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Hey, I'm Matt Brownell.

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And I'm Van Owens.

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And I'm Tim Adams.

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Welcome to Climbing the Mountain, where we dive into the scriptures and discuss themes,

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connections, and real life application.

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We're kicking off a series here where we're going to examine the Sermon on the Mount and

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discuss implications for this teaching for Christians today.

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In the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus teaches us God's heart.

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The religious rulers and teachers of his day had perverted the law, creating loopholes

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to get out of following it.

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As a result, they effectively became lawbreakers.

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Jesus chose six examples of their false teaching, the ways they relaxed God's standards and

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dismantled each.

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The first two were examples of the law being narrowed.

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Anger and lust are in our hearts before we ever act.

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And the law judges these thoughts and feelings or passions just as it does our actions.

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The next two are examples of how the Pharisees and teachers of the law had relaxed the law

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through clever lawyering.

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They took a sentence or a phrase from the law and used it in a way that ignored the

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context and actual meaning of God's word.

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In response, Jesus reminds them of the overall context, marriage is a sacred commitment not

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so easily dissolved, and we should be completely truthful in all our dealings.

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So that's the backdrop of the following passage, another false teaching of his day.

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Tim, do you want to read it?

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Sure.

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Matthew 5.38-42 says, You have heard that it was said, eye for eye.

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And tooth for tooth.

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But I tell you, do not resist an evil person.

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If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other also.

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If anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, hand over your coat as well.

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If anyone forces you to go one mile, go with them two miles.

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Give to the one who asks you and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from

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you.

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So the topic Jesus is addressing is retaliation or urge to get even.

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But it's more too.

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It's about the quality and aim of our hearts, how we should think and feel in a positive

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sense.

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I think the first place I want to start is the false teaching.

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So what's wrong with eye for an eye and tooth for tooth?

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This is the phrase Jesus says his audience heard.

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So there's something about this phrase that we can infer was false.

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But this saying is directly lifted from Exodus 21:24, Leviticus 24:20 and Deuteronomy 19:21

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There's three books of the Torah.

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Do you think Jesus is saying there was something wrong with the first covenant and he's here

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to fix it and restore something to God's actual ideal?

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Or do you think these passages of law were being misapplied in some way?

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Well, the short answer to that for me is I don't know.

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This is another one that is really a challenge for me.

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And I always go back to the statement that Jesus made when he says, I didn't come to negate

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the law, but to fulfill it.

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And that the intention of this law has been, by the time Jesus is delivering this sermon,

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the intention of this law has been adulterated in some way and has become something that

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people use to exact vengeance or to punish in some way that he considered unjust.

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That's where I've landed with it, that the original intent of this law was for justice

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and that it's somehow been perverted in a way that violates justice.

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Yeah.

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Matt, I'm actually really curious how you see this.

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I was going to just jump in, but I know normally we just do the rounds.

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Yeah, no, I do you want me to go for it?

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So I don't think Jesus is saying, oh, that eye for eye thing, that was terrible.

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Let me show you something better.

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I think that would be odd, an odd way of looking at it because I think it would mean that Jesus

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is negating the very law his mission was to fulfill.

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So I'm taking the position, I assume it was being misapplied.

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And I think that's what we find too.

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The false teaching Jesus was addressing his day dealt with an unlawful extension or expansion

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of what was a public law into a private venue.

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So this is what I, when I was looking at those passages that I referenced, Exodus 21 was

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one of them.

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So you remember when we, like a few sessions ago, we were talking about the Pharisees and

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how they had a pattern of doing this.

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In Matthew 15, we looked at how they had taken this ceremonial washing and that was reserved

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for priests before their sacrifice at the altar, applied it to the private family

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life at the dinner table.

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So that wasn't the only example of how they unlawfully applied the law, how they extended

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it into areas that it didn't directly apply.

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The passages that I referenced from the Torah deal with public laws for judges to administer

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in a court.

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In fact, the courts mentioned in just the prior sentence in Exodus 21, the Pharisees

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and teachers of law took these verses and applied them to private dealings though, which

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is totally the opposite of how eye for an eye is supposed to work.

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By taking it out of the courts, they turned average people into vigilantes, right?

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The whole situation runs completely contrary to the whole point of justice and rule of

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law.

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We're not to take matters into our own hands.

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Hey, coincidentally, I don't know if you've ever seen that bumper sticker, you know, an

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Eye for an eye makes the whole world blind.

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Well, I mean, it's clever, but it's completely missing the point of what eye for an eye is.

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This is a Lex Tellianus, the law of retaliation.

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It's an ancient principle that limited what a court could penalize any offender to something

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fair.

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So, for instance, if he stole a loaf of bread, you can have your hand chopped off.

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The whole point of eye for an eye is fairness and limiting judgment.

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You've probably heard a recent variation of this.

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The punishment must fit the crime.

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It goes both ways.

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You can't lose a hand for stealing, but if you kill someone, a slap on the wrists isn't

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going to cut it either.

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This idea gets to one of the central tenets of the law that Jesus called the weightier

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things, justice, mercy, and faith.

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God loves justice.

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Most importantly, though, for what Jesus was addressing here, it's something you find

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in a court of law.

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It's not a principle to be exacted in private life.

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And I think that's the problem Jesus was addressing.

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The Pharisees were applying a public law to private life, which is the same mistake the

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bumper sticker makes.

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And I mean, to be fair, it's an easy assumption to make.

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Our desire for revenge is baked into us.

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It's really strong.

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You injured me.

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I've got a right to exact my pound of flesh.

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God's law puts the matter of dispute to be decided by a fair and impartial judge who

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applies a fair measure of retribution.

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So when that sentence is meted out in a court of law, justice is supposed to be served and

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the matter resolved.

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Yeah, I think that's a great explanation, and it is very helpful to distinguish what

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are we doing in our private lives versus what happens in a court of law.

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I think we'll talk about that in probably a much greater length later on when we wrestle

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with the obvious question there is basically like, what can Christians be involved in those

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situations if we're called to love our enemies?

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But I think we'll hit that in another episode.

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So taking it to what we're talking about now, one of the simple ways I think about it is

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the old law, the old covenant, when it speaks for the eye for the eye, it's talking about

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justice, right?

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That justice needs to be served and there shouldn't be, having too much of a punishment

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is not just, having too small of a punishment is not just, but that justice is not opposed

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to goodness, right?

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God is both just and He is good.

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And I think we can all recognize that if someone has done something unfair to me, I mean, this

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is going to, as it happens on court of law occasionally, and it's always really incredible

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when it does, right?

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Someone is hurt.

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I think there was an example where basically this child was hit by a stray gunshot, right?

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And they caught the guy and he's in court and she's like, I forgive you, right?

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Like I don't have anything against you.

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She just had the spirit of gratitude for her life, not for the horrible thing that happened,

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but she didn't say, I'm going to shoot you now, right?

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And that is goodness, right?

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And I think that's one of the key things that Jesus is calling us to rather than this retaliatory

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first mindset of, I've got to get even.

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He's calling us to a higher standard where it's like, well, someone might have done you

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wrong.

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Someone might be actively doing you wrong in the moment.

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But that doesn't mean that you need to get back to them.

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You can rise above that.

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Yeah.

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And it's, I think the Lex Tellianus sets a limit, but it doesn't mean that you have

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to go to that limit either.

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I mean, I think it's important that justice is served.

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But I like what you were saying about how our attitudes should be toward others.

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And I think especially in the realm of interpersonal relationships, we should not tit for tat kind

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of retaliate.

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Our heart should not be bent toward, I got to get even.

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That's not fair.

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He did this to me.

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Again, I think about my kids because it comes out so much.

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He's touching me.

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That's my toy.

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Don't do that.

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Stop it.

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It's my turn.

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That's not fair.

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You know, all the, it's so, I mean, this is such a, it's so deep within us from childhood.

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Well, and the fact that, so you take the fact that all have sinned and fallen short of the

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glory of God.

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All of us.

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Every single one.

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So which of us has a right to get vengeance from which of us for what?

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If we're all in the same boat, you know, it's that scripture in Romans 12,:19, it

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says, beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God.

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Whatever it has written, vengeance is mine, I will repay says the Lord that that's something

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that we just don't need to venture into because when you venture into that, then you're quantifying

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righteousness.

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If I say that I need to take, you took my hat.

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So and that was wrong.

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You stole my hat.

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So I'm going to steal your jacket.

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That's me saying you're stealing my hat is equal to my stealing your jacket.

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I have, I'm more righteous than you are because you took my thing.

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Now I get to take your, you're quantifying something that can't be quantified by anybody,

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but God.

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And it doesn't, it doesn't help stop the problem in the first place and, and dealing with the,

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again, I think Jesus is dealing with the heart issue.

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And I think maybe this is a good place to start talking about this antithetical statement

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that he makes, right?

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He says, but I say, and he says, we're not to resist an evil person.

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This is a really challenging statement.

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It can seem difficult to apply, especially when people I love are also in harm's way.

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So now this is a classical hypothetical, but let's, let's dive into it.

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Consider a thief breaking into your house to steal something and he's got a knife.

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What do you do?

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What if he attacks you or your wife?

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So I think I'm a little unusual in that I argued with my, one of my best friends about

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this when we were eighth grade.

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Like that's one of the ways became friends as we argued about this idea and the subject

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of baptism.

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So that's weird, but that's who I was.

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So in eighth grade, seventh and eighth grade.

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So anyways.

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Big man on campus.

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I know.

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That's not exactly the way to like get super popular.

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But, but yeah, so I mean the, this hypothetical situation is one that is, gets to right to

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the core of this topic and it does so by kind of taking things to the extreme, but it's

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very natural to go here because when, when Jesus says don't resist an evil person, what's

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the first thing that we all feel?

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We feel fear.

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What if I get taken advantage of?

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What if I get hurt?

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What if things don't go right?

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And there's, there's so much I could say about this.

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I think my one line answer to the question is that I would prayerfully,

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if I, if I act in a way that's in accordance with my convictions, which I wrestle with,

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it could I actually do this?

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But I would want to be in a place where I would be able to treat this thief, treat

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this person who is threatening myself and my family recognizing this is someone who is

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also creating the image of God who is, I have no right to take this person's life or harm

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this person and instead I'm going to treat this person with love and that's scary.

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It puts me at a physical disadvantage.

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And I'll read, I'll read one scripture that I think it's kind of another hypothetical

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situation but it's one that Peter addresses and it kind of gets to a similar thing and

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it points to the example of Jesus in these moments.

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In 1 Peter 2 18-25, it says, slaves in reverent fear of God submit yourselves

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to your masters, not only to those who are good and considerate, but also to those who

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are harsh.

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For it is commendable if someone bears up under the pain of unjust suffering because

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they are conscious of God.

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But how is it to your credit if you receive a beating for doing wrong and endure it?

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But if you suffer for doing good and you endure it, this is commendable before God.

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To this you are called because Christ suffered for you, leaving you an example that you should

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follow in his steps.

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He committed no sin and no deceit was found in his mouth.

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When they hurled their insults at him, he did not retaliate.

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When he suffered, he made no threats.

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Instead he entrusted himself to him who judges justly.

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He himself bore our sins in his body on the cross so that we might die to sins and live

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for righteousness by his wounds you have been healed.

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For you were like sheep going astray, but now you have returned to the shepherd and overseer

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of your souls.

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It's easy to make Jesus in this example, in this area of our life.

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It's easy to make him like, oh, I'm glad that Jesus died so I don't have to.

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But I do think at the crux of it that Peter is explicitly calling on slaves in this context

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to undergo potentially very difficult treatment where they had harsh masters.

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He points to Jesus as an example of someone who suffered wrong even though he had done

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no wrong and that he didn't retaliate.

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That feels to me very in line with what Jesus is saying here, don't resist an evil person.

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It's really one of the most challenging things that he says.

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If what I understand is correct.

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What do you think, Van?

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This is a really, really hard one.

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The thing about these, as we're digging deeper into the Sermon on the Mount, on the surface

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of things when I just look at the Sermon on the Mount, the most challenging stuff is the

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stuff about lust, the stuff about equating lust with adultery.

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That kind of thing on the surface is what I'm afraid of when I read the passage.

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But then when I dig into it and I see passages like the last conversation we had about, yes

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and no.

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And now this one, it's really difficult because it goes counter to just about everything that

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I've ever thought or learned in my life about manhood is that a man doesn't let another

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man abuse him and a man certainly doesn't let another man abuse his loved ones.

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And so it's really difficult.

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And I have in my past looked for loopholes.

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What about, what if this did happen to me?

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What would I do?

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And the conclusion that I've come to similar to yours, Tim, is that I would want to be

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in a place where I could treat that person with love.

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I could think of them as another soul, as another sinner who needs help, and that I

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could not resist them.

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But I will be honest with you and tell you it's really hard for me to think of somebody

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doing something to my wife or my son or my daughter and me just standing there and letting

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them do it.

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And I know that it gets at, you know, and I appreciate the passage that you read, Tim,

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because it begins to get at the suffering and not only the fact that suffering exists,

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but that there's value in suffering, that there's a connection between suffering and

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salvation, obviously with Jesus.

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And that would this, would God ever call me to suffer in that way?

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And if he did, would I be able to submit to it?

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Would I be able to be like Jesus was?

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It's a really difficult one, though.

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Yeah, this is a hard one.

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I've gone back and forth on this, trying to figure out, well, what do I actually believe?

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And I think it was helpful for me when I was studying this to go back to what is he addressing

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here, which was taking this public law and applying it to private life thing.

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Because I think in this, it is a classic hypothetical, right?

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And I liked what you shared, and I totally agree with you, Tim, about what Jesus' example

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is, right, that when he was insulted, he didn't retaliate.

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That's what we're talking about here, in the interpersonal kind of things.

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And even in that situation, it's a special one, because here he is, government is subjecting

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him to torture and capital punishment unjustly.

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And in that society, Peter was addressing slaves who would treat their masters.

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This is a different situation than two people, same power, dynamic, same, you know, there's

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no like, they're not your boss or whatever, or a government official doing something to

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you, you have no control over.

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We're supposed to respect authority in a sense, I think, from what I see in here, even if

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it's authority that is bad, because we're called to pray for our leaders that, you know,

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and I think when that was written, it was written about Nero, probably, out of his mind,

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killing Christians.

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So I think there's nuance to this, in the particular subject of this classic hypothetical,

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the way I think of it is, it's helpful to go back to the law, and in Exodus 22, verse

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2, we read about a case of a thief breaking in at night, and the law assumes we will defend

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ourselves.

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And it says that if we accidentally kill the intruder, it's not committed, it's not considered

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murder.

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And so I think the sixth command, injunction not to murder places value not only on other

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people's lives, but also our own.

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So I read that as the law making some assumption about how we would defend ourselves and defend

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loved ones in a situation like that.

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And I think you see that reflected in today's courts too, where they continue to recognize

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that manslaughter resulting from true self-defense is not a crime.

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And I think we get more about this intent with the example that Jesus gives with if

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someone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to him the other.

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I think there is a heart of turning the other cheek, but what does that mean?

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When I think about it, and I, so I go to the UFC gym and I take my kids there and I used

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to be into wrestling and stuff, and now they're doing kickboxing and, you know, different martial

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arts things.

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And, and I want to go out on the mat so bad because I love wrestling and things.

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And I know if I do, I will hurt myself.

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So not in shape.

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But what's helpful for me to think about is if you threw your, most people are right-handed.

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So if you want to really do some damage, you, you throw your right hand and, and where is

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that going to land on your opponent?

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They're left.

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Right.

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Side.

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What he's talking about here is someone striking you on the right cheek.

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If you're using your dominant hand, that's a back-handed slap.

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That's not intended to cause harm as much as insult.

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And what I found interesting is you go back through some of the rabbinical sources on this

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and they talk about that.

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They talk about what, and greater offense this would be to get this back-handed slap,

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this dishonoring, insulting slap and how, what you could do, how you could sue someone

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for that.

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Because it's an honor culture.

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It's an honor culture.

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That's a huge thing.

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Yeah.

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And so I think what he's addressing here is more insult rather than assault.

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And so in that situation, yeah, we were supposed to turn the other cheek.

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We're supposed to have a absorbing meek character that looks at someone in love.

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Which is also hard.

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It's very hard.

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You know, if you take the scenario of somebody breaks in your house and is going to do harm

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to your family, that, yes, that's very hard.

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But someone slaps you or someone in my youth, I had somebody spit on me.

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Now somebody spitting on you, barring that maybe they had COVID or something, doesn't

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really do much physical harm to you.

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It's the shame of it is really difficult to bear.

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And just really, I mean, and again, in the way that I was raised, I think in a way that

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a lot of American men are raised is not something you put up with.

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You would, it merits physical retaliation in some ways.

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And so even when we talk about it being a thing of honor, it puts it in a different light,

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but it's still really hard because what it offends is my pride, my sense of who I am,

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my manhood, my reputation, all these things that we can really value as human beings.

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And I think, but they have a different value when we think of ourselves as spiritual beings,

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as Christians, as sons of God, that what does it matter if somebody slaps and gives

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me a backhanded slap across the cheek to my soul and to his?

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It's still a really difficult thing.

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Yeah, and that happens much more often.

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It's true.

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At least here in our current society that we're speaking to, that people are treating

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me with spite, that people are trying to take advantage of me, that what's the other example?

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I think taking advantage summarizes two of those examples.

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And if we come from a mindset of, I cannot lose my pride, I cannot lose my physical

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goods, I cannot lose my time, and anything you take from me is an assault on who I am.

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Take the insult as an assault, and that's how you think about it, then we can't embody

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what Jesus is saying here.

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Jesus is saying, don't resist this evil person.

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And I think probably the last thing I'll say before we close for this episode is, because

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I think we'll talk about the use of force continually through the next few verses, but

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Van, you talked about the idea of, you use the phrase of doing nothing while you watch

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this horrible thing happen to your family.

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And we can discuss it in greater depth, but what I see from Jesus is a lot of things,

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but what I don't see is someone who does nothing.

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And in this we have a negative thing, do not resist an evil person, but Jesus never ends

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there.

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He never ends with the negative.

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There's always an affirmative, and I think by embodying this command, we don't become

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shells of who we are, and we don't have to empty ourselves of our manhood or our humanity

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or whatever is relevant to you.

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We don't need to empty the mother or the father or the brother or sister, that is, each of

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us, there's a truer humanity that Jesus is trying to point us to, a fuller embodiment

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of who we as individuals and who we can be as a society and what it would look like for

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the kingdom of God to come.

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And that starts with not resisting an evil person, but just as Jesus' example will talk

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about, it doesn't end there.

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Yeah, yeah, I like what you're saying about pride, love is not proud, right?

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That's something that, you know, it's not easily angered, and I love this, instead we

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should, you're right, do the, instead of just not doing the bad, we should even go above

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and beyond, open ourselves up to further insult, which is like blow my mind kind of thing,

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if it's warranted, right?

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This is a good place to end.

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This is a great discussion.

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We'll pick it up next time.