Hey, I'm Matt Brownell.
And I'm Van Owens.
And I'm Tim Adams.
Welcome to Climbing the Mountain, where we dive into the scriptures and discuss themes,
connections, and real life application.
We're kicking off a series here where we're going to examine the Sermon on the Mount and
discuss implications for this teaching for Christians today.
Welcome back to the pod, everyone.
Appreciate you joining us again.
Last time we talked about generosity.
We talked about how we would change if we were generous, both as individuals and as
a community.
We talked about getting rid of the us against the world mentality.
And ultimately, we talked about what keeps us from being generous, which is fear.
We get so afraid of what we lose that we decide not to be generous and just hold on to everything.
This time on the pod, we're going to hopefully finish this section and the Sermon on the
Mount.
We'll see where the discussion goes.
But it's been a ton of fun, and it's been very illuminating to talk through this and
wrestle with this.
And just one thing I wanted to remind everyone that we're here wrestling with you.
We don't have all the answers.
We're trying to wrestle with this in community just like you are.
So if you've come here for black and white answers to all your Sermon on the Mount questions,
unfortunately, you've probably come to the wrong place.
So I'm going to let Van read the scripture, and then we'll get into it.
All right.
Matthew chapter 6, verse 19.
Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth where moth and vermin destroy and where
thieves break in and steal, but store up for yourselves treasures in heaven where moths
and vermin do not destroy and where thieves do not break in and steal.
For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.
The eye is the lamp of the body.
If the eyes are healthy, your whole body will be full of light.
But if your eyes are unhealthy, your whole body will be full of darkness.
If then, the light within you is darkness.
How great is that darkness?
No one can serve two masters.
Either you will hate the one and love the other, or you will be devoted to the one and
despise the other.
You cannot serve both God and money.
Thanks Van.
So this is sort of the last part of this.
And the word for money, which is we use money is actually maiming.
Just for our listeners, I think most of us in the room know that.
But it's not just like I have a big bank account.
I have wealth.
I have possessions.
It would be the one who has a big bank account, an expensive house, more cars than you need,
maybe a boat, maybe a vacation home.
Just it's wealth.
It's being overly wealthy.
And in verse 24, Jesus uses a really strong word.
He uses the word master, which is essentially decision-making authority, the one who has
a right to decide.
So what's being communicated is that we cannot serve both God and the pursuit of riches
and wealth.
Now some tension I feel here, and I want us to resolve this together, is it doesn't
seem like it's talking about earning money to live our day-to-day lives.
Can we get some agreement from that?
Yeah, in the room.
I don't think that's true.
We have to earn money, and the math has to add up at the end of the day.
But it doesn't seem like he's talking about that, but he's talking about the excesses
that if we're all being honest, we all somewhat want.
Why would Jesus use God and riches as the opposite decision-making authority?
If they're both authorities, why are they so in contrast with each other?
Well, I think you're right.
I think part of what Jesus is saying here in verse 24 is that you can't do both.
You can't store up earthly and heavenly treasure.
We see this kind of dynamic play out in Luke 9 and 14 passages that indicate, I think,
we're to give away earthly treasure to secure heavenly treasure.
I think that's pretty clear.
You can't hold on to Christ if you're still gripping money.
You aren't really trusting him.
You're trusting yourself, your kingdom, the works of your hands.
It's the opposite of faith.
I think that's a very dangerous place to find yourself.
I think it's the place we mentioned the rich young ruler earlier.
I think that's where he found himself, ultimately relied on himself instead of God.
I think we see throughout the Old Testament that there's a value placed on trusting God,
not self, and taking care of community.
You're supposed to be generous and take care of the others around you.
We talked about hospitality being a huge thing, or the laws limiting servitude, things like
the jubilees where servants were liberated, or laws that allowed the portagling crop leftovers.
There's all the tithes.
There's just so much there about giving that's just baked into their culture.
I think when we get to the New Testament and Jesus, what he's talking about, I don't think
it's just the tithe, but it's the whole.
It's like your whole heart.
It's not just the limit.
It's like, no, no, no, not the limit.
What can you do?
Think creatively.
What can you give?
How can you be a vessel to be used to give, not just hoarding things in bigger barns?
Matt, I love how you talked about their system.
The system they lived in was designed to make provisions for the poor.
It wasn't just you as the individual based on your own heart.
It was, no, I'm creating a system, a society that makes provisions for the poor.
I really like that.
Yeah, Tim was talking about, in the previous episode about the year of Jubilee and how
you forgive your debts.
There was also put into the law, it's in the scriptures how land had to return to the
original owner of the land.
You know, the sort of the year of Jubilee.
I think that happened during the year of Jubilee.
There's other passages in the Old Testament where the king is commanded not to amass too
much cattle, not to amass too much of everything.
Everything has to come back.
I think that what Jesus is saying here is that, and that word master, I think is just
another example of some of the extreme terminology we experienced early in the Sermon and the
Sermon that if you're, if you're, if God is not your master and money is, then it's
not the money.
The money doesn't belong to you.
You belong to the money.
And that's the risk that you run.
If you're not, if you're not making God your master, because if God is your master, then
you belong to God.
If money is your master, you belong to the money.
And, and money is not a good master.
I think of what you said with the guy, the wealthy, famous person.
Exactly.
Who, he has so much that he could never do anything else in his entire life.
And he would probably in all reasonable estimates never run out of money.
And yet he still lives in fear of losing it all because instead of, because he's so
mastered by the money.
Exactly.
Yeah.
And I mean, when you think about that, like we've, we've just been talking about the,
the way of following God in the Old Testament and the New is this generous sacrificial nature.
And the way of Mammon is this clinging, you know, acquiring nature.
And so those are going to be intention, right?
Those are the, the two different ways of operating and seeing the world that are going to result
in different decisions.
And so I think that's when Jesus said you can't serve both.
Like you, it's just, it, it's just an impossibility to live both in a life that is generous and
sacrificial like the way of the cross.
And that's always acquiring and me, me, me, I want more.
Yeah.
And always nicer stuff.
And I think it, I think pulling into it, what we talked about the last time too about
seeing things with generous eyes is that I think we can take that a little bit further.
And that's how you, that's how you see God because it's really difficult to cling to
something that you can't see, which is why it's so easy to cling to your money, your
Mammon.
Yeah.
Because you can see that, right?
You can, you can, you can experience it with your senses in some way.
The only way you get to experience God is through a generous, through your perspective,
through a generous perspective on your life.
And then you can see God and then you can cling to him as your master.
Yeah.
There's a, there's a big element of this that is about faith, about trusting God.
Yes.
Huge.
So question, just one thing, one more thing I want to ask before we move on to the next
one is how did God tell his people to handle prosperity in the Old Testament?
And then the follow up is how did they do with that?
Fans laughing.
Well, I, you know, I think we talked about it a little bit.
I wish I had looked up all the, the scriptures that were specific, but they weren't to,
they weren't to have too much.
They were supposed to be able to tell when they had enough, when they, when, okay, that's
enough.
I don't need anymore.
That rarely happens in, in our world.
And so, you know, but it is pretty explicit in the law that you, you don't acquire too
much.
How did they handle it?
Not well.
I think, I think, I think what everything Van said, in addition to remember God, remember,
I'm paraphrasing, remember me when you have an abundant harvest.
Yeah, right.
Deuteronomy eight.
Yeah.
Remember me when you, when you have abundance.
Yeah, good one.
Exactly.
And that didn't, throughout the history of God's people, they usually forgot him.
Yeah.
When they had abundance, even when the abundance was not their doing, it wasn't their hard
work.
It wasn't any of that.
They usually just said it in, like what Van said, they set a whole system up to not have
anyone be too rich and to not have anyone be too poor.
And that was, seems like God, based on that, and you guys are free to disagree with me
on this, it seems like God is trying, doesn't necessarily want, he doesn't want everyone
to be so poor that they become destitute.
That's not something he wants, and he doesn't want anybody to be so rich that they're irrationally
petrified of losing everything.
Right, right.
Yeah, you know, it reminds me a little of what Tim, you were saying in one of the other
episodes about an ax, how they just shared all their belongings with each other, no one
had need.
And it made me think a little too of the sacrificial system and how they were called to bring their
best.
And then what, sacrifice it, and then they have a meal and they have joy.
But like, that's your best of this, like I want to, if I'm owning that particular animal,
I want my best to reproduce.
I want more of best.
And I'm going to now put them on the altar because I trust God more.
And now I'm going to have a party and we're going to have joy and experience joy because
I'm not clinging to that, I'm clinging to God.
Yeah.
And I also wrote down, I wrote down in my notes that in their world, worshiping God cost
money.
Right.
Yeah.
I mean, I don't want to be tried about it, but for them to go to the temple in that particular
audience, they had to go get price gouged on an offering and then sacrifice that offering.
And we're not, we're talking about people that are not rich.
They had to, it cost them money.
It probably hurt them to go worship God.
And so God's not telling them, don't make money.
But he's also saying, it seems like he's saying, you don't want to have too much, but you also
don't want to have too little.
And you want to make sure nobody around you has too little.
That's how I read it anyway.
Now to bring us back to my favorite topic, which is how the people would have heard it,
how would a Pharisee and a Herodian and maybe even a Sadducee, what would they believe about
Jesus's statement, assuming they're all good-hearted, they're not, if they're going out to listen
to Jesus talk, I think they're at least curious, maybe not good-hearted.
But how would they hear that?
I don't know if I assumed good-hearted in my response here.
I was kind of a jokie.
I don't know if I should be jokie, but I thought of a few scriptures I could quote.
So for the Sadducees, I thought from 1 Corinthians 6, I have the right to do anything and food
for the stomach and stomach for food.
It's probably not entirely wrong.
Essians, I don't know.
I think maybe they had left by then to go write some more rules in their caves about
community living.
No, I'm just kidding about that.
Pliny, the historian, claimed the Essians possessed no money.
So I think many probably believed what Jesus was saying here because they were voluntarily
poor.
So I'm guessing they'd agree with him wholeheartedly on this point.
The Pharisees, I don't know, Jim, you'll respond to this.
I know they're your boys.
But-
Never said that.
I'm messing around.
But I was thinking of John 8, 33.
We are Abraham's descendants and have never been slaves of anyone.
I don't know how the rest of the argument ends, but it sounds kind of like Pharisees.
Well, I think a good-hearted anything, a good-hearted anybody when they see the words of Jesus are
going to take them to heart.
I think that's the definition of a good-hearted.
I think that whenever I see those titles, and I don't pretend to know a lot about Pharisees,
Herodians, and Sadducees, I know a little bit.
But I know what my tendency is, and I know what the human tendency is, is as soon as you
align yourself with a particular way, and it is not God's way, it's easy to be blinded
to your own sin, weakness, foibles, whatever you want to call it.
It's very easy to get blind to that.
And in some ways, we seek to be blind for that because it makes us feel better in the
short run.
I just think that that's the risk with all scripture, I think, is being able to see it
and see what it means to you really at the depths of your heart.
I was thinking about something you said in an earlier pod that while the Pharisees, in
my opinion, would have been like, amen, you cannot serve two masters.
Go Jesus, go.
I think that's kind of where they would have been.
They also would have been like, hey, you need to tell the Sadducees that.
Like, hey, Jesus, can you go down to the Sadducees and the Herodians and repeat this one part
to them?
They very well might have heard it for, yeah, we agree with this, and we want all of our
other Jewish brothers to stop acting like this.
Yeah.
Well, you know, Nicodemus went to see Jesus, but he went to see him at night.
Because he was kind of serving two masters.
Yeah, he was playing.
He was, there was, let's go see him, but let's not let him know.
Let's not go at night.
Let's go at night when nobody sees.
It definitely, with Nicodemus, feels like he's trying to figure out where he's at and
where who Jesus is.
And he's dipping his toe in the water, but not getting there.
But I think the difference between all of these is that all of them, it highlights a
good thing that this hits us differently.
Right?
Like some people go, yeah, I don't serve two masters.
I live as simply as possible.
And I think if a Herodian, good-hearted Herodian were to hear this, they would go, ooh, man,
I kind of do pursue wealth a lot, don't I?
Like I read this and I go, and I fully embrace, not embrace, but I will admit I have a lot
of Herodian tendencies because I live in 21st century New England.
And we, in my opinion, we all have Herodian tendencies where, and their central tenant
was I can have God and I can have all the good stuff in both ways.
And it really sounds like Jesus is saying we can't have it both ways.
We have to make a decision about which thing we're serving.
Which thing has decision-making authority over us?
Is it God or is it money?
Bring this thing in for a bit of a landing here, boys.
This is good.
What's Jesus saying kind of overall about what our life priorities should be?
And how was that?
Why is this so hard?
It is hard.
It's a battle.
And I think I notice when I'm not doing well with this is when I tend to be worried or
stressed out.
You know, I think the next section is directly related to this when he talks about anxiety.
When I'm stressed out, ultimately I'm not trusting God, I'm trusting myself.
And that's when I tend to pull back, get tight-fisted.
I have a lot of baggage from growing up and feeling like I got to make sure things don't
go sideways and I got to protect.
And that's who I am for default.
So this battle, I think we talked about it a bunch, but we got to keep looking to Jesus
who's the author and perfector of our faith.
We got to keep our eyes focused on him because it's not just looking to him that one time.
It's like continuing to look to him and not ourselves.
This battle, I love what Paul, I'm going to bring this answer in for Elanah here.
In 2 Corinthians 3, going into chapter 4, Paul's talking about how we contemplate the
Lord's glory and we're being transformed into his image with ever-increasing glory, which
comes from the Lord.
So, you know, we're looking to Jesus, we are transformed and being transformed and can
be ever-increasing glory displaying that light and to the being that lamp to the world, right?
But he goes into the next chapter and says there's an opponent that wants to veil the
gospel and blind the minds of unbelievers.
And this is the thing that we have to fight against.
He talks about the light of the knowledge of God's glory displayed in Christ.
This is faith and he's calling us to, in our hearts, know God through seeing Christ.
It really, I think boils down for me, how much am I reading the word and then doing
what it says.
And the way that Paul runs that chapter is so we fix our eyes not on what is seen but
on what is unseen since what is seen is temporary.
But what is unseen is eternal.
Oh, that's good, that's good.
Yeah, I think so.
I think in why is it so hard?
So when I think about my life, I think what do I have?
What do I want?
What do I need?
And if the answer to that is monetary, material, mercenary, mammon, whatever you want to call
it, then the answer, what I have, well, it's not enough because I've got this bill coming
up or I've got that bill coming up or I've got to fix my car or I need a new shed or
my shoes are wearing out or what I have is not enough.
But I need more.
How much more?
I just more, I need to get those shoes, I need to fix the car, I need to get the shed,
I need to do all that stuff.
And what do I need?
Well, more.
It's a vicious, horrible cycle.
But if I answer that question through the perspective of God, what do I have?
I have a relationship with God.
I'm a Christian, I'm saved, I'm right with God.
Well, okay, so then what do I want?
Well, I want God.
I want more of him.
And well, what do I need?
I need God.
He answers all of those questions in one fell swoop and it leads to joy and it leads to
satisfaction and it leads to contentment and it leads to gratitude and it erases sin, it
erases regret, it erases all those things that come with the more of money, of possession,
of material things, of wanting more of what I can see.
Because eventually I used to, when I was in college, my friend Jim Condon, his dad was
a minister and his dad was very wise and very pithy in the things that he said and something
he said to me I'll never forget.
He would say, how are you doing?
And I tell him how I was doing and because I'm angst ridden, something was always wrong.
And he would always say, well, add 100 years to it.
In 100 years, what's that going to mean?
I said, well, nothing.
And he said, exactly.
And it has always stuck with me that, okay, all the stuff I'm anxious about and distraught
about, add 100 years to it.
I add 100 years to my relationship with God and I'm there, I'm with him.
It's still there.
It's the only thing that's actually still there.
Well, I can't think of a better way to end that discussion than what Van just said, is
that we talked about a lot, we've talked about not storing up treasures for ourselves on
earth, all the earthly treasures, add 100 years to it.
I think my house might still be standing in 100 years.
But I doubt I'll, I won't be standing in it.
It's been standing since 1860.
So I think I'm on solid ground there.
But my house won't be standing.
My car will definitely be scrap metal.
All the stuff I have is going to be gone to some degree, including my own life, but I'll
still be with God.
And I think that's a great thought to end this with, is in 100 years we'll still be
with God.
Let's pursue the things that lead to being with God.
That's what I feel challenged by in this.
And I feel challenged to get rid of some of the things that don't and to be more generous.
I feel challenged to spend less time pursuing the stuff here on earth and ultimately less
time pursuing money and less energy and figuring out where the tension lies and how to resolve
that tension.
So I really appreciate you guys.
I appreciate everyone's perspective.
This has been great for me.
Thank you guys for listening and we'll talk to you all next pod.
Thank you.
Thanks guys.
Global Action.