Hey, I'm Matt Brownell.
And I'm Van Owens.
And I'm Tim Adams.
Welcome to Climbing the Mountain, where we dive into the scriptures and discuss themes,
connections, and real life application.
We're kicking off a series here where we're going to examine the Sermon on the Mount and
discuss implications for this teaching for Christians today.
Welcome back.
We are going through the Lord's Prayer, and this has just been wonderful.
It's been so fun discussing these passages.
We've only gotten through the first little bit of it, talking about our Father, our Father
in Heaven, and how it would be your name.
We are going to move in now to the last two requests that we're going to focus in on this
time.
Van, do you want to read the whole Lord's Prayer?
Sure.
Matthew chapter 6, starting in verse 9, this then is how you should pray.
Our Father in Heaven, hallowed be your name.
Your kingdom come, your will be done on earth as it is in heaven.
Give us today our daily bread, and forgive us our debts as we also have forgiven our debtors.
And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one.
For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your Heavenly Father will
also forgive you.
But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.
Great.
Okay, so first off, how can we pray, forgive us our debts as we also have forgiven our
debtors?
Are we making grace conditional and not something that is by faith, but rather works?
All right, so I want to jump in here.
And I want to ask you guys a question, kind of to answer that question in my mind.
So what produces a good crop, like in a farming sense?
Is it the rain or is it the farmer?
Yes.
Mm-hmm.
Both.
Yeah.
The farmer works really hard, repair the soil, provides good seed, right, removes weeds,
and it doesn't rain.
It's not going to be good.
But if you don't do those things, the natural thing is it's not going to be a good crop,
right?
Mm-hmm.
So I think that is the answer here.
When we talk about grace being like conditional or not, and we can get like really bound up
in this tight knot of we don't want to make it all about what we do, but Jesus made a
condition here, right?
Like he said, if you don't forgive, you won't be forgiven.
And saying that doesn't take away, if you think about the analogy, doesn't take away
the importance of the rain, right?
It doesn't take away the importance of rain producing that crop.
If the rain's not there, if God doesn't forgive us, then we're host.
But at the same time, we've got to take seriously the fact that there are important things that
we need to do in order to be a good soil to receive that rain.
So I would say, yes, grace is conditional, and yes, grace is by faith, not through works.
It's really both because there's a synergy between what God's doing and what we're doing
here.
Nice.
Any other thoughts?
I think it gets on the nature of who God is and his attributes.
The idea of the name not just being like, oh, hey, John, you know, Matt, I don't think
of it as like a name like that.
I mean, that's a whole other topic, but I was looking at Colossians 3, 12.
Therefore, as the chosen of God, holy and dearly loved, put on affection, compassion,
kindness, humility, gentleness, patience, putting up with one another and forgiving
one another.
And that whole phrasing, if we go back to Moses asking for God to show himself and God
proclaiming the name of Yahweh, abounding with loyal love and faithfulness, keeping
loyal love to the thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, that right there,
the heart of what God's nature is, is what we're claiming to trying to become.
And without that, it's like, do you really believe in God's forgiveness if you aren't
willing to tap into that forgiveness yourself?
Yeah.
Yeah, we are trying to imitate.
And he is the one who initiates grace in the first place.
Yeah.
I think there is a strong, strong link here with our forgiveness and how we forgive.
I think if this wasn't clear enough, because sometimes I'll be honest, I've wanted to pray
this and God, you know, forgive, help me forgive others the way you forgive me.
Like, you know, or just leave that other part off, please forgive me my sins and leave
me not into temptation.
Oops, I missed that part.
You know, if this wasn't hard enough, he really nails the point in verses 14 and 15, right,
where he's saying, if you don't forgive others, God won't forgive you.
And he keeps going with it.
I mean, chapter seven, he's, because the same sentiment with the measure you use will
be measured to you.
So I think, yeah, this is really important that if we're going to, I mean, it's the
unmerc—the parable of the unmerciful servant, right?
He was forgiven a lot.
And then the master's like, shouldn't you have done that for your fellow servant?
Like, you know, we are, I believe we are called to imitate God, our master, and that's what
he wants.
And we, it may not be easy, it might take time.
I don't think that he's, I don't think this is like, I immediately, I forgive you right
away.
No, I mean, you have to deal with stuff for it to even be genuine.
But I think if we are the type of people who hold onto grudges, then we're in danger here
because we're not imitating God.
And I think that there is, so there's a part of this where I've been reading anti-right
lately, and he made one point that I thought was brilliant, he talked about how in John
1, it tells us that a part of the identity of Jesus is that the word became flesh.
And he said, and the word needs to continue to become flesh.
It's just our flesh now.
It's just the church's flesh.
And that the way, how does God's grace, how does God's forgiveness get out to the world
through our flesh?
So that if we, if we don't forgive, if we ask for forgiveness without granting forgiveness,
we're, we're blunting it.
We're, we're, we're becoming hypocrites.
Yeah.
We're, we're, we're putting on something and it's not real anymore.
So when Jesus says, God won't forgive you if you don't forgive others, it's, it's not
like it's an arbitrary thing.
Like God is deciding, okay, if they don't forgive others, then I'm not going to forgive
them.
It's almost like it's an impossibility.
Yeah.
It can't happen.
You cannot be forgiven.
It's like you're, you're not part of the group.
Right.
The group is we're going to go out in the world and forgive other people because we've
been forgiven.
That's what we're doing.
Right.
And that, and you, you're right.
You blunt the, the force of, of the gospel when you hide that amazing truth.
Yeah.
I think a lot of this is like, we talk about, is this prayer a template?
Like right there, you just take that one line.
Like you could apply that to other aspects.
I don't know if Jesus is really hitting on that.
I mean, obviously forgiveness is the obvious point, but there are a lot of other aspects
of being a Christian that if we're not actually doing what we claim to do or claim to believe,
like it's, it's hard to spread the kingdom message that way.
You know, it's, it's, you're really stunting the growth of the kingdom when you do that.
So I think that's a really good point, then.
So moving on to the next temptation.
All right.
Why would Jesus pray for God not to lead us into temptation?
Is that something God would ever do?
I mean, if so, I don't think that would make God a very nice guy.
It kind of sounds bad if he's tempting people, right?
What, what's Jesus praying here?
I mean, especially when he combines the phrase with, but deliver us from evil.
I think this section is the most fascinating part of the whole prayer.
Yeah.
And the most confusing, um, like I did a real deep dive onto this and like broke down the
Greek and went into the Hebrew and kind of like I was trying to digest what is, what
is he really talking about here?
And I think the, the main point that I've come to is that the difference between a temptation
and a test.
Yeah.
Cause we like, that's a huge theme in the Bible throughout the whole thing is that the
test, but when it comes to temptation, it's not God.
It's Satan.
Jesus gets tempted in the wilderness, not by God, but by Satan.
And the idea of testing versus temptation, God doesn't tempt in, uh, in James one, um,
verse 13, no one is being tempted.
Should say, I am being tempted by God for God cannot be tempted by evil and he himself
tempts no one, but earlier right before this in James one, blessed is the person who endures
testing because, uh, when he is approved, he will receive the crown of life that he has
promised to those who love him.
Those are different words.
Yeah.
And the word testing here is the exact same word that in Greek as in the Lord's prayer.
So I don't think that that word temptation is really a great representation because, um,
the evil one is tempting.
So God's not leading you into temptation.
He's leading you into a testing by being tempted by evil.
Like that's just going to come.
It's part of the world.
Satan's trying to tempt you and it's like a test of your faith.
Like Peter, Peter is sifted by Satan, but God's not making Satan do that.
Yeah.
He's saying that's going to happen.
Is this, this is, this is hard to digest, right?
Because you've got Jesus on the one hand is saying, you know, you get these passages
where you're testing proves your faith, which is more valuable than gold.
But then he's, Jesus say, Hey, don't even pray did not to get tested.
Right.
Like let's avoid that.
Yeah.
Like lead us through all this temptation that's going to come and help us pass the test.
Okay.
Yeah.
And it's just to not fall away when we are tempted because we know it's coming.
The evil one is going to tempt us.
Is it the desire that's at the heart of it that like that we'd be praying somehow to
not be tempted by these things like that our desires would be shifted toward?
I think it's like the word that comes to mind is overcoming.
Like we're going to fail.
We're going to sin.
But the idea of not letting that destroy you, like Satan is not in there to just annoy you.
Like he's here to ruin you and to lead you completely away from God, not to just kind
of put a rock in your shoe.
He's here to destroy you.
I mean, that's what we have to fight against.
And he'll use pleasure or pain.
Anything.
Whatever you can do, whatever you're vulnerable with is what's coming at you.
And might not the same situation be a test or a temptation depending on who your king
is.
Yeah.
That, you know, we talked earlier in the prayer about your kingdom come.
Remember God is your king.
So when you're in a situation that is difficult, that you have to make a moral decision about
not saying that all situations are like this, but it might be more of a temptation if God
is not your king.
Yeah.
I think tying those two together is interesting.
Oftentimes when I'm praying, um, your, your kingdom come, your will be done.
I'm actually thinking about how, you know, God, make me desire the things that you desire,
not the things in this world.
And so when you get down to temptation or test, it, it kind of goes together in a way.
I love what you're saying there.
Um, so, right.
Deliver us from the tests, deliver us from, from things being a faith destroying temptation.
Instead, let it build our faith in Jesus and in God.
And, um, I love this.
All right.
So, how do each of these parts of Jesus's prayer connect to each other?
What's the big picture about how Jesus is teaching us to pray?
Is there an overarching theme or point?
Yeah.
That's a big question.
It's a hard one to answer.
There's so many in there, but I think the, the two big points for me come down to one
one.
God is the one, I mean, really, I guess it's one.
God is in control.
God's in control of where I'm going to go in life.
It's his purposes, not my purposes.
God's in control and I can trust him because he's my father and he cares about me and he's
in control of, and he's had power to, to do what he's, uh, his purposes are.
Um, and God is going to control and we'll take care of my like day-to-day needs.
Um, so it's, when I, when I'm just, you know, when I come into prayer, I tend to take control
or fear that I'm losing control.
Um, this is actually a prayer about submission to, um, the, the loving control of, of my father
who sees all things, who knows how the whole universe is supposed to be.
And if I walk in his path and doing his will, he's going to take care of me.
Yeah.
I think that it is, it, it's, it's, there's so much genius in it.
It's, it's prayer, but it's more than prayer.
It's, it, it, it helps us to understand submission.
It helps us to understand what part of what goes on in our life is God's and what part
is ours and how those two things need to go together.
How the, the submission of our will to his will, um, makes us more powerful, makes us
more like him.
Uh, it, it's the, but that, I, that I think is the overarching thing is that it is, um,
it is a prayer that is, uh, that causes change that at the, at the end of the prayer, when
it's talking about who we are and what we do, that is guided by the beginning of the
prayer when it's talking about who God is and what he does.
I think the way this prayer, what always struck me about this prayer, um, is how different
it is from, I think my idea of prayer now where it's like, I'm trying to give God everything,
but this prayer is just so short.
And so, you know, it's, it's just right to the point.
And I think that the way I'm starting to think of it, just even after this conversation,
it's like, we, we talk about all these things surrounding the words that were actually spoken.
And when we pray this prayer, all those things are coming into our mind and wrestling around
in there.
It's almost like a reset.
You pray this short prayer and you get all of that extra that surrounds it, boiled into
your, into that one little section and that, that is what you're having to think about
as you pray it.
And it's genius.
I mean, it boils down the whole Testament, the idea of the kingdom and it hits all these
points and all of these things are coming and rattling around in my head when I think
about these prayers without having to actually read them.
Like it's a reminder.
Yeah.
Like it's so cool.
I just love that.
In some ways, this prayer is almost like the, I mean, the beatitudes I could say is the
heart of the prayer, but the sermon, but this part feels like it's the heart too somehow.
You know, it's right.
It's almost in the middle.
It's, it's in the context of what he's talking about in Matthew six.
It feels like it just picks up that theme throughout everything we've been talking about
with the beginning with how it would be your name, right?
This is for God's glory.
And then each of those things, you know, it's not your public prayer for your own self.
For, you know, we were talking about how often we, we, if we start to pray this prayer, it
won't check.
Right.
Nope.
It's not about you.
It's about God.
And relationship with God as a father and it's very personal and it just goes down to
so seeing God for how incredibly worth worthy he is, how holy he is and reorienting our
lives to his glory and not our own.
And all of those things are kind of in service of that larger theme, I think.
Yeah.
So if we have time, we have time for one more question, I think.
How did Jesus follow this pattern that he delineates in his, this prayer here?
How did, how did he use the Lord's prayer as a template?
Some examples that come to mind?
I thought immediately of Gethsemane is that was a, that was a time when of intense difficult
things for Jesus and it was a, it was, you know, it was literally life and death and
his prayer was if it's possible, after all the angst and anxiety of what he's going through,
I thought what I'd be praying is God, there has to be another way.
I just, I don't think I can do this.
I don't, I don't want to do it.
It doesn't make sense.
I'm the best thing that's ever walked on the face of the earth.
Can I stay here a little longer?
It just doesn't, I just can't deal with it.
But Jesus, the words that we get are, if it's possible, may this cut past from me, but not
my will, your will be done.
And it's very succinct.
And maybe he went through a lot of other anxiety before he got to that point, but the point
that he got to was a mirroring almost of the language from the, from the Lord's prayer
here is not my will.
I, if it's, if it's possible, please let it pass, but I don't want this to be what I
want.
I want it to be what you want.
Yeah, that's so good.
Your will be done.
That's the one term that I think sticks out in my head the most about the Lord's prayer,
but actually just going through the, this whole section here, I mean, in verse 41, he's
in Gethsemane and he says to his disciples, pray that you will not enter into temptation.
Same word.
Yeah, yeah.
Same word.
It's like, that's fascinating.
I mean, like he even puts that in there and it says, my father, you know, it's God that
invoking the father as, as the ultimate and like his authority over his own is just like
that one prayer is fascinating.
And then there's also the idea of the name.
Like I'm just so stuck on the, the idea of the name as a, as an important point in, in
Jesus and in the history of Judaism and in the whole Old Testament and the Holy Scriptures
and when Jesus prays to be glorified in John 17, says, I revealed your name to the men
who you gave me out of the world.
I mean, he's revealing the nature and name of God.
And when we pray to respect that, like, or treat that as holy and hallowed, like it's,
it's about Jesus.
Like he, it, it doesn't say I, I Jesus am all of these things in the Lord's prayer.
He's just teaching us how to pray and we're praying to the father, but I mean, Jesus is
representing all of these things.
Yeah.
And he, he acts on it after he says his prayer, he lives the exact prayer out.
Like he's not tempted.
He's the one that actually brings the kingdom.
He's the one that actually treats the father as holy and respects him.
And he does his will, not his own.
And like he just fulfills this whole entire prayer after he says it.
Yeah.
It's pretty awesome.
It's pretty, it's just so cool.
And his own prayers, like just show that they're threaded with the same themes.
So cool.
Yeah.
John 17 is like this long form prayer.
It's one of the longest, I think it's the longest one we have that Jesus gives.
And so, you know, it starts with Jesus calling God father.
He talks about glorifying.
He asks God glorifies Jesus, his son, so that your son may glorify you.
So it's all about God's glory.
He's praying for his followers, you know, this communal aspect that God's going to
strengthen us, protect us, protect us from the evil one.
So there's a lot of those same themes in there as well.
And that prayer feels particularly poignant for me because it's, it's what Jesus is kind
of leaving with his disciples right before he goes to the cross.
And obviously he leaves us much more, but that he, you know, near the beginning of his
ministry teaches them to pray in Matthew six.
And then in John 17, he's showing them one more time how to do this.
I think that means a lot.
Yeah.
This was the one I thought of too, right away.
All of the similarities you all have mentioned about the father, glorifying him, you know,
sending his followers out into the world just as he was sent and that, you know, keep them
from the evil one, right?
I mean, there's just so much in here that it's wonderful to see he's so consistent.
He's not like verbatim doing everything or even necessarily like he jumps around a little
bit, but those things are right in the heart of what he's praying.
This is awesome.
Yeah.
This is really great.
Thank you guys.
Thanks.
Terrific.
Okay, we did it in one.
That was good.
I'm glad we got that in one because that would have been a really short one after that.
Let's recap everything we just talked about.
After we did the recap, it would have been like one more statement.
Yeah, that was good though.
Thank you guys.
I was very interested to see how this was going to go.
Like I had no idea how I was going to behave when like the, you're actually, you know,
it's on record because I'm usually a ranter.
Yeah.
You needed well, raining it in, but still letting your excitement go.
Yeah.
I've been on for a long time.