1
00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:08,840
Hey, I'm Matt Brownell.

2
00:00:08,840 --> 00:00:10,480
And I'm Van Owens.

3
00:00:10,480 --> 00:00:12,160
And I'm Tim Adams.

4
00:00:12,160 --> 00:00:18,120
Welcome to Climbing the Mountain, where we dive into the scriptures and discuss themes,

5
00:00:18,120 --> 00:00:21,280
connections, and real life application.

6
00:00:21,280 --> 00:00:24,960
We're kicking off a series here where we're going to examine the Sermon on the Mount and

7
00:00:24,960 --> 00:00:34,880
discuss implications for this teaching for Christians today.

8
00:00:34,880 --> 00:00:39,320
It's my great pleasure to introduce Jim Garton to our listeners.

9
00:00:39,320 --> 00:00:41,840
First and foremost, Jim is one of our good friends.

10
00:00:41,840 --> 00:00:45,040
Jim is a teacher in our church and loves the Sermon on the Mount.

11
00:00:45,040 --> 00:00:52,320
However, what excites me most about Jim joining us is what he brings to this discussion.

12
00:00:52,320 --> 00:00:56,240
He's really passionate about ancient societies.

13
00:00:56,240 --> 00:01:00,680
And as we've observed already, it's really important to consider how Jesus' hearers took

14
00:01:00,680 --> 00:01:02,640
his words.

15
00:01:02,640 --> 00:01:04,960
Jim is also a great questioner.

16
00:01:04,960 --> 00:01:09,680
So we're going to turn it over to him to lead this discussion on perhaps one of the most

17
00:01:09,680 --> 00:01:13,480
pressing issues of our day, God and money.

18
00:01:13,480 --> 00:01:16,680
Contrary to what you may have heard, greed is not good.

19
00:01:16,680 --> 00:01:19,640
Well, thank you, Matt, for the very nice introduction.

20
00:01:19,640 --> 00:01:26,320
I am a great questioner, but I am a questioner, and so I always tend to ask why.

21
00:01:26,320 --> 00:01:29,600
I ask, what is this getting at?

22
00:01:29,600 --> 00:01:35,200
And I do have an interest in ancient societies because I want to understand the world that

23
00:01:35,200 --> 00:01:39,600
these people lived in, not just what this means, sounds like it means to me, but I want

24
00:01:39,600 --> 00:01:43,840
to know what it means to them and what it means in their world.

25
00:01:43,840 --> 00:01:46,240
So that's one of my big passions.

26
00:01:46,240 --> 00:01:52,680
This comes at the beginning of the ministry of Jesus' ministry.

27
00:01:52,680 --> 00:01:58,160
We don't know if this was several sermons mashed together, but the way Matthew writes

28
00:01:58,160 --> 00:02:01,880
it, it's really at the beginning of what Jesus was doing.

29
00:02:01,880 --> 00:02:08,480
And so it feels like, and reads like, it's setting the stage for the rest of his ministry.

30
00:02:08,480 --> 00:02:16,000
And Matthew makes a decision to put this here, and whether this was the combination, where

31
00:02:16,000 --> 00:02:19,680
he said it, when he said it, why Matthew made that, I'm going to let you wrestle with that,

32
00:02:19,680 --> 00:02:23,840
because I, to be very honest, I don't have a great answer for that.

33
00:02:23,840 --> 00:02:26,360
And he's talked about a lot in the Sermon on the Mount.

34
00:02:26,360 --> 00:02:31,920
He's talked about giving to the needy, our righteous acts, not being done for the purpose

35
00:02:31,920 --> 00:02:37,480
of being seen by others, and a little snippet of how to pray.

36
00:02:37,480 --> 00:02:42,400
He's also talked about loving your enemies, which I know you guys did a lot of podcasts

37
00:02:42,400 --> 00:02:43,400
on.

38
00:02:43,400 --> 00:02:44,480
He's talked about revenge.

39
00:02:44,480 --> 00:02:46,280
He's talked about reconciliation.

40
00:02:46,280 --> 00:02:54,480
He's talked about a lot of difficult, challenging things so far that don't just challenge our

41
00:02:54,480 --> 00:02:58,680
actions, they challenge our hearts, and they challenge how we view God and how we view the

42
00:02:58,680 --> 00:02:59,680
world.

43
00:02:59,680 --> 00:03:06,760
And so now he goes into one thing that I always find challenging, and just to be very

44
00:03:06,760 --> 00:03:10,640
upfront about this, we're going to talk about God and money.

45
00:03:10,640 --> 00:03:14,160
I am currently applying to grad school.

46
00:03:14,160 --> 00:03:18,920
One of the reasons I'm applying to grad school is because it's a better financial situation

47
00:03:18,920 --> 00:03:23,480
if I have the graduate degree than if I don't.

48
00:03:23,480 --> 00:03:29,480
And I think this is a very hard thing to talk about, because we don't have the choice to

49
00:03:29,480 --> 00:03:31,360
not engage it.

50
00:03:31,360 --> 00:03:33,920
We have to engage this on some degree.

51
00:03:33,920 --> 00:03:38,840
We can't just go off into the wilderness and ignore money.

52
00:03:38,840 --> 00:03:41,320
Money is something we have to engage with.

53
00:03:41,320 --> 00:03:44,920
We don't have a choice to skip out on it.

54
00:03:44,920 --> 00:03:50,880
And so we're going to talk a little bit about God and money, and how does that work, and

55
00:03:50,880 --> 00:03:56,560
how not straightforward that can be in the society we live in that absolutely, unequivocally

56
00:03:56,560 --> 00:04:00,880
worships wealth and stuff.

57
00:04:00,880 --> 00:04:03,960
And so he goes into three sections here.

58
00:04:03,960 --> 00:04:04,960
There's three sections here.

59
00:04:04,960 --> 00:04:08,640
There's the do not store up for yourself treasures on earth.

60
00:04:08,640 --> 00:04:13,240
And there's the eyes, the lamp of the body, and then there's the no one can serve to

61
00:04:13,240 --> 00:04:14,240
master.

62
00:04:14,240 --> 00:04:16,960
So we're going to read this, and then we're going to kind of go section by section.

63
00:04:16,960 --> 00:04:22,400
It says, do not store up for yourselves in Matthew chapter 6 and verse 14.

64
00:04:22,400 --> 00:04:26,760
Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth where moth and vermin destroy and where

65
00:04:26,760 --> 00:04:28,800
thieves break in and steal.

66
00:04:28,800 --> 00:04:33,800
But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven where moths and vermin do not destroy and

67
00:04:33,800 --> 00:04:36,080
where thieves do not break in and steal.

68
00:04:36,080 --> 00:04:39,920
For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.

69
00:04:39,920 --> 00:04:41,920
The eye is the lamp of the body.

70
00:04:41,920 --> 00:04:45,360
If your eyes are healthy, your whole body will be full of light.

71
00:04:45,360 --> 00:04:49,480
But if your eyes are unhealthy, your whole body will be full of darkness.

72
00:04:49,480 --> 00:04:54,320
If the light within you is darkness, how great is that darkness?

73
00:04:54,320 --> 00:04:56,520
No one can serve two masters.

74
00:04:56,520 --> 00:05:02,240
Either you will hate the one and love the other, or you will be devoted to one and despise

75
00:05:02,240 --> 00:05:03,240
the other.

76
00:05:03,240 --> 00:05:05,920
You cannot serve both God and money.

77
00:05:05,920 --> 00:05:07,360
So we're going to go section by section.

78
00:05:07,360 --> 00:05:08,360
We have some questions.

79
00:05:08,360 --> 00:05:10,200
We're going to start with the first section.

80
00:05:10,200 --> 00:05:16,400
When we consider the idea of treasures on earth versus treasures in heaven, how would

81
00:05:16,400 --> 00:05:20,600
the people sitting and listening to the sermon have taken that?

82
00:05:20,600 --> 00:05:27,920
Specifically, how would some of the different views within Judaism have taken that, have

83
00:05:27,920 --> 00:05:29,760
understood that and heard that?

84
00:05:29,760 --> 00:05:36,680
I'm talking things, Herodians, Pharisees, just a quick definition for any of our listeners

85
00:05:36,680 --> 00:05:37,880
who may not know.

86
00:05:37,880 --> 00:05:45,120
Herodians were Jews who accepted Greek culture and kind of tried to straddle the world of

87
00:05:45,120 --> 00:05:53,320
Judaism and Greek Hellenism, which was money which looks suspiciously like America does.

88
00:05:53,320 --> 00:05:59,440
And the Pharisees went off on their own to be devoted to the Word of God and to knowing

89
00:05:59,440 --> 00:06:01,840
the Word of God and to walking it out.

90
00:06:01,840 --> 00:06:06,920
That's probably an overly simplistic explanation, but that's sort of the bucket you can put

91
00:06:06,920 --> 00:06:07,920
them in.

92
00:06:07,920 --> 00:06:09,640
So how would they have taken it?

93
00:06:09,640 --> 00:06:13,800
I might perpetuate some stereotypes here with my response, I don't know.

94
00:06:13,800 --> 00:06:19,040
But because I'm sure there were some soft and heart-hearted people in each of these

95
00:06:19,040 --> 00:06:22,600
groups when they heard Jesus.

96
00:06:22,600 --> 00:06:29,240
But in general, I'd say, I bet a Herodian or I'd say a Sadducee for that matter would

97
00:06:29,240 --> 00:06:35,560
have been either deeply disturbed or maybe dismissive.

98
00:06:35,560 --> 00:06:36,560
I don't know.

99
00:06:36,560 --> 00:06:38,400
It's hard to know.

100
00:06:38,400 --> 00:06:43,920
I'd say they were probably heart-hearted or deaf to Jesus' words on this matter.

101
00:06:43,920 --> 00:06:50,240
I think they probably would have tuned him out or maybe sought to discredit him and therefore

102
00:06:50,240 --> 00:06:52,960
discredit what he was saying.

103
00:06:52,960 --> 00:06:57,840
I think you were mentioning that they were entrenched in the world, they benefited from

104
00:06:57,840 --> 00:07:02,240
creature comfort.

105
00:07:02,240 --> 00:07:06,200
Of all the people in Jesus' society, you're right, we're probably closest to them with

106
00:07:06,200 --> 00:07:08,960
our whole consumeristic culture.

107
00:07:08,960 --> 00:07:15,400
The thing that I'm reminded about is I was thinking about the church in Laodicea when

108
00:07:15,400 --> 00:07:21,560
Jesus, the words that were spoken to them, you say, I'm rich.

109
00:07:21,560 --> 00:07:22,560
I have acquired wealth.

110
00:07:22,560 --> 00:07:24,040
I do not need a thing.

111
00:07:24,040 --> 00:07:31,720
But you do not realize that you were wretched, pitiful, poor, blind, and naked.

112
00:07:31,720 --> 00:07:38,600
I think that speaks to them, but I think it speaks to our society too.

113
00:07:38,600 --> 00:07:40,600
Yeah.

114
00:07:40,600 --> 00:07:44,800
I'd be really curious, Jim, how you would think each of these people have heard this,

115
00:07:44,800 --> 00:07:46,600
because it's not something I'm super familiar with.

116
00:07:46,600 --> 00:07:54,800
I just thought about in the passage in Matthew 19 where we're seeing the rich young ruler

117
00:07:54,800 --> 00:08:01,000
and Jesus is talking about it's more difficult for a rich man, for a camel go through, I

118
00:08:01,000 --> 00:08:03,520
have a needle in for a rich man under the kingdom of heaven.

119
00:08:03,520 --> 00:08:11,720
The disciples are shocked because they assume, I think like most of the culture at some way,

120
00:08:11,720 --> 00:08:18,200
that there's a link between, if I have a lot of wealth, then I've been blessed.

121
00:08:18,200 --> 00:08:23,720
And so the fact that we're not supposed to store up treasure on earth, I think would

122
00:08:23,720 --> 00:08:30,720
just sound strange to most people because, well, aren't I doing something right if I

123
00:08:30,720 --> 00:08:34,240
have this material blessing?

124
00:08:34,240 --> 00:08:37,000
That's a good point.

125
00:08:37,000 --> 00:08:42,080
My understanding is there was an idea within Judaism that if you were wealthy, you were

126
00:08:42,080 --> 00:08:43,480
blessed.

127
00:08:43,480 --> 00:08:48,640
How prevalent that idea was amongst the disciples and there are kind of different ways of seeing

128
00:08:48,640 --> 00:08:55,400
the world is an open question that we probably don't have a good answer to.

129
00:08:55,400 --> 00:09:00,960
I've heard some people talk about blessed or the poor in spirit, but then they just

130
00:09:00,960 --> 00:09:01,960
say blessed or the poor.

131
00:09:01,960 --> 00:09:08,000
So speaking to that, if you've got great wealth, oh, God has blessed me, well, are you

132
00:09:08,000 --> 00:09:11,000
sure it's a blessing?

133
00:09:11,000 --> 00:09:12,480
I don't know.

134
00:09:12,480 --> 00:09:13,480
Yeah.

135
00:09:13,480 --> 00:09:20,360
But in the Old Testament, there's a ton of examples of God materially blessing people

136
00:09:20,360 --> 00:09:27,920
and that's part of the divine promise in the covenant that God's going to take care of

137
00:09:27,920 --> 00:09:28,920
as people.

138
00:09:28,920 --> 00:09:34,880
So I would even question our view of that, is God blessing them with abundance or is

139
00:09:34,880 --> 00:09:38,160
he blessing them with enough?

140
00:09:38,160 --> 00:09:42,120
Is the blessing that God provides you with just enough or is it that God provides us

141
00:09:42,120 --> 00:09:49,640
with far more than we could ever hope for materially?

142
00:09:49,640 --> 00:09:55,920
And if you were blessed in such a way in that society, would you have a lot of people that

143
00:09:55,920 --> 00:09:59,920
worked for you that you would be providing for at the same time?

144
00:09:59,920 --> 00:10:02,280
And so you're blessing, but you're also giving out?

145
00:10:02,280 --> 00:10:03,280
I don't know.

146
00:10:03,280 --> 00:10:10,480
I, that's, yeah, I think that, well, so my first thought about Herodians, Pharisees,

147
00:10:10,480 --> 00:10:17,600
Sadducees, and I had to refresh myself on who those different groups of people were.

148
00:10:17,600 --> 00:10:22,400
And the thing that they had in common was that they were all religious, right?

149
00:10:22,400 --> 00:10:31,160
And I think that as a person who's been religious for a long time, there is a tendency when

150
00:10:31,160 --> 00:10:38,200
something hits you from the Bible or something hits you from a sermon.

151
00:10:38,200 --> 00:10:44,960
There is a tendency when you've got sort of solidified religion in your soul.

152
00:10:44,960 --> 00:10:49,680
And I don't mean religion in a good sense because there's a good sense and a bad sense

153
00:10:49,680 --> 00:10:55,680
that the first thing I can do is to say, boy, that's a good passage for Jim.

154
00:10:55,680 --> 00:10:58,960
Cause I think he's got some issues.

155
00:10:58,960 --> 00:11:05,800
Or boy, this is a good passage for me to share with so and so because he's got, so my tendency

156
00:11:05,800 --> 00:11:10,760
can be the first thing I can think, if I'm a Pharisee, the first thing I can think is,

157
00:11:10,760 --> 00:11:13,320
yeah, that's those Herodians.

158
00:11:13,320 --> 00:11:15,680
They have a problem with this.

159
00:11:15,680 --> 00:11:17,120
I don't, I'm cool.

160
00:11:17,120 --> 00:11:19,080
But this is a good Jesus.

161
00:11:19,080 --> 00:11:24,520
When you talk to them and the Herodians are thinking the same, yeah, talk to those Sadducees.

162
00:11:24,520 --> 00:11:28,480
They're the ones in charge of the temple and they're the ones who got all the temple treasury

163
00:11:28,480 --> 00:11:32,200
and they're the ones who are abusing that money and they're the ones who are living off

164
00:11:32,200 --> 00:11:36,800
the fat of the land from all these poor people who are contributing to them all the time.

165
00:11:36,800 --> 00:11:45,280
This is for them and to, to, to, uh, to rebuph it by putting it on someone else.

166
00:11:45,280 --> 00:11:46,280
Yeah.

167
00:11:46,280 --> 00:11:47,280
That's a good point.

168
00:11:47,280 --> 00:11:51,600
So, so to, just to get back to what Tim's question was and my, my own personal thought

169
00:11:51,600 --> 00:11:56,720
is if a Herodian heard, if a good-hearted Herodian heard this, it would be wincing in

170
00:11:56,720 --> 00:12:02,040
the crowd like, oh, I, uh, and they would see that, yeah, I'm proud.

171
00:12:02,040 --> 00:12:04,840
I would like to think they would see I'm probably doing that.

172
00:12:04,840 --> 00:12:08,720
And if a bad-hearted Herodian heard this, they'd probably do some sort of mental gymnastics

173
00:12:08,720 --> 00:12:13,640
to explain it away, which I'm sure none of us have ever done any mental gymnastics to

174
00:12:13,640 --> 00:12:15,640
explain things away.

175
00:12:15,640 --> 00:12:16,640
Jesus says,

176
00:12:16,640 --> 00:12:20,240
I had a gold medal in mental gymnastics.

177
00:12:20,240 --> 00:12:22,000
I'm not smart enough for that.

178
00:12:22,000 --> 00:12:27,240
Um, I, I actually think the Pharisees, and this is a thing that, uh, at least a couple

179
00:12:27,240 --> 00:12:30,480
of you and I have discussed at different points.

180
00:12:30,480 --> 00:12:35,160
If we take the Pharisees as a group, which is not totally fair, I know, but we have to

181
00:12:35,160 --> 00:12:41,640
talk in general terms to ever have a discussion, the Pharisees were actually pretty good at

182
00:12:41,640 --> 00:12:48,960
denying their, at denying the pursuit of wealth if you take them as a big picture.

183
00:12:48,960 --> 00:12:51,640
They didn't, they didn't have ornate houses.

184
00:12:51,640 --> 00:12:52,840
They didn't have extra stuff.

185
00:12:52,840 --> 00:12:58,120
They really did in a lot of ways devote themselves to the text and to walking it out.

186
00:12:58,120 --> 00:13:04,120
And I, I think most Pharisees would hear this and say, yeah, I'm with that.

187
00:13:04,120 --> 00:13:08,800
I'm for don't store up treasures in heaven or don't store up treasures on earth, store

188
00:13:08,800 --> 00:13:10,160
up treasures in heaven.

189
00:13:10,160 --> 00:13:13,600
So don't pursue wealth this side of eternity.

190
00:13:13,600 --> 00:13:18,800
I think the Pharisees might have been figuratively standing up and clapping here and, and would

191
00:13:18,800 --> 00:13:21,680
be that a lot of them would be totally with Jesus.

192
00:13:21,680 --> 00:13:27,160
Now there was also, I'm sure there were some Pharisees who were working with the Sadducees

193
00:13:27,160 --> 00:13:33,920
who had the temple treasury and who greatly benefited from materially from this.

194
00:13:33,920 --> 00:13:41,240
But so I think what I, what I think is so challenging about this is that there's different

195
00:13:41,240 --> 00:13:47,680
ways that people can take this even within the same faith tradition.

196
00:13:47,680 --> 00:13:53,320
You know, you have Jews and you have different Jews are going to hear this different ways.

197
00:13:53,320 --> 00:13:57,720
A zealot would probably hear this and go, yeah, you can't store up treasure on earth.

198
00:13:57,720 --> 00:14:00,600
I have no treasure on earth.

199
00:14:00,600 --> 00:14:04,200
Now the zealot would have been challenged by some other things that happened early,

200
00:14:04,200 --> 00:14:08,520
that he said earlier in the sermon.

201
00:14:08,520 --> 00:14:11,440
What do we do with that information?

202
00:14:11,440 --> 00:14:21,840
Well, I, I was kind of thinking, I don't know, something you said about the Pharisees

203
00:14:21,840 --> 00:14:27,680
I wanted to, to react to because I, I feel like you're probably right there.

204
00:14:27,680 --> 00:14:31,760
And maybe I felt if I could lump the Essians in there too, because they were another group

205
00:14:31,760 --> 00:14:32,760
at the time.

206
00:14:32,760 --> 00:14:39,840
I feel like what you and what Van were saying about, I think speaks to us today too, because

207
00:14:39,840 --> 00:14:45,240
anyone who's been religious could have that trap of falling into that mindset of saying

208
00:14:45,240 --> 00:14:48,120
that this is, yeah, really good.

209
00:14:48,120 --> 00:14:51,360
And point your finger at everyone else that needs to repent.

210
00:14:51,360 --> 00:14:57,400
And I could see, you know, the Essians, they were, they were an apocalyptic sect of Judaism

211
00:14:57,400 --> 00:15:02,960
and they went off and, you know, abandoned the corrupt temple in Jerusalem.

212
00:15:02,960 --> 00:15:06,560
The Pharisees, I think were a little more interesting because they didn't go off somewhere

213
00:15:06,560 --> 00:15:12,400
else and they tried to bring that to the people.

214
00:15:12,400 --> 00:15:15,600
But they also, I think, wanted to be gatekeepers.

215
00:15:15,600 --> 00:15:19,560
And that's, that's something that I think in, in each of our hearts, our sinful nature

216
00:15:19,560 --> 00:15:26,280
wants to be the one who's in control somehow and feel good about myself.

217
00:15:26,280 --> 00:15:32,480
And I've got all these rules and I, I know we don't see totally eye to eye on the Pharisees.

218
00:15:32,480 --> 00:15:35,200
I really, I appreciate everything they did.

219
00:15:35,200 --> 00:15:42,080
I mean, we owe a ton to them for how the synagogue system was set up and Paul, you know, hey,

220
00:15:42,080 --> 00:15:44,480
he's wrote a whole lot of, most of the New Testament.

221
00:15:44,480 --> 00:15:49,120
I think you, you end up with probably some of the pillars of the early church being former

222
00:15:49,120 --> 00:15:51,520
Pharisees who were repented.

223
00:15:51,520 --> 00:15:56,560
But I think it's really interesting at the same time that Jesus, his ministry was in

224
00:15:56,560 --> 00:16:01,040
the epicenter of their, their work because I think the other thing about them is that

225
00:16:01,040 --> 00:16:10,520
they're, they're kind of the pinnacle of the way I view them as relying on their own strength,

226
00:16:10,520 --> 00:16:16,440
like doing their own thing, which is kind of a lot of what the Old Testament was.

227
00:16:16,440 --> 00:16:17,600
We're going to do this.

228
00:16:17,600 --> 00:16:22,480
And then the New Testament, I think, is marked by the Holy Spirit and about reliance on God

229
00:16:22,480 --> 00:16:23,800
turning to him.

230
00:16:23,800 --> 00:16:28,880
And so I think there's, there's something about that in all of this that I think rings

231
00:16:28,880 --> 00:16:31,240
is a through line in these passages.

232
00:16:31,240 --> 00:16:32,240
Yeah.

233
00:16:32,240 --> 00:16:38,360
And I, Matt, I think your, your idea of not relying on self and I, and this is where I

234
00:16:38,360 --> 00:16:40,000
think it's an open question.

235
00:16:40,000 --> 00:16:44,760
Sorry, there's a lot of open questions in this, like any Jesus, like any good Jewish rabbi

236
00:16:44,760 --> 00:16:48,400
gives you a lot more questions than he gives you answers.

237
00:16:48,400 --> 00:16:51,160
So they're open for us to wrestle with.

238
00:16:51,160 --> 00:16:57,080
I don't know how well formed a concept of like relying on God.

239
00:16:57,080 --> 00:17:01,840
And certainly the Holy Spirit was at the time Jesus was saying this.

240
00:17:01,840 --> 00:17:11,040
So I don't want to like count the fact that the Pharisees were not relying on the Holy

241
00:17:11,040 --> 00:17:18,480
Spirit prior to Jesus against them, but I can certainly see where you're coming from

242
00:17:18,480 --> 00:17:24,160
of they sort of acted as gatekeepers and they, they certainly were not good at remembering

243
00:17:24,160 --> 00:17:29,160
the outcasts, the people that God that that was not their strength.

244
00:17:29,160 --> 00:17:32,840
They did a pretty good job walking out the text for them.

245
00:17:32,840 --> 00:17:40,240
They didn't necessarily do a great job, including the marginalized, including the people who

246
00:17:40,240 --> 00:17:46,320
didn't traditionally fit into God's, you know, the thing they thought God was doing.

247
00:17:46,320 --> 00:17:50,720
Like when I, when I was reading this, I was thinking they were probably defensive because

248
00:17:50,720 --> 00:17:57,760
the pre preceding passage seems like a lot of stuff that they, you know, prayed in public

249
00:17:57,760 --> 00:18:02,440
and gave and people knew about it and all that kind of stuff.

250
00:18:02,440 --> 00:18:07,360
They probably were the ones saying, Oh, yeah, this isn't me, of course, because, you know,

251
00:18:07,360 --> 00:18:10,440
I give a tenth even of my spices.

252
00:18:10,440 --> 00:18:11,440
Yeah.

253
00:18:11,440 --> 00:18:14,680
You know, everyone knows that.

254
00:18:14,680 --> 00:18:19,280
But I do think when they heard this, they might have been like, Okay, I can get, I can

255
00:18:19,280 --> 00:18:20,280
get behind that.

256
00:18:20,280 --> 00:18:24,120
If I was, if I'm trying to put myself in the headspace of a Pharisee listening to this,

257
00:18:24,120 --> 00:18:28,680
I probably would have thought I can get behind what he's saying here.

258
00:18:28,680 --> 00:18:33,600
So we're going to try to move on a little bit because we got a lot of questions to get

259
00:18:33,600 --> 00:18:34,600
through.

260
00:18:34,600 --> 00:18:37,760
Can I not move on for just a second?

261
00:18:37,760 --> 00:18:38,760
You can not move on.

262
00:18:38,760 --> 00:18:40,960
I have one script to read too.

263
00:18:40,960 --> 00:18:42,960
This is how Matt and I talk on a normal basis.

264
00:18:42,960 --> 00:18:43,960
I know.

265
00:18:43,960 --> 00:18:46,560
I go off in a million directions.

266
00:18:46,560 --> 00:18:49,840
But you did ask, what's the, what's the big picture here?

267
00:18:49,840 --> 00:18:50,840
Right.

268
00:18:50,840 --> 00:18:55,320
I mean, I think, I think that's worth spending a second to think about too.

269
00:18:55,320 --> 00:19:03,120
And I think the bigger point Jesus is making is about our heart and what we treasure.

270
00:19:03,120 --> 00:19:07,520
So, and, and I just want to bring out one little thing about the translation here.

271
00:19:07,520 --> 00:19:14,360
It's fine to use store up treasures, but it's missing the word play.

272
00:19:14,360 --> 00:19:16,480
Jesus is actually using a different form of the same word.

273
00:19:16,480 --> 00:19:22,560
A better way to put it might be quit, treasuring earthly treasures, begin treasuring heavenly

274
00:19:22,560 --> 00:19:23,560
treasures.

275
00:19:23,560 --> 00:19:28,560
And then I think, you know, versus 21 and 24, which we'll talk about that they unlock

276
00:19:28,560 --> 00:19:29,680
the rest of this for me.

277
00:19:29,680 --> 00:19:35,080
But I think what Jesus does is he pits the focus of our heart's desire as a struggle

278
00:19:35,080 --> 00:19:37,600
between looking to God or the world.

279
00:19:37,600 --> 00:19:43,240
And money is that, that thread through all of it because it, I mean, abstinently, you

280
00:19:43,240 --> 00:19:46,040
can buy anything with money, any earthly treasure.

281
00:19:46,040 --> 00:19:47,040
Yeah.

282
00:19:47,040 --> 00:19:50,920
Money does solve a lot of problems in the war, in our world.

283
00:19:50,920 --> 00:19:54,160
More money does, it solves some stuff for you.

284
00:19:54,160 --> 00:19:58,160
And I like, and I, and Tim, I want you to definitely read your scripture, but I just

285
00:19:58,160 --> 00:20:04,280
want to say one little thing about your note about the translation, Matt, is that I think

286
00:20:04,280 --> 00:20:14,160
it is important to think of treasure as a verb in this sense, because what you treasure

287
00:20:14,160 --> 00:20:17,800
does not, does has nothing to do with how much money you have or how much money you

288
00:20:17,800 --> 00:20:19,440
make.

289
00:20:19,440 --> 00:20:25,160
And Jesus's concern is not necessarily the fact that you have money.

290
00:20:25,160 --> 00:20:26,920
He's not saying don't have money.

291
00:20:26,920 --> 00:20:33,560
He's saying don't treasure things that don't last forever.

292
00:20:33,560 --> 00:20:40,640
And so I think that that's a, that's a really important point for me when I read these passages

293
00:20:40,640 --> 00:20:45,800
about not just this one, but any passage usually about money is what's your attitude towards

294
00:20:45,800 --> 00:20:46,800
it.

295
00:20:46,800 --> 00:20:47,800
Yeah.

296
00:20:47,800 --> 00:20:49,800
No, I think that's a great point.

297
00:20:49,800 --> 00:20:57,120
I'm just looking at the parallel passage in Luke 16, where, I mean, there's a couple

298
00:20:57,120 --> 00:21:00,360
places in Luke, but this one is verse 13 and 14.

299
00:21:00,360 --> 00:21:02,120
So it says, no one can serve two masters.

300
00:21:02,120 --> 00:21:05,360
Either you hate the one and love the other, or you'll be devoted to the one despise the

301
00:21:05,360 --> 00:21:06,360
other.

302
00:21:06,360 --> 00:21:08,000
You cannot serve both God and money.

303
00:21:08,000 --> 00:21:09,800
And then it gives a response.

304
00:21:09,800 --> 00:21:15,240
It said, the Pharisees who loved money heard all this and were sneering at Jesus.

305
00:21:15,240 --> 00:21:18,760
He said to them, you are the ones who justify yourselves in the eyes of others, but God knows

306
00:21:18,760 --> 00:21:19,760
your hearts.

307
00:21:19,760 --> 00:21:22,640
What people value highly is the testable on God's sight.

308
00:21:22,640 --> 00:21:27,000
So, I mean, it doesn't say all the Pharisees love money.

309
00:21:27,000 --> 00:21:29,000
It doesn't say all the Pharisees.

310
00:21:29,000 --> 00:21:30,000
Yeah.

311
00:21:30,000 --> 00:21:32,400
That was the point I was going to make.

312
00:21:32,400 --> 00:21:36,840
But I did, I did think about that while we were talking.

313
00:21:36,840 --> 00:21:42,440
And that last line, I think gets at what you just said, Van, will people value highly is

314
00:21:42,440 --> 00:21:44,040
the testable on God's sight.

315
00:21:44,040 --> 00:21:48,360
There's a mismatch in our, in our values.

316
00:21:48,360 --> 00:21:50,760
In our values and what we treasure.

317
00:21:50,760 --> 00:21:53,840
That is extremely different than what God actually values.

318
00:21:53,840 --> 00:21:54,840
Yeah.

319
00:21:54,840 --> 00:22:02,000
And as soon as you, as soon as you start to start to put yourself in a tribe, as soon

320
00:22:02,000 --> 00:22:10,680
as you say, I'm a Pharisee, then you, you develop this kind of tribal devotion to being

321
00:22:10,680 --> 00:22:12,640
that.

322
00:22:12,640 --> 00:22:22,720
And then that can, if you're not careful, shield you from your own weaknesses, the weaknesses

323
00:22:22,720 --> 00:22:24,320
of the group.

324
00:22:24,320 --> 00:22:31,160
And the fact of the matter is there were Pharisees and Sadducees and Essens and Herodians and

325
00:22:31,160 --> 00:22:32,160
everybody.

326
00:22:32,160 --> 00:22:38,760
And there was greed and love of money and all of those groups, no matter what their standard

327
00:22:38,760 --> 00:22:41,440
was.

328
00:22:41,440 --> 00:22:46,520
And I think that what Jesus is talking about here, and I really appreciate you bringing

329
00:22:46,520 --> 00:22:53,320
that scripture up, Tim, is because what Jesus is talking about here is your heart.

330
00:22:53,320 --> 00:22:54,840
What is in your heart?

331
00:22:54,840 --> 00:22:56,820
What are you cherishing in your heart?

332
00:22:56,820 --> 00:22:59,840
What are you treasuring?

333
00:22:59,840 --> 00:23:07,400
And, and he's addressing the fact that you cannot treasure what you cannot keep forever.

334
00:23:07,400 --> 00:23:14,920
And that's, and that's a great way to kind of wrap this episode up is that, is two things,

335
00:23:14,920 --> 00:23:19,400
what we cherish on this earth we can't keep forever.

336
00:23:19,400 --> 00:23:25,360
And we're called to value, to change the way we think, to value what God values.

337
00:23:25,360 --> 00:23:29,400
And that's not an easy equation.

338
00:23:29,400 --> 00:23:33,200
And I think for the rest of our discussion, one thing I just, I want to go back to what

339
00:23:33,200 --> 00:23:37,920
Tim said, it says the Pharisees loved money and while, in my opinion, the Pharisees were

340
00:23:37,920 --> 00:23:47,680
generally 30,000 foot good at denying wealth, not pursuing wealth, it also shows that we

341
00:23:47,680 --> 00:23:49,960
can't view them as a monolith.

342
00:23:49,960 --> 00:23:54,800
That they're not, just because the Pharisees as a group were not that, and like Van said,

343
00:23:54,800 --> 00:24:00,300
that their strength as a group was that, that doesn't mean that the, some particular

344
00:24:00,300 --> 00:24:05,040
Pharisees weren't, didn't have some weaknesses in those areas.

345
00:24:05,040 --> 00:24:09,960
And so hopefully next podcast, we're going to start talking a little bit more about some

346
00:24:09,960 --> 00:24:17,360
of the ways we do this and some of the pitfalls of money and stuff and wealth and, and all

347
00:24:17,360 --> 00:24:18,360
of that.

348
00:24:18,360 --> 00:24:23,000
But I really appreciate what you guys had to say, really good thought provoking stuff.

349
00:24:23,000 --> 00:24:26,600
And we're going to continue this discussion in the next pod.

350
00:24:26,600 --> 00:24:33,600
Thanks Jim.