1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:08,840 Hey, I'm Matt Brownell. 2 00:00:08,840 --> 00:00:10,480 And I'm Van Owens. 3 00:00:10,480 --> 00:00:12,160 And I'm Tim Adams. 4 00:00:12,160 --> 00:00:18,120 Welcome to Climbing the Mountain, where we dive into the scriptures and discuss themes, 5 00:00:18,120 --> 00:00:21,280 connections, and real life application. 6 00:00:21,280 --> 00:00:24,960 We're kicking off a series here where we're going to examine the Sermon on the Mount and 7 00:00:24,960 --> 00:00:31,960 discuss implications for this teaching for Christians today. 8 00:00:31,960 --> 00:00:36,120 Hey, all. 9 00:00:36,120 --> 00:00:45,800 Excited to come together again for our very last episode on Enemy Love and Retaliation. 10 00:00:45,800 --> 00:00:52,040 This is part five, not part six, as I mentioned in last episode. 11 00:00:52,040 --> 00:00:55,760 But we've obviously been having an extended discussion about this. 12 00:00:55,760 --> 00:01:00,040 If you haven't listened to the previous four parts before you're listening to this one, 13 00:01:00,040 --> 00:01:01,600 yep, probably should. 14 00:01:01,600 --> 00:01:07,040 And so we're just going to dive in to where we were last time. 15 00:01:07,040 --> 00:01:15,760 So one thing we didn't address before in our discussion was the relationship between the 16 00:01:15,760 --> 00:01:16,760 government and the Christian. 17 00:01:16,760 --> 00:01:22,280 This is kind of the last big theme that I want to make sure that we discuss. 18 00:01:22,280 --> 00:01:29,400 And Van, you brought up Romans 13:1-4 before, which I think is really critical 19 00:01:29,400 --> 00:01:30,840 to this discussion. 20 00:01:30,840 --> 00:01:36,480 And it discusses how Christians are supposed to submit to the governing authorities, and 21 00:01:36,480 --> 00:01:39,920 that the one in authority is God's servant for your good. 22 00:01:39,920 --> 00:01:41,360 And Matt, you discussed that. 23 00:01:41,360 --> 00:01:45,480 That's even if the authority is not a great one, because this was written when Nero was 24 00:01:45,480 --> 00:01:48,160 in charge. 25 00:01:48,160 --> 00:01:53,360 So in the previous conversations, I feel like we acknowledged the government's God-given 26 00:01:53,360 --> 00:01:58,080 role in maintaining peace and order, and that the call is for Christians to submit to the 27 00:01:58,080 --> 00:02:01,840 government's authority, even if that government is harsh. 28 00:02:01,840 --> 00:02:07,960 What I also understood from the conversation, more pertinent to us as Christians, is that 29 00:02:07,960 --> 00:02:11,780 there can also be great opportunities for Christians to serve in government offices 30 00:02:11,780 --> 00:02:13,040 or jobs. 31 00:02:13,040 --> 00:02:19,680 For example, a judge, police officer, or military personnel, in order for us as Christians to 32 00:02:19,680 --> 00:02:24,680 be a redeeming force and a light in these places of great influence. 33 00:02:24,680 --> 00:02:30,560 So I think I'll first just ask, does that summary align with what you guys think? 34 00:02:30,560 --> 00:02:32,400 I would say yes. 35 00:02:32,400 --> 00:02:36,800 I think that is a good summary. 36 00:02:36,800 --> 00:02:39,560 I'll say a bit more. 37 00:02:39,560 --> 00:02:41,240 Generally yes. 38 00:02:41,240 --> 00:02:45,880 I think you're right, Romans 13 was written during Nero. 39 00:02:45,880 --> 00:02:48,040 I think it's an interesting time. 40 00:02:48,040 --> 00:02:52,560 There's some similarities, but a lot of things that are different about that time. 41 00:02:52,560 --> 00:03:00,120 You had Nero, you had the temple was still around, so you had a whole religious system 42 00:03:00,120 --> 00:03:11,040 that was very influential and powerful, and that Jesus had condemned when he was around. 43 00:03:11,040 --> 00:03:17,080 And walking through it, turning over tables. 44 00:03:17,080 --> 00:03:25,120 So you had, it's not exactly the same, but I think Paul's writing here, we're supposed 45 00:03:25,120 --> 00:03:32,040 to love everyone, including those in authority, even unjust authorities, because we trust 46 00:03:32,040 --> 00:03:33,920 our ultimate judge. 47 00:03:33,920 --> 00:03:39,320 And in this way, we respect God's love of justice, and we live in peace as much as it 48 00:03:39,320 --> 00:03:42,280 depends on us. 49 00:03:42,280 --> 00:03:46,000 I think a lot of this, whether a Christian is called to serve in government offices 50 00:03:46,000 --> 00:03:52,000 or jobs, is, I think it's going to come down to their own conscience, to a degree. 51 00:03:52,000 --> 00:03:57,840 And to complicate matters more, that conscience might change over the course of your life. 52 00:03:57,840 --> 00:04:04,360 You may not feel the same way about something, your conscience may be pricked at the longer 53 00:04:04,360 --> 00:04:11,400 you're in a situation, or the longer you are walking through this process of sanctification 54 00:04:11,400 --> 00:04:15,800 that we're on here. 55 00:04:15,800 --> 00:04:21,600 With respect to motive, though, I'm not sure I would say we should serve in order to be 56 00:04:21,600 --> 00:04:24,960 redeeming forces of light in certain places. 57 00:04:24,960 --> 00:04:28,000 I think wherever we go, that should be what we do. 58 00:04:28,000 --> 00:04:30,840 We should reflect Christ's light into the world. 59 00:04:30,840 --> 00:04:36,160 So I don't want our hearer to think that we're advocating for more Christian judges or something 60 00:04:36,160 --> 00:04:37,160 like that. 61 00:04:37,160 --> 00:04:39,440 I don't think that's not… 62 00:04:39,440 --> 00:04:46,560 But if you were called to a particular vocation, don't be surprised if God wants you to somehow 63 00:04:46,560 --> 00:04:50,720 be a light there, because he wants you to be a light wherever you are. 64 00:04:50,720 --> 00:04:57,360 I guess I see us having a lot of freedom in that respect, freedom and an overarching mission 65 00:04:57,360 --> 00:05:04,520 to be an image bearer that supersedes any subsequent choice because it's who we are, 66 00:05:04,520 --> 00:05:06,880 who we're made to be. 67 00:05:06,880 --> 00:05:13,920 So I guess maybe the way I'd look at it is if you find yourself in a position of authority, 68 00:05:13,920 --> 00:05:17,720 you suddenly are in the spotlight with more eyes on you. 69 00:05:17,720 --> 00:05:23,680 So you have a greater obligation to be a light because they will see your darkness. 70 00:05:23,680 --> 00:05:32,120 And I think there's maybe an equivalence in how Paul instructs Timothy and Titus with 71 00:05:32,120 --> 00:05:35,000 respect to elder qualifications. 72 00:05:35,000 --> 00:05:41,040 Leaders are needed everywhere, both inside and outside the church, and you don't want 73 00:05:41,040 --> 00:05:45,560 untested bad leaders because leaders have influence. 74 00:05:45,560 --> 00:05:49,920 So I guess I'd end with a word of caution too. 75 00:05:49,920 --> 00:05:54,880 If anyone's hearing this and thinking, oh, good, I want this position of power, be careful 76 00:05:54,880 --> 00:06:01,080 what you wish for too because leaders in, you see it in the Bible, like there, you will 77 00:06:01,080 --> 00:06:05,840 be tested and it will involve a lot of suffering. 78 00:06:05,840 --> 00:06:14,040 And we can't do any kind of spiritual leadership without God working through us. 79 00:06:14,040 --> 00:06:19,400 And so it's really incumbent upon us to rely on his spirit, not our own. 80 00:06:19,400 --> 00:06:20,400 I don't know. 81 00:06:20,400 --> 00:06:30,120 I think that's really helpful clarification and is a really good baseline for the rest 82 00:06:30,120 --> 00:06:34,800 of our conversation. 83 00:06:34,800 --> 00:06:45,120 With that said then, focus leaning into the question of Christians in one of these positions, 84 00:06:45,120 --> 00:06:51,800 the Christians in a government officer job. 85 00:06:51,800 --> 00:06:59,960 One of the passages that we'll talk about maybe in many months is Matthew 6:24, which 86 00:06:59,960 --> 00:07:02,080 says, no one can serve two masters. 87 00:07:02,080 --> 00:07:05,160 Either you hate the one and love the other or you'll be devoted to the one despised the 88 00:07:05,160 --> 00:07:06,160 other. 89 00:07:06,160 --> 00:07:07,160 You cannot serve both God and money. 90 00:07:07,160 --> 00:07:11,880 That's talking about money, but the no one can serve two masters is just a blanket statement 91 00:07:11,880 --> 00:07:15,320 that Jesus is making to prove his point about money. 92 00:07:15,320 --> 00:07:20,120 And so ultimately you've got, you know, there's this question of authority. 93 00:07:20,120 --> 00:07:28,520 And this is really what I want to ask is how do we wrestle for the person who's in that 94 00:07:28,520 --> 00:07:30,120 government position? 95 00:07:30,120 --> 00:07:33,880 How do you wrestle with the concept of Jesus's ultimate authority over our life? 96 00:07:33,880 --> 00:07:38,320 You know, federal employees need to swear an oath before they begin an employment that 97 00:07:38,320 --> 00:07:42,520 says that they'll bear true faith and allegiance to the Constitution of the United States. 98 00:07:42,520 --> 00:07:44,680 It just says one example. 99 00:07:44,680 --> 00:07:49,360 And that's something that I learned that was all federal employees, which was news to 100 00:07:49,360 --> 00:07:50,360 me. 101 00:07:50,360 --> 00:07:55,360 I thought it was just people going into like military service, but it's just everyone. 102 00:07:55,360 --> 00:07:59,360 So how can we pledge allegiance both to the Constitution of the United States in this 103 00:07:59,360 --> 00:08:01,000 instance and to Jesus? 104 00:08:01,000 --> 00:08:05,200 You know, what do we do when those allegiances conflict? 105 00:08:05,200 --> 00:08:11,000 Well, I, and, you know, when I saw your question, I had to research that too. 106 00:08:11,000 --> 00:08:16,200 I thought all federal employees select a mailman has to pledge this, but they do. 107 00:08:16,200 --> 00:08:17,400 It's the same. 108 00:08:17,400 --> 00:08:26,120 It's the same pledge, whether you're a senator or a, you know, a postal worker. 109 00:08:26,120 --> 00:08:33,680 And so I think that, you know, the passage in Romans 13 is, and maybe it might be a good 110 00:08:33,680 --> 00:08:34,680 idea to read it. 111 00:08:34,680 --> 00:08:35,680 Yeah. 112 00:08:35,680 --> 00:08:36,680 Let's do it. 113 00:08:36,680 --> 00:08:39,960 Let's read Romans 13 starting in verse 1. 114 00:08:39,960 --> 00:08:46,840 It says, let everyone be subject to the governing authorities for there is no authority except 115 00:08:46,840 --> 00:08:49,720 that which God has established. 116 00:08:49,720 --> 00:08:53,760 The authorities that exist have been established by God. 117 00:08:53,760 --> 00:09:00,160 Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God is instituted. 118 00:09:00,160 --> 00:09:03,520 And those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 119 00:09:03,520 --> 00:09:08,520 For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. 120 00:09:08,520 --> 00:09:12,880 Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? 121 00:09:12,880 --> 00:09:18,560 Then do what is right and you will be commended for the one in authority is God's servant 122 00:09:18,560 --> 00:09:20,440 for your good. 123 00:09:20,440 --> 00:09:25,280 But if you do wrong, be afraid for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. 124 00:09:25,280 --> 00:09:31,080 They are God's servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 125 00:09:31,080 --> 00:09:37,200 It is necessary to submit to the authorities not only because of possible punishment, but 126 00:09:37,200 --> 00:09:40,720 also as a matter of conscience. 127 00:09:40,720 --> 00:09:45,520 This is also why you pay taxes for the authorities are God's servants who give their full time 128 00:09:45,520 --> 00:09:48,520 to governing give to everyone what you owe them. 129 00:09:48,520 --> 00:09:54,400 If you owe taxes pay taxes if revenue then revenue if respect then respect if honor then 130 00:09:54,400 --> 00:09:57,920 honor. 131 00:09:57,920 --> 00:10:03,080 And I think what what's happening in here. 132 00:10:03,080 --> 00:10:04,240 There's a couple of things. 133 00:10:04,240 --> 00:10:10,000 One is that we're talking about God as the ultimate authority. 134 00:10:10,000 --> 00:10:15,640 God establishes governments as his agents. 135 00:10:15,640 --> 00:10:20,960 And then there's a lot of talk about doing right or doing wrong that if you do right, 136 00:10:20,960 --> 00:10:23,040 you will be commended. 137 00:10:23,040 --> 00:10:25,840 If you do wrong, you will be punished. 138 00:10:25,840 --> 00:10:32,280 And I think that the doing right and doing wrong is doing right or doing wrong in the 139 00:10:32,280 --> 00:10:37,560 eyes of God and that God will either commend you. 140 00:10:37,560 --> 00:10:40,800 And if you do wrong, God will punish you. 141 00:10:40,800 --> 00:10:49,720 And there's a part of me that wonders is the government is the agent in there somewhere. 142 00:10:49,720 --> 00:10:58,080 But you if your allegiance is to God, then your allegiance to the government is somehow 143 00:10:58,080 --> 00:11:03,560 secondary to that or somehow does it matter? 144 00:11:03,560 --> 00:11:06,400 There is a sense that I get from the scriptures. 145 00:11:06,400 --> 00:11:13,480 I get it more strongly in another passage in 1 Peter 2:13. 146 00:11:13,480 --> 00:11:20,480 It says submit yourself for the Lord's sake to every human authority, whether to the emperor 147 00:11:20,480 --> 00:11:22,760 as the supreme authority. 148 00:11:22,760 --> 00:11:29,320 And I just find that interesting that it says it says whether to the emperor as the supreme 149 00:11:29,320 --> 00:11:30,320 authority. 150 00:11:30,320 --> 00:11:36,080 We know that Peter writing this letter doesn't think that the emperor is a more supreme authority 151 00:11:36,080 --> 00:11:37,640 than God. 152 00:11:37,640 --> 00:11:40,080 But he calls him the supreme authority there. 153 00:11:40,080 --> 00:11:45,880 Verse 14 or to governors who are sent by him to punish those who do wrong and to commend 154 00:11:45,880 --> 00:11:46,880 those who do right. 155 00:11:46,880 --> 00:11:52,200 There's a punishment commendation thing again for it is God's will that by doing good, you 156 00:11:52,200 --> 00:11:55,360 should silence the ignorant talk of foolish people. 157 00:11:55,360 --> 00:12:00,400 Live as free people, but do not use your freedom as a cover up for evil. 158 00:12:00,400 --> 00:12:03,040 Live as God's slaves. 159 00:12:03,040 --> 00:12:05,460 Show proper respect to everyone. 160 00:12:05,460 --> 00:12:10,560 Love the family of believers, fear God, honor the emperor. 161 00:12:10,560 --> 00:12:18,920 And this passage quite honestly is, it has a little bit of cognitive dissonance to me. 162 00:12:18,920 --> 00:12:24,760 It's like, so he says right there in the end, show proper respect, love the family believers, 163 00:12:24,760 --> 00:12:27,120 got that fear God. 164 00:12:27,120 --> 00:12:28,200 Yes. 165 00:12:28,200 --> 00:12:29,800 Honor the emperor. 166 00:12:29,800 --> 00:12:31,760 Nero? 167 00:12:31,760 --> 00:12:37,120 You know, the pagan who has set himself up to say that he is a God and that we should 168 00:12:37,120 --> 00:12:38,680 worship him. 169 00:12:38,680 --> 00:12:43,480 How can I honor him and also honor God? 170 00:12:43,480 --> 00:12:46,400 There must be a way. 171 00:12:46,400 --> 00:12:48,280 But how do we do it? 172 00:12:48,280 --> 00:12:53,520 And so that's the question that I ask as I was preparing for this. 173 00:12:53,520 --> 00:13:00,000 I'm not sure I landed on even an answer for myself, but it has to do with understanding 174 00:13:00,000 --> 00:13:10,920 who my ultimate authority is and that if I do good, how would submitting to the authority 175 00:13:10,920 --> 00:13:19,120 of God oppose submitting to the authority of the government that is over me? 176 00:13:19,120 --> 00:13:20,360 Yeah. 177 00:13:20,360 --> 00:13:29,680 And I think we're veering into a bit of a hypothetical again because this question assumes for us 178 00:13:29,680 --> 00:13:40,800 living in the United States that we'd be serving in that situation, which could look very different, 179 00:13:40,800 --> 00:13:45,440 different calculus entirely if we were in a different country. 180 00:13:45,440 --> 00:13:54,600 We live in an amazing experiment here of democracy, which some could say is under threat even 181 00:13:54,600 --> 00:14:03,680 now, but it's very different than other countries that could be more theocratic or something 182 00:14:03,680 --> 00:14:11,200 else that would be very difficult for one of us to serve in and take an oath to uphold 183 00:14:11,200 --> 00:14:19,720 because I think it would feel a lot worse than taking an oath to serve in some capacity 184 00:14:19,720 --> 00:14:20,920 in this government. 185 00:14:20,920 --> 00:14:26,640 Now, I say that with the full knowledge like what you were just bringing out there, Van, 186 00:14:26,640 --> 00:14:35,520 about how no government is the kingdom of God and we serve an ultimate king and judge 187 00:14:35,520 --> 00:14:42,280 and that is who our primary allegiance is to and supersedes every other kind of allegiance 188 00:14:42,280 --> 00:14:43,800 or pledge that we could make. 189 00:14:43,800 --> 00:14:51,360 Now, we talked last time also about making oaths and vows and I think we wrestled a little 190 00:14:51,360 --> 00:14:57,320 bit with that, but ultimately I think we were, at least I was landing a little bit on the, 191 00:14:57,320 --> 00:15:02,760 this is a loophole that Jesus is exposing and in our everyday speech, we should never 192 00:15:02,760 --> 00:15:05,760 have to make an oath or a vow. 193 00:15:05,760 --> 00:15:12,200 And I brought out how it may be in certain circumstances, momentous occasions like Galatians 1 194 00:15:12,200 --> 00:15:22,120 Hebrews 6 that maybe they're not intrinsically wrong to make such an oath. 195 00:15:22,120 --> 00:15:32,400 So anyway, with that backdrop, I'd say I wouldn't have a problem of making some kind of pledge 196 00:15:32,400 --> 00:15:38,080 allegiance to the Constitution of the United States as it stands now with its amendments. 197 00:15:38,080 --> 00:15:45,960 I think the first draft was problematic when you read it, there's some messed up language 198 00:15:45,960 --> 00:15:52,280 in there about indigenous people, slaves, women, the three-fifths of a non-free person 199 00:15:52,280 --> 00:15:55,600 language that's striking. 200 00:15:55,600 --> 00:16:01,960 So the amendments are pretty welcome additions, I think, but as a whole, I wouldn't have a 201 00:16:01,960 --> 00:16:09,800 huge problem with it, but the way I think of this is sort of like having dual citizenship. 202 00:16:09,800 --> 00:16:15,280 So our primary citizenship is in heaven with God, where Jesus is preparing a place for 203 00:16:15,280 --> 00:16:21,160 us, we're all aliens and foreigners here, and we have this kind of dual citizenship 204 00:16:21,160 --> 00:16:28,040 where we can live or maybe permanent resident might be a better way of looking at it, where 205 00:16:28,040 --> 00:16:33,800 you're allowed to live in this place and have a job and carry on a life, but your primary 206 00:16:33,800 --> 00:16:37,280 citizenship is elsewhere. 207 00:16:37,280 --> 00:16:42,560 And so I think that's maybe a good way of looking at it, at least that's the way I think 208 00:16:42,560 --> 00:16:46,080 of it, that we're all longing for this better home to return to. 209 00:16:46,080 --> 00:16:52,600 And that's how I think Peter looks at it, because he talks about us living as foreigners 210 00:16:52,600 --> 00:16:58,720 and strangers and aliens that were a whole royal priesthood, a holy nation. 211 00:16:58,720 --> 00:17:04,520 So that's right before the passage that you just quoted, Van. 212 00:17:04,520 --> 00:17:05,760 So yeah, I mean, I really like that. 213 00:17:05,760 --> 00:17:10,640 And I will say a couple of things just for the listeners. 214 00:17:10,640 --> 00:17:14,400 You don't need to swear the oath, you can swear or affirm the oath, so if you remember 215 00:17:14,400 --> 00:17:22,520 our oaths discussion, there's that little nuance again, do that, what you will. 216 00:17:22,520 --> 00:17:23,640 And then what was the other thing? 217 00:17:23,640 --> 00:17:33,520 The other thing is, you know, full disclosure, I'm a contractor for many state governments 218 00:17:33,520 --> 00:17:40,760 or federal governments, or many branches of the United States and have considered becoming 219 00:17:40,760 --> 00:17:42,800 a federal employee at times. 220 00:17:42,800 --> 00:17:48,920 So you know, I have wrestled with this particular oath because I didn't know I would have to 221 00:17:48,920 --> 00:17:53,680 make that oath if I was just a regular civilian federal employee. 222 00:17:53,680 --> 00:17:55,600 But there's a lot to wade through. 223 00:17:55,600 --> 00:17:58,800 I think mainly, most of the time when I think about this question of allegiance, I really 224 00:17:58,800 --> 00:18:00,760 do think about military service. 225 00:18:00,760 --> 00:18:07,600 I feel like that's like the extreme example, because although my knowledge of military 226 00:18:07,600 --> 00:18:13,720 is basically from friends who have explained it to me or from movies, which, you know, 227 00:18:13,720 --> 00:18:15,680 how to know how much you can trust that. 228 00:18:15,680 --> 00:18:23,000 But what's very clear is that you obey your commanding officer and that you're going to, 229 00:18:23,000 --> 00:18:32,880 you're loyal to the United States, you're loyal to your fellow civilians/citizens and you're 230 00:18:32,880 --> 00:18:34,960 going to protect, right? 231 00:18:34,960 --> 00:18:38,640 No matter what that looks like. 232 00:18:38,640 --> 00:18:45,640 So that's, I think, to me, like the crux of where, you know, that's the extreme example. 233 00:18:45,640 --> 00:18:53,400 And there's examples even through time of, I think, in Roman times, right, where Christians, 234 00:18:53,400 --> 00:19:05,200 people became Christians who had already pledged to be a soldier and decided their conscience 235 00:19:05,200 --> 00:19:07,080 said, I can't kill someone. 236 00:19:07,080 --> 00:19:09,280 And so they were executed. 237 00:19:09,280 --> 00:19:13,960 And so I think that is the extreme example where then, hey, if your conscience says, 238 00:19:13,960 --> 00:19:19,120 that would be the most extreme example I could think of. 239 00:19:19,120 --> 00:19:20,120 Yeah. 240 00:19:20,120 --> 00:19:27,080 And I think that's kind of where I go to, because that's a very clear example in the 241 00:19:27,080 --> 00:19:32,280 first few centuries is, you know, people could become Christians if they were in these positions 242 00:19:32,280 --> 00:19:35,880 of authority, but that was what they were held to. 243 00:19:35,880 --> 00:19:38,760 And the question is, is it just a matter of conscience or is this something that we're 244 00:19:38,760 --> 00:19:40,320 actually held to? 245 00:19:40,320 --> 00:19:46,040 And so with that, I'm like, the way I've been thinking about this as I'm prepping for 246 00:19:46,040 --> 00:19:51,720 this is like, you know, what role do I have as a Christian versus what role does the government 247 00:19:51,720 --> 00:19:52,720 have? 248 00:19:52,720 --> 00:19:53,720 And do they overlap? 249 00:19:53,720 --> 00:19:54,720 Or are they? 250 00:19:54,720 --> 00:19:57,840 And I think in some ways they certainly do, right? 251 00:19:57,840 --> 00:20:06,080 Like the government is meant to provide peace and order in this world to commend those who 252 00:20:06,080 --> 00:20:07,280 do right, right? 253 00:20:07,280 --> 00:20:13,120 I think those are things that as a Christian that I'm very much aligned with. 254 00:20:13,120 --> 00:20:18,280 But I wanted to draw out something in Romans 12 and 13. 255 00:20:18,280 --> 00:20:28,000 Yeah, I just keep thinking, like just it's striking me how different our present situation 256 00:20:28,000 --> 00:20:31,240 is from so many past centuries. 257 00:20:31,240 --> 00:20:36,760 Like I was just thinking about mulling over that example from the Roman citizen soldier 258 00:20:36,760 --> 00:20:44,560 who would rather be killed to fast forward to the Reformation and the Anabaptists who 259 00:20:44,560 --> 00:20:49,360 were killed under theocratic states by other purported Christians. 260 00:20:49,360 --> 00:20:58,120 And you know, like we live in such an anomaly almost, it feels like throughout time where 261 00:20:58,120 --> 00:21:03,240 we could have a separation of church and state and freedom of religion. 262 00:21:03,240 --> 00:21:12,680 And you know, like the wars that had raged in Europe for like centuries, we were like, 263 00:21:12,680 --> 00:21:15,280 no, we're not going to do that. 264 00:21:15,280 --> 00:21:25,080 And we have incredible freedom here that, I don't know, I just, I hope it lasts. 265 00:21:25,080 --> 00:21:26,080 Yeah. 266 00:21:26,080 --> 00:21:34,680 Well, you know, and I think that we also can see in a purely secular view of things, there 267 00:21:34,680 --> 00:21:37,360 are kind of levels of allegiance. 268 00:21:37,360 --> 00:21:47,400 And there are levels of, you know, somebody who is a regular citizen is not necessarily 269 00:21:47,400 --> 00:21:49,680 expected to go off to war. 270 00:21:49,680 --> 00:21:56,040 If the United States declares war on somebody, they don't expect us all to go to our house. 271 00:21:56,040 --> 00:21:59,280 And get our muskets and line up. 272 00:21:59,280 --> 00:22:05,360 Unless they do, unless there's a draft. 273 00:22:05,360 --> 00:22:10,120 And you know, so there are those different levels of allegiance. 274 00:22:10,120 --> 00:22:16,800 And there are, and I think even in the Bible, there are other examples, I think of Daniel. 275 00:22:16,800 --> 00:22:25,040 And now Daniel was a high official in his government, did not start that way, became 276 00:22:25,040 --> 00:22:31,840 a high official in his government, but his allegiance was clearly to God and not the 277 00:22:31,840 --> 00:22:39,120 king or it was to God and the king, to God first and then the king and how his enemies 278 00:22:39,120 --> 00:22:41,120 tried to leverage that against him. 279 00:22:41,120 --> 00:22:46,240 And, you know, a fascinating read for anybody who's interested in that type of thing. 280 00:22:46,240 --> 00:22:54,720 But that, and in the same token with us as believers, as Christians, there may be levels 281 00:22:54,720 --> 00:23:02,040 of allegiance as long as the very top level of that is to God. 282 00:23:02,040 --> 00:23:03,040 Yeah. 283 00:23:03,040 --> 00:23:04,920 And that, that is a good point. 284 00:23:04,920 --> 00:23:10,120 And when I think that's the crux of what no one can serve two masters means, is that 285 00:23:10,120 --> 00:23:13,040 ultimately one of the masters wins. 286 00:23:13,040 --> 00:23:19,640 And so you've got to, you can't be, you can't be unclear about which one's going to win 287 00:23:19,640 --> 00:23:22,560 when push comes to shove. 288 00:23:22,560 --> 00:23:28,000 And that seems to be very clear is that, and there's no disagreement in this room that 289 00:23:28,000 --> 00:23:31,760 the ultimate authority in a Christian's life is to God. 290 00:23:31,760 --> 00:23:34,480 So we don't need to pretend that that's an area of disagreement because we all agree 291 00:23:34,480 --> 00:23:35,480 on that one. 292 00:23:35,480 --> 00:23:36,480 Yes. 293 00:23:36,480 --> 00:23:37,480 Yay. 294 00:23:37,480 --> 00:23:49,800 So the part that I'm wrestling with is, so we saw very clearly in Romans 13 and in 1 295 00:23:49,800 --> 00:23:58,000 Peter 2 that the government are an avenger that they are meant to punish those who do 296 00:23:58,000 --> 00:23:59,000 wrong. 297 00:23:59,000 --> 00:24:00,440 That's from 1 Peter 2. 298 00:24:00,440 --> 00:24:05,400 And then from Romans 12, it says, he is a servant of God and an Avenger who carries 299 00:24:05,400 --> 00:24:08,040 out God's wrath on the wrong doer, right? 300 00:24:08,040 --> 00:24:15,120 So those are like very clear statements about one of the roles that the government has. 301 00:24:15,120 --> 00:24:24,480 And if you go back like five verses in Romans 12, you get an address to Christians and it 302 00:24:24,480 --> 00:24:28,680 says, repay no one evil for evil, but give thought to do what is honorable in the sight 303 00:24:28,680 --> 00:24:29,680 of all. 304 00:24:29,680 --> 00:24:35,520 So if it's possible so far as it depends on you, leave peaceably with everyone, beloved, 305 00:24:35,520 --> 00:24:40,040 never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God. 306 00:24:40,040 --> 00:24:43,560 For it is written, vengeance has mine, I will pay, says the Lord. 307 00:24:43,560 --> 00:24:47,720 So I was wrestling with that because it's very clear that government is an avenger 308 00:24:47,720 --> 00:24:53,360 of God and then it's very clear that Christians are never to avenge, at least never avenge 309 00:24:53,360 --> 00:24:57,880 themselves if we just stick exactly to what's written and not extrapolate. 310 00:24:57,880 --> 00:25:04,440 And so where I'm coming from is that, and this is a great example of it, is that a 311 00:25:04,440 --> 00:25:06,480 Christian and the government are given very different mandates. 312 00:25:06,480 --> 00:25:09,920 They're going to have very different calls. 313 00:25:09,920 --> 00:25:19,840 And specifically when it comes to the use of force to, you know, in this case to avenge 314 00:25:19,840 --> 00:25:27,320 or to punish wrong, you know, if you think about military service, that's typically the 315 00:25:27,320 --> 00:25:34,640 justification given for wars is that we're trying to kill the evil person who's harming 316 00:25:34,640 --> 00:25:35,640 people. 317 00:25:35,640 --> 00:25:41,360 Now we know from when the documents come out 50 years later, that's very rarely the case 318 00:25:41,360 --> 00:25:42,960 of why the wars were stopped. 319 00:25:42,960 --> 00:25:44,200 Never that black and white. 320 00:25:44,200 --> 00:25:45,200 Never that black and white. 321 00:25:45,200 --> 00:25:46,880 Both sides say those things. 322 00:25:46,880 --> 00:25:54,240 But the purported reasons given for wars and definitely the reasons why laws exist and 323 00:25:54,240 --> 00:26:01,720 why the justice system exists is to promote an air of order. 324 00:26:01,720 --> 00:26:05,000 And one of the ways it does that is to punish those who do wrong. 325 00:26:05,000 --> 00:26:10,400 But I struggle to see how a Christian could be involved in any of that if the ultimate 326 00:26:10,400 --> 00:26:15,640 authority of the Christian is God, and then Christians are called to love their enemies 327 00:26:15,640 --> 00:26:18,080 and to never avenge themselves. 328 00:26:18,080 --> 00:26:22,760 So curious like what you guys think about that. 329 00:26:22,760 --> 00:26:31,960 And so for me, the key is in the statement that you don't avenge yourself. 330 00:26:31,960 --> 00:26:38,680 And what was the other statement that you said you leave room for God's wrath or you 331 00:26:38,680 --> 00:26:40,160 don't that that. 332 00:26:40,160 --> 00:26:46,200 So someone who let's take the example of a police officer since Darryl was here with 333 00:26:46,200 --> 00:26:50,480 us last time or two times ago. 334 00:26:50,480 --> 00:26:56,440 That what a police officer is supposed to do is to protect and to serve. 335 00:26:56,440 --> 00:27:02,440 And it doesn't say that a police officer, they're the oath that they take. 336 00:27:02,440 --> 00:27:06,200 And I'm speaking of a very idealized here. 337 00:27:06,200 --> 00:27:11,560 We know that there's corruption in all levels of everything that human beings do. 338 00:27:11,560 --> 00:27:17,400 But that the ultimate the height of what a police officer is supposed to do is to protect 339 00:27:17,400 --> 00:27:19,560 and to serve. 340 00:27:19,560 --> 00:27:29,120 And their mandate to protect and to serve does not stop when someone becomes a lawbreaker 341 00:27:29,120 --> 00:27:33,560 or is a violent threat to a police officer. 342 00:27:33,560 --> 00:27:42,920 So in theory, a police officer, if someone is running at him with a knife, his commission 343 00:27:42,920 --> 00:27:48,320 is to protect and to serve even that person that is running at him with a knife. 344 00:27:48,320 --> 00:27:52,800 And so he needs to try to protect and to serve that person. 345 00:27:52,800 --> 00:27:58,640 And if it's just him and that person, then he should be willing to sacrifice himself. 346 00:27:58,640 --> 00:28:02,200 And so there's an ideal thing in there. 347 00:28:02,200 --> 00:28:10,000 And I think that just as we couldn't find an instance in the Bible where a Christian 348 00:28:10,000 --> 00:28:19,040 used violence against somebody that was coming at them with violence, that there we also. 349 00:28:19,040 --> 00:28:27,280 So we we we extend that example to people who are in the military or in the police force. 350 00:28:27,280 --> 00:28:35,280 They're not to use their power to avenge themselves, to protect themselves. 351 00:28:35,280 --> 00:28:39,000 They're there to serve an ultimate authority. 352 00:28:39,000 --> 00:28:45,880 Now for a policeman or a soldier, that ultimate authority might be the state or the federal 353 00:28:45,880 --> 00:28:51,400 government or the president or the United States of America, whatever country they're 354 00:28:51,400 --> 00:28:54,000 a part of. 355 00:28:54,000 --> 00:28:57,640 But they are not to do that just for themselves. 356 00:28:57,640 --> 00:29:04,960 We get into problems because of the fact that many of them do do it just for themselves 357 00:29:04,960 --> 00:29:06,880 or some of them do. 358 00:29:06,880 --> 00:29:14,280 Yeah, I think I hear a couple things in there, Tim. 359 00:29:14,280 --> 00:29:20,080 And I don't know exactly how to answer because it is such a tough question. 360 00:29:20,080 --> 00:29:30,880 And part of me thinks it falls into the matters of belief and not binding my my own opinion 361 00:29:30,880 --> 00:29:38,760 on someone else and letting their conscience decide if they are called to service in in 362 00:29:38,760 --> 00:29:44,920 government, in particular as a police officer, as someone who joins the military to serve 363 00:29:44,920 --> 00:29:45,920 a country. 364 00:29:45,920 --> 00:29:47,640 You're right. 365 00:29:47,640 --> 00:29:55,080 There is no we're in that in between place where there is nothing perfect here. 366 00:29:55,080 --> 00:30:00,040 It is nothing has been redeemed fully and actualized. 367 00:30:00,040 --> 00:30:03,600 Like it's not culminated yet in heaven. 368 00:30:03,600 --> 00:30:09,600 And so we're in this in between where we understand what it should be like, but we're still in 369 00:30:09,600 --> 00:30:16,440 facing sin and corruption and evil desires and all kinds of mess. 370 00:30:16,440 --> 00:30:20,320 And so there is no perfect, pure thing. 371 00:30:20,320 --> 00:30:28,080 And at the same time, I'm also reminded of, I think C.S. Lewis gave a lecture once to 372 00:30:28,080 --> 00:30:35,600 pacifists about why he is not one, which it's kind of funny. 373 00:30:35,600 --> 00:30:37,600 It is funny. 374 00:30:37,600 --> 00:30:42,040 But you know, he was basically saying that it was a practical necessity that you can't 375 00:30:42,040 --> 00:30:49,480 have a pacifist nation because then the domineering one will just wipe it out. 376 00:30:49,480 --> 00:30:55,160 And so that's not what turning the other cheek means in that kind of situation. 377 00:30:55,160 --> 00:31:00,240 You shouldn't just stand aside and let a homicidal maniac get their way. 378 00:31:00,240 --> 00:31:04,720 Another way of looking at that problem might be to consider the good Samaritan. 379 00:31:04,720 --> 00:31:10,480 And we probably wouldn't consider that good Samaritan very good if he happened, happened 380 00:31:10,480 --> 00:31:16,920 upon the person being robbed and did nothing to stop the robbery and assault. 381 00:31:16,920 --> 00:31:22,480 We probably think, why didn't you do anything to help him then? 382 00:31:22,480 --> 00:31:29,360 So I can't judge someone else's motivations, why they would want to serve or protect or 383 00:31:29,360 --> 00:31:34,080 those kinds of things might be in the DNA of who God has made as a person. 384 00:31:34,080 --> 00:31:36,800 No one person is the same as the other. 385 00:31:36,800 --> 00:31:40,480 My strengths are very different than my wife's strengths. 386 00:31:40,480 --> 00:31:46,400 And I'm so glad that we're together because I have a lot of weaknesses that she covers 387 00:31:46,400 --> 00:31:48,680 over. 388 00:31:48,680 --> 00:31:53,360 And I depend on her in ways and vice versa. 389 00:31:53,360 --> 00:31:57,640 And I think that everyone can serve some help. 390 00:31:57,640 --> 00:32:03,840 So in a society, it might look different. 391 00:32:03,840 --> 00:32:07,680 And I wouldn't want to say just because you're serving in the government, you can't be a 392 00:32:07,680 --> 00:32:09,440 Christian too. 393 00:32:09,440 --> 00:32:17,560 And I also think one more thing that I'll say is there is for me a very real nuance 394 00:32:17,560 --> 00:32:18,760 here. 395 00:32:18,760 --> 00:32:28,120 So there are, because of people become Christians in the stage that they're in. 396 00:32:28,120 --> 00:32:35,520 So if someone converts and becomes a Christian and they're already a police officer or a 397 00:32:35,520 --> 00:32:43,120 soldier, that's a slightly, there's a slightly different nuance to that than somebody who 398 00:32:43,120 --> 00:32:51,000 is already a Christian who is considering becoming a police officer or a soldier. 399 00:32:51,000 --> 00:32:58,360 If I were advising those two people and they were both in the exact same scenario, what 400 00:32:58,360 --> 00:32:59,800 should I do? 401 00:32:59,800 --> 00:33:02,480 I might advise the person who's not. 402 00:33:02,480 --> 00:33:05,040 Well, maybe you shouldn't be. 403 00:33:05,040 --> 00:33:07,560 Maybe you shouldn't join the police force. 404 00:33:07,560 --> 00:33:10,440 Maybe you shouldn't join the military. 405 00:33:10,440 --> 00:33:14,440 And because maybe it's going to spare you a decision that somebody, a Christian who 406 00:33:14,440 --> 00:33:23,320 is already in that situation might have to make that when the allegiances are challenged. 407 00:33:23,320 --> 00:33:25,680 Both of them are going to have to choose God. 408 00:33:25,680 --> 00:33:31,000 But if you're not there, if you're not in a compromising situation, it might be wiser 409 00:33:31,000 --> 00:33:36,080 not to put yourself in that compromising situation because of who your primary allegiance is 410 00:33:36,080 --> 00:33:37,080 to. 411 00:33:37,080 --> 00:33:38,080 Yeah. 412 00:33:38,080 --> 00:33:49,440 And I think there's so much here and I think we'll wind down this particular topic because 413 00:33:49,440 --> 00:33:51,200 we won't be able to unpack everything. 414 00:33:51,200 --> 00:34:00,600 But what I am grateful for is that we're wrestling with this concept of authority and we're wrestling 415 00:34:00,600 --> 00:34:06,840 with, okay, we all know that Jesus is our ultimate authority in my life as a Christian. 416 00:34:06,840 --> 00:34:15,280 How does that bear on these decisions about, in this case, what profession I might be in 417 00:34:15,280 --> 00:34:19,480 or the way I might exercise my authority in that profession? 418 00:34:19,480 --> 00:34:21,560 And I think I'm with you, Matt. 419 00:34:21,560 --> 00:34:27,960 I'm not in a place right now where I'm going to, I would make a categorical statement about 420 00:34:27,960 --> 00:34:34,880 someone being involved in any sort of military or government service. 421 00:34:34,880 --> 00:34:43,480 I'm very confident that I would advise no one to be in the military. 422 00:34:43,480 --> 00:34:47,520 And that's the conviction that I live by. 423 00:34:47,520 --> 00:34:57,440 But what I am rock solid on for myself is that if someone does go into those situations, 424 00:34:57,440 --> 00:35:04,680 there are going to be times when that other authority in their life is going to demand 425 00:35:04,680 --> 00:35:07,320 something that they cannot give as a Christian. 426 00:35:07,320 --> 00:35:11,480 And there's going to need to be a stand they're going to have to make. 427 00:35:11,480 --> 00:35:14,760 And it can be a great opportunity to share your faith. 428 00:35:14,760 --> 00:35:18,840 And it could be a great opportunity to share your faith. 429 00:35:18,840 --> 00:35:27,080 So I think with that, I wanted to end this many episode series on retaliation and enemy 430 00:35:27,080 --> 00:35:32,240 love with a quote that I find very helpful. 431 00:35:32,240 --> 00:35:37,280 Mother Teresa said once that if you spend one hour a day in adoration of your Lord and 432 00:35:37,280 --> 00:35:41,560 never do anything that you know is wrong, you'll be fine. 433 00:35:41,560 --> 00:35:46,520 And I can sometimes get so wrapped up in disagreement or about the edge cases where I'm not sure 434 00:35:46,520 --> 00:35:53,360 of things that I forget that the God's word is extraordinarily clear, the vast majority 435 00:35:53,360 --> 00:35:55,320 of the time in my life. 436 00:35:55,320 --> 00:36:02,280 And if I just walked in what I knew to be true, then you know, probably going to be fine. 437 00:36:02,280 --> 00:36:09,720 You know, and that's, I think that's where really God does call us the most is, you know, 438 00:36:09,720 --> 00:36:15,760 walk with me, be faithful to me and how can we be faithful unless we do those things that 439 00:36:15,760 --> 00:36:19,560 we know are confident and what we know is right or wrong. 440 00:36:19,560 --> 00:36:26,960 So with that in mind, I guess just let's keep it short for right now. 441 00:36:26,960 --> 00:36:30,440 But you know, what have what what have felt like some rock solid truths for you guys that 442 00:36:30,440 --> 00:36:35,400 have come out from these conversations, specifically about retaliation and enemy love that you just 443 00:36:35,400 --> 00:36:41,000 would like to to make sure are voiced here before we close. 444 00:36:41,000 --> 00:36:48,480 I think for me, what this causes me to see is, well, this is really hard and that I need 445 00:36:48,480 --> 00:36:49,480 Jesus. 446 00:36:49,480 --> 00:36:51,640 I really, really need Jesus. 447 00:36:51,640 --> 00:36:58,240 He's the one that I need because all of this retaliation, self-preservation, whatever you 448 00:36:58,240 --> 00:37:03,200 want to looking out for number one or wherever you want to call it, getting even, it feels 449 00:37:03,200 --> 00:37:13,960 so baked into my DNA, like in my sinful nature, wages war against me for my soul. 450 00:37:13,960 --> 00:37:22,640 And I think that looking to Jesus and his suffering for me, a complete center is the 451 00:37:22,640 --> 00:37:23,640 first thing. 452 00:37:23,640 --> 00:37:30,160 And the second thing, I guess is related to the first is that we humans want to get even 453 00:37:30,160 --> 00:37:34,920 and take matters into our own hands and put ourselves in a place of judge. 454 00:37:34,920 --> 00:37:38,000 And we see later in chapter seven how messed up that is. 455 00:37:38,000 --> 00:37:41,160 That's not what we should be doing and that we should be instead in trusting ourselves 456 00:37:41,160 --> 00:37:44,600 again to him who judges justly. 457 00:37:44,600 --> 00:37:46,920 And the question isn't who is my neighbor? 458 00:37:46,920 --> 00:37:51,080 The question is how am I treating my neighbor? 459 00:37:51,080 --> 00:37:52,080 Everyone's my neighbor. 460 00:37:52,080 --> 00:37:54,240 I should love everyone. 461 00:37:54,240 --> 00:37:58,520 So I think those are some of the things I'm getting out of this. 462 00:37:58,520 --> 00:37:59,520 Yeah. 463 00:37:59,520 --> 00:38:06,000 I think, is it Romans 8 that says, if God is for us, who can be against us? 464 00:38:06,000 --> 00:38:11,600 And you know, I've looked at that passage and said, well, nobody, nobody can oppose 465 00:38:11,600 --> 00:38:13,600 me. 466 00:38:13,600 --> 00:38:19,960 But I also think it probably means no one really does oppose me if God is with me. 467 00:38:19,960 --> 00:38:28,440 And that a lot of what we're dealing with here when we talk about enemy love is anger 468 00:38:28,440 --> 00:38:30,720 and retribution. 469 00:38:30,720 --> 00:38:38,600 And that there really is no place for that in somebody who's going to be a Christian. 470 00:38:38,600 --> 00:38:42,040 There's no place for it. 471 00:38:42,040 --> 00:38:50,160 And that my relationship with God is based upon the state of my heart. 472 00:38:50,160 --> 00:38:56,160 And that like, like this whole series of the antithesis has to show us is that's what's 473 00:38:56,160 --> 00:38:59,240 most important is my heart. 474 00:38:59,240 --> 00:39:06,680 And that as far as my heart goes, I'm to love my enemy. 475 00:39:06,680 --> 00:39:14,280 And the challenge of that statement is as large, looms as large for me now at the end 476 00:39:14,280 --> 00:39:18,640 of this conversation as it did at the beginning of the conversation. 477 00:39:18,640 --> 00:39:23,840 And just like when Jesus said, love your neighbor and the person replied and said, well, who 478 00:39:23,840 --> 00:39:26,000 is my neighbor? 479 00:39:26,000 --> 00:39:30,040 And love your enemy as well, who is my enemy? 480 00:39:30,040 --> 00:39:33,920 And so I need to love that person. 481 00:39:33,920 --> 00:39:37,720 And that that's where it all it all lands for me. 482 00:39:37,720 --> 00:39:42,040 And that's where that's where it evens out for my soul. 483 00:39:42,040 --> 00:39:47,240 I really appreciate what he said with that mother Teresa quote to is because we can't 484 00:39:47,240 --> 00:39:49,680 we should not. 485 00:39:49,680 --> 00:39:51,720 We should not major in minors. 486 00:39:51,720 --> 00:39:59,600 And, you know, we should major in the majors, love God and love people. 487 00:39:59,600 --> 00:40:00,600 Yeah. 488 00:40:00,600 --> 00:40:01,920 Yeah, I love that. 489 00:40:01,920 --> 00:40:07,120 And I think for me, you talked about anger and how that's not supposed to rule our hearts 490 00:40:07,120 --> 00:40:13,960 and the other primal emotion that can so often rule my heart is fear and fear of, you know, 491 00:40:13,960 --> 00:40:15,960 that I'm going to be okay. 492 00:40:15,960 --> 00:40:23,400 And I think what came out so clearly in these episodes for me is that Jesus promises me that 493 00:40:23,400 --> 00:40:28,680 he's going to take care of me and that I don't need to be afraid in all the situations where 494 00:40:28,680 --> 00:40:32,440 it'd be very natural for me to be afraid if I'm considering only this life. 495 00:40:32,440 --> 00:40:35,280 You know, I have a home in heaven. 496 00:40:35,280 --> 00:40:37,360 I have a hope of the resurrection. 497 00:40:37,360 --> 00:40:43,720 I have a leader who did it all here and is showing me the way there. 498 00:40:43,720 --> 00:40:48,960 And so I don't need to be controlled by fear or like it says in Hebrews, like, you know, 499 00:40:48,960 --> 00:40:54,400 Jesus released those who all their lives have been held in slavery by the fear of death. 500 00:40:54,400 --> 00:40:56,800 So that's what's come out for me. 501 00:40:56,800 --> 00:41:01,600 I've really appreciated these talks and felt like me too. 502 00:41:01,600 --> 00:41:11,560 This is just even for us as a group has been some of the most life giving conversations 503 00:41:11,560 --> 00:41:15,840 that we've had to be able to lean into what we've been talking about, about wrestling 504 00:41:15,840 --> 00:41:19,240 and the word in community together. 505 00:41:19,240 --> 00:41:20,240 So thanks guys. 506 00:41:20,240 --> 00:41:21,240 Absolutely. 507 00:41:21,240 --> 00:41:22,240 We'll catch you next time. 508 00:41:22,240 --> 00:41:23,240 Cool. 509 00:41:23,240 --> 00:41:24,240 Thanks guys. 510 00:41:24,240 --> 00:41:41,960 I'll see you next time.