 00:36:36.340 connections. And that's just within USC then 00:36:36.340 --> 00:36:41.500 similarly across research and policy. So. You 00:36:41.500 --> 00:36:43.380 know, the emails are coming in, we're seeing, 00:36:43.380 --> 00:36:45.380 you know, events that are happening where, you 00:36:45.380 --> 00:36:48.039 know, can making connections, we're being invited 00:36:48.039 --> 00:36:51.219 to speak and share. So that's like, just just 00:36:51.219 --> 00:36:55.380 the reactive side. The proactive side has taken 00:36:55.380 --> 00:37:01.050 a few forms. The main one is periodic convenings 00:37:01.050 --> 00:37:04.489 or regular convenings. There's a research committee, 00:37:04.690 --> 00:37:07.050 there's a data gaps committee, there's a race 00:37:07.050 --> 00:37:09.869 equity committee. Each of them have their own 00:37:09.869 --> 00:37:14.090 sub direction or agenda or network within the 00:37:14.090 --> 00:37:17.409 network of questions, conversations that they 00:37:17.409 --> 00:37:21.989 are solving. This idea of flourishing, we are 00:37:21.989 --> 00:37:28.400 convening summit September 11th at USC. where 00:37:28.400 --> 00:37:31.840 we will be having these cross silo conversations, 00:37:32.139 --> 00:37:37.719 civic leaders, policy, AI, medicine, health, 00:37:38.960 --> 00:37:43.820 even well -being best practices. So there's space 00:37:43.820 --> 00:37:48.699 to innovate. There's a lot of evidence that improv 00:37:48.699 --> 00:37:53.639 will help people. work better together if they 00:37:53.639 --> 00:37:55.699 spend an hour kind of playing a game and kind 00:37:55.699 --> 00:37:57.519 of learning how to do that. And so there's a 00:37:57.519 --> 00:37:59.480 lot of science and research to back that up. 00:37:59.960 --> 00:38:04.980 So we're inviting folks to do that and try it 00:38:04.980 --> 00:38:07.139 at the summit. So these are frontline workers. 00:38:07.239 --> 00:38:10.500 These are county managers, leaders, property 00:38:10.500 --> 00:38:12.639 managers across permanent supportive housing, 00:38:13.199 --> 00:38:15.860 asset managers, people with lived experience, 00:38:16.139 --> 00:38:20.380 privileging their voices in these kind of ivory 00:38:20.380 --> 00:38:23.639 tower and city hall conversations. And that's 00:38:23.639 --> 00:38:25.380 a real, that's a really important thing. I mean, 00:38:25.440 --> 00:38:28.679 I think. This is something at least I struggle 00:38:28.679 --> 00:38:32.559 with in my own work is the The real the reality 00:38:32.559 --> 00:38:34.860 that I am not somebody who's experienced homelessness 00:38:34.860 --> 00:38:37.440 I care very much about this this problem but 00:38:37.440 --> 00:38:39.780 giving people who have it had this experience 00:38:39.780 --> 00:38:43.480 of voice in these Spaces is such an important 00:38:43.480 --> 00:38:45.360 thing and it's great to hear that you're you're 00:38:45.360 --> 00:38:47.800 doing that I mean Do you have mechanisms that 00:38:47.800 --> 00:38:50.360 you like you have a formal board of those folks 00:38:50.360 --> 00:38:53.800 or how do you do that? Yeah, people call them, 00:38:53.800 --> 00:38:56.960 you know, in other organizations, community advisory 00:38:56.960 --> 00:39:01.119 boards. But on, I mean, on several of our committees, 00:39:01.820 --> 00:39:07.820 we really do endeavor to have that voice. It's 00:39:07.820 --> 00:39:11.119 not just like one community advisory board, but 00:39:11.119 --> 00:39:15.579 all the way through because, yeah, what good 00:39:15.579 --> 00:39:20.769 is it? if I've never really, really been homeless. 00:39:21.369 --> 00:39:23.949 There was a moment there, senior year of undergrad, 00:39:24.210 --> 00:39:26.789 that we don't talk about that, but I was never 00:39:26.789 --> 00:39:29.170 really homeless to really be serious and sincere. 00:39:29.429 --> 00:39:31.969 I have one last question that I wanna throw to 00:39:31.969 --> 00:39:34.630 each of you. What is, from your perspective, 00:39:34.809 --> 00:39:37.449 one of the biggest misconceptions about homelessness 00:39:37.449 --> 00:39:39.829 or people living with homelessness that you would 00:39:39.829 --> 00:39:44.730 like to dispel? To put it briefly, it's probably, 00:39:45.490 --> 00:39:48.909 an assumed dichotomy, like there's an us and 00:39:48.909 --> 00:39:51.849 a them. There's like, you know, thank God I work 00:39:51.849 --> 00:39:54.030 in this office and thank God I have a washing 00:39:54.030 --> 00:39:56.849 machine and thank God I'm not homeless. And then 00:39:56.849 --> 00:40:00.469 them with their, you know, addiction and bad 00:40:00.469 --> 00:40:03.289 roll of the dice and mental illness and like, 00:40:03.849 --> 00:40:07.829 but literally this is what one of the things 00:40:07.829 --> 00:40:10.949 that comes out is like a parallel process where 00:40:11.369 --> 00:40:14.730 If a case manager is there to facilitate change 00:40:14.730 --> 00:40:17.670 in a person's life, accountability would hold 00:40:17.670 --> 00:40:22.409 that they must be endeavoring in some sort of 00:40:22.409 --> 00:40:25.289 change of life, some sort of improvement, so 00:40:25.289 --> 00:40:27.409 that there's some sort of us and them that's 00:40:27.409 --> 00:40:30.110 really baked deeply in the conversation because 00:40:30.110 --> 00:40:33.489 of financial realities. But that's something 00:40:33.489 --> 00:40:35.750 that we could take a closer look at. Yeah, I 00:40:35.750 --> 00:40:37.929 know that's really thoughtful. And Ben, what 00:40:37.929 --> 00:40:41.110 about you? What's a misconception around The 00:40:41.110 --> 00:40:42.909 experience of homelessness or people experiencing 00:40:42.909 --> 00:40:45.530 homelessness that you would like to see Yep, 00:40:45.889 --> 00:40:49.929 leave the dialogue Yeah, I mean I look I I agree 00:40:49.929 --> 00:40:52.449 with Seth and i'll just sort of go back to the 00:40:52.449 --> 00:40:56.070 the data and what we know and you know, it it 00:40:56.070 --> 00:40:59.530 is true that there's a a misperception and in 00:40:59.530 --> 00:41:03.690 fact, uh the uh Trump administration's executive 00:41:03.690 --> 00:41:06.030 order made the claim that you know the majority 00:41:06.030 --> 00:41:10.460 of people on the streets are criminals, have 00:41:10.460 --> 00:41:13.880 mental illness, are addicted to drugs. I don't 00:41:13.880 --> 00:41:16.280 know anywhere where that data supports that claim. 00:41:16.480 --> 00:41:19.699 And if you just look at the information we have, 00:41:20.300 --> 00:41:23.000 yes, while there are higher rates of, say, addiction 00:41:23.000 --> 00:41:25.239 and mental illness in the homeless population, 00:41:25.360 --> 00:41:28.099 it is not the majority of people out there. There 00:41:28.099 --> 00:41:31.320 are a lot of different misperceptions. People 00:41:31.320 --> 00:41:35.030 claim that the reason we have such high rates 00:41:35.030 --> 00:41:37.309 of homelessness here is because people come for 00:41:37.309 --> 00:41:39.570 the weather. They like Southern California and 00:41:39.570 --> 00:41:42.230 they move here to be homeless. And people are 00:41:42.230 --> 00:41:44.650 not upwardly mobile and decide, hey, where's 00:41:44.650 --> 00:41:46.329 the best place to be homeless? That's not what 00:41:46.329 --> 00:41:50.460 happens. People end up homeless where they grew 00:41:50.460 --> 00:41:53.599 up where they live and where they've experienced 00:41:53.599 --> 00:41:57.219 misfortune. Look, I get it. I think one way to 00:41:57.219 --> 00:41:59.960 think about that question, you know, because 00:41:59.960 --> 00:42:02.099 it's like, well, you're saying that. But what 00:42:02.099 --> 00:42:05.119 about what I see on the streets? Right. And sure. 00:42:05.460 --> 00:42:07.300 I think it's worth pointing out, you know, and 00:42:07.300 --> 00:42:09.280 some people have described it as like a game 00:42:09.280 --> 00:42:12.059 of musical chairs. Right. And in this case, we're 00:42:12.059 --> 00:42:14.659 going to talk about housing. If there's not enough 00:42:14.659 --> 00:42:17.239 housing, like literally just not enough, it means 00:42:17.239 --> 00:42:20.210 someone is going to be without a home. And then 00:42:20.210 --> 00:42:22.630 the question is, who is more likely to be that 00:42:22.630 --> 00:42:25.489 person, right? And that's why we tend to see 00:42:25.489 --> 00:42:28.550 people who have additional challenges are the 00:42:28.550 --> 00:42:31.309 ones who end up homelessness. But that doesn't 00:42:31.309 --> 00:42:33.429 explain why they're homeless, right? The reason 00:42:33.429 --> 00:42:35.590 they're homeless is there is just not enough 00:42:35.590 --> 00:42:39.590 of a very basic need. And until we change that 00:42:39.590 --> 00:42:42.269 equation, we're always going to have the situation 00:42:42.269 --> 00:42:46.130 and see that. I will just add one other point 00:42:46.130 --> 00:42:49.210 that I do think we need to start having a real 00:42:49.210 --> 00:42:51.730 conversation around homelessness because, you 00:42:51.730 --> 00:42:54.550 know, there's sort of the camp. And look for 00:42:54.550 --> 00:42:58.050 I am among this camp that feels like we can solve 00:42:58.050 --> 00:42:59.989 this problem. We can end homelessness. Right. 00:43:00.150 --> 00:43:02.670 And then you have the people that are like, no, 00:43:02.670 --> 00:43:05.309 it's because of people's failings. That's why 00:43:05.309 --> 00:43:06.510 they're homeless. There's nothing we can really 00:43:06.510 --> 00:43:09.989 do about it. I mean, neither one is right. I 00:43:09.989 --> 00:43:13.610 mean, I think both both. extremes have their 00:43:13.610 --> 00:43:16.989 points, but if we're not going to invest in sort 00:43:16.989 --> 00:43:20.369 of the basic needs that our society has and have 00:43:20.369 --> 00:43:22.750 enough affordable housing, we will have this 00:43:22.750 --> 00:43:24.710 problem. There's no getting around that. And 00:43:24.710 --> 00:43:27.510 then the question becomes, how do we manage it? 00:43:28.110 --> 00:43:32.630 And how do people get access to water and bathrooms 00:43:32.630 --> 00:43:35.469 and trash pickup? I mean, nobody wants to go 00:43:35.469 --> 00:43:37.489 there and talk about it. But if we're going to 00:43:37.489 --> 00:43:39.630 have encampments because we don't have any place 00:43:39.630 --> 00:43:42.699 for people to go, then what are the policies 00:43:42.699 --> 00:43:45.719 to manage that? And that is not, I mean, I get 00:43:45.719 --> 00:43:49.519 it. That's not a conversation that wins politicians 00:43:49.519 --> 00:43:52.599 any votes, but it's one that we need to have 00:43:52.599 --> 00:43:55.320 because this problem is going to persist if we 00:43:55.320 --> 00:44:00.320 don't sort of change the way we're going or decide 00:44:00.320 --> 00:44:02.480 we're going to have this real conversation and 00:44:02.480 --> 00:44:05.320 figure out better ways to deal with it and manage 00:44:05.320 --> 00:44:09.880 it. Well, Ben. Seth thank you both so much that 00:44:09.880 --> 00:44:14.539 was a great way to take us out. And we've really 00:44:14.539 --> 00:44:16.900 just scratched the surface in terms of all the 00:44:16.900 --> 00:44:19.460 vast amount of work that you all have done. Problems 00:44:19.460 --> 00:44:22.179 as big as homelessness don't get solved overnight. 00:44:22.300 --> 00:44:24.460 If they were something that we could have solved 00:44:24.460 --> 00:44:26.699 overnight, we would have done it. And as you 00:44:26.699 --> 00:44:29.420 said there at the end, Ben, there's some real 00:44:29.420 --> 00:44:32.559 challenging dialogues and societal investments 00:44:32.559 --> 00:44:35.179 that need to be made. In the meantime, you want 00:44:35.179 --> 00:44:38.719 to learn more about Ben and Seth's work, please 00:44:38.719 --> 00:44:42.389 check out their websites. So there are two. One 00:44:42.389 --> 00:44:48.190 is h3e .usc .edu. That's for the Housing, Homelessness, 00:44:48.230 --> 00:44:53.510 and Health. And then there is the hpri .usc .edu, 00:44:53.690 --> 00:44:55.909 and that's for the Housing Policy Research Institute. 00:44:56.150 --> 00:44:58.829 And if you have any questions for our guests 00:44:58.829 --> 00:45:01.469 or want to support the sort of transformative 00:45:01.469 --> 00:45:04.489 research that goes on here at the School of Social 00:45:04.489 --> 00:45:08.389 Work, you can email us at ListenUp. people at 00:45:08.389 --> 00:45:12.530 USC .edu. And I just want to thank you both so 00:45:12.530 --> 00:45:15.409 much again for your time and more importantly 00:45:15.409 --> 00:45:18.349 for the passion and dedication that you bring 00:45:18.349 --> 00:45:20.670 to this work and making people's lives better. 00:45:21.110 --> 00:45:22.769 Thanks. Thank you. It's been great.