Hey, I'm Matt Brownell.
And I'm Van Owens.
And I'm Tim Adams.
Welcome to Climbing the Mountain, where we dive into the scriptures and discuss themes,
connections, and real life application.
We're kicking off a series here where we're going to examine the Sermon on the Mount and
discuss implications for this teaching for Christians today.
Welcome back.
We are continuing with a section that we started a couple episodes ago in Matthew 6.
And we said at that time that we had this beautiful aside, the Lord's Prayer.
We're coming back to it now.
It's I don't know if you grew up with going to confessional or you watched a movie where
someone is in there and you heard, hey, say a certain number of our fathers.
A lot of church services pray that prayer at some point.
It's the Lord's Prayer.
And it's just another way that this sermon is like the goat, the greatest of all time,
not like a sheep and goat kind of thing.
It's got the goat of prayers in it.
And I'm going to tip the scales a little on this discussion from that set and say that
I think there's nothing wrong with praying it word for word.
You can do that.
You can do some, sometimes I do that and I think about every word I'm saying, what it
means.
I've been to a lot of services though that where the audience just recites the prayer
and it feels dead somehow.
Like devoid of meaning, just performance, which in the immediate context of what we're
looking before, what Jesus was preaching, not doing your acts of worship to be seen by
others.
It feels ironic in that context.
But anyway, it's supposed to be so much more than just recitation, right?
It's not a rote expression on one end.
It's not some magic incantation on the other.
There's so much to this and I'm really excited to get into it.
And I'm really excited to invite Ryan Moynihan to this discussion.
Ryan joins us here for this.
Ryan, do you want to introduce yourself?
Hi everyone.
I'm Ryan.
Thanks for having me.
I love the Bible.
I'm obsessed with learning about the Bible.
It's just so fascinating.
A little bit about me.
My journey is a long journey, but I took the intellectual route.
I was not the touchy-feely kind of guy.
And when I went and tried to figure out if I even thought God exists, just let me to
Jesus.
And then I got really obsessed with studying the Bible, pre-baptism, pre-Christian life.
And it was a wild journey.
And I just love that I can keep continuing it.
And now I can talk about it with people because back then no one had any idea what I was talking
about.
And it was weird.
So now I love being part of the community and just being able to join you guys and talk
Bible.
Awesome.
Terrific.
Welcome.
Van, you want to read this section?
I think we're going to do Matthew 6, 5 through 15.
Sure thing.
Matthew 6 starting in verse 5.
And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues
and on the street corners to be seen by others.
Truly I tell you, they've received their reward in full.
But when you pray, go into your room, close the door, and pray to your Father who is unseen.
Then your Father who sees what is done is secret, in secret will reward you.
And when you pray, do not keep babbling on like pagans, for they think they will be heard
because of their many words.
Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask Him.
This then is how you should pray.
Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name.
Your kingdom come, your will be done on earth as it is in heaven.
Give us today our daily bread and forgive us our debts as we also have forgiven our debtors.
Then lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one.
For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will
also forgive you.
But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive you your sins.
Thanks.
So first question, how do we know Jesus intended this prayer to be a template?
Is there anything preceding it in His description of hypocrites and pagans that sheds light
on this?
Do you see this as a template?
I definitely see it as a template.
Why?
So I did something on the Lord's Prayer a while back and it shocked me how Jewish this prayer
is, like the form of it, the wording, the phrasing, and then in contrast to the pagans
and repetition.
I can go into that more, but I just think it's such a Jewish prayer at its heart and
in contrast to the Gentiles who used to just try to pester the gods.
Listen to me, repeating over and over and I think when I think of the Lord's Prayer
pre-studying it, I always thought of the Lord's Prayer as kind of like that repetitious, just
make sure you say the exact thing over and over and over.
I don't think that's the heart of the prayer and what Jesus is talking about, but there's
some aspect of that in Jewish tradition, I think.
Tell me more about that.
So when I was looking into it, there's a couple common Jewish prayers that are at the heart
of Judaism and they have been for a really, really long time.
One's the Amadah, which is the 18 benedictions or 18 blessings and some of the phrasing in
that is just spot on with what the Lord's Prayer is talking about.
The other is the Qadish, which is the mourner's prayer and that's kind of a communal prayer
and you don't really say it alone.
But the Amadah is like, you say it three times a day and it's 18 benedictions kind of long
and this is almost shrunken down into the heart of the prayer.
That's really interesting.
It blew me away when I first looked into it and some of the phrasing we can get into as
we go through the prayer, but the use of the Father, our Father and the name and God's
will and kingdom and all of that stuff is just kind of threaded in.
Praying it three times a day.
I don't know if anyone's looked into the diddicat, but it even talks about praying the Lord's
Prayer three times a day and just kind of those connections that we can get into more.
That's very interesting.
It feels very Jewish to me after studying it, but pre-studying it, I had no idea how.
I almost separated it completely into Christianity prayer, but I don't think that's what Jesus
was getting at.
No.
You mentioned the pagans would repeat a bunch of things and I love the image from First
Kings, I think it's chapter 18 where Elijah's with the priests of Baal.
That's a perfect example of this, where they're wailing and he's taunting them after a while
as they're marching around.
Hey, maybe he's in the bathroom and maybe he just can't hear you.
He's gone on a journey.
They're yelling louder and cutting themselves.
Elijah did one prayer and boom.
I love that.
Okay, but yes, there's a big difference between the pagan kind of thing and then I love what
you were saying about the Jewish influence on this.
Yeah.
When I think about this, I have difficulty seeing from just the text.
Jesus explicitly means, pray these words word for word or if he's saying, use this as a
template for your own prayer.
It seems like it could be either one from the immediate context from me.
What I do know is that Jesus prays many other prayers that are not these words.
That would lead me to believe that this is a manner of praying and if I investigate how
Jesus prays in other contexts, I think John 17 is a really great example of that.
We see a lot of this flow in that prayer and other prayers.
That to me gives a lot of credence that this is a template.
This is a teaching us how to pray instead of just a set of words.
But at the same time, these sets of words are extremely dense and there's so much to
unpack.
There is I think a lot of power too in being able to recite this exact prayer knowing what
it says, knowing what it means.
I think you're right.
And knowing, like getting to the heart of what each request or petition is and you could
spend a lot more time on it.
I don't think that Jesus is saying like you were saying, like look at some of the other
prayers he does.
I don't think he's saying anything against having long prayers.
I think he prayed all night before he selected the apostles or even repeating things.
Like in the Garden of Gethsemane, he's like going and asking the same thing three times,
but it's not a robotic kind of rote thing.
It's really heartfelt.
Yeah.
I sort of echo what you said in the beginning, Matt, that there's nothing wrong with praying
this prayer word for word.
Occasionally, but I think and what you were saying, Tim, is something that I was thinking
about as well.
Each phrase in this prayer is so packed and dense with meaning and which we'll talk about
obviously as we go along here that it does feel like a template.
It does feel like you could stop almost at each line and spend some time just thinking
about that concept, praying through what does it mean when you say, hello, be your name
and really digging in your relationship with God in the midst of that thought.
It feels like both, it feels like it is a prayer that you could just pray, but it also
feels like a template for something for you to use to go into a deeper level of prayer.
Yeah.
Well, let's dive into each of these segments then.
First off, what do you think is special about the way Jesus starts this prayer?
Can anyone call God their father?
Why or why not?
So yeah, this was a surprisingly challenging question for me.
Can anybody call God father?
Because sometimes in my own prayer life, it is difficult for me to say the word father
and because I think of all the implications that that word has.
Have I been treating him like a father?
Have I been respectful to him?
So if I'm feeling like I've been particularly sinful, I might not say father.
I might just say dear God and go into the prayer like that and try to get back to a
place where I feel like I can call him father.
So in some ways it is difficult, but in other ways, God is the father of all of us.
He is the one who created us.
He made each of us the way that we are.
And so he is our father.
And although I don't think that there's anything wrong with addressing God as father, I think
that it's a very, it's a term of intimacy.
Yeah.
There is that tension though, right?
Like yes, he's our father.
He's created in that sense.
He's, you know, he's ultimate creator and we've been made in his image.
So he's our father in that sense.
But then he's also our father in heaven.
And so holy, holy, holy, right?
Like how do I relate to that?
Yeah.
I mean, this makes me think about John one where he talks about, yet to all who did
receive him, Jesus, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children
of God.
Children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or husband's will, but born
of God.
And a, Tertullian thinks that like in that phrase, like our father in heaven, that's
like an epitome of the whole gospel basically because it's, it's by claiming God as our
father, we're stating our faith in God and in Jesus and saying, I do believe in your
name.
And so I, you have now given me the chance to become your adopted child.
And so I, I would lean more towards that understanding that everyone's created the image of God, but
it is those who believe in the name of Jesus who truly can call God father because they
become his adopted children.
Yeah.
I love that.
That's actually, it reminds me, John eight, I think is where Jesus turns to the, the,
the people in the crowd and he's, he says something like, if God were your father, you
would love me.
They didn't love them.
So he concludes that God isn't their father.
So yeah.
Yeah.
That's very interesting.
Cause I mean, you think about the heritage of Israel.
I mean, they are supposed to be the children of God Yahweh.
Yeah.
Like that is, he takes them as his own children out of Egypt.
I called my son.
And I think, I think that the tradition of like Christianity is kind of separated a little
bit, um, the Jewish nature of kind of that, that heritage of having God as our father.
And like now we get to call it because of Jesus, but they should have been the children
of God.
And when Jesus came, he didn't find them acting like children.
Yeah.
You know, and it's really interesting.
It is really interesting.
And in some ways Jesus is the fulfillment of the son, right?
And he's the new Adam and he's the new and he reconstitutes the 12 tribes and the 12,
I mean, it's, it's, that's a whole nother fascinating thing, but you're right.
There is this, it feels sad some way, right?
Like this should have been this certain, I don't know.
Yeah.
Like we're like in the new Israel really.
I mean, yeah.
Like I was just looking through some of my notes here and in John 5, 14 to 18, Jesus is
basically talking to the Jews and, um, he says, my father's working until now and I am
working.
And so on the count of this, the Jews were seeking even more to kill him because not
only was he breaking the Sabbath, but also he was calling God his own father, making
himself equal with God.
Like they should all be expected to be calling God their father and like Jesus says that
they, they're not happy.
Like I found that interesting as I was looking through it.
Like you, that shouldn't be a problem for you.
You know, like, and even in the Amadah, like their, their prayer, I mean, it even says
right in the beginning, um, forgive us our father for we have sinned.
Like, what's so weird about calling God your father?
I don't know.
Uh, let's look at the, uh, let's look at the next piece here.
The word hallowed.
It's not a real common word you hear today.
Right.
I guess the, I guess the closest we might have in our vernacular is Halloween.
Right.
We, you think hallowed ground like a cemetery.
What are you saying?
Right.
It's something separate, holy, sanctified.
It's what God does for us through his Holy spirit.
He sanctifies us.
And when Jesus uses the word here though, what does he mean by hallowed be your name?
We aren't praying that God would sanctify himself for his name.
Are we?
He's already holy, holy, holy.
Yeah.
I think that, um, hallowed is one of those I call them, I call them religious meaningless
words because we read them and we go, it's easy to go right past them without thinking
about what does that mean?
What does it, what does it mean for something to be hallowed?
For some reason, my mind went straight to the Gettysburg address where, you know, Lincoln
called it hallowed ground.
It was a cemetery for the, uh, men who had died in that battle.
And, um, so I, and I really, I dove into that word I found, um, or I remembered this quote
from a CS Lewis that I'd like to read because I think it gets at what I think hallowed probably
means it's from, um, CS Lewis book, the problem of pain.
And, um, he's talking about the word, he's talking about a quality of God that he names,
uh, the numinous.
And it says those who have not met this term may be introduced to it by the following device.
Suppose you were told there was a tiger in the next room.
You would know that you were in danger and would probably feel fear.
But if you were told there is a ghost in the next room and believed it, you would feel
indeed what is often called fear, but of a different kind.
It would not be based on the knowledge of danger for no one is primarily afraid of what
a ghost may do to him, but of the mere fact that it is a ghost.
It is uncanny rather than dangerous.
And the special kind of fear it excites may be called dread.
But the uncanny one has reached the fringes of the numinous.
Now suppose that you were told simply there is a mighty spirit in the other room and believed
it.
Your feelings would then be even less like the mere fear of danger, but the disturbance
would be profound.
You would feel wonder and a certain shrinking, a sense of inadequacy to cope with such a
visitant and of prostration before it and emotion which might be expressed in Shakespeare's
words under it, my genius is rebuked.
This feeling may be described as awe and the object which excites it as the numinous.
And I think that that's what I think when you say hallowed be your name that what we're
saying is that before God everything is prostrate.
God is something wholly other than anything else that we can experience in any way.
He's above it and beyond it in a way that should strike in us.
And words get tricky here.
It's not it's not fear, but it's like fear.
It's just a wonder and an awe.
Words that we use so much for so many other things.
I mean, we can say, you know, those eggs were awesome.
They weren't not in the real sense of what that word means.
Awesome is overused.
Right.
And but we have all these overused words, but God really is awesome.
God is someone who we just fall down before.
And I think that's what that term is getting to.
So in that sense, it's like when we say hallowed be your name, you're thinking it's almost
like a reminder to us to have this is coming into the presence of someone who who's very
presence in existence inspires true awe.
Yeah.
And it's very unlike how pagans think of their gods.
They think of their gods almost as just like really, really, really, really strong people
who you would be afraid of because they could break you in half because they're really,
really, really, really strong.
But how it goes beyond that.
Yeah.
I was struggling with this one a little bit because I was thinking, is it a is it am I
praying that in my heart, I would revere God as holy or am I praying that his name would
be regarded as holy in the world?
I don't think you can make his name any more holy than it already is.
He is holy.
And so I don't know.
I think where I landed on this was that I think primarily what I'm hearing this in Jesus'
words is that it's some expression from him about how much he reveres God the Father.
It's like this heart level response and he loves who he is, the holy one.
And it's just coming from his heart and mind and his inner being.
And I think it's a beautiful way to start this prayer, right?
I don't have that state of mind so often when I approach God.
And I want to.
Yeah.
I think the word holy is what I come to.
Like the Hebrew term, kodesh, holiness, the idea of being in the temple or in the presence
of God like brings on a whole new meaning than just like, oh, I'm talking about God.
It's like you're talking with God.
Like that's fearful.
Like in Isaiah 8, Isaiah 813, sanctify the Lord himself and he will be your fear.
And if you trust him, he will become a sanctuary for you and you will not encounter him as
an obstacle or a stone like a fall from a rock.
And then actually right before that, but the Lord of hosts, him you shall honor as holy.
And that same word there.
Let him be your fear and let him be your dread.
Those are just two different versions.
One was from the Septuagint, which is the same exact Greek word that's used in, in this,
the Lord's prayer there.
That same exact Greek word is used as, as holy should honor him as holy.
Let him be your fear.
Just like you were talking about van with fear.
It's like, I think sometimes when we, when I pray, I don't know if you guys have the
same thing.
It seems very informal.
Yeah.
I think we could all do with a little bit more like reverence for God, like treating
him as like the awesome God, the unknowable God, the father that he really is.
And through Jesus, we can get access to that.
Like, like a respect for it almost.
There is such tension though in this, isn't there?
Because you've got on the one hand everything you were just saying.
And then on the other hand, but he wants us to call him father.
Like it's awesome.
I, I think that's kind of insane.
Cause I think about my kid and how he approaches me with like total confidence in my love for
him.
He can come tell me anything at any time and often does and I'm busy doing something else.
But dad, I want to show you something I just did.
Like he's just coming to me and talking to me all the time.
And I have that visual and I think, wow.
I can, I can do that with God who is so unbelievably holy.
Like, how do I reconcile that?
The tension, but there, I agree with what you're saying about the tension.
So I have us at your son is still a kid.
I have a son who's 27.
And so we had a conversation not long ago about the way that he approaches me sometimes.
And I say, yeah, you're, you're a man now and you're in a different phase in your life
and our relationship is different.
You're not 100% reliant on me, but there are certain things, certain ways that you approach
me that are unacceptable to me.
That's interesting.
That are just, you can't, you can't say to me, he said something to me.
I can't remember what it was.
He, oh, he, he was dismissive of me.
I was talking to him and he kind of waved his hand like that.
And I said, so I, I, I sense that you didn't really mean what that felt like to me, but
you can't approach me like that.
You can't treat me like that.
We are both just guys.
We both have imperfections.
You know a lot of my weaknesses.
I know a lot of yours, but I'm your father.
You should treat me with a certain amount of respect in my house.
And I, I just feel, I feel like I can demand that because you're my son, even though you're
27, you're always going to be that.
And it also reminded me of, I had a friend when I was in college, when he prayed, he
used to call God daddy.
And I said, I just said, I had to tell him, I said, you know, who am I to interfere?
You're in your relationship with God.
Maybe you know him like that, but it's just not reverent enough for me.
Daddy is not a term.
It's a term of intimacy.
Yes.
But it's not reverent enough.
Yeah.
I don't, I don't know if some of our hears might have heard that Abba father means daddy.
I don't think it does actually.
Uh, I think that's, uh, something, there was a paper written in the seventies where it
was suggested, but I don't believe that's actually true.
Oh, that's news to me.
Yeah.
I've heard, I've heard it said that way, but I never actually verified it.
I know the Hebrew word is off for like father, but I don't know what the relation to Abba
is is air make or.
Yeah.
It was another word for father.
Yeah.
Okay.
Yeah.
Like, I don't know.
I mean, when I think of my father, I don't think like, like there's a little, there's
a little sense of like, I need to have respect for your parents.
Like, especially when you're like young kid, like there's like, okay, I know I can ask
him for anything, but if I do something that's going to make a matter like really disappoint
him, you know, like there's a little sense of reverence there.
And I think that when we talk about God as a father, it's not just like, he just gives
you presence all the time.
Like, like you have to respect him, you know, and I, I've been sure, like when I, when I
think about the Lord's prayer, I try to implement some of that.
And like, it's a good reminder because sometimes it just gets really informal.
And I also think it starts to sway the, the way I pray in the order of importance, like
starting with God rather than just like jumping into everything that I'm struggling with
or that I want help with or whatever.
Yeah.
I think that framing is really, really important.
Yeah.
Absolutely.
Well, we made it through this little section.
We're going to come back to this.
This is, this is awesome in the real way that I mean that.
All right.
I hadn't heard that before.
I've heard people say Abba is like daddy.
Yeah, I think something in me rejects it.
I've heard that and I had no idea if it's true.
I actually probably should have looked into that, but I think it was 1971.
I don't remember the person, but it was in a book that they wrote a commentary about.
And I have to go look for the reference.
But when I read that, I was like, haha.
I always thought that was suspect.
I just, it just feels so odd because like in Judaism, like, like when I took Hebrew
classes, like my teacher would not let us say Yahweh in class.
Right.
Like you had to say Adonai.
Like it's a word that you were not allowed to say.
It was like to think that you could just call God daddy.
Maybe Jesus says that in John five and they're like, what?
You're saying that, you know, like, I don't know.
But like, I don't know.
I feel like Jesus can say it, but I'm like, yeah, I'm not sure.
So I'm just going to be cautious there.