all right all right season two baby technically
kind of did we just make up our own seasons because
we are back and we're calling in season two episode
one very special episode what's up charlie what's
up yes we did just you know we're calling it
season two we're calling it season two like are
there actual seasons with podcasts i don't even
know if that's a thing it is but you know what
we eclipsed the the 10 episode mark so we figured
hey let's Let's start over in season two. We
did take a little break. You know, no one likes
us. We had some bails on interviews. And so things
kept getting pushed back. So we do apologize
for being away for a while. But this is Value
Nation. Without further ado, we are here. Season
two. We made it. Episode one. coming at you.
We have a very special guest, and it's kind of
perfect timing for everything that's going on
in the business right now. Again, hey, Schwartz,
again, you're outnumbered. We got another Ohio
guy coming in. Stay tuned. Everybody, we got
a certified appraiser, financial guru. You see
him wearing a black belt every now and again,
mixing it up on the mats. And bless his heart,
he's a Bengals faithful. We have Michael Kirk,
our chief innovative officer. Innovative? Innovation.
Innovation. Anyways, hey, round of applause.
Welcome. Welcome to the show. Thank you. Thanks
for having me, guys. And yeah, I am a huge Bengals
fan. Hey, listen, I feel your pain. I'm a Browns
fan. We haven't gone down this path yet over
a couple beers, but eventually we will. We'll
talk about it. We'll have a therapy session.
All right, so, Mr. Kirk, you are a little, let's
give the fans a little bit about you, right?
um like to do that get a little more to know
you uh you have two kids is that correct yeah
i i was actually surprised it sounds like you
guys have done a little bit of homework um i
don't we do deep dives yeah yeah i don't really
put out that i um took karate for many years
so i'm not sure if i have a feeling i know who
may have mentioned that to you but So anyway,
yeah, two kids, both in college and one out of
the house and actually the other one moving out
in August. They're going to be empty nesters
here soon. Start throwing some travels and parties.
Travel time. Yeah. Turn one of those bedrooms
into a dojo. There you go. Are you really a black
belt? How many years have you been a black belt?
Yeah, I'm a second degree black belt in Shotokan
karate. I can't believe I literally have kept
this out of the industry for a long time. Breaking
news. Thank you for that. Yeah, it's been, I
actually started training when I was, I don't
know, 10. years old and all the way through,
really through college and got my first degree,
I think when I was six, 16. And then actually
got after college, got married, started an appraisal
business, got busy, kind of got away from it.
And then my son wanted to take it when he was
around that same, you know, nine, 10 and kind
of pulled me back in. And then I went for my
second degree. So it hasn't been actually that
long ago, but today could kick you still probably
in the knees and it would hurt pretty bad. I'm
not sure I could kick much higher right now,
but it's all about. The discipline and the defense
though. I mean, obviously to get to that point,
you have to have a lot of discipline, body control.
And I mean, it's kind of a defense first, more
type skill that you learn anyways, correct? It
really is. Yeah. Shotokan is actually like fighting
is the last resort type of thing. And I'll tell
you, it's really great for kids. I think I started
six or seven, got to yellow belt. And then I
had multiple other distractions, like other sports
and other activities that kind of just took away
from it. But from what I do remember, yeah, you
know, talking about the discipline and that kind
of thing. I mean, you can use that in every day
life, right? Some of the way that they teach
you to just, you know, you look inside or you
take a step back and you're not so reactive,
right? I mean, you're not jumping down someone's
throat first. You're kind of, you're waiting
it out. I'm trying to keep a level head, all
those things. So, I mean, that's really awesome.
I mean, you should share that. Put it out there.
Makes you a little more intimidating. Gives you
a little edge, too. I need a little bit of that
in the appraisal business. Yeah, maybe. So you
were a Cincinnati guy through and through. Went
to school there. Still live there. You still
cheering on your Bearcats, even when they lose
to Xavier? Yeah, I figured Xavier would come
up as well. But yeah, definitely a Bearcat fan.
So, yeah, I went to actually my wife and I both.
attended UC. Both of our kids have attended UC.
My son's actually finished. He finished up his
capstone project in IT today, just a few hours
ago. So he's going to be graduating here shortly,
hopefully finding a job soon. So if you know
anybody, let me know. But yeah, my daughter's
gone on to NKU now and in business. And yeah,
things are going well. Can't complain since he's
been good to us. That's great. All right, well,
let's get down to To some of the nitty gritty,
the juicy stuff. It's a business. Why everybody's
here to listen to you and all your knowledge.
So you were brought to Nationwide primarily because
of your expertise in this, you know, the alternative
valuation space. So with you and Chad Carroll,
who's the head of operations for the Alt Vals,
you guys have, you know, stood up this entire
department for us and got it up and running,
you know, worked through all the kinks on the
backside to make sure that it's exactly what.
we're going to need to be successful for the
long -term, right? So without getting too in
-depth from the jump, basically these products
are there to separate out the data collection
from the actual valuation process, right? And
so can you give everybody just a little insight
on how this works? Yeah, yeah, that's correct.
So the new alternate valuation division was really
built, you said the focus on... any product that
falls outside the traditional space, right? So
in fact, I think we're headed towards a time
where traditional will kind of become the alternative
valuation. It's going to take a while, right?
But we're seeing that path kind of take shape,
if you will. And so most of the products that
we offer separate the data collection from the
valuation piece. And so what do we mean by that?
Again, without going too far in the weeds, but
we're sending out a professional, well -trained.
This is not just a pizza delivery person, right?
This is a well -trained professional, typically
holds a license. a real estate license of some
type that we'll go out and collect that data.
And then we allow the raiser to place the valuation
on the back end on the products that need it.
So that's kind of at a high level. And that's
pretty much every product that we touch in our
space has that bifurcation process built in.
You're saying like an Uber driver couldn't moonlight
as an inspector? They could, but not with us.
Yeah, we are really trying to make sure, and
we are making sure that we have professionals
on that panel. And, you know, Chad and I have
been doing this for a long time. hear me talk
about these products being around for a while,
but, you know, it's in the home equity space
and the REO and some of the other areas we've
been, you know, China, I've been working on these
for almost 20 years and other areas. So it's
funny that a lot of people are talking about
this being something new and it is in the first
mortgage space, relatively new, but we have a
lot of experience that we're able to bring to
the table. And we have a lot of folks that, you
know, love doing this type of work. And so we're
pretty excited about what we've built here. nationwide.
So quick, quick side question on top of that.
So you had said, you know, it separates the data
collection from the valuation itself. And so
then is there some valuations that are automated
like an ABM or something along those lines as
well that could be a product like this encompasses
anything like that, correct? Yeah, that's correct.
So you're exactly right. So we do have ABM products
in our home equity lineup, for example, where
we pair that ABM with a property data collection
report. Sometimes they're known as PCRs, property
condition reports. We call ours PDRs. And so
we pair that together. We do a reconciliation
on the back end of that. But again, it's a bifurcated
process. Value on one side and data collection,
then we merge that together. We have our own
version of our desktop appraisal that we're using
in those areas. And then it's really, if you
think about it, it's that same process, no matter
if we're doing one for a home equity loan or
if we're putting it on one of the GSE forms,
right? technology, the app that's used on the
front end to collect the data. We put some guardrails
around that to make sure that the data collector
is getting the information they need. If they
see something that, you know, if they put down
that there's some damage that prompts for a photo,
it really guides them through the whole time.
The nice thing about it is when the data collection
process is done, when they're walking back over
that threshold of the house, they hit submit,
it comes back. We're actually doing a QC process
of that data. before we send it over to an appraiser
in the case of a desktop, for example, or hybrid.
And then when we get that back, we're going to
second QC. So it's a, these products I've been,
I'm kind of a nerd when it comes to these appraisal
products. And I'm just going to say it now, but
I've been waiting for this in the first mortgage
space, because like I said, we've been using
these, I've been using these as a lender. I've
used them as an appraiser out in the field. I've
just kind of been on all sides of this and it's.
Pretty exciting to see it kind of take shape
in the first mortgage space because we know they
work. We know that there's tons of portfolios
out there that lenders have been holding in home
equity, for example, with these products with
no greater risk. And so it's just exciting to
kind of see some different products coming out
in this first mortgage space that has really
been lagging the market when it comes to modernization.
So you had mentioned the term GSE. So as far
as what could be used as just a straight alternative
valuation product? and what the GSE forms, the
GSE kind of program is, what's kind of the layman's
terms on what those mean and what the kind of
differences are there. Sure. So, you know, like
I said, alternative valuations have been around
for decades in home equity. And so just to kind
of level set, you know, we've had the EVMs, we've
had typically each vendor has their own proprietary
desktop form that they've created for the handful
of vendors that have really taken over some market
share in that area. And then the GSEs come along
and they obviously need to standardize the process,
right, as much as possible. So even though there's
a little bit of a difference between the data
set currently that Fannie collects versus Freddie.
it's very close to being standardized and quite
frankly, will be standardized here soon. There's
an initiative to make that happen. They have
agreed to the same form. And so what we're seeing
in the first mortgage space that's different
is that Fannie and Freddie have come together
with basically the same form, even though they
get to it a little differently through the data
set and some of the photos and things. And so
in the first mortgage space, there have been
programs that have come out, for example, with
Freddie. It's the ACE plus PDR. And then with
Fannie Mae, we're announcing here, I think today,
what everybody's been talking about, which is
value acceptance plus property data. So we're
pretty excited about that. And I think it's really
going to continue to kind of change the industry
as we move forward. Talk about a segue for you
there, Charlie. I know he just, it's a layup
from there. I mean, it was like he knew what
was coming. It's crazy. This guy is so, he's
so dialed in. It's a lot of meditation, a lot
of training at the dojo. It's the discipline.
There it is. It's the discipline. So yeah, like
you mentioned, you know, the big news this week
is Fannie Mae announcing the value accepted and
that finally going live to everybody. So, you
know, lenders will be able to, they'll see a
new prompt. when they're submitting new loans
for approval and know whether it's going to qualify
right so can you give like a you know brief overview
of what that means and you know most importantly
is reiterate nationwide is approved with Fannie
Mae to be able to prepare some of these For the
lender partners, correct? So, yes, we're absolutely
an approved AMC to provide the product, which
is called value acceptance. Our portion will
be value acceptance plus property data, right?
Because if it's just a regular value acceptance,
there's really nothing else is needed and we
can talk about that. But so it's value acceptance
plus property data. And that program was really
put in place. And let me back up and say. Also,
the date again. You're right. April 15th is when
it rolls out. I believe that's on a Sunday. That's
typical to kind of start on Sunday. And then
it usually will start seeing orders on that following
Monday. So it goes into place. It allows for
lenders that go into DU and get, you know, they
will actually go in and see that they've got
an offering of a value acceptance plus property
data. They'll come to an approved vendor like
Nationwide, order that property data. We obviously...
have built out the technology. We have the app
to go out and collect the data that's needed
for that. We're going to be connected to Fannie
Mae through an API to send that back to them,
which is required. And then the lender will actually
receive a copy of a PDF of the data that was
sent to Fannie Mae. And so the nice thing about
this program is that while the lender still has
to make sure that the property is eligible, right?
Just no different than they would if they had
a 1004 for Fannie Mae. they have to make sure
it meets eligibility requirements. But Fannie
has come out and said that, you know, as long
as the property is in decent condition, meaning
that it's not in, you know, say C6, that lender
can move forward with that. And so the exciting
part about that piece, just to pause on that
for a second, is that, you know, there have been
programs in the past where the lender is required
to do a lot more. And like I said, eligibility.
check condition, the model is already built that
as long as the property is not in C6, that it's
pretty much like ready, ready to go. And so Even
though there's a version of this where the lender
could have to order a hybrid appraisal on the
back end, I don't think it's going to happen.
Fannie has suggested it's not going to happen
very often. So this is like, if you get one of
these, it's like a free pass almost. So you get
the pass go with just the property data and move
forward, right? With a large percentage of these.
So that's going to be a game changer for a lot
of our clients. So you mentioned with what you're
talking about, value acceptance basically replacing
appraisal waivers? Yeah, that's exactly right.
So value acceptance itself is the waiver that
Fannie has been offering. And so if you looked
at it on a chart, it would start with value acceptance,
which would be a full waiver, if you will. Nothing
else is needed. And then there's another version
where Fannie has looked at their models and said,
you know what? We have enough from a credit standpoint.
We feel pretty good about. that if the models
are correct about the collateral that we know
what the value is as long as we know what the
condition is and so we're going to send it out
as a value acceptance plus property data and
that information then will come back to feed
back in to to the data set if you will and they
can move forward with that like i said a large
percentage and then there's going to be a a very
smaller subset from what we understand that if
for some reason the condition is not what they
think it is or there's an eligibility issue,
then it could be upgraded to a hybrid appraisal.
And by the way, we are absolutely able to provide
those to our clients as well. So they start with
the value acceptance plus property data. For
some reason, it needs to get flipped to a hybrid.
We can simply go back and send that. data over
to the local appraiser, finish up the hybrid,
and get it back to the client. So we have a seamless
operation there. We're good to go there. The
clients also have the ability to go back and
order a 1004, but at that point you would kind
of be starting over. So I recommend that they
go to a hybrid and we can facilitate that. very
easily through the workflows that we have built
out today. Yeah, since the inspection already
took place for the PDR, and then that gets sent
over to the appraiser for the hybrid desktop.
That's right. And another good thing is our ops
team, like... We've been in, we've actually been
involved in some of the pilots that are, you
know, not so secret anymore at the beginning.
It was kind of top secret stuff. The Fannie and
Freddie were doing pilots with hybrid appraisals
and other things. And, you know, that was the,
that's been the joke recently. I've heard Freddie
talk about it, that, you know, it's not, not
so much a secret anymore that that had been going
on for a few years. And, and so Chad, myself
and others involved in this process, we have
been involved in those pilots in the past. this
is new to us. We have done every piece. We've
done the data collection. We've done the hybrid
appraisals. And so this is kind of just kind
of getting back to what we've done in the past.
And so we're very excited about it. Like I said,
I've been waiting for the first mortgage side
to catch up. I think that we are going to end
up down the road and not too far distance where
we have this value acceptance. We have the value
acceptance list property data. And then we have
just like that hybrid appraisal that gets ordered,
not as an upgrade, but sometimes we just need
a hybrid. And then we'll have the 1004 as kind
of the cleanup. So I kind of see that. And then
we got the desktop that fits in somewhere. Although
I think once hybrid comes in, that desktop may
not be needed as much. But if there's already
a floor plan out there, then obviously the desktop,
that's no inspection. No inspections needed on
that. So I think you're seeing really what. Again,
the secondary, Martin, what home equity lenders
and other folks have been doing for a long time,
I think you're starting to see that full breadth
of products, depending on your credit risk and,
quite frankly, your collateral risk, right, as
well. What do they already have in their data
set? And then what makes sense to move forward
from there? Yeah, I've seen a lot of this, a
lot of movement, actually, in the private money
sector, too, with these kind of products, right?
And it's from the standpoint of speed and efficiency.
whether it's a one or two value report, these
have been pretty attractive over the last couple
of weeks. So it's awesome that we have them to
provide. Yeah, you're right. That's a huge market.
Another area that that area and I've played in
the REO space, the full space where we've built
products, you know, just for those areas with
special addendums, you know, obviously. Sometimes
you need rent rolls, you need, sometimes you
need current condition and the budget to, you
know, what that's going to look like after they
do those repairs. So you got the as is and as
repaired with the budget. And so we put together
all those different things. And so the nice thing
about this is that we're not just saying, you
know, we would just say that Mike is alternate
evaluation, whatever, but we're saying chief
innovation officer, because I get the sandbox
that. we get to build these cool tools in right
and so we've built a lot of stuff already and
we've already got I've already got several products
kind of in the hopper that we're working on as
well, including draw inspections and some other
things. So it's pretty exciting for our clients
to bring a problem to us and for us to take the
tools that we have and be able to help solve
those problems. And that's really what is the
most exciting part, I think, about this new division
and the focus that we have. Yeah, I'd say so.
It's pretty sweet. I mean, anybody can come to
us basically and say, hey, this is what we're
lending on. This is kind of what we have in mind.
It kind of fits outside the standard box of what
other lenders are doing. You know, can you provide
this for us? And we say, yeah, we don't have
exactly what you're looking for right now, but
I'm pretty sure we can tweak and build something
around it. Yeah, that's huge. That's huge for
us because we haven't to date. I mean, we haven't
been able to really bring that kind of customization
to a lot of the different lenders we've been
working with over the years. So to have that
now, sure as what I've been with Nationwide for
five plus years, you've been right around the
same, right? I can't remember this one. Yeah,
so it's been a long time coming. Like innovation
in our business, like it needs to happen, you
know, from inside out. So yeah, without having
to outsource to, you know. Yeah, exactly. Having
tons of different third -party vendors that are
coming in, you know, be able to do it in -house,
have our name stamped on it. It means a lot and
it's huge. Yeah, it's been fun and we're just
getting started. That's the exciting part about
this. you know, I ask our clients just to keep
bringing those problems to us because that's
what, that's what I enjoy going is working through
those. And obviously we have Chad who is great
on the operation side. He is, you know, he's
managed probably a couple million alternative
valuation products through his career, which
is just mind blowing. So there's not much he
hasn't seen. So it was, it's pretty wild, but
yeah, there's not really anything that us as
internal folks or our external clients you know
can bring to him that he hasn't already seen
or dealt with right and so that's a that's a
big advantage for us as well so so basically
To round it out, you're saying it doesn't matter
if you're a credit union, private money lender,
bank with portfolio loans, first mortgage -based,
selling secondary. If you're looking to do something
outside the norm of a standard 1004, 1073, we
have the products to help you get it done. And
if we don't have that exact product, I'm pretty
sure the guru can help put one together for us.
Yes, that's exactly what we're saying. We are
excited to be in this space. We have so many
products out there today that are... helping
our clients, you know, cut costs, be more efficient,
decrease return times, all while, you know, still
managing the risk, not increasing the risk. So
we're very excited about that. And yes, like
I said, I literally have, I think there's three
different projects I'm working on right now that
clients have brought something and said, this
isn't working well for us today. You know, we're
using traditional, we're using... somebody else
to do this and this would be helpful. And we're
working through those problems and figuring out
a solution to those. And so that's what we're
here for. So just ask that folks reach out to
their account executive and get a hold of us.
And we'd love to do a demo for folks if they
want to see more about our products as well.
That's where I spend a lot of my time. It's just
educating our clients as a subject matter expert
on these products, as well as let's not forget
the regulations right around using evaluations
and appraisals. And so I've got a long history
of making sure that we fit within the box and
the guidelines on those as well. I keep up with
all the appraisal regulations, which is not something
that's fun to do, but it's needed for our clients
as well. Awesome. Yeah. And if any of you listeners
out there, if you haven't been in contact with
any of your reps or AEs, you can always reach
out to sales at nationwideamc .com and that'll
get rounded to the correct person. to Kirk's
team or anybody else that can help get that conversation
rolling and, you know, talk about demo or whatever
kind of information you may need. All right,
Swiercy, want to do some rapid rush requests?
Ooh, rapid rush requests. Starting you off with
our standard questions, Apple or iPhone or Android.
I'm an Apple guy and we're an Apple family here,
the entire family. And Charlie is still the odd
man out. Steady out number here. I will tell
you that our technology, our app that we utilize,
we'll work on both. So Charlie, you could do
some data collection for us. Perfect. Ooh, a
little side hustle. With the proper training,
sir. That's true. I'm not saying we would hire
him. I'm just saying he has the equipment that
would work. He'd be capable of doing it. All
right. So Cincinnati, we got to talk about Skyline
Chili. Oh. I love that place. I miss it. So tell
me, are you a... Do you go three ways, four or
five? Three way. Three way. And get this, a little
bit of mustard in my three way now. My daughter
actually works at Skyline right now through a
college job. And she turned me on. Some of her
customers were asking for mustard. And you get
mustard on the Coney's, right? That's standard.
But I never thought about it on the three -way,
and it actually adds a whole other dimension.
It's not much. It's just a little dab in the
spaghetti. It just adds a whole other flavor
profile. So I highly encourage you to try that.
I'm going to do it. I'm going to do it. I've
got to provide an outsider's perspective here.
No, I've never had it. I've never had it. But,
you know, like listening to sports radio and
stuff here, every time the Chiefs still play
the Bengals, Skyline Chili always comes up. And
it's about 90 % of the people who have tried
it to talk on the radio, they don't understand
it. Yeah, if you're not from here, you don't
get it. I mean, there's a lot of local foods
like that, right? I'm sure you guys can think
of others. But I find that they either love it
or hate it. Most of them hate it if they're not
from here. But the ones that it's not like, oh,
it was okay. Usually they're like, man, that's
really, really good. for somehow they have a
taste for that but if you didn't grow up around
here you're probably quite frankly not gonna
not gonna like it it's a it's a different taste
nobody from texas is ever gonna like um skyline
chili i don't think because they think of chili
it's something completely different to them when
you say the word chili um and then most people
are like you put it over spaghetti it just doesn't
make sense right but that's kind of the same
thing here then yeah when i think chili i think
big thick hearty you know full of meat beans
and all kinds of stuff like it's not it couldn't
be used as a sauce really you know yeah that's
funny no it's it's gonna this is a fight that's
gonna just keep happening the i think the thing
that people get most grossed out about when they
hear that they're not trying to just hear someone
describing it is when you mentioned that there's
some cinnamon in the recipe, right? That's what
I've heard is that cinnamon taste. Yeah, so it
kind of weirds people out as well. It all goes
together somehow. Oh, my gosh, it works, and
it really is. All right, and last but not least,
will the Cincinnati Reds finish at or above .500
this season? No. We both share the pain on that
one. The Royals are pathetic. You guys can come
like my guardians if you want for the season.
You can just have fun beating up on us, what,
like 14, 15 times this year? How many times do
you play interdivision? But you're welcome for
those wins. We need them all. We need every one
of them. Appreciate it. Very helpful. Appreciate
it, guys. Thanks, Michael. How about that, Mike
Kirk? So much information. Oh, man, he's got
just – I know he's got so much more he wants
to talk about. No, it was good. But it was great,
yeah. It was a lot of good information. And I
hope everybody listening got to enjoy that and
learned a little bit and is aware that we got
it. We're ready. Nationwide. Whatever you need.
We're right beside you. Right beside you. Oh,
we need a banner. It's back for season two. It's
back. So make sure to go like, subscribe on all
of our social media channels per use. Really
appreciate all the listeners out there. And if
you do need some more information on the alternate
evaluations, reach out to your AE rep or you
can email us at sales, all of us, sales at nationwideamc
.com. Value accepted. Peace.