1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:08,840 Hey, I'm Matt Brownell. 2 00:00:08,840 --> 00:00:10,480 And I'm Van Owens. 3 00:00:10,480 --> 00:00:12,160 And I'm Tim Adams. 4 00:00:12,160 --> 00:00:18,120 Welcome to Climbing the Mountain, where we dive into the scriptures and discuss themes, 5 00:00:18,120 --> 00:00:21,280 connections, and real life application. 6 00:00:21,280 --> 00:00:24,960 We're kicking off a series here where we're going to examine the Sermon on the Mount and 7 00:00:24,960 --> 00:00:33,400 discuss implications for this teaching for Christians today. 8 00:00:33,400 --> 00:00:34,400 Welcome back. 9 00:00:34,400 --> 00:00:41,160 We've been studying the beginning of the Sermon on the Mount, the Six Antitheses, where Jesus 10 00:00:41,160 --> 00:00:49,240 says, you have heard it said, but I say, and then he speaks from an authority that the teachers 11 00:00:49,240 --> 00:00:52,280 of the law did not possess. 12 00:00:52,280 --> 00:00:55,280 So we're down to the final one now. 13 00:00:55,280 --> 00:01:03,320 And Jesus sums up a lot of what he was talking about, beginning back in Matthew 5:17, when 14 00:01:03,320 --> 00:01:05,840 he said he came to fulfill the law. 15 00:01:05,840 --> 00:01:11,440 And he says that anyone who relaxes the law, like their teachers had done, will be least 16 00:01:11,440 --> 00:01:12,600 in the kingdom of heaven. 17 00:01:12,600 --> 00:01:19,480 And then he goes even further and says, we'll not even enter the kingdom unless our righteousness 18 00:01:19,480 --> 00:01:25,440 surpasses that of the Pharisees and teachers of the law. 19 00:01:25,440 --> 00:01:26,760 Why? 20 00:01:26,760 --> 00:01:30,080 They were relaxing the holy standards of God. 21 00:01:30,080 --> 00:01:35,160 So in all of these examples, we're seeing either a narrowing of the law. 22 00:01:35,160 --> 00:01:39,240 We're seeing clever lawyering, where we're pitting different scriptures. 23 00:01:39,240 --> 00:01:40,480 We're cutting things off. 24 00:01:40,480 --> 00:01:44,200 We're doing what we're creating, these loop holes. 25 00:01:44,200 --> 00:01:48,760 We're expanding laws, taking them from the public area, putting them into the private 26 00:01:48,760 --> 00:01:51,640 life where they're not intended to apply. 27 00:01:51,640 --> 00:01:56,280 And this last example that we're about to read has a little of all of it. 28 00:01:56,280 --> 00:01:58,560 It's a summary too of the whole thing. 29 00:01:58,560 --> 00:02:03,040 So Tim, you want to read Matthew 5:43-48? 30 00:02:03,040 --> 00:02:04,040 Yes. 31 00:02:04,040 --> 00:02:09,320 It says, you have heard that it was said, love your neighbor and hate your enemy. 32 00:02:09,320 --> 00:02:13,400 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may 33 00:02:13,400 --> 00:02:15,840 be children of your Father in heaven. 34 00:02:15,840 --> 00:02:20,320 He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous 35 00:02:20,320 --> 00:02:22,320 and the unrighteous. 36 00:02:22,320 --> 00:02:25,760 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? 37 00:02:25,760 --> 00:02:27,920 Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 38 00:02:27,920 --> 00:02:31,960 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? 39 00:02:31,960 --> 00:02:34,200 Do not even pagans do that? 40 00:02:34,200 --> 00:02:37,400 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect. 41 00:02:37,400 --> 00:02:38,400 Thanks. 42 00:02:38,400 --> 00:02:47,320 So it's my great pleasure to introduce Darryl Owens, who's an elder in our church, and 43 00:02:47,320 --> 00:02:48,920 a police officer. 44 00:02:48,920 --> 00:02:53,840 And I can think of no one better to help us bridge the gap between retaliation, what we 45 00:02:53,840 --> 00:02:57,160 were just talking about, and loving your enemy. 46 00:02:57,160 --> 00:03:01,040 And all the thorny questions that usually arise when we study these passages. 47 00:03:01,040 --> 00:03:05,280 Van, would you like to say a few words about our special guest? 48 00:03:05,280 --> 00:03:07,280 Sure. 49 00:03:07,280 --> 00:03:09,240 I'm happy that Darryl's here with us. 50 00:03:09,240 --> 00:03:13,440 I've known Darryl for 50 some odd years. 51 00:03:13,440 --> 00:03:17,400 We're brothers, we grew up together. 52 00:03:17,400 --> 00:03:21,280 And I can say, and it's interesting because we talked about this a little bit as we greeted 53 00:03:21,280 --> 00:03:25,920 each other while we were having lunch and hanging out before we started doing this, 54 00:03:25,920 --> 00:03:32,680 is that so I believe when Darryl started his career as a police officer, it meant something 55 00:03:32,680 --> 00:03:37,720 very different to him then than what it means now. 56 00:03:37,720 --> 00:03:44,280 And in the progress of that time, he became a Christian, he was baptized and became a 57 00:03:44,280 --> 00:03:45,280 Christian. 58 00:03:45,280 --> 00:03:46,640 He's now an elder in our church. 59 00:03:46,640 --> 00:03:53,400 And I will say that Darryl is somebody who is very observant about everything that he 60 00:03:53,400 --> 00:03:55,760 does. 61 00:03:55,760 --> 00:04:01,840 He wants to know how to do it right, and he wants to know the reasons behind doing it. 62 00:04:01,840 --> 00:04:04,560 He wants to really understand it. 63 00:04:04,560 --> 00:04:07,000 And that's even outside of his spirituality. 64 00:04:07,000 --> 00:04:12,360 And I think that his Christian walk has given another dimension to that. 65 00:04:12,360 --> 00:04:17,680 So I'm very interested in having this discussion with you, Darryl, and hearing what you have 66 00:04:17,680 --> 00:04:18,680 to say. 67 00:04:18,680 --> 00:04:27,000 I will say also that Darryl has a very accurate and humble perception about all of his abilities 68 00:04:27,000 --> 00:04:32,960 and everything that he's done and he's quite an accomplished man as a police officer. 69 00:04:32,960 --> 00:04:35,440 He's done a lot for the community. 70 00:04:35,440 --> 00:04:38,440 He's done a lot in his job. 71 00:04:38,440 --> 00:04:45,160 About the only thing he gets wrong is his ability to fry chicken, which is far inferior 72 00:04:45,160 --> 00:04:48,280 to that of one of his other siblings. 73 00:04:48,280 --> 00:04:49,280 Okay. 74 00:04:49,280 --> 00:04:50,280 All right. 75 00:04:50,280 --> 00:04:51,280 Jesus. 76 00:04:51,280 --> 00:04:52,280 Yeah. 77 00:04:52,280 --> 00:04:54,880 Thanks for that really special introduction. 78 00:04:54,880 --> 00:04:56,280 Except for the last part. 79 00:04:56,280 --> 00:04:58,160 Except for that part. 80 00:04:58,160 --> 00:05:00,880 Darryl, thanks for joining us. 81 00:05:00,880 --> 00:05:03,760 So last time we were talking about retaliation. 82 00:05:03,760 --> 00:05:11,000 And since these last two examples are related, could you tell us a little bit about the work 83 00:05:11,000 --> 00:05:15,840 you've been doing with Boston Police and I know you've been training officers in the 84 00:05:15,840 --> 00:05:19,280 use of force and de-escalation techniques. 85 00:05:19,280 --> 00:05:23,760 What have you learned through this work about the battle that starts within us, inside our 86 00:05:23,760 --> 00:05:28,600 hearts and the role of meekness in our lives? 87 00:05:28,600 --> 00:05:32,040 Well it's an interesting question. 88 00:05:32,040 --> 00:05:34,840 So I'll start with my background on the Boston Police Department. 89 00:05:34,840 --> 00:05:42,400 I started in 1989 is when I became a, well when I started the police academy was in 1989. 90 00:05:42,400 --> 00:05:49,960 And immediately upon graduation, a few months later, I went to the Jamaica Plain neighborhood 91 00:05:49,960 --> 00:05:51,680 in Boston. 92 00:05:51,680 --> 00:05:57,640 And I would say that I was a pretty driven police officer. 93 00:05:57,640 --> 00:06:02,600 I had a very high arrest total. 94 00:06:02,600 --> 00:06:06,200 I took a lot of guns off the street. 95 00:06:06,200 --> 00:06:09,120 I took a lot of drugs off the street. 96 00:06:09,120 --> 00:06:14,760 I was known as the guy who could find something when no one else could find something. 97 00:06:14,760 --> 00:06:15,840 I mean you name it. 98 00:06:15,840 --> 00:06:19,280 I could find a spent round in a grocery store. 99 00:06:19,280 --> 00:06:20,560 I did that a few times. 100 00:06:20,560 --> 00:06:29,320 I could find the bad guy because I would remember, I would drive out every morning and sort of 101 00:06:29,320 --> 00:06:31,600 memorize what everybody was wearing. 102 00:06:31,600 --> 00:06:36,720 Like all of the players in my neighborhood, I would just look at them, memorize them. 103 00:06:36,720 --> 00:06:41,560 So when a description came out for them, I knew who it was even if they had changed their 104 00:06:41,560 --> 00:06:44,200 clothes by the time we were looking for them. 105 00:06:44,200 --> 00:06:46,760 So and that was great. 106 00:06:46,760 --> 00:06:50,960 And I feel like during those times, I had an interesting perspective on the job. 107 00:06:50,960 --> 00:06:52,480 I was very aggressive. 108 00:06:52,480 --> 00:06:55,400 I believed in being very aggressive. 109 00:06:55,400 --> 00:06:57,000 It was not theoretical for me. 110 00:06:57,000 --> 00:07:02,160 I just translated into go get bad guys, go get bad guys, go get bad guys. 111 00:07:02,160 --> 00:07:04,400 That's my job. 112 00:07:04,400 --> 00:07:11,800 Later on, because of some of my physical abilities, I was asked to go to the police academy to 113 00:07:11,800 --> 00:07:16,240 teach self-defense, a course called defensive tactics. 114 00:07:16,240 --> 00:07:22,320 And I feel like that was a very transformative experience for me because I was teaching police 115 00:07:22,320 --> 00:07:29,960 officers tactics and techniques that if placed in the wrong hands could be very harmful to 116 00:07:29,960 --> 00:07:31,640 the public. 117 00:07:31,640 --> 00:07:40,240 And being a black man from the inner city in Boston and having family and cousins and 118 00:07:40,240 --> 00:07:46,120 friends and neighbors who are still in the inner city of Boston, I felt I was being a 119 00:07:46,120 --> 00:07:48,200 custodian for them. 120 00:07:48,200 --> 00:07:52,400 So I needed to teach these techniques so that the police officers could be safe, but I needed 121 00:07:52,400 --> 00:08:01,080 to teach a responsibility to those techniques so that my family, friends, neighbors, and 122 00:08:01,080 --> 00:08:04,240 people who looked like me in Boston would be safe. 123 00:08:04,240 --> 00:08:06,960 So that's what I've done for the city of Boston. 124 00:08:06,960 --> 00:08:09,640 That's sort of the launch of me. 125 00:08:09,640 --> 00:08:14,200 There's so much more that I could take the whole time to talk about, but that's in a 126 00:08:14,200 --> 00:08:17,480 nutshell, and of course, in there, I became a disciple. 127 00:08:17,480 --> 00:08:20,600 I became a disciple right before I went to the police academy. 128 00:08:20,600 --> 00:08:25,560 So God basically snatched me off the street and put me in a teaching role. 129 00:08:25,560 --> 00:08:36,120 And how did that experience, becoming a Christian, change the way you viewed your job? 130 00:08:36,120 --> 00:08:40,320 It was progressive, actually. 131 00:08:40,320 --> 00:08:49,280 I remember I had a talk with a now very good, very long-time friend of mine, and we were 132 00:08:49,280 --> 00:08:51,720 driving back from a church event. 133 00:08:51,720 --> 00:08:52,720 This was very early. 134 00:08:52,720 --> 00:08:56,160 She's like, that's so interesting that you're a cop. 135 00:08:56,160 --> 00:08:58,120 What are you going to do if you have to kill somebody? 136 00:08:58,120 --> 00:09:03,240 And I was like, well, I hope never to be there. 137 00:09:03,240 --> 00:09:04,240 That's first. 138 00:09:04,240 --> 00:09:12,120 And I hope to do everything I can do to not get there, but the word have to, the phrase 139 00:09:12,120 --> 00:09:16,040 have to is one I'll have to consider before I answer the question. 140 00:09:16,040 --> 00:09:21,280 And hopefully I'll answer the question in the moment and not in this car, in this conversation. 141 00:09:21,280 --> 00:09:25,360 That was my answer. 142 00:09:25,360 --> 00:09:31,600 But how it's really changed, it's really evolved over time. 143 00:09:31,600 --> 00:09:40,360 I have a lot of ideas from the world of de-escalation, and I have a lot of ideas that very much 144 00:09:40,360 --> 00:09:47,320 counteract with what the populace, with what the common person, with even some of my brothers 145 00:09:47,320 --> 00:09:50,680 and sisters in the church, think about my job. 146 00:09:50,680 --> 00:09:57,240 So there's just probably volumes of thoughts that I have, because I have to sit with this 147 00:09:57,240 --> 00:09:58,240 every day. 148 00:09:58,240 --> 00:10:00,560 And so I've answered the question many times. 149 00:10:00,560 --> 00:10:08,240 And police officers are trained to use force if they need to. 150 00:10:08,240 --> 00:10:14,840 How do you deal with, last time we were talking about retaliation and how it's such a visceral 151 00:10:14,840 --> 00:10:19,040 reaction, someone hurts you, you want to get back at them. 152 00:10:19,040 --> 00:10:25,000 How do you deal with, because we're all human, we all face those feelings, but now suddenly 153 00:10:25,000 --> 00:10:30,400 you're in a position where you've got a gun, you've been trained to use a gun, you've 154 00:10:30,400 --> 00:10:37,680 been trained to fight, and you've got people that are, you probably see the worst in humanity 155 00:10:37,680 --> 00:10:43,520 a lot more than the rest of us, because you're sent to places where that's happening. 156 00:10:43,520 --> 00:10:49,840 How do you deal with those kind of feelings that are so, everyone has them? 157 00:10:49,840 --> 00:10:50,840 That's a great question. 158 00:10:50,840 --> 00:10:53,640 I can answer it as Darryl Owens. 159 00:10:53,640 --> 00:10:59,000 Not as a representative of the amazing Boston Church of Christ as an elder, and not as a 160 00:10:59,000 --> 00:11:03,400 representative of the Boston Police Department for whom I've worked for 33 years. 161 00:11:03,400 --> 00:11:05,840 I can answer it for me. 162 00:11:05,840 --> 00:11:09,600 I do not believe in retaliation. 163 00:11:09,600 --> 00:11:13,720 It is not something that is in my heart or in my veins. 164 00:11:13,720 --> 00:11:18,480 It doesn't mean I don't feel the need to retaliate sometimes. 165 00:11:18,480 --> 00:11:20,640 And if I do, I get open about that. 166 00:11:20,640 --> 00:11:28,960 I talk to my brother when I feel retaliatory, or I talk to another one of the valued brother 167 00:11:28,960 --> 00:11:34,280 in my life, like a guy like Jim Mowe, I talk to him when I feel retaliatory. 168 00:11:34,280 --> 00:11:36,800 But it's something that I don't do. 169 00:11:36,800 --> 00:11:41,680 And I have a real life example. 170 00:11:41,680 --> 00:11:47,400 After the killing of George Floyd, there was a lot of protests in the city of Boston. 171 00:11:47,400 --> 00:11:52,960 And I remember it very clearly that, so a lot of us were just out in the streets of 172 00:11:52,960 --> 00:11:56,080 Boston standing around. 173 00:11:56,080 --> 00:12:00,960 And when the protest was approaching us, we would put on our helmets and our face shields 174 00:12:00,960 --> 00:12:02,960 and get these long 36-inch batons. 175 00:12:02,960 --> 00:12:07,520 And it sounds really bad to me, be saying, hey, this is your elder going up there with 176 00:12:07,520 --> 00:12:09,040 a 36-inch baton. 177 00:12:09,040 --> 00:12:11,160 But so we'd be out there. 178 00:12:11,160 --> 00:12:20,200 And I can remember very clearly one day this young woman came up to me, and she was in 179 00:12:20,200 --> 00:12:29,240 my face, and she was yelling at me, and she was calling me all kinds of terrible names. 180 00:12:29,240 --> 00:12:35,560 But the one that registered the most, that hurt the most, was when she called me a racist. 181 00:12:35,560 --> 00:12:39,200 She was suggesting that I'm an anti-black racist. 182 00:12:39,200 --> 00:12:47,360 And then she coughed up just enough saliva in her mouth and spat it right on my face 183 00:12:47,360 --> 00:12:48,360 shield. 184 00:12:48,360 --> 00:12:49,360 It was disgusting. 185 00:12:49,360 --> 00:12:57,640 And in that moment, I stepped back off the line and went to clean my face shield so I 186 00:12:57,640 --> 00:12:59,320 could see better. 187 00:12:59,320 --> 00:13:00,840 And I did nothing to her. 188 00:13:00,840 --> 00:13:05,280 And if it happened again today, I would do nothing to her. 189 00:13:05,280 --> 00:13:09,760 I mean, there's no need to retaliate that kind of hate for hate. 190 00:13:09,760 --> 00:13:14,480 I recognize in that moment, she is in a lot of sin. 191 00:13:14,480 --> 00:13:24,240 And I could be in a lot of sin if I overreacted and used this 36-inch piece of wood in the 192 00:13:24,240 --> 00:13:26,360 wrong way. 193 00:13:26,360 --> 00:13:35,840 My job, the reason I was out there, was to protect her, my colleagues, and to protect 194 00:13:35,840 --> 00:13:37,120 property. 195 00:13:37,120 --> 00:13:38,120 And I did that. 196 00:13:38,120 --> 00:13:40,720 And I just went back and I cleaned my face shield. 197 00:13:40,720 --> 00:13:42,840 I was grossed out for sure. 198 00:13:42,840 --> 00:13:46,920 But I cleaned my face shield and then I went out and got back on the line. 199 00:13:46,920 --> 00:13:48,200 Wow. 200 00:13:48,200 --> 00:13:50,280 That is a great example. 201 00:13:50,280 --> 00:13:52,440 That's, thank you for sharing that. 202 00:13:52,440 --> 00:13:53,720 I have a counter example. 203 00:13:53,720 --> 00:13:54,720 You do? 204 00:13:54,720 --> 00:13:55,720 Yeah. 205 00:13:55,720 --> 00:13:56,720 Okay. 206 00:13:56,720 --> 00:14:01,960 Once when we were very little, Van and I were on a ferris wheel. 207 00:14:01,960 --> 00:14:06,560 And sometimes you're in front of the car next to you, the front of the car adjacent to you, 208 00:14:06,560 --> 00:14:08,800 and sometimes you're behind them. 209 00:14:08,800 --> 00:14:19,520 And we were on a ferris wheel in the south, in Arkansas, in the early 70s. 210 00:14:19,520 --> 00:14:24,000 And that there were two white kids on the car adjacent to us. 211 00:14:24,000 --> 00:14:25,640 And sometimes they'd be behind us. 212 00:14:25,640 --> 00:14:28,200 Sometimes they'd be in front of us. 213 00:14:28,200 --> 00:14:32,320 And when they were behind us, they spat on us. 214 00:14:32,320 --> 00:14:34,680 And it was the same level of disgust. 215 00:14:34,680 --> 00:14:36,240 So this is in my background. 216 00:14:36,240 --> 00:14:41,160 Van and I got off the ferris wheel and waited for those two guys and we fought those two 217 00:14:41,160 --> 00:14:42,160 guys. 218 00:14:42,160 --> 00:14:45,000 We were little boys, which is something little boys do. 219 00:14:45,000 --> 00:14:49,200 Little boys don't understand that, you know, you don't have to retaliate for everything. 220 00:14:49,200 --> 00:14:55,400 And so when I was a little boy, I didn't understand this lack of desire to retaliate. 221 00:14:55,400 --> 00:15:00,920 But I do now because I know, I understand the power that I have as a police officer. 222 00:15:00,920 --> 00:15:03,040 Wow. 223 00:15:03,040 --> 00:15:07,320 You've also worked with the town of Ferguson. 224 00:15:07,320 --> 00:15:10,680 Can you tell us a little bit about that work and what you've learned from it, especially 225 00:15:10,680 --> 00:15:12,960 as it relates to loving your enemies? 226 00:15:12,960 --> 00:15:13,960 Yeah. 227 00:15:13,960 --> 00:15:17,520 I'm glad to answer this question. 228 00:15:17,520 --> 00:15:20,720 I'll tell you a little bit about what I'm doing in Ferguson and what I've learned first 229 00:15:20,720 --> 00:15:23,480 before I deal with the loving your enemies part. 230 00:15:23,480 --> 00:15:29,720 So Ferguson, as we all know, as we might know, they're a town where the Black Lives Matter 231 00:15:29,720 --> 00:15:33,880 movement really officially and formally started. 232 00:15:33,880 --> 00:15:40,960 And what was the catalyst for starting that was the police shooting of Michael Brown. 233 00:15:40,960 --> 00:15:44,600 Now, I don't know the facts of this shooting, so I won't go into it and I don't feel like 234 00:15:44,600 --> 00:15:46,200 I need to here. 235 00:15:46,200 --> 00:15:52,920 But what ended up happening is that some investigators found out that there are some practices in 236 00:15:52,920 --> 00:15:57,920 the city of Ferguson that were constitutional violations. 237 00:15:57,920 --> 00:16:03,680 The Department of Justice and the city of Ferguson brokered a deal in the federal court 238 00:16:03,680 --> 00:16:05,360 called a consent decree. 239 00:16:05,360 --> 00:16:07,000 Both parties signed onto it. 240 00:16:07,000 --> 00:16:13,880 And as part of the consent decree, a third party called the monitoring team was to look 241 00:16:13,880 --> 00:16:16,120 at all of Ferguson's practices. 242 00:16:16,120 --> 00:16:22,800 And there's a whole thing, the Ferguson consent decree, that outlines the work that this monitoring 243 00:16:22,800 --> 00:16:23,960 team does. 244 00:16:23,960 --> 00:16:26,120 I am on the monitoring team. 245 00:16:26,120 --> 00:16:31,040 I am the use of force subject matter expert on the monitoring team. 246 00:16:31,040 --> 00:16:37,240 So what I do is I have an inside look at their operations as it relates to use of force. 247 00:16:37,240 --> 00:16:38,800 I can see their reports. 248 00:16:38,800 --> 00:16:41,280 I can see their body camera videos. 249 00:16:41,280 --> 00:16:45,000 I can see their use of force interactions. 250 00:16:45,000 --> 00:16:48,720 I have them privy to their rules and their training around this area. 251 00:16:48,720 --> 00:16:52,160 And I get to have make findings and make suggestions. 252 00:16:52,160 --> 00:16:55,040 And it's been very difficult work. 253 00:16:55,040 --> 00:16:56,440 It's been interesting. 254 00:16:56,440 --> 00:16:59,680 It's very stimulating mentally for me at this point in my career. 255 00:16:59,680 --> 00:17:10,000 But it's also been very interesting because I'm seeing this dynamic played out of how 256 00:17:10,000 --> 00:17:16,440 do police who are very different from the community they serve in a highly volatile political 257 00:17:16,440 --> 00:17:26,520 environment do their job with a degree of professionalism, a conviction about the sanctity of human 258 00:17:26,520 --> 00:17:33,800 life and ideals that relate to the area of diversity. 259 00:17:33,800 --> 00:17:36,000 So I get to see that firsthand. 260 00:17:36,000 --> 00:17:40,360 How does it relate to the idea of love for enemies? 261 00:17:40,360 --> 00:17:43,920 It does not at all. 262 00:17:43,920 --> 00:17:50,960 Because when we, when I always tell the repruss that I train here in Boston, you are a person, 263 00:17:50,960 --> 00:17:53,680 a man and woman of the badge. 264 00:17:53,680 --> 00:17:57,320 You are not a man or a woman of the gun. 265 00:17:57,320 --> 00:18:03,840 And by that I mean your job is to honor the city that hired you and to protect the people 266 00:18:03,840 --> 00:18:06,200 who are in the city. 267 00:18:06,200 --> 00:18:11,800 Your job is not to go out and to use this power, this strange tool that we've given 268 00:18:11,800 --> 00:18:15,840 you that is designed to hurt people. 269 00:18:15,840 --> 00:18:16,840 Your job is not that. 270 00:18:16,840 --> 00:18:21,800 And I think they understand that more than any other generation of police ever. 271 00:18:21,800 --> 00:18:26,120 So what I say, it does not relate to love of enemies. 272 00:18:26,120 --> 00:18:30,880 The people that police officers serve are not their enemies. 273 00:18:30,880 --> 00:18:34,560 We're not going and working in a hostile state. 274 00:18:34,560 --> 00:18:40,280 We're going, I love to go back to the neighborhood that I'm from. 275 00:18:40,280 --> 00:18:41,840 I love to do that. 276 00:18:41,840 --> 00:18:48,320 I love to drive around the streets of this, of the inner city in Boston because I understand 277 00:18:48,320 --> 00:18:49,560 it. 278 00:18:49,560 --> 00:18:51,200 And I love those people. 279 00:18:51,200 --> 00:18:52,200 I do. 280 00:18:52,200 --> 00:18:53,200 I love those people. 281 00:18:53,200 --> 00:18:58,280 So I want to train the recruits that I'm training to love those people. 282 00:18:58,280 --> 00:19:02,160 I tell them, go out there, meet them, try the food. 283 00:19:02,160 --> 00:19:04,440 It's awesome. 284 00:19:04,440 --> 00:19:08,600 And you know, sometimes I'll ask, sir, what about this particular food? 285 00:19:08,600 --> 00:19:12,840 And I say, this is the restaurant to go get it because I've had it. 286 00:19:12,840 --> 00:19:20,120 And I think that this job, the job that I'm on, does not have a relationship necessarily 287 00:19:20,120 --> 00:19:24,680 with love of enemies because we're not serving enemies. 288 00:19:24,680 --> 00:19:29,040 We are serving fellow citizens and protecting them. 289 00:19:29,040 --> 00:19:36,880 What's interesting about that to me is when you read the passage where Jesus says, you 290 00:19:36,880 --> 00:19:40,960 know, you've heard it said, love your neighbor, hate your enemy. 291 00:19:40,960 --> 00:19:46,840 When he says, but I tell you, love your enemy, that's almost what he's saying. 292 00:19:46,840 --> 00:19:51,120 What he's saying is that love negates enmity. 293 00:19:51,120 --> 00:19:55,280 That if you love your enemy, then guess what? 294 00:19:55,280 --> 00:19:57,040 That's no longer your enemy. 295 00:19:57,040 --> 00:19:59,960 It's the opposite of what enmity is. 296 00:19:59,960 --> 00:20:01,320 Love is the opposite of enmity. 297 00:20:01,320 --> 00:20:07,560 So if you say, you know, love your enemies, then you have canceled out enmity. 298 00:20:07,560 --> 00:20:08,560 Yeah. 299 00:20:08,560 --> 00:20:11,800 And love makes work feel like service. 300 00:20:11,800 --> 00:20:14,760 Love, it just changes it, right? 301 00:20:14,760 --> 00:20:18,120 If Van's my brother, right? 302 00:20:18,120 --> 00:20:22,000 And if Van called me and said, hey, sport, that's what he calls me. 303 00:20:22,000 --> 00:20:31,280 Hey, sport, can you help me to remove a refrigerator from the apartment I used to live in? 304 00:20:31,280 --> 00:20:32,280 In Hyde Park? 305 00:20:32,280 --> 00:20:39,720 I mean, in Roxbury to the new house that we have down south somewhere. 306 00:20:39,720 --> 00:20:40,720 And I did that. 307 00:20:40,720 --> 00:20:42,680 First of all, I have to say, oh, my back is hurting. 308 00:20:42,680 --> 00:20:43,680 I'm 57 years old. 309 00:20:43,680 --> 00:20:44,680 So I say, my back is hurting. 310 00:20:44,680 --> 00:20:45,680 My legs are hurting. 311 00:20:45,680 --> 00:20:47,200 Let's call some young people like Tim. 312 00:20:47,200 --> 00:20:48,200 That's very fictional. 313 00:20:48,200 --> 00:20:51,040 Like Tim over here to help us. 314 00:20:51,040 --> 00:20:56,640 But if I did it, it would feel like service to my brother. 315 00:20:56,640 --> 00:20:59,360 So that's what I teach recruits. 316 00:20:59,360 --> 00:21:02,400 These people are great, love the people. 317 00:21:02,400 --> 00:21:03,800 And they're beginning to do it. 318 00:21:03,800 --> 00:21:10,400 This is so much in line with what we've been covering, with how our hearts should be open 319 00:21:10,400 --> 00:21:18,360 to other people, how we should be having our aim be toward Jesus and imitating him and 320 00:21:18,360 --> 00:21:25,200 loving other people, deciding I've loved them and acting on that. 321 00:21:25,200 --> 00:21:27,040 This is really great. 322 00:21:27,040 --> 00:21:35,640 I wonder if we have time to start looking at the lie here that Jesus is addressing. 323 00:21:35,640 --> 00:21:36,920 Let's spend a little bit of time here. 324 00:21:36,920 --> 00:21:42,480 So the teachers of the law were evidently telling people, what you just read there, 325 00:21:42,480 --> 00:21:46,880 Van, that it's fine to hate your enemies. 326 00:21:46,880 --> 00:21:50,280 That's not what the Bible teaches, though, is it? 327 00:21:50,280 --> 00:21:51,520 I mean, I don't know. 328 00:21:51,520 --> 00:21:53,360 Some people point to the imprecatory psalms. 329 00:21:53,360 --> 00:21:58,640 You know, the ones where, smite my enemies, you know, the ones where they call on God 330 00:21:58,640 --> 00:22:03,720 to judge the people's enemies as an example of hating your enemies. 331 00:22:03,720 --> 00:22:06,560 But that's not what Jesus is saying here. 332 00:22:06,560 --> 00:22:09,120 That's not the way to interpret those psalms. 333 00:22:09,120 --> 00:22:14,520 What's the danger in telling people you can love your neighbors and hate your enemies? 334 00:22:14,520 --> 00:22:15,520 This lie. 335 00:22:15,520 --> 00:22:16,520 Yeah. 336 00:22:16,520 --> 00:22:23,160 I mean, the main thought that I have from this is the lie is that we are not like Jesus. 337 00:22:23,160 --> 00:22:30,800 And in John 12, Jesus says, you know, the hour has come for the Son of Man to be glorified. 338 00:22:30,800 --> 00:22:34,440 Very truly I tell you, unless a kernel of wheat falls to the ground and dies, it remains 339 00:22:34,440 --> 00:22:35,920 only a single seed. 340 00:22:35,920 --> 00:22:38,280 But if it dies, it produces many seeds. 341 00:22:38,280 --> 00:22:39,760 Anyone who loves their life will lose it. 342 00:22:39,760 --> 00:22:43,160 While anyone who hates their life in this world will keep it for eternal life. 343 00:22:43,160 --> 00:22:47,800 Whoever serves me must follow me, and where I am, my servant also will be. 344 00:22:47,800 --> 00:22:52,560 And Jesus clearly said an example for loving our enemies, right? 345 00:22:52,560 --> 00:22:53,880 When we were all his enemies. 346 00:22:53,880 --> 00:23:02,560 He died for us when he's getting spat on and his clothes are being gambled for. 347 00:23:02,560 --> 00:23:06,280 He's saying forgive them for they don't know what they're doing. 348 00:23:06,280 --> 00:23:09,360 And he calls us to follow in his footsteps. 349 00:23:09,360 --> 00:23:15,360 And so if we say, oh, I can hate my enemy, we're saying, oh, Jesus did it, but I don't 350 00:23:15,360 --> 00:23:16,840 need to. 351 00:23:16,840 --> 00:23:24,080 And I think Jesus makes the point that I'm living this way and I call you to do the same. 352 00:23:24,080 --> 00:23:27,000 I call you to imitate my example. 353 00:23:27,000 --> 00:23:30,760 He's come to fulfill the law and he certainly did. 354 00:23:30,760 --> 00:23:33,280 I, do you want to say something? 355 00:23:33,280 --> 00:23:34,280 Yeah. 356 00:23:34,280 --> 00:23:37,520 You know, I've thought a lot about this as well. 357 00:23:37,520 --> 00:23:43,800 And when people are trying to get you to hate somebody else, when people are insisting 358 00:23:43,800 --> 00:23:48,520 that you hate somebody else, there's always something in it for them. 359 00:23:48,520 --> 00:23:51,480 And typically it's, it's power. 360 00:23:51,480 --> 00:23:57,920 It's relational power, it's financial power, it's social power that when people present 361 00:23:57,920 --> 00:24:05,640 another group as something to be feared, they're not looking, they're looking for something 362 00:24:05,640 --> 00:24:06,640 for self. 363 00:24:06,640 --> 00:24:10,680 It's, it's a very, it's a very secular idea. 364 00:24:10,680 --> 00:24:15,240 It's very human, of course, because we're tribal, right? 365 00:24:15,240 --> 00:24:17,240 And the tribe gets stronger. 366 00:24:17,240 --> 00:24:23,240 People have this impression of tribes that they get stronger when their walls are stronger, 367 00:24:23,240 --> 00:24:28,320 when they have more fear, when all the arrows are pointed outward. 368 00:24:28,320 --> 00:24:35,400 So I think that the Pharisees here in this passage were being human beings and of course 369 00:24:35,400 --> 00:24:37,200 un-Christ-like. 370 00:24:37,200 --> 00:24:44,120 And they were, they wanted the Jews to hate the occupying force because where would they 371 00:24:44,120 --> 00:24:45,120 turn? 372 00:24:45,120 --> 00:24:46,120 Oh, to the temple. 373 00:24:46,120 --> 00:24:47,880 Where would they turn? 374 00:24:47,880 --> 00:24:52,120 They would turn inward and they would point all the arrows outward. 375 00:24:52,120 --> 00:24:56,320 And it might get the Pharisees to be cast in a more positive light if they had a common 376 00:24:56,320 --> 00:24:57,320 enemy. 377 00:24:57,320 --> 00:24:58,320 Well, that's interesting. 378 00:24:58,320 --> 00:24:59,320 I didn't thought about that. 379 00:24:59,320 --> 00:25:00,320 But you're right. 380 00:25:00,320 --> 00:25:04,200 What you were just saying reminded me, so my background in architecture and planning 381 00:25:04,200 --> 00:25:09,240 made me think of China a little bit and the Wutong housing. 382 00:25:09,240 --> 00:25:15,280 So their whole country is a wall, it's got the Great Wall, but then you go down at scale 383 00:25:15,280 --> 00:25:19,280 and you get down to the forbidden city, right? 384 00:25:19,280 --> 00:25:20,280 That's walled off. 385 00:25:20,280 --> 00:25:21,280 Everything's walled off. 386 00:25:21,280 --> 00:25:23,720 You got cities that are walled off, the whole country's walled off, and then you get down 387 00:25:23,720 --> 00:25:24,840 to the household. 388 00:25:24,840 --> 00:25:28,840 And that's set up like a courtyard with the walls on the outside and you had different 389 00:25:28,840 --> 00:25:29,840 entrances. 390 00:25:29,840 --> 00:25:32,880 So everything is like to keep out, to protect. 391 00:25:32,880 --> 00:25:36,120 And you're right. 392 00:25:36,120 --> 00:25:43,960 There is a, I think, a long history of you can other someone and then you're stronger. 393 00:25:43,960 --> 00:25:44,960 Yeah. 394 00:25:44,960 --> 00:25:57,480 Yeah, I think that the problem with hating anybody is hate and love are both virulent. 395 00:25:57,480 --> 00:25:59,760 They're both contagious. 396 00:25:59,760 --> 00:26:08,760 CS Lewis calls Christianity the good infection, because when you live it, when you live it 397 00:26:08,760 --> 00:26:19,200 out, it spreads in a way that is mysterious and swift and all of a sudden it's just spreading. 398 00:26:19,200 --> 00:26:21,960 But hatred is the same way. 399 00:26:21,960 --> 00:26:31,560 And just like if I had a very contagious disease and sitting here and told you guys, 400 00:26:31,560 --> 00:26:35,680 I have this very contagious disease and you've all been sitting in this room with me for 401 00:26:35,680 --> 00:26:40,480 at least an hour, you're all probably going to get it. 402 00:26:40,480 --> 00:26:43,000 Thanks for telling me that. 403 00:26:43,000 --> 00:26:47,360 But that's nothing that I can really, I can't control it. 404 00:26:47,360 --> 00:26:52,840 I can't come into the room and say, I really hate Matt Brownell and I want to give him 405 00:26:52,840 --> 00:26:55,280 this disease that I have. 406 00:26:55,280 --> 00:26:56,280 Here, let's swap. 407 00:26:56,280 --> 00:26:58,880 Because now I could do that. 408 00:26:58,880 --> 00:27:03,960 But you know, then I might give it to Brian Fisher and Little Levi too. 409 00:27:03,960 --> 00:27:08,120 I love those guys because you can't control it. 410 00:27:08,120 --> 00:27:10,480 It's virulent. 411 00:27:10,480 --> 00:27:15,280 It's something that, and I agree with what you were saying, Darryl, it's something that 412 00:27:15,280 --> 00:27:19,920 when somebody wants you to hate somebody, there's something in it for them and there 413 00:27:19,920 --> 00:27:23,320 is something behind it. 414 00:27:23,320 --> 00:27:26,600 When you hate somebody, there's always something behind it. 415 00:27:26,600 --> 00:27:30,360 But when you release it, there's no way to control it. 416 00:27:30,360 --> 00:27:32,120 The same is true for love. 417 00:27:32,120 --> 00:27:35,240 When you love somebody, you don't want to contain that anyway. 418 00:27:35,240 --> 00:27:37,440 You can't contain it or it's not love. 419 00:27:37,440 --> 00:27:41,680 And as soon as you let it out, it's not like you have a limited supply of it. 420 00:27:41,680 --> 00:27:45,480 It keeps coming out and it just spreads. 421 00:27:45,480 --> 00:27:50,000 I like what you were saying too earlier about love. 422 00:27:50,000 --> 00:27:55,920 And then once you love someone, they're not your enemy anymore. 423 00:27:55,920 --> 00:28:00,560 When I was thinking about this, I thought about the Good Samaritan parable because it 424 00:28:00,560 --> 00:28:05,880 feels like when you look at this statement that they were teaching, you can love your 425 00:28:05,880 --> 00:28:07,600 neighbor but hate your enemy. 426 00:28:07,600 --> 00:28:12,760 Well, the most natural question is to say, well, who's my neighbor? 427 00:28:12,760 --> 00:28:14,040 Who do I get to love? 428 00:28:14,040 --> 00:28:18,680 And it makes the law this real squishy thing, right, where I can choose, well, that guy 429 00:28:18,680 --> 00:28:20,080 treated me like dirt. 430 00:28:20,080 --> 00:28:21,960 Nah, he's my enemy now. 431 00:28:21,960 --> 00:28:23,520 And I can treat him like dirt too. 432 00:28:23,520 --> 00:28:26,560 And it just is the opposite. 433 00:28:26,560 --> 00:28:33,640 And Jesus totally upends all of that with the Good Samaritan, you know, for the guy 434 00:28:33,640 --> 00:28:35,280 who wanted to justify himself. 435 00:28:35,280 --> 00:28:37,280 Who's my neighbor? 436 00:28:37,280 --> 00:28:40,840 But it's the one who showed mercy. 437 00:28:40,840 --> 00:28:41,840 Wow. 438 00:28:41,840 --> 00:28:45,480 I can't believe how we've been talking. 439 00:28:45,480 --> 00:28:46,840 This is such an interesting topic. 440 00:28:46,840 --> 00:28:50,280 Let's have some more episodes on this one. 441 00:28:50,280 --> 00:28:51,280 Thank you guys. 442 00:28:51,280 --> 00:28:52,280 Thanks. 443 00:28:52,280 --> 00:29:08,280 Thank you.