1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:08,840 Hey, I'm Matt Brownell. 2 00:00:08,840 --> 00:00:10,480 And I'm Van Owens. 3 00:00:10,480 --> 00:00:12,160 And I'm Tim Adams. 4 00:00:12,160 --> 00:00:18,120 Welcome to Climbing the Mountain, where we dive into the scriptures and discuss themes, 5 00:00:18,120 --> 00:00:21,280 connections, and real life application. 6 00:00:21,280 --> 00:00:24,960 We're kicking off a series here where we're going to examine the Sermon on the Mount and 7 00:00:24,960 --> 00:00:34,680 discuss implications for this teaching for Christians today. 8 00:00:34,680 --> 00:00:39,040 First off, I want to say that I'm extremely grateful for the opportunity to come back 9 00:00:39,040 --> 00:00:44,480 together again to discuss enemy love and retaliation. 10 00:00:44,480 --> 00:00:48,400 I've got to say that the last episode was a challenging one for me because it didn't 11 00:00:48,400 --> 00:00:54,840 feel like I had the ability to speak up and share my thoughts on this topic. 12 00:00:54,840 --> 00:01:00,560 And in many of the situations that I've been in or witnessed, that's basically where this 13 00:01:00,560 --> 00:01:02,240 would end. 14 00:01:02,240 --> 00:01:08,160 Someone feels shut down or unable to contribute to the discussion, feelings get hurt, relationships 15 00:01:08,160 --> 00:01:11,600 are stressed, and then everyone goes home. 16 00:01:11,600 --> 00:01:13,960 And basically just stays that way and just unaddressed. 17 00:01:13,960 --> 00:01:18,000 It's an open wound that just kind of festers over time. 18 00:01:18,000 --> 00:01:22,000 But I'm really grateful that's not what we're doing here. 19 00:01:22,000 --> 00:01:26,080 We're trying to cultivate space and we're trying to cultivate relationships between 20 00:01:26,080 --> 00:01:33,240 each of us that allow for hard conversations to happen with love, respect, and humility. 21 00:01:33,240 --> 00:01:39,800 I know this is not easy and it's taken us many months of deep conversation to get to 22 00:01:39,800 --> 00:01:41,520 this point. 23 00:01:41,520 --> 00:01:47,600 But I know by the fact that we're back in this room, that we're united in this mission 24 00:01:47,600 --> 00:01:50,800 and I'm grateful to God to be in this space. 25 00:01:50,800 --> 00:01:57,920 I believe what we're doing here, having these types of conversations is a foundational skill 26 00:01:57,920 --> 00:02:02,520 that we all need to thrive in our lives, relationships, and churches. 27 00:02:02,520 --> 00:02:07,920 And so I hope that this conversation today can be an inspiration to others. 28 00:02:07,920 --> 00:02:11,440 These conversations are possible and are worth striving for. 29 00:02:11,440 --> 00:02:18,320 Yeah, Tim, I agree with what you're saying and I'm also so happy that we're coming back 30 00:02:18,320 --> 00:02:25,120 together to do this because there is what usually happens is like you said, people shut 31 00:02:25,120 --> 00:02:32,040 down, they have hurt feelings or they're angry and that rift just grows. 32 00:02:32,040 --> 00:02:36,840 The other thing that can happen and this is a thing that happens very often in pop culture 33 00:02:36,840 --> 00:02:39,600 is that it gets nasty. 34 00:02:39,600 --> 00:02:40,960 It gets bitter. 35 00:02:40,960 --> 00:02:42,600 People get angry. 36 00:02:42,600 --> 00:02:49,160 Or there's just a decision that's made that, okay, we will agree to disagree. 37 00:02:49,160 --> 00:02:53,160 And that is a thing, I think, but most of the time, I think when people say agree to 38 00:02:53,160 --> 00:02:57,560 disagree, what they mean is, I'm not going to listen to you anymore. 39 00:02:57,560 --> 00:02:59,640 You're not going to listen to me anymore. 40 00:02:59,640 --> 00:03:05,160 We are not on the same track, so let's just stay separate. 41 00:03:05,160 --> 00:03:13,440 And that kind of thing separates relationships and marriages and churches and all kinds of 42 00:03:13,440 --> 00:03:16,600 organizations and it does it every day all the time. 43 00:03:16,600 --> 00:03:20,280 So I'm so grateful for the fact that we get to do this. 44 00:03:20,280 --> 00:03:25,360 I'm actually very grateful for the fact that we don't agree on everything, that it's not 45 00:03:25,360 --> 00:03:28,840 a sounding board for each other's agreement. 46 00:03:28,840 --> 00:03:30,480 Yeah, me too. 47 00:03:30,480 --> 00:03:33,480 That's in some ways the only ways that people talk these days. 48 00:03:33,480 --> 00:03:35,520 It was with people that they agree with. 49 00:03:35,520 --> 00:03:36,520 Yeah, yeah. 50 00:03:36,520 --> 00:03:37,520 No, I couldn't agree more. 51 00:03:37,520 --> 00:03:41,520 I'm so grateful for this space that we're in. 52 00:03:41,520 --> 00:03:44,000 And yeah, there's no writing each other off here. 53 00:03:44,000 --> 00:03:54,360 There's no like judging and thinking, okay, well, wash my hands of this and see you later. 54 00:03:54,360 --> 00:03:55,360 Not at all. 55 00:03:55,360 --> 00:04:00,680 So I'm really grateful that we get to be in this space and come back to this. 56 00:04:00,680 --> 00:04:01,680 Amen. 57 00:04:01,680 --> 00:04:07,840 So what we do want to acknowledge, Darryl was going to join us and couldn't make it due 58 00:04:07,840 --> 00:04:10,680 to a conflict that came up last minute. 59 00:04:10,680 --> 00:04:16,080 So we're having this conversation on script with the three of us, but there's many other 60 00:04:16,080 --> 00:04:17,800 conversations that happen off script. 61 00:04:17,800 --> 00:04:24,280 I'm just happy to be here to have this with the three of us. 62 00:04:24,280 --> 00:04:28,240 So with that said, let's dive in. 63 00:04:28,240 --> 00:04:33,000 And one of you guys read Matthew 5:38-48 to kind of set the context and 64 00:04:33,000 --> 00:04:35,160 then I've got a few questions I'd like to discuss. 65 00:04:35,160 --> 00:04:37,320 I would be happy to. 66 00:04:37,320 --> 00:04:41,120 Matthew five starting in verse 38. 67 00:04:41,120 --> 00:04:49,000 Jesus says, you have heard that it was said, I fry and tooth for tooth, but I tell you, 68 00:04:49,000 --> 00:04:51,400 do not resist an evil person. 69 00:04:51,400 --> 00:04:56,920 If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also. 70 00:04:56,920 --> 00:05:03,040 And if anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, hand over your code as well. 71 00:05:03,040 --> 00:05:08,000 If anyone forces you to go one mile, go with them two miles. 72 00:05:08,000 --> 00:05:13,960 Give to the one who asks you and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from 73 00:05:13,960 --> 00:05:15,640 you. 74 00:05:15,640 --> 00:05:21,720 You have heard that it was said, love your neighbor and hate your enemy, but I tell you, 75 00:05:21,720 --> 00:05:28,480 love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be children of your father 76 00:05:28,480 --> 00:05:30,200 in heaven. 77 00:05:30,200 --> 00:05:37,160 He causes the sun to rise on the evil and the good and sends rain on the righteous and 78 00:05:37,160 --> 00:05:39,000 the unrighteous. 79 00:05:39,000 --> 00:05:43,160 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? 80 00:05:43,160 --> 00:05:46,400 Aren't that even tax collectors doing that? 81 00:05:46,400 --> 00:05:51,920 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? 82 00:05:51,920 --> 00:05:54,280 Do not even pagans do that? 83 00:05:54,280 --> 00:06:00,480 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly father is perfect. 84 00:06:00,480 --> 00:06:07,280 So after we had our past conversations about this, I went back and I listened to what we 85 00:06:07,280 --> 00:06:08,760 were talking about. 86 00:06:08,760 --> 00:06:11,760 And that was really helpful for me. 87 00:06:11,760 --> 00:06:17,760 And to see how much we discussed that I just think is so true. 88 00:06:17,760 --> 00:06:25,920 And I will spend time at the end of this conversation meditating on those areas. 89 00:06:25,920 --> 00:06:33,840 But there's a couple of key ideas that I feel like we need to discuss in a little bit more 90 00:06:33,840 --> 00:06:35,160 depth. 91 00:06:35,160 --> 00:06:40,680 And so let's start with the question of assault. 92 00:06:40,680 --> 00:06:45,440 So in one of our previous conversations, we talked about the proverbial example of a 93 00:06:45,440 --> 00:06:48,000 thief breaking into your house. 94 00:06:48,000 --> 00:06:55,280 And Matt, you brought up Exodus 22:2-3, which I think is a really important 95 00:06:55,280 --> 00:06:57,120 thing to bring into this conversation. 96 00:06:57,120 --> 00:07:02,360 It says, if a thief is caught breaking in at night and is struck a fatal blow, the defender 97 00:07:02,360 --> 00:07:04,360 is not guilty of bloodshed. 98 00:07:04,360 --> 00:07:09,280 But if it happens after sunrise, the defender is guilty of bloodshed. 99 00:07:09,280 --> 00:07:17,920 So based on that scripture and much, you know, lots that you guys talked about in those conversations, 100 00:07:17,920 --> 00:07:24,160 the consensus I heard from the group seemed to be that Jesus' teachings on retaliation 101 00:07:24,160 --> 00:07:28,960 and enemy love address insult, but not assault. 102 00:07:28,960 --> 00:07:36,080 So put another way, these teachings relate to the like 95% of the time situations where 103 00:07:36,080 --> 00:07:43,360 we're just slighted or taken advantage of by others, maybe in an economic way, but that 104 00:07:43,360 --> 00:07:46,960 these don't, these teachings don't necessarily relate to situations where we're physically 105 00:07:46,960 --> 00:07:48,080 in danger. 106 00:07:48,080 --> 00:07:53,120 So that was my understanding of what you guys said and kind of where you came to. 107 00:07:53,120 --> 00:07:59,120 And so the first question that I have is just like, did I summarize that right? 108 00:07:59,120 --> 00:08:03,080 Did I understand you correctly? 109 00:08:03,080 --> 00:08:09,760 And after that, I really am curious, like in what ways, if any, do Jesus' teachings 110 00:08:09,760 --> 00:08:14,800 and the teachings of the apostles relate to situations when we are physically in danger? 111 00:08:14,800 --> 00:08:15,800 Yeah. 112 00:08:15,800 --> 00:08:21,200 I'm glad you, thank you for that question. 113 00:08:21,200 --> 00:08:24,040 The first I think I'll take that in chunks. 114 00:08:24,040 --> 00:08:31,440 And the first part, I'd say, yeah, generally, I think that's a fair summary, particularly 115 00:08:31,440 --> 00:08:35,400 when you're looking at the retaliation section. 116 00:08:35,400 --> 00:08:41,640 I think it is more insult than assault. 117 00:08:41,640 --> 00:08:45,560 And I'm glad you brought up the Exodus 22 passage and read it because I didn't spend 118 00:08:45,560 --> 00:08:46,560 much time with it. 119 00:08:46,560 --> 00:08:51,640 I just referenced it quickly and kept moving, but there's a lot more nuance to it. 120 00:08:51,640 --> 00:08:56,360 And the point I brought out last time is that the law assumes we'll protect ourselves. 121 00:08:56,360 --> 00:08:57,760 I think that's still true. 122 00:08:57,760 --> 00:09:03,800 The value of human life that we hear in thou shalt not kill or in Genesis when it says 123 00:09:03,800 --> 00:09:04,800 we're made in God's image. 124 00:09:04,800 --> 00:09:07,680 I think that applies to everyone. 125 00:09:07,680 --> 00:09:13,400 We should value our lives and the lives of our loved ones as we do others' lives. 126 00:09:13,400 --> 00:09:19,360 So if someone's threatening our life or the life of one of our loved ones, we can do something 127 00:09:19,360 --> 00:09:20,460 about it. 128 00:09:20,460 --> 00:09:23,400 If we can, we should do something. 129 00:09:23,400 --> 00:09:25,600 But here's where the nuance comes in. 130 00:09:25,600 --> 00:09:30,320 If we kill the intruder at night, it's not considered murder, but it's different during 131 00:09:30,320 --> 00:09:31,600 the day. 132 00:09:31,600 --> 00:09:33,520 Why is that? 133 00:09:33,520 --> 00:09:38,440 I think there's an assumption behind these verses that we should only do what is necessary 134 00:09:38,440 --> 00:09:42,200 to protect and either repel or subdue the intruder. 135 00:09:42,200 --> 00:09:44,080 During the day, we can call for help. 136 00:09:44,080 --> 00:09:47,920 There's a lot more people awake who could hear our cries for help. 137 00:09:47,920 --> 00:09:51,520 During the day, we can see what's going on and when we defend ourselves. 138 00:09:51,520 --> 00:09:56,240 So if we kill the intruder during the day, it's a lot different than if we do it at night 139 00:09:56,240 --> 00:10:02,120 and we could unintentionally kill them or in the dark by accident or be caught in a situation 140 00:10:02,120 --> 00:10:06,120 where there's either their life or our life because no one hears our cries, no one's come 141 00:10:06,120 --> 00:10:07,120 to help. 142 00:10:07,120 --> 00:10:09,960 And oops, you know, so I don't know. 143 00:10:09,960 --> 00:10:12,080 There's a lot more nuance there. 144 00:10:12,080 --> 00:10:18,880 But the larger teaching I still think that you can draw behind it, the heart behind it, 145 00:10:18,880 --> 00:10:23,640 is true about protecting. 146 00:10:23,640 --> 00:10:28,800 But so I think that it is a different situation that Jesus is talking about in the retaliation 147 00:10:28,800 --> 00:10:31,080 section. 148 00:10:31,080 --> 00:10:39,360 I think the backhanded slap is very much about insult and the mishna, I think that was something 149 00:10:39,360 --> 00:10:43,640 that I made reference to. 150 00:10:43,640 --> 00:10:49,600 It's the recorded oral tradition of the Pharisees during the Second Temple period, which is 151 00:10:49,600 --> 00:10:53,200 that's the same time that intersects with Jesus. 152 00:10:53,200 --> 00:11:00,160 And it details how much someone could sue for such an insult twice as much as the front-handed 153 00:11:00,160 --> 00:11:01,160 slap. 154 00:11:01,160 --> 00:11:02,160 And I think so. 155 00:11:02,160 --> 00:11:07,640 And I think the point we were making there was in an honor society, that would be a huge 156 00:11:07,640 --> 00:11:08,640 deal. 157 00:11:08,640 --> 00:11:12,280 And so, you know, you could look at this and say, if someone slaps you, what's a big, you 158 00:11:12,280 --> 00:11:15,440 know, don't be such a baby. 159 00:11:15,440 --> 00:11:19,080 But in that culture, that would have been a significant thing. 160 00:11:19,080 --> 00:11:24,600 And so this would have been a teaching that he is addressing here. 161 00:11:24,600 --> 00:11:31,320 But I think there's also, when you get to the hate your enemies piece of it, the next 162 00:11:31,320 --> 00:11:37,600 part, I think that's also, there's some context there, too, that would be helpful to bring 163 00:11:37,600 --> 00:11:46,880 out about how, you know, groups of people othered each other and hated each other. 164 00:11:46,880 --> 00:11:52,640 And I think there's a semantic context that we have been running into a little bit here, 165 00:11:52,640 --> 00:11:59,040 that we talked about a little bit in passing about the anger stuff that we really didn't 166 00:11:59,040 --> 00:12:00,600 cover when we were looking at it. 167 00:12:00,600 --> 00:12:06,480 But the term Raca had this connotation of you're basically saying someone's outside 168 00:12:06,480 --> 00:12:10,480 the people of God, they're essentially lost. 169 00:12:10,480 --> 00:12:16,240 There's another thing in the Dead Sea Scrolls about hate your enemies, which is something 170 00:12:16,240 --> 00:12:22,280 that Jesus is a thread that Jesus is pulling on in these verses here in the community rule 171 00:12:22,280 --> 00:12:25,840 or the manual discipline, which is one of the first scrolls that was discovered. 172 00:12:25,840 --> 00:12:32,200 It says, love everyone whom God has elected and hate everyone whom he has rejected. 173 00:12:32,200 --> 00:12:37,160 Jesus is calling out this teaching as contrary to God's will. 174 00:12:37,160 --> 00:12:42,880 Instead, he says that we should love each other, especially if you're insulted in some 175 00:12:42,880 --> 00:12:49,520 extreme way, like the backhanded slap or being called Raca or something. 176 00:12:49,520 --> 00:13:04,760 But so that's my long-winded summary of yes, I think that's a fair summary that you mentioned 177 00:13:04,760 --> 00:13:05,760 Tim. 178 00:13:05,760 --> 00:13:11,960 And I think the second question I think is a lot more about physical danger. 179 00:13:11,960 --> 00:13:15,120 I think it's situational, but I'd like to hear what other people think. 180 00:13:15,120 --> 00:13:18,640 Yeah, I'm curious, Van, like how I want to make sure that I'm summarizing you guys correctly 181 00:13:18,640 --> 00:13:19,640 here. 182 00:13:19,640 --> 00:13:21,000 So does that have anything to do with you thinking? 183 00:13:21,000 --> 00:13:26,960 So I felt like the summary was in line with that discussion. 184 00:13:26,960 --> 00:13:32,280 And I'll tell you guys, this is so hard to think about. 185 00:13:32,280 --> 00:13:35,040 It's so hard to conceptualize. 186 00:13:35,040 --> 00:13:40,240 And as I was thinking about it, preparing for this discussion, I started to really struggle 187 00:13:40,240 --> 00:13:45,120 with the whole concept of a hypothetical situation. 188 00:13:45,120 --> 00:13:51,440 I had been studying in my personal devotional time, I was studying the book of Genesis and 189 00:13:51,440 --> 00:13:56,920 reading about the temptation, the fall of man, the temptation in the garden. 190 00:13:56,920 --> 00:14:01,640 And the serpent comes to Eve and says, did God really say to you, you can't eat from 191 00:14:01,640 --> 00:14:04,000 any of the trees in the garden? 192 00:14:04,000 --> 00:14:10,720 And I thought, what he's introducing there is something, first of all, that didn't really 193 00:14:10,720 --> 00:14:12,640 happen. 194 00:14:12,640 --> 00:14:17,240 And it's almost a kind of a hypothetical situation. 195 00:14:17,240 --> 00:14:19,880 He's saying, did God really say that? 196 00:14:19,880 --> 00:14:25,600 And Eve replies and says, no, God didn't really say that. 197 00:14:25,600 --> 00:14:30,760 She goes on to say, God said, we could eat from any tree in the garden, except that tree 198 00:14:30,760 --> 00:14:37,360 in the middle, because if we eat it, or even if we just touch it, we will die. 199 00:14:37,360 --> 00:14:43,000 And so somehow that hypothetical setup of the situation had created in her, God did 200 00:14:43,000 --> 00:14:45,000 say, don't eat from it. 201 00:14:45,000 --> 00:14:47,960 But he did not say, don't touch it. 202 00:14:47,960 --> 00:14:51,080 And somehow she added to it. 203 00:14:51,080 --> 00:14:55,840 And I wonder if the hypothetical situation made her add to it. 204 00:14:55,840 --> 00:15:00,600 And so I was thinking through the value of hypothetical situations. 205 00:15:00,600 --> 00:15:04,320 It brought me to a scripture in Luke chapter 22. 206 00:15:04,320 --> 00:15:06,600 This is when Jesus is about to be betrayed. 207 00:15:06,600 --> 00:15:11,200 He's about to go through the passion. 208 00:15:11,200 --> 00:15:13,120 And I'm going to read it if you guys don't mind. 209 00:15:13,120 --> 00:15:18,800 I'm going to pick it up in verse 35 of Luke chapter 22. 210 00:15:18,800 --> 00:15:24,360 It says, then Jesus asked them, he's with his disciples, when I sent you without purse, 211 00:15:24,360 --> 00:15:28,520 bag or sandals, did you lack anything? 212 00:15:28,520 --> 00:15:29,920 Nothing they answered. 213 00:15:29,920 --> 00:15:34,040 He said to them, but now if you have a purse, take it. 214 00:15:34,040 --> 00:15:35,560 And also a bag. 215 00:15:35,560 --> 00:15:39,560 If you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. 216 00:15:39,560 --> 00:15:43,560 It is written and he was numbered with the transgressors. 217 00:15:43,560 --> 00:15:46,000 And I tell you that this must be fulfilled. 218 00:15:46,000 --> 00:15:51,520 Yes, what is written about me is reaching its fulfillment. 219 00:15:51,520 --> 00:15:56,040 The disciples said, see Lord, here are two swords. 220 00:15:56,040 --> 00:15:57,040 That's enough. 221 00:15:57,040 --> 00:15:58,880 Jesus replied. 222 00:15:58,880 --> 00:16:06,440 And so I have always read that passage my whole life up until three days ago. 223 00:16:06,440 --> 00:16:12,480 I've always read that last statement where Jesus says that's enough as, okay, two swords 224 00:16:12,480 --> 00:16:14,080 is enough. 225 00:16:14,080 --> 00:16:15,880 Two swords is plenty. 226 00:16:15,880 --> 00:16:19,040 We don't need more than two swords. 227 00:16:19,040 --> 00:16:24,280 And so when I started to do a little research and I looked at commentaries and I looked 228 00:16:24,280 --> 00:16:26,600 at several commentaries. 229 00:16:26,600 --> 00:16:33,720 Every single commentary I looked at agreed that Jesus wasn't saying that's enough swords. 230 00:16:33,720 --> 00:16:38,800 What he was saying is that's enough of this conversation. 231 00:16:38,800 --> 00:16:41,800 Basically he was saying this conversation is over. 232 00:16:41,800 --> 00:16:46,080 And a lot of the commentators thought that what he was saying was you guys are not getting 233 00:16:46,080 --> 00:16:47,840 what I'm saying. 234 00:16:47,840 --> 00:16:56,040 That they were taking literally what he was saying as yes, we need at least two swords. 235 00:16:56,040 --> 00:16:58,840 But what he was really doing was he was talking figuratively. 236 00:16:58,840 --> 00:17:05,320 What he was saying was the time is coming when the kind of protection that you enjoyed 237 00:17:05,320 --> 00:17:08,800 the last time you went out will not be available to you. 238 00:17:08,800 --> 00:17:10,760 In other words, there'll be persecution. 239 00:17:10,760 --> 00:17:12,760 In other words, it's going to be hard. 240 00:17:12,760 --> 00:17:19,820 In other words, you're going to have to prepare for the hardship to come. 241 00:17:19,820 --> 00:17:23,800 And so that made me rethink the whole, okay. 242 00:17:23,800 --> 00:17:31,560 So because I always sort of use that passage as an excuse or as a way to get out of the, 243 00:17:31,560 --> 00:17:36,000 the, okay, is it okay to defend yourself? 244 00:17:36,000 --> 00:17:41,080 Obviously Jesus is saying it's okay to defend yourself because why would they have two swords? 245 00:17:41,080 --> 00:17:43,160 But what Jesus was saying, no, you don't get it. 246 00:17:43,160 --> 00:17:47,440 It's not, it's not, I'm not talking about that. 247 00:17:47,440 --> 00:17:56,640 And it goes on later in Luke 22 in verse 47, it says, while he was speaking, a crowd came 248 00:17:56,640 --> 00:18:01,280 up and the man who was called Judas, one of the 12 was leading them. 249 00:18:01,280 --> 00:18:03,840 He approached Jesus to kiss him. 250 00:18:03,840 --> 00:18:08,240 But Jesus asked him, Judas, are you betraying the Son of Man with a kiss? 251 00:18:08,240 --> 00:18:14,680 When Jesus followers, this is the passage that really is, is fascinating to me. 252 00:18:14,680 --> 00:18:21,040 When Jesus followers saw what was going to happen, they said, Lord, should we strike 253 00:18:21,040 --> 00:18:22,800 with our swords? 254 00:18:22,800 --> 00:18:25,680 So nothing hypothetical is going on here. 255 00:18:25,680 --> 00:18:27,200 This is for real. 256 00:18:27,200 --> 00:18:28,200 They're coming. 257 00:18:28,200 --> 00:18:30,040 They've got clubs. 258 00:18:30,040 --> 00:18:32,320 They mean harm. 259 00:18:32,320 --> 00:18:34,200 There's going to be violence. 260 00:18:34,200 --> 00:18:38,680 Lord should we strike with our swords and one of them, and one of them struck the servant 261 00:18:38,680 --> 00:18:45,680 of the high priest, cutting off his ear, but Jesus answered no more of this and touched 262 00:18:45,680 --> 00:18:48,520 the man's ear and healed him. 263 00:18:48,520 --> 00:18:57,960 And so as I was thinking about the discussion that we had, thinking about the scriptures, 264 00:18:57,960 --> 00:19:04,240 thinking about the passages, I thought, and I think there is room for nuance, but I think 265 00:19:04,240 --> 00:19:09,600 that nuance is something that has to happen in the moment. 266 00:19:09,600 --> 00:19:15,640 It has to happen that we get in trouble when we talk about all these hypothetical situations. 267 00:19:15,640 --> 00:19:17,680 And I'm not, I mean, I'm not criticizing what we did. 268 00:19:17,680 --> 00:19:25,080 I think that we, our intent was good, but I think hypothetical situations can make us, 269 00:19:25,080 --> 00:19:34,040 can make us go like Eve did to an extreme that may not be true, that may not be right. 270 00:19:34,040 --> 00:19:39,680 And I think that what Jesus is saying to them is that, look, I'm not talking about physical 271 00:19:39,680 --> 00:19:40,680 violence here. 272 00:19:40,680 --> 00:19:44,480 I'm not talking about, I'm not talking about a specific scenario. 273 00:19:44,480 --> 00:19:49,160 I'm talking about what the state of your heart needs to be, what the state of your soul needs 274 00:19:49,160 --> 00:19:50,160 to be. 275 00:19:50,160 --> 00:19:55,920 And I'm saying, last time I told you, go out, don't worry about anything. 276 00:19:55,920 --> 00:19:56,920 I've got it. 277 00:19:56,920 --> 00:19:58,000 I'll take care of it. 278 00:19:58,000 --> 00:19:59,360 You'll be fine. 279 00:19:59,360 --> 00:20:03,120 Now I'm telling you, go out, but be prepared. 280 00:20:03,120 --> 00:20:07,240 Be prepared for situations that come up. 281 00:20:07,240 --> 00:20:14,360 And clearly Jesus is not advocating the use, this passage tells me he's not advocating 282 00:20:14,360 --> 00:20:19,800 that we necessarily, that we violently protect ourselves. 283 00:20:19,800 --> 00:20:24,640 And is he saying, well, those guys don't have swords, so we shouldn't have swords. 284 00:20:24,640 --> 00:20:26,040 So I don't know. 285 00:20:26,040 --> 00:20:27,160 I don't think so. 286 00:20:27,160 --> 00:20:36,360 I think what he's saying is enough of all this conjecture, enough about this conversation 287 00:20:36,360 --> 00:20:39,720 because you're not understanding it. 288 00:20:39,720 --> 00:20:42,920 I don't think that he's saying that we shouldn't have the conversation. 289 00:20:42,920 --> 00:20:48,480 I think what he was saying then is that it's not time you guys aren't there yet. 290 00:20:48,480 --> 00:20:55,840 And what the conclusion that I came to from that is the way we deal with this is the way 291 00:20:55,840 --> 00:20:57,440 that we're doing it right now. 292 00:20:57,440 --> 00:21:00,000 You have to do it in conversation. 293 00:21:00,000 --> 00:21:02,600 You have to do it in openness with your brothers. 294 00:21:02,600 --> 00:21:06,420 You have to do it presenting what's real. 295 00:21:06,420 --> 00:21:14,680 You have to do it presenting what is pertinent to you in the situation now because the further 296 00:21:14,680 --> 00:21:25,080 we get into hypothetical, the more likely we are to get into trouble and disagreement. 297 00:21:25,080 --> 00:21:29,520 And if we're going to disagree, I think it's better to disagree about something that's 298 00:21:29,520 --> 00:21:39,960 real and present that we can see, that we can grasp than to disagree about a hypothetical 299 00:21:39,960 --> 00:21:40,960 situation. 300 00:21:40,960 --> 00:21:41,960 Yeah. 301 00:21:41,960 --> 00:21:46,120 Thank you both for both. 302 00:21:46,120 --> 00:21:52,760 I'm glad one that the basic summary that I had is a good summary of what you guys were 303 00:21:52,760 --> 00:21:57,600 talking about last time. 304 00:21:57,600 --> 00:22:03,640 When we spend all of our time talking about edge cases, the dangers that I can see are 305 00:22:03,640 --> 00:22:12,760 one that we, in these hypothetical situations, one we lose sight of the stuff that's just 306 00:22:12,760 --> 00:22:18,880 right in front of our face every day that we need to live by, which is a lot of what 307 00:22:18,880 --> 00:22:24,280 we discussed in the past several episodes. 308 00:22:24,280 --> 00:22:33,000 And yeah, and that we can also get kind of caught up in an imaginary world that might 309 00:22:33,000 --> 00:22:36,080 never actually matter for us. 310 00:22:36,080 --> 00:22:37,480 So I totally hear that. 311 00:22:37,480 --> 00:22:46,640 And I think for the three of us in this room, the question of how do we act when we're physically 312 00:22:46,640 --> 00:22:50,440 in danger might be largely a theoretical question. 313 00:22:50,440 --> 00:22:55,000 For our brothers and sisters throughout the world, that is not a theoretical question. 314 00:22:55,000 --> 00:22:59,120 And for many of those who are listening, that might not be a theoretical question. 315 00:22:59,120 --> 00:23:04,800 And so I think it's still an important question to ask. 316 00:23:04,800 --> 00:23:09,360 And so that's why I'd like to take it next. 317 00:23:09,360 --> 00:23:11,960 So just ask directly. 318 00:23:11,960 --> 00:23:19,440 So do you guys think that there are, that what we see in the New Testament, right, the 319 00:23:19,440 --> 00:23:27,160 teachings of Jesus, the apostles, the example of the church, you know, how do these, do 320 00:23:27,160 --> 00:23:31,920 any of these teachings relate to situations of how we're called to act when we're physically 321 00:23:31,920 --> 00:23:32,920 in danger? 322 00:23:32,920 --> 00:23:33,920 Yeah. 323 00:23:33,920 --> 00:23:41,240 So I think there is a bit of what is Jesus addressing in when he's talking in the Sermon 324 00:23:41,240 --> 00:23:42,240 on the Mount. 325 00:23:42,240 --> 00:23:47,720 And then there's, which is, again, I think there's a difference in what he's saying there 326 00:23:47,720 --> 00:23:51,440 from every possible scenario. 327 00:23:51,440 --> 00:23:55,880 And you know, I think there, I agree, there's some danger in getting to hypotheticals. 328 00:23:55,880 --> 00:24:01,880 Although even with the Exodus 22 passage, it feels almost like they were trying to think 329 00:24:01,880 --> 00:24:04,760 of a hypothetical somehow, right? 330 00:24:04,760 --> 00:24:10,280 Like what's the, and how can you pull on the logical argument one way or the other and 331 00:24:10,280 --> 00:24:12,160 give an extreme and what would happen in that? 332 00:24:12,160 --> 00:24:16,880 And how would you, how would you get to the heart behind it by meditating on that, that 333 00:24:16,880 --> 00:24:17,880 verse? 334 00:24:17,880 --> 00:24:23,040 I think you could get somewhere with that, which I'm suggesting protecting your own 335 00:24:23,040 --> 00:24:25,320 self if you can. 336 00:24:25,320 --> 00:24:31,160 How that is meted out in the New Testament, I think is hard to, I don't think there's 337 00:24:31,160 --> 00:24:36,760 no definitive like list of possible scenarios where it's going to say, okay, now in this 338 00:24:36,760 --> 00:24:38,920 case you can do this or not. 339 00:24:38,920 --> 00:24:43,840 I think it is in the moment and training yourself to understand a little bit what that, what 340 00:24:43,840 --> 00:24:44,840 that might look like. 341 00:24:44,840 --> 00:24:51,640 So, but there are a few examples that I thought of that are maybe instructive. 342 00:24:51,640 --> 00:24:55,240 You know, there are several times where Jesus, it wasn't his time. 343 00:24:55,240 --> 00:24:56,640 And so he walked away. 344 00:24:56,640 --> 00:25:00,320 He left, he got out of a situation that was dangerous. 345 00:25:00,320 --> 00:25:05,360 Paul used his Roman citizenship one time to avoid being tortured. 346 00:25:05,360 --> 00:25:07,240 Good for you, Paul. 347 00:25:07,240 --> 00:25:11,280 Other times, you know, he realized he wasn't going to get out of it even when people are 348 00:25:11,280 --> 00:25:13,400 saying, hey, you're going to die. 349 00:25:13,400 --> 00:25:18,000 You're going to be bound like this and you know, this is your, your headed to danger. 350 00:25:18,000 --> 00:25:22,880 So there are certain times where it may not be possible for us to avoid something. 351 00:25:22,880 --> 00:25:24,200 And I think you're right, Tim. 352 00:25:24,200 --> 00:25:29,640 And this is a very important thing to mention for many of our listeners in the United States. 353 00:25:29,640 --> 00:25:32,080 This is, this is a hypothetical. 354 00:25:32,080 --> 00:25:35,440 The most that you're going to face is insult. 355 00:25:35,440 --> 00:25:42,440 You know, not actual persecution like what Jesus is talking about happened to his apostles. 356 00:25:42,440 --> 00:25:48,680 Everyone of them died except maybe John exiled on Patmos, killed for following Jesus. 357 00:25:48,680 --> 00:25:54,440 And same through, you know, read Fox's book of martyrs, like that that's just filled 358 00:25:54,440 --> 00:25:58,720 with, you know, lists of people and how they died for their faith in Jesus. 359 00:25:58,720 --> 00:26:02,200 And I think that so there is a difference there. 360 00:26:02,200 --> 00:26:06,760 And so maybe there's a situation where you can get out of it, great, but you might have 361 00:26:06,760 --> 00:26:14,960 to in some cases face again, for many us, here's this, this is kind of a hypothetical, 362 00:26:14,960 --> 00:26:15,960 right? 363 00:26:15,960 --> 00:26:20,600 But let's say you do have to face someone who's going to, you know, harm you for your 364 00:26:20,600 --> 00:26:21,600 faith. 365 00:26:21,600 --> 00:26:29,800 Well, I think in that situation, you do have to, to follow Jesus who was harmed for it. 366 00:26:29,800 --> 00:26:35,760 And I think that there is a, there's a lot more to this that we could pull on. 367 00:26:35,760 --> 00:26:42,000 I think when, you know, Paul is writing about respecting people in authority that carry 368 00:26:42,000 --> 00:26:43,160 the sword. 369 00:26:43,160 --> 00:26:48,240 He's writing at a time where those people worked for a government that was under Nero. 370 00:26:48,240 --> 00:26:56,520 And Christians maybe didn't want to participate in, you know, situations where they would 371 00:26:56,520 --> 00:27:03,200 be put in harm, but they did anyway, because they loved people that needed their help and 372 00:27:03,200 --> 00:27:05,800 they risked their personal lives. 373 00:27:05,800 --> 00:27:07,920 And so I think that is different. 374 00:27:07,920 --> 00:27:14,920 In some sense, I think all of us can take, should take this very, very seriously about 375 00:27:14,920 --> 00:27:22,440 how Jesus humbled himself to, to obedience, to, and humble obedience to death on a cross. 376 00:27:22,440 --> 00:27:28,040 And Isaiah, I just want to end here with this, he was oppressed and afflicted yet he did 377 00:27:28,040 --> 00:27:29,400 not open his mouth. 378 00:27:29,400 --> 00:27:34,200 He was led like a lamb to the slaughter and as the sheep before its shears is silent, 379 00:27:34,200 --> 00:27:37,320 so did he did not open his mouth. 380 00:27:37,320 --> 00:27:40,040 This is his defining act. 381 00:27:40,040 --> 00:27:42,080 Right. 382 00:27:42,080 --> 00:27:46,240 So I'd like to respond to that, but I want to make sure, because I think there's a lot 383 00:27:46,240 --> 00:27:49,160 that's really awesome that you just shared. 384 00:27:49,160 --> 00:27:51,800 And I want to make sure Van, do you have anything to add to that? 385 00:27:51,800 --> 00:27:56,400 In terms of the big picture, New Testament teachings, how do these relate to the goal? 386 00:27:56,400 --> 00:27:57,400 Yes. 387 00:27:57,400 --> 00:28:05,720 And I, and I agree that, that, that what you were saying, Matt, about for, when we talk 388 00:28:05,720 --> 00:28:18,360 about this situation as middle class Americans, we're kind of armchair quarterbacks on this. 389 00:28:18,360 --> 00:28:21,920 nobody is going to threaten us physically. 390 00:28:21,920 --> 00:28:24,680 Well, let me say it this way. 391 00:28:24,680 --> 00:28:31,520 It's probably very unlikely that we're going to be threatened physically because of our 392 00:28:31,520 --> 00:28:36,840 faith that we're going to be, we live in a, you know, there's crime everywhere and there's 393 00:28:36,840 --> 00:28:38,960 random acts of violence everywhere. 394 00:28:38,960 --> 00:28:43,760 You know, we live in a country where mass shootings have become normal. 395 00:28:43,760 --> 00:28:49,600 And what we're talking about is retaliating and there's just, there's simply no place 396 00:28:49,600 --> 00:29:00,920 in the New Testament that I could find where violent threats were responded to with violence. 397 00:29:00,920 --> 00:29:07,200 The passage I read before is the closest I've seen and Jesus who was right in the midst 398 00:29:07,200 --> 00:29:12,680 of it and who was going to be the primary victim of it said, nope, we're not talking 399 00:29:12,680 --> 00:29:14,560 about this now. 400 00:29:14,560 --> 00:29:17,680 And no, we're not doing this. 401 00:29:17,680 --> 00:29:20,720 And he healed the man who was injured. 402 00:29:20,720 --> 00:29:28,800 And so, and I think that that's a, that's a very, that's a very incredibly challenging 403 00:29:28,800 --> 00:29:31,680 thing for me. 404 00:29:31,680 --> 00:29:37,880 Growing up as I did now, I'm, I'm an old man now and I live in a suburb and my life 405 00:29:37,880 --> 00:29:43,080 is very, very, very, very extraordinarily safe. 406 00:29:43,080 --> 00:29:44,840 And I've gotten alarm on my house. 407 00:29:44,840 --> 00:29:51,400 I've got all kinds of stuff that I don't fear violence very often. 408 00:29:51,400 --> 00:29:57,760 Being a black man in America, sometimes I fear violence, you know, from, from the police 409 00:29:57,760 --> 00:30:04,560 or from whoever, but I, I live a pretty safe life. 410 00:30:04,560 --> 00:30:11,000 And I think the thing that, the thing that, the thing that I do in my heart is that I 411 00:30:11,000 --> 00:30:18,440 always say, God, when I see a situation where I think if that happened to me, if somebody 412 00:30:18,440 --> 00:30:27,160 did something to my child or to my wife or to my mother or to my friend, what would I 413 00:30:27,160 --> 00:30:28,160 do? 414 00:30:28,160 --> 00:30:31,000 Could I turn the other cheek? 415 00:30:31,000 --> 00:30:38,000 And the answer to that question is, I don't know, but the answer of what should I do in 416 00:30:38,000 --> 00:30:42,560 that situation is always, yes, I would, I should turn the other cheek. 417 00:30:42,560 --> 00:30:45,880 I should be more like Jesus. 418 00:30:45,880 --> 00:30:49,080 What we're going to talk about in a later podcast, I need to be perfect. 419 00:30:49,080 --> 00:30:52,480 That's my heavenly father is perfect. 420 00:30:52,480 --> 00:30:59,000 And but perfection for me is not something that I'm ever going to get to in this life. 421 00:30:59,000 --> 00:31:02,800 It's also something that I can never stop striving towards. 422 00:31:02,800 --> 00:31:08,880 And so I think what Jesus was saying to the apostles when he said enough of this conversation, 423 00:31:08,880 --> 00:31:17,720 I'm not talking about swords and violence, that he's saying, we can't have this discussion 424 00:31:17,720 --> 00:31:23,600 now, but I think that the whole, the whole push of scripture is this is a conversation 425 00:31:23,600 --> 00:31:30,480 we need to continue to have because we're all striving towards that perfection. 426 00:31:30,480 --> 00:31:31,480 Yeah. 427 00:31:31,480 --> 00:31:38,040 Yeah, I know we were already at 30 minutes, but we're going to go a little longer on this. 428 00:31:38,040 --> 00:31:44,360 There's there's basically two key thoughts that I wanted to address in this episode, 429 00:31:44,360 --> 00:31:46,240 but we're only going to have time for one. 430 00:31:46,240 --> 00:31:47,240 So we'll do this. 431 00:31:47,240 --> 00:31:52,560 We'll finish off this idea and then we'll, we'll tackle the next one in another episode. 432 00:31:52,560 --> 00:31:53,920 Sounds good. 433 00:31:53,920 --> 00:32:01,600 But what I, so you guys are saying similar things, but somewhat different things. 434 00:32:01,600 --> 00:32:08,960 I'm going to simplify a little bit and just respond kind of both to both of you. 435 00:32:08,960 --> 00:32:14,760 The reason I phrased the question the way I did is because I thought that we really 436 00:32:14,760 --> 00:32:21,480 didn't talk much about being physically in danger in the previous episodes. 437 00:32:21,480 --> 00:32:28,800 And, but this is the kind of the, when we get to talk about, bring things to like logical 438 00:32:28,800 --> 00:32:30,520 conclusion, right? 439 00:32:30,520 --> 00:32:35,720 This is where, you know, everyone's mind goes when they read Jesus's words for the first 440 00:32:35,720 --> 00:32:40,120 time or hear them for the first time in Matthew five. 441 00:32:40,120 --> 00:32:44,800 And we talked back when we were talking about wrestling with the word, right? 442 00:32:44,800 --> 00:32:51,440 Where you were wrestling with, we want to, you know, try to understand how all of the 443 00:32:51,440 --> 00:32:55,160 teachings of the Bible fit together, right? 444 00:32:55,160 --> 00:33:04,240 We want to only accept an interpretation if it lines up with the whole arc of scripture. 445 00:33:04,240 --> 00:33:11,960 And when I take a step back, right, from all of the, you know, Matthew 5:38-48 446 00:33:11,960 --> 00:33:16,200 that's one of the things I got to wrestle with. 447 00:33:16,200 --> 00:33:23,640 And I take a step back, I look at all of those examples from, from the rest of the New Testament. 448 00:33:23,640 --> 00:33:24,960 I agree with you, man. 449 00:33:24,960 --> 00:33:35,600 I cannot find a single example where a Christian used violent force to protect themselves or 450 00:33:35,600 --> 00:33:37,240 someone else. 451 00:33:37,240 --> 00:33:38,880 There was a lot of fleeing. 452 00:33:38,880 --> 00:33:39,880 Yeah. 453 00:33:39,880 --> 00:33:40,880 Run away. 454 00:33:40,880 --> 00:33:44,000 There's, if you read Acts, they're just on the run all the time. 455 00:33:44,000 --> 00:33:48,760 And in particular, after the stoning of Stephen, yeah, right, it said Saul approved of their 456 00:33:48,760 --> 00:33:50,120 killing him on that day. 457 00:33:50,120 --> 00:33:55,200 A great persecution broke out against the church in Jerusalem and all except the apostles 458 00:33:55,200 --> 00:33:58,480 were scattered throughout Judea and Samaria, right? 459 00:33:58,480 --> 00:34:00,240 They are fleeing. 460 00:34:00,240 --> 00:34:04,800 No one's trying to die here, right? 461 00:34:04,800 --> 00:34:08,760 That's very clear. 462 00:34:08,760 --> 00:34:16,000 And so, but, but with that said, the only instance of someone using force is what you 463 00:34:16,000 --> 00:34:17,360 said, Van. 464 00:34:17,360 --> 00:34:25,480 And you were reading the passage in Luke where Jesus has no more of this and Matthew adds 465 00:34:25,480 --> 00:34:29,080 to that in Matthew 26. 466 00:34:29,080 --> 00:34:34,960 There Jesus says, put your sword back in its place for all who draw the sword will die by 467 00:34:34,960 --> 00:34:37,640 the sword. 468 00:34:37,640 --> 00:34:51,160 So the crux of what I'm saying here is that if we have the teachings of Jesus here in Matthew 469 00:34:51,160 --> 00:34:59,160 5 and other teachings throughout scripture, and I can read some of them, but Romans 12, 470 00:34:59,160 --> 00:35:05,200 I mentioned first Peter that talk about not paying evil for evil, submitting to those 471 00:35:05,200 --> 00:35:09,680 who are harsh suffering for doing good. 472 00:35:09,680 --> 00:35:13,480 If your enemies hungry, feed him leaving room for God's wrath. 473 00:35:13,480 --> 00:35:23,160 If we have all of that and we have only examples of people willingly dying rather than defend 474 00:35:23,160 --> 00:35:26,680 themselves. 475 00:35:26,680 --> 00:35:36,840 Then I struggle to see how we could take all of that and say, but we can still defend ourselves 476 00:35:36,840 --> 00:35:39,200 and maybe kill someone in the process. 477 00:35:39,200 --> 00:35:43,520 I just, I just, I don't, I can't make that fit. 478 00:35:43,520 --> 00:35:48,000 And so that's where, that's where I'm, the crux of where I'm coming from on this particular 479 00:35:48,000 --> 00:35:49,000 issue. 480 00:35:49,000 --> 00:35:52,320 And I'm curious how you guys respond to that. 481 00:35:52,320 --> 00:35:53,320 Yeah. 482 00:35:53,320 --> 00:35:56,680 I think, I think you're right. 483 00:35:56,680 --> 00:36:02,720 Even if you look at like the Old Testament where you had a theocratic state and you had 484 00:36:02,720 --> 00:36:09,000 the people of God killing others, the larger lesson there, I think that you're supposed 485 00:36:09,000 --> 00:36:13,640 to draw is that you need to depend on God and that you should fight. 486 00:36:13,640 --> 00:36:17,400 But when we turn to the New Testament, the fight's not physical. 487 00:36:17,400 --> 00:36:23,120 Paul talks about in 2 Corinthians that our weapons are not worldly. 488 00:36:23,120 --> 00:36:26,840 So there is a spiritual battle that we're supposed to be waging. 489 00:36:26,840 --> 00:36:31,560 And when Paul talks about the armor of God and the sword of the spirit, he's not talking 490 00:36:31,560 --> 00:36:33,360 about literal swords. 491 00:36:33,360 --> 00:36:43,200 No, we're, we're doing battle and in our own hearts against sin and we're doing battle 492 00:36:43,200 --> 00:36:47,280 in a spiritual realm and fighting for other people around us too. 493 00:36:47,280 --> 00:36:50,120 And it's not the same kind of thing at all. 494 00:36:50,120 --> 00:36:59,480 So, you know, where do you come in and with that knowledge and then look at something 495 00:36:59,480 --> 00:37:01,280 like defending yourself? 496 00:37:01,280 --> 00:37:02,520 I think you're right. 497 00:37:02,520 --> 00:37:08,120 Again, going back to the Exodus 22 passage, I think there's an assumption that maybe protection 498 00:37:08,120 --> 00:37:11,120 is okay, but not killing. 499 00:37:11,120 --> 00:37:15,840 Even you know, let's say someone, and I think it's the difference between the night and 500 00:37:15,840 --> 00:37:22,520 day in that passage that draws out like, okay, maybe there's a certain situation where you 501 00:37:22,520 --> 00:37:29,680 didn't mean to do this and it happened just because someone came in and, you know, you 502 00:37:29,680 --> 00:37:33,840 wake up and, ah, there are, you know, and accidents happen. 503 00:37:33,840 --> 00:37:38,600 But during, if there's, as much as it depends on you, you have to protect yourself, but 504 00:37:38,600 --> 00:37:41,840 you don't, you don't have to kill someone in the process. 505 00:37:41,840 --> 00:37:46,040 That's, that is definitely not okay. 506 00:37:46,040 --> 00:37:47,200 Yeah. 507 00:37:47,200 --> 00:37:54,360 You know, I, when I was a kid, I took a, took a karate class. 508 00:37:54,360 --> 00:37:59,760 When I was a, when I was a teenager, I got to be a green belt, but I was never, I was 509 00:37:59,760 --> 00:38:00,760 never the fighter. 510 00:38:00,760 --> 00:38:03,080 I was not. 511 00:38:03,080 --> 00:38:06,000 I went to two karate tournaments. 512 00:38:06,000 --> 00:38:07,920 I have a perfect record. 513 00:38:07,920 --> 00:38:09,240 Two knockouts. 514 00:38:09,240 --> 00:38:12,040 I got knocked out twice. 515 00:38:12,040 --> 00:38:17,920 So that tells you what a, what a fighter I am, but one of the things, one of the rules 516 00:38:17,920 --> 00:38:22,880 was that you defend yourself, you run. 517 00:38:22,880 --> 00:38:27,120 The first rule was run and the second rule was defend yourself. 518 00:38:27,120 --> 00:38:30,480 And then only after you had no other options was there. 519 00:38:30,480 --> 00:38:31,480 Okay. 520 00:38:31,480 --> 00:38:32,480 Now you fight. 521 00:38:32,480 --> 00:38:37,040 Now you have to respond with violence. 522 00:38:37,040 --> 00:38:41,800 But you know, the, the, the, and that makes logical sense to me. 523 00:38:41,800 --> 00:38:46,920 That sounds, that sounds moral. 524 00:38:46,920 --> 00:38:52,400 But I think that we have to, we have to put that with all of the other very radical statements 525 00:38:52,400 --> 00:38:58,640 that Jesus has been saying through this whole section of the sermon. 526 00:38:58,640 --> 00:39:08,120 You know, it's a, it's a discussion that I still have with myself. 527 00:39:08,120 --> 00:39:13,240 It's a discussion that I still have in my relationship with God. 528 00:39:13,240 --> 00:39:15,120 And, but you're right. 529 00:39:15,120 --> 00:39:24,280 I just don't see any Christian doing any violence in the Bible. 530 00:39:24,280 --> 00:39:33,760 And, and so it means that that is the standard that that's the only standard that I can really 531 00:39:33,760 --> 00:39:36,080 take up. 532 00:39:36,080 --> 00:39:40,280 And so I need to, just as I know I'm not perfect. 533 00:39:40,280 --> 00:39:52,920 I know I can say, I know that lust is wrong and I should never ever lust, but it's a fight. 534 00:39:52,920 --> 00:39:57,880 Any other moral failing that I have, it's always a fight. 535 00:39:57,880 --> 00:40:07,280 But somehow the, the moral failing of violence in the face of violence is just, it's harder. 536 00:40:07,280 --> 00:40:11,400 And I think it's harder for Westerners. 537 00:40:11,400 --> 00:40:15,120 I think it's harder for Americans. 538 00:40:15,120 --> 00:40:23,320 I think it's harder for people who grew up in, in violent neighborhoods, but I think 539 00:40:23,320 --> 00:40:29,920 it's still the, it's still the fight that we have to, that we have to take up because 540 00:40:29,920 --> 00:40:33,760 it's, it's what Jesus said. 541 00:40:33,760 --> 00:40:35,200 It's more than what Jesus said. 542 00:40:35,200 --> 00:40:37,960 It's what Jesus did. 543 00:40:37,960 --> 00:40:44,480 And, but I think that the, I think the discussion needs to continue. 544 00:40:44,480 --> 00:40:48,720 And I think we'll get more into it in the next section when we talk about, you know, 545 00:40:48,720 --> 00:40:52,320 governments and, and people who, you know, where he says they don't carry the sword for 546 00:40:52,320 --> 00:40:53,320 nothing. 547 00:40:53,320 --> 00:40:58,840 We haven't touched the police officer military like serving in a government and none of that. 548 00:40:58,840 --> 00:41:03,680 We haven't touched any of that yet, but I think as, as far as, and you know, at, at 549 00:41:03,680 --> 00:41:08,800 this, at this recording where what a week and a half, two weeks away from Martin Luther 550 00:41:08,800 --> 00:41:10,480 King day. 551 00:41:10,480 --> 00:41:17,560 And of course, Dr. King stance was non violence. 552 00:41:17,560 --> 00:41:26,560 He walked arm in arm with people carrying no weapons into people who had dogs and batons 553 00:41:26,560 --> 00:41:28,760 and guns. 554 00:41:28,760 --> 00:41:30,760 And we know what happened to him. 555 00:41:30,760 --> 00:41:31,760 Yeah. 556 00:41:31,760 --> 00:41:37,000 I think there's a difference to maybe from that example that we can draw between the 557 00:41:37,000 --> 00:41:42,120 personal one-on-one kind of interaction with someone versus an asymmetric power struggle 558 00:41:42,120 --> 00:41:53,280 with a government or, I mean, you could even say like a cultural or religious, like what, 559 00:41:53,280 --> 00:41:58,200 you know, persecution that the Christians faced in the first century, or even mobs, 560 00:41:58,200 --> 00:41:59,200 right? 561 00:41:59,200 --> 00:42:03,520 Like mob, you know, it's like, so what do you, what do you do in that situation? 562 00:42:03,520 --> 00:42:05,120 I think that might look different. 563 00:42:05,120 --> 00:42:12,760 Like, okay, well, I guess if I can't get away from this, I'm, this might be it. 564 00:42:12,760 --> 00:42:15,960 And how do I die now with grace? 565 00:42:15,960 --> 00:42:21,880 And how can I draw like what Stephen did to, to look to God in that situation? 566 00:42:21,880 --> 00:42:29,800 Or I don't know, I'm also reminded of, is it Turtulian that said the seeds of the church 567 00:42:29,800 --> 00:42:33,760 or the blood of the saints as the seeds of the church, something like that? 568 00:42:33,760 --> 00:42:41,720 And, that in those situations, if we face them, we would be called to entrust ourselves 569 00:42:41,720 --> 00:42:45,600 to him who judges justly and somehow God has a purpose for this that we don't understand 570 00:42:45,600 --> 00:42:47,880 but to still trust him. 571 00:42:47,880 --> 00:42:49,400 Can I ask about that? 572 00:42:49,400 --> 00:42:52,200 And this is probably close to where we'll end. 573 00:42:52,200 --> 00:42:55,040 Because that doesn't make, that idea doesn't make sense to me. 574 00:42:55,040 --> 00:43:01,800 I do see that, I mean, in the New Testament, the Christians are obviously being persecuted 575 00:43:01,800 --> 00:43:07,160 by the Romans by the religious elite. 576 00:43:07,160 --> 00:43:10,680 But that's, that's the situation. 577 00:43:10,680 --> 00:43:20,120 But if the, if the argument is, you know, if you're gonna die anyways, because you can't 578 00:43:20,120 --> 00:43:25,160 defend yourself because the other side's too powerful, you might as well die with grace. 579 00:43:25,160 --> 00:43:28,800 What's the logical conclusion if, well, then you're on an equal power structure? 580 00:43:28,800 --> 00:43:36,160 I just, I don't see how, I don't see how the teachings of Jesus and the, in the, the 581 00:43:36,160 --> 00:43:43,880 example of Jesus and the church change when it's not, you know, the U.S. coming at me 582 00:43:43,880 --> 00:43:50,200 with their military versus, you know, it's a guy on the street coming at me who I could, 583 00:43:50,200 --> 00:43:54,720 I could duke out. 584 00:43:54,720 --> 00:44:03,360 I, I think the guy on the street coming at me, I would run away maybe, or I would like 585 00:44:03,360 --> 00:44:04,560 ask for help or I don't know. 586 00:44:04,560 --> 00:44:10,760 I guess, I guess what I was hearing before was you were, I thought you were saying, and 587 00:44:10,760 --> 00:44:15,040 this is why I'm gone, we gotta clarify because I don't want to put words into your mouth 588 00:44:15,040 --> 00:44:17,120 or assume something you're not saying. 589 00:44:17,120 --> 00:44:22,440 But I thought you were saying, you know, someone like Martin Luther King, you know, or, or 590 00:44:22,440 --> 00:44:27,080 anyone in the New Testament, you know, there's asymmetrical authority. 591 00:44:27,080 --> 00:44:29,160 So they're non-resistant. 592 00:44:29,160 --> 00:44:37,760 They're not retaliating, but maybe that retaliation could be acceptable if there's an equal power 593 00:44:37,760 --> 00:44:38,760 dynamic. 594 00:44:38,760 --> 00:44:40,960 No, I wasn't saying that. 595 00:44:40,960 --> 00:44:41,960 Okay. 596 00:44:41,960 --> 00:44:42,960 Okay. 597 00:44:42,960 --> 00:44:46,400 I was saying it might be impossible for you to, to escape. 598 00:44:46,400 --> 00:44:48,280 There might be nowhere you can escape to. 599 00:44:48,280 --> 00:44:50,360 There's no chance for you to get out of it. 600 00:44:50,360 --> 00:44:51,680 There's no way out. 601 00:44:51,680 --> 00:44:53,960 And you're just going to get killed. 602 00:44:53,960 --> 00:44:56,800 Like Steven, who's like in the Sanhedrin. 603 00:44:56,800 --> 00:44:58,400 There's no way for him to run. 604 00:44:58,400 --> 00:44:59,400 He's surrounded. 605 00:44:59,400 --> 00:45:00,400 Yeah. 606 00:45:00,400 --> 00:45:01,400 It's it. 607 00:45:01,400 --> 00:45:02,400 That's it. 608 00:45:02,400 --> 00:45:03,400 Okay. 609 00:45:03,400 --> 00:45:07,200 Well, I'm really glad I clarified then because I grossly misunderstood you. 610 00:45:07,200 --> 00:45:12,320 And, and honestly, I think that that might kind of be a good place for us to stop here. 611 00:45:12,320 --> 00:45:16,720 And the reason for that, I know we don't like to necessarily land on stuff in a particular 612 00:45:16,720 --> 00:45:17,720 episode. 613 00:45:17,720 --> 00:45:25,920 But my goal for asking this set of questions here is really to get us thinking and wrestling 614 00:45:25,920 --> 00:45:31,680 with the broader New Testament and thinking about how does Jesus' teachings here in Matthew 615 00:45:31,680 --> 00:45:36,960 five fit into everything else that we're seeing in the witness of the church? 616 00:45:36,960 --> 00:45:44,440 I think there's a, a lot to say there that would favor an interpretation of Matthew 5 617 00:45:44,440 --> 00:45:51,520 that doesn't end at insult, but includes that even in the cases of assault or physical danger 618 00:45:51,520 --> 00:45:55,440 that were called to love our enemies that were called to non retaliation. 619 00:45:55,440 --> 00:46:00,920 And that's in a nutshell how it summarized my understanding of this and the rest of the 620 00:46:00,920 --> 00:46:03,480 New Testament on this teaching. 621 00:46:03,480 --> 00:46:08,720 But there's some really cool questions and media questions for us to dive into around 622 00:46:08,720 --> 00:46:15,400 the, basically the government and how we are connected to the government and what we do 623 00:46:15,400 --> 00:46:16,880 with that. 624 00:46:16,880 --> 00:46:20,000 And so I think that's going to take a little bit more time. 625 00:46:20,000 --> 00:46:23,000 And so we're going to come back for a part six. 626 00:46:23,000 --> 00:46:24,000 Sounds great. 627 00:46:24,000 --> 00:46:25,000 Looking forward to it. 628 00:46:25,000 --> 00:46:26,000 Thank you. 629 00:46:26,000 --> 00:46:42,000 Thank you.