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What's up everybody? Welcome to another episode of the Bronx Attorney broadcast. In this episode,

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I speak with Josh Gittleman. Josh was actually in my study group at St. John's, so we've

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known each other for quite some time now. Josh is a partner at DeToffel and Gittleman.

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He practices personal injury law, but also has a substantial employment law practice.

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In this episode, we talk about what it's like to change systems and processes and make partner

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at a small law firm. Enjoy.

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What's up Josh? Thanks for taking some time out of your day to talk to me.

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Hey Will, thanks for having me on the pod. I love your setup. You got the mic going and

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everything.

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Yeah, thank you. Just by means of introduction, why don't you tell us a little bit about your

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background? Where'd you come from? Where'd you go to school? Whatever you think is relevant.

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Absolutely. So I'll start a little bit at the top first. As you probably guessed, I'm

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an attorney at St. John's here with Will, but if we're going to rewind just a bit more

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than that. I'm a Long Island guy. I'm sure plenty of people listening are sick of us

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as it is. There's plenty of us running around here. So nothing too crazy about that. Suffolk

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County guy. There is some differences between the city and out there. It's not necessarily

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the sticks, but it was some childhood. It sounds just a suffix not that long ago. And

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I guess I didn't know one of, you know, there's a thousand differences between the Suffolk

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County courts and the city courts, like little things like that. Right. And so one of the

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attorneys there, I guess I didn't know one of their really local rules. He called me

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a two one two attorney. I don't know if that's a good thing or a bad thing, but he, he threw

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that out as it. It's all right away. So Long Island from the top, you know, and then after

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Long Island, I went to Buffalo, uh, so stayed New York the whole time, uh, you know, finance

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and marketing background in Buffalo and eventually transferred to, uh, or changed to, you know,

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a law career with St. John, uh, you know, all three years there. Not too much to play

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in. You know, you'd say there's pretty good guys out there from St. John's, right?

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Yeah, I would say so.

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And non-biased reaction for sure.

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So this, this guy that called you a two one two attorney, was he trying to like insult

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you as being too city?

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Yeah, that's what I think it was. So, you know, out there, they picked their jury a

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slightly different way. Uh, the cars at every stick like that. And so I was doing it the

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way that, you know, you do it in Kingsmore. And so he was like, he was a nice guy, but

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he was teasing me about it. Cause I was like, all right, let's go, you know, talk to the

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judge. And he was like, no, we just don't do it here that way. And he was right, you

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know, but I just, you know, the little rules there. So he threw me a, he called me a two

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one two guy.

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That's pretty funny. So what, uh, what brought you to St. John's Law School and how, what

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was your experience like there?

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Uh, St. John's was great. I mean, you know, the same kind of stuff that is, uh, not so

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great about any law school, not so great about St. John's, you know, doing the work.

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Right.

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But overall, high quality people, I would say, and, uh, I think you'd probably agree

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that Queens has a little bit about it where it tends to be down to earth people, uh,

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uh, compared to maybe some other schools. So, you know, I was up in Buffalo, which probably

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was pretty down to earth for undergrad, but, uh, St. John's just has the, the right file.

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At least I felt that way.

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Yeah. It wasn't as cutthroat as they, uh, some people say law school is. So that was

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a,

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Yeah.

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Who, who will remain, remain unnamed. Yeah. That were a little tough, right? Yeah. A

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little bit of a PTSD from that, but we're really going to go to that.

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So did you, did you have any experience in law prior to St. John's or is that, was that

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your first like legal experience?

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So I did, uh, and almost doing somewhat similar stuff. So when I was in undergrad, uh, I kind

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of worked as a legal secretary or paralegal at a defense firm for, you know, personal

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injuries, slip and falls. One of their larger clients was, uh, it was either stop and shop

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or shop, right? Uh, you know, those big supermarkets on Long Island. So, uh, a flavor of what I

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do now, you know, it was the fence side, uh, which is very different, uh, in many ways.

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Uh, and, and I think that, you know, similar for you.

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Uh, I got the feeling for a lot of defense stuff and I wouldn't say it pushed me to the

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place of stuff, but it definitely, you know, got me thinking about what the other side is

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like. Yeah. I mean, it definitely pushed me. I was like, yeah, I'm not doing this.

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Right. Yeah. There's plenty of stuff that I was like, uh, just really the structure

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that I want to be a part of this. And people have different opinions, but I feel like there's

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a lot more freedom on our side and you could build a little more.

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Yeah. It helps to work for the good guys too. Right?

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Absolutely. Absolutely.

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Being a stormtrooper in Darth Vader's army.

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I like to think, I haven't thought about it that way, but I do like to think of it that

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way. That's good. Right. Right on my alley.

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And then so why don't you tell us a little bit about, um, what you're doing now?

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Sure. Sure. So like I said, it was, especially in the first games of the field, um, all tend

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to be like personal injury or medical malpractice. And after moving to the, my current firm, I've

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been here for three or four years now, at least half the practice, probably more is employment

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discrimination.

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And what's your role there?

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So I'm a partner there. Didn't start out that way, but I'm a partner there. Uh, and a lot

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of these cases, there's a wide range of them, you know, they, they're, um, wage an hour cases

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with people who are underpaid, whether it be overtime, not getting paid at all, some

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labor law violations. And then I mean, the flip side of that, there's a lot of employment

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discrimination cases, which can be a bit of a, uh, uh, uh, hot topic as, as I think you're

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aware as well.

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Right. So did you, did you always know that you wanted to have an ownership interest in

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a law firm or was that something that came about later on?

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Yeah, that's, that's a good question. I think it's a combination of things. So when I first

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got to the firm and currently I was just top of all Gettelman and Josh Gettelman. So, um,

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I was still new to the field and the way the firm was set up, it was on the, the smaller

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side, uh, you know, another two attorneys, the head guy and me. And now it's, it's just

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me and another attorney and we're probably hiring another guy soon. And we have a paralegal

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and maybe another paralegal who's in and out. When it comes to the small firm, everything

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you do matters more. So I kind of got the feel, which I didn't have an infant size for

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and I didn't have in a larger firm that the more I do, the more I get good at what I'm

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doing and the more I can spend my time well in the firm, the more of a difference I made.

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And so, you know, I became a key piece in that, in that firm. And so I'm thinking to

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myself, how can I get more of a feeling like that, you know, making a difference? And,

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you know, yes, it's making a difference in my clients lives, but it's also making a

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difference in what the firm looks like and the outcome. It's hard in a bigger firm to

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see what your ripples are, you know, your ways, who knows. And so I guess that's kind

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of how it's developed. I was like, okay, so what would be the next step? If I'm pushing

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cases, if I'm settling cases, I'm learning, I'm allowing the firm to grow, how can I get

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more of that feeling? I think that's kind of where it came from.

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And do you feel like that's in developing systems and processes or from having, you

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know, your hand in a little bit more of every different aspect of the firm?

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I think it's in both. And you'll have to tell me if you get the same vibe, because when

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I see something that doesn't work the way it should, whether it's just like an outdated

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process, doesn't take advantage of the technology we have. It doesn't streamline things. I just,

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I like, I can't help it, but not try to fix it. You get that same kind of, yeah, so that's

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what it comes down to. I want to fix things, because one, it makes my life easier. Two,

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it makes everyone else's firm easier. And when I can see that actually playing out,

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that's a big thing. Just to think of an example, when we do client intakes, right, and we might

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touch on this before for the employment cases. And I don't know if I want to get too much

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into it now, but a big issue is that there's a huge discrepancy in what the law is and what

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the general public thinks the law is, what the protections are and what the general public

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thinks the protection are when it comes to employment and working. And sometimes that's

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because of the way that certain attorneys advertise, certain words that are both legal

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terms, but then also widely used in the non-legal way. And so an example of a streamlined process

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is having a document ready that in this plain of thing that you could possibly think of

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explains the law. So you have someone calling, they want to be signed up, and you don't want

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to give a lecture every time someone calls. You don't want to explain the very broad concepts

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because unless they have a decent understanding of law, it's really hard to shift through

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the facts to see if they have a case or not. They have to be doing some of the heavy lifting.

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You can't ask them everything about their life and then they get it. They got to know

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what you're looking for. And so creating a document that explains in plainest of English

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what you're looking for is kind of one of those processes where I just couldn't help

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but help myself and help the person.

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Yeah, and I know that we've discussed a lot about how the average person doesn't really

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understand what discrimination is and a lot of times confuses people who are just mean

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to them for discrimination. And something funny that I saw recently was somebody explained

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it for, as in, can my boss fire me for having mustard on my shirt? And it's like, yeah,

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does that really upset your boss? They can fire you for that.

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Right. It's one of a million different things they can fire you for. And there's like a

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category of 25 things they can't.

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Right. And so do you feel like developing this step in the process has helped make your

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life easier?

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It's made my life easier. It's made their attorney's life easier. And I think sometimes

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it brings in business because you help out someone even if they don't get signed up for

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a client, signed up as a client. You help out someone by explaining to them the law.

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And most of them, they come to their own conclusion about whether or not they have a case and

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they're happy that they helped it all. You helped it all. And then they go to their friend

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and now they have an understanding of what their friends don't have. And people love

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to share things that they know because people like to pass along the knowledge. And all

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of a sudden they say, okay, I don't have a case. But my friend here is in the exact situation

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that was explained in your memo and you went over with me. And so all of a sudden you're

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hearing from two degrees of different people, you're hearing from someone who has a case.

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So it works on a bunch of different levels there. You almost give, you don't know if

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you're going to get back, sometimes you do.

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And so you mentioned bringing in business. How have you gone about trying to bring in

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business and have you seen any success so far?

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Yeah. So I think it's a lot of momentum and a lot of building relationships. So I've

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tried a couple of the advertising routes. As far as if you have the capacity to take

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a lot of calls and listen to a lot of people and there's a stage in a firm where you can

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do that, then a lot of what does work is, and it tends to be hiring an outside firm,

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just optimizing the search engine results for your law firm website. That helps. It helps

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the law firm as a whole. So, and when I tell you that we went through at the law firm,

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two or three different marketing firms before we found one that was actually willing to

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put in the time, we did. We went to three or four. The first two or three, and this

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is the search engine optimization. They say they're going to do it. And then you look

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at the website, you look at like the metadata behind the website. They didn't change anything

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about it. So when you finally find someone who's willing to do it and optimize it, you

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can look at their Google searches. And if you search Google local, my firm's now like

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three or four down the list instead of the fourth page. So it's like the 54th firm there.

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And a lot of calls actually get generated that way. So those come straight into the firm.

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That's kind of one section.

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And that's tough because you're competing with some heavy hitters out there that are

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spending maybe $10,000 a month on the SEO stuff.

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Absolutely. Absolutely. Lots of big money there. I think that does help though, to be

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on the Google local end of it, because if you search near me, it'll bring up the map

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as opposed to just trying to get your website to the top of someone searching employment

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attorney. But still, yeah, a huge heavy hitter. You got to find some marketing firm was probably

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willing to put in more time than they should.

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And so, you know, before you were at your current firm, you did, you were at some other

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places beforehand was, was being able to go into more of the business side of law. And

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did that play into your decision to move at all? Or was it something else?

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No, it really, it really didn't. Part of how the business end thing became more of a focus

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point for me is that there was more, I think, and again, only love for the firm I was at

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prior. There was a little more room for me to grow because the firm was at its earlier

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stage, the firm that now. Because I came into the firm, it was already a somewhat established

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firm, but not to the extent where my first job at a law school where I spent a couple

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of years, that was a very established firm. So there were different times in their life

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cycle, different times in their life cycle.

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So do you enjoy practicing law more or do you enjoy the business of law more?

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I think it's got to be a mix because too much of either you start pounding your head against

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the wall. You know, I think of anything, it's better to kind of, you know, move from one

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to the other back and forth, back and forth. And I'm not talking about every five minutes,

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but either every day or every couple hours, that's the way you keep it fresh because if

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I'm just working on briefs, I'm just working on pushing cases, just doing conferences

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and arguments and preparing for trials, that's great. But the variety and I guess can give

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me a larger perspective of what the goal is, is the business end thing. It allows me to,

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okay, why am I pushing so these cases so hard? Where does that get me? It gives me the mile

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high view that, you know, really helped.

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This episode of the Bronx Attorney Broadcast was brought to you by me, Will Ferreiro. I'm

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an attorney of prior law right here in the Bronx, and we primarily practice in personal

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injury. However, we do also do a variety of areas of practice. So I can help you with

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just about any sort of legal issue that you might have. I'm admitted to practice both in

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New York and New Jersey. And if it's not something that I can personally help you with, I can

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connect you with someone in my network of attorneys who is best equipped to help you

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with your legal issue. You can find me on Instagram and on Twitter at Bronx Attorney.

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You can send me an email for a prior law or call me at the office 718-829-0222. And now

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back to the show.

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So has there been any unexpected challenges in transitioning from being just a lawyer

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to now, you know, thinking about the business side of things as well?

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There's absolutely been new frustrations that weren't there. So like anything, there's

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a learning curve to it. Part of it is the time management thing, because at least I

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think that the small, you know, boots on the ground kind of stuff of making sure that

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a case moves, whether it's doing things like pushing discovery, whether I'm doing discovery

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myself or someone else is in the office drafting it, whether it's poking the other side, phone

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call after phone call instead of depositions, because as you know, they're not calling us

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into court all the time now. You got to like, you got to like almost bug people into it's

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and moving forward as the case, the court's not holding our hand. So it's about how I

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spend my time, because I can spend a lot of time trying to pick up new cases, a lot of

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energy trying to pick up new cases and build the relationships with new clients. But if

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I'm not moving my other cases, then it's not going to work out. And there's a huge lag,

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a huge lag between the work you put into your cases. And most of the time, and when they

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actually turn into some sort of monetary value for you. So, you know, if you take if you

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take a two, three, four week break from pushing the cases on the ground level, then you're

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delaying, you know, a reward of money verdicts for four or five weeks, it's one in one. And

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so it's about how I'm going to spend my time. And I think that's one of the newest frustrations

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I've seen.

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And so do you have any, you know, specific goals outlined for yourself or for your business,

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that are shorter long term?

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Yeah, so it tends to be in the way we've been thinking about it in my office. And it might

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not be the most productive way to do it. But we think about it as a, we set a monetary

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goal. I'm not going to exactly put what that number is. But we want to move from a gross

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settlement of X amount to a gross settlement of Y amount.

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Per quarter or year or something.

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Yeah, per quarter. We think out of per quarter. And again, you know, we have an idea what

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that end of year number is, but per quarter kind of keeps us down to earth because that

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keeps us focusing on cases that we think we can settle to. So the last thing we want is

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a case sitting at the finish line. And all we got to do is make a couple calls and it

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eventually settle, or we got to get them to one IME and it'll settle. And so if we're

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thinking about a short term goal of a certain amount of money, we're looking at our cases

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and we're thinking, where can we make that much? And we'll open up a case, we'll tear

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it apart and we'll figure out, okay, well, you know, this, this case is great liability.

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Our clients, uh, those have a lot of emotional damages, but she needs some professional look

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at her and substantiate those. And if we push that, then in five or six weeks, we'll

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have a report from a, from a, from a treating psychologist or psychiatrist. And then it

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looks like a totally new case for an insurance company and then they'll be willing to settle.

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And it doesn't take a crazy amount of my time, but it does take actions. I have to call after.

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So those smaller goals in a lot of way keep me focused on moving cases.

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And so are you, do you want to be more of a trial attorney or do you want to be more

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of a office manager attorney? Do you have a preference?

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I want to be able to do both very well. Now, is it going to come a certain point where

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I'm going to have to pick one or the other? I think most of the time that's true. I mean,

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I've seen it at other firms where someone is basically the office manager, a very experienced

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attorney. And if they see a case that they really want to be engrossed in and they really

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think that this is the case where they could be helping, then they cherry pick the cases

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they want to work at. And I think that's a reasonable goal as the firm continues to grow.

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I think that, you know, eventually I might move into a more managerial position and I'm

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doing the mile high management of each case. And then if there's a case that needs kind

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of direct focus, that's when I would put on a different hat and move into that, that sector,

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there'd be trial, whether it be mediation or just settlement discussions, you know, sort

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of laser focusing on where my skillset might be needed.

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Is there anything in particular that you've been doing to try to become more knowledgeable

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about the business of law or managing a law firm or you just go and trial by fire?

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It's a combination. So, you know, first off, the internet is the most amazing thing ever

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and it's full of BS but also full of a lot of great management and even legal guidance

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because, you know, we're not exactly the first people to do this. And so everyone, and at

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one point, you know, they were all doing trial by trial by combat for this kind of stuff.

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But I try to take everything, see what works. There's a lot of nonsense you got to just

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start off the top and there's no way. I've seen some people talk about how they've just

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hired a whole bunch of completely remote legal assistants who I couldn't even tell you exactly

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what they do. And I don't know if I'd be comfortable with that. You know, I like to understand exactly

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what's going on. I don't need a micromanage but to outsource everything besides just the

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core, core legal stuff and not even know people that seems like advice I couldn't follow. But

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at the same time, I think that, you know, making everything digital to the highest point possible,

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you know, streamlining every process I could think of using the best, you know, organized

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organization technology. That's something that they and it was just over and over and over

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again and that's something to kind of pick up on.

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And how do you deal with being a young attorney? Because in this field, we're very much still

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in our infancy. Sometimes clients can get hesitant when they when they see that their

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attorney is only, you know, 29, 30 years old.

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Yeah, yeah, that's a real thing. What I will say, and maybe you feel differently, it's

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very rarely the client who has any doubts about the age situation. It tends to be the

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attorneys who have been practicing for 40 years and they see a new attorney and, you

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know, most of it, nine and a 10 are very nice, but it's that it's that last one who doesn't

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want to hear anything. When I'm talking about the client, most of them have never been in

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this situation or any situation at all. And so they want someone who first is willing

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to listen. And that's, you know, huge points for anyone who's willing to listen because

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I'm sure that plenty of other older trainees who have been in this in this field for a

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long time and it's probably not their fault. They've probably just, you know, after a while

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this field will you've heard it all. And so you may not give everything as much time as

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really needed. But most of the time, the clients are kind of, you know, glued to me or you

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know, because we're a gold mine information. They've never been through this process anymore

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and they're feel out of their element that you could be whatever age you want. But if

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you're feeling out of your element, you're, you're, you're, this is something new. It's

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going to be scary. But they'll, they'll respect what you have to say. So I think that the

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clients, yeah, they'll see someone younger and especially when I first came out of law

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school, it would feel like, oh, you know, they, I'd have to tell them otherwise they

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wouldn't know. Now they, now they assume. So it's gotten easier in that sense for sure.

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But they tend to respect the fact that you're listening and you have the information that

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can really help them.

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Right. Right. Yeah. I had a couple clients a few years ago that they were like, you're

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a lawyer? Are you sure? You're pretty young. And I'm like, no, I'm sure. And then after

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the intake, they were like, okay, you know what you're talking about. I feel better now.

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Right. That's, that's, that's 80, 90% of the battle that, you know, they got to just

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feel confident in you. Yeah. And that gets you there.

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So then how do you deal with the, the opposing council that may have been practicing in that

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jurisdiction for 40 years and tries to, to be a little bit of a bully with you?

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Oh boy, I don't know if 100% there's an answer to that. 60 or guns for sure. You know, most

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of the time, they're pretty much every time it's not personal and they take jabs at everyone

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and it's their attitudes towards the whole thing. And so if you show them most of the

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time that you just roll in with the punches and you're not pretending, you know, people

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can tell when you're pretending to know things. So that, that's never really worked for me.

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Just if you don't know something, do your best at it. People tend to respect that. But

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yeah, there's plenty of people out there and they're in a vast, vast minority, but you

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know, they've been doing this forever. And even when the things change around them, they'll

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still insist that it's done a certain way. Right.

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And I guess, I guess a lot's changing now with, with the virtual court, you kind of

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evening the playing field with those, with those older attorneys.

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More than evening the playing field, because not only did we end up in the virtual court

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wherever they, it's different, but they changed a lot of the local rules to adjust for them

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and the way the conference is working, the way the jury selection works. And so it's

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all, a lot of it's new. And so it really evens it, you know, they don't know, we don't know,

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but we know how to use a lot of the zoom functions a lot better.

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Is there anything that sticks out from your legal career as, as, you know, some of your

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best successes so far?

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What really sticks to me and like I said, I do a lot of the employment discrimination

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cases. And with those cases, you can really build a case that's normally a five or six

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in value. And if you really put in the time, you can make it like a nine or a 10. And with

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those cases, things tend to be extra personal. Someone lost their job because of discrimination

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or sexual harassment or, you know, they were, they were unlawfully, wrongfully terminated.

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And so, you know, just like when people have physical injuries, their world collapses and

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they're left kind of emotionally scarred. And so you tend to, when you're helping a

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client and you're really putting the time, really get to know them. And so if when you,

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whatever it's working with them or it's me or whatever it is, really pushes their case

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to the next tier where it should be. And a lot of firms won't put in the time to push

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it to the next tier. And, you know, the client doesn't always know that another attorney

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wouldn't push it to the next tier. But when you do, you know, you can see in the client

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the difference it makes in their lives. Because if you get them an extra $70,000, because

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you spent a whole bunch of extra hours on the case, it makes a huge difference. That's

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really what's fixed. Because the stories in these cases are, you know, with a negative

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connotation riveting in the sense that, you know, it's, it's the kind of behavior and

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dramatic that you hope only exists on TV, but, you know, these people have been through

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a lot. So those are the kind of things that stick with you. And oftentimes those aren't

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the cases that you are, you're on appeal and win. Those aren't the cases that you bring

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to trial. A lot of times those are the cases that you make very strong in the beginning.

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And get all the groundwork done and they settle. And so there's no long story with it, you

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know, where we worked for four years and then prevailed. It's that we worked for eight months

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and prevailed early. So we didn't have to drag it out for the next three years. So that's

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kind of really what's fixed.

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Is there anything in particular that you do to increase it from that, you know, B level

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case to an A level case for you?

344
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Sure. So in those employment discrimination cases specifically, there's those two types

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of damages, right? There's, or broadly there's two types of damages. There's other damages

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that the court really awards, but they tend to be lost wages and emotional distress. Now

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emotional distress is where you really have a lot of room to make a case stronger. A lot

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of times when these people are wrongfully terminated or sexually harassed at work or based on race

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harassed at work, there's a lot of emotional damage there. But the only way that a judge

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or a jury or opposing counsel or insurance companies making these evaluations really take

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it seriously is if there's some sort of treatment with a mental health professional, so there's

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documentation and then there's often needed a report and analysis with diagnosis and shows

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causation. So the emotional distress that person is suffering. We have a professional that's

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able to analyze and say, yeah, the emotional stress came from the employment issue and

355
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not from just the other stressors of life.

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And so that's kind of the fungible, the part that you can really make a difference is if

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you put the time, you can make a case from a class B to a class A. And it's often a tough

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subject to talk about with the clients because, you know, eight out of 10 clients have never

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sought any sort of mental health counseling in their entire life, which is why often,

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you know, you get to know these people a little more because they'll open up to you and you

361
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are suggesting it and so that's a big part of increasing the value of your employment

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discrimination case.

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What would you say the most rewarding aspect of your job is?

364
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If I could think of a specific thing, what comes to mind? Yeah, generally, but what comes

365
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to mind is the look of relief when someone in the employment realm of relief when a case

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settles. So, and the only time I'm normally there for it, because a lot of times it happens

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by phone, but in these mediation, all right, so we're sitting around a conference room

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and back and forth all day with numbers and the client sitting there and, you know, it

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could be a seven hour process and they've been thinking about this law student's been

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looming a little bit. And so when we kindly come to a number, a great number that they're

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happy with and we tell them, all right, we're done, congratulations. They just not, they're

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not expecting that kind of relief when they hear that. And so you could like visibly see

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that kind of relief that now they can give themselves more of a permission not to think

374
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about the toll incident. Right, right.

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That's a big thing. And so you almost see, and you know, it's not a cure, money never

376
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is, but you could see the stress kind of just leak out of them when you hear that. So that's

377
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a nice little, you know, cherry on top.

378
00:32:59,740 --> 00:33:05,440
And so what kind of advice would you have to a young attorney who might be, you know,

379
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in a position where they're, you know, they're working out a firm, they're kind of a cog

380
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in the machine and they want to make a transition to either opening their own law firm or going

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to one where, you know, they might have some more say and they might have to, you know,

382
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they get some sort of ownership interest in return, you know, and they're thinking about

383
00:33:25,480 --> 00:33:29,160
making that leap. What would you say to somebody in that position?

384
00:33:29,160 --> 00:33:35,880
Of course. So first thing that comes to mind is that not every job on every firm is going

385
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to have that opportunity. And someone could drive themselves crazy, you know, in a larger

386
00:33:43,480 --> 00:33:49,320
firm trying to make that opportunity exist. So if you're in a firm with 200 attorneys

387
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and you're trying to make it so that you're a partner in that firm, I don't know how far

388
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you're going to get. You might have to work your entire life to do that. And if you want

389
00:33:58,600 --> 00:34:02,720
it to happen sooner or as a later, you might have to go to a smaller firm because in a

390
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smaller firm, sort of what I was getting that earlier, you can make that big difference

391
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based on how you spend your time in the office. And so you get a little taste of it by working

392
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hard, doing the right things, pushing cases. And then, you know, if the time is right and

393
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you feel like you created that leverage by, you know, being a huge part of that firm,

394
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you can approach, you know, whoever your supervisor is, your bosses and kind of feel the water

395
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for that kind of thing. I mean, especially in smaller firms, there's no parting fast

396
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rules. There's a lot less norms. So if you're in a huge, you know, white shoe firm, you're

397
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not exactly going to walk up to a partner as a junior associate and be like, Hey, I

398
00:34:49,680 --> 00:34:54,280
think I'm ready to be a partner. It's not going to be like, All right, what's going

399
00:34:54,280 --> 00:34:55,280
on here?

400
00:34:55,280 --> 00:34:58,760
You know, that or like, Hey, I'm thinking about shaking some stuff up. What do you think?

401
00:34:58,760 --> 00:35:03,760
Yeah, it's not going to get you anywhere. So if you're at a smaller firm where things

402
00:35:03,760 --> 00:35:11,520
are even more flexible, and no one's going to, no one's going to probably, you know,

403
00:35:11,520 --> 00:35:17,720
give you too much shit for trying to make things better most of the time. If you're

404
00:35:17,720 --> 00:35:21,120
at a healthy environment, you know, if you're in a healthy environment, people want things

405
00:35:21,120 --> 00:35:27,240
to get better, people want to make more money. And so at the right place, at a smaller firm,

406
00:35:27,240 --> 00:35:31,280
you know, if you're trying to do it from the inside, and that's the way that I did it,

407
00:35:31,280 --> 00:35:34,560
you know, I didn't start off with something brand new, which I'm sure is very, very tough,

408
00:35:34,560 --> 00:35:39,600
but I'm sure very doable. You got to just kind of take the leap and speak about it,

409
00:35:39,600 --> 00:35:43,440
which is the hard thing to do, but probably worth it.

410
00:35:43,440 --> 00:35:48,480
And so when you were still an associate, did you approach the owner of the law firm and

411
00:35:48,480 --> 00:35:52,560
you know, say, you know, I'm thinking about changing up some processes or trying some

412
00:35:52,560 --> 00:35:56,920
new advertising schemes? Like, did you approach them with things like that?

413
00:35:56,920 --> 00:36:07,760
Yeah, bit by bit. So luckily, you know, the attorneys that I was working with were sort

414
00:36:07,760 --> 00:36:13,480
of drawing it out of me in many ways. And so once they started doing a little bit, that's

415
00:36:13,480 --> 00:36:18,040
when I took the steering wheel and I was like, Hey, we need to try to change this and this.

416
00:36:18,040 --> 00:36:21,760
And you know, not everything sucks. There were certain things that just didn't work

417
00:36:21,760 --> 00:36:26,320
because we didn't have the energy to put them in at that time or we're extra busy at the

418
00:36:26,320 --> 00:36:31,080
time. It's something that we should try when we're less busy, if that ever happens. Or

419
00:36:31,080 --> 00:36:36,080
on the flip side, there were certain things that people just weren't ready to try. And

420
00:36:36,080 --> 00:36:41,440
it would have taken a lot more effort for them to learn the process than me because

421
00:36:41,440 --> 00:36:46,880
one, I probably created it. And two, you know, people come from different backgrounds and

422
00:36:46,880 --> 00:36:53,040
it's not how people work. And you know, so there's no harm. There shouldn't be harm in

423
00:36:53,040 --> 00:36:57,360
a healthy environment, a healthy law firm in bringing up what you think are positive changes

424
00:36:57,360 --> 00:37:01,560
and ban them around. It's kind of worth that risk and looking for that environment.

425
00:37:01,560 --> 00:37:07,600
Is there anything else that you'd like to share that we didn't touch on already?

426
00:37:07,600 --> 00:37:17,080
Not a huge amount. One last thing that I want to just, you know, clear up. And you know,

427
00:37:17,080 --> 00:37:23,400
when it comes to the employment stuff, and we get these calls all the time. And this

428
00:37:23,400 --> 00:37:28,080
is like, this is like a main sticking thing. And this will help any attorney who's doing

429
00:37:28,080 --> 00:37:36,640
an employment, you know, have that memo that you can explain the law to because the call

430
00:37:36,640 --> 00:37:43,240
we get over and over again is that the caller was wrongfully terminated. And that term wrongfully

431
00:37:43,240 --> 00:37:48,280
terminated is kind of a loaded term because wrong, right and wrong, you know, they're

432
00:37:48,280 --> 00:37:53,160
quote please, they're not, they're not a legal term. And it's not the same thing as unlawfully

433
00:37:53,160 --> 00:38:00,600
terminated. Okay. So become good at explaining that to clients and create shortcuts, create

434
00:38:00,600 --> 00:38:05,680
shortcuts because unless it's discrimination for a certain category of mutual trade like

435
00:38:05,680 --> 00:38:12,280
race or a whistleblower, like you said, it might be wrong for them to fire an employee

436
00:38:12,280 --> 00:38:17,160
because they got mustard on their shirt and that that boss just hates mustard. You know,

437
00:38:17,160 --> 00:38:21,080
this crazy guy who hates mustard, but it's not, it's not illegal. It's wrong. It's not

438
00:38:21,080 --> 00:38:27,000
illegal. Unfair is not illegal. Wrong is not illegal. And so, and that's kind of where

439
00:38:27,000 --> 00:38:30,600
I ended, you know, just make sure keep the mustard off the shirt.

440
00:38:30,600 --> 00:38:34,880
Yeah. And I think that's good for any attorney to know so that, you know, they can, you know,

441
00:38:34,880 --> 00:38:38,720
if they're a real estate firm and one of their clients mentioned something that happened,

442
00:38:38,720 --> 00:38:42,600
it's good to be able to sniff out a good case, right?

443
00:38:42,600 --> 00:38:43,600
Absolutely.

444
00:38:43,600 --> 00:38:45,440
That way they can send them over to you.

445
00:38:45,440 --> 00:38:50,200
Right. We'll take care of them. We'll explain the laws to them and, you know, we'll take

446
00:38:50,200 --> 00:38:52,040
good care of everyone.

447
00:38:52,040 --> 00:38:56,560
And so, you know, if somebody is discriminated against or, you know, if they're in an accident

448
00:38:56,560 --> 00:38:59,560
and for whatever reason they don't want to call me, where can they find you?

449
00:38:59,560 --> 00:39:06,240
Oh, they can find me at topflangittleman.com or they can email me directly at Joshua at

450
00:39:06,240 --> 00:39:10,080
ddtlaw.com. It's delta, delta tangolaw.com.

451
00:39:10,080 --> 00:39:12,920
All right, Josh, thanks a lot. Nice talking to you.

452
00:39:12,920 --> 00:39:15,920
Yeah. Thanks. Have a good one. Have a good one.

453
00:39:15,920 --> 00:39:19,920
Thank you for listening to this episode of the Bronx Attorney Broadcast. Please like,

454
00:39:19,920 --> 00:39:24,280
review and subscribe so we can help the channel continue to grow. And if you're interested

455
00:39:24,280 --> 00:39:36,560
in connecting with any of the guests, please let me know and I'd be happy to make the introduction.